José, Carlota Joaquina, the wife of Dom João VI, was a Spanish Bourbon. Then in Brazill the Imperial Braganças married with someone from the Orleans, who are a branch of the French Bourbons. (La branche cadette). Then, D. Duarte Pio. our current heir to the Portuguese throne is a descebdant both of the Imperial Brazilian House and the Royal Portuguese House ( through Dom Miguel I). Let's see what we can find about Ana Henriques. You checked ARM, I suppose. Miguel On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 4:26 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > Didn't the Braganças eventually marry into the Bourbons any way? At least > the Brazilian line. > > No, the one who marries Sebastião is a widow I think of Francisco. The one > who marries João must be a second one, in this case.We are not counting the > one married to Pedro. Anyway, there are only about 6 Ana Henriques between > 1580 and 1680, and I know of at least 3 of them and that is not counting the > one married to Pedro Saldanha. Henriques is a common name, but these seem to > be within Caniço or Santa Cruz. > > Let me know what you find out from the baptism certificates. > > José > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 11:07 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) > > José, > > Yes, indeed. The Braganças. For instance of all the sons that D.João VI and > Carlota Joaquina had, only one seems to have been really his son. This > happened during the times of Napoleon, the fiery emperor. In several books > of historians (both brazilian and Portuguese) there are passages inquiring > who might have been the father of Dom Miguel: the gardener? The Marquis of > Marialva? An anon? > > problem with Ana Henriques is that Henriques, is a rather common name. But > I > think the methodology for finding her that you're using is Ok. Check all > the > Ana Henriques of that time (and place, in this case Madeira) and see > whether > one of them is a widow. Because there should exist a register of the > marriage of Pedro Dias and Ana Henriques. > Anyway Ana Henriques and Pedro Dias Saldanha married around 160 and > 1622...) > > So she is certainlyh not the Ana Henriques that marries your ancestor > Sebastião Dias. > > But the second Ana H. married to a Francisco (Francisco who?) could fit, > chronologically speaking. João de Abreu her father could be João de Abreu > Henriques, there were some Abreus Henriques, especially from Cãmara de > Lobos. Paulo being a descendant of these Henriques (I suppose) as well of > the others (the Gomes Henriques) may know something about this. > > I am going to ask for Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias (Saldanha) baptism > certificates. > > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel, > > Let's not forget the Braganças... > > Please let me know if you get anywhere with Ana Henriques. Note that > there > > is a Ana Henriques who is a window by 1662. She marries Sebastião Dias, > > Caniço, 1662, 902, 239vo. I have that certificate, because Sebastião is a > > brother to my ancestor Jorge Dias and my great (7) grandfather Inácio > > Fernandes, if I have got all of this correct!. > > There is a Ana Henriques married to Francisco sometime in 1640's. She > must > > be the same one. She is the daughter of João de Abreu and Angela > Rodrigues. > > I can't find this marriage in Caniço. There is João de Abreu married to > > Angela Lopes in Arco da Calheta in 1617. > > > > Is that Angela, a Lopes de Sá? > > > > In 1676 Sebastião's brother João marries Maria de Santiago who is said to > > be a daughter of Ana Heriques (Francisco is dead at this time) so it > seems > > that it is from her first marriage. > > Our Ana is married to Saldanha sometime in 1625. Can you make a > connection? > > > > I said above that I estimate her marriage between 1600 and 162...But I > still > can+t make a connection. > > > Thanks for the input, it remains a possibility. > > > Best regards,, > > Miguel > > > > > José > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 4:35 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e > Cairos) > > > > José, > > > > However bastard lines were quite common, even the Portuguese Royal House, > > had bastards who became Kings (Like D. João I, the first of the Avis > line). > > In the Case of noble lines, like the Saldanhas,bastards would not have > > sucxh > > delicate feelings for the other legitimate sons, and they would not > > hesitate > > in using that name. (that was in some sort a redemption from being > > bastards) > > - And they were legal Saldanhas, anyway., because there was not at all > any > > discirmination. If your father had such and such a name, the children > could > > and would use it regardless of the mother. As was the case with Pedro > Dias > > Saldanha who used the full and traditional name of the Saldanha's. Just > > remember that it was an archi.patriarchal society. The ma's line was the > > line tat counted. The mother's line only counted if she was noble. > > > > Anyway what I´m now looking for is from what family was Ana Henriques, > his > > wife (the wife iof Pedro Dias de Saldanha). > > > > As Manuel Dias (Saldanha) marriage with Maria de Andrada, descendant of > the > > Noronha, proves, the Saldanhas, even bastards , could afford marriages > with > > descendants of the" Capitão Donatário", which means the highest nobility > in > > Madeira. It was a small Island. Everyone knew its place. These things > meant > > a lot in these days. Status was measured and transmitted in the minutest > > way. Democracy and concepts (and practice) of social equality would only > > come 4 centuries later. Even so, even in our days, one cannot say that > > nowadays it's all utopic and flowery. Other social barriers, others > > snobbishness have arised. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On the Saldanhas...still > > > The fact is that our Pedro Dias Saldanha came from a bastard line. so > > they > > > weren't 'legal" Saldanhas. I am not sure that the other children would > > > appreciate that. That may explain why they dropped the Saldanha name. > > > > > > José > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 10:56 AM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) > > > > > > OK. I retrieved the Sousas from Ribeira Grande, > > > Miguel de Castro Henriques to prt-madeira > > > show details Jan 22 > > > > > > To all who descend from the Burgos, > > > > > > Manuel César Furtado, a genealogist who knows a lot about Açores > > genealogy > > > and medieval genealogy, kindly sent me this. > > > > > > Check the names in bold. > > > > > > Remember that Jerónimo de Sousa's, from Ribeira Grande, S.Miguel, > Açores, > > ( > > > m. Maria de Sá) parents were Simão Martins and Leonor de Sousa. > > > > > > It might be possible that Leonor Manuel is the mother of our Leonor de > > > Sousa. > > > Cronologically and topologically it's quite fitting. > > > > > > > > > Then Simoa Martins married to Pedro Jorge and owner of a land with > "foro" > > > could be the mother of Simâo Martins, husband of Leonor de Sousa. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CAPÍTULO 132.º > > > DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE IREZA DE SOUSA > > > § 1.º > > > 1 - Ireza de Sousa, natural da Irlanda, no dizer de Frutuoso, e dama da > > > rainha D. Leonor (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § I). Casou em Portugal > > com > > > um fidalgo, cujo nome Frutuoso não soube, o qual era morador em Souzel, > > > donde veio para a Ilha de S. Miguel por matar um corregedor, fixando > > > residência com sua mulher em Vila Franca e depois no Telhal da Lomba da > > > Ribeira Grande. Ireza de Sousa e seu marido vieram para esta Ilha no > > tempo > > > do Capitão Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. > > > Tiveram: > > > 2 - João de Sousa, que esteve em África no tempo de el-rei D. Manuel, > > onde > > > foi armado Cavaleiro (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § III e V). Casou > com > > > Isabel Alvares, mulher nobre. > > > Tiveram: > > > 3 - Baltazar Vaz de Sousa, foi morador na Ribeira Grande, ao Telhal e > > > morreu > > > em Porto Seguro, no Brasil (Vide os seus feitos no Cap.º XXIV do Livro > IV > > > das Saudades da Terra, e também no Cap.º LXI do mesmo Livro, onde se vê > > que > > > era magarefe). Sua mulher morreu na freguesia da Matriz da Ribeira > Grande > > a > > > 13.4.1654 com testamento, sendo testamenteiro seu filho João de Sousa. > > > Casou > > > com Leonor Manuel. > > > Tiveram: > > > 4 - Nuno de Sousa, Capitão de ordenanças na Ribeira Grande, aí morador > e > > em > > > S. Pedro da Ribeira Seca onde morreu a 11.4.1610 (Frutuoso, Livro IV, > > Cap.º > > > XXIV § VIII e Cap.º XLVI § II). De um livro da Misericórdia de Ponta > > > Delgada > > > de 1614, consta que os herdeiros de Nuno de Sousa, da Ribeira Grande, > > devem > > > há muito tempo à Misericórdia de Ponta Delgada um foro e são elas as > > > seguintes: Bárbara de Paiva, Isabel Paim, Madalena de Paiva e Heitor > > > Fernandes, genro. A terra deste foro tinha sido de Simoa Martins, > mulher > > de > > > Pedro Jorge. Casou a primeira vez com Catarina de Moura, irmã do Padre > > > Antonio de Moura, de Ponta Delgada, a qual morreu na freguesia Matriz > da > > > Ribeira Grande a 20.4.1560 com testamento em que deixa a terça a suas > > > filhas > > > e nomeando o marido testamenteiro. Casou a segunda vez com Francisca de > > > Paiva . > > > Teve da primeira mulher: > > > 5 - Jerônima de Sousa, que casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande a > 22.1.1569 > > > com > > > Brás do Rego Rodovalho. > > > > > > CAPÍTULO 18.º > > > DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE GONÇALO DO REGO, O VELHO > > > § 1.º > > > 1 - Gonçalo do Rego, o Velho, veio para S. Miguel no tempo do Capitão > > > Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. Era natural do Porto e veio de lá > > > parece > > > que já viúvo da primeira mulher e com três filhos dela (Frutuoso, Livro > > IV, > > > Cap.º XXII). Casou a segunda vez com Isabel Pires. > > > Teve do 2.º casamento: > > > 2 - Manuel do Rego. Casou com Maria Jerônima. > > > Tiveram: > > > 3 - Braz do Rego Rodovalho, casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande, a > > 22.1.1569, > > > com Jerônima de Sousa. > > > Tiveram: > > > 4 - Gonçalo do Rego de Sousa, que consta do termo de óbito de sua tia > > > Beatriz de Sousa (falecida em S. Pedro Ribeira Grande a 1.2.1611), de > > quem > > > foi herdeiro. Aí se diz ser filho de Jerônima de Sousa. Faleceu na > Matriz > > > de > > > Ponta Delgada a 23.10.1659. Casou Maria da Cunha Teixeira, falecida na > > > Matriz de Ponta Delgada a 10.2.1633, filha de Luís Martins e Isabel da > > > Cunha. > > > Tiveram: > > > 5 - Calisto do Rego e Sousa, batizado na Matriz de Ponta Delgada a > > > 18.10.1627. Casou em S. Pedro de Ponta Delgada, a 10.2.1649, com Maria > > > Cabral de Melo. > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Miguel/Cecce > > > > Re: burgos/viana etc. > > > > Children of Maria de Cairos marry into all of these families, i.e. > > Viana > > > > de Cairos etc. At least in my family! > > > > > > > > José > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > > Henriques > > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 9:01 AM > > > > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:06 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Jose said: It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. > > His > > > > > grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know > > the > > > > > Ferreiras, but it seems odd. > > > > > > > > > > Miguel said:I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You > from > > > > Diogo > > > > > Dias (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > > > > > > > > > Cece says: Looks like both Diogo and Manuel children decided that > > their > > > > > mothers names were "better", because neither became Dias Saldanhas. > > > Diogo > > > > > Dias son is Antonio Ferreira and Manuel Dias son is Matias Andrade > > -so > > > > both > > > > > took Moms name instead. > > > > > > > > > > The point is that both Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias are the sons of > > Pedro > > > > Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. So they were really sons of their > > > mothers > > > > and fathers, and legitimate Saldanhas. The Dias comes from the g. > > parent > > > of > > > > both Diogo and Manuel - Diogo Dias Saldanha, Ouvidor em Machico m. to > > D. > > > > Mara Catanho, dau, of António Vieira, meirinho, and D. Margarida > > Catanho. > > > > > > > > 1.Diogo Saldanha. (Had lands in Santo da Serra,in 149..). > > > > 1.2. Digo Saldanha. (Build the church in that "freguesia", around > 1520) > > > > ..... > > > > 1.3. Gui or Diogo Ennes Saldanha m. 1558 Isabel Fernandes (Quite > > possibly > > > > direct descendant of the former), they had: > > > > 1.4. Diogo Dias Saldanha m. D. Maria Catanho, had from Concórdia > > > Fernandes > > > > (black?): > > > > 1.5. Pedro Dias Saldanha m. Ana Henriques,had > > > > 1.6. Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias (Saldanha) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matias takes the name from her mother, indeed. The Andrades in that > > time > > > > was > > > > a "better" name to use. The Andrades were still on their rise, and > the > > > > Saldanhas beggining their descent. I wonder why they did not use the > > > > Noronha? But once again in that time the Andrade name supplanted the > > > > Noronha. > > > > Manuel Abranches de Soveral, the well known medieval genealogist once > > > told > > > > me that the Henriques name was then prime choice. (Remember that the > > > > Noronhas were Henriques de Noronha). Only later the Noronha name - > > > because > > > > of the rise of Noronhas to the first rank of nobility . came to be > > > > foremost. > > > > > > > > I know that this may sound a bit far-fetched in your hiper-democratic > > > > countries. But the name sensitivity in Portugal was enormous. Still > > > exists, > > > > but of course with the spread of education, nowadays the academic > > titles > > > > count more socially than the historical names. Even só, they still > > carry > > > > some weight, but nothing compared with former centuries. > > > > > > > > Anyway,in the 17 th century (and not only) for the sake of time > economy > > > > sometimes the priests dropped the last name. In social use it was > more > > > > simple to be known by name and surname. Or even by name and locality > > cf, > > > > Tristão da Ilha. João da Ponta. Manuel da Fonte., etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jose said: On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos > e > > > > > Sousa, > > > > > Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > > > > > > > > > Cece says-Tome de Burgos is my ancestor and Manuel de Viana (de > > Caires) > > > > is > > > > > his son in law-married to his daughter Antonia. > > > > > I don't see any familial relationship to Diogo Dias yet, though it > > may > > > be > > > > > there - do you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't see any either. Maybe they did not have any. We already > > discussed > > > > the Burgos, I think. They had a link with the Calaças, And they were > > most > > > > probably from Spain. > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, > > Jose > > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:24 AM > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > You keep up like this and I am going to have to get part of the > > family > > > > > will! > > > > > > > > > > I have heard of the Duke but I don't know or remember where Praça > de > > > > > Saldanha in Lisbon is. However, may I accept your invitation, and > God > > > > > willing or "Oxalá que tenhamos boa saúde e tempo" and we shall meet > > for > > > a > > > > > celebration. > > > > > > > > > > On the Duke you are going to have to work that line for me. > > > > > It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His > grandson > > > > > António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the > > > Ferreiras, > > > > > but it seems odd. > > > > > On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, > > > Manuel > > > > de > > > > > Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > > > > > > > > > José, waiting for that manzanillo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > > Castro > > > > > Henriques > > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:43 AM > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > > > > > Ok. José- > > > > > > > > > > So we have one more couple of ancestors in common! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The name is Pedro. > > > > > I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo Dias > > > > > (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > > > > > > > > > Shall we meet for a coffee and a cup of manzanillo in Praça de > > Saldanha > > > > to > > > > > celebrate? > > > > > > > > > > The Duke is still our cousin, after all ; -) > > > > > > > > > > Bitório was written according to the Northern (North of Portugal) > > > accent. > > > > > They still say baca for vaca, bino for vinho. And Bitório for > Vitório > > > or > > > > > Vitorino. > > > > > > > > > > So he is Vitório or Vitorino Pires. Though the old and "wrong" > (wrong > > > for > > > > > southerners) Bitório is endearing. > > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > And... > > > > > > > > > > > > On Dias Saldanha ( can't decipher his first name) who married Ana > > > > > > Henriques, but I can't find that certificate, his son is Diogo > Dias > > > > > > who marries Maria Ferreira in Caniço, 1651, 902, 225V. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Filipa Do Quintal, this is how it is spelled in their > daughters' > > > > > > marriage certificate (Ana Pires) how do you spell her husband's > > name? > > > > > > Bitorio or is it an old writing for Victorino? > > > > > > > > > > > > José > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in > > > this > > > > > incoming message. > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: > > > > 12/03/09 > > > > > 07:32:00 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >