OK I knew that was too much in one post ;-) - so I'm gonna break it down and start with the first one: You say "João Fernandes Lordelo m. Isabel Teixeira,, dau, of Tristão Vaz, the first Capitão-Mor. Had one dau and one son: Henrique Fernandes de Lordelo m. Guiomar escórcio, dau of João Drummond and Branca Afonso." Agreed - and the daughters name was Guiomar de Lordelo who married Joao de Freitas Correa amd continue.."There was also a Lopo de Lordelo, Knight, who married a N. Teixeira, according to Pereira de Agrela. This N. Teixeira was the sister of the 3d Captain." I show this Lopo as a brother to Joao Fernandes Lordelo - is that the same as what you show? And are you also saying that he married a N. Teixeira who is the sister of Tristao TEIXEIRA who married Dona Grimaneza CABRAL. If so, she is new to me. I have 4 children listed for Tristao VAZ TEIXEIRA (2nd capitao) and Dona Guiomar de LORDELO. They are Joao Lourenco de Teixeira, Guiterres Teixeira, Dona Violante Teixeira & of course Tristao Teixeira (the 3rd capitao),,,and now this N. Teixeira will make 5. Any more I don't know about? _____ From: Miguel de Castro Henriques [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 8:20 PM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Link to Morgado da Bemposta Hello Cece, I got part of my data from Pereira de Agrela, Clode and Felisberto BM. About Beatriz de Lordelo and her connection to the Teixeiras: João Fernandes Lordelo m. Isabel Teixeira,, dau, of Tristão Vaz, the first Capitão-Mor. Had one dau and one son: Henrique Fernandes de Lordelo m. Guiomar escórcio, dau of João Drummond and Branca Afonso. There was also a Lopo de Lordelo, Knight, who married a N. Teixeira, according to Pereira de Agrela. This N. Teixeira was the sister of the 3d Captain. On other hand according to Clode, Tristão Teixeira, o das Damas, the 2nd Captain married D. Guiomar de Lordelo, probably a sister of his cunhado João Fernandes de Lordelo, and they had issue.. On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 1:31 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: You lost me - it seems almost every one of the posts today have me dancing very closely to someone in my tree...but not quite touching ;-) So allow me to start with your quote below " Beatriz de Lordelo, and this same Beatriz the niece of Tristão Teixeira"... Please show me this connection. And second regarding your quote "* António Fernandes das Covas,( son of Paulo António or António Paulo, a Jewish MD who was extremely rich, had slaves, an "engenho", etc)) married 2 nd time in that very same year Maria de Velosa de Vasconcelos. dau. of Francisco Velosa de Vasconcelos and Maria de Gayas" I also have Antonio Fernandes das Covas and Maria de Velosa de Vasconcelos. But I show Maria to be the daughter of Irvao Teixiera and Dona Maria de Velosa (this from Pelo Conego Meneses Vaz, Teixeiras de Tristao Vaz, Familias da Madeira e Porto Santo,pg 149). According to HHN título Teixeiras we have a different story; § 14.º / N.º 4 Manuel Teixeira de Vasconcellos, filho 2.º / de Antonio Teixei- ra, o Rei Pequeno, § 11.º, N.º 3.º / Casou com Anna de Vellosa, filha de Fran- / cisco de Vellosa, o velho, e de Catharina Vaz Tavares, / em titulo de Vellosas, § 2.º, N.º 2.º / De quem houve. / 5 Francisco de Vellosa de Vasconcellos. / 5 D. Constança de Mendônça, mulher de João / de Ornellas de Moura, filho de João de Or- / nellas, e de D. Cecilia de Moura, em titulo / de Ornellas, § ...., N.º...../ 5 Francisco De Vellosa de Vasconcellos, filho 1.º de / Manuel Teixeira de Vasconcellos. / Casou com Maria de Gaias, Viuva de Agos- / tinho de Goes de Vas- concellos, seu primo, neste / titulo, § 11.º, N.º 5.º, e filha de Braz Gonçal- / ves, e de Maria da Conceição. / De quem houve. / 6 Francisco de Vellosa de Vasconcellos. / 6 Uma filha casada com Antonio Fernandes / que foi morador no Faial, e fôrão paes de: / ANTÓNIO FERNANDES DAS COVAS,. MORADOR NO FAIAL. 7 Uma filha, casada com Antonio Vaz / Leite, c. g. / I was thinking about asking about this quote as well "This last Francisco de Miranda de Lordelo is one of the first Correias de Miranda in Madeira and is well known.As well as the Lordelo name.I won't discuss here their genealogy now. Which is controversial, at least for one of them"...but decided this is probably too much for one posting ;-) I'LL ANSWER THAT TOMORROW ; -))) MIGUEL de CH -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:06 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Link to Morgado da Bemposta As direct ancestors of my paternal gg.mother Eulália Rosa (Corrêa de Miranda) I have (several generations before) in the beggining of the 17 th century (1610): Francisco Lopes Borralho m.(Faial, 1610) Catarina Corrêa, she daughter of Francisco de Miranda de Lordelo and Antónia Jorge. This last Francisco de Miranda de Lordelo is one of the first Correias de Miranda in Madeira and is well known.As well as the Lordelo name. I won't discuss here their genealogy now. Which is controversial, at least for one of them. Only recently I became aware that the Lopes Borralho name, quite unusual in that time (and even after) probably comes from João Lopes Franco (son of Lopo Franco de Monção married Catarina Annes Escudeiro niece of João Afonso Escudeiro, the 1st Morgado da Bemposta) and Jerónima Borralho. But I had a one generation gap. Then I found in Pereira de Agrela one Diogo Lopes Tavares, Morgado de São Lázaro ( son of João Lopes Franco, Morgado da Bemposta) and Jerónima Borralho- dau. of Gomes da Ponte, son of Jordão de Ponte and Filipa Tavares, and another Jerónima Borralho. (This FilipaTavares is an important piece of the puzzle, it explains why the Morgados da Bemposta used a coat of arms quartered with the Tavares' arms. She was the dau of Fernão Enes - I think he was called "O do bons vinhos. great!) and Catarina Vaz Tavares, this last one dau of Vasco Esteves and Joana Tavares.) Anyway That Diogo Lopes Tavares married (1580) Antónia de Abreu Escórcio- (dau. of António Lopes Libraleão and Mecia de Abreu Escórcio, dau of João Escórcio and Isabel Calaça- (the Libraleão possibly or maybe definetely Jewish) (interesting detail, because of one of the godparents. See below. * My feeling is that Diogo LT and Antónia AE. are the parents of my Francisco Lopes Borralho. The chronology fits, the names too, the social milieu too. Catarina Correia the wife of Francisco Lopes Borralho was the g. dau, of D. Beatriz de Lordelo, and this same Beatriz the niece of Tristão Teixeira, 3 d Capitão-Mor de Machico. The witness or quite possibly godparents of the marriage document (quite damaged, can't read it clearly in some parts) of Francisco Lopes Borralho and Catarina Corrêa, were Jordão de Freitas m. Beatriz Spínola. Jordão had a Lordelo as ancestor. And the other witness is the famous * António Fernandes das Covas,( son of Paulo António or António Paulo, a Jewish MD who was extremely rich, had slaves, an "engenho", etc)) married 2 nd time in that very same year Maria de Velosa de Vasconcelos. dau. of Francisco Velosa de Vasconcelos and Maria de Gayas- These Gayas, though noble, were most probably of Jewish origin too. This Francisco Velosa de Vasconcelos was also descendant of Catarina Vaz Tavares, thus Maria Velosa the wife of António Fernandes das Covas (the godfather) was a relative of the groom. And also a descendant of the Teixeiras, thus a relative of the bride as well. So I think this is it. I guess that all this makes sense. The social milieu, the Jewish connection, the adjustment of the names. As a matter of fact the Borralho name is very very rare. Only 7 Borralhos appear in the ARM database, and they seem to be all related - and linked to Jerónima Borralho, m. (1535 more or less) to João Lopes Franco Escudeiro, the Morgado da Bemposta. What do you think? Probably some more people in here have Corrêas or Correias de Miranda and possibly they'll have a link to these people too. Cheers, Miguel de CH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.116/2580 - Release Date: 12/22/09 08:09:00 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.116/2580 - Release Date: 12/22/09 18:22:00