Hello José, Do you have the date of marriage for Gabriel Vaz and Maria de Cairos and do you know who their parents were? When I looked at ARM the marriage was given as 1559 in Caniço not Camacha, though I believe they were from Camacha. Denise D'Antona In a message dated 12/3/2009 11:58:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Miguel, Here, on Francisco it would be interesting to find where Gabriel Vaz or Maria de Cairos come from. They marry in Camacha. In his marriage and he doesn't use D'Orta and then suddenly at his son's he his a D'Orta. Is it possible it is just that he had a "horta"? We have had already had a conversation on the Sousas. Jerónimo is my 11th, from Azores and so on. It is our Irish link! I do have a Vitória Miranda married to Marcos Francisco de Braga in 1567. This is through my Fernandes Veloza main branch. As you know I too, Cecce and others link to Mundos de Nóbrega. Terras de Nóbrega is a beautiful place, at least on the internet site. I shall visit itr one of these days. FDo you have any money to restore the castle? I like the Mundos name. In fact, there are Nóbregas all over the world now! The Vianas must come from Viana do Castelo. Been there. Liked the place. On Madelena Jorge. It says she was from the Fragas, the one married in 1622 to Pedro Gonçalves. Her parents were Jorge Dias and Catarina de Castro (Caniço, 1585). Jorge's parents are Gonçalo Jorge and Agueda Dias. Can't find that certificate. Any help is most welcome! By the way, Gonçalo is a "mestre d'açucar. Catarina's parents are Pedro Afonso, he was a "lavrador" and seemed to have married twice, and Maria Alves. I only know Maria's mother a widow- Gregória Martins. Any links here to Porto Santo. Perhaps through Martins? José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:p [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos José, He is the same Francisco. Sometimes name were shortened Anyway the d'Orta name puzzles me. There are the Hurtere, Flemish, from Açores (which gave the name to cidade da Horta), and the Horta, from Spain. Could he be from Açores ? From the Hurtere branch? Never heard someone raising this question before. May be I am 100% wrong. The Sás or Sousas e Sás from Caniço are, in part Sousas (by way of Jerónimo de Sousa, the trunk of that line) from Açores. I can't remember now their Sá name origin. It was a mighty name then, not common, though there were some Sás commoners and a few Sás nobles. Anyway a noble having Sá as a name would use it proudly. Like the Bettencourts de Sá did. Curuosly the Sás originate in Porto (Portugal) from bourgeois origins, around the mid 14 th century. So it's not that old. (A really old name in Portugal is a name existing before 1143, before King Afonso Henriques declared independence from Castille) when Portugal was still Comitat Portucalensis. I also have lots of Corrêas de Miranda (from Caniço) , coming from the first Corrêa de Miranda settler. Do you have them too? Actually my g.grand mother was Eulália de Jesus Corrêa de Miranda, her godfather was Morgado Jacinto de Freitas Lomelino, still a relative. She married a Nóbrega from the line of Mundos da Nóbrega. (They say Mundos name was Edmundo. It's quite probable. But I like the way it stayed for posterity : Mundos. The translation in English, of course, is "Worlds". Quite meaningful. At least I give it a lot of meaning, though Mundos was illiterate. I have his signature, a typical cross. ) The point about the origin of the Nóbrega surname is: was Nóbrega a toponymic, or not? In short , did the first Madeira Nóbrega came from the "Terras de Nóbrega", or did they carry the name Nóbrega? In the later case they could be a branch of the Aboim. But I have not seen this problem satisfactorily solved. One day, if Nóbrega is an added patronymic then wi will have to dive in the Gonçalves of Terras de Anóbrega - another way of saying Nóbrega. And that's for sure cnossian! The Regos seems to be from Algarve. The trunk of the Vianas, according to primo Clode, was Afonso Viana, from Caniço. >From him was descended João de Viana, Fidalgo Escudeiro da Casa Real, "whose descendants mixed with the Cairos from Caniço".(source: Clode. FMPS pg 333). The Vianas in that time were very rich, had a marble tomb, much envied, because they were perhaps the only ones in Madeira to afford such a luxury. (There is no marble in Madeira). Other noble families wanted to have a marble tomb " na feissão da de João de Vianna) (similar to the marble tom of the magnífico Viana). Don' forget ti tell me about your Dias Saldanha. Mine were Manuel Dias Saldanha m. Maria de Andrada ( from the Ferreira Noronhas). His parents were Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. (m. around 162...) Perdo Dias Saldanha was a natural son of Diogo Annes Saldanha (ouvidor de Machico) and Concórdia Fernandes. (I suppose Concórdia was a black woman, or mestiça. But I don't know why I suppose so. Perhaps Paulo can shed some light in here* She was Diogo's "amiga". (lovely expression for lover.) Ana Henriques, obviously, interests me. Now the Henriques name, being a patronymic, is a hard bone to crunch. Unfortunately there is no marriage certificate for Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. The interesting thing is to find Saldanhas in Madeira, at an early time. Almost after the first settlement. I am almost sure . due to their status, that they were from the Saldanhas that came to Portugal from Spain. And as I lived quite near Praça do Saldanha , in Lisbon ( Duke of Saldanha Square) during many years, this name interests me a lot. I also have friends with that name, direct descendants of the first Saldanhas who came to Portugal. About Madalena Jorge, i have scores of Jorges too. Some, were from Porto Santo, descendants of Pedro Jorge (From the terrible mess of the mid 16 th Calaças). Others from Gaula, and have nothing to do with the former. And still others like BeatrizJorge married to Manuel Afonso, (16 th century) that I can't track. Regards, Miguel ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message