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    1. Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos)
    2. Miguel de Castro Henriques

    3. Yes, I descend from Jerónimo too. He certainly had some status. (Curiously Jerónimo de Sousa is precisley the name of the current Communist Party leader, in Portugal, a member of Parliament, a very well known figure, though I do not share his views, a nice and popular man.) Anyway this link I send is not yet fully confirmed by documents . It's an hypothesis, a sound one, and chronologically possible. There is also the fact that these were the Sousas from Ribeira Grande, and apparently there were no others, and Jerónimo de Sousa was from Ribeira Grande. Then we have the Jerónima de Sousa and knowing that surnames and names repeat themselves in the same family, and that people take (even today) the names of the father or mother, Jerónimo is a sound candidate for that Sousa of Ribeira Grande, family. On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Anyway, this is our Irish link! In part it would explain why Jerónimo comes > to Caniço and marries a Sá, a whose daughter marries a Burgos and > granddaughter marries a Viana de Cairos. And this is just my family! > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 10:56 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) > > OK. I retrieved the Sousas from Ribeira Grande, > Miguel de Castro Henriques to prt-madeira > show details Jan 22 > > To all who descend from the Burgos, > > Manuel César Furtado, a genealogist who knows a lot about Açores genealogy > and medieval genealogy, kindly sent me this. > > Check the names in bold. > > Remember that Jerónimo de Sousa's, from Ribeira Grande, S.Miguel, Açores, ( > m. Maria de Sá) parents were Simão Martins and Leonor de Sousa. > > It might be possible that Leonor Manuel is the mother of our Leonor de > Sousa. > Cronologically and topologically it's quite fitting. > > > Then Simoa Martins married to Pedro Jorge and owner of a land with "foro" > could be the mother of Simâo Martins, husband of Leonor de Sousa. > > > > > > > CAPÍTULO 132.º > DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE IREZA DE SOUSA > § 1.º > 1 - Ireza de Sousa, natural da Irlanda, no dizer de Frutuoso, e dama da > rainha D. Leonor (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § I). Casou em Portugal com > um fidalgo, cujo nome Frutuoso não soube, o qual era morador em Souzel, > donde veio para a Ilha de S. Miguel por matar um corregedor, fixando > residência com sua mulher em Vila Franca e depois no Telhal da Lomba da > Ribeira Grande. Ireza de Sousa e seu marido vieram para esta Ilha no tempo > do Capitão Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. > Tiveram: > 2 - João de Sousa, que esteve em África no tempo de el-rei D. Manuel, onde > foi armado Cavaleiro (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § III e V). Casou com > Isabel Alvares, mulher nobre. > Tiveram: > 3 - Baltazar Vaz de Sousa, foi morador na Ribeira Grande, ao Telhal e > morreu > em Porto Seguro, no Brasil (Vide os seus feitos no Cap.º XXIV do Livro IV > das Saudades da Terra, e também no Cap.º LXI do mesmo Livro, onde se vê que > era magarefe). Sua mulher morreu na freguesia da Matriz da Ribeira Grande a > 13.4.1654 com testamento, sendo testamenteiro seu filho João de Sousa. > Casou > com Leonor Manuel. > Tiveram: > 4 - Nuno de Sousa, Capitão de ordenanças na Ribeira Grande, aí morador e em > S. Pedro da Ribeira Seca onde morreu a 11.4.1610 (Frutuoso, Livro IV, Cap.º > XXIV § VIII e Cap.º XLVI § II). De um livro da Misericórdia de Ponta > Delgada > de 1614, consta que os herdeiros de Nuno de Sousa, da Ribeira Grande, devem > há muito tempo à Misericórdia de Ponta Delgada um foro e são elas as > seguintes: Bárbara de Paiva, Isabel Paim, Madalena de Paiva e Heitor > Fernandes, genro. A terra deste foro tinha sido de Simoa Martins, mulher de > Pedro Jorge. Casou a primeira vez com Catarina de Moura, irmã do Padre > Antonio de Moura, de Ponta Delgada, a qual morreu na freguesia Matriz da > Ribeira Grande a 20.4.1560 com testamento em que deixa a terça a suas > filhas > e nomeando o marido testamenteiro. Casou a segunda vez com Francisca de > Paiva . > Teve da primeira mulher: > 5 - Jerônima de Sousa, que casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande a 22.1.1569 > com > Brás do Rego Rodovalho. > > CAPÍTULO 18.º > DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE GONÇALO DO REGO, O VELHO > § 1.º > 1 - Gonçalo do Rego, o Velho, veio para S. Miguel no tempo do Capitão > Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. Era natural do Porto e veio de lá > parece > que já viúvo da primeira mulher e com três filhos dela (Frutuoso, Livro IV, > Cap.º XXII). Casou a segunda vez com Isabel Pires. > Teve do 2.º casamento: > 2 - Manuel do Rego. Casou com Maria Jerônima. > Tiveram: > 3 - Braz do Rego Rodovalho, casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande, a 22.1.1569, > com Jerônima de Sousa. > Tiveram: > 4 - Gonçalo do Rego de Sousa, que consta do termo de óbito de sua tia > Beatriz de Sousa (falecida em S. Pedro Ribeira Grande a 1.2.1611), de quem > foi herdeiro. Aí se diz ser filho de Jerônima de Sousa. Faleceu na Matriz > de > Ponta Delgada a 23.10.1659. Casou Maria da Cunha Teixeira, falecida na > Matriz de Ponta Delgada a 10.2.1633, filha de Luís Martins e Isabel da > Cunha. > Tiveram: > 5 - Calisto do Rego e Sousa, batizado na Matriz de Ponta Delgada a > 18.10.1627. Casou em S. Pedro de Ponta Delgada, a 10.2.1649, com Maria > Cabral de Melo. > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel/Cecce > > Re: burgos/viana etc. > > Children of Maria de Cairos marry into all of these families, i.e. Viana > > de Cairos etc. At least in my family! > > > > José > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 9:01 AM > > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:06 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Jose said: It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His > > > grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the > > > Ferreiras, but it seems odd. > > > > > > Miguel said:I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from > > Diogo > > > Dias (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > > > > > Cece says: Looks like both Diogo and Manuel children decided that their > > > mothers names were "better", because neither became Dias Saldanhas. > Diogo > > > Dias son is Antonio Ferreira and Manuel Dias son is Matias Andrade -so > > both > > > took Moms name instead. > > > > > > The point is that both Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias are the sons of Pedro > > Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. So they were really sons of their > mothers > > and fathers, and legitimate Saldanhas. The Dias comes from the g. parent > of > > both Diogo and Manuel - Diogo Dias Saldanha, Ouvidor em Machico m. to D. > > Mara Catanho, dau, of António Vieira, meirinho, and D. Margarida Catanho. > > > > 1.Diogo Saldanha. (Had lands in Santo da Serra,in 149..). > > 1.2. Digo Saldanha. (Build the church in that "freguesia", around 1520) > > ..... > > 1.3. Gui or Diogo Ennes Saldanha m. 1558 Isabel Fernandes (Quite possibly > > direct descendant of the former), they had: > > 1.4. Diogo Dias Saldanha m. D. Maria Catanho, had from Concórdia > Fernandes > > (black?): > > 1.5. Pedro Dias Saldanha m. Ana Henriques,had > > 1.6. Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias (Saldanha) > > > > > > > > Matias takes the name from her mother, indeed. The Andrades in that time > > was > > a "better" name to use. The Andrades were still on their rise, and the > > Saldanhas beggining their descent. I wonder why they did not use the > > Noronha? But once again in that time the Andrade name supplanted the > > Noronha. > > Manuel Abranches de Soveral, the well known medieval genealogist once > told > > me that the Henriques name was then prime choice. (Remember that the > > Noronhas were Henriques de Noronha). Only later the Noronha name - > because > > of the rise of Noronhas to the first rank of nobility . came to be > > foremost. > > > > I know that this may sound a bit far-fetched in your hiper-democratic > > countries. But the name sensitivity in Portugal was enormous. Still > exists, > > but of course with the spread of education, nowadays the academic titles > > count more socially than the historical names. Even só, they still carry > > some weight, but nothing compared with former centuries. > > > > Anyway,in the 17 th century (and not only) for the sake of time economy > > sometimes the priests dropped the last name. In social use it was more > > simple to be known by name and surname. Or even by name and locality cf, > > Tristão da Ilha. João da Ponta. Manuel da Fonte., etc. > > > > > > > > > Jose said: On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e > > > Sousa, > > > Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > > > > > Cece says-Tome de Burgos is my ancestor and Manuel de Viana (de Caires) > > is > > > his son in law-married to his daughter Antonia. > > > I don't see any familial relationship to Diogo Dias yet, though it may > be > > > there - do you? > > > > > > > I don't see any either. Maybe they did not have any. We already discussed > > the Burgos, I think. They had a link with the Calaças, And they were most > > probably from Spain. > > > > regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose > > > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:24 AM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > You keep up like this and I am going to have to get part of the family > > > will! > > > > > > I have heard of the Duke but I don't know or remember where Praça de > > > Saldanha in Lisbon is. However, may I accept your invitation, and God > > > willing or "Oxalá que tenhamos boa saúde e tempo" and we shall meet for > a > > > celebration. > > > > > > On the Duke you are going to have to work that line for me. > > > It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His grandson > > > António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the > Ferreiras, > > > but it seems odd. > > > On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, > Manuel > > de > > > Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > > > > > José, waiting for that manzanillo > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > Castro > > > Henriques > > > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:43 AM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > Ok. José- > > > > > > So we have one more couple of ancestors in common! > > > > > > > > > The name is Pedro. > > > I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo Dias > > > (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > > > > > Shall we meet for a coffee and a cup of manzanillo in Praça de Saldanha > > to > > > celebrate? > > > > > > The Duke is still our cousin, after all ; -) > > > > > > Bitório was written according to the Northern (North of Portugal) > accent. > > > They still say baca for vaca, bino for vinho. And Bitório for Vitório > or > > > Vitorino. > > > > > > So he is Vitório or Vitorino Pires. Though the old and "wrong" (wrong > for > > > southerners) Bitório is endearing. > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > And... > > > > > > > > On Dias Saldanha ( can't decipher his first name) who married Ana > > > > Henriques, but I can't find that certificate, his son is Diogo Dias > > > > who marries Maria Ferreira in Caniço, 1651, 902, 225V. > > > > > > > > On Filipa Do Quintal, this is how it is spelled in their daughters' > > > > marriage certificate (Ana Pires) how do you spell her husband's name? > > > > Bitorio or is it an old writing for Victorino? > > > > > > > > José > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in > this > > > incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: > > 12/03/09 > > > 07:32:00 > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

    12/04/2009 09:57:31
    1. Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos)
    2. Fernandes, Jose

    3. Yes I did note that. Is he nice because is from Alentejo or do you just have to say that because you live in the cradle of communism in Portugal? Just getting you going... José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 11:58 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) Yes, I descend from Jerónimo too. He certainly had some status. (Curiously Jerónimo de Sousa is precisley the name of the current Communist Party leader, in Portugal, a member of Parliament, a very well known figure, though I do not share his views, a nice and popular man.) Anyway this link I send is not yet fully confirmed by documents . It's an hypothesis, a sound one, and chronologically possible. There is also the fact that these were the Sousas from Ribeira Grande, and apparently there were no others, and Jerónimo de Sousa was from Ribeira Grande. Then we have the Jerónima de Sousa and knowing that surnames and names repeat themselves in the same family, and that people take (even today) the names of the father or mother, Jerónimo is a sound candidate for that Sousa of Ribeira Grande, family. On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Anyway, this is our Irish link! In part it would explain why Jerónimo comes > to Caniço and marries a Sá, a whose daughter marries a Burgos and > granddaughter marries a Viana de Cairos. And this is just my family! > > José >

    12/04/2009 05:03:03
    1. Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos)
    2. Miguel de Castro Henriques

    3. Though I live in the cradle of communism I am a notoriously non communist, but Jerónimo is universally appreciated. He is truly a humble and kind man. And we can not forgive him his ideology, at least we can forget it. On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Yes I did note that. Is he nice because is from Alentejo or do you just > have to say that because you live in the cradle of communism in Portugal? > Just getting you going... > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 11:58 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) > > Yes, > > I descend from Jerónimo too. He certainly had some status. (Curiously > Jerónimo de Sousa is precisley the name of the current Communist Party > leader, in Portugal, a member of Parliament, a very well known figure, > though I do not share his views, a nice and popular man.) > > Anyway this link I send is not yet fully confirmed by documents . It's an > hypothesis, a sound one, and chronologically possible. There is also the > fact that these were the Sousas from Ribeira Grande, and apparently there > were no others, and Jerónimo de Sousa was from Ribeira Grande. Then we have > the Jerónima de Sousa and knowing that surnames and names repeat themselves > in the same family, and that people take (even today) the names of the > father or mother, Jerónimo is a sound candidate for that Sousa of Ribeira > Grande, family. > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Anyway, this is our Irish link! In part it would explain why Jerónimo > comes > > to Caniço and marries a Sá, a whose daughter marries a Burgos and > > granddaughter marries a Viana de Cairos. And this is just my family! > > > > José > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

    12/04/2009 10:28:16