Well, though I don't know nothing about these markers, that may mean something. Apart from that do you have any connection with the Drummonds? I also have Sousas from Calheta, but as they proceed from Afonsos from Calheta (17 th century) I can+t link them yet to older Sousas. On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:44 PM, JAndrade1 <[email protected]> wrote: > Interestingly, it seems my paternal line is Sousa, the Andrade coming > in through marriage. Now, I have had both a 37-marker Y-DNA and an mt- > DNA test done by familytreeDNA.com and the closest matches (36/37) in > the Y-DNA test were not to any of the Portuguese groups but to > English/Irish surnames. Maybe this is because of this Sousa link? > > On Dec 4, 2009, at 11:09 AM, Fernandes, Jose wrote: > > Anyway, this is our Irish link! In part it would explain why Jerónimo > comes to Caniço and marries a Sá, a whose daughter marries a Burgos > and granddaughter marries a Viana de Cairos. And this is just my family! > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:prt-madeira- > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 10:56 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) > > OK. I retrieved the Sousas from Ribeira Grande, > Miguel de Castro Henriques to prt-madeira > show details Jan 22 > > To all who descend from the Burgos, > > Manuel César Furtado, a genealogist who knows a lot about Açores > genealogy > and medieval genealogy, kindly sent me this. > > Check the names in bold. > > Remember that Jerónimo de Sousa's, from Ribeira Grande, S.Miguel, > Açores, ( > m. Maria de Sá) parents were Simão Martins and Leonor de Sousa. > > It might be possible that Leonor Manuel is the mother of our Leonor > de Sousa. > Cronologically and topologically it's quite fitting. > > > Then Simoa Martins married to Pedro Jorge and owner of a land with > "foro" > could be the mother of Simâo Martins, husband of Leonor de Sousa. > > > > > > > CAPÍTULO 132.º > DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE IREZA DE SOUSA > § 1.º > 1 - Ireza de Sousa, natural da Irlanda, no dizer de Frutuoso, e dama da > rainha D. Leonor (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § I). Casou em > Portugal com > um fidalgo, cujo nome Frutuoso não soube, o qual era morador em Souzel, > donde veio para a Ilha de S. Miguel por matar um corregedor, fixando > residência com sua mulher em Vila Franca e depois no Telhal da Lomba da > Ribeira Grande. Ireza de Sousa e seu marido vieram para esta Ilha no > tempo > do Capitão Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. > Tiveram: > 2 - João de Sousa, que esteve em África no tempo de el-rei D. Manuel, > onde > foi armado Cavaleiro (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § III e V). Casou com > Isabel Alvares, mulher nobre. > Tiveram: > 3 - Baltazar Vaz de Sousa, foi morador na Ribeira Grande, ao Telhal e > morreu > em Porto Seguro, no Brasil (Vide os seus feitos no Cap.º XXIV do > Livro IV > das Saudades da Terra, e também no Cap.º LXI do mesmo Livro, onde se > vê que > era magarefe). Sua mulher morreu na freguesia da Matriz da Ribeira > Grande a > 13.4.1654 com testamento, sendo testamenteiro seu filho João de > Sousa. Casou > com Leonor Manuel. > Tiveram: > 4 - Nuno de Sousa, Capitão de ordenanças na Ribeira Grande, aí > morador e em > S. Pedro da Ribeira Seca onde morreu a 11.4.1610 (Frutuoso, Livro IV, > Cap.º > XXIV § VIII e Cap.º XLVI § II). De um livro da Misericórdia de Ponta > Delgada > de 1614, consta que os herdeiros de Nuno de Sousa, da Ribeira Grande, > devem > há muito tempo à Misericórdia de Ponta Delgada um foro e são elas as > seguintes: Bárbara de Paiva, Isabel Paim, Madalena de Paiva e Heitor > Fernandes, genro. A terra deste foro tinha sido de Simoa Martins, > mulher de > Pedro Jorge. Casou a primeira vez com Catarina de Moura, irmã do Padre > Antonio de Moura, de Ponta Delgada, a qual morreu na freguesia Matriz da > Ribeira Grande a 20.4.1560 com testamento em que deixa a terça a suas > filhas > e nomeando o marido testamenteiro. Casou a segunda vez com Francisca de > Paiva . > Teve da primeira mulher: > 5 - Jerônima de Sousa, que casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande a > 22.1.1569 com > Brás do Rego Rodovalho. > > CAPÍTULO 18.º > DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE GONÇALO DO REGO, O VELHO > § 1.º > 1 - Gonçalo do Rego, o Velho, veio para S. Miguel no tempo do Capitão > Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. Era natural do Porto e veio de lá > parece > que já viúvo da primeira mulher e com três filhos dela (Frutuoso, > Livro IV, > Cap.º XXII). Casou a segunda vez com Isabel Pires. > Teve do 2.º casamento: > 2 - Manuel do Rego. Casou com Maria Jerônima. > Tiveram: > 3 - Braz do Rego Rodovalho, casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande, a > 22.1.1569, > com Jerônima de Sousa. > Tiveram: > 4 - Gonçalo do Rego de Sousa, que consta do termo de óbito de sua tia > Beatriz de Sousa (falecida em S. Pedro Ribeira Grande a 1.2.1611), de > quem > foi herdeiro. Aí se diz ser filho de Jerônima de Sousa. Faleceu na > Matriz de > Ponta Delgada a 23.10.1659. Casou Maria da Cunha Teixeira, falecida na > Matriz de Ponta Delgada a 10.2.1633, filha de Luís Martins e Isabel da > Cunha. > Tiveram: > 5 - Calisto do Rego e Sousa, batizado na Matriz de Ponta Delgada a > 18.10.1627. Casou em S. Pedro de Ponta Delgada, a 10.2.1649, com Maria > Cabral de Melo. > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel/Cecce > > Re: burgos/viana etc. > > Children of Maria de Cairos marry into all of these families, i.e. > > Viana > > de Cairos etc. At least in my family! > > > > José > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 9:01 AM > > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:06 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > >> Jose said: It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was > >> dropped. His > >> grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I > >> know the > >> Ferreiras, but it seems odd. > >> > >> Miguel said:I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from > > Diogo > >> Dias (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > >> > >> Cece says: Looks like both Diogo and Manuel children decided that > >> their > >> mothers names were "better", because neither became Dias > >> Saldanhas. Diogo > >> Dias son is Antonio Ferreira and Manuel Dias son is Matias Andrade > >> -so > > both > >> took Moms name instead. > >> > >> The point is that both Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias are the sons of > >> Pedro > > Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. So they were really sons of their > > mothers > > and fathers, and legitimate Saldanhas. The Dias comes from the g. > > parent of > > both Diogo and Manuel - Diogo Dias Saldanha, Ouvidor em Machico m. > > to D. > > Mara Catanho, dau, of António Vieira, meirinho, and D. Margarida > > Catanho. > > > > 1.Diogo Saldanha. (Had lands in Santo da Serra,in 149..). > > 1.2. Digo Saldanha. (Build the church in that "freguesia", around > > 1520) > > ..... > > 1.3. Gui or Diogo Ennes Saldanha m. 1558 Isabel Fernandes (Quite > > possibly > > direct descendant of the former), they had: > > 1.4. Diogo Dias Saldanha m. D. Maria Catanho, had from Concórdia > > Fernandes > > (black?): > > 1.5. Pedro Dias Saldanha m. Ana Henriques,had > > 1.6. Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias (Saldanha) > > > > > > > > Matias takes the name from her mother, indeed. The Andrades in that > > time > > was > > a "better" name to use. The Andrades were still on their rise, and the > > Saldanhas beggining their descent. I wonder why they did not use the > > Noronha? But once again in that time the Andrade name supplanted the > > Noronha. > > Manuel Abranches de Soveral, the well known medieval genealogist > > once told > > me that the Henriques name was then prime choice. (Remember that the > > Noronhas were Henriques de Noronha). Only later the Noronha name - > > because > > of the rise of Noronhas to the first rank of nobility . came to be > > foremost. > > > > I know that this may sound a bit far-fetched in your hiper-democratic > > countries. But the name sensitivity in Portugal was enormous. Still > > exists, > > but of course with the spread of education, nowadays the academic > > titles > > count more socially than the historical names. Even só, they still > > carry > > some weight, but nothing compared with former centuries. > > > > Anyway,in the 17 th century (and not only) for the sake of time > > economy > > sometimes the priests dropped the last name. In social use it was more > > simple to be known by name and surname. Or even by name and > > locality cf, > > Tristão da Ilha. João da Ponta. Manuel da Fonte., etc. > > > > > > > >> Jose said: On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e > >> Sousa, > >> Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > >> > >> Cece says-Tome de Burgos is my ancestor and Manuel de Viana (de > >> Caires) > > is > >> his son in law-married to his daughter Antonia. > >> I don't see any familial relationship to Diogo Dias yet, though it > >> may be > >> there - do you? > >> > > > > I don't see any either. Maybe they did not have any. We already > > discussed > > the Burgos, I think. They had a link with the Calaças, And they > > were most > > probably from Spain. > > > > regards, > > > > Miguel > > > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, > >> Jose > >> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:24 AM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > >> > >> Miguel > >> > >> You keep up like this and I am going to have to get part of the > >> family > >> will! > >> > >> I have heard of the Duke but I don't know or remember where Praça de > >> Saldanha in Lisbon is. However, may I accept your invitation, and God > >> willing or "Oxalá que tenhamos boa saúde e tempo" and we shall > >> meet for a > >> celebration. > >> > >> On the Duke you are going to have to work that line for me. > >> It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His grandson > >> António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the > >> Ferreiras, > >> but it seems odd. > >> On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, > >> Manuel > > de > >> Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > >> > >> José, waiting for that manzanillo > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > >> Castro > >> Henriques > >> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:43 AM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > >> > >> Ok. José- > >> > >> So we have one more couple of ancestors in common! > >> > >> > >> The name is Pedro. > >> I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo Dias > >> (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > >> > >> Shall we meet for a coffee and a cup of manzanillo in Praça de > >> Saldanha > > to > >> celebrate? > >> > >> The Duke is still our cousin, after all ; -) > >> > >> Bitório was written according to the Northern (North of Portugal) > >> accent. > >> They still say baca for vaca, bino for vinho. And Bitório for > >> Vitório or > >> Vitorino. > >> > >> So he is Vitório or Vitorino Pires. Though the old and > >> "wrong" (wrong for > >> southerners) Bitório is endearing. > >> > >> Miguel > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > >> [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >>> And... > >>> > >>> On Dias Saldanha ( can't decipher his first name) who married Ana > >>> Henriques, but I can't find that certificate, his son is Diogo Dias > >>> who marries Maria Ferreira in Caniço, 1651, 902, 225V. > >>> > >>> On Filipa Do Quintal, this is how it is spelled in their daughters' > >>> marriage certificate (Ana Pires) how do you spell her husband's > >>> name? > >>> Bitorio or is it an old writing for Victorino? > >>> > >>> José > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found > >> in this > >> incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: > > 12/03/09 > >> 07:32:00 > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >