2010/2/5 Paulo Santos Perneta <[email protected]> > Comments interlined. :) > > Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote > in Fri, 8 Jan 2010 18:51:56 +0000: > > > João Rodrigues Escórcio is a key figure for understanding the emergence > of > > the Pacheco name in the Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > > Let us see why, > > > > 1. He appears as "testemunha" in Rui Chamorro ( son of F.co Rodrigues de > > Gouveua and brites CVhamorra) with Isabel Leal. > > 2. He appears as testamenteiro, in Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveria (brother > of > > Rui Chamorro) will. Testamenteiros were normally relatives. > > Or friends of the family. Both of them had lands in Santo António, > which explains the connection. > > > So he is a figure close to this family. Because he is relative? probably- > > > > Let's see João Rodrigues Escórcio genealogy. > > > > > > 1. João Rodrigues Arraes, Escudeiro FCR, An interesting Arrais because he > is > > supposed to be the first Arrais in madeira. He wrote his "testamento" in > > 1517, He was the administrator of a Capela in Sintra, Portugal. je > married > > Leonor Escórcio, dau. of our well known the Magnificent João de leiria > and > > Isabel Eanes Escórcio. tehy had. > > So said the genealogies. João de Leiria was so magnificent that I > never saw a single reference to him in the vereações and the > chancelarias. Whatever, in lack of something else more palpable, we > have to accept those things... > Joâo de Leiria was one of Madeira's superstars ; -)) Si non e vero e bene trovato. Because they made him somone almost like Achiles of Troy. . > > João Rodrigues Arrais... Says who? > > Periera de Agrela. (PA) > > 2. Diogo Rodrigues Escórcio (fez testamento em 1533). m. Juliana > Giraldes, > > dau, of Gerlado Anes , and sister of Gaspar Rodrigues teixeira (who had a > > coat of arms for Teixeiras inm 135r). sons of Lourenço Rodrigues > teixeiram > > and g. sons of "The Gordo." > > Says who? :S The same PA. > > > 3. João Rodrigues Escórcio m. Maria Pacheco " (Here is the Hare!), dau. > of > > Àlvaro da Fonseca and Isabel Pacheco - This later was the dau of Pedro de > > Escobar and Margarida Pacheco (title Escobar). > > João Rodrigues Escórcio, Fidalgo da Casa Real. Buys land from > Francisco *Pacheco* Tavares in Madalena (Stº António). Married with > Maria Pacheco da Fonseca, heiress of the 3ª of her mother, Isabel > Pacheca, consisting in more land in Madalena, probably part of a > former large estate that was divided among those Pachecos. The land > was in Madalena, Stº António. > This adds weight to the RG connection both with João Rodrigues Escórcio (PA has him as FCR also) and the Pachecos. > > I have a lot of info on those Pachecos, which I'm still trying to > consolidate. > > Anyway, that Isabel Pacheca couldn't been daughter of Pedro de Escobar > and Isabel Pacheca, since their daughter Isabel was already married to > Gaspar Gonçalves Ferreira. Unless you can show that the 2 Isabel > Pachecas are the same, that connection is incorrect. > Once widow? > > > Note - margarida pacheco was the g. dau, of Gomes Pacheco, Fidalgo da > Casa > > I find very hard that a women who died in 1545 already with married > children of her own (and grown up grand-sons!!) could be the > grand-daughter of a guy who was serving as Homem Bom in the Camara at > 1520. > Not impossible. There was no idade de reforma. A Homem Bom could be 80, 90 y.o. and still serving. And that gives you room for the proposed chronologoly - > > > Real. IMO the Rodrigues de Gouveia used the Pacheco name just because of > > this Gomes Pacheco, a very illustrious figure. > > > So my conjecture is that the Pacheco that the Rodrigues de Gouveia used > for > > two generations is this one, comes from that Gomes Pacheco. and no other. > > First you should be able to prove all those connections that appear > falling out from the sky in teh Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy. Since > most of the parish records of Santo António do not exist, and much of > what exist are copies, we are left with almost nothing from that > source that we could have for granted. > No. We are doing genealogy engineering, building a conjectural line starting almost from very small evidence. The Ferreira name, the Pacheco name. > > We should always depart from what we do know to get what we don't > know, and not the opposite. :S > Two schools of opinion. What if you start building a house by the roof? Today technology affords it. > > > In a next mail we'll have a look at the Escobares. > > > > Not jews, but from old Spanish families of first magnitude. > > Jews, jews, jews, totally jews! eheheheh So much jews that Pedro de > Escobar o velho even instructed that the masses from his vinculo > should be said at a Saturday. I'm sorry Miguel, but I'm quite > convinced that this Pacheco/ Escobar family is indeed a XXN one. > OK. may be. > > Hmm... Mysterious people with Spanish names arriving in Madeira just > after or around the 1492 editals... Hummm... ;) > hehehhe. A lot of mysterious people arrived to Madeira around the fifteen century; -)) The Alemães, the furious and melancolhic Napolitan, Christopher Columbus himself, probably Askenazis disguised as Spanish grandees. ..., > > Paulo > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote in Fri, 5 Feb 2010 00:37:09 +0000: [..] >> So said the genealogies. João de Leiria was so magnificent that I >> never saw a single reference to him in the vereações and the >> chancelarias. Whatever, in lack of something else more palpable, we >> have to accept those things... >> > > Joâo de Leiria was one of Madeira's superstars ; -)) Si non e vero e bene > trovato. Because they made him somone almost like Achiles of Troy. . After seeing all the golden baroque epic origins the Brazilians have invented for their Homem del Rei (which are the Madeira ones, of course, with their humble origins in Ribeira Brava), I've got a good idea about the credibility of all that has been written about those mythical figures from the early Drummond/ Ferreira generations... ;) >> João Rodrigues Arrais... Says who? >> >> Periera de Agrela. (PA) If he don't says where he got it, it has no value... :( >> > 2. Diogo Rodrigues Escórcio (fez testamento em 1533). m. Juliana >> Giraldes, >> > dau, of Gerlado Anes , and sister of Gaspar Rodrigues teixeira (who had a >> > coat of arms for Teixeiras inm 135r). sons of Lourenço Rodrigues >> teixeiram >> > and g. sons of "The Gordo." >> >> Says who? :S The same PA. Ditto. :S >> > 3. João Rodrigues Escórcio m. Maria Pacheco " (Here is the Hare!), dau. >> of >> > Àlvaro da Fonseca and Isabel Pacheco - This later was the dau of Pedro de >> > Escobar and Margarida Pacheco (title Escobar). >> >> João Rodrigues Escórcio, Fidalgo da Casa Real. Buys land from >> Francisco *Pacheco* Tavares in Madalena (Stº António). Married with >> Maria Pacheco da Fonseca, heiress of the 3ª of her mother, Isabel >> Pacheca, consisting in more land in Madalena, probably part of a >> former large estate that was divided among those Pachecos. The land >> was in Madalena, Stº António. >> > > This adds weight to the RG connection both with João Rodrigues Escórcio (PA > has him as FCR also) and the Pachecos. They are probably family by affinity, through the Pachecos. If we solve the Pacheco conundrum, a great way would be done towards solving the whole mystery. >> I have a lot of info on those Pachecos, which I'm still trying to >> consolidate. >> >> Anyway, that Isabel Pacheca couldn't been daughter of Pedro de Escobar >> and Isabel Pacheca, since their daughter Isabel was already married to >> Gaspar Gonçalves Ferreira. Unless you can show that the 2 Isabel >> Pachecas are the same, that connection is incorrect. >> > > Once widow? I'm afraid something more palpable would have to be provided, in order to make that connection... >> > Note - margarida pacheco was the g. dau, of Gomes Pacheco, Fidalgo da >> Casa >> >> I find very hard that a women who died in 1545 already with married >> children of her own (and grown up grand-sons!!) could be the >> grand-daughter of a guy who was serving as Homem Bom in the Camara at >> 1520. >> > > Not impossible. There was no idade de reforma. A Homem Bom could be 80, 90 > y.o. and still serving. And that gives you room for the proposed > chronologoly - Margarida Pacheca had a grand-daughter which died at an age she was already using a family name in 1545, the same year Margarida died. Lets see: Maria Ferreira, died 1545, leaving a will. Let's say she was 15. So: Maria Ferreira, born 1530. Isabel Pacheco, born 1510. Margarida Pacheco, born 1490. Father of Margarida Pacheco, born 1470. Gomes Pacheco, born 1450, still at work as homem bom in 1520, with 70 years. It's very narrow, and improbable, but possible. However, it is wrong. I've just red on my notes, taken, so it seems, from FBM, that Maria Ferreira, daughter of Isabel Pacheca, was endowed with 200$00 by her aunt Beatriz Pires de Escobar, married to Gomes Pacheco. This pretty much excludes Gomes Pacheco from Margarida's ancestry. He was either her brother or her uncle. Considering that he was already at work as Homem Bom in 1488 (Vereações) I believe he was more probably Margarida's uncle. This would make Beatriz Pires de Escobar Maria Ferreira's great-great-aunt. >> > Real. IMO the Rodrigues de Gouveia used the Pacheco name just because of >> > this Gomes Pacheco, a very illustrious figure. >> >> > So my conjecture is that the Pacheco that the Rodrigues de Gouveia used >> for >> > two generations is this one, comes from that Gomes Pacheco. and no other. >> >> First you should be able to prove all those connections that appear >> falling out from the sky in teh Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy. Since >> most of the parish records of Santo António do not exist, and much of >> what exist are copies, we are left with almost nothing from that >> source that we could have for granted. > No. We are doing genealogy engineering, building a conjectural line starting > almost from very small evidence. The Ferreira name, the Pacheco name. I started doing that, and ended up wandering in circles. Not any more. ;) >> We should always depart from what we do know to get what we don't >> know, and not the opposite. :S > > Two schools of opinion. What if you start building a house by the roof? > Today technology affords it. It's simply not logical. You can spend a life building a theory based on mere hypothesis, which could totally fall down as a castle of cards when some new evidence arrives. I also started building lines based on conjectures, but the experience taught me, the hard way, that you can't simplify what is complex by nature. Someone once wrote that 500 years from now, genealogists would be trying to find a descent for their Monroe from our dear, beloved Marilyn. This is what genealogists have been doing over and over: All the Ferreiras came from the Casta Grande, all the Araújos from Gonçalo Anes, all Dórias from Ludovici, and so on. Wasting tremendous amounts of time and energy trying to make all those connections, instead of rummaging the documentation searching for palpable evidence. Take the Ferreiras, which are a very "pataniscosa" family (in the words of a friend of mine, half Alentejano, by the way). I've seldom seen such a genealogical mess as those Ferreiras and Drummonds - and, let's not forget, the Drummond tale originates precisely with a Ferreira. They where nothing, but they were all. They were so good and noble that they were called the Casta Grande by Noronha, but in their time they were fighting for a place even among the Homens Bons, as we can see from the Vereações. Many lies have been written for many centuries, and a lie repeated often enough tends to became a truth, as we all know. People can have that truth, or could have *the* truth. I chose the last one. :) >> > In a next mail we'll have a look at the Escobares. >> > >> > Not jews, but from old Spanish families of first magnitude. >> >> Jews, jews, jews, totally jews! eheheheh So much jews that Pedro de >> Escobar o velho even instructed that the masses from his vinculo >> should be said at a Saturday. I'm sorry Miguel, but I'm quite >> convinced that this Pacheco/ Escobar family is indeed a XXN one. >> > > > OK. may be. > >> >> Hmm... Mysterious people with Spanish names arriving in Madeira just >> after or around the 1492 editals... Hummm... ;) >> > > > hehehhe. > > > A lot of mysterious people arrived to Madeira around the fifteen century; > -)) The Alemães, the furious and melancolhic Napolitan, Christopher Columbus > himself, probably Askenazis disguised as Spanish grandees. ..., No, not the Askenazi... Those were in Ukraine and Russia back then. All our Jews were Sephardic, considered by many the "true jews", as there is a documented pathway for them from the Holy Land to the exile. Speaking of Jews, they say João Afonso's wife was XXNN. Most probably bad mouth, but wouldn't that be ironical? ;) Paulo