Miguel and jose is this the same beatriz that married diogo de pais??? Leandro In a message dated 08/01/2010 22:21:03 Romance Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Now the line hypothetically can be arranged like this: 1 Afonso Chamorro, Escudeiro da Casa Real m. N., they had: 2. Pedro Chamorro Escudeiro FCR m. Inês Gonçalves de Leam, they had: 3. Brites Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra m. F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia, they had 4 Rui, Gaspar and all the rest until us. So now we have Inês Gonçalves ( de Leam) to investigate. 2010/1/8 Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> > > The Witness Way is always tortuous and difficult. (A Via Sinuosa) ; -))) > > Yes I was aware of that connection that Meneses Vaz made through the > Castros. So now both ends ( the sinuous and the straight) meet and we have a > much more solid foundation to explain the emergence of the name Pacheco. > > Meneses Vaz left something for us to explore and snack over. Nice guy. > > I have the connection of the Castros to the Escobar/Pacheco somewhere, > taken from old P. A., of course. > > But I was not aware of Gomes Pacheco, FCR. And now that the we have the > broader picture we can see that he is also pivotal in all this scheme. > > That+s why I always insisit on the names of witness, in the names of > testemunhas in one side, and if available in the names of the > testamentertos. The "testamentos" can be a mine of info. > > > Miguel > > > > 2010/1/8 Fernandes, Jose <[email protected]> > > Miguel, >> It is a good story. But are you suggesting that someone married into the >> family? >> Yes, in fact Vaz says that Manuel de Gouveia Pacheco took the name of >> Pacheco from his mother "pois que seus primos, filhos duma tia, Isabel >> Ferreira Castro, irma de sua mae, tomaram também o mesmo apelido Pacheco'. >> >> His mother was Ana de Castro, and her parents and Isabel's were Dr. Diogo >> de Castro e Margarida Ferreira. >> So my friend from Alentejo, it is more than a conjecture, you are right! >> But you did go through a more complicated way! >> >> José >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto: >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques >> Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:52 PM >> To: [email protected]; [email protected] >> Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João >> Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) >> >> João Rodrigues Escórcio is a key figure for understanding the emergence of >> the Pacheco name in the Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> >> Let us see why, >> >> 1. He appears as "testemunha" in Rui Chamorro ( son of F.co Rodrigues de >> Gouveua and brites CVhamorra) with Isabel Leal. >> 2. He appears as testamenteiro, in Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveria (brother >> of >> Rui Chamorro) will. Testamenteiros were normally relatives. >> >> So he is a figure close to this family. Because he is relative? probably- >> >> Let's see João Rodrigues Escórcio genealogy. >> >> >> 1. João Rodrigues Arraes, Escudeiro FCR, An interesting Arrais because he >> is >> supposed to be the first Arrais in madeira. He wrote his "testamento" in >> 1517, He was the administrator of a Capela in Sintra, Portugal. je >> married >> Leonor Escórcio, dau. of our well known the Magnificent João de leiria and >> Isabel Eanes Escórcio. tehy had. >> 2. Diogo Rodrigues Escórcio (fez testamento em 1533). m. Juliana Giraldes, >> dau, of Gerlado Anes , and sister of Gaspar Rodrigues teixeira (who had a >> coat of arms for Teixeiras inm 135r). sons of Lourenço Rodrigues teixeiram >> and g. sons of "The Gordo." >> >> 3. João Rodrigues Escórcio m. Maria Pacheco " (Here is the Hare!), dau. of >> Àlvaro da Fonseca and Isabel Pacheco - This later was the dau of Pedro de >> Escobar and Margarida Pacheco (title Escobar). >> >> Note - margarida pacheco was the g. dau, of Gomes Pacheco, Fidalgo da Casa >> Real. IMO the Rodrigues de Gouveia used the Pacheco name just because of >> this Gomes Pacheco, a very illustrious figure. >> >> So my conjecture is that the Pacheco that the Rodrigues de Gouveia used >> for >> two generations is this one, comes from that Gomes Pacheco. and no other. >> >> In a next mail we'll have a look at the Escobanms. >> >> Not jews, but from old Spanish families of first magnitude. >> >> (To be continued) >> >> >> Miguel >> >> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Guess this answers that ;-) >> > Cece >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: [email protected] >> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> > Henriques >> > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 8:24 AM >> > To: [email protected] >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > >> > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> > [email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > Miguel, >> > > After a good night's reflection (?), I won't discuss my opinion on >> > > whether in the present unitary constitution of the Portuguese >> > > Republic, Madeira's regional government has the power of a "state" >> > > (Estado), but let's just consider that in this case ARM has taken a >> > > position. Consider that in spite of the certificate saying that >> > > Beatriz is a Gonçalves Leão de Chamorro, they have not incorporated >> > > that when they digitalized the info. I mean that you put that name in >> > > the Data base and you get nothing. That is not normal. Why did they do >> > that? >> > > >> > >> > The omnipotent and menacing shade of god-the-father! I mean probably >> the >> > ghost of Meneses Vaz paralyzed them. So they co-opted. They compromised, >> > and >> > instead of her full name they just wrote Beatriz Chamorra, but they >> > conceded >> > the Dr,.(instead of Licenciado) to Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> > >> > Now there was for sure an archi-famous Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues - >> > never referred as de Gouveia - around 1555 and 1557. He was corregedor, >> ( >> > corregedor da Capitania da Cidade do Funchal, Procurador das Capellas, >> > Orphãos e Resíduos e fazenda, etc. com larguissimos poderes e Alçada, >> > porque >> > além das Corregedroias das Comarcas lhe dá a do Capitam (a do Zarco) >> and >> > in >> > short, he had more power than the "Capitam" of Madeira who naturally was >> a >> > Gonçalves Zarco . >> > >> > That corregedor became famous not only because of his actions, but >> because >> > he had majestic powers as no one had before him. He was "governador, >> > ouvidor >> > e Vedor da fazenda. He had at his service as "escrivão" and "chanceler >> da >> > correição" Jerónimo Vieira, moço-fidalgo, and more personnel. >> > Anyway during the period of time that Francisco Rodrigues had the >> > government >> > he ruled the three "Capitanias" of Madeira archipelago. (More than >> Jardim >> > today!) ; -))) >> > >> > >> > >> > > So, uisnng your argument all the ARM is guaranteeing is that she is a >> > > Beatriz Chamorra. >> > >> > >> > Not only that, even more important than that, the ARM is guaranteeing >> that >> > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is "de Gouveia" and Licenciado, and >> > historically speaking he is infinitely more important than Beatriz >> > Chamorra. >> > >> > >> > But one point not clarified remains. Is the famous corregedor Francisco >> > Rodrigues the same as Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? That's one of the >> > major points to be cleared. As Francisco Rodrigues is quite a common >> name >> > there could be, there could even be two Licenciados with almost the same >> > name, no big deal. >> > >> > >> > > Now, you and I, know that the possibility of another Francisco >> > > Rodrigues Gouveia, Licenciado marrying a Beatriz Chamorra at this time >> > > in Funchal, Madeira is highly improbable. >> > > >> > >> > And that would be almost absolutely improbable. In that time there were >> > very >> > few people of both sides (Rodrigues de Gouveia and Chamorros) to have >> that >> > circumstance happening. >> > >> > >> > > Therefore I agree with you but we are still at a dead's end with >> beatriz. >> > > >> > >> > It has some shades of a dead end situation. But has some vistas over >> other >> > possibilities. So it's not a total dead end, rather a dead end with >> > openness >> > and some light at the end of the end of the tunnel. >> > >> > >> > >> > > Keep exercising! >> > > >> > >> > I will, for sure. Give it a try! >> > >> > >> > Cheers, >> > >> > Miguel >> > >> > >> > >> > > Cheers, >> > > José >> > > >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message