On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:06 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > Jose said: It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His > grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the > Ferreiras, but it seems odd. > > Miguel said:I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo > Dias (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > Cece says: Looks like both Diogo and Manuel children decided that their > mothers names were "better", because neither became Dias Saldanhas. Diogo > Dias son is Antonio Ferreira and Manuel Dias son is Matias Andrade -so both > took Moms name instead. > > The point is that both Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias are the sons of Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. So they were really sons of their mothers and fathers, and legitimate Saldanhas. The Dias comes from the g. parent of both Diogo and Manuel - Diogo Dias Saldanha, Ouvidor em Machico m. to D. Mara Catanho, dau, of António Vieira, meirinho, and D. Margarida Catanho. 1.Diogo Saldanha. (Had lands in Santo da Serra,in 149..). 1.2. Digo Saldanha. (Build the church in that "freguesia", around 1520) ..... 1.3. Gui or Diogo Ennes Saldanha m. 1558 Isabel Fernandes (Quite possibly direct descendant of the former), they had: 1.4. Diogo Dias Saldanha m. D. Maria Catanho, had from Concórdia Fernandes (black?): 1.5. Pedro Dias Saldanha m. Ana Henriques,had 1.6. Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias (Saldanha) Matias takes the name from her mother, indeed. The Andrades in that time was a "better" name to use. The Andrades were still on their rise, and the Saldanhas beggining their descent. I wonder why they did not use the Noronha? But once again in that time the Andrade name supplanted the Noronha. Manuel Abranches de Soveral, the well known medieval genealogist once told me that the Henriques name was then prime choice. (Remember that the Noronhas were Henriques de Noronha). Only later the Noronha name - because of the rise of Noronhas to the first rank of nobility . came to be foremost. I know that this may sound a bit far-fetched in your hiper-democratic countries. But the name sensitivity in Portugal was enormous. Still exists, but of course with the spread of education, nowadays the academic titles count more socially than the historical names. Even só, they still carry some weight, but nothing compared with former centuries. Anyway,in the 17 th century (and not only) for the sake of time economy sometimes the priests dropped the last name. In social use it was more simple to be known by name and surname. Or even by name and locality cf, Tristão da Ilha. João da Ponta. Manuel da Fonte., etc. > Jose said: On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e > Sousa, > Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > Cece says-Tome de Burgos is my ancestor and Manuel de Viana (de Caires) is > his son in law-married to his daughter Antonia. > I don't see any familial relationship to Diogo Dias yet, though it may be > there - do you? > I don't see any either. Maybe they did not have any. We already discussed the Burgos, I think. They had a link with the Calaças, And they were most probably from Spain. regards, Miguel > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:24 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > Miguel > > You keep up like this and I am going to have to get part of the family > will! > > I have heard of the Duke but I don't know or remember where Praça de > Saldanha in Lisbon is. However, may I accept your invitation, and God > willing or "Oxalá que tenhamos boa saúde e tempo" and we shall meet for a > celebration. > > On the Duke you are going to have to work that line for me. > It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His grandson > António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the Ferreiras, > but it seems odd. > On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, Manuel de > Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > José, waiting for that manzanillo > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:43 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > Ok. José- > > So we have one more couple of ancestors in common! > > > The name is Pedro. > I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo Dias > (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > Shall we meet for a coffee and a cup of manzanillo in Praça de Saldanha to > celebrate? > > The Duke is still our cousin, after all ; -) > > Bitório was written according to the Northern (North of Portugal) accent. > They still say baca for vaca, bino for vinho. And Bitório for Vitório or > Vitorino. > > So he is Vitório or Vitorino Pires. Though the old and "wrong" (wrong for > southerners) Bitório is endearing. > > Miguel > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > And... > > > > On Dias Saldanha ( can't decipher his first name) who married Ana > > Henriques, but I can't find that certificate, his son is Diogo Dias > > who marries Maria Ferreira in Caniço, 1651, 902, 225V. > > > > On Filipa Do Quintal, this is how it is spelled in their daughters' > > marriage certificate (Ana Pires) how do you spell her husband's name? > > Bitorio or is it an old writing for Victorino? > > > > José > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this > incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: 12/03/09 > 07:32:00 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
Miguel/Cecce Re: burgos/viana etc. Children of Maria de Cairos marry into all of these families, i.e. Viana de Cairos etc. At least in my family! José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 9:01 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:06 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > Jose said: It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His > grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the > Ferreiras, but it seems odd. > > Miguel said:I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo > Dias (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > Cece says: Looks like both Diogo and Manuel children decided that their > mothers names were "better", because neither became Dias Saldanhas. Diogo > Dias son is Antonio Ferreira and Manuel Dias son is Matias Andrade -so both > took Moms name instead. > > The point is that both Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias are the sons of Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. So they were really sons of their mothers and fathers, and legitimate Saldanhas. The Dias comes from the g. parent of both Diogo and Manuel - Diogo Dias Saldanha, Ouvidor em Machico m. to D. Mara Catanho, dau, of António Vieira, meirinho, and D. Margarida Catanho. 1.Diogo Saldanha. (Had lands in Santo da Serra,in 149..). 1.2. Digo Saldanha. (Build the church in that "freguesia", around 1520) ..... 1.3. Gui or Diogo Ennes Saldanha m. 1558 Isabel Fernandes (Quite possibly direct descendant of the former), they had: 1.4. Diogo Dias Saldanha m. D. Maria Catanho, had from Concórdia Fernandes (black?): 1.5. Pedro Dias Saldanha m. Ana Henriques,had 1.6. Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias (Saldanha) Matias takes the name from her mother, indeed. The Andrades in that time was a "better" name to use. The Andrades were still on their rise, and the Saldanhas beggining their descent. I wonder why they did not use the Noronha? But once again in that time the Andrade name supplanted the Noronha. Manuel Abranches de Soveral, the well known medieval genealogist once told me that the Henriques name was then prime choice. (Remember that the Noronhas were Henriques de Noronha). Only later the Noronha name - because of the rise of Noronhas to the first rank of nobility . came to be foremost. I know that this may sound a bit far-fetched in your hiper-democratic countries. But the name sensitivity in Portugal was enormous. Still exists, but of course with the spread of education, nowadays the academic titles count more socially than the historical names. Even só, they still carry some weight, but nothing compared with former centuries. Anyway,in the 17 th century (and not only) for the sake of time economy sometimes the priests dropped the last name. In social use it was more simple to be known by name and surname. Or even by name and locality cf, Tristão da Ilha. João da Ponta. Manuel da Fonte., etc. > Jose said: On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e > Sousa, > Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > Cece says-Tome de Burgos is my ancestor and Manuel de Viana (de Caires) is > his son in law-married to his daughter Antonia. > I don't see any familial relationship to Diogo Dias yet, though it may be > there - do you? > I don't see any either. Maybe they did not have any. We already discussed the Burgos, I think. They had a link with the Calaças, And they were most probably from Spain. regards, Miguel > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:24 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > Miguel > > You keep up like this and I am going to have to get part of the family > will! > > I have heard of the Duke but I don't know or remember where Praça de > Saldanha in Lisbon is. However, may I accept your invitation, and God > willing or "Oxalá que tenhamos boa saúde e tempo" and we shall meet for a > celebration. > > On the Duke you are going to have to work that line for me. > It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His grandson > António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the Ferreiras, > but it seems odd. > On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, Manuel de > Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > José, waiting for that manzanillo > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:43 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > Ok. José- > > So we have one more couple of ancestors in common! > > > The name is Pedro. > I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo Dias > (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > Shall we meet for a coffee and a cup of manzanillo in Praça de Saldanha to > celebrate? > > The Duke is still our cousin, after all ; -) > > Bitório was written according to the Northern (North of Portugal) accent. > They still say baca for vaca, bino for vinho. And Bitório for Vitório or > Vitorino. > > So he is Vitório or Vitorino Pires. Though the old and "wrong" (wrong for > southerners) Bitório is endearing. > > Miguel > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > And... > > > > On Dias Saldanha ( can't decipher his first name) who married Ana > > Henriques, but I can't find that certificate, his son is Diogo Dias > > who marries Maria Ferreira in Caniço, 1651, 902, 225V. > > > > On Filipa Do Quintal, this is how it is spelled in their daughters' > > marriage certificate (Ana Pires) how do you spell her husband's name? > > Bitorio or is it an old writing for Victorino? > > > > José > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this > incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: 12/03/09 > 07:32:00 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message