Thanks, Miguel, for your information on the Drummonds. My third great grandmother was a Drummond. There are several red heads in my family from Porto Santo and I've wondered if that red hair came down from the Drummond line. Louise Pitta Polsky On May 7, 2012, at 9:41 AM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: > Darlene, > > José was on spot, Just like a professional genealogist, but then this > later would have asked for a huge fee for that piece of accurate info > delivered with godspeed. > > Anywaym what puzzles me is the dropping out the prestigious surname > Drummond in exchange for Gaspar. (it has no history, no charisma). They > also had Pestana, Vasconcelos and Câmara to choose from. The last ones also > representing the oldest families in Madeira. > > A number of people would cut a finger to have Drummond in their name - as > it connects to Scottish (Stewarts) and English royalty. The Drummond name > was cherished in Madeira and in Porto Santo. So, that's quite puzzling why > they dropped one of the crown jewels ... > > Anyway, under the Portuguese law you're entitled to use any surname that > yur ancestors, both in the maternal and paternal line have used. It's not > at all uncommon that a surname, after being absent 3 or more generations, > re-surfaces. In Portugal, in general, if on the mother side the surnames > were more prestigious people would use them. > > Of course, in Portugal we have a quite different approach to names and > surnames...We're a 8 centuries old country - so the hunting area is > pharaminous. > > Cheers, cousin! I (and several others on this list) descend many times from > the first Drummond - the famous João Drummond, gallant scottish knight, > who fought besides the legendary Joan of Arc, in France, ( he was part of > the Légion Écossaise. Quite recently William Sinclair, a distinguished > historian and genealogist from Scotland, has confirmed this) and came to > Madeira, in the early period of settlement. > > Miguel de Castro Henriques > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Jacqui Marcella <JMarcela@calwisp.com>wrote: > >> Have you checked Familysearch.org? They have a good collection of Hawaii >> births, marriages and deaths. There is a wealth of free information and >> I found a lot on my husband's family there. >> >> On 5/6/2012 9:09 PM, Dar Creuzer wrote: >>> I am having trouble finding any information on my great grandfather >> Manuel >>> Antonio Fernandez /Fernandes) he was born in Portugal, I don't know >> where , >>> in 1845. He ended up in Hawaii and married Maria Amelia Drummond Gaspar >> on >>> the big island of Hawaii before 1885 when their first child was born. >> They >>> had the following children. Olympia, Gertrude, William, Manuel, Mary, >> John, >>> Isabella. Manuel and Maria lived in Honolulu Hawaii where most of their >>> children were born. at least two children were born in Kau Hawaii- >> Gertrude >>> and Manuel. I don't know when he died but think it was before 1910, as he >>> was in 1900 census but not in 1910 census with his wife. Maria died in >>> Honolulu Oct. 29, 1946 buried in Kaimuki, Honolulu, Hawaii. Marie was >> born >>> 9-1-1863 Porto Santo, Maderia Portugal. >>> I am really wanting to know when he died in Hawaii and who his parents >>> were. I have looked in ARM and find a few Manuel Fernandes but can't find >>> anything else. Does anyone have any information on this Manuel or his >>> family? >>> I live in Wisconsin and can't go to Hawaii to research this family. >>> thank you very much, Darlene Alling Creuzer >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you everyone for your thoughts on this family. I feel if I could find his Obituary that might give a bit more information. Even his death record- except I don't know the year of his death I have seen the passenger list in 1883 when the family arrived in Hawaii but I don't have that paperwork any longer because we had a house fire 4 years ago and I lost all my research- so am starting over again. I have checked Family search also many time but maybe I have missed something. I will check again. I don't know nor have I heard why the Drumond family dropped that name and used the Gaspar name. I just don't know. It took many years to find what I have found and only by using my grandmother's name Olympia Fernandez, did I find them at all. I don't know nor have I seen Maria Amelia use her middle name on anything. All of Manuel and Maria Fernandez children at one time lived in Honolulu. Olympia Fernandez lived there all her life.She married Harlie Stonebraker Isabella married Henry Bellman Gertrude married a Gomes, Mary married Charles Young and moved to the big island and lived there the rest of her life. John Fernandez moved to California and married a Nancy.I have met Uncle johnny as my mother called him Manuel Fernandez might not have been married. William Fernandez might not have been married.I have met Uncle Willie also many years ago. I have tried Island Routes before but I will contact someone there and try again. My question is about Manuel Antonio Fernandez not the Gaspar family. Even though I am interested in finding out anything new about that family.All of their family arrived together in Hawaii (the big Island) except for Pedro who died at sea in route to Hawaii. Maria Amelia Gaspar sisters and brother married the following people in Hawaii. Ephigenia married Manuel Carreira Teves Cecilia married Frank Gomes Juntiniano married Mary bella Jardine Here is the family in the 1900 Honolulu Census- not all the family is listed here. Manuel and Maria/Mary Fernandez are not here. Name:Manuel Gaspar Age:55Birth Date:1845Birthplace:PortugalHome in 1900: Honolulu, Oahu, Hawaii Territory [Honolulu] Race:Caucasian (White) [White] Gender:MaleImmigration Year:1883Relation to Head of House:HeadMarital Status:MarriedSpouse's Name: Mary GasparMarriage Year:1872Years Married:28Father's Birthplace:PortugalMother's Birthplace:Portugal Occupation:View on Image<http://search.ancestry.com/iexec?htx=View&r=an&dbid=7602&iid=004118897_00442&fn=Manuel&ln=Gaspar&st=r&ssrc=&pid=74661246> Neighbors:View others on page<http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1900usfedcen&sin=C0000006&siv=004118897_00442> Household Members:Name AgeManuel Gaspar<http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1900usfedcen&indiv=try&h=74661246> 55Mary Gaspar<http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1900usfedcen&indiv=try&h=74661247> 50Julian Gaspar<http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1900usfedcen&indiv=try&h=74661248> 25Bella Gaspar<http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1900usfedcen&indiv=try&h=74661249> 15Isabella Gaspar<http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1900usfedcen&indiv=try&h=74661250> 22Louis Gaspar<http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1900usfedcen&indiv=try&h=74661251> 3/12Olimpia Fernandez<http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1900usfedcen&indiv=try&h=74661252> 4Mary Fernandez<http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1900usfedcen&indiv=try&h=74661253> 7 View Original Record <http://search.ancestry.com/iexec?htx=View&r=an&dbid=7602&iid=004118897_00442&fn=Manuel&ln=Gaspar&st=r&ssrc=&pid=74661246> View original image<http://search.ancestry.com/iexec?htx=View&r=an&dbid=7602&iid=004118897_00442&fn=Manuel&ln=Gaspar&st=r&ssrc=&pid=74661246> View blank form On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:57 AM, JOSE FERNANDES <jose.fernandes@rogers.com>wrote: > Darlene, > > I am not an expert on Hawaii, but there are others who have done a lot of > work on Madeirans in Hawaii on the list. while we wait for their > assistance, let's start: > > Was Manuel António Fernandes born in Portugal or Madeira or even in the > Azores? This is an essential question for further research. Fernandes in > Madeira are many, and if you include Portugal, well forget it! > > Now Porto Santo is a very small island. today it has no more than > 4,500 inhabitants. The chances of missing something is very small. > > My search on the name you gave us provides the following: > There is no name Drumond Gaspar but there is a Gaspar Drumond in Porto > Santo. Only one. His name is Manuel Gaspar Drumond who marries a Dona Maria > Pestana de Vasconcelos in 1862. Dona in this case, a sign of nobility, > means that she at least thought she came from important families. It is > like "lady". It was overdone in Porto Santo and also in Madeira. > > So is it Maria Amélia (Pestana)? Gaspar Drumond ? > > Now Manuel requested a passport in 1883. He is 42 at the time. He has > children: Maria Pestana 20, Efigénia 14, Cecilia 11, Justiniano 8, Pedro 4. > The passport file indicates that he is going to a foreign country ?. It is > possible that the Sandwich Islands/Hawaii was at this time a diplomatic > question. the file does not say if he is taking his family or when the > family joined him but there is no request for his wife at a later date. At > leas I haven't found it. > > Manuel's parents are Gaspar do ó Drumond and Joana de Vasconcelos. D. > Maria Pestana de Vasconcelos's parents are João Pestana de Vaconcelos and > D. Norberta Margarida da Camara (I suspect that here is the reason for the > Dona). > > Maria Amélia Pestana Drumond was born on September 9, 1863. > > Is this your ancestor? Let's see if any of this info leads to something. > In my opinion this is very close if not the one. > Well? > > > José Fernandes > > > ________________________________ > From: Dar Creuzer <dar.creuzer@gmail.com> > To: PRT-MADEIRA@rootsweb.com > Sent: Monday, May 7, 2012 12:09:26 AM > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Manuel Antonio Fernandes or Fernandez > > I am having trouble finding any information on my great grandfather Manuel > Antonio Fernandez /Fernandes) he was born in Portugal, I don't know where , > in 1845. He ended up in Hawaii and married Maria Amelia Drummond Gaspar on > the big island of Hawaii before 1885 when their first child was born. They > had the following children. Olympia, Gertrude, William, Manuel, Mary, John, > Isabella. Manuel and Maria lived in Honolulu Hawaii where most of their > children were born. at least two children were born in Kau Hawaii- Gertrude > and Manuel. I don't know when he died but think it was before 1910, as he > was in 1900 census but not in 1910 census with his wife. Maria died in > Honolulu Oct. 29, 1946 buried in Kaimuki, Honolulu, Hawaii. Marie was born > 9-1-1863 Porto Santo, Maderia Portugal. > I am really wanting to know when he died in Hawaii and who his parents > were. I have looked in ARM and find a few Manuel Fernandes but can't find > anything else. Does anyone have any information on this Manuel or his > family? > I live in Wisconsin and can't go to Hawaii to research this family. > thank you very much, Darlene Alling Creuzer > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Darlene, You have confirmed that the Gaspar Drumond family are the ones that I found in the Archives and it is your family. It is sad that Pedro died at sea. He was only 4. Do you have their marriage and baptism documents and passport file from the archives?  if you don't it might be interesting. This family contains all the key names for Porto Santo: Drumond and Vasconcelos and Pestana. That is up there. On Manuel A. Fernandes he was from Ponta do Sol .   José Fernandes ________________________________ From: Dar Creuzer <dar.creuzer@gmail.com> To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, May 7, 2012 10:35:21 PM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Manuel Antonio Fernandes or Fernandez Thank you everyone for your thoughts on this family. I feel if I could find his Obituary that might give a bit more information. Even his death record- except I don't know the year of his death I have seen the passenger list in 1883 when the family arrived in Hawaii but I don't have that paperwork any longer because we had a house fire 4 years ago and I lost all my research- so am starting over again. I have checked Family search also many time but maybe I have missed something. I will check again. I don't know nor have I heard why the Drumond family dropped that name and used the Gaspar name. I just don't know. It took many years to find what I have found and only by using my grandmother's name Olympia Fernandez, did I find them at all. I don't know nor have I seen Maria Amelia use her middle name on anything. All of Manuel and Maria Fernandez children at one time lived in Honolulu. Olympia Fernandez lived there all her life.She married Harlie Stonebraker Isabella married Henry Bellman Gertrude married a Gomes, Mary married Charles Young and moved to the big island and lived there the rest of her life. John Fernandez moved to California and married a Nancy.I have met Uncle johnny as my mother called him Manuel Fernandez might not have been  married. William Fernandez might not have been  married.I have met Uncle Willie also many years ago. I have tried Island Routes before but I will contact someone there and try again. My question is about Manuel Antonio Fernandez not the Gaspar family. Even though I am interested in finding out anything new about that family.All of their family arrived together in Hawaii (the big Island) except for Pedro who died at sea in route to Hawaii. Maria Amelia Gaspar sisters and brother married the following people in Hawaii. Ephigenia married Manuel Carreira Teves Cecilia married Frank Gomes Juntiniano married Mary bella Jardine Here is the family in the 1900 Honolulu Census- not all the family is listed here. Manuel and Maria/Mary Fernandez are not here. Name:Manuel Gaspar Age:55Birth Date:1845Birthplace:PortugalHome in 1900: Honolulu, Oahu, Hawaii Territory [Honolulu] Race:Caucasian (White) [White] Gender:MaleImmigration Year:1883Relation to Head of House:HeadMarital Status:MarriedSpouse's Name: Mary GasparMarriage Year:1872Years Married:28Father's Birthplace:PortugalMother's Birthplace:Portugal Occupation:View on Image<http://search.ancestry.com/iexec?htx=View&r=an&dbid=7602&iid=004118897_00442&fn=Manuel&ln=Gaspar&st=r&ssrc=&pid=74661246> Neighbors:View others on page<http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1900usfedcen&sin=C0000006&siv=004118897_00442> Household Members:Name AgeManuel Gaspar<http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1900usfedcen&indiv=try&h=74661246> 55Mary Gaspar<http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1900usfedcen&indiv=try&h=74661247> 50Julian Gaspar<http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1900usfedcen&indiv=try&h=74661248> 25Bella Gaspar<http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1900usfedcen&indiv=try&h=74661249> 15Isabella Gaspar<http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1900usfedcen&indiv=try&h=74661250> 22Louis Gaspar<http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1900usfedcen&indiv=try&h=74661251> 3/12Olimpia Fernandez<http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1900usfedcen&indiv=try&h=74661252> 4Mary Fernandez<http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1900usfedcen&indiv=try&h=74661253> 7 View Original Record <http://search.ancestry.com/iexec?htx=View&r=an&dbid=7602&iid=004118897_00442&fn=Manuel&ln=Gaspar&st=r&ssrc=&pid=74661246> View original image<http://search.ancestry.com/iexec?htx=View&r=an&dbid=7602&iid=004118897_00442&fn=Manuel&ln=Gaspar&st=r&ssrc=&pid=74661246> View blank form On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:57 AM, JOSE FERNANDES <jose.fernandes@rogers.com>wrote: > Darlene, > > I am not an expert on Hawaii, but there are others who have done a lot of > work on Madeirans in Hawaii on the list. while we wait for their > assistance, let's start: > > Was Manuel António Fernandes born in Portugal or Madeira or even in the > Azores? This is an essential question for further research. Fernandes in > Madeira are many, and if you include Portugal, well forget it! > > Now Porto Santo is a very small island. today it has no more than > 4,500 inhabitants. The chances of missing something is very small. > > My search  on the name you gave us provides the following: > There is no name Drumond Gaspar  but there is a Gaspar Drumond in Porto > Santo. Only one. His name is Manuel Gaspar Drumond who marries a Dona Maria > Pestana de Vasconcelos in 1862. Dona in this case, a sign of nobility, > means that she at least thought she came from important families. It is > like "lady". It was overdone in Porto Santo and also in Madeira. > > So is it Maria Amélia (Pestana)? Gaspar Drumond ? > > Now Manuel requested a passport in 1883. He is 42 at the time. He has > children: Maria Pestana 20, Efigénia 14, Cecilia 11, Justiniano 8, Pedro 4. > The passport file indicates that he is going to a foreign country ?. It is > possible that the Sandwich Islands/Hawaii was at this time a diplomatic > question. the file does not say if he is taking his family or when the > family joined him but there is no request for his wife at a later date. At > leas I haven't found it. > > Manuel's parents are Gaspar do ó Drumond and Joana de Vasconcelos. D. > Maria Pestana de Vasconcelos's parents are João Pestana de Vaconcelos and > D. Norberta Margarida da Camara (I suspect that here is the reason for the > Dona). > > Maria Amélia Pestana Drumond was born on September 9, 1863. > > Is this your ancestor? Let's see if any of this info leads to something. > In my opinion this is very close if not the one. > Well? > > > José Fernandes > > > ________________________________ >  From: Dar Creuzer <dar.creuzer@gmail.com> > To: PRT-MADEIRA@rootsweb.com > Sent: Monday, May 7, 2012 12:09:26 AM > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Manuel Antonio Fernandes or Fernandez > > I am having trouble finding any information on my great grandfather Manuel > Antonio Fernandez /Fernandes) he was born in Portugal, I don't know where , > in 1845. He ended up in Hawaii and married Maria Amelia Drummond Gaspar on > the big island of Hawaii before 1885 when their first child was born. They > had the following children. Olympia, Gertrude, William, Manuel, Mary, John, > Isabella. Manuel and Maria lived in Honolulu Hawaii where most of their > children were born. at least two children were born in Kau Hawaii- Gertrude > and Manuel. I don't know when he died but think it was before 1910, as he > was in 1900 census but not in 1910 census with his wife. Maria died in > Honolulu Oct. 29, 1946 buried in Kaimuki, Honolulu, Hawaii.  Marie was born > 9-1-1863 Porto Santo, Maderia Portugal. > I am really wanting to know when he died in Hawaii and who his parents > were. I have looked in ARM and find a few Manuel Fernandes but can't find > anything else. Does anyone have any information on this Manuel or his > family? > I live in Wisconsin and can't go to Hawaii to research this family. > thank you very much, Darlene Alling Creuzer > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

There is a death record in Hawaii that might fit: "Hawaii, Deaths and Burials, 1862-1919," Manuel Fernandez, 1843 Name: Manuel Fernandez Gender: Male Burial Date: Burial Place: Death Date: 16 Dec 1915 Death Place: Paia, Maui, Hawaii Age: 72 Birth Date: 1843 Birthplace: Occupation: Race: Marital Status: Spouse's Name: Father's Name: Manuel Fernandez Sr. Father's Birthplace: Mother's Name: Mother's Birthplace: Indexing Project (Batch) Number: B03154-9 System Origin: Hawaii-EASy Source Film Number: 1712146 Reference Number: 993 Source Citation "Hawaii, Deaths and Burials, 1862-1919," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FWZC-FV8 : accessed 8 May 2012), Manuel Fernandez, 1843.

Pamela this is a great lead. I suspect that you won't find a Manuel António Fernandes but a Manuel Fernandes as you mentioned before is  a good possibility. Even nowadays, I dropped the António for most José have a second name. Mine happens to be António after my maternal grandfather. There is a lot of new research on the Sandwich/Hawaii islands. Some of it in Madeira. There is a member of the list (where are you?) Thomas de Freitas, among others, who has done a lot of search in the Archives about his family in Hawaii. You consulted the census, do we have any of the children's name in there? José Fernandes ________________________________ From: Pamela <buckspazz@aol.com> To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, May 7, 2012 6:53:50 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Manuel Antonio Fernandes or Fernandez Hello Darlene, I don't know if you are aware of the Island Routes group [ islandroutes@googlegroups.com ].  They specialize in Portuguese/Madeiran/Azorean migration to Hawaii.  I joined that group and inquired about a few potential burials at a small Portuguese cemetery in Honolulu.  Someone (Dan) from the Portuguese Genealogical & Historical Society of Hawaii responded and ended up mailing me a large packet of information regarding several of my Madeiran Hawaiians.  You may want to contact them with your query regarding your great grandfather, Manuel Antonio Fernandes.  Perhaps they have a death or burial record. Kindest regards, Pamela  -----Original Message----- From: Dar Creuzer <dar.creuzer@gmail.com> To: JOSE FERNANDES <jose.fernandes@rogers.com>; prt-madeira <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Mon, May 7, 2012 8:27 am Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Manuel Antonio Fernandes or Fernandez Jose: Thank you for your response. First of all Manuel Antonio Fernandes - he only information I have found was on the 1900 census in Honolulu Hawaii ith wife and family, born in Portugal. Doesn't say anything more. I have ooked for a death record but didn't find one and looked on line for an bituary in the newspaper but also didn't find one.I have looked in assport records from Porto Santo and found several but not knowing any ther information about him don't know which or if any are him. In Hawaii hey lived at 1695 Beretania St. for many years. My mother remembers they iving on the house in the back of the property and her grandmother ary living in the front house at that address. The family you have below is the right family. they dropped the Drummond ame when they went to Hawaii. so they are listed in the 1900 census as anuel and Mary Gaspar( she went by Mary sometimes and Maria sometimes) my randmother Olympia Fernandez is listed with them. It also says that both anuel and Maria came to Hawaii in 1883. I don't know if they met on the oyage or met after getting to Hawaii. Thank you for any help.Darlene On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:57 AM, JOSE FERNANDES <jose.fernandes@rogers.com>wrote: > Darlene, I am not an expert on Hawaii, but there are others who have done a lot of work on Madeirans in Hawaii on the list. while we wait for their assistance, let's start: Was Manuel António Fernandes born in Portugal or Madeira or even in the Azores? This is an essential question for further research. Fernandes in Madeira are many, and if you include Portugal, well forget it! Now Porto Santo is a very small island. today it has no more than 4,500 inhabitants. The chances of missing something is very small. My search  on the name you gave us provides the following: There is no name Drumond Gaspar  but there is a Gaspar Drumond in Porto Santo. Only one. His name is Manuel Gaspar Drumond who marries a Dona Maria Pestana de Vasconcelos in 1862. Dona in this case, a sign of nobility, means that she at least thought she came from important families. It is like "lady". It was overdone in Porto Santo and also in Madeira. So is it Maria Amélia (Pestana)? Gaspar Drumond ? Now Manuel requested a passport in 1883. He is 42 at the time. He has children: Maria Pestana 20, Efigénia 14, Cecilia 11, Justiniano 8, Pedro 4. The passport file indicates that he is going to a foreign country ?. It is possible that the Sandwich Islands/Hawaii was at this time a diplomatic question. the file does not say if he is taking his family or when the family joined him but there is no request for his wife at a later date. At leas I haven't found it. Manuel's parents are Gaspar do ó Drumond and Joana de Vasconcelos. D. Maria Pestana de Vasconcelos's parents are João Pestana de Vaconcelos and D. Norberta Margarida da Camara (I suspect that here is the reason for the Dona). Maria Amélia Pestana Drumond was born on September 9, 1863. Is this your ancestor? Let's see if any of this info leads to something. In my opinion this is very close if not the one. Well? José Fernandes ________________________________   From: Dar Creuzer <dar.creuzer@gmail.com> To: PRT-MADEIRA@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, May 7, 2012 12:09:26 AM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Manuel Antonio Fernandes or Fernandez I am having trouble finding any information on my great grandfather Manuel Antonio Fernandez /Fernandes) he was born in Portugal, I don't know where , in 1845. He ended up in Hawaii and married Maria Amelia Drummond Gaspar on the big island of Hawaii before 1885 when their first child was born. They had the following children. Olympia, Gertrude, William, Manuel, Mary, John, Isabella. Manuel and Maria lived in Honolulu Hawaii where most of their children were born. at least two children were born in Kau Hawaii- Gertrude and Manuel. I don't know when he died but think it was before 1910, as he was in 1900 census but not in 1910 census with his wife. Maria died in Honolulu Oct. 29, 1946 buried in Kaimuki, Honolulu, Hawaii.  Marie was born 9-1-1863 Porto Santo, Maderia Portugal. I am really wanting to know when he died in Hawaii and who his parents were. I have looked in ARM and find a few Manuel Fernandes but can't find anything else. Does anyone have any information on this Manuel or his family? I live in Wisconsin and can't go to Hawaii to research this family. thank you very much, Darlene Alling Creuzer ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Miguel I really believe that I have the right Drumond. All Darlene has to do is find if the children , other than Maria got to Hawaii. I suspect the document fundamentalist was Paulo Perneta. Anyway it is always nice and comforting to have the documents to back it up. Although, when it comes to Madeira only God and the priests know how much was fudged. I have a case of a Baltazar Pires from Caniço marrying a Maria Mendes in Santana in 1622.  The document shows no parents for Baltazar but as a coincidence the "vigário" is Cristovão Pires! What to make of it? Aren't you taking this Madeiran thing too far? I mean there is only one Cristiano Ronaldo. Just because you are Madeiran...Hope you recover from your football(soccer) injury. How is the other fellow? No politics involved? Cheers.   José Fernandes ________________________________ From: Miguel de Castro Henriques <migueldecastrohenriques@gmail.com> To: JOSE FERNANDES <jose.fernandes@rogers.com>; prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, May 7, 2012 6:34:29 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Manuel Antonio Fernandes or Fernandez José, It can be fiction, and there is much fiction, good and bad, in genealogy. However I am not a documentation fundamentalist - I mean sometimes family tradition has got it right - without documents (sometimes quite wrong, it's true) . But it can't be dismissed. Now, some families have lost their traditions, their memories of their lineages. But some, not many I admit, have not. I had a football accident on one foot- two of us kicked each other on either foot,  so I've been jumping in  and out and your mail escaped me as well as others. Please, kindly send it again. Anyway I've been learning tons with you guys, in this forum  , -) Cheers, Miguel On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 7:16 PM, JOSE FERNANDES <jose.fernandes@rogers.com> wrote: Miguel, >I posted my reply without seeing your response to Darlene. I don't know if I am worth that much because I have learned from you and Paulo that unless you have the documentation...it could be fiction. However, I have a feeling about this one. If the other children are in Hawaii then we have got it! >Now I also sent you an e-mail earlier last week. Did you get? I had a couple,e of questions for you. Do you want me to re-post it? >  >José Fernandes > > >________________________________ > From: Miguel de Castro Henriques <migueldecastrohenriques@gmail.com> >To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com >Sent: Monday, May 7, 2012 12:41:18 PM > >Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Manuel Antonio Fernandes or Fernandez > > >Darlene, > >José was on spot, Just like a professional genealogist,  but then this >later would have asked for a huge fee for that piece of accurate info >delivered with godspeed. > >Anywaym what puzzles me is the dropping out the prestigious surname >Drummond in exchange for Gaspar. (it has no history, no charisma).  They >also had Pestana, Vasconcelos and Câmara to choose from. The last ones also >representing the oldest families in Madeira. > >A number of people would cut a finger to have Drummond in their name - as >it connects to Scottish (Stewarts) and English royalty. The Drummond name >was cherished in Madeira and in Porto Santo. So, that's quite puzzling why >they dropped one of the crown jewels ... > >Anyway, under the Portuguese law you're entitled to use any surname that >yur ancestors, both in the maternal and paternal line have used. It's not >at all uncommon that a surname, after being absent 3 or more generations, >re-surfaces. In Portugal, in general, if on the mother side the surnames >were more prestigious people would use them. > >Of course, in Portugal we have a quite different approach to names and >surnames...We're a 8 centuries old country - so the hunting area is >pharaminous. > >Cheers, cousin! I (and several others on this list) descend many times from >the first Drummond  - the famous João Drummond, gallant scottish knight, >who fought besides the legendary Joan of Arc, in France, ( he was part of >the Légion Écossaise. Quite recently William Sinclair, a distinguished >historian and genealogist from Scotland, has confirmed this) and came to >Madeira,  in the early period of settlement. > >Miguel de Castro Henriques > > > > > > > > > > > >On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Jacqui Marcella <JMarcela@calwisp.com>wrote: > >> Have you checked Familysearch.org? They have a good collection of Hawaii >> births, marriages and deaths. There is a wealth of free information and >> I found a lot on my husband's family there. >> >> On 5/6/2012 9:09 PM, Dar Creuzer wrote: >> > I am having trouble finding any information on my great grandfather >> Manuel >> > Antonio Fernandez /Fernandes) he was born in Portugal, I don't know >> where , >> > in 1845. He ended up in Hawaii and married Maria Amelia Drummond Gaspar >> on >> > the big island of Hawaii before 1885 when their first child was born. >> They >> > had the following children. Olympia, Gertrude, William, Manuel, Mary, >> John, >> > Isabella. Manuel and Maria lived in Honolulu Hawaii where most of their >> > children were born. at least two children were born in Kau Hawaii- >> Gertrude >> > and Manuel. I don't know when he died but think it was before 1910, as he >> > was in 1900 census but not in 1910 census with his wife. Maria died in >> > Honolulu Oct. 29, 1946 buried in Kaimuki, Honolulu, Hawaii.  Marie was >> born >> > 9-1-1863 Porto Santo, Maderia Portugal. >> > I am really wanting to know when he died in Hawaii and who his parents >> > were. I have looked in ARM and find a few Manuel Fernandes but can't find >> > anything else. Does anyone have any information on this Manuel or his >> > family? >> > I live in Wisconsin and can't go to Hawaii to research this family. >> > thank you very much, Darlene Alling Creuzer >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello Darlene, I don't know if you are aware of the Island Routes group [ islandroutes@googlegroups.com ]. They specialize in Portuguese/Madeiran/Azorean migration to Hawaii. I joined that group and inquired about a few potential burials at a small Portuguese cemetery in Honolulu. Someone (Dan) from the Portuguese Genealogical & Historical Society of Hawaii responded and ended up mailing me a large packet of information regarding several of my Madeiran Hawaiians. You may want to contact them with your query regarding your great grandfather, Manuel Antonio Fernandes. Perhaps they have a death or burial record. Kindest regards, Pamela -----Original Message----- From: Dar Creuzer <dar.creuzer@gmail.com> To: JOSE FERNANDES <jose.fernandes@rogers.com>; prt-madeira <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Mon, May 7, 2012 8:27 am Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Manuel Antonio Fernandes or Fernandez Jose: Thank you for your response. First of all Manuel Antonio Fernandes - he only information I have found was on the 1900 census in Honolulu Hawaii ith wife and family, born in Portugal. Doesn't say anything more. I have ooked for a death record but didn't find one and looked on line for an bituary in the newspaper but also didn't find one.I have looked in assport records from Porto Santo and found several but not knowing any ther information about him don't know which or if any are him. In Hawaii hey lived at 1695 Beretania St. for many years. My mother remembers they iving on the house in the back of the property and her grandmother ary living in the front house at that address. The family you have below is the right family. they dropped the Drummond ame when they went to Hawaii. so they are listed in the 1900 census as anuel and Mary Gaspar( she went by Mary sometimes and Maria sometimes) my randmother Olympia Fernandez is listed with them. It also says that both anuel and Maria came to Hawaii in 1883. I don't know if they met on the oyage or met after getting to Hawaii. Thank you for any help.Darlene On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:57 AM, JOSE FERNANDES <jose.fernandes@rogers.com>wrote: > Darlene, I am not an expert on Hawaii, but there are others who have done a lot of work on Madeirans in Hawaii on the list. while we wait for their assistance, let's start: Was Manuel António Fernandes born in Portugal or Madeira or even in the Azores? This is an essential question for further research. Fernandes in Madeira are many, and if you include Portugal, well forget it! Now Porto Santo is a very small island. today it has no more than 4,500 inhabitants. The chances of missing something is very small. My search on the name you gave us provides the following: There is no name Drumond Gaspar but there is a Gaspar Drumond in Porto Santo. Only one. His name is Manuel Gaspar Drumond who marries a Dona Maria Pestana de Vasconcelos in 1862. Dona in this case, a sign of nobility, means that she at least thought she came from important families. It is like "lady". It was overdone in Porto Santo and also in Madeira. So is it Maria Amélia (Pestana)? Gaspar Drumond ? Now Manuel requested a passport in 1883. He is 42 at the time. He has children: Maria Pestana 20, Efigénia 14, Cecilia 11, Justiniano 8, Pedro 4. The passport file indicates that he is going to a foreign country ?. It is possible that the Sandwich Islands/Hawaii was at this time a diplomatic question. the file does not say if he is taking his family or when the family joined him but there is no request for his wife at a later date. At leas I haven't found it. Manuel's parents are Gaspar do ó Drumond and Joana de Vasconcelos. D. Maria Pestana de Vasconcelos's parents are João Pestana de Vaconcelos and D. Norberta Margarida da Camara (I suspect that here is the reason for the Dona). Maria Amélia Pestana Drumond was born on September 9, 1863. Is this your ancestor? Let's see if any of this info leads to something. In my opinion this is very close if not the one. Well? José Fernandes ________________________________ From: Dar Creuzer <dar.creuzer@gmail.com> To: PRT-MADEIRA@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, May 7, 2012 12:09:26 AM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Manuel Antonio Fernandes or Fernandez I am having trouble finding any information on my great grandfather Manuel Antonio Fernandez /Fernandes) he was born in Portugal, I don't know where , in 1845. He ended up in Hawaii and married Maria Amelia Drummond Gaspar on the big island of Hawaii before 1885 when their first child was born. They had the following children. Olympia, Gertrude, William, Manuel, Mary, John, Isabella. Manuel and Maria lived in Honolulu Hawaii where most of their children were born. at least two children were born in Kau Hawaii- Gertrude and Manuel. I don't know when he died but think it was before 1910, as he was in 1900 census but not in 1910 census with his wife. Maria died in Honolulu Oct. 29, 1946 buried in Kaimuki, Honolulu, Hawaii. Marie was born 9-1-1863 Porto Santo, Maderia Portugal. I am really wanting to know when he died in Hawaii and who his parents were. I have looked in ARM and find a few Manuel Fernandes but can't find anything else. Does anyone have any information on this Manuel or his family? I live in Wisconsin and can't go to Hawaii to research this family. thank you very much, Darlene Alling Creuzer ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message

Darlene, José was on spot, Just like a professional genealogist, but then this later would have asked for a huge fee for that piece of accurate info delivered with godspeed. Anywaym what puzzles me is the dropping out the prestigious surname Drummond in exchange for Gaspar. (it has no history, no charisma). They also had Pestana, Vasconcelos and Câmara to choose from. The last ones also representing the oldest families in Madeira. A number of people would cut a finger to have Drummond in their name - as it connects to Scottish (Stewarts) and English royalty. The Drummond name was cherished in Madeira and in Porto Santo. So, that's quite puzzling why they dropped one of the crown jewels ... Anyway, under the Portuguese law you're entitled to use any surname that yur ancestors, both in the maternal and paternal line have used. It's not at all uncommon that a surname, after being absent 3 or more generations, re-surfaces. In Portugal, in general, if on the mother side the surnames were more prestigious people would use them. Of course, in Portugal we have a quite different approach to names and surnames...We're a 8 centuries old country - so the hunting area is pharaminous. Cheers, cousin! I (and several others on this list) descend many times from the first Drummond - the famous João Drummond, gallant scottish knight, who fought besides the legendary Joan of Arc, in France, ( he was part of the Légion Écossaise. Quite recently William Sinclair, a distinguished historian and genealogist from Scotland, has confirmed this) and came to Madeira, in the early period of settlement. Miguel de Castro Henriques On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Jacqui Marcella <JMarcela@calwisp.com>wrote: > Have you checked Familysearch.org? They have a good collection of Hawaii > births, marriages and deaths. There is a wealth of free information and > I found a lot on my husband's family there. > > On 5/6/2012 9:09 PM, Dar Creuzer wrote: > > I am having trouble finding any information on my great grandfather > Manuel > > Antonio Fernandez /Fernandes) he was born in Portugal, I don't know > where , > > in 1845. He ended up in Hawaii and married Maria Amelia Drummond Gaspar > on > > the big island of Hawaii before 1885 when their first child was born. > They > > had the following children. Olympia, Gertrude, William, Manuel, Mary, > John, > > Isabella. Manuel and Maria lived in Honolulu Hawaii where most of their > > children were born. at least two children were born in Kau Hawaii- > Gertrude > > and Manuel. I don't know when he died but think it was before 1910, as he > > was in 1900 census but not in 1910 census with his wife. Maria died in > > Honolulu Oct. 29, 1946 buried in Kaimuki, Honolulu, Hawaii. Marie was > born > > 9-1-1863 Porto Santo, Maderia Portugal. > > I am really wanting to know when he died in Hawaii and who his parents > > were. I have looked in ARM and find a few Manuel Fernandes but can't find > > anything else. Does anyone have any information on this Manuel or his > > family? > > I live in Wisconsin and can't go to Hawaii to research this family. > > thank you very much, Darlene Alling Creuzer > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Pat, I don't know if I am related to Tracy Ca. Pombo's would be interested in finding out..... My paternal side in answer to your other question I am married to a souza. ----- Original Message ----- From: "JOSE FERNANDES" <jose.fernandes@rogers.com> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 5:41 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Manuel and Antonio Pombo from Ponto do Pargo Pat, I think that question is more for Sophie, although I believe all Fernandes Pombo from Ponta do Pargo are related directly. José Fernandes ________________________________ From: Pat Corbera <PatriciaCorbera@comcast.net> To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, May 4, 2012 5:22:56 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Manuel and Antonio Pombo from Ponto do Pargo Avelino, Are you related to the Pombos of Tracy CA ? Pat Silva Corbera Tracy CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Avelino Pombo" <apombo@johlt.com> To: "jose fernandes" <jose.fernandes@rogers.com>, prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2012 2:27:30 PM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Manuel and Antonio Pombo from Ponto do Pargo Jose' - thank you for the information you sent to Sophie below. Antonio Fernandes Pombo (born around 1883) married to Maria Clara de Jesus (Sequeira)in 1910 is my grandfather and grandmother. My great grandparents were Antonio Fernandes Pombo (born around 1850) and Maria Antonia De Jesus.. Is there a way to find their parents. Do you know if there are records that go back to about 1820? Ponta do Pargo? Thanks! Avelino Pombo ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I can't seem to find the Manuel Antonio Fernandes family (b. 1845 or otherwise) in the 1900 Hawaiian census. Since it seems that you have seen it, does it indicate what year Manuel Antonio Fernandes arrived in the Hawaiian Islands? I'm not finding a Manuel Antonio Fernandes among the Madeiran registered Portuguese citizens in Hawaii either, but there are a few Manuel Fernandes. If he did, in fact, come from Madeira then his passport information should be at the ARM site... No family connection, just curious, Pamela -----Original Message----- From: Dar Creuzer <dar.creuzer@gmail.com> To: PRT-MADEIRA <PRT-MADEIRA@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sun, May 6, 2012 9:10 pm Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Manuel Antonio Fernandes or Fernandez I am having trouble finding any information on my great grandfather Manuel ntonio Fernandez /Fernandes) he was born in Portugal, I don't know where , n 1845. He ended up in Hawaii and married Maria Amelia Drummond Gaspar on he big island of Hawaii before 1885 when their first child was born. They ad the following children. Olympia, Gertrude, William, Manuel, Mary, John, sabella. Manuel and Maria lived in Honolulu Hawaii where most of their hildren were born. at least two children were born in Kau Hawaii- Gertrude nd Manuel. I don't know when he died but think it was before 1910, as he as in 1900 census but not in 1910 census with his wife. Maria died in onolulu Oct. 29, 1946 buried in Kaimuki, Honolulu, Hawaii. Marie was born -1-1863 Porto Santo, Maderia Portugal. am really wanting to know when he died in Hawaii and who his parents ere. I have looked in ARM and find a few Manuel Fernandes but can't find nything else. Does anyone have any information on this Manuel or his amily? live in Wisconsin and can't go to Hawaii to research this family. hank you very much, Darlene Alling Creuzer ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message

Miguel, I posted my reply without seeing your response to Darlene. I don't know if I am worth that much because I have learned from you and Paulo that unless you have the documentation...it could be fiction. However, I have a feeling about this one. If the other children are in Hawaii then we have got it! Now I also sent you an e-mail earlier last week. Did you get? I had a couple,e of questions for you. Do you want me to re-post it?   José Fernandes ________________________________ From: Miguel de Castro Henriques <migueldecastrohenriques@gmail.com> To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, May 7, 2012 12:41:18 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Manuel Antonio Fernandes or Fernandez Darlene, José was on spot, Just like a professional genealogist,  but then this later would have asked for a huge fee for that piece of accurate info delivered with godspeed. Anywaym what puzzles me is the dropping out the prestigious surname Drummond in exchange for Gaspar. (it has no history, no charisma).  They also had Pestana, Vasconcelos and Câmara to choose from. The last ones also representing the oldest families in Madeira. A number of people would cut a finger to have Drummond in their name - as it connects to Scottish (Stewarts) and English royalty. The Drummond name was cherished in Madeira and in Porto Santo. So, that's quite puzzling why they dropped one of the crown jewels ... Anyway, under the Portuguese law you're entitled to use any surname that yur ancestors, both in the maternal and paternal line have used. It's not at all uncommon that a surname, after being absent 3 or more generations, re-surfaces. In Portugal, in general, if on the mother side the surnames were more prestigious people would use them. Of course, in Portugal we have a quite different approach to names and surnames...We're a 8 centuries old country - so the hunting area is pharaminous. Cheers, cousin! I (and several others on this list) descend many times from the first Drummond  - the famous João Drummond, gallant scottish knight, who fought besides the legendary Joan of Arc, in France, ( he was part of the Légion Écossaise. Quite recently William Sinclair, a distinguished historian and genealogist from Scotland, has confirmed this) and came to Madeira,  in the early period of settlement. Miguel de Castro Henriques On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Jacqui Marcella <JMarcela@calwisp.com>wrote: > Have you checked Familysearch.org? They have a good collection of Hawaii > births, marriages and deaths. There is a wealth of free information and > I found a lot on my husband's family there. > > On 5/6/2012 9:09 PM, Dar Creuzer wrote: > > I am having trouble finding any information on my great grandfather > Manuel > > Antonio Fernandez /Fernandes) he was born in Portugal, I don't know > where , > > in 1845. He ended up in Hawaii and married Maria Amelia Drummond Gaspar > on > > the big island of Hawaii before 1885 when their first child was born. > They > > had the following children. Olympia, Gertrude, William, Manuel, Mary, > John, > > Isabella. Manuel and Maria lived in Honolulu Hawaii where most of their > > children were born. at least two children were born in Kau Hawaii- > Gertrude > > and Manuel. I don't know when he died but think it was before 1910, as he > > was in 1900 census but not in 1910 census with his wife. Maria died in > > Honolulu Oct. 29, 1946 buried in Kaimuki, Honolulu, Hawaii.  Marie was > born > > 9-1-1863 Porto Santo, Maderia Portugal. > > I am really wanting to know when he died in Hawaii and who his parents > > were. I have looked in ARM and find a few Manuel Fernandes but can't find > > anything else. Does anyone have any information on this Manuel or his > > family? > > I live in Wisconsin and can't go to Hawaii to research this family. > > thank you very much, Darlene Alling Creuzer > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

darlene, Did Maria use Amélia at any time? They dropped Drumond? Well that is a name with all lot of history.  If you go into the files of our list you will find a lot written about this. Gaspar is not really a surname. 1883 is the time of the passport request by Gaspar Drumond. I think that these are the Gapar Drumond you are looking for. From Porto Santo, I believe it is almost 95% correct. HELP! What do others think? I don't think that Manuel António Fernandes is from Porto Santo. I don't think he was from Portugal, meaning the mainland in Europe.That is not a name from Porto Santo , and the likely-hood of a Portuguese marrying a Madeiran at this time is remote. This is my bias.That is 90% correct. Both Marias were born in 1863. It seems is September. I know that there are a lot of Marias, but in Porto Santo only one born to a Gaspar Drumond. There is also baptism certificates for Efigénia. There the father is listed as manuel Gaspar do ó and Maria Pestana. It is a name change but nothing unusual.  His father was Gaspar do ó. For Justiniano he is named Manuel gaspar Drumond but mother is Maria Pestana Drumond and last for Pedro she is known as Maria da Piedade Vasconcelos. Once again there is  nothing here. Her mother was a Vasconcelos. This is what makes Madeiran genealogy fun! Anyway, do these children show up anywhere in Hawaii? Look at this one: There is a passport request for Hawaii  from a Manuel Fernandes in 1883. But what is interesting is that his father was a António Fernandes married to Felisberta da Luz (da Luz is not a surname- means light). So it might make sense that he named his son after him. If we ever found out that a grandparent from either side was a Manuel- bingo! We are getting there. One minor challenge; he was 45 but single! Any of this info coincides with anything you know? Let's hear what others will say, but I am suggesting I have got your maternal side of this correct.   José Fernandes ________________________________ From: Dar Creuzer <dar.creuzer@gmail.com> To: JOSE FERNANDES <jose.fernandes@rogers.com>; prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, May 7, 2012 11:03:37 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Manuel Antonio Fernandes or Fernandez Jose: Thank you for your response. First of all Manuel Antonio Fernandes - the only information I have found was on the 1900 census in Honolulu Hawaii with wife and family, born in Portugal. Doesn't say anything more. I have looked for a death record but didn't find one and looked on line for an obituary in the newspaper but also didn't find one.I have looked in passport records from Porto Santo and found several but not knowing any other information about him don't know which or if any are him. In Hawaii they lived at 1695 Beretania St. for many years. My mother remembers they living on the house in the back of the property and her grandmother Mary living in the front house at that address.   The family you have below is the right family. they dropped the Drummond name when they went to Hawaii. so they are listed in the 1900 census as Manuel and Mary Gaspar( she went by Mary sometimes and Maria sometimes) my grandmother Olympia Fernandez is listed with them. It also says that both Manuel and Maria came to Hawaii in 1883. I don't know if they met on the voyage or met after getting to Hawaii.   Thank you for any help.Darlene On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:57 AM, JOSE FERNANDES <jose.fernandes@rogers.com> wrote: Darlene, > >I am not an expert on Hawaii, but there are others who have done a lot of work on Madeirans in Hawaii on the list. while we wait for their assistance, let's start: > >Was Manuel António Fernandes born in Portugal or Madeira or even in the Azores? This is an essential question for further research. Fernandes in Madeira are many, and if you include Portugal, well forget it! > >Now Porto Santo is a very small island. today it has no more than 4,500 inhabitants. The chances of missing something is very small. > >My search  on the name you gave us provides the following: >There is no name Drumond Gaspar  but there is a Gaspar Drumond in Porto Santo. Only one. His name is Manuel Gaspar Drumond who marries a Dona Maria Pestana de Vasconcelos in 1862. Dona in this case, a sign of nobility, means that she at least thought she came from important families. It is like "lady". It was overdone in Porto Santo and also in Madeira. > >So is it Maria Amélia (Pestana)? Gaspar Drumond ? > >Now Manuel requested a passport in 1883. He is 42 at the time. He has children: Maria Pestana 20, Efigénia 14, Cecilia 11, Justiniano 8, Pedro 4. The passport file indicates that he is going to a foreign country ?. It is possible that the Sandwich Islands/Hawaii was at this time a diplomatic question. the file does not say if he is taking his family or when the family joined him but there is no request for his wife at a later date. At leas I haven't found it. > >Manuel's parents are Gaspar do ó Drumond and Joana de Vasconcelos. D. Maria Pestana de Vasconcelos's parents are João Pestana de Vaconcelos and D. Norberta Margarida da Camara (I suspect that here is the reason for the Dona). > >Maria Amélia Pestana Drumond was born on September 9, 1863. > >Is this your ancestor? Let's see if any of this info leads to something. In my opinion this is very close if not the one. >Well? > >  >José Fernandes > > >________________________________ > From: Dar Creuzer <dar.creuzer@gmail.com> >To: PRT-MADEIRA@rootsweb.com >Sent: Monday, May 7, 2012 12:09:26 AM >Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Manuel Antonio Fernandes or Fernandez > > >I am having trouble finding any information on my great grandfather Manuel >Antonio Fernandez /Fernandes) he was born in Portugal, I don't know where , >in 1845. He ended up in Hawaii and married Maria Amelia Drummond Gaspar on >the big island of Hawaii before 1885 when their first child was born. They >had the following children. Olympia, Gertrude, William, Manuel, Mary, John, >Isabella. Manuel and Maria lived in Honolulu Hawaii where most of their >children were born. at least two children were born in Kau Hawaii- Gertrude >and Manuel. I don't know when he died but think it was before 1910, as he >was in 1900 census but not in 1910 census with his wife. Maria died in >Honolulu Oct. 29, 1946 buried in Kaimuki, Honolulu, Hawaii.  Marie was born >9-1-1863 Porto Santo, Maderia Portugal. >I am really wanting to know when he died in Hawaii and who his parents >were. I have looked in ARM and find a few Manuel Fernandes but can't find >anything else. Does anyone have any information on this Manuel or his >family? >I live in Wisconsin and can't go to Hawaii to research this family. >thank you very much, Darlene Alling Creuzer > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Jose: Thank you for your response. First of all Manuel Antonio Fernandes - the only information I have found was on the 1900 census in Honolulu Hawaii with wife and family, born in Portugal. Doesn't say anything more. I have looked for a death record but didn't find one and looked on line for an obituary in the newspaper but also didn't find one.I have looked in passport records from Porto Santo and found several but not knowing any other information about him don't know which or if any are him. In Hawaii they lived at 1695 Beretania St. for many years. My mother remembers they living on the house in the back of the property and her grandmother Mary living in the front house at that address. The family you have below is the right family. they dropped the Drummond name when they went to Hawaii. so they are listed in the 1900 census as Manuel and Mary Gaspar( she went by Mary sometimes and Maria sometimes) my grandmother Olympia Fernandez is listed with them. It also says that both Manuel and Maria came to Hawaii in 1883. I don't know if they met on the voyage or met after getting to Hawaii. Thank you for any help.Darlene On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:57 AM, JOSE FERNANDES <jose.fernandes@rogers.com>wrote: > Darlene, > > I am not an expert on Hawaii, but there are others who have done a lot of > work on Madeirans in Hawaii on the list. while we wait for their > assistance, let's start: > > Was Manuel António Fernandes born in Portugal or Madeira or even in the > Azores? This is an essential question for further research. Fernandes in > Madeira are many, and if you include Portugal, well forget it! > > Now Porto Santo is a very small island. today it has no more than > 4,500 inhabitants. The chances of missing something is very small. > > My search on the name you gave us provides the following: > There is no name Drumond Gaspar but there is a Gaspar Drumond in Porto > Santo. Only one. His name is Manuel Gaspar Drumond who marries a Dona Maria > Pestana de Vasconcelos in 1862. Dona in this case, a sign of nobility, > means that she at least thought she came from important families. It is > like "lady". It was overdone in Porto Santo and also in Madeira. > > So is it Maria Amélia (Pestana)? Gaspar Drumond ? > > Now Manuel requested a passport in 1883. He is 42 at the time. He has > children: Maria Pestana 20, Efigénia 14, Cecilia 11, Justiniano 8, Pedro 4. > The passport file indicates that he is going to a foreign country ?. It is > possible that the Sandwich Islands/Hawaii was at this time a diplomatic > question. the file does not say if he is taking his family or when the > family joined him but there is no request for his wife at a later date. At > leas I haven't found it. > > Manuel's parents are Gaspar do ó Drumond and Joana de Vasconcelos. D. > Maria Pestana de Vasconcelos's parents are João Pestana de Vaconcelos and > D. Norberta Margarida da Camara (I suspect that here is the reason for the > Dona). > > Maria Amélia Pestana Drumond was born on September 9, 1863. > > Is this your ancestor? Let's see if any of this info leads to something. > In my opinion this is very close if not the one. > Well? > > > José Fernandes > > > ________________________________ > From: Dar Creuzer <dar.creuzer@gmail.com> > To: PRT-MADEIRA@rootsweb.com > Sent: Monday, May 7, 2012 12:09:26 AM > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Manuel Antonio Fernandes or Fernandez > > I am having trouble finding any information on my great grandfather Manuel > Antonio Fernandez /Fernandes) he was born in Portugal, I don't know where , > in 1845. He ended up in Hawaii and married Maria Amelia Drummond Gaspar on > the big island of Hawaii before 1885 when their first child was born. They > had the following children. Olympia, Gertrude, William, Manuel, Mary, John, > Isabella. Manuel and Maria lived in Honolulu Hawaii where most of their > children were born. at least two children were born in Kau Hawaii- Gertrude > and Manuel. I don't know when he died but think it was before 1910, as he > was in 1900 census but not in 1910 census with his wife. Maria died in > Honolulu Oct. 29, 1946 buried in Kaimuki, Honolulu, Hawaii. Marie was born > 9-1-1863 Porto Santo, Maderia Portugal. > I am really wanting to know when he died in Hawaii and who his parents > were. I have looked in ARM and find a few Manuel Fernandes but can't find > anything else. Does anyone have any information on this Manuel or his > family? > I live in Wisconsin and can't go to Hawaii to research this family. > thank you very much, Darlene Alling Creuzer > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Have you checked Familysearch.org? They have a good collection of Hawaii births, marriages and deaths. There is a wealth of free information and I found a lot on my husband's family there. On 5/6/2012 9:09 PM, Dar Creuzer wrote: > I am having trouble finding any information on my great grandfather Manuel > Antonio Fernandez /Fernandes) he was born in Portugal, I don't know where , > in 1845. He ended up in Hawaii and married Maria Amelia Drummond Gaspar on > the big island of Hawaii before 1885 when their first child was born. They > had the following children. Olympia, Gertrude, William, Manuel, Mary, John, > Isabella. Manuel and Maria lived in Honolulu Hawaii where most of their > children were born. at least two children were born in Kau Hawaii- Gertrude > and Manuel. I don't know when he died but think it was before 1910, as he > was in 1900 census but not in 1910 census with his wife. Maria died in > Honolulu Oct. 29, 1946 buried in Kaimuki, Honolulu, Hawaii. Marie was born > 9-1-1863 Porto Santo, Maderia Portugal. > I am really wanting to know when he died in Hawaii and who his parents > were. I have looked in ARM and find a few Manuel Fernandes but can't find > anything else. Does anyone have any information on this Manuel or his > family? > I live in Wisconsin and can't go to Hawaii to research this family. > thank you very much, Darlene Alling Creuzer > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Darlene, I am not an expert on Hawaii, but there are others who have done a lot of work on Madeirans in Hawaii on the list. while we wait for their assistance, let's start: Was Manuel António Fernandes born in Portugal or Madeira or even in the Azores? This is an essential question for further research. Fernandes in Madeira are many, and if you include Portugal, well forget it! Now Porto Santo is a very small island. today it has no more than 4,500 inhabitants. The chances of missing something is very small. My search  on the name you gave us provides the following: There is no name Drumond Gaspar  but there is a Gaspar Drumond in Porto Santo. Only one. His name is Manuel Gaspar Drumond who marries a Dona Maria Pestana de Vasconcelos in 1862. Dona in this case, a sign of nobility, means that she at least thought she came from important families. It is like "lady". It was overdone in Porto Santo and also in Madeira. So is it Maria Amélia (Pestana)? Gaspar Drumond ? Now Manuel requested a passport in 1883. He is 42 at the time. He has children: Maria Pestana 20, Efigénia 14, Cecilia 11, Justiniano 8, Pedro 4. The passport file indicates that he is going to a foreign country ?. It is possible that the Sandwich Islands/Hawaii was at this time a diplomatic question. the file does not say if he is taking his family or when the family joined him but there is no request for his wife at a later date. At leas I haven't found it. Manuel's parents are Gaspar do ó Drumond and Joana de Vasconcelos. D. Maria Pestana de Vasconcelos's parents are João Pestana de Vaconcelos and D. Norberta Margarida da Camara (I suspect that here is the reason for the Dona). Maria Amélia Pestana Drumond was born on September 9, 1863. Is this your ancestor? Let's see if any of this info leads to something. In my opinion this is very close if not the one. Well?   José Fernandes ________________________________ From: Dar Creuzer <dar.creuzer@gmail.com> To: PRT-MADEIRA@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, May 7, 2012 12:09:26 AM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Manuel Antonio Fernandes or Fernandez I am having trouble finding any information on my great grandfather Manuel Antonio Fernandez /Fernandes) he was born in Portugal, I don't know where , in 1845. He ended up in Hawaii and married Maria Amelia Drummond Gaspar on the big island of Hawaii before 1885 when their first child was born. They had the following children. Olympia, Gertrude, William, Manuel, Mary, John, Isabella. Manuel and Maria lived in Honolulu Hawaii where most of their children were born. at least two children were born in Kau Hawaii- Gertrude and Manuel. I don't know when he died but think it was before 1910, as he was in 1900 census but not in 1910 census with his wife. Maria died in Honolulu Oct. 29, 1946 buried in Kaimuki, Honolulu, Hawaii.  Marie was born 9-1-1863 Porto Santo, Maderia Portugal. I am really wanting to know when he died in Hawaii and who his parents were. I have looked in ARM and find a few Manuel Fernandes but can't find anything else. Does anyone have any information on this Manuel or his family? I live in Wisconsin and can't go to Hawaii to research this family. thank you very much, Darlene Alling Creuzer ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am having trouble finding any information on my great grandfather Manuel Antonio Fernandez /Fernandes) he was born in Portugal, I don't know where , in 1845. He ended up in Hawaii and married Maria Amelia Drummond Gaspar on the big island of Hawaii before 1885 when their first child was born. They had the following children. Olympia, Gertrude, William, Manuel, Mary, John, Isabella. Manuel and Maria lived in Honolulu Hawaii where most of their children were born. at least two children were born in Kau Hawaii- Gertrude and Manuel. I don't know when he died but think it was before 1910, as he was in 1900 census but not in 1910 census with his wife. Maria died in Honolulu Oct. 29, 1946 buried in Kaimuki, Honolulu, Hawaii. Marie was born 9-1-1863 Porto Santo, Maderia Portugal. I am really wanting to know when he died in Hawaii and who his parents were. I have looked in ARM and find a few Manuel Fernandes but can't find anything else. Does anyone have any information on this Manuel or his family? I live in Wisconsin and can't go to Hawaii to research this family. thank you very much, Darlene Alling Creuzer

Jose, I think we're related, other than having ancestrial roots in Madeira...Not a direct line, but just one of the branches... Diogo Soares Perestrelo (C.c. Joanna Castro)...Diogo is my 4th C. 16 t/r. --> Garcia Perestrelo (C.c. Maria Taveira) -->Bartholomeu Perestrelo (Capt.)(C.c. Aldonca Rodrigues da Camara) --> Bartholomeu Perestrelo (Capt.) (C.c. Guimoar Vaz Teixeira) --->Bartholomeu Perestrelo (C.c. Isabel Moniz)--> Vasco Martins Moniz (Cavaleiro/Knight) (C.c. Brites Pereira). Vasco and Brites are my 19th GGParents. I have Joanna Castro (C.c. Diogo Soares Perestrelo) as being the daughter of a Joao Rodrigues Calaca e Ana Ferreira de Castro. Ana is the paternal great-granddaughter of Afonso Pires da Charneca (C.c. Constanca Esteves). I have a note that Afonso and Constanca's son a Martim Afonso Charneca was the Bishop of Porto e da Braga. Not married... but with children...Margarida; Maria and Leonor all with the surname of Miranda... Pat

Hello Miguel, In matching your posted Perestrelo ancestry to what I have in my file I find the following possible error ***** I would appreicate your input... Pat You wrote the following: "BTW the name Perestrelo is the Portuguese version of the Italian name Palestrelli - translation "by or through the stars" . Apparently the first Palestrelli was a jewish astrologer...in the Italian "trecento".." "As many others with Madeiran ascendancies I also descend from Bartolomeu Perestrelo." "1) (I agree) Bartolomeu Perestrelo, 1º capitão –donatário da ilha do Porto Santo (1446), teve de sua 3ª mulher D. Isabel Moniz:" "2) (I agree) Bartolomeu Pesrestrelo, 2º capitão-donatário de Porto Santo (1473) casou com Guiomar Teixeira (filha de Trsitão Vaz), tiveram:" "3) (I agree) Bartolomeu Pesrestrelo, 3º Capit.-Donatário (1529) casou com Aldonça Câmara (neta paterna de João Gonçalves Zarco), tiveram:" NOTE: *****(It is here that I have Garcia Perestrelo being the son of Bartolomeu and Aldonca. ( I have Garcia C.c. Maria Taveira, their line then continues with their son Diogo Soares Perestrelo C.c. Joana de Castro e Menezes). "4) (I agree) Diogo Soares Perestrelo, 4º Cap.-don. (1545) casou com Joana de Castro e Menezes,tiveram:"

Patricia, Like Miguel I believe that if can trace your family to the late 1400's in Madeira we are related.  But, dear cousin, this summer in Porto Santo we will raise a glass to your health and our common ancestors,  lords of Porto Santo. Thanks for the additional information .I didn't have that. Castro and Calaça, as well as Mendonça and others, after all of these years and the many challenges that the people of Porto Santo had to endure, are still much a part of the island's people.   José Fernandes ________________________________ From: Pat Corbera <PatriciaCorbera@comcast.net> To: Prt-Madeira List Group <PRT-MADEIRA@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 5, 2012 6:43:01 PM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Possible linking w/Jose - Diogo Soares Perestrelo Jose, I think we're related, other than having ancestrial roots in Madeira...Not a direct line, but just one of the branches... Diogo Soares Perestrelo (C.c. Joanna Castro)...Diogo is my 4th C. 16 t/r. --> Garcia Perestrelo (C.c. Maria Taveira) -->Bartholomeu Perestrelo (Capt.)(C.c. Aldonca Rodrigues da Camara) --> Bartholomeu Perestrelo (Capt.) (C.c. Guimoar Vaz Teixeira) --->Bartholomeu Perestrelo (C.c. Isabel Moniz)--> Vasco Martins Moniz (Cavaleiro/Knight) (C.c. Brites Pereira). Vasco and Brites are my 19th GGParents. I have Joanna Castro (C.c. Diogo Soares Perestrelo) as being the daughter of a Joao Rodrigues Calaca e Ana Ferreira de Castro.  Ana is the paternal great-granddaughter of Afonso Pires da Charneca (C.c. Constanca Esteves). I have a note that Afonso and Constanca's son a Martim Afonso Charneca was the Bishop of Porto e da Braga. Not married... but with children...Margarida; Maria and Leonor all with the surname of Miranda... Pat ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Pat, I will get in the middle of this because I also posted something on this for Miguel and I need to correct it. There is a second  captain who was not a Perestrlo but had married a Perestrelo girl. It seems his mother-in-law ( Bartolomeu II's mother) sold him the island. Eventually the King restored Bartolomeu II's right. His son Bartolomeu III murdered his wife. She was Aldonça Delgado, a granddaughter of Zarco. eventually he was sent away and died in the Algarves. There is a first son named Garcia who unfortunately, like his father, murdered his wife. This happened while his father was still alive. It seems that he may have governed the "capitania" but was never recognized as captain. Thus Diogo, our magnificent and not a murder ancestor, inherited Porto Santo. The good thing here is that Diogo was not a Bartolomeu! That is confucing. Have I got this right?   José Fernandes ________________________________ From: Pat Corbera <PatriciaCorbera@comcast.net> To: Prt-Madeira List Group <PRT-MADEIRA@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 5, 2012 5:53:13 PM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Perestrelo Ancestry - Attn: Miguel Hello Miguel, In matching your posted Perestrelo ancestry to what I have in my file I find the following possible error ***** I would appreicate your input... Pat You wrote the following: "BTW the name Perestrelo is the Portuguese version of  the Italian name Palestrelli - translation  "by or through the stars" . Apparently the first Palestrelli was a jewish astrologer...in the Italian "trecento".." "As many others with Madeiran ascendancies I also descend from Bartolomeu Perestrelo." "1) (I agree) Bartolomeu Perestrelo, 1º capitão –donatário da ilha do Porto Santo (1446), teve de sua 3ª mulher D. Isabel Moniz:" "2) (I agree) Bartolomeu Pesrestrelo, 2º capitão-donatário de Porto Santo (1473) casou com Guiomar Teixeira (filha de Trsitão Vaz), tiveram:" "3) (I agree) Bartolomeu Pesrestrelo, 3º Capit.-Donatário (1529) casou com Aldonça Câmara (neta paterna de João Gonçalves Zarco), tiveram:" NOTE: *****(It is here that I have Garcia Perestrelo being the son of Bartolomeu and Aldonca. ( I have Garcia C.c.  Maria Taveira, their line then continues with their son Diogo Soares Perestrelo C.c. Joana de Castro e Menezes).  "4) (I agree) Diogo Soares Perestrelo, 4º Cap.-don. (1545) casou com Joana de Castro e Menezes,tiveram:" ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message