José, Yes, indeed. The Braganças. For instance of all the sons that D.João VI and Carlota Joaquina had, only one seems to have been really his son. This happened during the times of Napoleon, the fiery emperor. In several books of historians (both brazilian and Portuguese) there are passages inquiring who might have been the father of Dom Miguel: the gardener? The Marquis of Marialva? An anon? problem with Ana Henriques is that Henriques, is a rather common name. But I think the methodology for finding her that you're using is Ok. Check all the Ana Henriques of that time (and place, in this case Madeira) and see whether one of them is a widow. Because there should exist a register of the marriage of Pedro Dias and Ana Henriques. Anyway Ana Henriques and Pedro Dias Saldanha married around 160 and 1622...) So she is certainlyh not the Ana Henriques that marries your ancestor Sebastião Dias. But the second Ana H. married to a Francisco (Francisco who?) could fit, chronologically speaking. João de Abreu her father could be João de Abreu Henriques, there were some Abreus Henriques, especially from Cãmara de Lobos. Paulo being a descendant of these Henriques (I suppose) as well of the others (the Gomes Henriques) may know something about this. I am going to ask for Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias (Saldanha) baptism certificates. On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > Let's not forget the Braganças... > Please let me know if you get anywhere with Ana Henriques. Note that there > is a Ana Henriques who is a window by 1662. She marries Sebastião Dias, > Caniço, 1662, 902, 239vo. I have that certificate, because Sebastião is a > brother to my ancestor Jorge Dias and my great (7) grandfather Inácio > Fernandes, if I have got all of this correct!. > There is a Ana Henriques married to Francisco sometime in 1640's. She must > be the same one. She is the daughter of João de Abreu and Angela Rodrigues. > I can't find this marriage in Caniço. There is João de Abreu married to > Angela Lopes in Arco da Calheta in 1617. > Is that Angela, a Lopes de Sá? > In 1676 Sebastião's brother João marries Maria de Santiago who is said to > be a daughter of Ana Heriques (Francisco is dead at this time) so it seems > that it is from her first marriage. > Our Ana is married to Saldanha sometime in 1625. Can you make a connection? > I said above that I estimate her marriage between 1600 and 162...But I still can+t make a connection. Thanks for the input, it remains a possibility. Best regards,, Miguel > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 4:35 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) > > José, > > However bastard lines were quite common, even the Portuguese Royal House, > had bastards who became Kings (Like D. João I, the first of the Avis line). > In the Case of noble lines, like the Saldanhas,bastards would not have > sucxh > delicate feelings for the other legitimate sons, and they would not > hesitate > in using that name. (that was in some sort a redemption from being > bastards) > - And they were legal Saldanhas, anyway., because there was not at all any > discirmination. If your father had such and such a name, the children could > and would use it regardless of the mother. As was the case with Pedro Dias > Saldanha who used the full and traditional name of the Saldanha's. Just > remember that it was an archi.patriarchal society. The ma's line was the > line tat counted. The mother's line only counted if she was noble. > > Anyway what I´m now looking for is from what family was Ana Henriques, his > wife (the wife iof Pedro Dias de Saldanha). > > As Manuel Dias (Saldanha) marriage with Maria de Andrada, descendant of the > Noronha, proves, the Saldanhas, even bastards , could afford marriages with > descendants of the" Capitão Donatário", which means the highest nobility in > Madeira. It was a small Island. Everyone knew its place. These things meant > a lot in these days. Status was measured and transmitted in the minutest > way. Democracy and concepts (and practice) of social equality would only > come 4 centuries later. Even so, even in our days, one cannot say that > nowadays it's all utopic and flowery. Other social barriers, others > snobbishness have arised. > > > > > > > > > > > > i > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > On the Saldanhas...still > > The fact is that our Pedro Dias Saldanha came from a bastard line. so > they > > weren't 'legal" Saldanhas. I am not sure that the other children would > > appreciate that. That may explain why they dropped the Saldanha name. > > > > José > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 10:56 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) > > > > OK. I retrieved the Sousas from Ribeira Grande, > > Miguel de Castro Henriques to prt-madeira > > show details Jan 22 > > > > To all who descend from the Burgos, > > > > Manuel César Furtado, a genealogist who knows a lot about Açores > genealogy > > and medieval genealogy, kindly sent me this. > > > > Check the names in bold. > > > > Remember that Jerónimo de Sousa's, from Ribeira Grande, S.Miguel, Açores, > ( > > m. Maria de Sá) parents were Simão Martins and Leonor de Sousa. > > > > It might be possible that Leonor Manuel is the mother of our Leonor de > > Sousa. > > Cronologically and topologically it's quite fitting. > > > > > > Then Simoa Martins married to Pedro Jorge and owner of a land with "foro" > > could be the mother of Simâo Martins, husband of Leonor de Sousa. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CAPÍTULO 132.º > > DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE IREZA DE SOUSA > > § 1.º > > 1 - Ireza de Sousa, natural da Irlanda, no dizer de Frutuoso, e dama da > > rainha D. Leonor (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § I). Casou em Portugal > com > > um fidalgo, cujo nome Frutuoso não soube, o qual era morador em Souzel, > > donde veio para a Ilha de S. Miguel por matar um corregedor, fixando > > residência com sua mulher em Vila Franca e depois no Telhal da Lomba da > > Ribeira Grande. Ireza de Sousa e seu marido vieram para esta Ilha no > tempo > > do Capitão Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. > > Tiveram: > > 2 - João de Sousa, que esteve em África no tempo de el-rei D. Manuel, > onde > > foi armado Cavaleiro (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § III e V). Casou com > > Isabel Alvares, mulher nobre. > > Tiveram: > > 3 - Baltazar Vaz de Sousa, foi morador na Ribeira Grande, ao Telhal e > > morreu > > em Porto Seguro, no Brasil (Vide os seus feitos no Cap.º XXIV do Livro IV > > das Saudades da Terra, e também no Cap.º LXI do mesmo Livro, onde se vê > que > > era magarefe). Sua mulher morreu na freguesia da Matriz da Ribeira Grande > a > > 13.4.1654 com testamento, sendo testamenteiro seu filho João de Sousa. > > Casou > > com Leonor Manuel. > > Tiveram: > > 4 - Nuno de Sousa, Capitão de ordenanças na Ribeira Grande, aí morador e > em > > S. Pedro da Ribeira Seca onde morreu a 11.4.1610 (Frutuoso, Livro IV, > Cap.º > > XXIV § VIII e Cap.º XLVI § II). De um livro da Misericórdia de Ponta > > Delgada > > de 1614, consta que os herdeiros de Nuno de Sousa, da Ribeira Grande, > devem > > há muito tempo à Misericórdia de Ponta Delgada um foro e são elas as > > seguintes: Bárbara de Paiva, Isabel Paim, Madalena de Paiva e Heitor > > Fernandes, genro. A terra deste foro tinha sido de Simoa Martins, mulher > de > > Pedro Jorge. Casou a primeira vez com Catarina de Moura, irmã do Padre > > Antonio de Moura, de Ponta Delgada, a qual morreu na freguesia Matriz da > > Ribeira Grande a 20.4.1560 com testamento em que deixa a terça a suas > > filhas > > e nomeando o marido testamenteiro. Casou a segunda vez com Francisca de > > Paiva . > > Teve da primeira mulher: > > 5 - Jerônima de Sousa, que casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande a 22.1.1569 > > com > > Brás do Rego Rodovalho. > > > > CAPÍTULO 18.º > > DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE GONÇALO DO REGO, O VELHO > > § 1.º > > 1 - Gonçalo do Rego, o Velho, veio para S. Miguel no tempo do Capitão > > Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. Era natural do Porto e veio de lá > > parece > > que já viúvo da primeira mulher e com três filhos dela (Frutuoso, Livro > IV, > > Cap.º XXII). Casou a segunda vez com Isabel Pires. > > Teve do 2.º casamento: > > 2 - Manuel do Rego. Casou com Maria Jerônima. > > Tiveram: > > 3 - Braz do Rego Rodovalho, casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande, a > 22.1.1569, > > com Jerônima de Sousa. > > Tiveram: > > 4 - Gonçalo do Rego de Sousa, que consta do termo de óbito de sua tia > > Beatriz de Sousa (falecida em S. Pedro Ribeira Grande a 1.2.1611), de > quem > > foi herdeiro. Aí se diz ser filho de Jerônima de Sousa. Faleceu na Matriz > > de > > Ponta Delgada a 23.10.1659. Casou Maria da Cunha Teixeira, falecida na > > Matriz de Ponta Delgada a 10.2.1633, filha de Luís Martins e Isabel da > > Cunha. > > Tiveram: > > 5 - Calisto do Rego e Sousa, batizado na Matriz de Ponta Delgada a > > 18.10.1627. Casou em S. Pedro de Ponta Delgada, a 10.2.1649, com Maria > > Cabral de Melo. > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Miguel/Cecce > > > Re: burgos/viana etc. > > > Children of Maria de Cairos marry into all of these families, i.e. > Viana > > > de Cairos etc. At least in my family! > > > > > > José > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 9:01 AM > > > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:06 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > Jose said: It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. > His > > > > grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know > the > > > > Ferreiras, but it seems odd. > > > > > > > > Miguel said:I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from > > > Diogo > > > > Dias (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > > > > > > > Cece says: Looks like both Diogo and Manuel children decided that > their > > > > mothers names were "better", because neither became Dias Saldanhas. > > Diogo > > > > Dias son is Antonio Ferreira and Manuel Dias son is Matias Andrade > -so > > > both > > > > took Moms name instead. > > > > > > > > The point is that both Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias are the sons of > Pedro > > > Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. So they were really sons of their > > mothers > > > and fathers, and legitimate Saldanhas. The Dias comes from the g. > parent > > of > > > both Diogo and Manuel - Diogo Dias Saldanha, Ouvidor em Machico m. to > D. > > > Mara Catanho, dau, of António Vieira, meirinho, and D. Margarida > Catanho. > > > > > > 1.Diogo Saldanha. (Had lands in Santo da Serra,in 149..). > > > 1.2. Digo Saldanha. (Build the church in that "freguesia", around 1520) > > > ..... > > > 1.3. Gui or Diogo Ennes Saldanha m. 1558 Isabel Fernandes (Quite > possibly > > > direct descendant of the former), they had: > > > 1.4. Diogo Dias Saldanha m. D. Maria Catanho, had from Concórdia > > Fernandes > > > (black?): > > > 1.5. Pedro Dias Saldanha m. Ana Henriques,had > > > 1.6. Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias (Saldanha) > > > > > > > > > > > > Matias takes the name from her mother, indeed. The Andrades in that > time > > > was > > > a "better" name to use. The Andrades were still on their rise, and the > > > Saldanhas beggining their descent. I wonder why they did not use the > > > Noronha? But once again in that time the Andrade name supplanted the > > > Noronha. > > > Manuel Abranches de Soveral, the well known medieval genealogist once > > told > > > me that the Henriques name was then prime choice. (Remember that the > > > Noronhas were Henriques de Noronha). Only later the Noronha name - > > because > > > of the rise of Noronhas to the first rank of nobility . came to be > > > foremost. > > > > > > I know that this may sound a bit far-fetched in your hiper-democratic > > > countries. But the name sensitivity in Portugal was enormous. Still > > exists, > > > but of course with the spread of education, nowadays the academic > titles > > > count more socially than the historical names. Even só, they still > carry > > > some weight, but nothing compared with former centuries. > > > > > > Anyway,in the 17 th century (and not only) for the sake of time economy > > > sometimes the priests dropped the last name. In social use it was more > > > simple to be known by name and surname. Or even by name and locality > cf, > > > Tristão da Ilha. João da Ponta. Manuel da Fonte., etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jose said: On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e > > > > Sousa, > > > > Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > > > > > > > Cece says-Tome de Burgos is my ancestor and Manuel de Viana (de > Caires) > > > is > > > > his son in law-married to his daughter Antonia. > > > > I don't see any familial relationship to Diogo Dias yet, though it > may > > be > > > > there - do you? > > > > > > > > > > I don't see any either. Maybe they did not have any. We already > discussed > > > the Burgos, I think. They had a link with the Calaças, And they were > most > > > probably from Spain. > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, > Jose > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:24 AM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > You keep up like this and I am going to have to get part of the > family > > > > will! > > > > > > > > I have heard of the Duke but I don't know or remember where Praça de > > > > Saldanha in Lisbon is. However, may I accept your invitation, and God > > > > willing or "Oxalá que tenhamos boa saúde e tempo" and we shall meet > for > > a > > > > celebration. > > > > > > > > On the Duke you are going to have to work that line for me. > > > > It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His grandson > > > > António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the > > Ferreiras, > > > > but it seems odd. > > > > On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, > > Manuel > > > de > > > > Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > > > > > > > José, waiting for that manzanillo > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > Castro > > > > Henriques > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:43 AM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > > > Ok. José- > > > > > > > > So we have one more couple of ancestors in common! > > > > > > > > > > > > The name is Pedro. > > > > I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo Dias > > > > (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > > > > > > > Shall we meet for a coffee and a cup of manzanillo in Praça de > Saldanha > > > to > > > > celebrate? > > > > > > > > The Duke is still our cousin, after all ; -) > > > > > > > > Bitório was written according to the Northern (North of Portugal) > > accent. > > > > They still say baca for vaca, bino for vinho. And Bitório for Vitório > > or > > > > Vitorino. > > > > > > > > So he is Vitório or Vitorino Pires. Though the old and "wrong" (wrong > > for > > > > southerners) Bitório is endearing. > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > And... > > > > > > > > > > On Dias Saldanha ( can't decipher his first name) who married Ana > > > > > Henriques, but I can't find that certificate, his son is Diogo Dias > > > > > who marries Maria Ferreira in Caniço, 1651, 902, 225V. > > > > > > > > > > On Filipa Do Quintal, this is how it is spelled in their daughters' > > > > > marriage certificate (Ana Pires) how do you spell her husband's > name? > > > > > Bitorio or is it an old writing for Victorino? > > > > > > > > > > José > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in > > this > > > > incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: > > > 12/03/09 > > > > 07:32:00 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Miguel, Didn't the Braganças eventually marry into the Bourbons any way? At least the Brazilian line. No, the one who marries Sebastião is a widow I think of Francisco. The one who marries João must be a second one, in this case.We are not counting the one married to Pedro. Anyway, there are only about 6 Ana Henriques between 1580 and 1680, and I know of at least 3 of them and that is not counting the one married to Pedro Saldanha. Henriques is a common name, but these seem to be within Caniço or Santa Cruz. Let me know what you find out from the baptism certificates. José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 11:07 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) José, Yes, indeed. The Braganças. For instance of all the sons that D.João VI and Carlota Joaquina had, only one seems to have been really his son. This happened during the times of Napoleon, the fiery emperor. In several books of historians (both brazilian and Portuguese) there are passages inquiring who might have been the father of Dom Miguel: the gardener? The Marquis of Marialva? An anon? problem with Ana Henriques is that Henriques, is a rather common name. But I think the methodology for finding her that you're using is Ok. Check all the Ana Henriques of that time (and place, in this case Madeira) and see whether one of them is a widow. Because there should exist a register of the marriage of Pedro Dias and Ana Henriques. Anyway Ana Henriques and Pedro Dias Saldanha married around 160 and 1622...) So she is certainlyh not the Ana Henriques that marries your ancestor Sebastião Dias. But the second Ana H. married to a Francisco (Francisco who?) could fit, chronologically speaking. João de Abreu her father could be João de Abreu Henriques, there were some Abreus Henriques, especially from Cãmara de Lobos. Paulo being a descendant of these Henriques (I suppose) as well of the others (the Gomes Henriques) may know something about this. I am going to ask for Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias (Saldanha) baptism certificates. On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > Let's not forget the Braganças... > Please let me know if you get anywhere with Ana Henriques. Note that there > is a Ana Henriques who is a window by 1662. She marries Sebastião Dias, > Caniço, 1662, 902, 239vo. I have that certificate, because Sebastião is a > brother to my ancestor Jorge Dias and my great (7) grandfather Inácio > Fernandes, if I have got all of this correct!. > There is a Ana Henriques married to Francisco sometime in 1640's. She must > be the same one. She is the daughter of João de Abreu and Angela Rodrigues. > I can't find this marriage in Caniço. There is João de Abreu married to > Angela Lopes in Arco da Calheta in 1617. > Is that Angela, a Lopes de Sá? > In 1676 Sebastião's brother João marries Maria de Santiago who is said to > be a daughter of Ana Heriques (Francisco is dead at this time) so it seems > that it is from her first marriage. > Our Ana is married to Saldanha sometime in 1625. Can you make a connection? > I said above that I estimate her marriage between 1600 and 162...But I still can+t make a connection. Thanks for the input, it remains a possibility. Best regards,, Miguel > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 4:35 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) > > José, > > However bastard lines were quite common, even the Portuguese Royal House, > had bastards who became Kings (Like D. João I, the first of the Avis line). > In the Case of noble lines, like the Saldanhas,bastards would not have > sucxh > delicate feelings for the other legitimate sons, and they would not > hesitate > in using that name. (that was in some sort a redemption from being > bastards) > - And they were legal Saldanhas, anyway., because there was not at all any > discirmination. If your father had such and such a name, the children could > and would use it regardless of the mother. As was the case with Pedro Dias > Saldanha who used the full and traditional name of the Saldanha's. Just > remember that it was an archi.patriarchal society. The ma's line was the > line tat counted. The mother's line only counted if she was noble. > > Anyway what I´m now looking for is from what family was Ana Henriques, his > wife (the wife iof Pedro Dias de Saldanha). > > As Manuel Dias (Saldanha) marriage with Maria de Andrada, descendant of the > Noronha, proves, the Saldanhas, even bastards , could afford marriages with > descendants of the" Capitão Donatário", which means the highest nobility in > Madeira. It was a small Island. Everyone knew its place. These things meant > a lot in these days. Status was measured and transmitted in the minutest > way. Democracy and concepts (and practice) of social equality would only > come 4 centuries later. Even so, even in our days, one cannot say that > nowadays it's all utopic and flowery. Other social barriers, others > snobbishness have arised. > > > > > > > > > > > > i > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > On the Saldanhas...still > > The fact is that our Pedro Dias Saldanha came from a bastard line. so > they > > weren't 'legal" Saldanhas. I am not sure that the other children would > > appreciate that. That may explain why they dropped the Saldanha name. > > > > José > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 10:56 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) > > > > OK. I retrieved the Sousas from Ribeira Grande, > > Miguel de Castro Henriques to prt-madeira > > show details Jan 22 > > > > To all who descend from the Burgos, > > > > Manuel César Furtado, a genealogist who knows a lot about Açores > genealogy > > and medieval genealogy, kindly sent me this. > > > > Check the names in bold. > > > > Remember that Jerónimo de Sousa's, from Ribeira Grande, S.Miguel, Açores, > ( > > m. Maria de Sá) parents were Simão Martins and Leonor de Sousa. > > > > It might be possible that Leonor Manuel is the mother of our Leonor de > > Sousa. > > Cronologically and topologically it's quite fitting. > > > > > > Then Simoa Martins married to Pedro Jorge and owner of a land with "foro" > > could be the mother of Simâo Martins, husband of Leonor de Sousa. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CAPÍTULO 132.º > > DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE IREZA DE SOUSA > > § 1.º > > 1 - Ireza de Sousa, natural da Irlanda, no dizer de Frutuoso, e dama da > > rainha D. Leonor (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § I). Casou em Portugal > com > > um fidalgo, cujo nome Frutuoso não soube, o qual era morador em Souzel, > > donde veio para a Ilha de S. Miguel por matar um corregedor, fixando > > residência com sua mulher em Vila Franca e depois no Telhal da Lomba da > > Ribeira Grande. Ireza de Sousa e seu marido vieram para esta Ilha no > tempo > > do Capitão Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. > > Tiveram: > > 2 - João de Sousa, que esteve em África no tempo de el-rei D. Manuel, > onde > > foi armado Cavaleiro (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § III e V). Casou com > > Isabel Alvares, mulher nobre. > > Tiveram: > > 3 - Baltazar Vaz de Sousa, foi morador na Ribeira Grande, ao Telhal e > > morreu > > em Porto Seguro, no Brasil (Vide os seus feitos no Cap.º XXIV do Livro IV > > das Saudades da Terra, e também no Cap.º LXI do mesmo Livro, onde se vê > que > > era magarefe). Sua mulher morreu na freguesia da Matriz da Ribeira Grande > a > > 13.4.1654 com testamento, sendo testamenteiro seu filho João de Sousa. > > Casou > > com Leonor Manuel. > > Tiveram: > > 4 - Nuno de Sousa, Capitão de ordenanças na Ribeira Grande, aí morador e > em > > S. Pedro da Ribeira Seca onde morreu a 11.4.1610 (Frutuoso, Livro IV, > Cap.º > > XXIV § VIII e Cap.º XLVI § II). De um livro da Misericórdia de Ponta > > Delgada > > de 1614, consta que os herdeiros de Nuno de Sousa, da Ribeira Grande, > devem > > há muito tempo à Misericórdia de Ponta Delgada um foro e são elas as > > seguintes: Bárbara de Paiva, Isabel Paim, Madalena de Paiva e Heitor > > Fernandes, genro. A terra deste foro tinha sido de Simoa Martins, mulher > de > > Pedro Jorge. Casou a primeira vez com Catarina de Moura, irmã do Padre > > Antonio de Moura, de Ponta Delgada, a qual morreu na freguesia Matriz da > > Ribeira Grande a 20.4.1560 com testamento em que deixa a terça a suas > > filhas > > e nomeando o marido testamenteiro. Casou a segunda vez com Francisca de > > Paiva . > > Teve da primeira mulher: > > 5 - Jerônima de Sousa, que casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande a 22.1.1569 > > com > > Brás do Rego Rodovalho. > > > > CAPÍTULO 18.º > > DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE GONÇALO DO REGO, O VELHO > > § 1.º > > 1 - Gonçalo do Rego, o Velho, veio para S. Miguel no tempo do Capitão > > Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. Era natural do Porto e veio de lá > > parece > > que já viúvo da primeira mulher e com três filhos dela (Frutuoso, Livro > IV, > > Cap.º XXII). Casou a segunda vez com Isabel Pires. > > Teve do 2.º casamento: > > 2 - Manuel do Rego. Casou com Maria Jerônima. > > Tiveram: > > 3 - Braz do Rego Rodovalho, casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande, a > 22.1.1569, > > com Jerônima de Sousa. > > Tiveram: > > 4 - Gonçalo do Rego de Sousa, que consta do termo de óbito de sua tia > > Beatriz de Sousa (falecida em S. Pedro Ribeira Grande a 1.2.1611), de > quem > > foi herdeiro. Aí se diz ser filho de Jerônima de Sousa. Faleceu na Matriz > > de > > Ponta Delgada a 23.10.1659. Casou Maria da Cunha Teixeira, falecida na > > Matriz de Ponta Delgada a 10.2.1633, filha de Luís Martins e Isabel da > > Cunha. > > Tiveram: > > 5 - Calisto do Rego e Sousa, batizado na Matriz de Ponta Delgada a > > 18.10.1627. Casou em S. Pedro de Ponta Delgada, a 10.2.1649, com Maria > > Cabral de Melo. > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Miguel/Cecce > > > Re: burgos/viana etc. > > > Children of Maria de Cairos marry into all of these families, i.e. > Viana > > > de Cairos etc. At least in my family! > > > > > > José > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 9:01 AM > > > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:06 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > Jose said: It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. > His > > > > grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know > the > > > > Ferreiras, but it seems odd. > > > > > > > > Miguel said:I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from > > > Diogo > > > > Dias (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > > > > > > > Cece says: Looks like both Diogo and Manuel children decided that > their > > > > mothers names were "better", because neither became Dias Saldanhas. > > Diogo > > > > Dias son is Antonio Ferreira and Manuel Dias son is Matias Andrade > -so > > > both > > > > took Moms name instead. > > > > > > > > The point is that both Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias are the sons of > Pedro > > > Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. So they were really sons of their > > mothers > > > and fathers, and legitimate Saldanhas. The Dias comes from the g. > parent > > of > > > both Diogo and Manuel - Diogo Dias Saldanha, Ouvidor em Machico m. to > D. > > > Mara Catanho, dau, of António Vieira, meirinho, and D. Margarida > Catanho. > > > > > > 1.Diogo Saldanha. (Had lands in Santo da Serra,in 149..). > > > 1.2. Digo Saldanha. (Build the church in that "freguesia", around 1520) > > > ..... > > > 1.3. Gui or Diogo Ennes Saldanha m. 1558 Isabel Fernandes (Quite > possibly > > > direct descendant of the former), they had: > > > 1.4. Diogo Dias Saldanha m. D. Maria Catanho, had from Concórdia > > Fernandes > > > (black?): > > > 1.5. Pedro Dias Saldanha m. Ana Henriques,had > > > 1.6. Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias (Saldanha) > > > > > > > > > > > > Matias takes the name from her mother, indeed. The Andrades in that > time > > > was > > > a "better" name to use. The Andrades were still on their rise, and the > > > Saldanhas beggining their descent. I wonder why they did not use the > > > Noronha? But once again in that time the Andrade name supplanted the > > > Noronha. > > > Manuel Abranches de Soveral, the well known medieval genealogist once > > told > > > me that the Henriques name was then prime choice. (Remember that the > > > Noronhas were Henriques de Noronha). Only later the Noronha name - > > because > > > of the rise of Noronhas to the first rank of nobility . came to be > > > foremost. > > > > > > I know that this may sound a bit far-fetched in your hiper-democratic > > > countries. But the name sensitivity in Portugal was enormous. Still > > exists, > > > but of course with the spread of education, nowadays the academic > titles > > > count more socially than the historical names. Even só, they still > carry > > > some weight, but nothing compared with former centuries. > > > > > > Anyway,in the 17 th century (and not only) for the sake of time economy > > > sometimes the priests dropped the last name. In social use it was more > > > simple to be known by name and surname. Or even by name and locality > cf, > > > Tristão da Ilha. João da Ponta. Manuel da Fonte., etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jose said: On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e > > > > Sousa, > > > > Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > > > > > > > Cece says-Tome de Burgos is my ancestor and Manuel de Viana (de > Caires) > > > is > > > > his son in law-married to his daughter Antonia. > > > > I don't see any familial relationship to Diogo Dias yet, though it > may > > be > > > > there - do you? > > > > > > > > > > I don't see any either. Maybe they did not have any. We already > discussed > > > the Burgos, I think. They had a link with the Calaças, And they were > most > > > probably from Spain. > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, > Jose > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:24 AM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > You keep up like this and I am going to have to get part of the > family > > > > will! > > > > > > > > I have heard of the Duke but I don't know or remember where Praça de > > > > Saldanha in Lisbon is. However, may I accept your invitation, and God > > > > willing or "Oxalá que tenhamos boa saúde e tempo" and we shall meet > for > > a > > > > celebration. > > > > > > > > On the Duke you are going to have to work that line for me. > > > > It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His grandson > > > > António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the > > Ferreiras, > > > > but it seems odd. > > > > On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, > > Manuel > > > de > > > > Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > > > > > > > José, waiting for that manzanillo > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > Castro > > > > Henriques > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:43 AM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > > > Ok. José- > > > > > > > > So we have one more couple of ancestors in common! > > > > > > > > > > > > The name is Pedro. > > > > I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo Dias > > > > (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > > > > > > > Shall we meet for a coffee and a cup of manzanillo in Praça de > Saldanha > > > to > > > > celebrate? > > > > > > > > The Duke is still our cousin, after all ; -) > > > > > > > > Bitório was written according to the Northern (North of Portugal) > > accent. > > > > They still say baca for vaca, bino for vinho. And Bitório for Vitório > > or > > > > Vitorino. > > > > > > > > So he is Vitório or Vitorino Pires. Though the old and "wrong" (wrong > > for > > > > southerners) Bitório is endearing. > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > And... > > > > > > > > > > On Dias Saldanha ( can't decipher his first name) who married Ana > > > > > Henriques, but I can't find that certificate, his son is Diogo Dias > > > > > who marries Maria Ferreira in Caniço, 1651, 902, 225V. > > > > > > > > > > On Filipa Do Quintal, this is how it is spelled in their daughters' > > > > > marriage certificate (Ana Pires) how do you spell her husband's > name? > > > > > Bitorio or is it an old writing for Victorino? > > > > > > > > > > José > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in > > this > > > > incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: > > > 12/03/09 > > > > 07:32:00 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message