No, no no! No primary source that I know about calls Rodrigo Anes as "Rodrigo Anes de Gouveia". The Gouveia could be from him or his wife, from what is known. Also "dona viúva" is not the same treatment as "Dona". It is a respectful treatment with the widow, but she's not instantly turned into a true Dona by that. True Donas appear as "Dona Fulana, dona viúva". And, please, forget about that "Gonçalves de Leão". I don't know who appended that to the record, and with what intention, and we probably risk a gambozino hunting if we start running after such things. Paulo Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 7 Jan 2010 02:04:24 +0000: > the parents of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia are Rodrigo Anes de Gouiveia (the > oldest of this family) and Isabel Pires. Isabel Pires in her testament is > called "dona viúva". A treatment for someone who carried the title of > "Dona." > > > Bor Brites or Beatriz Chamorra that's the big question that my post is > posing. SIf you read it carefully you'll see that she is called Beatriz > Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. > > The Gonçalves de Leam may point to something but I still don't had time to > investigate properly > > > Cheers, > > Miguel. > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 1:46 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Miguel.... >> >> also do u have the parents of beatriz and her husband, Francisco R de >> Gouveia?? >> >> Leandro >> >> >> In a message dated 1/7/2010 1:46:43 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >> [email protected] writes: >> >> I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much >> importance >> at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co >> Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or >> not? >> Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it >> seems that it was not. Let's see why. >> >> Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui >> Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). >> >> She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The >> Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui >> Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already dead) >> and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de >> Chamorra !!* >> >> The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added with >> the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no >> doubt >> about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i bet >> strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that time. >> And >> containing explosive and brand new information. >> >> The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do >> assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They established >> themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected by >> marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. >> A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a relative? >> >> In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de >> Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say he >> is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several >> leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) >> >> Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. >> Beatriz >> Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º >> >> But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz Chamorra? >> It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central >> detail >> which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and the >> Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly >> existed. >> This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it before. >> And >> that, just amazes me. >> >> >> The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam >> Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is >> fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. >> >> I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. >> >> Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. >> >> >> I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the >> leading >> genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I won't >> quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the >> Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent in >> the >> old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to refer >> this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as >> stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that >> having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to do >> it. >> Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I have >> to >> concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their >> attention, >> or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. >> >> >> Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from >> the >> Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> Miguel >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject >> and the body of the message >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >