Paulo Congratulations on your find. Did you find out if the name Gago was a nickname, i.e. speech impediment? Any relation to Gago Coutinho? This may mean that the name has another origin. I too walked though that street many times in my youth. Let's see. I do have some connection to the Aldramas. Any other well-known families that João descendants may connect with? How come we know so much about this fisherman? I am sorry with your disappointment with Henrique Alemão. It is such a wonderful myth! The good thing is that you not yet demystified the myth, or have I missed that? Finally welcome back. Were your ears burning? We have often talked about you. It was more, we miss you. Cheers, José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 12:25 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos Speaking of "prizes"... In the last month I had 2 great discoveries, which gave me the two best genealogical "prizes" of recent times. You see, I always wanted to descend from João Gago the fisherman. You could give me all the poets, kings and noblemen, but each time I cruised that street in Funchal it annoyed me that I had not a decent descent from him (in my lines or otherwise), especially when he left so many direct descendants. João Gago the fisherman has his place in the Pantheon of our first settlers. He was THE fisherman by excellence, father of a progeny of fishermen and seamen, the sea people who lived and worked in that so much beloved, omnipresent, nostalgic sea that is part of the soul of every Maderian. So well known he was, that the street where he lived was known - and named - after him. It was João Gago's street in the 15th century, and it still is today, right there, next to the cathedral, already there when there was still not a cathedral, and Funchal was the most promising village of his time. Anyway, I wanted to be João Gago descendant, and so I am - as I found out after some merges I was doing last month. And if you happen to descend from Pedro Fernandes de Chaves and Jerónima Caldeira (the Aldramas), you too have your passport to João Gago the fisherman, and his his wife Eva Gomes. :) The other breakthrough was in my great-grandmother Clara Pereira, from Monte, whose Pereiras were an early dead-end until very recently. Then I decided to rummage over the Monte christenings in the quest for the holy Pereiras, and TCHARAM - out of the last of those apparently boring Pereiras (in fact his wife, Isidoria Maria) came a pristine line of the best Madeira nobility. Ok, ok, not so pristine, as there is a bastardy, but it was quite unexpected, nevertheless. Isidoria Maria, 6th great-grandmother, wife of José Pereira, living in Monte - Quinta dos Reis, then Levada da Corujeira - Marmeleiros - where my great-grandmother family still lives). Isidoria was in fact daughter of Manuel de Nóbrega Duarte , from Gaula (son of Manuel de Nóbrega Duarte, ancestor of the Martins de Nóbrega, anyone with family in Santo da Serra would be familiar with them) and D. Isabel de Menezes, from Porto da Cruz, daughter of João de Abreu e Freitas and D.Mariana de Menezes, this one illegitimate (so said the genealogies, the marriage records are silent about her mother, while remarking who the father is) daughter of Capitão Jorge Moniz de Menezes, son of Diogo Pereira de Menezes (tº Homens de Sousa) and D.Catarina Leme de Aguiar (tº Morais). With some bias, I could wonder if the legendary prettiness and class of my Pereira great-great-aunts from Monte derived from that new found Olympus. However, after seeing some paintings of the most prominent Madeira nobility, I'm rather prone to believe that the prettiness came from somewhere else. As for the class, they certainly got it at the time they lived in Boston (my dear American aunts! :)). Anyway, we were speaking about Henri the German, my former ancestor: Not anymore. Sometime ago I got tired of hearing the cries of FAKE! FAKE! FAKE! coming from my brain each time I looked at the ancestors of Manuel Afonso Sentido and Guiomar Gomes, supported on some França Dória genealogy mentioned in Ilhas de Zargo. And so I finally unconnected them, putting an end to those tremendously faked ancestries to the Henriques Alemão and Henriques de Noronha, which were bringing more shame than glory. As a reward, I got the answer for one of the most interesting riddles about another setting of Henriques - the Henriques Abreu, also from Camara de Lobos. This time a genuine, credible connection, which brought on the Henriques das Alcaçovas, but that's another story... :) Cheers, Paulo

Hi José, About Henrique Alemão: In fact, at this point, I'm more inclined to believe that he could really be the missed King of Poland. There is a number of contemporary evidence that supports this guess, most of all a letter of some Polish Knight to the pope saying that the King is hiding in the Portuguese islands. A number of other Polish or German men seem to have accompanied him, as we can see from the Carta de Sesmarias da Madalena. One of them is André Alemão, latter known as André de França, ancestor of the Madeira França family. About the Gago, in the case of João Gago it is undoubtedly a surname, not a nickname. The Gagos were fishermen and seamen, as it seems from Algarve. They are possibly (even probably) related to the Azorean Gagos, who gave birth to one of the most noble families in those islands (Gagos da Câmara). However, in Madeira, the surname ceased to be used still in the 16th century. Answering your question, if you have family of seamen or fishermen from Funchal, it is very probable that you descend from João Gago. The fishermen/seamen class was quite closed, and they mostly married among their ilk. That's how many Azorean families entered in Madeira, by marriage with some Maderian seaman who regularly visited those Islands. Cheers, Paulo "Fernandes, Jose" <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:46:44 -0500: > Paulo > Congratulations on your find. Did you find out if the name Gago was > a nickname, i.e. speech impediment? Any relation to Gago Coutinho? > This may mean that the name has another origin. > > I too walked though that street many times in my youth. Let's see. I > do have some connection to the Aldramas. Any other well-known > families that João descendants may connect with? > How come we know so much about this fisherman? > > I am sorry with your disappointment with Henrique Alemão. It is such > a wonderful myth! The good thing is that you not yet demystified > the myth, or have I missed that? > > Finally welcome back. Were your ears burning? We have often talked > about you. It was more, we miss you. > > Cheers, > José Fernandes > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos > Perneta > Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 12:25 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos > > Speaking of "prizes"... > > In the last month I had 2 great discoveries, which gave me the two > best genealogical "prizes" of recent times. > > You see, I always wanted to descend from João Gago the fisherman. You > could give me all the poets, kings and noblemen, but each time I > cruised that street in Funchal it annoyed me that I had not a decent > descent from him (in my lines or otherwise), especially when he left > so many direct descendants. > > João Gago the fisherman has his place in the Pantheon of our first > settlers. He was THE fisherman by excellence, father of a progeny of > fishermen and seamen, the sea people who lived and worked in that so > much beloved, omnipresent, nostalgic sea that is part of the soul of > every Maderian. So well known he was, that the street where he lived > was known - and named - after him. It was João Gago's street in the > 15th century, and it still is today, right there, next to the > cathedral, already there when there was still not a cathedral, and > Funchal was the most promising village of his time. > > Anyway, I wanted to be João Gago descendant, and so I am - as I found > out after some merges I was doing last month. And if you happen to > descend from Pedro Fernandes de Chaves and Jerónima Caldeira (the > Aldramas), you too have your passport to João Gago the fisherman, and > his his wife Eva Gomes. :) > > The other breakthrough was in my great-grandmother Clara Pereira, from > Monte, whose Pereiras were an early dead-end until very recently. Then > I decided to rummage over the Monte christenings in the quest for the > holy Pereiras, and TCHARAM - out of the last of those apparently > boring Pereiras (in fact his wife, Isidoria Maria) came a pristine > line of the best Madeira nobility. Ok, ok, not so pristine, as there > is a bastardy, but it was quite unexpected, nevertheless. > > Isidoria Maria, 6th great-grandmother, wife of José Pereira, living in > Monte - Quinta dos Reis, then Levada da Corujeira - Marmeleiros - > where my great-grandmother family still lives). Isidoria was in fact > daughter of Manuel de Nóbrega Duarte , from Gaula (son of Manuel de > Nóbrega Duarte, ancestor of the Martins de Nóbrega, anyone with family > in Santo da Serra would be familiar with them) and D. Isabel de > Menezes, from Porto da Cruz, daughter of João de Abreu e Freitas and > D.Mariana de Menezes, this one illegitimate (so said the genealogies, > the marriage records are silent about her mother, while remarking who > the father is) daughter of Capitão Jorge Moniz de Menezes, son of > Diogo Pereira de Menezes (tº Homens de Sousa) and D.Catarina Leme de > Aguiar (tº Morais). > > With some bias, I could wonder if the legendary prettiness and class > of my Pereira great-great-aunts from Monte derived from that new found > Olympus. However, after seeing some paintings of the most prominent > Madeira nobility, I'm rather prone to believe that the prettiness came > from somewhere else. As for the class, they certainly got it at the > time they lived in Boston (my dear American aunts! :)). > > Anyway, we were speaking about Henri the German, my former ancestor: > Not anymore. Sometime ago I got tired of hearing the cries of FAKE! > FAKE! FAKE! coming from my brain each time I looked at the ancestors > of Manuel Afonso Sentido and Guiomar Gomes, supported on some França > Dória genealogy mentioned in Ilhas de Zargo. And so I finally > unconnected them, putting an end to those tremendously faked > ancestries to the Henriques Alemão and Henriques de Noronha, which > were bringing more shame than glory. > > As a reward, I got the answer for one of the most interesting riddles > about another setting of Henriques - the Henriques Abreu, also from > Camara de Lobos. This time a genuine, credible connection, which > brought on the Henriques das Alcaçovas, but that's another story... :) > > Cheers, > > Paulo > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

"Fernandes, Jose" <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:46:44 -0500: [..] > Finally welcome back. Were your ears burning? We have often talked > about you. It was more, we miss you. Thanks! I have been working intensively in the last months in genealogy, also in preparation for an article to be published in Islenha about a missing part of our history... It's hard to do both things at the same time, research and debate, and also go on with the regular life, eheh... Anyway, I'll try to catch up a little with the list now that I'm back in Lisbon. :) Paulo

Paulo Please let us know about that issue of Islenha. I would want a copy. Any comments on the new building for the Centre? José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 1:21 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos "Fernandes, Jose" <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:46:44 -0500: [..] > Finally welcome back. Were your ears burning? We have often talked > about you. It was more, we miss you. Thanks! I have been working intensively in the last months in genealogy, also in preparation for an article to be published in Islenha about a missing part of our history... It's hard to do both things at the same time, research and debate, and also go on with the regular life, eheh... Anyway, I'll try to catch up a little with the list now that I'm back in Lisbon. :) Paulo ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

What Center? The Atlantic Studies one? About the article, I'm trying to make it more interesting by connecting it to the present day families, without much luck yet. Nevertheless, it would cast a new light over the Ponta do Sol families, as well as possibly explain the origins of the Santo António parish in Funchal. As a side effect, it would rise many questions about the Dórias commonly believed origin, and with even more luck will dismount the "Casta Grande" myth, as well as present the first good study on that Ferreira family. A new Captain Donatário of Funchal will also appear. Still working on it. :S Paulo "Fernandes, Jose" <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 4 Feb 2010 13:38:04 -0500: > Paulo > Please let us know about that issue of Islenha. I would want a copy. > Any comments on the new building for the Centre? > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos > Perneta > Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 1:21 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos > > "Fernandes, Jose" <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 4 Feb > 2010 12:46:44 -0500: > > [..] >> Finally welcome back. Were your ears burning? We have often talked >> about you. It was more, we miss you. > > Thanks! I have been working intensively in the last months in > genealogy, also in preparation for an article to be published in > Islenha about a missing part of our history... It's hard to do both > things at the same time, research and debate, and also go on with the > regular life, eheh... Anyway, I'll try to catch up a little with the > list now that I'm back in Lisbon. :) > > Paulo > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Paulo Yes, the Dr. Vieira's Centre. Well, I can't wait for the article. Ponta do Sol and definitely Santo António. Velozas, bettencourts, Chamoorros, Gouveias are from there, and I full of them all! A new Captain that would be news! You mean not a Camara? José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 2:04 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos What Center? The Atlantic Studies one? About the article, I'm trying to make it more interesting by connecting it to the present day families, without much luck yet. Nevertheless, it would cast a new light over the Ponta do Sol families, as well as possibly explain the origins of the Santo António parish in Funchal. As a side effect, it would rise many questions about the Dórias commonly believed origin, and with even more luck will dismount the "Casta Grande" myth, as well as present the first good study on that Ferreira family. A new Captain Donatário of Funchal will also appear. Still working on it. :S Paulo "Fernandes, Jose" <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 4 Feb 2010 13:38:04 -0500: > Paulo > Please let us know about that issue of Islenha. I would want a copy. > Any comments on the new building for the Centre? > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos > Perneta > Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 1:21 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos > > "Fernandes, Jose" <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 4 Feb > 2010 12:46:44 -0500: > > [..] >> Finally welcome back. Were your ears burning? We have often talked >> about you. It was more, we miss you. > > Thanks! I have been working intensively in the last months in > genealogy, also in preparation for an article to be published in > Islenha about a missing part of our history... It's hard to do both > things at the same time, research and debate, and also go on with the > regular life, eheh... Anyway, I'll try to catch up a little with the > list now that I'm back in Lisbon. :) > > Paulo > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message