Both the Roz and Isaura were taken directly from the Azevedos Cardosos by Pelo Conego Fernando Meneses Vaz. This one has been a nightmare for me to work as he uses different names for the same person in many places...and in addition there appears to be some possible errors in connections. I'm about to give up on this one ;-) Cece _____ From: Miguel de Castro Henriques [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 7:23 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos Hello Cece, Let's start somewhere. Raz or Rás not Roz. It's a full name, not an abbreviation of Rodrigues. It could be derived from Arrais. Isoa not Isaura. Isoa is derived from Iseult or Yseult. From the classical Tristan and Iseult Arthurian story. Centuries before de Da Vinci Code, Madeiran gentry, especially from Gaula, was very keen on giving Arthurian names to their issue: Lançarote, from Lancelot. Galaz, from Sir Galahad, Tristão from Sir Tristram. (As a name, Isaura only appears in Madeira in the 19 th century, so it is quite a modern name) Título Henriques Alemão, starts with Henrique Alemâo, da Madalena do Mar, one of the most mysterious figures from Madeira Island. He had a title: Cavaleiro da Ordem de Santa Catarina do Monte Sinai. married Senhorinha Anes, from Algarvian and noble origins. So much has been written about Henrique Alemão that it is difficult to say more. He is madeiran myth Número Um, since then and probably will stay. (More than Ronaldo...). Nobiliários and legend had him as "Prince Polónio", prince from Poland. In those times anyone from north of France upwards was whatever his country "Alemão". The myth reports that he was actually the King of Poland himself, Ladislas Jagiello, who disappeared after the battle of Varna against the turks commanded by the legendary Sultan Ammurates. Books have been written by celebrated madeiran authors like Reis Gomes (O Cavaleiro de Santa Catarina). So what would you want more: a medieval king, a warrior, who disappears from the historical scene, only to re-emerge years later as a errant Knight in Madeira island? He never claimed he was that lost King. He was treated by Zarco, the Captain Donatário, with exceptional consideration and regards. When invited to Zarco's house - and Zarco was the leading man in Madeira, Zarco in person - not a mere servant - would serve him his meals, in "baixela de prata." This tells loads about the status of the caracther. When he was recognised as the lost King of Polland by several monks who had come from Polland to Madeira to implore him to return to his kingom, he dismissed them saying: Fools! But it seems that some time later the King of Portugal sent a ship to Madeira to bring him to Portugal. legend has that it was that when he was going by boat from Madalena do Mar to Funchal, to get on board, some rocks from a cliff fell down and the boat sank, and all the crew and passengers perished. Parts of his body were recovered from the sea. My brother, in Madeira saw his stone grave in which it is inscribed the Wheel of St. Catarina, the only coat of arms he ever used in Madeira. Right now in the most charming town of the whole world, Lisbon, at Museu de Arte Antiga there is currently an exhibition of madeiran paintings. One of the paintings, the most famous (from the 15 th century, Flanders school) is supposed to represent Henrique Alemão,posing as Saint Joachim, and Senhorinha Anes, as Saint Anne - the parents of the Virgin Mary. To be continued some day. Miguel On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 2:01 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: Just working this genealogia as the first few names in it are direct for me (namely Catarina Pires de Quintal, daughter of Pedro Lopes de Quintal). Further on I came across Nuno Goncalves Cardoso who married (it says) Catarina de Roz daughter of Nicolau de Roz and Isaura Perestrello. I've never seen the name Roz before - and it does not appear to be an abbreviation for Rodrigues as I initially thought. It also says they are from the Titulo de Henriques Alemao- another one I am not familiar with. Just thought I'd see if anyone can shed any more light on either of these names. Cece ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.131/2609 - Release Date: 01/09/10 07:35:00

Cece, Yes the ACs are one of the more tough títulos to go through. But I like it difficult. I am on it since 5 years or so.I might have not progressed half an inch. But then I am like a crocodile, as soon as it bites something never let go. Your prize there is HA., the top prize of all madeiran genealogical research, so better think twice before giving up. Speaking about that who or what would be the top treasures to find in one's own tree? (if there is such a thing as "own tree", because after some generations any tree inter-links with other people's trees in many ways) Anyway, personally, for my family panteon,: the poets, the poets first of all, João Gomes, Tristão das Damas, João Rodrigues Cabral, Gomes Leal, Cabral do Nascimento, Herberto Helder, António de Aragão...I got a direct connection with the 3 first, an indirect with Gomes Leal ) (the greatest portuguese symbolist poet) and Herberto is simply the best from the contemporaries of all Portugal and Palops. I am investogating his Ferreiras. With Cabral do Nascimento, and indirect connection he was linked to the Caiados, and also the Cabrais, and one day I'll find a connection with the Rodrigues Lourenço, from Ponta do Pargo, and voilà, Then as second best I treasure the navigators themselves: Zarco, and his first companions (I already posted a list of them all, collected by prof. Joel Serrão, a great madeiran and historian). I think it was one of my first posts on this list. Then I don't know why, well I know a bit why ( they're such a chaotic, complex and tragic family) the first Perestrelos. Then the first settlers and sesmeiros. I am aware that I should have a top ten list, well, but that's a start. Fialgos and nobles don't interest me that much. But they are generally nice to find because sometimes they lead to medieval Portugal, my favorite period. generally they are prolific people, not only within the realms of their oficial family, but ouit of it. Bastards are so many. Natural sons and daugthers. Some were carefully hiddedn, others not so much. I got loads. They become secondary lines. They are sinuous, baroque, and romantic if not libertine. I like complexity, caracther, hidden things, you see. What I don't liked (in my research) was to stumble upon any Gonçalves.,As research progressed they would lead to other Gonçalves endlessly. My! How they like that name Gonçalves. And I have loads of them in my tree, But recently I believe I started to overcome that prejudice against Gonçalves because a couple of Gonçalves lead me to the JRT, "O Gordo" (and I don't know why I always liked that guy, now I know why, noblesse oblige) , also Afonso da Mata, and an interesting Isabel Arrais de Mendonça. So, Ok, there are Gonçalves and Gonçalves. One of the misleading Gonçalves I encountered was a Gonçalves da Câmara ( 16 th century). When one starts this genealogical saga one's own tree is central. (at least for me it was) Then "one's own" treesomehow starts to loose its importance or centrality. One discovers one descends from all mankind. One own's tree opens its vistas to a broader picture: it becomes like a genealogical mandala, all including. Fun how genealogy helps psychological growth, and becomes a tool for the open mind. Well, hope I did'nt bore you with my philosophical considerations. Great weather in here, though terribly cold. (for us, cold is 7 º C above zero). Miguel On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > > Both the Roz and Isaura were taken directly from the Azevedos Cardosos by > Pelo Conego Fernando Meneses Vaz. > This one has been a nightmare for me to work as he uses different names for > the same person in many places...and in addition there appears to be some > possible errors in connections. > I'm about to give up on this one ;-) > > Cece > > > _____ > > From: Miguel de Castro Henriques [mailto:[email protected] > ] > Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 7:23 AM > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos > > > Hello Cece, > > Let's start somewhere. > > > Raz or Rás not Roz. It's a full name, not an abbreviation of Rodrigues. It > could be derived from Arrais. > > Isoa not Isaura. Isoa is derived from Iseult or Yseult. From the classical > Tristan and Iseult Arthurian story. Centuries before de Da Vinci Code, > Madeiran gentry, especially from Gaula, was very keen on giving Arthurian > names to their issue: Lançarote, from Lancelot. Galaz, from Sir Galahad, > Tristão from Sir Tristram. (As a name, Isaura only appears in Madeira in > the > 19 th century, so it is quite a modern name) > > Título Henriques Alemão, starts with Henrique Alemâo, da Madalena do Mar, > one of the most mysterious figures from Madeira Island. He had a title: > Cavaleiro da Ordem de Santa Catarina do Monte Sinai. married Senhorinha > Anes, from Algarvian and noble origins. So much has been written about > Henrique Alemão that it is difficult to say more. He is madeiran myth > Número > Um, since then and probably will stay. (More than Ronaldo...). Nobiliários > and legend had him as "Prince Polónio", prince from Poland. In those times > anyone from north of France upwards was whatever his country "Alemão". The > myth reports that he was actually the King of Poland himself, Ladislas > Jagiello, who disappeared after the battle of Varna against the turks > commanded by the legendary Sultan Ammurates. Books have been written by > celebrated madeiran authors like Reis Gomes (O Cavaleiro de Santa > Catarina). > So what would you want more: a medieval king, a warrior, who disappears > from > the historical scene, only to re-emerge years later as a errant Knight in > Madeira island? He never claimed he was that lost King. > He was treated by Zarco, the Captain Donatário, with exceptional > consideration and regards. When invited to Zarco's house - and Zarco was > the > leading man in Madeira, Zarco in person - not a mere servant - would serve > him his meals, in "baixela de prata." This tells loads about the status of > the caracther. > When he was recognised as the lost King of Polland by several monks who had > come from Polland to Madeira to implore him to return to his kingom, he > dismissed them saying: Fools! > > But it seems that some time later the King of Portugal sent a ship to > Madeira to bring him to Portugal. legend has that it was that when he was > going by boat from Madalena do Mar to Funchal, to get on board, some rocks > from a cliff fell down and the boat sank, and all the crew and passengers > perished. Parts of his body were recovered from the sea. My brother, in > Madeira saw his stone grave in which it is inscribed the Wheel of St. > Catarina, the only coat of arms he ever used in Madeira. > Right now in the most charming town of the whole world, Lisbon, at Museu de > Arte Antiga there is currently an exhibition of madeiran paintings. One of > the paintings, the most famous (from the 15 th century, Flanders school) is > supposed to represent Henrique Alemão,posing as Saint Joachim, and > Senhorinha Anes, as Saint Anne - the parents of the Virgin Mary. > > To be continued some day. > > Miguel > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 2:01 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Just working this genealogia as the first few names in it are direct for me > (namely Catarina Pires de Quintal, daughter of Pedro Lopes de Quintal). > Further on I came across Nuno Goncalves Cardoso who married (it says) > Catarina de Roz daughter of Nicolau de Roz and Isaura Perestrello. > I've never seen the name Roz before - and it does not appear to be an > abbreviation for Rodrigues as I initially thought. It also says they are > from the Titulo de Henriques Alemao- another one I am not familiar with. > Just thought I'd see if anyone can shed any more light on either of these > names. > Cece > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.131/2609 - Release Date: 01/09/10 > 07:35:00 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

That Cónego! So we caught him modernizing Iseu or Isoa! mmmm. Isaura (sorry any Isauras reading this) is rather vulgar. But Iseu or Isoa has another ring. Miguel > > On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Both the Roz and Isaura were taken directly from the Azevedos Cardosos by >> Pelo Conego Fernando Meneses Vaz. >> This one has been a nightmare for me to work as he uses different names >> for >> the same person in many places...and in addition there appears to be some >> possible errors in connections. >> I'm about to give up on this one ;-) >> >> Cece >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: Miguel de Castro Henriques [mailto: >> [email protected]] >> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 7:23 AM >> To: [email protected]; [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos >> >> >> Hello Cece, >> >> Let's start somewhere. >> >> >> Raz or Rás not Roz. It's a full name, not an abbreviation of Rodrigues. It >> could be derived from Arrais. >> >> Isoa not Isaura. Isoa is derived from Iseult or Yseult. From the classical >> Tristan and Iseult Arthurian story. Centuries before de Da Vinci Code, >> Madeiran gentry, especially from Gaula, was very keen on giving Arthurian >> names to their issue: Lançarote, from Lancelot. Galaz, from Sir Galahad, >> Tristão from Sir Tristram. (As a name, Isaura only appears in Madeira in >> the >> 19 th century, so it is quite a modern name) >> >> Título Henriques Alemão, starts with Henrique Alemâo, da Madalena do Mar, >> one of the most mysterious figures from Madeira Island. He had a title: >> Cavaleiro da Ordem de Santa Catarina do Monte Sinai. married Senhorinha >> Anes, from Algarvian and noble origins. So much has been written about >> Henrique Alemão that it is difficult to say more. He is madeiran myth >> Número >> Um, since then and probably will stay. (More than Ronaldo...). Nobiliários >> and legend had him as "Prince Polónio", prince from Poland. In those times >> anyone from north of France upwards was whatever his country "Alemão". The >> myth reports that he was actually the King of Poland himself, Ladislas >> Jagiello, who disappeared after the battle of Varna against the turks >> commanded by the legendary Sultan Ammurates. Books have been written by >> celebrated madeiran authors like Reis Gomes (O Cavaleiro de Santa >> Catarina). >> So what would you want more: a medieval king, a warrior, who disappears >> from >> the historical scene, only to re-emerge years later as a errant Knight in >> Madeira island? He never claimed he was that lost King. >> He was treated by Zarco, the Captain Donatário, with exceptional >> consideration and regards. When invited to Zarco's house - and Zarco was >> the >> leading man in Madeira, Zarco in person - not a mere servant - would serve >> him his meals, in "baixela de prata." This tells loads about the status of >> the caracther. >> When he was recognised as the lost King of Polland by several monks who >> had >> come from Polland to Madeira to implore him to return to his kingom, he >> dismissed them saying: Fools! >> >> But it seems that some time later the King of Portugal sent a ship to >> Madeira to bring him to Portugal. legend has that it was that when he was >> going by boat from Madalena do Mar to Funchal, to get on board, some rocks >> from a cliff fell down and the boat sank, and all the crew and passengers >> perished. Parts of his body were recovered from the sea. My brother, in >> Madeira saw his stone grave in which it is inscribed the Wheel of St. >> Catarina, the only coat of arms he ever used in Madeira. >> Right now in the most charming town of the whole world, Lisbon, at Museu >> de >> Arte Antiga there is currently an exhibition of madeiran paintings. One of >> the paintings, the most famous (from the 15 th century, Flanders school) >> is >> supposed to represent Henrique Alemão,posing as Saint Joachim, and >> Senhorinha Anes, as Saint Anne - the parents of the Virgin Mary. >> >> To be continued some day. >> >> Miguel >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 2:01 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Just working this genealogia as the first few names in it are direct for >> me >> (namely Catarina Pires de Quintal, daughter of Pedro Lopes de Quintal). >> Further on I came across Nuno Goncalves Cardoso who married (it says) >> Catarina de Roz daughter of Nicolau de Roz and Isaura Perestrello. >> I've never seen the name Roz before - and it does not appear to be an >> abbreviation for Rodrigues as I initially thought. It also says they are >> from the Titulo de Henriques Alemao- another one I am not familiar with. >> Just thought I'd see if anyone can shed any more light on either of these >> names. >> Cece >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> Internal Virus Database is out of date. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.131/2609 - Release Date: >> 01/09/10 >> 07:35:00 >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >