Pat, Good find, but for the moment I don't know who they are. They don't seem to appear in their place, the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy. But they probably connect. Miguel On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Pat Corbera <[email protected]>wrote: > Miguel and Jose, > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. Beatriz Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > João Ferreira Beatriz Chamorra Santo António 1705 211 53 v.º > Manuel Gomes Beatriz Chamorra São Martinho 1697 241 43 > > Who are the other two Beatriz Chamorra ladies? > > Pat > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jose Fernandes" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2010 9:21:38 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > Miguel, > I am just reading the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy, and on note #8 > Bernado Gomes Ferreira (?) writes that there is acertificate of marriage > for out two, but " existe-mas é como não existisse...E uma cousa > inautêntica" and that's why in Bernardo's opinion Vaz did not pay attention > to it. What do you think of that? > I guess I am having problems with an Italian connection!!! > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:43 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel, > > Interesting that the family, as you know, uses Pacheco > > > Yes, for two generations they use Gouveia Pacheco. And with that name they > administer the "Capela" from the morgadio established by Rodrigo Anes and > Isabel Pires.. > > > > > and only much later goes back to the Rodrigues de Gouveia. That is > somewhat > > unusual, unless the other names were more powerful. > > > > > > > To add to Beatriz's parents' confusion, please remember that later a > Brites > > Chamorra wins that famous name trial re: Cunha because her ancestors were > Da > > Cunha from the Carvalho Pais. So at some time we have to deal with that > > side. > > > > That famous trial is a powerful piece. As you know they won against D. > Pedro > Álvares da Cunha, a grandee of the the Kingdom, Trinchante-Mor da Casa > Real, > (he was also Governor of Madeira), from the archi-noble Cunhas da Tábua. So > they probably had access to some documentation that meanwhile was lost. > Anyway, nice to watch, the obscure Rodrigues de Gouveia defeating that Big > Fish. > > > > Miguel, I real believe that Vaz was not aware of the marriage in Sé. In > the > > genealogy, he says that Francisco married around 1540 or later. So he > wasn't > > aware of this certificate or if he was he dismissed it. > > > > I was surprised to see on RTPi that Setubal today was going colder than > the > > interior! > > > > Well, I didn't know about that. For the moment it is a sunny sunny day, > cold > as ice. > > > I am on my 3d cup of steaming tea. One has to drink it fast otherwise it > gets cold in no time at all. > > > > > José > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:56 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > > > José, > > > > > > > > > > Miguel, > > > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among others) share > > this > > > family. > > > > > > Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. Were they > > kindly > > leaving something for us to discover? ; -) > > > > Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar Rodrigues. > > > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather and is though > > > his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage with > > Escolástica > > > de Bettencourt. > > > > > > > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the Rodrigues de > > Gouveia > > > > > > > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate > > > > > > I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a magnificent > > handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The addition of beatriz glz de > leam > > (no capital letters) > > is his, no doubt. > > > > > > > and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it to my > > > personal account. > > > > > > For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is kaput. > > > > > > > Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. > > > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my information, and > I > > > share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of the Leão > > > connection. > > > > > > It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the clues to > find > > out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. She must > be > > one of the persons from that era with the longest name. Trivial as it is > > today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those times. > > It would have been signaled. > > Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". Unusual among the > > Chamorras who never used that "de" > > > > But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the sons used > their > > father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means that the > > Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de Gouveia. So this > > allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with the top > > Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro Chamorro, > FCR. > > Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de Gouveia > name. > > Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible as regards > use > > of names of the parents. > > > > > > > You don't have Brites parents? > > > > > > No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is presented as dau. > of > > Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the respectable > Meneses > > Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to say the least, > > questionable. > > > > But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit that she > was > > the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in that time the > > first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. > > > > > > All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam (Leone?) to > > our > > tree. > > > > > > > They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have known. > > > > > > That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If he did not > show > > it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he had too. It's > > too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a bastard line was > > not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did sometimes). > > Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. perhaps even > > descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the Spínolas. And > the > > Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam link that > > Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. > > > > > > > Bastard line? > > > > > > > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. > > > > > > > The Alentejo cold does help your research! > > > > > > > > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" Scandianavian > > countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). Temperatures below > zero > > in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or whatever, please! > > > > > > Miguel > > > > José > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > > > > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much > > > importance > > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or > > > not? > > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it > > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > > > > > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui > > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > > > > > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The > > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui > > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already > dead) > > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam > de > > > Chamorra !!* > > > > > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added > > with > > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no > > doubt > > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i > bet > > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that > time. > > > And > > > containing explosive and brand new information. > > > > > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do > > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They > established > > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected > by > > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. > > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a > relative? > > > > > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues > > de > > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say > > he > > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de > Gouveia. > > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several > > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > > > > > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > > > Beatriz > > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > > > > > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz > > Chamorra? > > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central > > detail > > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and > > the > > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly > > > existed. > > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it > before. > > > And > > > that, just amazes me. > > > > > > > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam > > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is > > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > > > > > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > > > > > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > > > > > > > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the > > > leading > > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I > > won't > > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent > in > > > the > > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to > refer > > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as > > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that > > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to > do > > > it. > > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I > have > > to > > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their > > > attention, > > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. > > > > > > > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from > > the Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
Miguel/Pat I don't what your comments refer to, because these Beatriz, all from the same family, are not the same. Miguel (and I assume others) have these Beatriz in our family line and we do know who they are. What we don't have are Beatriz's parents- the one from 1539. And we still have Bernardo's opinion in all of this. Is Beatriz just a Chamorro and Carvalho Pais (Cunha) /andor is she also a Gonçalves Leão? José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:51 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia Pat, Good find, but for the moment I don't know who they are. They don't seem to appear in their place, the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy. But they probably connect. Miguel On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Pat Corbera <[email protected]>wrote: > Miguel and Jose, > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. Beatriz Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > João Ferreira Beatriz Chamorra Santo António 1705 211 53 v.º > Manuel Gomes Beatriz Chamorra São Martinho 1697 241 43 > > Who are the other two Beatriz Chamorra ladies? > > Pat > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jose Fernandes" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2010 9:21:38 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > Miguel, > I am just reading the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy, and on note #8 > Bernado Gomes Ferreira (?) writes that there is acertificate of marriage > for out two, but " existe-mas é como não existisse...E uma cousa > inautêntica" and that's why in Bernardo's opinion Vaz did not pay attention > to it. What do you think of that? > I guess I am having problems with an Italian connection!!! > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:43 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel, > > Interesting that the family, as you know, uses Pacheco > > > Yes, for two generations they use Gouveia Pacheco. And with that name they > administer the "Capela" from the morgadio established by Rodrigo Anes and > Isabel Pires.. > > > > > and only much later goes back to the Rodrigues de Gouveia. That is > somewhat > > unusual, unless the other names were more powerful. > > > > > > > To add to Beatriz's parents' confusion, please remember that later a > Brites > > Chamorra wins that famous name trial re: Cunha because her ancestors were > Da > > Cunha from the Carvalho Pais. So at some time we have to deal with that > > side. > > > > That famous trial is a powerful piece. As you know they won against D. > Pedro > Álvares da Cunha, a grandee of the the Kingdom, Trinchante-Mor da Casa > Real, > (he was also Governor of Madeira), from the archi-noble Cunhas da Tábua. So > they probably had access to some documentation that meanwhile was lost. > Anyway, nice to watch, the obscure Rodrigues de Gouveia defeating that Big > Fish. > > > > Miguel, I real believe that Vaz was not aware of the marriage in Sé. In > the > > genealogy, he says that Francisco married around 1540 or later. So he > wasn't > > aware of this certificate or if he was he dismissed it. > > > > I was surprised to see on RTPi that Setubal today was going colder than > the > > interior! > > > > Well, I didn't know about that. For the moment it is a sunny sunny day, > cold > as ice. > > > I am on my 3d cup of steaming tea. One has to drink it fast otherwise it > gets cold in no time at all. > > > > > José > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:56 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > > > José, > > > > > > > > > > Miguel, > > > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among others) share > > this > > > family. > > > > > > Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. Were they > > kindly > > leaving something for us to discover? ; -) > > > > Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar Rodrigues. > > > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather and is though > > > his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage with > > Escolástica > > > de Bettencourt. > > > > > > > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the Rodrigues de > > Gouveia > > > > > > > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate > > > > > > I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a magnificent > > handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The addition of beatriz glz de > leam > > (no capital letters) > > is his, no doubt. > > > > > > > and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it to my > > > personal account. > > > > > > For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is kaput. > > > > > > > Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. > > > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my information, and > I > > > share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of the Leão > > > connection. > > > > > > It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the clues to > find > > out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. She must > be > > one of the persons from that era with the longest name. Trivial as it is > > today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those times. > > It would have been signaled. > > Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". Unusual among the > > Chamorras who never used that "de" > > > > But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the sons used > their > > father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means that the > > Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de Gouveia. So this > > allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with the top > > Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro Chamorro, > FCR. > > Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de Gouveia > name. > > Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible as regards > use > > of names of the parents. > > > > > > > You don't have Brites parents? > > > > > > No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is presented as dau. > of > > Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the respectable > Meneses > > Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to say the least, > > questionable. > > > > But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit that she > was > > the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in that time the > > first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. > > > > > > All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam (Leone?) to > > our > > tree. > > > > > > > They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have known. > > > > > > That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If he did not > show > > it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he had too. It's > > too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a bastard line was > > not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did sometimes). > > Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. perhaps even > > descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the Spínolas. And > the > > Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam link that > > Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. > > > > > > > Bastard line? > > > > > > > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. > > > > > > > The Alentejo cold does help your research! > > > > > > > > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" Scandianavian > > countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). Temperatures below > zero > > in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or whatever, please! > > > > > > Miguel > > > > José > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > > > > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much > > > importance > > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or > > > not? > > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it > > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > > > > > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui > > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > > > > > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The > > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui > > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already > dead) > > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam > de > > > Chamorra !!* > > > > > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added > > with > > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no > > doubt > > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i > bet > > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that > time. > > > And > > > containing explosive and brand new information. > > > > > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do > > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They > established > > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected > by > > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. > > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a > relative? > > > > > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues > > de > > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say > > he > > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de > Gouveia. > > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several > > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > > > > > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > > > Beatriz > > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > > > > > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz > > Chamorra? > > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central > > detail > > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and > > the > > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly > > > existed. > > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it > before. > > > And > > > that, just amazes me. > > > > > > > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam > > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is > > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > > > > > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > > > > > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > > > > > > > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the > > > leading > > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I > > won't > > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent > in > > > the > > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to > refer > > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as > > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that > > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to > do > > > it. > > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I > have > > to > > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their > > > attention, > > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. > > > > > > > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from > > the Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Jose, Are you saying that you have more than one Beatriz Chamorro in your data base/family lines? If so, what other surnames appear with Beatriz Chamorro in those lines? Pat p.s. I personally didn't have one... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jose Fernandes" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2010 11:06:20 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia Miguel/Pat I don't what your comments refer to, because these Beatriz, all from the same family, are not the same. Miguel (and I assume others) have these Beatriz in our family line and we do know who they are. What we don't have are Beatriz's parents- the one from 1539. And we still have Bernardo's opinion in all of this. Is Beatriz just a Chamorro and Carvalho Pais (Cunha) /andor is she also a Gonçalves Leão? José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:51 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia Pat, Good find, but for the moment I don't know who they are. They don't seem to appear in their place, the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy. But they probably connect. Miguel On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Pat Corbera <[email protected]>wrote: > Miguel and Jose, > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. Beatriz Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > João Ferreira Beatriz Chamorra Santo António 1705 211 53 v.º > Manuel Gomes Beatriz Chamorra São Martinho 1697 241 43 > > Who are the other two Beatriz Chamorra ladies? > > Pat > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jose Fernandes" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2010 9:21:38 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > Miguel, > I am just reading the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy, and on note #8 > Bernado Gomes Ferreira (?) writes that there is acertificate of marriage > for out two, but " existe-mas é como não existisse...E uma cousa > inautêntica" and that's why in Bernardo's opinion Vaz did not pay attention > to it. What do you think of that? > I guess I am having problems with an Italian connection!!! > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:43 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel, > > Interesting that the family, as you know, uses Pacheco > > > Yes, for two generations they use Gouveia Pacheco. And with that name they > administer the "Capela" from the morgadio established by Rodrigo Anes and > Isabel Pires.. > > > > > and only much later goes back to the Rodrigues de Gouveia. That is > somewhat > > unusual, unless the other names were more powerful. > > > > > > > To add to Beatriz's parents' confusion, please remember that later a > Brites > > Chamorra wins that famous name trial re: Cunha because her ancestors were > Da > > Cunha from the Carvalho Pais. So at some time we have to deal with that > > side. > > > > That famous trial is a powerful piece. As you know they won against D. > Pedro > Álvares da Cunha, a grandee of the the Kingdom, Trinchante-Mor da Casa > Real, > (he was also Governor of Madeira), from the archi-noble Cunhas da Tábua. So > they probably had access to some documentation that meanwhile was lost. > Anyway, nice to watch, the obscure Rodrigues de Gouveia defeating that Big > Fish. > > > > Miguel, I real believe that Vaz was not aware of the marriage in Sé. In > the > > genealogy, he says that Francisco married around 1540 or later. So he > wasn't > > aware of this certificate or if he was he dismissed it. > > > > I was surprised to see on RTPi that Setubal today was going colder than > the > > interior! > > > > Well, I didn't know about that. For the moment it is a sunny sunny day, > cold > as ice. > > > I am on my 3d cup of steaming tea. One has to drink it fast otherwise it > gets cold in no time at all. > > > > > José > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:56 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > > > José, > > > > > > > > > > Miguel, > > > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among others) share > > this > > > family. > > > > > > Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. Were they > > kindly > > leaving something for us to discover? ; -) > > > > Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar Rodrigues. > > > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather and is though > > > his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage with > > Escolástica > > > de Bettencourt. > > > > > > > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the Rodrigues de > > Gouveia > > > > > > > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate > > > > > > I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a magnificent > > handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The addition of beatriz glz de > leam > > (no capital letters) > > is his, no doubt. > > > > > > > and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it to my > > > personal account. > > > > > > For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is kaput. > > > > > > > Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. > > > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my information, and > I > > > share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of the Leão > > > connection. > > > > > > It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the clues to > find > > out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. She must > be > > one of the persons from that era with the longest name. Trivial as it is > > today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those times. > > It would have been signaled. > > Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". Unusual among the > > Chamorras who never used that "de" > > > > But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the sons used > their > > father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means that the > > Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de Gouveia. So this > > allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with the top > > Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro Chamorro, > FCR. > > Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de Gouveia > name. > > Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible as regards > use > > of names of the parents. > > > > > > > You don't have Brites parents? > > > > > > No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is presented as dau. > of > > Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the respectable > Meneses > > Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to say the least, > > questionable. > > > > But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit that she > was > > the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in that time the > > first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. > > > > > > All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam (Leone?) to > > our > > tree. > > > > > > > They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have known. > > > > > > That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If he did not > show > > it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he had too. It's > > too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a bastard line was > > not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did sometimes). > > Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. perhaps even > > descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the Spínolas. And > the > > Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam link that > > Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. > > > > > > > Bastard line? > > > > > > > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. > > > > > > > The Alentejo cold does help your research! > > > > > > > > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" Scandianavian > > countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). Temperatures below > zero > > in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or whatever, please! > > > > > > Miguel > > > > José > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > > > > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much > > > importance > > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or > > > not? > > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it > > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > > > > > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui > > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > > > > > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The > > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui > > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already > dead) > > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam > de > > > Chamorra !!* > > > > > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added > > with > > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no > > doubt > > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i > bet > > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that > time. > > > And > > > containing explosive and brand new information. > > > > > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do > > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They > established > > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected > by > > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. > > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a > relative? > > > > > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues > > de > > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say > > he > > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de > Gouveia. > > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several > > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > > > > > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > > > Beatriz > > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > > > > > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz > > Chamorra? > > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central > > detail > > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and > > the > > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly > > > existed. > > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it > before. > > > And > > > that, just amazes me. > > > > > > > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam > > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is > > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > > > > > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > > > > > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > > > > > > > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the > > > leading > > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I > > won't > > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent > in > > > the > > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to > refer > > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as > > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that > > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to > do > > > it. > > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I > have > > to > > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their > > > attention, > > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. > > > > > > > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from > > the Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message