Pat, They were available in the NESOS site. Now only people who downloaded them have them. I have one copy of it, (as well as Castros, Tteixeiras, Vaz Rego, Lopes Esteves. Freitas Martins and Azevedos) but no scanner for the moment. Hopefully José has a scanner. Cheers, Miguel 2010/1/9 Pat Corbera <[email protected]> > Miguel and Jose, > > I have the Vaz collection booklets, but they only go to the surname Calacas > Mideiros. > > This may be a very dumb question, but it won't be the first dumb question > that I have ever asked, and most likely it won't be the last... > > Where do I find the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy by Vaz ? > > Pat > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jose Fernandes" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected], [email protected] > Sent: Friday, January 8, 2010 7:42:20 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João > Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) > > Cecce, > Do you have the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy by Vaz? > If not and if I remember and when I get back to the office on Monday, I > will send you that and then you can figure all of that. > > Jose > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Cece Camara > Sent: January 8, 2010 8:59 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA]Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João > Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) > > People, people...be kinder to us novices that are trying to put these > pieces > together for the first time!!! > > So I think I understand that Isabel Ferreira de Castro (married to ??) and > Ana de Castro (married to ??) are both the daughters of Dr. Diogo de Castro > & Margarida Ferreira.(correct me if I'm wrong) > And that Manuel de Gouveia Pacheco (married to ???) is the son of Ana de > Castro and (???) > > And now can you tell me how any of these peoople tie in to any of the > people > below as I don't see any common names there? > I do have a couple of the people above and a couple of the people below and > am desperately trying to make this association that is so clear to the both > of you;-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:46 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA]Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João > Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) > > Miguel, > It is a good story. But are you suggesting that someone married into the > family? > Yes, in fact Vaz says that Manuel de Gouveia Pacheco took the name of > Pacheco from his mother "pois que seus primos, filhos duma tia, Isabel > Ferreira Castro, irma de sua mae, tomaram também o mesmo apelido Pacheco'. > > His mother was Ana de Castro, and her parents and Isabel's were Dr. Diogo > de > Castro e Margarida Ferreira. > So my friend from Alentejo, it is more than a conjecture, you are right! > But > you did go through a more complicated way! > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:52 PM > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João > Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) > > João Rodrigues Escórcio is a key figure for understanding the emergence of > the Pacheco name in the Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > Let us see why, > > 1. He appears as "testemunha" in Rui Chamorro ( son of F.co Rodrigues de > Gouveua and brites CVhamorra) with Isabel Leal. > 2. He appears as testamenteiro, in Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveria (brother of > Rui Chamorro) will. Testamenteiros were normally relatives. > > So he is a figure close to this family. Because he is relative? probably- > > Let's see João Rodrigues Escórcio genealogy. > > > 1. João Rodrigues Arraes, Escudeiro FCR, An interesting Arrais because he > is > supposed to be the first Arrais in madeira. He wrote his "testamento" in > 1517, He was the administrator of a Capela in Sintra, Portugal. je married > Leonor Escórcio, dau. of our well known the Magnificent João de leiria and > Isabel Eanes Escórcio. tehy had. > 2. Diogo Rodrigues Escórcio (fez testamento em 1533). m. Juliana Giraldes, > dau, of Gerlado Anes , and sister of Gaspar Rodrigues teixeira (who had a > coat of arms for Teixeiras inm 135r). sons of Lourenço Rodrigues teixeiram > and g. sons of "The Gordo." > > 3. João Rodrigues Escórcio m. Maria Pacheco " (Here is the Hare!), dau. of > Àlvaro da Fonseca and Isabel Pacheco - This later was the dau of Pedro de > Escobar and Margarida Pacheco (title Escobar). > > Note - margarida pacheco was the g. dau, of Gomes Pacheco, Fidalgo da Casa > Real. IMO the Rodrigues de Gouveia used the Pacheco name just because of > this Gomes Pacheco, a very illustrious figure. > > So my conjecture is that the Pacheco that the Rodrigues de Gouveia used for > two generations is this one, comes from that Gomes Pacheco. and no other. > > In a next mail we'll have a look at the Escobanms. > > Not jews, but from old Spanish families of first magnitude. > > (To be continued) > > > Miguel > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Guess this answers that ;-) > > Cece > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > Castro Henriques > > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 8:24 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Miguel, > > > After a good night's reflection (?), I won't discuss my opinion on > > > whether in the present unitary constitution of the Portuguese > > > Republic, Madeira's regional government has the power of a "state" > > > (Estado), but let's just consider that in this case ARM has taken a > > > position. Consider that in spite of the certificate saying that > > > Beatriz is a Gonçalves Leão de Chamorro, they have not incorporated > > > that when they digitalized the info. I mean that you put that name > > > in the Data base and you get nothing. That is not normal. Why did > > > they do > > that? > > > > > > > The omnipotent and menacing shade of god-the-father! I mean probably > > the ghost of Meneses Vaz paralyzed them. So they co-opted. They > > compromised, and instead of her full name they just wrote Beatriz > > Chamorra, but they conceded the Dr,.(instead of Licenciado) to > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > > Now there was for sure an archi-famous Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues > > - never referred as de Gouveia - around 1555 and 1557. He was > > corregedor, ( corregedor da Capitania da Cidade do Funchal, Procurador > > das Capellas, Orphãos e Resíduos e fazenda, etc. com larguissimos > > poderes e Alçada, porque além das Corregedroias das Comarcas lhe dá a > > do Capitam (a do Zarco) and in short, he had more power than the > > "Capitam" of Madeira who naturally was a Gonçalves Zarco . > > > > That corregedor became famous not only because of his actions, but > > because he had majestic powers as no one had before him. He was > > "governador, ouvidor e Vedor da fazenda. He had at his service as > > "escrivão" and "chanceler da correição" Jerónimo Vieira, moço-fidalgo, > > and more personnel. > > Anyway during the period of time that Francisco Rodrigues had the > > government he ruled the three "Capitanias" of Madeira archipelago. > > (More than Jardim > > today!) ; -))) > > > > > > > > > So, uisnng your argument all the ARM is guaranteeing is that she is > > > a Beatriz Chamorra. > > > > > > Not only that, even more important than that, the ARM is guaranteeing > > that Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is "de Gouveia" and Licenciado, > > and historically speaking he is infinitely more important than Beatriz > > Chamorra. > > > > > > But one point not clarified remains. Is the famous corregedor > > Francisco Rodrigues the same as Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? That's > > one of the major points to be cleared. As Francisco Rodrigues is quite > > a common name there could be, there could even be two Licenciados with > > almost the same name, no big deal. > > > > > > > Now, you and I, know that the possibility of another Francisco > > > Rodrigues Gouveia, Licenciado marrying a Beatriz Chamorra at this > > > time in Funchal, Madeira is highly improbable. > > > > > > > And that would be almost absolutely improbable. In that time there > > were very few people of both sides (Rodrigues de Gouveia and > > Chamorros) to have that circumstance happening. > > > > > > > Therefore I agree with you but we are still at a dead's end with > beatriz. > > > > > > > It has some shades of a dead end situation. But has some vistas over > > other possibilities. So it's not a total dead end, rather a dead end > > with openness and some light at the end of the end of the tunnel. > > > > > > > > > Keep exercising! > > > > > > > I will, for sure. Give it a try! > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > José > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this > incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.119/2586 - Release Date: 01/08/10 > 07:35:00 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
Miguel and Cece, Thank you... Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, January 9, 2010 2:20:02 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) Pat, They were available in the NESOS site. Now only people who downloaded them have them. I have one copy of it, (as well as Castros, Tteixeiras, Vaz Rego, Lopes Esteves. Freitas Martins and Azevedos) but no scanner for the moment. Hopefully José has a scanner. Cheers, Miguel 2010/1/9 Pat Corbera <[email protected]> > Miguel and Jose, > > I have the Vaz collection booklets, but they only go to the surname Calacas > Mideiros. > > This may be a very dumb question, but it won't be the first dumb question > that I have ever asked, and most likely it won't be the last... > > Where do I find the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy by Vaz ? > > Pat > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jose Fernandes" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected], [email protected] > Sent: Friday, January 8, 2010 7:42:20 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João > Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) > > Cecce, > Do you have the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy by Vaz? > If not and if I remember and when I get back to the office on Monday, I > will send you that and then you can figure all of that. > > Jose > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Cece Camara > Sent: January 8, 2010 8:59 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA]Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João > Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) > > People, people...be kinder to us novices that are trying to put these > pieces > together for the first time!!! > > So I think I understand that Isabel Ferreira de Castro (married to ??) and > Ana de Castro (married to ??) are both the daughters of Dr. Diogo de Castro > & Margarida Ferreira.(correct me if I'm wrong) > And that Manuel de Gouveia Pacheco (married to ???) is the son of Ana de > Castro and (???) > > And now can you tell me how any of these peoople tie in to any of the > people > below as I don't see any common names there? > I do have a couple of the people above and a couple of the people below and > am desperately trying to make this association that is so clear to the both > of you;-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:46 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA]Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João > Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) > > Miguel, > It is a good story. But are you suggesting that someone married into the > family? > Yes, in fact Vaz says that Manuel de Gouveia Pacheco took the name of > Pacheco from his mother "pois que seus primos, filhos duma tia, Isabel > Ferreira Castro, irma de sua mae, tomaram também o mesmo apelido Pacheco'. > > His mother was Ana de Castro, and her parents and Isabel's were Dr. Diogo > de > Castro e Margarida Ferreira. > So my friend from Alentejo, it is more than a conjecture, you are right! > But > you did go through a more complicated way! > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:52 PM > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João > Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) > > João Rodrigues Escórcio is a key figure for understanding the emergence of > the Pacheco name in the Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > Let us see why, > > 1. He appears as "testemunha" in Rui Chamorro ( son of F.co Rodrigues de > Gouveua and brites CVhamorra) with Isabel Leal. > 2. He appears as testamenteiro, in Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveria (brother of > Rui Chamorro) will. Testamenteiros were normally relatives. > > So he is a figure close to this family. Because he is relative? probably- > > Let's see João Rodrigues Escórcio genealogy. > > > 1. João Rodrigues Arraes, Escudeiro FCR, An interesting Arrais because he > is > supposed to be the first Arrais in madeira. He wrote his "testamento" in > 1517, He was the administrator of a Capela in Sintra, Portugal. je married > Leonor Escórcio, dau. of our well known the Magnificent João de leiria and > Isabel Eanes Escórcio. tehy had. > 2. Diogo Rodrigues Escórcio (fez testamento em 1533). m. Juliana Giraldes, > dau, of Gerlado Anes , and sister of Gaspar Rodrigues teixeira (who had a > coat of arms for Teixeiras inm 135r). sons of Lourenço Rodrigues teixeiram > and g. sons of "The Gordo." > > 3. João Rodrigues Escórcio m. Maria Pacheco " (Here is the Hare!), dau. of > Àlvaro da Fonseca and Isabel Pacheco - This later was the dau of Pedro de > Escobar and Margarida Pacheco (title Escobar). > > Note - margarida pacheco was the g. dau, of Gomes Pacheco, Fidalgo da Casa > Real. IMO the Rodrigues de Gouveia used the Pacheco name just because of > this Gomes Pacheco, a very illustrious figure. > > So my conjecture is that the Pacheco that the Rodrigues de Gouveia used for > two generations is this one, comes from that Gomes Pacheco. and no other. > > In a next mail we'll have a look at the Escobanms. > > Not jews, but from old Spanish families of first magnitude. > > (To be continued) > > > Miguel > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Guess this answers that ;-) > > Cece > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > Castro Henriques > > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 8:24 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Miguel, > > > After a good night's reflection (?), I won't discuss my opinion on > > > whether in the present unitary constitution of the Portuguese > > > Republic, Madeira's regional government has the power of a "state" > > > (Estado), but let's just consider that in this case ARM has taken a > > > position. Consider that in spite of the certificate saying that > > > Beatriz is a Gonçalves Leão de Chamorro, they have not incorporated > > > that when they digitalized the info. I mean that you put that name > > > in the Data base and you get nothing. That is not normal. Why did > > > they do > > that? > > > > > > > The omnipotent and menacing shade of god-the-father! I mean probably > > the ghost of Meneses Vaz paralyzed them. So they co-opted. They > > compromised, and instead of her full name they just wrote Beatriz > > Chamorra, but they conceded the Dr,.(instead of Licenciado) to > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > > Now there was for sure an archi-famous Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues > > - never referred as de Gouveia - around 1555 and 1557. He was > > corregedor, ( corregedor da Capitania da Cidade do Funchal, Procurador > > das Capellas, Orphãos e Resíduos e fazenda, etc. com larguissimos > > poderes e Alçada, porque além das Corregedroias das Comarcas lhe dá a > > do Capitam (a do Zarco) and in short, he had more power than the > > "Capitam" of Madeira who naturally was a Gonçalves Zarco . > > > > That corregedor became famous not only because of his actions, but > > because he had majestic powers as no one had before him. He was > > "governador, ouvidor e Vedor da fazenda. He had at his service as > > "escrivão" and "chanceler da correição" Jerónimo Vieira, moço-fidalgo, > > and more personnel. > > Anyway during the period of time that Francisco Rodrigues had the > > government he ruled the three "Capitanias" of Madeira archipelago. > > (More than Jardim > > today!) ; -))) > > > > > > > > > So, uisnng your argument all the ARM is guaranteeing is that she is > > > a Beatriz Chamorra. > > > > > > Not only that, even more important than that, the ARM is guaranteeing > > that Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is "de Gouveia" and Licenciado, > > and historically speaking he is infinitely more important than Beatriz > > Chamorra. > > > > > > But one point not clarified remains. Is the famous corregedor > > Francisco Rodrigues the same as Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? That's > > one of the major points to be cleared. As Francisco Rodrigues is quite > > a common name there could be, there could even be two Licenciados with > > almost the same name, no big deal. > > > > > > > Now, you and I, know that the possibility of another Francisco > > > Rodrigues Gouveia, Licenciado marrying a Beatriz Chamorra at this > > > time in Funchal, Madeira is highly improbable. > > > > > > > And that would be almost absolutely improbable. In that time there > > were very few people of both sides (Rodrigues de Gouveia and > > Chamorros) to have that circumstance happening. > > > > > > > Therefore I agree with you but we are still at a dead's end with > beatriz. > > > > > > > It has some shades of a dead end situation. But has some vistas over > > other possibilities. So it's not a total dead end, rather a dead end > > with openness and some light at the end of the end of the tunnel. > > > > > > > > > Keep exercising! > > > > > > > I will, for sure. Give it a try! > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > José