Agrela does not state the year. In a message dated 1/7/2010 2:58:39 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, [email protected] writes: In which year? On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 1:45 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Miguel > > I have the same isabel marrying Andre Araujo. Info by Agrella. Did she > married twice? Was the same person? > > Thanks > > Leandro > > > In a message dated 1/7/2010 1:46:43 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much > importance > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or > not? > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already dead) > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de > Chamorra !!* > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added with > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no > doubt > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i bet > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that time. > And > containing explosive and brand new information. > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They established > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected by > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a relative? > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say he > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > Beatriz > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz Chamorra? > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central > detail > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and the > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly > existed. > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it before. > And > that, just amazes me. > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the > leading > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I won't > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent in > the > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to refer > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to do > it. > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I have > to > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their > attention, > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from > the > Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > Cheers, > > > Miguel > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
No idea about the time frame? On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 1:59 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Agrela does not state the year. > > > In a message dated 1/7/2010 2:58:39 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > In which year? > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 1:45 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Hi Miguel > > > > I have the same isabel marrying Andre Araujo. Info by Agrella. Did she > > married twice? Was the same person? > > > > Thanks > > > > Leandro > > > > > > In a message dated 1/7/2010 1:46:43 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much > > importance > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or > > not? > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > > > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > > > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already > dead) > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam > de > > Chamorra !!* > > > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added > with > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no > > doubt > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i > bet > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that > time. > > And > > containing explosive and brand new information. > > > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They > established > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected > by > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a > relative? > > > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues > de > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say > he > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de > Gouveia. > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > > > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > > Beatriz > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > > > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz > Chamorra? > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central > > detail > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and > the > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly > > existed. > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it > before. > > And > > that, just amazes me. > > > > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > > > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > > > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > > > > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the > > leading > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I > won't > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent > in > > the > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to > refer > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to > do > > it. > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I > have > > to > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their > > attention, > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. > > > > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends > from > > the > > Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Miguel > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject > > and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >