That forgery purposing to be from 1539 is so blatant - let's not forget that it is in the oldest parish book of Madeira, written at the free space in the bottom of another record with a much modern letter, raising up from the other records as a Fort Fiesta next to the Parthenon - that it would most certainly ruin the reputation of anyone that would claim its authenticity. ;) Paulo Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 4 Feb 2010 23:36:32 +0000: > I'm sure that the corregedor was from outside the island as well. But there > could be two Licenciados, almost contemporaries, one corregedor and the > other not sharing a ratter common and even epidemic name. > > I did not know that note by Cabral do Nascimento who deserves > consideration, neither I have ever seen the document. I give him however > much credit. > > > However, to present that document on court, and based on solid facts defy > Cabral de Nascimento authority would be momentous ; -)) > > > > > On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 11:24 PM, Paulo Santos Perneta > <[email protected]>wrote: > >> No way that the king would allow the corregedor to be a guy from >> Funchal, son of a former alcaide, brother in law of a powerful >> businessman, with a whole set of clientèle ready to ask for favours >> and claiming paybacks. The corregedors were always - correct me if I'm >> wrong - where always people from outside the Island, so that they >> would not be hostage to the circles of influences already established. >> >> Licº Francisco Rodrigues, the corregedor, was married to Ana de >> Guimarães. That guy should be spinning around in his tomb seeing what >> some selfish, unscrupulous freak trying to nobilitate his own family >> has done to the christening records of his sons. No, he's not the >> Gouveia, and I believe that he has not left any descendants here. >> After his service in the Island he probably returned to Portugal, to >> wherever he came from. >> >> Now, about "Licº Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia" - the record of his >> marriage is noted in the ARM database textually as such, in the notes >> field: "O Dr. Cabral do Nascimento, em nota na folha de rosto do >> livro, considerou este registo apócrifo, não aconselhando, portanto, a >> emissão de certidões. Intromissão de letra posterior, entrelinhada.". >> Of course, they could disregard his advice and issue the certificate >> anyway, but I defy anyone to hold such a thing on court. >> >> Paulo >> >> >> Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote >> in Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:23:45 +0000: >> >> > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> > [email protected]> wrote: >> > >> >> Miguel, >> >> After a good night's reflection (?), I won't discuss my opinion on >> whether >> >> in the present unitary constitution of the Portuguese Republic, >> Madeira's >> >> regional government has the power of a "state" (Estado), but let's just >> >> consider that in this case ARM has taken a position. Consider that in >> spite >> >> of the certificate saying that Beatriz is a Gonçalves Leão de Chamorro, >> they >> >> have not incorporated that when they digitalized the info. I mean that >> you >> >> put that name in the Data base and you get nothing. That is not normal. >> Why >> >> did they do that? >> >> >> > >> > The omnipotent and menacing shade of god-the-father! I mean probably the >> > ghost of Meneses Vaz paralyzed them. So they co-opted. They compromised, >> and >> > instead of her full name they just wrote Beatriz Chamorra, but they >> conceded >> > the Dr,.(instead of Licenciado) to Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> > >> > Now there was for sure an archi-famous Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues - >> > never referred as de Gouveia - around 1555 and 1557. He was corregedor, ( >> > corregedor da Capitania da Cidade do Funchal, Procurador das Capellas, >> > Orphãos e Resíduos e fazenda, etc. com larguissimos poderes e Alçada, >> porque >> > além das Corregedroias das Comarcas lhe dá a do Capitam (a do Zarco) and >> in >> > short, he had more power than the "Capitam" of Madeira who naturally was >> a >> > Gonçalves Zarco . >> > >> > That corregedor became famous not only because of his actions, but >> because >> > he had majestic powers as no one had before him. He was "governador, >> ouvidor >> > e Vedor da fazenda. He had at his service as "escrivão" and "chanceler da >> > correição" Jerónimo Vieira, moço-fidalgo, and more personnel. >> > Anyway during the period of time that Francisco Rodrigues had the >> government >> > he ruled the three "Capitanias" of Madeira archipelago. (More than Jardim >> > today!) ; -))) >> > >> > >> > >> >> So, uisnng your argument all the ARM is guaranteeing is that she is a >> >> Beatriz Chamorra. >> > >> > >> > Not only that, even more important than that, the ARM is guaranteeing >> that >> > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is "de Gouveia" and Licenciado, and >> > historically speaking he is infinitely more important than Beatriz >> Chamorra. >> > >> > >> > But one point not clarified remains. Is the famous corregedor Francisco >> > Rodrigues the same as Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? That's one of the >> > major points to be cleared. As Francisco Rodrigues is quite a common name >> > there could be, there could even be two Licenciados with almost the same >> > name, no big deal. >> > >> > >> >> Now, you and I, know that the possibility of another Francisco Rodrigues >> >> Gouveia, Licenciado marrying a Beatriz Chamorra at this time in Funchal, >> >> Madeira is highly improbable. >> >> >> > >> > And that would be almost absolutely improbable. In that time there were >> very >> > few people of both sides (Rodrigues de Gouveia and Chamorros) to have >> that >> > circumstance happening. >> > >> > >> >> Therefore I agree with you but we are still at a dead's end with >> beatriz. >> >> >> > >> > It has some shades of a dead end situation. But has some vistas over >> other >> > possibilities. So it's not a total dead end, rather a dead end with >> openness >> > and some light at the end of the end of the tunnel. >> > >> > >> > >> >> Keep exercising! >> >> >> > >> > I will, for sure. Give it a try! >> > >> > >> > Cheers, >> > >> > Miguel >> > >> > >> > >> >> Cheers, >> >> José >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: [email protected] [mailto: >> >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> Henriques >> >> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 5:07 PM >> >> To: [email protected] >> >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> >> >> >> Mine is certified. You can ask docs. from ARM in two ways; a( as simple >> >> photocopy . has no kegal value, B) Certified. With the official stamp, >> it >> >> has legal value. It's a certified document that you may use in any legal >> >> undertake. >> >> >> >> So what ARM is saying when it puts the official stamp is: we guarantee >> that >> >> all that this document states is true. And that's precisely what is a >> legal >> >> document about. True facts. Not forgeries. >> >> >> >> Pilates is really great exercise ; -)) >> >> >> >> Miguel >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < >> >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 9:44 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> >> > [email protected]> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> Miguel, >> >> >> Great arguments. However, many of the copies are not certified. Does >> >> that >> >> >> change any of your arguments? >> >> >> I am with you. Now Pilates class? Is this a misspelling? If not is >> this >> >> >> the Pilates from Palestine? What he is doing giving classes in >> Portugal? >> >> >> Wait I know. I will keep it to myself. I heard that the present gov't >> >> has >> >> >> many spies!!!!! >> >> >> >> >> >> Just kidding... >> >> >> José >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: [email protected] [mailto: >> >> >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> >> Henriques >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 4:36 PM >> >> >> To: [email protected] >> >> >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> >> >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Miguel, >> >> >> > I agree with you. Do you think all of this might have to do with >> the >> >> >> Cunha >> >> >> > case? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> José, >> >> >> >> >> >> I really don't see very well the Rodrigues de Gouveia faking all >> these >> >> >> documents (or asking someone to do it) to win the case against the >> all >> >> >> powerful Pedro Álvares da Cunha. The documents had to be checked and >> >> >> re~checked. Pedro Álvares da Cunha was too big a fish to get >> swallowed >> >> by >> >> >> any amount of fake documents. He had the best lawyers and court >> people >> >> and >> >> >> experts working for him. They would detect the slightest >> irregularities >> >> in >> >> >> the papers and documents. Even better than any of us and perhaps any >> >> >> contemporary expert. It was their world, their language, their style >> of >> >> >> writing. They would be able to detect fakers and forgeries quite >> easily. >> >> >> People from these days were subtle..\ Just have a look at their >> >> >> handwriting >> >> >> many times elegant, precise, elaborate.and each one seemed to have >> its >> >> >> personal style. Just compare to today's handwriting- generally >> >> amorphous, >> >> >> poor, without style. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On other hand the document from which I started all my considerations >> is >> >> >> from the ARM database. Now, let me tell this. The ARM is a provider >> of >> >> >> legal documents. The documents we ask to ARM has in its database have >> >> >> legal >> >> >> force to prove something like : our being candidates to a heritage, >> >> asking >> >> >> for a title of nobility, asking for a coat of arms, wanting to change >> >> our >> >> >> name and surname and proving an ancestor had that name, etc. I mean >> >> every >> >> >> register in the ARM is not there per chance. It had to be >> demonstrated >> >> >> that >> >> >> it was accurate, before they included it in their database. So every >> >> >> marriage doc. every baptismal goes through the hands of experts. >> >> Forgeries >> >> >> are no admissible, since they are legal documents guaranteed by the >> >> >> State.. >> >> >> Otherwise no one would take seriously that ARM and its database. Of >> >> >> course, >> >> >> even so, an extremely clever and old forgery could pass the eyes of >> >> >> experts. >> >> >> Though the filters are more and more accurate. I believe we are now >> in >> >> the >> >> >> 2nd and third generation of experts in the ARM after its foundation. >> >> >> Second, >> >> >> at least, though João Cabral could be my ggfather. Moreover they have >> a >> >> >> tradition of very good professionalism. So if they admit a document >> in >> >> >> their >> >> >> database it is only after close scrutiny by experts on the field.. >> And >> >> for >> >> >> scientific and legal reasons it can not be otherwise. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> So we have here an interesting case. If the doc. I have mentioned is >> a >> >> >> forgery, then the experts of the ARM were not able to identify it. >> But I >> >> >> doubt it very strongly. What interests more a genealogist are >> precisely >> >> >> the >> >> >> two first centuries of Madeiran documents. It's there that their >> >> attention >> >> >> is more focused. So, i think that the document I have (the photocopy >> of >> >> >> it) >> >> >> is sound and clear and moreover authenticated by ARM experts. I can >> use >> >> it >> >> >> legally to prove that for instance for having a claim for using the >> >> >> Chamorros coat of arms,. since I descend from them with only three >> >> breaks >> >> >> on >> >> >> the male lineage. I won't, of course. But that's an open possibility >> for >> >> >> somebody else who requires the services of the ARM and finds the very >> >> same >> >> >> document and wants to do that precislçey that. And the ARM documents >> >> have >> >> >> that legal force, they are decisive and final proof. That's why they >> are >> >> >> authenticated, with the seal of the Government. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > One could pick sides in all of this! >> >> >> > It is too bad that Paulo is m.i.a., for he had a strong feeling >> about >> >> >> this. >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Yes. He had a strong stand on all this - But I don't have his >> particular >> >> >> opinion on this document. He contested others. Not this one. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > It is possible that he just chose to believe Bernardo. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Yes. He is a bit fast IMO dismissing the document. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Howver, you make a good case. So what do we do now? Throw out the >> >> >> Carvalho >> >> >> > Pais? >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Not yet, though I am not clinging to them specially. Half of Portugal >> >> >> descends from the Carvalhos de Basto, from which the Carvalhos pais >> are >> >> >> minor madeiran branch. >> >> >> >> >> >> I think we have to study where this Leam link leads. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Hope you are feeling a bit warmer. >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Yeah. Just came from my Pilates class, and am feeling OK. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Miguel >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > José >> >> >> > >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> >> > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> >> >> > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> >> >> Henriques >> >> >> > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:48 PM >> >> >> > To: [email protected] >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> >> >> > >> >> >> > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> >> >> > [email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > Miguel, >> >> >> > > I am just reading the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy, and on note >> #8 >> >> >> > > Bernado Gomes Ferreira (?) writes that there is acertificate of >> >> >> marriage >> >> >> > > for out two, but " existe-mas é como não existisse. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Ah good find José. I missed it. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Obscure words, he said. Anyway he ought to refer to it with more >> >> >> precision, >> >> >> > IMO. And I think that the document is valid, and was all written by >> >> the >> >> >> > hand >> >> >> > of Vicente Afonso, cura. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Now there is no doubt for me that it was written by the Cura >> Vicente >> >> >> > Afonso. >> >> >> > And signed, among others by João Rodrigues Escórcio, who later >> acted >> >> as >> >> >> > testamenteiro of the will of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia, thus >> >> confirming >> >> >> > their relationship. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > However I don't know if Menses Vaz is referring the same document. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > ..E uma cousa inautêntica" and that's why in Bernardo's opinion >> Vaz >> >> >> did >> >> >> > not >> >> >> > > pay attention to it. What do you think of that? >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I think that Menses Vaz had a misfired shot. The document seems to >> me >> >> >> > "cousa >> >> >> > autêntica". It would perhaps alter Menses Vaz genealogy of the >> >> Carvalho >> >> >> > Pais >> >> >> > (as far as beatriz Chamorra is regarded), so the horrified >> magister >> >> >> send >> >> >> > the document to hell, without having the trouble to explain why. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > I guess I am having problems with an Italian connection!!! >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > mmmm. Italian connections are always problematic ; -))) >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Miguel >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > José >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > -----Original Message----- >> >> >> > > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> >> >> > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> >> >> > Henriques >> >> >> > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:43 AM >> >> >> > > To: [email protected] >> >> >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de >> Gouveia >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> >> >> > > [email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > > Miguel, >> >> >> > > > Interesting that the family, as you know, uses Pacheco >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > Yes, for two generations they use Gouveia Pacheco. And with that >> >> name >> >> >> > they >> >> >> > > administer the "Capela" from the morgadio established by Rodrigo >> >> Anes >> >> >> and >> >> >> > > Isabel Pires.. >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > > and only much later goes back to the Rodrigues de Gouveia. That >> is >> >> >> > > somewhat >> >> >> > > > unusual, unless the other names were more powerful. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > > To add to Beatriz's parents' confusion, please remember that >> later >> >> a >> >> >> > > Brites >> >> >> > > > Chamorra wins that famous name trial re: Cunha because her >> >> ancestors >> >> >> > were >> >> >> > > Da >> >> >> > > > Cunha from the Carvalho Pais. So at some time we have to deal >> with >> >> >> that >> >> >> > > > side. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > That famous trial is a powerful piece. As you know they won >> against >> >> D. >> >> >> > > Pedro >> >> >> > > Álvares da Cunha, a grandee of the the Kingdom, Trinchante-Mor da >> >> Casa >> >> >> > > Real, >> >> >> > > (he was also Governor of Madeira), from the archi-noble Cunhas da >> >> >> Tábua. >> >> >> > So >> >> >> > > they probably had access to some documentation that meanwhile was >> >> >> lost. >> >> >> > > Anyway, nice to watch, the obscure Rodrigues de Gouveia defeating >> >> that >> >> >> > Big >> >> >> > > Fish. >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > > Miguel, I real believe that Vaz was not aware of the marriage >> in >> >> Sé. >> >> >> In >> >> >> > > the >> >> >> > > > genealogy, he says that Francisco married around 1540 or later. >> So >> >> >> he >> >> >> > > wasn't >> >> >> > > > aware of this certificate or if he was he dismissed it. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > I was surprised to see on RTPi that Setubal today was going >> colder >> >> >> than >> >> >> > > the >> >> >> > > > interior! >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > Well, I didn't know about that. For the moment it is a sunny >> sunny >> >> >> day, >> >> >> > > cold >> >> >> > > as ice. >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > I am on my 3d cup of steaming tea. One has to drink it fast >> >> otherwise >> >> >> it >> >> >> > > gets cold in no time at all. >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > José >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > -----Original Message----- >> >> >> > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> >> >> > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de >> Castro >> >> >> > > Henriques >> >> >> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:56 AM >> >> >> > > > To: [email protected] >> >> >> > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de >> >> Gouveia >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > José, >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > Miguel, >> >> >> > > > > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among >> others) >> >> >> > share >> >> >> > > > this >> >> >> > > > > family. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. >> Were >> >> >> they >> >> >> > > > kindly >> >> >> > > > leaving something for us to discover? ; -) >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar >> Rodrigues. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather and >> is >> >> >> > though >> >> >> > > > > his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage >> with >> >> >> > > > Escolástica >> >> >> > > > > de Bettencourt. >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the >> >> >> Rodrigues >> >> >> > de >> >> >> > > > Gouveia >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a >> magnificent >> >> >> > > > handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The addition of beatriz >> >> glz >> >> >> de >> >> >> > > leam >> >> >> > > > (no capital letters) >> >> >> > > > is his, no doubt. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > > and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it >> to >> >> >> my >> >> >> > > > > personal account. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is >> >> kaput. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > > Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. >> >> >> > > > > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my >> >> information, >> >> >> > and >> >> >> > > I >> >> >> > > > > share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of >> the >> >> >> Leão >> >> >> > > > > connection. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the >> clues >> >> >> to >> >> >> > > find >> >> >> > > > out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. >> She >> >> >> must >> >> >> > > be >> >> >> > > > one of the persons from that era with the longest name. Trivial >> as >> >> >> it >> >> >> > is >> >> >> > > > today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those >> times. >> >> >> > > > It would have been signaled. >> >> >> > > > Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". Unusual >> >> >> among >> >> >> > the >> >> >> > > > Chamorras who never used that "de" >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco Rodrigues >> de >> >> >> > Gouveia >> >> >> > > > and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the >> sons >> >> >> used >> >> >> > > their >> >> >> > > > father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means >> that >> >> the >> >> >> > > > Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> So >> >> >> this >> >> >> > > > allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with the >> >> top >> >> >> > > > Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro >> >> >> Chamorro, >> >> >> > > FCR. >> >> >> > > > Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de >> >> >> Gouveia >> >> >> > > name. >> >> >> > > > Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible as >> >> >> regards >> >> >> > > use >> >> >> > > > of names of the parents. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > > You don't have Brites parents? >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is presented >> as >> >> >> dau. >> >> >> > > of >> >> >> > > > Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the >> respectable >> >> >> > > Meneses >> >> >> > > > Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to say >> the >> >> >> > least, >> >> >> > > > questionable. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit >> that >> >> >> she >> >> >> > > was >> >> >> > > > the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in >> that >> >> >> time >> >> >> > the >> >> >> > > > first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam >> >> >> (Leone?) >> >> >> > to >> >> >> > > > our >> >> >> > > > tree. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > > They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have >> >> >> known. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If he >> did >> >> >> not >> >> >> > > show >> >> >> > > > it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he had >> >> too. >> >> >> > It's >> >> >> > > > too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a >> bastard >> >> >> line >> >> >> > was >> >> >> > > > not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did >> >> >> sometimes). >> >> >> > > > Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. >> >> perhaps >> >> >> > even >> >> >> > > > descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the >> Spínolas. >> >> >> And >> >> >> > > the >> >> >> > > > Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam >> link >> >> >> that >> >> >> > > > Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > > Bastard line? >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > > The Alentejo cold does help your research! >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" >> >> >> > Scandianavian >> >> >> > > > countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). >> Temperatures >> >> >> below >> >> >> > > zero >> >> >> > > > in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or whatever, >> >> >> please! >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > Miguel >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > José >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > -----Original Message----- >> >> >> > > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> >> >> > > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de >> Castro >> >> >> > > > Henriques >> >> >> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM >> >> >> > > > > To: [email protected] >> >> >> > > > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de >> Gouveia >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede >> >> much >> >> >> > > > > importance >> >> >> > > > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion >> about >> >> >> F.co >> >> >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he >> >> >> Licenciado >> >> >> > or >> >> >> > > > > not? >> >> >> > > > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo >> contended). >> >> >> Well, >> >> >> > it >> >> >> > > > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel >> Leal >> >> m. >> >> >> > Rui >> >> >> > > > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor >> >> Rodrigues. >> >> >> > (The >> >> >> > > > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). >> >> Him, >> >> >> > Rui >> >> >> > > > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> >> >> (already >> >> >> > > dead) >> >> >> > > > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves >> de >> >> >> Leam >> >> >> > > de >> >> >> > > > > Chamorra !!* >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" >> were >> >> >> added >> >> >> > > > with >> >> >> > > > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I >> >> have >> >> >> no >> >> >> > > > doubt >> >> >> > > > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever >> >> forgery, >> >> >> i >> >> >> > > bet >> >> >> > > > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for >> >> that >> >> >> > > time. >> >> >> > > > > And >> >> >> > > > > containing explosive and brand new information. >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do >> >> >> trauto >> >> >> > do >> >> >> > > > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They >> >> >> > > established >> >> >> > > > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, >> >> >> connected >> >> >> > > by >> >> >> > > > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at >> >> >> least. >> >> >> > > > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably >> a >> >> >> > > relative? >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco >> >> >> > Rodrigues >> >> >> > > > de >> >> >> > > > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are >> forced >> >> >> to >> >> >> > say >> >> >> > > > he >> >> >> > > > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues >> de >> >> >> > > Gouveia. >> >> >> > > > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra >> by >> >> >> > several >> >> >> > > > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. >> >> >> > > > > Beatriz >> >> >> > > > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of >> Beatriz >> >> >> > > > Chamorra? >> >> >> > > > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and >> >> >> central >> >> >> > > > detail >> >> >> > > > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the >> >> Leão >> >> >> > and >> >> >> > > > the >> >> >> > > > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) >> >> >> blatantly >> >> >> > > > > existed. >> >> >> > > > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said >> it >> >> >> > > before. >> >> >> > > > > And >> >> >> > > > > that, just amazes me. >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known >> character. >> >> >> Joam >> >> >> > > > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the >> witness >> >> as >> >> >> is >> >> >> > > > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and >> write. >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none >> of >> >> >> the >> >> >> > > > > leading >> >> >> > > > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them >> all >> >> but >> >> >> I >> >> >> > > > won't >> >> >> > > > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who >> wrote >> >> >> the >> >> >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title >> >> >> (patent >> >> >> > > in >> >> >> > > > > the >> >> >> > > > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were >> "condemned" >> >> to >> >> >> > > refer >> >> >> > > > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have >> been >> >> >> as >> >> >> > > > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't >> >> believe >> >> >> > that >> >> >> > > > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too >> >> knowledgeable >> >> >> to >> >> >> > > do >> >> >> > > > > it. >> >> >> > > > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to >> it. >> >> So >> >> >> I >> >> >> > > have >> >> >> > > > to >> >> >> > > > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped >> >> their >> >> >> > > > > attention, >> >> >> > > > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at >> their >> >> >> time. >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira >> >> descends >> >> >> > from >> >> >> > > > the >> >> >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > Cheers, >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > Miguel >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------- >> >> >> > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> >> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> >> >> without >> >> >> > > the >> >> >> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------- >> >> >> > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> >> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> >> >> without >> >> >> > > the >> >> >> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------- >> >> >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> >> >> without >> >> >> > the >> >> >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------- >> >> >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> >> >> without >> >> >> > the >> >> >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > ------------------------------- >> >> >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> >> without >> >> >> the >> >> >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > ------------------------------- >> >> >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> >> without >> >> >> the >> >> >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > ------------------------------- >> >> >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> >> >> the >> >> >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > ------------------------------- >> >> >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> >> >> the >> >> >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> >> the >> >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> >> the >> >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >