do u think that the husband of dona maria de franca could also be a vasconcelos? his name was antonio mendes? In a message dated 06/12/2009 18:32:37 Romance Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Ah, that (their son's name) changes the perspective. Either Amaro Mendes was a Mendes de Vasconcelos, or more probably she was a França de Vasconcelos. In which case her ascendancy is known. I'll try perhaps tomorrow or so, to work that out. But I'm now rather inclined to see Maria de França as a França e Vasconcelos, because of her son's name. Miguel On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 5:21 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > > i dont have the docs. Just saw once on the microfilms the certificate of > her son's wedding jose franca de vasconcelos with my direct ancestor maria > telo de meneses in 1728 in sao vicente :( > > leandro > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 18:16:47 Romance Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Leandro, > > as she is a "Dona" chances are she is really from the Franças. The Franças > were on their rise. They became one of the most powerful families in > Madeira. Lords of I don't know how many morgadios. I am also descended for > them, unfortunately not from the more fortunate trunks who inherited the > lands. The system of morgadio had no pity for second, third, and fourth > sons. > > Who are the witness or "padrinhos" in that document? > > Miguel > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 3:51 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel.... > > > > im looking for the francas in S vicente as well. i have antonio mendes > > married with dona maria de franca in mid 1600s (dont have the precise > date) > > but have no parents of the groom neither the bride. Can you help me with > > that > > please? > > > > Thank you > > > > Leandro > > > > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 16:40:05 Romance Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > Hello Lou, > > > > > > The nª 4 Vicente de França de Andrada has a similar name to some > Brasões > > Teixeiras and Brasões Gouveias from S. Vicente. Have you explored his > > line? > > Somehow he must be of the Franças and of the Andrades. > > > > In 4. Is it Sebastina de A. de dau. of the nº 3 ? > > > > Regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:14 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > 1. Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira (ca. 1590, marriage > not > > > recorded in Ribeira Brava) > > > > > > 2. Francisco Rodrigues Duarte + Ines Martins(1) (Ribeira Brava, > 16 > > > Sept > > > 1614 – B#389, fl 153) > > > > > > 3. Manuel Duarte(2) + Catarina de Abreu (widow) (Ribeira Brava, > 27 > > Aug > > > 1640 – B#390, fl 41) > > > > > > 4. Vicente de Franca de Andrade + Sebastiana de Abreu(3) (Sao > > Vicente, > > > 5 Feb 1670 – B#579, fl 53) > > > > > > 5. Vicente de Franca(4) + Maria de Sa (Sao Vicente, 3 Sept 1696 > – > > > B#556, fl 63) > > > > > > 6. Basilio Pestana + Josefa de Franca(5) (Serra de Agua, 13 June > 1735 > > > – > > > B#409, fl 24) > > > > > > 7. Francisco de Andrade(6) + Maria dos Reis (Serra de Agua, 20 > Feb > > > 1770 > > > – B#409, fl 79) > > > > > > 8. Manuel de Andrade Silva(7) + Ana Maria (Serra de Agua, 30 Jan > > 1815 > > > – > > > B#411, fl 8) > > > > > > 9. Manuel Pestana de Gouveia + Delfina Maria(8) (Serra de Agua, 9 > > July > > > 1849 – B#411, fl 110) > > > > > > 10. Joao de Abreu Amarelo(widower) + Delfina da Conceicao(9) > Serra > > de > > > Agua, 13 April 1891 – R#6) > > > > > > 11. Antonio Neves de Abreu Amarelo(10) + Carolina de Sousa da > Camara > > > (Ponta do Sol, 3 Feb 1916 –R#2) > > > > > > 12. Louis Neves Abreu(11) + Maria Pita (Lowell, Massachusetts > USA, 9 > > > April 1939) > > > > > > 13. Louis Neves Abreu Jr(12) + Pauline Alice Genest (Lowell, > > > Massachusetts USA, 7 Sept 1959) > > > > > > 14. Louis Neves Abreu III(13) + Deborah Elaine Bourgeois (Lowell, > > > Massachusetts, USA 20 Oct 1979) > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > [email protected] > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:30 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > yes..it helps a lot. do u have the ancestors of ines? im also > descendant > > of > > > the homem family in ribeira brava > > > > > > thank you > > > > > > leandro > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 1:25:11 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > Leandro, > > > Okay I see the confusion, let me explain > > > > > > Ines Martin's Parents are Francisco Goncalves Homem and Isabel > Pereira > > > (marriage not recorded in Ribeira Brava) > > > > > > I hope that clears up the confusion. > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > [email protected] > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 6:32 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > hi lou, my doubt is on the children of pedro afonso and leonor > homem. > > > > > > im descended from their dau ines afonso married with fernao anes. > But > > pat > > > said that you have their dau as ines martins married with francisco > > > rodrigues duarte. im really confused about that :) > > > > > > leandro > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 12:06:49 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > Leandro, > > > I am not sure which line we are talking about here, sorry I am a > > little > > > spun around on this one, what do you need clarified. > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > [email protected] > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:58 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > Thank you Pat > > > > > > Lou...can u pls clarify this line for us please? > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > Leandro > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 10:54:59 P.M. W. Europe Standard > Time, > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > > > Not sure if this is the same "person." > > > > > > The only Pedro Afonso (Cavaleiro) I have is married to Leonor > Homem, > > > with > > > the children that I mentioned in my posting attention Miguel and > Lou. > > > > > > I don't have Pedro's parents, but Leonor's parents are Joao Homem > (de > > > Monte Gordo) and Catarina Vaz. > > > > > > Hopefully Miguel and/or Paulo will be able to add to this thread. > > > > > > Ines Martins is Lou's ancestor... > > > > > > I must admit I'm more confused now than when I first started my > > > genealogy > > > quest many, many "moons," ago. I'm finding that what was is not > > > now...Frustrating to say the least. > > > > > > I'm trying to sort out Jorge Pinto and Leonor de Atouguia da > Costa's > > > line...my info differs from what's in Norhonha- titulo: Pintos... > > > Nothing > > > consent but the state of change...;-))). > > > > > > Pat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:08:24 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada > > Pacific > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > Pat, > > > > > > I have Pedro afonso and leonor de sousa having a daughter called > INES > > > AFONSO and not ines martins. also she is married to fernao anes > and > > not > > > to francisco duarte. Are we talking about the same person on > here? or > > > am i mistaken? > > > > > > Also, Lou, can you send me on my private email > [email protected] > > > descendency list of manuel duarte and guiomar camacho please? > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > Leandro > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27 pm > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > Pat, > > > You are correct with the marriage record, however, his baptismal > > > record (11 Dec 1586 b#376,fl 202) as recorded by Dr. Mello, list > his > > > full name as Francisco Rodrigues Duarte. His line from there is > as > > > follows > > > > > > Parents Manuel Duarte + Guiomar Camacha Ribeira Brava Nov 26 1584 > > > > > > Manuel's Parents Francisco Duarte + Maria Fernandes Ribeira Brava > May > > > 22 1560 > > > > > > Guiomar's Parents Francisco Rodrigues Camacho + Catarina Pestana > > > > > > Does this answer your questions? > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Lou > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat > Corbera > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:40 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > Miguel, > > > > > > Isn't Pedro Afonso who is married to Leonor Homem one of your > direct > > > line ancestors? > > > > > > Their son Francisco Homem D'El-Rei is my direct line ancestors, > and > > if > > > my notes/memory serves me correctly Francisco's brother Fernao > Ennes > > is > > > your ancestor... > > > > > > If the above is correct will you please share the descending order > > from > > > > > > Fernao Ennes to you... > > > > > > > > > Pat > > > > > > p.s. Lou do you have this marriage record that you referenced > below? > > > On the Madeira Archives listing for this marriage, the couples' > names > > > are Ines Martins and Francisco Rodrigues...where did you get the > > Duarte > > > name from? > > > > > > >Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he > is > > > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco > > > Rodrigues Duarte on >16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl > 153) > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" > > <[email protected]> > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:43:30 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada > > Pacific > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > Lou, > > > > > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever > be. > > > For us > > > living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally > > expected > > > names > > > from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if not > all > > > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many > people. > > > > > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be > from > > the > > > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also > have > > > Homens > > > from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we > know > > > there > > > are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de Sousa, > > Homem > > > de > > > Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at all, > > > because a > > > simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). > > > > > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic > taken > > > from > > > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a > > very > > > ancient Portuguese family. > > > > > > > > > Well, I hope I was of some help, > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his > marriage > > > to > > > Maria Lopes? > > > > > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a > Lopo > > as > > > ascendant. > > > > > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III < > [email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn > > mode > > > and > > > > have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he > is > > > > mentioned > > > > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues > Duarte > > > on 16 > > > > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > > > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter > > Maria > > > Lopes > > > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book > #454, > > fl > > > 81) > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel > de > > > Castro > > > > Henriques > > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > Hello Lu, > > > > > > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean > > > typical > > > > names from these times. > > > > > > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > > > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. > Any > > > Drummond > > > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or > > > daughter ? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III > > <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All, > > > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am > sending > > > them > > > > out > > > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or > hints > > are > > > > > appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: > Lugar > > de > > > Baixo > > > > > > > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > > > > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to > 1568 > > > > > > > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > > > > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to > 1568 > > > > > > > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > > > > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > > > > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > > > > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > > > > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is > > welcomed. > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the > > > quotes in the subject > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > the > > > quotes in the subject > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject > > and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

mmmm. When I first saw Antònio's son name I thought it might came from him. But on second thoughts, no. A Vasconcelos would use Vasconcelos, not the Mendes. There were loads of Mendes, and it's a patronymic. Not that many Vasconcelos - one of the "biggest" name you could have in Madeira at that time. So the Vasconcelos almost for sure comes from the mother (as well as the França - and that happened a lot, a son adopting both his mother's names, if they were better than his father's). In that case the França de Vasconcelos - in your case as well as in Lou's - comes very probably from André de França m. D. Leonor de Vasconcelos. He son, of João de França and Inês Pires (Escócia) and he g.son of the first Great and Illustrious Vasconcelos (one of the four Fidalgos sent by the King in answer to João Gonçalves Zarco's request) , Martim Mendes de Vasconcelos m. Helena Gonçalves da Cãmara. regards, Miguel On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 5:37 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > do u think that the husband of dona maria de franca could also be a > vasconcelos? his name was antonio mendes? > > > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 18:32:37 Romance Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Ah, that (their son's name) changes the perspective. Either Amaro Mendes > was > a Mendes de Vasconcelos, or more probably she was a França de Vasconcelos. > In which case her ascendancy is known. I'll try perhaps tomorrow or so, > to > work that out. But I'm now rather inclined to see Maria de França as a > França e Vasconcelos, because of her son's name. > > > Miguel > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 5:21 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel, > > > > i dont have the docs. Just saw once on the microfilms the certificate of > > her son's wedding jose franca de vasconcelos with my direct ancestor > maria > > telo de meneses in 1728 in sao vicente :( > > > > leandro > > > > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 18:16:47 Romance Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > Leandro, > > > > as she is a "Dona" chances are she is really from the Franças. The > Franças > > were on their rise. They became one of the most powerful families in > > Madeira. Lords of I don't know how many morgadios. I am also descended > for > > them, unfortunately not from the more fortunate trunks who inherited > the > > lands. The system of morgadio had no pity for second, third, and fourth > > sons. > > > > Who are the witness or "padrinhos" in that document? > > > > Miguel > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 3:51 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Miguel.... > > > > > > im looking for the francas in S vicente as well. i have antonio > mendes > > > married with dona maria de franca in mid 1600s (dont have the > precise > > date) > > > but have no parents of the groom neither the bride. Can you help me > with > > > that > > > please? > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > Leandro > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 16:40:05 Romance Standard Time, > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > Hello Lou, > > > > > > > > > The nª 4 Vicente de França de Andrada has a similar name to some > > Brasões > > > Teixeiras and Brasões Gouveias from S. Vicente. Have you explored > his > > > line? > > > Somehow he must be of the Franças and of the Andrades. > > > > > > In 4. Is it Sebastina de A. de dau. of the nº 3 ? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:14 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > 1. Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira (ca. 1590, > marriage > > not > > > > recorded in Ribeira Brava) > > > > > > > > 2. Francisco Rodrigues Duarte + Ines Martins(1) (Ribeira > Brava, > > 16 > > > > Sept > > > > 1614 – B#389, fl 153) > > > > > > > > 3. Manuel Duarte(2) + Catarina de Abreu (widow) (Ribeira > Brava, > > 27 > > > Aug > > > > 1640 – B#390, fl 41) > > > > > > > > 4. Vicente de Franca de Andrade + Sebastiana de Abreu(3) (Sao > > > Vicente, > > > > 5 Feb 1670 – B#579, fl 53) > > > > > > > > 5. Vicente de Franca(4) + Maria de Sa (Sao Vicente, 3 Sept > 1696 > > – > > > > B#556, fl 63) > > > > > > > > 6. Basilio Pestana + Josefa de Franca(5) (Serra de Agua, 13 June > > 1735 > > > > – > > > > B#409, fl 24) > > > > > > > > 7. Francisco de Andrade(6) + Maria dos Reis (Serra de Agua, > 20 > > Feb > > > > 1770 > > > > – B#409, fl 79) > > > > > > > > 8. Manuel de Andrade Silva(7) + Ana Maria (Serra de Agua, 30 > Jan > > > 1815 > > > > – > > > > B#411, fl 8) > > > > > > > > 9. Manuel Pestana de Gouveia + Delfina Maria(8) (Serra de Agua, > 9 > > > July > > > > 1849 – B#411, fl 110) > > > > > > > > 10. Joao de Abreu Amarelo(widower) + Delfina da Conceicao(9) > > Serra > > > de > > > > Agua, 13 April 1891 – R#6) > > > > > > > > 11. Antonio Neves de Abreu Amarelo(10) + Carolina de Sousa da > > Camara > > > > (Ponta do Sol, 3 Feb 1916 –R#2) > > > > > > > > 12. Louis Neves Abreu(11) + Maria Pita (Lowell, Massachusetts > > USA, 9 > > > > April 1939) > > > > > > > > 13. Louis Neves Abreu Jr(12) + Pauline Alice Genest (Lowell, > > > > Massachusetts USA, 7 Sept 1959) > > > > > > > > 14. Louis Neves Abreu III(13) + Deborah Elaine Bourgeois > (Lowell, > > > > Massachusetts, USA 20 Oct 1979) > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > [email protected] > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:30 PM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > yes..it helps a lot. do u have the ancestors of ines? im also > > descendant > > > of > > > > the homem family in ribeira brava > > > > > > > > thank you > > > > > > > > leandro > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 1:25:11 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > Okay I see the confusion, let me explain > > > > > > > > Ines Martin's Parents are Francisco Goncalves Homem and Isabel > > Pereira > > > > (marriage not recorded in Ribeira Brava) > > > > > > > > I hope that clears up the confusion. > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > [email protected] > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 6:32 PM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > hi lou, my doubt is on the children of pedro afonso and leonor > > homem. > > > > > > > > im descended from their dau ines afonso married with fernao anes. > > But > > > pat > > > > said that you have their dau as ines martins married with > francisco > > > > rodrigues duarte. im really confused about that :) > > > > > > > > leandro > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 12:06:49 A.M. W. Europe Standard > Time, > > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > I am not sure which line we are talking about here, sorry I am a > > > little > > > > spun around on this one, what do you need clarified. > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > > [email protected] > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:58 PM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > > > Thank you Pat > > > > > > > > Lou...can u pls clarify this line for us please? > > > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > > > Leandro > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 10:54:59 P.M. W. Europe Standard > > Time, > > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > > > > > Not sure if this is the same "person." > > > > > > > > The only Pedro Afonso (Cavaleiro) I have is married to Leonor > > Homem, > > > > with > > > > the children that I mentioned in my posting attention Miguel > and > > Lou. > > > > > > > > I don't have Pedro's parents, but Leonor's parents are Joao > Homem > > (de > > > > Monte Gordo) and Catarina Vaz. > > > > > > > > Hopefully Miguel and/or Paulo will be able to add to this > thread. > > > > > > > > Ines Martins is Lou's ancestor... > > > > > > > > I must admit I'm more confused now than when I first started my > > > > genealogy > > > > quest many, many "moons," ago. I'm finding that what was is > not > > > > now...Frustrating to say the least. > > > > > > > > I'm trying to sort out Jorge Pinto and Leonor de Atouguia da > > Costa's > > > > line...my info differs from what's in Norhonha- titulo: > Pintos... > > > > Nothing > > > > consent but the state of change...;-))). > > > > > > > > Pat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:08:24 PM GMT -08:00 > US/Canada > > > Pacific > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > > > Pat, > > > > > > > > I have Pedro afonso and leonor de sousa having a daughter > called > > INES > > > > AFONSO and not ines martins. also she is married to fernao anes > > and > > > not > > > > to francisco duarte. Are we talking about the same person on > > here? or > > > > am i mistaken? > > > > > > > > Also, Lou, can you send me on my private email > > [email protected] > > > > descendency list of manuel duarte and guiomar camacho please? > > > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > > > Leandro > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27 pm > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > > > Pat, > > > > You are correct with the marriage record, however, his > baptismal > > > > record (11 Dec 1586 b#376,fl 202) as recorded by Dr. Mello, > list > > his > > > > full name as Francisco Rodrigues Duarte. His line from there > is > > as > > > > follows > > > > > > > > Parents Manuel Duarte + Guiomar Camacha Ribeira Brava Nov 26 > 1584 > > > > > > > > Manuel's Parents Francisco Duarte + Maria Fernandes Ribeira Brava > > May > > > > 22 1560 > > > > > > > > Guiomar's Parents Francisco Rodrigues Camacho + Catarina > Pestana > > > > > > > > Does this answer your questions? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat > > Corbera > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:40 PM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > > > Miguel, > > > > > > > > Isn't Pedro Afonso who is married to Leonor Homem one of your > > direct > > > > line ancestors? > > > > > > > > Their son Francisco Homem D'El-Rei is my direct line > ancestors, > > and > > > if > > > > my notes/memory serves me correctly Francisco's brother Fernao > > Ennes > > > is > > > > your ancestor... > > > > > > > > If the above is correct will you please share the descending > order > > > from > > > > > > > > Fernao Ennes to you... > > > > > > > > > > > > Pat > > > > > > > > p.s. Lou do you have this marriage record that you referenced > > below? > > > > On the Madeira Archives listing for this marriage, the couples' > > names > > > > are Ines Martins and Francisco Rodrigues...where did you get > the > > > Duarte > > > > name from? > > > > > > > > >Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, > he > > is > > > > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco > > > > Rodrigues Duarte on >16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book > #389,Fl > > 153) > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" > > > <[email protected]> > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:43:30 AM GMT -08:00 > US/Canada > > > Pacific > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > Lou, > > > > > > > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will > forever > > be. > > > > For us > > > > living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally > > > expected > > > > names > > > > from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if > not > > all > > > > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many > > people. > > > > > > > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be > > from > > > the > > > > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also > > have > > > > Homens > > > > from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we > > know > > > > there > > > > are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de > Sousa, > > > Homem > > > > de > > > > Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at > all, > > > > because a > > > > simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three > types). > > > > > > > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic > > taken > > > > from > > > > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) > are a > > > very > > > > ancient Portuguese family. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, I hope I was of some help, > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his > > marriage > > > > to > > > > Maria Lopes? > > > > > > > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a > > Lopo > > > as > > > > ascendant. > > > > > > > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III < > > [email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in > learn > > > mode > > > > and > > > > > have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > > > > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, > he > > is > > > > > mentioned > > > > > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues > > Duarte > > > > on 16 > > > > > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > > > > > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their > daughter > > > Maria > > > > Lopes > > > > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book > > #454, > > > fl > > > > 81) > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > Miguel > > de > > > > Castro > > > > > Henriques > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > > > Hello Lu, > > > > > > > > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I > mean > > > > typical > > > > > names from these times. > > > > > > > > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > > > > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. > > Any > > > > Drummond > > > > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son > or > > > > daughter ? > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All, > > > > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am > > sending > > > > them > > > > > out > > > > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help > or > > hints > > > are > > > > > > appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: > > Lugar > > > de > > > > Baixo > > > > > > > > > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > > > > > > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to > > 1568 > > > > > > > > > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > > > > > > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to > > 1568 > > > > > > > > > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > > > > > > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > > > > > > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > > > > > > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > > > > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > > > > > > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is > > > welcomed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > > without the > > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject > > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject > > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send 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unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject > > and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >