Miguel, There is an easy explanation for the Cónego Menezes Vaz "missing" that, and you finding it very reliable. You are looking at a black and white copy, while he (and me as well) looked at the original (or the digitalized version, which is almost the same, I've seen both). Anyone looking at the original would immediately perceive the colour difference, and thus the forgery, as well as the lack of the priest signature validating the correction. That's why he didn't made any case of it. Paulo Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 7 Jan 2010 15:56:23 +0000: > José, > > > > > Miguel, >> Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among others) share this >> family. > > > Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. Were they kindly > leaving something for us to discover? ; -) > > Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar Rodrigues. > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather and is though >> his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage with Escolástica >> de Bettencourt. >> > > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the Rodrigues de > Gouveia > > >> I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate > > > I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a magnificent > handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The addition of beatriz glz de leam > (no capital letters) > is his, no doubt. > > >> and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it to my >> personal account. > > > For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is kaput. > > >> Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. >> I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my information, and I >> share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of the Leão >> connection. > > > It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the clues to find > out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. She must be > one of the persons from that era with the longest name. Trivial as it is > today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those times. > It would have been signaled. > Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". Unusual among the > Chamorras who never used that "de" > > But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the sons used their > father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means that the > Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de Gouveia. So this > allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with the top > Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro Chamorro, FCR. > Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de Gouveia name. > Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible as regards use > of names of the parents. > > >> You don't have Brites parents? > > > No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is presented as dau. of > Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the respectable Meneses > Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to say the least, > questionable. > > But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit that she was > the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in that time the > first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. > > > All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam (Leone?) to our > tree. > > >> They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have known. > > > That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If he did not show > it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he had too. It's > too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a bastard line was > not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did sometimes). > Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. perhaps even > descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the Spínolas. And the > Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam link that > Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. > > >> Bastard line? >> > > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. > > >> The Alentejo cold does help your research! >> >> > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" Scandianavian > countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). Temperatures below zero > in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or whatever, please! > > > Miguel > > José >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto: >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques >> Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> >> I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much >> importance >> at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co >> Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or >> not? >> Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it >> seems that it was not. Let's see why. >> >> Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui >> Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). >> >> She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The >> Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui >> Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already dead) >> and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de >> Chamorra !!* >> >> The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added with >> the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no doubt >> about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i bet >> strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that time. >> And >> containing explosive and brand new information. >> >> The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do >> assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They established >> themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected by >> marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. >> A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a relative? >> >> In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de >> Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say he >> is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several >> leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) >> >> Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. >> Beatriz >> Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º >> >> But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz Chamorra? >> It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central detail >> which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and the >> Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly >> existed. >> This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it before. >> And >> that, just amazes me. >> >> >> The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam >> Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is >> fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. >> >> I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. >> >> Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. >> >> >> I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the >> leading >> genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I won't >> quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the >> Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent in >> the >> old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to refer >> this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as >> stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that >> having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to do >> it. >> Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I have to >> concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their >> attention, >> or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. >> >> >> Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from the >> Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> Miguel >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >