I'm sorry, José, I'm a bit lost here. Do you also descend from Escolástica de Bettencourt? (She had a capela, did you knew?) Do you descend from his daughter Antónia Maria de Bettencourt (married to António Rodrigues de Gouveia)? Paulo "Fernandes, Jose" <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 7 Jan 2010 09:30:04 -0500: > Miguel, > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among others) > share this family. Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) > grandfather and is though his son Gaspar that the line continues > until our marriage with Escolástica de Bettencourt. > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate and that > if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it to my personal > account. Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my information, > and I share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of the > Leão connection. You don't have Brites parents? They were not > available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have known. Bastard line? > The Alentejo cold does help your research! > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > Castro Henriques > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much importance > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or not? > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already dead) > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de > Chamorra !!* > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added with > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no doubt > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i bet > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that time. And > containing explosive and brand new information. > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They established > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected by > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a relative? > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say he > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. Beatriz > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz Chamorra? > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central detail > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and the > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly existed. > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it before. And > that, just amazes me. > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the leading > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I won't > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent in the > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to refer > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to do it. > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I have to > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their attention, > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from the > Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > Cheers, > > > Miguel > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >