Hello Denise, I seem to recall to have transcribed her death record to the list some time ago, but here it is, nevertheless: //Em vinte e três dias do mês de Outubro de 1560 anos faleceu nesta cidade na Rua do Doutor Jerónimo Gomes defronte de casa dele? Isabel Pires dona viúva fez testamento e mandou se enterrar nesta Sé e deixa por testamenteiro seu fº João Gouveia e o mais me reporto ao dito testamento / deixou codecilho que ela em vida de seu marido fizera e ... testamento declaram seus legados e capela e eu João Gomes cura o escrevi // You may ask a copy of the the original record to ARM, though I advise you that it's not an easy reading. ;) You may name "Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia" as you wish. That person is only indirectly documented. I don't even know if his name is Francisco or otherwise, only that he is a brother of João Gouveia and father of Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveia. As for the Gouveia, it should only be assigned when documented, and it is very well documented for some of the members of the family, though I don't know if it comes from Rodrigo or Isabel. It seems to be, nevertheless, and despite all forgeries, one of the best origins of the Island's Gouveias, in terms of social status. Cheers, Paulo [email protected] wrote in Fri, 9 Jan 2009 10:58:17 EST: > Hello again, > > I have been sifting through some old email one by one! > > A question about the Rodrigues de Gouveia forgery: Based on what is written > below, Isabel Pires should be stripped of the Dona title (done), her husband > I currently have as Rodrigo Anes de Gouveia should be just Rodrigo > Anes...What about their son Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? Should > he still be > carrying that Gouveia name? What about Francisco's decendants; > should they carry > the name? I would be interested in seeing the death record for Isabel > mentioned below as she is my 14th great-grandmother. If you could > post it that > would be wonderful. When did she die? > > > Denise D'Antona > > Do you know anything about my ancestor Brites Chamorra married to >>> Licencidado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? >>> >>> The mother of Lioc. Francisco Rodrigues de G. according to the genealogy >>> of >>> the Rodrigues de Gouveia was D.Isabel Pires. Anything new about her? >>> >> >> That is one of the forged records (and a very rude forgery), which is >> telling. >> I can't say nothing more about them than this. And that she was probably >> descendant from either Pedro Chamorro or his brother Afonso. >> I have doubts about the Pais de Carvalho ancestry. >> >> Isabel Pires was not a "Dona", you may strip that title from her. > > > In one codicilo (document) - that you posted - she is called "dona viúva". > As far as I've seen not all women were always referred as "donas viúvas" in > testamentos. Only few of them. That's what leads me to suspect that the > genealogists took that "dona viúva" in testamentos and other documents to > mean the status that she had when alive.. > > >> >> I'll send the her debt record in another post. >> Francisco is most probably the Francisco, son of Rodrigo Anes and Isabel >> Pires, who received "ordens menores" in Funchal in 1538, thus his filiation >> is probably correct. >> > > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy > steps! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215047751x1200957972/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De > cemailfooterNO62) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Paulo, This guy (?) is my great (12) grandfather. When you have time please refer to a posting from Miguel in the last 2 months. He was excited about an Italian connection to this family and dismissed any forgery allegations. Your comments will obviously most welcome. Don't you also share this line? José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 3:25 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Rodrigues de Gouveia forgery question Hello Denise, I seem to recall to have transcribed her death record to the list some time ago, but here it is, nevertheless: //Em vinte e três dias do mês de Outubro de 1560 anos faleceu nesta cidade na Rua do Doutor Jerónimo Gomes defronte de casa dele? Isabel Pires dona viúva fez testamento e mandou se enterrar nesta Sé e deixa por testamenteiro seu fº João Gouveia e o mais me reporto ao dito testamento / deixou codecilho que ela em vida de seu marido fizera e ... testamento declaram seus legados e capela e eu João Gomes cura o escrevi // You may ask a copy of the the original record to ARM, though I advise you that it's not an easy reading. ;) You may name "Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia" as you wish. That person is only indirectly documented. I don't even know if his name is Francisco or otherwise, only that he is a brother of João Gouveia and father of Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveia. As for the Gouveia, it should only be assigned when documented, and it is very well documented for some of the members of the family, though I don't know if it comes from Rodrigo or Isabel. It seems to be, nevertheless, and despite all forgeries, one of the best origins of the Island's Gouveias, in terms of social status. Cheers, Paulo [email protected] wrote in Fri, 9 Jan 2009 10:58:17 EST: > Hello again, > > I have been sifting through some old email one by one! > > A question about the Rodrigues de Gouveia forgery: Based on what is written > below, Isabel Pires should be stripped of the Dona title (done), her husband > I currently have as Rodrigo Anes de Gouveia should be just Rodrigo > Anes...What about their son Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? Should > he still be > carrying that Gouveia name? What about Francisco's decendants; > should they carry > the name? I would be interested in seeing the death record for Isabel > mentioned below as she is my 14th great-grandmother. If you could > post it that > would be wonderful. When did she die? > > > Denise D'Antona > > Do you know anything about my ancestor Brites Chamorra married to >>> Licencidado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? >>> >>> The mother of Lioc. Francisco Rodrigues de G. according to the genealogy >>> of >>> the Rodrigues de Gouveia was D.Isabel Pires. Anything new about her? >>> >> >> That is one of the forged records (and a very rude forgery), which is >> telling. >> I can't say nothing more about them than this. And that she was probably >> descendant from either Pedro Chamorro or his brother Afonso. >> I have doubts about the Pais de Carvalho ancestry. >> >> Isabel Pires was not a "Dona", you may strip that title from her. > > > In one codicilo (document) - that you posted - she is called "dona viúva". > As far as I've seen not all women were always referred as "donas viúvas" in > testamentos. Only few of them. That's what leads me to suspect that the > genealogists took that "dona viúva" in testamentos and other documents to > mean the status that she had when alive.. > > >> >> I'll send the her debt record in another post. >> Francisco is most probably the Francisco, son of Rodrigo Anes and Isabel >> Pires, who received "ordens menores" in Funchal in 1538, thus his filiation >> is probably correct. >> > > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy > steps! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215047751x1200957972/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De > cemailfooterNO62) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message