Half my family is from Santo António (and another quarter is from São Roque, which is almost the same), thus I get a gazillion lines to the Rodrigues de Gouveia, both the true and the not so true, as well as the faked ones (the so called Rodrigues de Oliveira, I seem to recall). I shall now publicly confess my sin: I used to find most of those Santo António families boring to tears, an endless stream of Manuel Fernandes married to Maria Rodrigues, with all their even more boring variations. So I departed to more funny fields. There is a saying in Portugal - "o melhor tombo das famílias Portuguesas está no Norte". Well, the same is true for Madeira. The families of the Capitania de Machico - not to mention Porto Santo - are certainly more funny to dealt with. You see that little cottage in Maroços, overlooking Machico? Once upon a time someone called Francisco José de Olim Perestrelo e Vasconcelos, married to Joana Alexandrina Berenguer de Mendonça Calheiros. Poor farmers, of course, the poorest of all. Now you see this nice old manor in Santo António. Who lived there? António Rodrigues married to Maria Fernandes. Rich farmers, leaving capelas and so. Sometimes it seems that the pompousness of the surnames is directly proportional to the poverty of the family. So a son of this Perestrelo e Vasconcelos guy comes to Santo António. He marries and becomes well in life: Take 1 or 2 generations, is descendants would all be turned into Rodrigues, Fernandes or whatever. Adding to the boredom, there is an even bigger problem: The books of Santo António have been treated for generations as garbage. Many have disappeared, as it seems that the house where they were kept (already at a miserable state) collapsed, destroying whatever remained of them. Almost all the "fabrica" books have vanished, and the parish books only have some degree of reliability after 1700 (and even so, they are copies!). Only recently my interest in those lines have been wakened again, after devising the bigger picture behind those apparently uninteresting Santo António families: They worked like clans, in the best Scottish stile. So they were the Bijaos, the Andrés, the Cavalinhos, the Camisas Novas, the Lumes, the Garanitos, the Biscoitos, whatever. As there were the Pernetas, my own clan. And the Marques dos Santos, a name forged by one of my ancestors to separate them from the other Marques. And the Fernandes da Silva, my paternal grandma clan. The omnipresent Pinto Correias. The powerful Costas, always in dispute with the Ribeiros, from the other side of the road that got through their extended lands. And, of course, the Rodrigues de Gouveia. This was Santo António in 20th century, as was in the 19th, the 18th... A land of clans, always competing between themselves, a competition that originated the most luxuriant parish church of the Island, if we discount the Cathedral. It could be said that such competition started already in the 15th century, when Garcia Homem de Sousa built the first castle of the island (a fortified tower) in Santo Amaro, to protect his own clan. And it continued until today, when the old lady living next to me (from the Fernandes da Silva clan) is always a bit wary about that other old lady living downside the hill (from the Costa clan). The clans are the Santo António "nobility", that's what really counts for those folks, as the barons and lairds in old Scotland. Who cares if the wife is Perestrelo de Vasconcelos Lomelino Bettencourt e Menezes bla bla bla bla, now that she married a Gomes da Silva, she's one of them. Now, once one understands how things works, in clan terms, the Santo António families start to be more interesting, they start gaining their true colours, and the complexity of it's social tissue starts coming to the surface. I should have suspected this when I received from my grand-father (from the Marques dos Santos clan) the genealogical notes my great-grand mother (from the Gomes Biscoito / Pinto Correia clan) gave to him, which were my starting point years ago. It was already there, on that scheme, this clan thing. It was all apparent there, as was from the elders endless conversations "-Do you remember old cousin Julieta? She was a Pinto Correia, wasn't she? -Yes, but the husband was a Costa. And her sister married a man from Quinta das Freiras, do you remember him? Was also our cousin, from the Andrés". As Pat Corbera perfectly describes in her website, the families were more than often recognized by their nicknames rather than by their surnames. Unfortunately, unlike other parts of the Island, the parish books of Santo António often miss that bit, turning what was a palette of flamboyant colours into a desert of Fernandes, Gomes, Gonçalves, Rodrigues, you name it. To the Santo António clans, history is pretty much irrelevant. It doesn't matter where you came from, but what you are now. Survival - and a decent, honest living, of course - is what counts. Thus every clan, almost without exception, has quite humble origins. Working men, farmers who worked hard to build their assets pretty much out of nothing, many of them, possibly the vast majority, descending from Minho immigrants. When this great wave of immigrants of the 16th century started settling the Santo António farms, they met the older settlers who already lived there: Discreet people somewhat secluded from the busy and vibrant city of Funchal, a society already in embryo. Converted Jews trying to avoid unwilling attention, former Mestres de Açucar starting a new career as farmers, now that the sugar business was falling fast. A primitive local elite already in formation, most notably the Bragas, and João Boto, the guy that looked after the good state of the forest in the hills above the parish. This primitive society quickly intermixed with the newcomers, and together they built their Shire: A secure place between the hills replete with bandits and fugitive slaves, and the vertiginous life of Funchal, the city where they only went when needed. A place where honest and traditional living was pleased most of all. Where people were quick to jump into a fatal fight to preserve their honour, so much that even today they are known as "faquistas" - Knife throwers. And so they started organizing themselves, naturally, around those clans. When the Morgadios were extinguished in the 1830's, and the land started being sold, it was only natural for the clans to take over and became 'de facto' the new land lords. New manors were built and some of the older ones were refitted to host this new society in the rise. And so, as the clans have nor history nor distant memory, what was since the mid 19th century is what has always been. Some of this new elite started intermarrying with the best Funchal and Madeira society, by that time mostly ruined, and their sons quickly enough indulged in the new social affairs and conversations, to discover, much to their horror, certainly, that half the family is a sea of farmers they couldn't distinguish one from the other. To overcome this, a vast number of genealogies about the Santo António families were produced, almost all of them in an attempt to nobilitate the social newcomers. Myths about old possessions and estates were put into circulation - "The Camachos had their manor in Santo António, one of the best in the parish" "The Chamorros, with their rural hall in Chamorra". A fever of nobilitation seems to have risen, and even the good, old, traditional Lumes were turned into "an erroneous spelling of the surname Leme" by the most imaginative wannabes. This takes us back to the subject of this thread, the Rodrigues de Gouveia and all the forgeries surrounding their genealogy. Another case in point are the Vaz Rebelos, where the early generations of that genealogy are, if not the product of the imagination of the writer, at least a set of people with similar surnames amassed together without the glue of documentation, leading, blind to all logic and evidence, to the fabulous conclusion that they all emanate from the most noble Rebelo that has ever set foot in this Island. Finishing this already very long post, I just want to pass this reflection: When working the Santo António lines (as well as São Roque and São Martinho, the border parishes) they should be treated as clans, with its own, intrinsic value, without departing in a chase for unicorns to decorate the clan origin. Most of the time you'll find nothing or very little, because they built themselves in the land, generation after generation. This is the error where many of the published genealogies has fallen into. Santo António is a land of true farmer families and clans, not of decayed nobility trying to survive ploughing the land. Cheers, Paulo "Fernandes, Jose" <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 4 Feb 2010 15:49:28 -0500: > Paulo, > This guy (?) is my great (12) grandfather. When you have time please > refer to a posting from Miguel in the last 2 months. He was excited > about an Italian connection to this family and dismissed any > forgery allegations. Your comments will obviously most welcome. > Don't you also share this line? > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos > Perneta > Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 3:25 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Rodrigues de Gouveia forgery question > > Hello Denise, > > I seem to recall to have transcribed her death record to the list some > time ago, but here it is, nevertheless: > > //Em vinte e três dias do mês de Outubro de 1560 anos faleceu nesta > cidade na Rua do Doutor Jerónimo Gomes defronte de casa dele? Isabel > Pires dona viúva fez testamento e mandou se enterrar nesta Sé e deixa > por testamenteiro seu fº João Gouveia e o mais me reporto ao dito > testamento / deixou codecilho que ela em vida de seu marido fizera e > ... testamento declaram seus legados e capela e eu João Gomes cura o > escrevi // > > You may ask a copy of the the original record to ARM, though I advise > you that it's not an easy reading. ;) > > You may name "Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia" as you wish. That person > is only indirectly documented. I don't even know if his name is > Francisco or otherwise, only that he is a brother of João Gouveia and > father of Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > As for the Gouveia, it should only be assigned when documented, and it > is very well documented for some of the members of the family, though > I don't know if it comes from Rodrigo or Isabel. It seems to be, > nevertheless, and despite all forgeries, one of the best origins of > the Island's Gouveias, in terms of social status. > > Cheers, > > Paulo > > [email protected] wrote in Fri, 9 Jan 2009 10:58:17 EST: > >> Hello again, >> >> I have been sifting through some old email one by one! >> >> A question about the Rodrigues de Gouveia forgery: Based on what >> is written >> below, Isabel Pires should be stripped of the Dona title (done), >> her husband >> I currently have as Rodrigo Anes de Gouveia should be just Rodrigo >> Anes...What about their son Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? Should >> he still be >> carrying that Gouveia name? What about Francisco's decendants; >> should they carry >> the name? I would be interested in seeing the death record for Isabel >> mentioned below as she is my 14th great-grandmother. If you could >> post it that >> would be wonderful. When did she die? >> >> >> Denise D'Antona >> >> Do you know anything about my ancestor Brites Chamorra married to >>>> Licencidado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? >>>> >>>> The mother of Lioc. Francisco Rodrigues de G. according to the genealogy >>>> of >>>> the Rodrigues de Gouveia was D.Isabel Pires. Anything new about her? >>>> >>> >>> That is one of the forged records (and a very rude forgery), which is >>> telling. >>> I can't say nothing more about them than this. And that she was probably >>> descendant from either Pedro Chamorro or his brother Afonso. >>> I have doubts about the Pais de Carvalho ancestry. >>> >>> Isabel Pires was not a "Dona", you may strip that title from her. >> >> >> In one codicilo (document) - that you posted - she is called "dona viúva". >> As far as I've seen not all women were always referred as "donas viúvas" in >> testamentos. Only few of them. That's what leads me to suspect that the >> genealogists took that "dona viúva" in testamentos and other documents to >> mean the status that she had when alive.. >> >> >>> >>> I'll send the her debt record in another post. >>> Francisco is most probably the Francisco, son of Rodrigo Anes and Isabel >>> Pires, who received "ordens menores" in Funchal in 1538, thus his >>> filiation >>> is probably correct. >>> >> >> **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy >> steps! >> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215047751x1200957972/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De >> cemailfooterNO62) >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >