I will take this opportunity to answer why I have Leonor as Leonor de Abreu - not sure about Leandro! It has to do with discussion here involving our beloved but often MIA, Paulo...these are my notes on Leonor: "Paulo says this name is wrong...calls her Leonor de Abreu instead: Jorge Pinto, 1º Morgado da Ilha, dead 1559. Married Leonor de Abreu. There is no creature by the name of "D. Leonor da Costa e Atouguia" or whatever, it's an invention. Leonor de Abreu is said to have been the daughter of a documented Rui Colaço de Abreu & Filipa Rodrigues. Designated heir and administrator was his son: Paulo continues: Forget everything you've read about that "Leonor da Costa e Atouguia", which is an invented creature. After decyphering the death record of Jorge Pinto the younger I could read that he was married to Leonor DE ABREU, who he designated as heir and will executor. After her death all the "fazenda" would pass to their son, Pedro da Costa. There is not a shred of doubt that the Costa surname was already in the family, since Jorge Pinto the younger had a documented paternal uncle named Lopo da Costa, so this late "Leonor da Costa" was really unecessary to explain it. Leonor de Abreu is said somewhere to be from the Abreus Colaços, which is quite plausible. Catarina Álvares was daughter of Luís Álvares, Esquire, which is a COSTA even if he never used that surname himself. His family acquired the position of "Contador dos Contos da Ilha da Madeira" when his son Francisco Álvares married Branca de Atouguia, who brought the position in her "dote". As such - I have detached Leonor de Atougia da Costa from her parents as originally provided by geneall and changed her name and parentage as Paulo suggests above." Basically - it all sounded good to me and I did not have anything to prove either name as "right" or "wrong"...but I know Paulo does his homework so figured as long as I added my notes it could always be changed back later ;-) Cece -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 7:39 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] website Leadro, I hope that I'm not re-visiting a subject that you and others may have already answered, but I have been known to be a "testa dura (sic?)." In viewing your TribalPages website, I have a couple questions: 1. You have a Leonor Abreu married to Jorge Pinto, with Leonor's parents being Rodrigo Alvares Da Costa and Ines Delgado. I have the a Leonore de Atouguia da Costa married to a Jorge Pinto, with my Leonor having the same parents as you... Are you saying that your Leonor Abreu is the same person as Leonor de Atouguia da Costa? If so, what's your source for her referencing her surname as Abreu? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 2. Isabel Fernandes (a Velha d'a Serra) you have her parents being Fernao Nunes Cardoso and a Lucrecia Lopes... I have her as being the daughter of Fernao Nunes Cardoso and a Catharina de Gouveia...with the following source notes: "Nobiliario da Madeira by Henrique Henriques de Noronha. Titulo: Delgados. Pedro Delgado, a quem chamárão de alcunha o Nabo, era natural de Portugal, d’a Arruda; passou com sua mulher a viver a esta Ilha pouco depois de seu descobrimento. Foi casado com Izabel Fernandes, a quem chamárão a Vêlha d’a Serra, filha de Fernão Nunes Cardoso, e de Catharina de Gouvêa." Was Lucrecia Lopes another wife of Fernao Nunes Cardoso, if so what's your source? Pat p.s. Hopefully Miguel will add his comments as to who the parents of Isabel Fernandes (a Velha d'a Serra)may have been. Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2009 8:40:51 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] website hey Miguel, you are MORE THAN WELCOME to make suggestions and add new info. Actually, not only you but all our cousins from the forum, which im so proud to be related to. These cyber space is quite nice actually, it feels like a big family. Thank you for your compliments and im looking forward to hear from you all. Leandro In a message dated 06/12/2009 17:30:40 Romance Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Leandro, Great job! Looks like an anthology of almost all Madeiran families - it shows our many connections. For the moment I'm just seeing. You won't mind if I point some corrections, namely in parts that are atributed to me? Some I have new data, others I have abandoned due to new facts and documents. Anyway a genealogical work is always a work in progress, subject to significant changes sometimes, to minor alterations. Where to start? Well I picked , for a start, Afonso da Mata, who was Escudeiro, and Isabel de Freitas. They are well known amidst the founding fathers of all Gaula families. Quite recently I discovered that Isabel de Freitas comes from the Freitas of Terras de Bouro (North of Portugal). It seems a promising line. Yet certainly very difficult to track since it's medieval. I'll try to ask in another forum to some MEDIEVAL specialists who were these Freitas. Clode says that Isabel de Freitas, bescause she was from S. Cruz "probably" belonged to the well known Freitas of Santa Cruz. It's a possibility. But I don't know the origin of these, apart what is common knowledge . they descend from Gonçalo de Freitas. FCR, Monteiro. Mor do Infante D. Fernando. (I was never able to confirm this title) Well, Once again congratulations and regards, Miguel On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 12:18 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > OK - now tell me how you did it?? :-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:prt-m[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:14 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] website > > hey guys, > > especially Cece, Ed, Jeff, Lou, Zack, Jose, Pat and Zelia, > > I just updated my website: _http://teles.tribalpages.com_ > (http://teles.tribalpages.com) > > and put your ancestors of each of you with a coloured box, so in that > way would be easier to follow p how close we are related. > > let me know what you guys think > > thank u > > leandro > > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 3:44:52 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Lou, > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever be. For > us living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally expected > names from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if > not all (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many > people. > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from > the Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also have > Homens from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know > there are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de > Sousa, Homem de Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so > simple at all, > because a simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken from > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a > very ancient Portuguese family. > > > Well, I hope I was of some help, > > Best regards, > > Miguel > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his > marriage to Maria Lopes? > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo > as ascendant. > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. > > > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Miguel > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn mode > > and have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he > is > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco > > Rodrigues Duarte on 16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter > > Maria > Lopes > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book #454, > > fl > > 81) > > > > Regards, > > Lou > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > Castro Henriques > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > Hello Lu, > > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean > > typical names from these times. > > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any > Drummond > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or > > daughter > ? > > > > Regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > All, > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am > > > sending them > > out > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or hints > > > are appreciated. > > > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar > > > de > Baixo > > > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is welcomed. > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found > in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.94/2545 - Release Date: 12/05/09 > 08:13:00 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.94/2545 - Release Date: 12/06/09 19:37:00

Thank you Cece... I'm going to check with ARM to see if I can obtain a translated copy of that death record that Paulo mention in his posting, that you quoted below... I also feel that Sr. Mello "does his homework." ;-)). Maybe someone else can e-mail Miguel for his input I believe this may be his line also, since he apparently isn't answering my questions lately... ;-)). Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cece Camara" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2009 5:58:59 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] website I will take this opportunity to answer why I have Leonor as Leonor de Abreu - not sure about Leandro! It has to do with discussion here involving our beloved but often MIA, Paulo...these are my notes on Leonor: "Paulo says this name is wrong...calls her Leonor de Abreu instead: Jorge Pinto, 1º Morgado da Ilha, dead 1559. Married Leonor de Abreu. There is no creature by the name of "D. Leonor da Costa e Atouguia" or whatever, it's an invention. Leonor de Abreu is said to have been the daughter of a documented Rui Colaço de Abreu & Filipa Rodrigues. Designated heir and administrator was his son: Paulo continues: Forget everything you've read about that "Leonor da Costa e Atouguia", which is an invented creature. After decyphering the death record of Jorge Pinto the younger I could read that he was married to Leonor DE ABREU, who he designated as heir and will executor. After her death all the "fazenda" would pass to their son, Pedro da Costa. There is not a shred of doubt that the Costa surname was already in the family, since Jorge Pinto the younger had a documented paternal uncle named Lopo da Costa, so this late "Leonor da Costa" was really unecessary to explain it. Leonor de Abreu is said somewhere to be from the Abreus Colaços, which is quite plausible. Catarina Álvares was daughter of Luís Álvares, Esquire, which is a COSTA even if he never used that surname himself. His family acquired the position of "Contador dos Contos da Ilha da Madeira" when his son Francisco Álvares married Branca de Atouguia, who brought the position in her "dote". As such - I have detached Leonor de Atougia da Costa from her parents as originally provided by geneall and changed her name and parentage as Paulo suggests above." Basically - it all sounded good to me and I did not have anything to prove either name as "right" or "wrong"...but I know Paulo does his homework so figured as long as I added my notes it could always be changed back later ;-) Cece -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 7:39 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] website Leadro, I hope that I'm not re-visiting a subject that you and others may have already answered, but I have been known to be a "testa dura (sic?)." In viewing your TribalPages website, I have a couple questions: 1. You have a Leonor Abreu married to Jorge Pinto, with Leonor's parents being Rodrigo Alvares Da Costa and Ines Delgado. I have the a Leonore de Atouguia da Costa married to a Jorge Pinto, with my Leonor having the same parents as you... Are you saying that your Leonor Abreu is the same person as Leonor de Atouguia da Costa? If so, what's your source for her referencing her surname as Abreu? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 2. Isabel Fernandes (a Velha d'a Serra) you have her parents being Fernao Nunes Cardoso and a Lucrecia Lopes... I have her as being the daughter of Fernao Nunes Cardoso and a Catharina de Gouveia...with the following source notes: "Nobiliario da Madeira by Henrique Henriques de Noronha. Titulo: Delgados. Pedro Delgado, a quem chamárão de alcunha o Nabo, era natural de Portugal, d’a Arruda; passou com sua mulher a viver a esta Ilha pouco depois de seu descobrimento. Foi casado com Izabel Fernandes, a quem chamárão a Vêlha d’a Serra, filha de Fernão Nunes Cardoso, e de Catharina de Gouvêa." Was Lucrecia Lopes another wife of Fernao Nunes Cardoso, if so what's your source? Pat p.s. Hopefully Miguel will add his comments as to who the parents of Isabel Fernandes (a Velha d'a Serra)may have been. Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2009 8:40:51 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] website hey Miguel, you are MORE THAN WELCOME to make suggestions and add new info. Actually, not only you but all our cousins from the forum, which im so proud to be related to. These cyber space is quite nice actually, it feels like a big family. Thank you for your compliments and im looking forward to hear from you all. Leandro In a message dated 06/12/2009 17:30:40 Romance Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Leandro, Great job! Looks like an anthology of almost all Madeiran families - it shows our many connections. For the moment I'm just seeing. You won't mind if I point some corrections, namely in parts that are atributed to me? Some I have new data, others I have abandoned due to new facts and documents. Anyway a genealogical work is always a work in progress, subject to significant changes sometimes, to minor alterations. Where to start? Well I picked , for a start, Afonso da Mata, who was Escudeiro, and Isabel de Freitas. They are well known amidst the founding fathers of all Gaula families. Quite recently I discovered that Isabel de Freitas comes from the Freitas of Terras de Bouro (North of Portugal). It seems a promising line. Yet certainly very difficult to track since it's medieval. I'll try to ask in another forum to some MEDIEVAL specialists who were these Freitas. Clode says that Isabel de Freitas, bescause she was from S. Cruz "probably" belonged to the well known Freitas of Santa Cruz. It's a possibility. But I don't know the origin of these, apart what is common knowledge . they descend from Gonçalo de Freitas. FCR, Monteiro. Mor do Infante D. Fernando. (I was never able to confirm this title) Well, Once again congratulations and regards, Miguel On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 12:18 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > OK - now tell me how you did it?? :-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:14 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] website > > hey guys, > > especially Cece, Ed, Jeff, Lou, Zack, Jose, Pat and Zelia, > > I just updated my website: _http://teles.tribalpages.com_ > (http://teles.tribalpages.com) > > and put your ancestors of each of you with a coloured box, so in that > way would be easier to follow p how close we are related. > > let me know what you guys think > > thank u > > leandro > > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 3:44:52 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Lou, > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever be. For > us living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally expected > names from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if > not all (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many > people. > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from > the Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also have > Homens from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know > there are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de > Sousa, Homem de Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so > simple at all, > because a simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken from > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a > very ancient Portuguese family. > > > Well, I hope I was of some help, > > Best regards, > > Miguel > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his > marriage to Maria Lopes? > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo > as ascendant. > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. > > > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Miguel > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn mode > > and have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he > is > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco > > Rodrigues Duarte on 16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter > > Maria > Lopes > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book #454, > > fl > > 81) > > > > Regards, > > Lou > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > Castro Henriques > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > Hello Lu, > > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean > > typical names from these times. > > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any > Drummond > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or > > daughter > ? > > > > Regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > All, > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am > > > sending them > > out > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or hints > > > are appreciated. > > > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar > > > de > Baixo > > > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is welcomed. > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found > in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.94/2545 - Release Date: 12/05/09 > 08:13:00 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.94/2545 - Release Date: 12/06/09 19:37:00 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message