Paulo, I am quite familiar with the Martins de Nobrega of Santo de Serra...and may be back looking for the link as I do not have this Martins de Nobrega ancestor you mention in my tree. Also I am also interested in your João de Abreu e Freitas and D.Mariana de Menezes as they are Porto da Cruz and I am determined to one day link all of Porto da Cruz descendants together ;-) Anyway I have this couple in my tree, although Joao is just Abreu (no de Freitas). I don't however have either Joao de Abreu's parents nor D. Mariana de Menezes parents - if you have either I would be most obliged to get them! (In my tree Joao and Mariana are the parents of D. Catherine de Meneses who married Franciso Marques). Thanks, Cece -----Original Message----- From: Cece Camara [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 9:18 PM To: 'Cece-HQ' Subject: FW: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 11:25 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos Speaking of "prizes"... In the last month I had 2 great discoveries, which gave me the two best genealogical "prizes" of recent times. You see, I always wanted to descend from João Gago the fisherman. You could give me all the poets, kings and noblemen, but each time I cruised that street in Funchal it annoyed me that I had not a decent descent from him (in my lines or otherwise), especially when he left so many direct descendants. João Gago the fisherman has his place in the Pantheon of our first settlers. He was THE fisherman by excellence, father of a progeny of fishermen and seamen, the sea people who lived and worked in that so much beloved, omnipresent, nostalgic sea that is part of the soul of every Maderian. So well known he was, that the street where he lived was known - and named - after him. It was João Gago's street in the 15th century, and it still is today, right there, next to the cathedral, already there when there was still not a cathedral, and Funchal was the most promising village of his time. Anyway, I wanted to be João Gago descendant, and so I am - as I found out after some merges I was doing last month. And if you happen to descend from Pedro Fernandes de Chaves and Jerónima Caldeira (the Aldramas), you too have your passport to João Gago the fisherman, and his his wife Eva Gomes. :) The other breakthrough was in my great-grandmother Clara Pereira, from Monte, whose Pereiras were an early dead-end until very recently. Then I decided to rummage over the Monte christenings in the quest for the holy Pereiras, and TCHARAM - out of the last of those apparently boring Pereiras (in fact his wife, Isidoria Maria) came a pristine line of the best Madeira nobility. Ok, ok, not so pristine, as there is a bastardy, but it was quite unexpected, nevertheless. Isidoria Maria, 6th great-grandmother, wife of José Pereira, living in Monte - Quinta dos Reis, then Levada da Corujeira - Marmeleiros - where my great-grandmother family still lives). Isidoria was in fact daughter of Manuel de Nóbrega Duarte , from Gaula (son of Manuel de Nóbrega Duarte, ancestor of the Martins de Nóbrega, anyone with family in Santo da Serra would be familiar with them) and D. Isabel de Menezes, from Porto da Cruz, daughter of João de Abreu e Freitas and D.Mariana de Menezes, this one illegitimate (so said the genealogies, the marriage records are silent about her mother, while remarking who the father is) daughter of Capitão Jorge Moniz de Menezes, son of Diogo Pereira de Menezes (tº Homens de Sousa) and D.Catarina Leme de Aguiar (tº Morais). With some bias, I could wonder if the legendary prettiness and class of my Pereira great-great-aunts from Monte derived from that new found Olympus. However, after seeing some paintings of the most prominent Madeira nobility, I'm rather prone to believe that the prettiness came from somewhere else. As for the class, they certainly got it at the time they lived in Boston (my dear American aunts! :)). Anyway, we were speaking about Henri the German, my former ancestor: Not anymore. Sometime ago I got tired of hearing the cries of FAKE! FAKE! FAKE! coming from my brain each time I looked at the ancestors of Manuel Afonso Sentido and Guiomar Gomes, supported on some França Dória genealogy mentioned in Ilhas de Zargo. And so I finally unconnected them, putting an end to those tremendously faked ancestries to the Henriques Alemão and Henriques de Noronha, which were bringing more shame than glory. As a reward, I got the answer for one of the most interesting riddles about another setting of Henriques - the Henriques Abreu, also from Camara de Lobos. This time a genuine, credible connection, which brought on the Henriques das Alcaçovas, but that's another story... :) Cheers, Paulo Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote in Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:34:53 +0000: > Cece, > > Yes the ACs are one of the more tough títulos to go through. But I like it > difficult. > I am on it since 5 years or so.I might have not progressed half an inch. But > then I am like a crocodile, as soon as it bites something never let go. > Your prize there is HA., the top prize of all madeiran genealogical > research, so better think twice before giving up. > > > Speaking about that who or what would be the top treasures to find in one's > own tree? (if there is such a thing as "own tree", because after some > generations any tree inter-links with other people's trees in many ways) > > Anyway, personally, for my family panteon,: the poets, the poets first of > all, João Gomes, Tristão das Damas, João Rodrigues Cabral, Gomes Leal, > Cabral do Nascimento, Herberto Helder, António de Aragão...I got a direct > connection with the 3 first, an indirect with Gomes Leal ) (the greatest > portuguese symbolist poet) and Herberto is simply the best from the > contemporaries of all Portugal and Palops. I am investogating his Ferreiras. > With Cabral do Nascimento, and indirect connection he was linked to the > Caiados, and also the Cabrais, and one day I'll find a connection with the > Rodrigues Lourenço, from Ponta do Pargo, and voilà, > > Then as second best I treasure the navigators themselves: Zarco, and his > first companions (I already posted a list of them all, collected by prof. > Joel Serrão, a great madeiran and historian). I think it was one of my first > posts on this list. > > Then I don't know why, well I know a bit why ( they're such a chaotic, > complex and tragic family) the first Perestrelos. > > Then the first settlers and sesmeiros. > > I am aware that I should have a top ten list, well, but that's a start. > > Fialgos and nobles don't interest me that much. But they are generally nice > to find because sometimes they lead to medieval Portugal, my favorite > period. generally they are prolific people, not only within the realms of > their oficial family, but ouit of it. Bastards are so many. Natural sons and > daugthers. Some were carefully hiddedn, others not so much. I got loads. > They become secondary lines. They are sinuous, baroque, and romantic if not > libertine. I like complexity, caracther, hidden things, you see. > > What I don't liked (in my research) was to stumble upon any Gonçalves.,As > research progressed they would lead to other Gonçalves endlessly. My! How > they like that name Gonçalves. And I have loads of them in my tree, But > recently I believe I started to overcome that prejudice against Gonçalves > because a couple of Gonçalves lead me to the JRT, "O Gordo" (and I don't > know why I always liked that guy, now I know why, noblesse oblige) , also > Afonso da Mata, and an interesting Isabel Arrais de Mendonça. So, Ok, there > are Gonçalves and Gonçalves. One of the misleading Gonçalves I encountered > was a Gonçalves da Câmara ( 16 th century). > > When one starts this genealogical saga one's own tree is central. (at least > for me it was) Then "one's own" treesomehow starts to loose its importance > or centrality. One discovers one descends from all mankind. One own's tree > opens its vistas to a broader picture: it becomes like a genealogical > mandala, all including. > > Fun how genealogy helps psychological growth, and becomes a tool for the > open mind. > > Well, hope I did'nt bore you with my philosophical considerations. Great > weather in here, though terribly cold. (for us, cold is 7 º C above zero). > > > Miguel > > On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Both the Roz and Isaura were taken directly from the Azevedos Cardosos by >> Pelo Conego Fernando Meneses Vaz. >> This one has been a nightmare for me to work as he uses different names for >> the same person in many places...and in addition there appears to be some >> possible errors in connections. >> I'm about to give up on this one ;-) >> >> Cece >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: Miguel de Castro Henriques [mailto:[email protected] >> ] >> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 7:23 AM >> To: [email protected]; [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos >> >> >> Hello Cece, >> >> Let's start somewhere. >> >> >> Raz or Rás not Roz. It's a full name, not an abbreviation of Rodrigues. It >> could be derived from Arrais. >> >> Isoa not Isaura. Isoa is derived from Iseult or Yseult. From the classical >> Tristan and Iseult Arthurian story. Centuries before de Da Vinci Code, >> Madeiran gentry, especially from Gaula, was very keen on giving Arthurian >> names to their issue: Lançarote, from Lancelot. Galaz, from Sir Galahad, >> Tristão from Sir Tristram. (As a name, Isaura only appears in Madeira in >> the >> 19 th century, so it is quite a modern name) >> >> Título Henriques Alemão, starts with Henrique Alemâo, da Madalena do Mar, >> one of the most mysterious figures from Madeira Island. He had a title: >> Cavaleiro da Ordem de Santa Catarina do Monte Sinai. married Senhorinha >> Anes, from Algarvian and noble origins. So much has been written about >> Henrique Alemão that it is difficult to say more. He is madeiran myth >> Número >> Um, since then and probably will stay. (More than Ronaldo...). Nobiliários >> and legend had him as "Prince Polónio", prince from Poland. In those times >> anyone from north of France upwards was whatever his country "Alemão". The >> myth reports that he was actually the King of Poland himself, Ladislas >> Jagiello, who disappeared after the battle of Varna against the turks >> commanded by the legendary Sultan Ammurates. Books have been written by >> celebrated madeiran authors like Reis Gomes (O Cavaleiro de Santa >> Catarina). >> So what would you want more: a medieval king, a warrior, who disappears >> from >> the historical scene, only to re-emerge years later as a errant Knight in >> Madeira island? He never claimed he was that lost King. >> He was treated by Zarco, the Captain Donatário, with exceptional >> consideration and regards. When invited to Zarco's house - and Zarco was >> the >> leading man in Madeira, Zarco in person - not a mere servant - would serve >> him his meals, in "baixela de prata." This tells loads about the status of >> the caracther. >> When he was recognised as the lost King of Polland by several monks who had >> come from Polland to Madeira to implore him to return to his kingom, he >> dismissed them saying: Fools! >> >> But it seems that some time later the King of Portugal sent a ship to >> Madeira to bring him to Portugal. legend has that it was that when he was >> going by boat from Madalena do Mar to Funchal, to get on board, some rocks >> from a cliff fell down and the boat sank, and all the crew and passengers >> perished. Parts of his body were recovered from the sea. My brother, in >> Madeira saw his stone grave in which it is inscribed the Wheel of St. >> Catarina, the only coat of arms he ever used in Madeira. >> Right now in the most charming town of the whole world, Lisbon, at Museu de >> Arte Antiga there is currently an exhibition of madeiran paintings. One of >> the paintings, the most famous (from the 15 th century, Flanders school) is >> supposed to represent Henrique Alemão,posing as Saint Joachim, and >> Senhorinha Anes, as Saint Anne - the parents of the Virgin Mary. >> >> To be continued some day. >> >> Miguel >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 2:01 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Just working this genealogia as the first few names in it are direct for me >> (namely Catarina Pires de Quintal, daughter of Pedro Lopes de Quintal). >> Further on I came across Nuno Goncalves Cardoso who married (it says) >> Catarina de Roz daughter of Nicolau de Roz and Isaura Perestrello. >> I've never seen the name Roz before - and it does not appear to be an >> abbreviation for Rodrigues as I initially thought. It also says they are >> from the Titulo de Henriques Alemao- another one I am not familiar with. >> Just thought I'd see if anyone can shed any more light on either of these >> names. >> Cece >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> Internal Virus Database is out of date. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.131/2609 - Release Date: 01/09/10 >> 07:35:00 >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2667 - Release Date: 02/04/10 07:35:00