is he from sao vicente? i would really appreciate if you could help me with this miguel. thank you leandro In a message dated 06/12/2009 18:33:34 Romance Standard Time, [email protected] writes: It can be the same line of the 19 th century madeiran famous genealogist Julião de Franca e Vasconcelos- On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < [email protected]> wrote: > Ah, that (their son's name) changes the perspective. Either Amaro Mendes > was a Mendes de Vasconcelos, or more probably she was a França de > Vasconcelos. In which case her ascendancy is known. I'll try perhaps > tomorrow or so, to work that out. But I'm now rather inclined to see Maria > de França as a França e Vasconcelos, because of her son's name. > > > Miguel > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 5:21 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Miguel, >> >> i dont have the docs. Just saw once on the microfilms the certificate of >> her son's wedding jose franca de vasconcelos with my direct ancestor maria >> telo de meneses in 1728 in sao vicente :( >> >> leandro >> >> >> In a message dated 06/12/2009 18:16:47 Romance Standard Time, >> [email protected] writes: >> >> Leandro, >> >> as she is a "Dona" chances are she is really from the Franças. The >> Franças >> were on their rise. They became one of the most powerful families in >> Madeira. Lords of I don't know how many morgadios. I am also descended >> for >> them, unfortunately not from the more fortunate trunks who inherited the >> lands. The system of morgadio had no pity for second, third, and fourth >> sons. >> >> Who are the witness or "padrinhos" in that document? >> >> Miguel >> >> On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 3:51 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Miguel.... >> > >> > im looking for the francas in S vicente as well. i have antonio mendes >> > married with dona maria de franca in mid 1600s (dont have the precise >> date) >> > but have no parents of the groom neither the bride. Can you help me >> with >> > that >> > please? >> > >> > Thank you >> > >> > Leandro >> > >> > >> > In a message dated 06/12/2009 16:40:05 Romance Standard Time, >> > [email protected] writes: >> > >> > Hello Lou, >> > >> > >> > The nª 4 Vicente de França de Andrada has a similar name to some >> Brasões >> > Teixeiras and Brasões Gouveias from S. Vicente. Have you explored his >> > line? >> > Somehow he must be of the Franças and of the Andrades. >> > >> > In 4. Is it Sebastina de A. de dau. of the nº 3 ? >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Miguel >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:14 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> > >> > > 1. Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira (ca. 1590, >> marriage >> not >> > > recorded in Ribeira Brava) >> > > >> > > 2. Francisco Rodrigues Duarte + Ines Martins(1) (Ribeira Brava, >> 16 >> > > Sept >> > > 1614 – B#389, fl 153) >> > > >> > > 3. Manuel Duarte(2) + Catarina de Abreu (widow) (Ribeira Brava, >> 27 >> > Aug >> > > 1640 – B#390, fl 41) >> > > >> > > 4. Vicente de Franca de Andrade + Sebastiana de Abreu(3) (Sao >> > Vicente, >> > > 5 Feb 1670 – B#579, fl 53) >> > > >> > > 5. Vicente de Franca(4) + Maria de Sa (Sao Vicente, 3 Sept 1696 >> – >> > > B#556, fl 63) >> > > >> > > 6. Basilio Pestana + Josefa de Franca(5) (Serra de Agua, 13 June >> 1735 >> > > – >> > > B#409, fl 24) >> > > >> > > 7. Francisco de Andrade(6) + Maria dos Reis (Serra de Agua, 20 >> Feb >> > > 1770 >> > > – B#409, fl 79) >> > > >> > > 8. Manuel de Andrade Silva(7) + Ana Maria (Serra de Agua, 30 >> Jan >> > 1815 >> > > – >> > > B#411, fl 8) >> > > >> > > 9. Manuel Pestana de Gouveia + Delfina Maria(8) (Serra de Agua, >> 9 >> > July >> > > 1849 – B#411, fl 110) >> > > >> > > 10. Joao de Abreu Amarelo(widower) + Delfina da Conceicao(9) >> Serra >> > de >> > > Agua, 13 April 1891 – R#6) >> > > >> > > 11. Antonio Neves de Abreu Amarelo(10) + Carolina de Sousa da >> Camara >> > > (Ponta do Sol, 3 Feb 1916 –R#2) >> > > >> > > 12. Louis Neves Abreu(11) + Maria Pita (Lowell, Massachusetts >> USA, 9 >> > > April 1939) >> > > >> > > 13. Louis Neves Abreu Jr(12) + Pauline Alice Genest (Lowell, >> > > Massachusetts USA, 7 Sept 1959) >> > > >> > > 14. Louis Neves Abreu III(13) + Deborah Elaine Bourgeois (Lowell, >> > > Massachusetts, USA 20 Oct 1979) >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: [email protected] >> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >> > [email protected] >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:30 PM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> > > >> > > yes..it helps a lot. do u have the ancestors of ines? im also >> descendant >> > of >> > > the homem family in ribeira brava >> > > >> > > thank you >> > > >> > > leandro >> > > >> > > >> > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 1:25:11 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >> > > [email protected] writes: >> > > >> > > Leandro, >> > > Okay I see the confusion, let me explain >> > > >> > > Ines Martin's Parents are Francisco Goncalves Homem and Isabel >> Pereira >> > > (marriage not recorded in Ribeira Brava) >> > > >> > > I hope that clears up the confusion. >> > > >> > > Lou >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: [email protected] >> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >> > [email protected] >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 6:32 PM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> > > >> > > hi lou, my doubt is on the children of pedro afonso and leonor >> homem. >> > > >> > > im descended from their dau ines afonso married with fernao anes. >> But >> > pat >> > > said that you have their dau as ines martins married with francisco >> > > rodrigues duarte. im really confused about that :) >> > > >> > > leandro >> > > >> > > >> > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 12:06:49 A.M. W. Europe Standard >> Time, >> > > [email protected] writes: >> > > >> > > Leandro, >> > > I am not sure which line we are talking about here, sorry I am a >> > little >> > > spun around on this one, what do you need clarified. >> > > >> > > Lou >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: [email protected] >> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >> > > [email protected] >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:58 PM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >> > > >> > > Thank you Pat >> > > >> > > Lou...can u pls clarify this line for us please? >> > > >> > > Thank you >> > > >> > > Leandro >> > > >> > > >> > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 10:54:59 P.M. W. Europe Standard >> Time, >> > > [email protected] writes: >> > > >> > > >> > > Leandro, >> > > >> > > Not sure if this is the same "person." >> > > >> > > The only Pedro Afonso (Cavaleiro) I have is married to Leonor >> Homem, >> > > with >> > > the children that I mentioned in my posting attention Miguel and >> Lou. >> > > >> > > I don't have Pedro's parents, but Leonor's parents are Joao Homem >> (de >> > > Monte Gordo) and Catarina Vaz. >> > > >> > > Hopefully Miguel and/or Paulo will be able to add to this >> thread. >> > > >> > > Ines Martins is Lou's ancestor... >> > > >> > > I must admit I'm more confused now than when I first started my >> > > genealogy >> > > quest many, many "moons," ago. I'm finding that what was is >> not >> > > now...Frustrating to say the least. >> > > >> > > I'm trying to sort out Jorge Pinto and Leonor de Atouguia da >> Costa's >> > > line...my info differs from what's in Norhonha- titulo: >> Pintos... >> > > Nothing >> > > consent but the state of change...;-))). >> > > >> > > Pat >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: [email protected] >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:08:24 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada >> > Pacific >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >> > > >> > > Pat, >> > > >> > > I have Pedro afonso and leonor de sousa having a daughter called >> INES >> > > AFONSO and not ines martins. also she is married to fernao anes >> and >> > not >> > > to francisco duarte. Are we talking about the same person on >> here? or >> > > am i mistaken? >> > > >> > > Also, Lou, can you send me on my private email >> [email protected] >> > > descendency list of manuel duarte and guiomar camacho please? >> > > >> > > Thank you >> > > >> > > Leandro >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27 pm >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >> > > >> > > Pat, >> > > You are correct with the marriage record, however, his baptismal >> > > record (11 Dec 1586 b#376,fl 202) as recorded by Dr. Mello, list >> his >> > > full name as Francisco Rodrigues Duarte. His line from there is >> as >> > > follows >> > > >> > > Parents Manuel Duarte + Guiomar Camacha Ribeira Brava Nov 26 >> 1584 >> > > >> > > Manuel's Parents Francisco Duarte + Maria Fernandes Ribeira Brava >> May >> > > 22 1560 >> > > >> > > Guiomar's Parents Francisco Rodrigues Camacho + Catarina >> Pestana >> > > >> > > Does this answer your questions? >> > > >> > > >> > > Regards, >> > > Lou >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: [email protected] >> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat >> Corbera >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:40 PM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >> > > >> > > Miguel, >> > > >> > > Isn't Pedro Afonso who is married to Leonor Homem one of your >> direct >> > > line ancestors? >> > > >> > > Their son Francisco Homem D'El-Rei is my direct line ancestors, >> and >> > if >> > > my notes/memory serves me correctly Francisco's brother Fernao >> Ennes >> > is >> > > your ancestor... >> > > >> > > If the above is correct will you please share the descending >> order >> > from >> > > >> > > Fernao Ennes to you... >> > > >> > > >> > > Pat >> > > >> > > p.s. Lou do you have this marriage record that you referenced >> below? >> > > On the Madeira Archives listing for this marriage, the couples' >> names >> > > are Ines Martins and Francisco Rodrigues...where did you get the >> > Duarte >> > > name from? >> > > >> > > >Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he >> is >> > > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco >> > > Rodrigues Duarte on >16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl >> 153) >> > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" >> > <[email protected]> >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:43:30 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada >> > Pacific >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> > > >> > > Lou, >> > > >> > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever >> be. >> > > For us >> > > living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally >> > expected >> > > names >> > > from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if >> not >> all >> > > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many >> people. >> > > >> > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be >> from >> > the >> > > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also >> have >> > > Homens >> > > from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we >> know >> > > there >> > > are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de >> Sousa, >> > Homem >> > > de >> > > Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at all, >> > > because a >> > > simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). >> > > >> > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic >> taken >> > > from >> > > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a >> > very >> > > ancient Portuguese family. >> > > >> > > >> > > Well, I hope I was of some help, >> > > >> > > Best regards, >> > > >> > > Miguel >> > > >> > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his >> marriage >> > > to >> > > Maria Lopes? >> > > >> > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a >> Lopo >> > as >> > > ascendant. >> > > >> > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III < >> [email protected]> >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > Miguel >> > > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn >> > mode >> > > and >> > > > have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. >> > > > >> > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he >> is >> > > > mentioned >> > > > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues >> Duarte >> > > on 16 >> > > > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) >> > > > >> > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter >> > Maria >> > > Lopes >> > > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book >> #454, >> > fl >> > > 81) >> > > > >> > > > Regards, >> > > > Lou >> > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > From: [email protected] >> > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel >> de >> > > Castro >> > > > Henriques >> > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM >> > > > To: [email protected] >> > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> > > > >> > > > Hello Lu, >> > > > >> > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I >> mean >> > > typical >> > > > names from these times. >> > > > >> > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? >> > > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. >> Any >> > > Drummond >> > > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or >> > > daughter ? >> > > > >> > > > Regards, >> > > > >> > > > Miguel >> > > > >> > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III >> > <[email protected]> >> > > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > All, >> > > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am >> sending >> > > them >> > > > out >> > > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or >> hints >> > are >> > > > > appreciated. >> > > > > >> > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: >> Lugar >> > de >> > > Baixo >> > > > > >> > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded >> > > > > >> > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to >> 1568 >> > > > > >> > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded >> > > > > >> > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to >> 1568 >> > > > > >> > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 >> > > > > >> > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 >> > > > > >> > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 >> > > > > >> > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco >> > > > > >> > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 >> > > > > >> > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is >> > welcomed. >> > > > > >> > > > > Lou >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------- >> > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > > > [email protected] with the word >> 'unsubscribe' >> > > without the >> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > without >> > > the >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > without >> > > the >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > > the >> > > quotes in the subject >> > > and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > without >> > > the >> > > quotes in the subject >> > > and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > the >> > 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