Jose said:It is our Irish link! Miguel said:Irish? How come? refresh me, please, because it's my favourite country,apart from Portugal ; - )) Cece says-My question exactly!! And especially since that is the next biggest part of my ancestry. Why is it an Irish link?? Jose said: On Madelena Jorge. It says she was from the Fragas, the one married in 1622 to Pedro Gonçalves. Her parents were Jorge Dias and Catarina de Castro Caniço, 1585). Jorge's parents are Gonçalo Jorge and Agueda Dias. Cece says-Do you know if this Goncalo Jorge was married twice? I have a Goncalo Jorge (same time frame) married to Dona Policena Teixeira. I checked geneall and they have a Goncalo Jorge de Chaves married to Leonor Teixeira that look to be the same couple maybe..as both my Policena (from Teixeiras de Tristao Vaz) and their Leonor are daughters of João Teixeira Escórcio (although even there is a conflict as different mothers are listed). -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 3:27 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 4:57 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > Here, on Francisco it would be interesting to find where Gabriel Vaz > or Maria de Cairos come from. They marry in Camacha. In his marriage > and he doesn't use D'Orta and then suddenly at his son's he his a > D'Orta. Is it possible it is just that he had a "horta"? > Well, theoretically yes. It could be possible that he was named D'Orta because he had an Horta. But an horta is a small and trivial thing, and he was a Lavrador. He had to be a wealthy Lavrador since he married a Viana, from nobility. I don't see that the Vianas, proud owners of the best marble tomb in Madeira, would give away a daughter to a guy that had an Horta. The Vianas had high status on earth and on heavens! > We have had already had a conversation on the Sousas. Jerónimo is my > 11th, from Azores and so on. It is our Irish link! > > Irish? How come? refresh me, please, because it's my favourite > country, apart from Portugal ; - )) > I do have a Vitória Miranda married to Marcos Francisco de Braga in 1567. > This is through my Fernandes Veloza main branch. > > Marcos must be of the real Bragas, because that´s a name (Marcos) they > used a lot. Some Marques, may come from one of the Marcos de Braga. So do you have a connection with Diogo Cão, the navigator (thorugh the Bragas) ? Vitória either is from the Correias Mirandas, or from the Lourenço de Miranda branch, I suppose. > As you know I too, Cecce and others link to Mundos de Nóbrega. Yes, I know. It is great to find so many cousins. > Terras de Nóbrega is a beautiful place, at least on the internet site. > I shall visit itr one of these days. FDo you have any money to restore > the castle? If the Nóbregas are from there, noblesse oblige, we have to help to restore that castle ; -)) > I like the Mundos name. In fact, there are Nóbregas all over the world now! > Yes. It was a prophetic name. > > The Vianas must come from Viana do Castelo. Been there. Liked the place. > > On Madelena Jorge. It says she was from the Fragas, the one married in 1622 > to Pedro Gonçalves. Her parents were Jorge Dias and Catarina de Castro > (Caniço, 1585). Jorge's parents are Gonçalo Jorge and Agueda Dias. That's on spot. Is what I have too. I still have to figure out from where this Fragas came to madeira, because it's nor a common name. > Can't find that certificate. Any help is most welcome! By the way, > Gonçalo is a "mestre d'açucar. Catarina's parents are Pedro Afonso, he > was a "lavrador" and seemed to have married twice, and Maria Alves. I > only know Maria's mother a widow- Gregória Martins. > Yes- Gonçalo is the responsible for my blood liking to run with rum. A very guilty man. Has spoiled generations ; -)) > Any links here to Porto Santo. Perhaps through Martins? > I don't know, though... Martins does'nt sound to me as a typical Portosantense name. But... regards, Miguel > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:27 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > José, > > He is the same Francisco. Sometimes name were shortened Anyway the > d'Orta name puzzles me. There are the Hurtere, Flemish, from Açores > (which gave the name to cidade da Horta), and the Horta, from Spain. > Could he be from Açores ? From the Hurtere branch? Never heard someone > raising this question before. May be I am 100% wrong. > > The Sás or Sousas e Sás from Caniço are, in part Sousas (by way of > Jerónimo de Sousa, the trunk of that line) from Açores. I can't > remember now their Sá name origin. It was a mighty name then, not > common, though there were some Sás commoners and a few Sás nobles. > Anyway a noble having Sá as a name would use it proudly. Like the > Bettencourts de Sá did. > Curuosly the Sás originate in Porto (Portugal) from bourgeois origins, > around the mid 14 th century. So it's not that old. (A really old name > in Portugal is a name existing before 1143, before King Afonso > Henriques declared independence from Castille) when Portugal was still > Comitat Portucalensis. > > I also have lots of Corrêas de Miranda (from Caniço) , coming from the > first Corrêa de Miranda settler. Do you have them too? Actually my > g.grand mother was Eulália de Jesus Corrêa de Miranda, her godfather > was Morgado Jacinto de Freitas Lomelino, still a relative. She married > a Nóbrega from the line of Mundos da Nóbrega. (They say Mundos name > was Edmundo. It's quite probable. > But I like the way it stayed for posterity : Mundos. The translation > in English, of course, is "Worlds". Quite meaningful. At least I give > it a lot of meaning, though Mundos was illiterate. I have his > signature, a typical cross. ) > > The point about the origin of the Nóbrega surname is: was Nóbrega a > toponymic, or not? In short , did the first Madeira Nóbrega came from > the "Terras de Nóbrega", or did they carry the name Nóbrega? In the > later case they could be a branch of the Aboim. But I have not seen > this problem satisfactorily solved. One day, if Nóbrega is an added > patronymic then wi will have to dive in the Gonçalves of Terras de > Anóbrega - another way of saying Nóbrega. And that's for sure cnossian! > > The Regos seems to be from Algarve. The trunk of the Vianas, according > to primo Clode, was Afonso Viana, from Caniço. > > >From him was descended João de Viana, Fidalgo Escudeiro da Casa Real, > "whose > descendants mixed with the Cairos from Caniço".(source: Clode. FMPS pg > 333). > > The Vianas in that time were very rich, had a marble tomb, much > envied, because they were perhaps the only ones in Madeira to afford such a luxury. > (There is no marble in Madeira). Other noble families wanted to have a > marble tomb " na feissão da de João de Vianna) (similar to the marble > tom of the magnífico Viana). > > Don' forget ti tell me about your Dias Saldanha. > > Mine were Manuel Dias Saldanha m. Maria de Andrada ( from the Ferreira > Noronhas). His parents were Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. (m. > around 162...) > Perdo Dias Saldanha was a natural son of Diogo Annes Saldanha (ouvidor > de > Machico) and Concórdia Fernandes. (I suppose Concórdia was a black > woman, or mestiça. But I don't know why I suppose so. Perhaps Paulo > can shed some light in here* She was Diogo's "amiga". (lovely > expression for lover.) Ana Henriques, obviously, interests me. Now the > Henriques name, being a patronymic, is a hard bone to crunch. > Unfortunately there is no marriage certificate for Pedro Dias Saldanha > and Ana Henriques. > > The interesting thing is to find Saldanhas in Madeira, at an early time. > Almost after the first settlement. I am almost sure . due to their > status, that they were from the Saldanhas that came to Portugal from Spain. > > And as I lived quite near Praça do Saldanha , in Lisbon ( Duke of > Saldanha > Square) during many years, this name interests me a lot. I also have > friends with that name, direct descendants of the first Saldanhas who > came to Portugal. > > About Madalena Jorge, i have scores of Jorges too. Some, were from > Porto Santo, descendants of Pedro Jorge (From the terrible mess of the > mid 16 th Calaças). Others from Gaula, and have nothing to do with the > former. And still others like BeatrizJorge married to Manuel Afonso, > (16 th century) that I can't track. > > > Regards, > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: 12/03/09 07:32:00

Oops I missed that comment from Miguel. Miguel will recall Paulo's posting on the Sousa's from Ribeira Grande, Azores and their discussion on the origin of the Sousas. Part of that discussion was the possibility of Jerónimo de Sousa, our ancestor, coming from the Sousas's of Ribeira Grande and eventually from Iresa who had married a Potuguese noble who killed a man and went in exile to Azores. Iresa was Irish who had come with Queen Leonor de Lancaster. At least this is what I remember. I have it in my records but I haven't got time for the moment. Gonçalo Jorge was a 'mestre d'açucar. In the certificate should have that. I don't know if he was married twice. De Chaves name here at this time, may be suggest that he may have been first generation in Madeira. But he was mestre d'açucar and Portuguese didn't much about sugar. I always thought he might be from the canaries. I don't have his parents. Do you have parents from the Policena marriage? José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cece Camara Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:15 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos Jose said:It is our Irish link! Miguel said:Irish? How come? refresh me, please, because it's my favourite country,apart from Portugal ; - )) Cece says-My question exactly!! And especially since that is the next biggest part of my ancestry. Why is it an Irish link?? Jose said: On Madelena Jorge. It says she was from the Fragas, the one married in 1622 to Pedro Gonçalves. Her parents were Jorge Dias and Catarina de Castro Caniço, 1585). Jorge's parents are Gonçalo Jorge and Agueda Dias. Cece says-Do you know if this Goncalo Jorge was married twice? I have a Goncalo Jorge (same time frame) married to Dona Policena Teixeira. I checked geneall and they have a Goncalo Jorge de Chaves married to Leonor Teixeira that look to be the same couple maybe..as both my Policena (from Teixeiras de Tristao Vaz) and their Leonor are daughters of João Teixeira Escórcio (although even there is a conflict as different mothers are listed). -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 3:27 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 4:57 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > Here, on Francisco it would be interesting to find where Gabriel Vaz > or Maria de Cairos come from. They marry in Camacha. In his marriage > and he doesn't use D'Orta and then suddenly at his son's he his a > D'Orta. Is it possible it is just that he had a "horta"? > Well, theoretically yes. It could be possible that he was named D'Orta because he had an Horta. But an horta is a small and trivial thing, and he was a Lavrador. He had to be a wealthy Lavrador since he married a Viana, from nobility. I don't see that the Vianas, proud owners of the best marble tomb in Madeira, would give away a daughter to a guy that had an Horta. The Vianas had high status on earth and on heavens! > We have had already had a conversation on the Sousas. Jerónimo is my > 11th, from Azores and so on. It is our Irish link! > > Irish? How come? refresh me, please, because it's my favourite > country, apart from Portugal ; - )) > I do have a Vitória Miranda married to Marcos Francisco de Braga in 1567. > This is through my Fernandes Veloza main branch. > > Marcos must be of the real Bragas, because that´s a name (Marcos) they > used a lot. Some Marques, may come from one of the Marcos de Braga. So do you have a connection with Diogo Cão, the navigator (thorugh the Bragas) ? Vitória either is from the Correias Mirandas, or from the Lourenço de Miranda branch, I suppose. > As you know I too, Cecce and others link to Mundos de Nóbrega. Yes, I know. It is great to find so many cousins. > Terras de Nóbrega is a beautiful place, at least on the internet site. > I shall visit itr one of these days. FDo you have any money to restore > the castle? If the Nóbregas are from there, noblesse oblige, we have to help to restore that castle ; -)) > I like the Mundos name. In fact, there are Nóbregas all over the world now! > Yes. It was a prophetic name. > > The Vianas must come from Viana do Castelo. Been there. Liked the place. > > On Madelena Jorge. It says she was from the Fragas, the one married in 1622 > to Pedro Gonçalves. Her parents were Jorge Dias and Catarina de Castro > (Caniço, 1585). Jorge's parents are Gonçalo Jorge and Agueda Dias. That's on spot. Is what I have too. I still have to figure out from where this Fragas came to madeira, because it's nor a common name. > Can't find that certificate. Any help is most welcome! By the way, > Gonçalo is a "mestre d'açucar. Catarina's parents are Pedro Afonso, he > was a "lavrador" and seemed to have married twice, and Maria Alves. I > only know Maria's mother a widow- Gregória Martins. > Yes- Gonçalo is the responsible for my blood liking to run with rum. A very guilty man. Has spoiled generations ; -)) > Any links here to Porto Santo. Perhaps through Martins? > I don't know, though... Martins does'nt sound to me as a typical Portosantense name. But... regards, Miguel > > >