Miguel, It is a good story. But are you suggesting that someone married into the family? Yes, in fact Vaz says that Manuel de Gouveia Pacheco took the name of Pacheco from his mother "pois que seus primos, filhos duma tia, Isabel Ferreira Castro, irma de sua mae, tomaram também o mesmo apelido Pacheco'. His mother was Ana de Castro, and her parents and Isabel's were Dr. Diogo de Castro e Margarida Ferreira. So my friend from Alentejo, it is more than a conjecture, you are right! But you did go through a more complicated way! José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:52 PM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) João Rodrigues Escórcio is a key figure for understanding the emergence of the Pacheco name in the Rodrigues de Gouveia. Let us see why, 1. He appears as "testemunha" in Rui Chamorro ( son of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveua and brites CVhamorra) with Isabel Leal. 2. He appears as testamenteiro, in Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveria (brother of Rui Chamorro) will. Testamenteiros were normally relatives. So he is a figure close to this family. Because he is relative? probably- Let's see João Rodrigues Escórcio genealogy. 1. João Rodrigues Arraes, Escudeiro FCR, An interesting Arrais because he is supposed to be the first Arrais in madeira. He wrote his "testamento" in 1517, He was the administrator of a Capela in Sintra, Portugal. je married Leonor Escórcio, dau. of our well known the Magnificent João de leiria and Isabel Eanes Escórcio. tehy had. 2. Diogo Rodrigues Escórcio (fez testamento em 1533). m. Juliana Giraldes, dau, of Gerlado Anes , and sister of Gaspar Rodrigues teixeira (who had a coat of arms for Teixeiras inm 135r). sons of Lourenço Rodrigues teixeiram and g. sons of "The Gordo." 3. João Rodrigues Escórcio m. Maria Pacheco " (Here is the Hare!), dau. of Àlvaro da Fonseca and Isabel Pacheco - This later was the dau of Pedro de Escobar and Margarida Pacheco (title Escobar). Note - margarida pacheco was the g. dau, of Gomes Pacheco, Fidalgo da Casa Real. IMO the Rodrigues de Gouveia used the Pacheco name just because of this Gomes Pacheco, a very illustrious figure. So my conjecture is that the Pacheco that the Rodrigues de Gouveia used for two generations is this one, comes from that Gomes Pacheco. and no other. In a next mail we'll have a look at the Escobanms. Not jews, but from old Spanish families of first magnitude. (To be continued) Miguel On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > Guess this answers that ;-) > Cece > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 8:24 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel, > > After a good night's reflection (?), I won't discuss my opinion on > > whether in the present unitary constitution of the Portuguese > > Republic, Madeira's regional government has the power of a "state" > > (Estado), but let's just consider that in this case ARM has taken a > > position. Consider that in spite of the certificate saying that > > Beatriz is a Gonçalves Leão de Chamorro, they have not incorporated > > that when they digitalized the info. I mean that you put that name in > > the Data base and you get nothing. That is not normal. Why did they do > that? > > > > The omnipotent and menacing shade of god-the-father! I mean probably the > ghost of Meneses Vaz paralyzed them. So they co-opted. They compromised, > and > instead of her full name they just wrote Beatriz Chamorra, but they > conceded > the Dr,.(instead of Licenciado) to Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > Now there was for sure an archi-famous Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues - > never referred as de Gouveia - around 1555 and 1557. He was corregedor, ( > corregedor da Capitania da Cidade do Funchal, Procurador das Capellas, > Orphãos e Resíduos e fazenda, etc. com larguissimos poderes e Alçada, > porque > além das Corregedroias das Comarcas lhe dá a do Capitam (a do Zarco) and > in > short, he had more power than the "Capitam" of Madeira who naturally was a > Gonçalves Zarco . > > That corregedor became famous not only because of his actions, but because > he had majestic powers as no one had before him. He was "governador, > ouvidor > e Vedor da fazenda. He had at his service as "escrivão" and "chanceler da > correição" Jerónimo Vieira, moço-fidalgo, and more personnel. > Anyway during the period of time that Francisco Rodrigues had the > government > he ruled the three "Capitanias" of Madeira archipelago. (More than Jardim > today!) ; -))) > > > > > So, uisnng your argument all the ARM is guaranteeing is that she is a > > Beatriz Chamorra. > > > Not only that, even more important than that, the ARM is guaranteeing that > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is "de Gouveia" and Licenciado, and > historically speaking he is infinitely more important than Beatriz > Chamorra. > > > But one point not clarified remains. Is the famous corregedor Francisco > Rodrigues the same as Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? That's one of the > major points to be cleared. As Francisco Rodrigues is quite a common name > there could be, there could even be two Licenciados with almost the same > name, no big deal. > > > > Now, you and I, know that the possibility of another Francisco > > Rodrigues Gouveia, Licenciado marrying a Beatriz Chamorra at this time > > in Funchal, Madeira is highly improbable. > > > > And that would be almost absolutely improbable. In that time there were > very > few people of both sides (Rodrigues de Gouveia and Chamorros) to have that > circumstance happening. > > > > Therefore I agree with you but we are still at a dead's end with beatriz. > > > > It has some shades of a dead end situation. But has some vistas over other > possibilities. So it's not a total dead end, rather a dead end with > openness > and some light at the end of the end of the tunnel. > > > > > Keep exercising! > > > > I will, for sure. Give it a try! > > > Cheers, > > Miguel > > > > > Cheers, > > José > > >

People, people...be kinder to us novices that are trying to put these pieces together for the first time!!! So I think I understand that Isabel Ferreira de Castro (married to ??) and Ana de Castro (married to ??) are both the daughters of Dr. Diogo de Castro & Margarida Ferreira.(correct me if I'm wrong) And that Manuel de Gouveia Pacheco (married to ???) is the son of Ana de Castro and (???) And now can you tell me how any of these peoople tie in to any of the people below as I don't see any common names there? I do have a couple of the people above and a couple of the people below and am desperately trying to make this association that is so clear to the both of you;-) -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA]Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) Miguel, It is a good story. But are you suggesting that someone married into the family? Yes, in fact Vaz says that Manuel de Gouveia Pacheco took the name of Pacheco from his mother "pois que seus primos, filhos duma tia, Isabel Ferreira Castro, irma de sua mae, tomaram também o mesmo apelido Pacheco'. His mother was Ana de Castro, and her parents and Isabel's were Dr. Diogo de Castro e Margarida Ferreira. So my friend from Alentejo, it is more than a conjecture, you are right! But you did go through a more complicated way! José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:52 PM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) João Rodrigues Escórcio is a key figure for understanding the emergence of the Pacheco name in the Rodrigues de Gouveia. Let us see why, 1. He appears as "testemunha" in Rui Chamorro ( son of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveua and brites CVhamorra) with Isabel Leal. 2. He appears as testamenteiro, in Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveria (brother of Rui Chamorro) will. Testamenteiros were normally relatives. So he is a figure close to this family. Because he is relative? probably- Let's see João Rodrigues Escórcio genealogy. 1. João Rodrigues Arraes, Escudeiro FCR, An interesting Arrais because he is supposed to be the first Arrais in madeira. He wrote his "testamento" in 1517, He was the administrator of a Capela in Sintra, Portugal. je married Leonor Escórcio, dau. of our well known the Magnificent João de leiria and Isabel Eanes Escórcio. tehy had. 2. Diogo Rodrigues Escórcio (fez testamento em 1533). m. Juliana Giraldes, dau, of Gerlado Anes , and sister of Gaspar Rodrigues teixeira (who had a coat of arms for Teixeiras inm 135r). sons of Lourenço Rodrigues teixeiram and g. sons of "The Gordo." 3. João Rodrigues Escórcio m. Maria Pacheco " (Here is the Hare!), dau. of Àlvaro da Fonseca and Isabel Pacheco - This later was the dau of Pedro de Escobar and Margarida Pacheco (title Escobar). Note - margarida pacheco was the g. dau, of Gomes Pacheco, Fidalgo da Casa Real. IMO the Rodrigues de Gouveia used the Pacheco name just because of this Gomes Pacheco, a very illustrious figure. So my conjecture is that the Pacheco that the Rodrigues de Gouveia used for two generations is this one, comes from that Gomes Pacheco. and no other. In a next mail we'll have a look at the Escobanms. Not jews, but from old Spanish families of first magnitude. (To be continued) Miguel On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > Guess this answers that ;-) > Cece > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > Castro Henriques > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 8:24 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel, > > After a good night's reflection (?), I won't discuss my opinion on > > whether in the present unitary constitution of the Portuguese > > Republic, Madeira's regional government has the power of a "state" > > (Estado), but let's just consider that in this case ARM has taken a > > position. Consider that in spite of the certificate saying that > > Beatriz is a Gonçalves Leão de Chamorro, they have not incorporated > > that when they digitalized the info. I mean that you put that name > > in the Data base and you get nothing. That is not normal. Why did > > they do > that? > > > > The omnipotent and menacing shade of god-the-father! I mean probably > the ghost of Meneses Vaz paralyzed them. So they co-opted. They > compromised, and instead of her full name they just wrote Beatriz > Chamorra, but they conceded the Dr,.(instead of Licenciado) to > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > Now there was for sure an archi-famous Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues > - never referred as de Gouveia - around 1555 and 1557. He was > corregedor, ( corregedor da Capitania da Cidade do Funchal, Procurador > das Capellas, Orphãos e Resíduos e fazenda, etc. com larguissimos > poderes e Alçada, porque além das Corregedroias das Comarcas lhe dá a > do Capitam (a do Zarco) and in short, he had more power than the > "Capitam" of Madeira who naturally was a Gonçalves Zarco . > > That corregedor became famous not only because of his actions, but > because he had majestic powers as no one had before him. He was > "governador, ouvidor e Vedor da fazenda. He had at his service as > "escrivão" and "chanceler da correição" Jerónimo Vieira, moço-fidalgo, > and more personnel. > Anyway during the period of time that Francisco Rodrigues had the > government he ruled the three "Capitanias" of Madeira archipelago. > (More than Jardim > today!) ; -))) > > > > > So, uisnng your argument all the ARM is guaranteeing is that she is > > a Beatriz Chamorra. > > > Not only that, even more important than that, the ARM is guaranteeing > that Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is "de Gouveia" and Licenciado, > and historically speaking he is infinitely more important than Beatriz > Chamorra. > > > But one point not clarified remains. Is the famous corregedor > Francisco Rodrigues the same as Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? That's > one of the major points to be cleared. As Francisco Rodrigues is quite > a common name there could be, there could even be two Licenciados with > almost the same name, no big deal. > > > > Now, you and I, know that the possibility of another Francisco > > Rodrigues Gouveia, Licenciado marrying a Beatriz Chamorra at this > > time in Funchal, Madeira is highly improbable. > > > > And that would be almost absolutely improbable. In that time there > were very few people of both sides (Rodrigues de Gouveia and > Chamorros) to have that circumstance happening. > > > > Therefore I agree with you but we are still at a dead's end with beatriz. > > > > It has some shades of a dead end situation. But has some vistas over > other possibilities. So it's not a total dead end, rather a dead end > with openness and some light at the end of the end of the tunnel. > > > > > Keep exercising! > > > > I will, for sure. Give it a try! > > > Cheers, > > Miguel > > > > > Cheers, > > José > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.119/2586 - Release Date: 01/08/10 07:35:00

The Witness Way is always tortuous and difficult. (A Via Sinuosa) ; -))) Yes I was aware of that connection that Meneses Vaz made through the Castros. So now both ends ( the sinuous and the straight) meet and we have a much more solid foundation to explain the emergence of the name Pacheco. Meneses Vaz left something for us to explore and snack over. Nice guy. I have the connection of the Castros to the Escobar/Pacheco somewhere, taken from old P. A., of course. But I was not aware of Gomes Pacheco, FCR. And now that the we have the broader picture we can see that he is also pivotal in all this scheme. That+s why I always insisit on the names of witness, in the names of testemunhas in one side, and if available in the names of the testamentertos. The "testamentos" can be a mine of info. Miguel 2010/1/8 Fernandes, Jose <[email protected]> > Miguel, > It is a good story. But are you suggesting that someone married into the > family? > Yes, in fact Vaz says that Manuel de Gouveia Pacheco took the name of > Pacheco from his mother "pois que seus primos, filhos duma tia, Isabel > Ferreira Castro, irma de sua mae, tomaram também o mesmo apelido Pacheco'. > > His mother was Ana de Castro, and her parents and Isabel's were Dr. Diogo > de Castro e Margarida Ferreira. > So my friend from Alentejo, it is more than a conjecture, you are right! > But you did go through a more complicated way! > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:52 PM > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João > Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) > > João Rodrigues Escórcio is a key figure for understanding the emergence of > the Pacheco name in the Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > Let us see why, > > 1. He appears as "testemunha" in Rui Chamorro ( son of F.co Rodrigues de > Gouveua and brites CVhamorra) with Isabel Leal. > 2. He appears as testamenteiro, in Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveria (brother of > Rui Chamorro) will. Testamenteiros were normally relatives. > > So he is a figure close to this family. Because he is relative? probably- > > Let's see João Rodrigues Escórcio genealogy. > > > 1. João Rodrigues Arraes, Escudeiro FCR, An interesting Arrais because he > is > supposed to be the first Arrais in madeira. He wrote his "testamento" in > 1517, He was the administrator of a Capela in Sintra, Portugal. je married > Leonor Escórcio, dau. of our well known the Magnificent João de leiria and > Isabel Eanes Escórcio. tehy had. > 2. Diogo Rodrigues Escórcio (fez testamento em 1533). m. Juliana Giraldes, > dau, of Gerlado Anes , and sister of Gaspar Rodrigues teixeira (who had a > coat of arms for Teixeiras inm 135r). sons of Lourenço Rodrigues teixeiram > and g. sons of "The Gordo." > > 3. João Rodrigues Escórcio m. Maria Pacheco " (Here is the Hare!), dau. of > Àlvaro da Fonseca and Isabel Pacheco - This later was the dau of Pedro de > Escobar and Margarida Pacheco (title Escobar). > > Note - margarida pacheco was the g. dau, of Gomes Pacheco, Fidalgo da Casa > Real. IMO the Rodrigues de Gouveia used the Pacheco name just because of > this Gomes Pacheco, a very illustrious figure. > > So my conjecture is that the Pacheco that the Rodrigues de Gouveia used for > two generations is this one, comes from that Gomes Pacheco. and no other. > > In a next mail we'll have a look at the Escobanms. > > Not jews, but from old Spanish families of first magnitude. > > (To be continued) > > > Miguel > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Guess this answers that ;-) > > Cece > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 8:24 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Miguel, > > > After a good night's reflection (?), I won't discuss my opinion on > > > whether in the present unitary constitution of the Portuguese > > > Republic, Madeira's regional government has the power of a "state" > > > (Estado), but let's just consider that in this case ARM has taken a > > > position. Consider that in spite of the certificate saying that > > > Beatriz is a Gonçalves Leão de Chamorro, they have not incorporated > > > that when they digitalized the info. I mean that you put that name in > > > the Data base and you get nothing. That is not normal. Why did they do > > that? > > > > > > > The omnipotent and menacing shade of god-the-father! I mean probably the > > ghost of Meneses Vaz paralyzed them. So they co-opted. They compromised, > > and > > instead of her full name they just wrote Beatriz Chamorra, but they > > conceded > > the Dr,.(instead of Licenciado) to Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > > Now there was for sure an archi-famous Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues - > > never referred as de Gouveia - around 1555 and 1557. He was corregedor, ( > > corregedor da Capitania da Cidade do Funchal, Procurador das Capellas, > > Orphãos e Resíduos e fazenda, etc. com larguissimos poderes e Alçada, > > porque > > além das Corregedroias das Comarcas lhe dá a do Capitam (a do Zarco) and > > in > > short, he had more power than the "Capitam" of Madeira who naturally was > a > > Gonçalves Zarco . > > > > That corregedor became famous not only because of his actions, but > because > > he had majestic powers as no one had before him. He was "governador, > > ouvidor > > e Vedor da fazenda. He had at his service as "escrivão" and "chanceler da > > correição" Jerónimo Vieira, moço-fidalgo, and more personnel. > > Anyway during the period of time that Francisco Rodrigues had the > > government > > he ruled the three "Capitanias" of Madeira archipelago. (More than Jardim > > today!) ; -))) > > > > > > > > > So, uisnng your argument all the ARM is guaranteeing is that she is a > > > Beatriz Chamorra. > > > > > > Not only that, even more important than that, the ARM is guaranteeing > that > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is "de Gouveia" and Licenciado, and > > historically speaking he is infinitely more important than Beatriz > > Chamorra. > > > > > > But one point not clarified remains. Is the famous corregedor Francisco > > Rodrigues the same as Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? That's one of the > > major points to be cleared. As Francisco Rodrigues is quite a common name > > there could be, there could even be two Licenciados with almost the same > > name, no big deal. > > > > > > > Now, you and I, know that the possibility of another Francisco > > > Rodrigues Gouveia, Licenciado marrying a Beatriz Chamorra at this time > > > in Funchal, Madeira is highly improbable. > > > > > > > And that would be almost absolutely improbable. In that time there were > > very > > few people of both sides (Rodrigues de Gouveia and Chamorros) to have > that > > circumstance happening. > > > > > > > Therefore I agree with you but we are still at a dead's end with > beatriz. > > > > > > > It has some shades of a dead end situation. But has some vistas over > other > > possibilities. So it's not a total dead end, rather a dead end with > > openness > > and some light at the end of the end of the tunnel. > > > > > > > > > Keep exercising! > > > > > > > I will, for sure. Give it a try! > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > José > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >