You're right, of course, but it is not probable. I have one of these cases with one of my great grand fathers, who was born AFTER his father died, though his mother never remarried again as far as I know. I believe my great grand father had very few or none contact with his father's family - fisherman from Câmara de Lobos - for that reason, and he and his sisters were raised with a totally different social status than their uncles and cousins. Paulo On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:16:21 -0800 (PST), Luis Beal <luisbeal@yahoo.com> wrote: > She could have been barely pregnant when her husband died and still > pregnant at the time she remarried > Luis Beal -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

Luís, Thanks, I already feared that, but I wasn't sure. I've subcribed to the Azorean list some time ago, though I don't go there very often. Today I made my first post about one of those dead ends, but I'm not very hopeful... When the only information you have is that someone is "Catarina Correia, da Ilha de São Miguel", it's almost hopeless... :-| Paulo On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:13:31 -0800 (PST), Luis Beal <luisbeal@yahoo.com> wrote: > I'm sorry I do not know, my lines so far are only in Madeira and the > continent. But I did a quick search for some one else the other day and > could not find anything like the ARM. You may want to subscribe to the > Acores list and ask. > Luis Beal -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

Cece, Luís (and everyone else), Does Azores has any index of marriages as we have here on Madeira? I have some lines going to Azores that I'm treating for now as dead ends... :-| Paulo On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:03:26 -0600, Cece Camara <cece@soccer4all.com> wrote: > Mary, > The microfilms that you order from LDS have to be viewed at the LDS > library. > There are local ones all over the world. Where do you live...I'll be > happy > to look and see if there is one near you. > You must have a microfilm reader to view the microfilm...they have these > at > the local LDS centers...so no, it cannot be done at home. Here is the > link > to familysearch (the LDS website)...just look around, and don't be > afraid to > ask questions...we were all in your shoes at one time!! > Cece > www.familysearch.org -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

Correia is very prevalent in Sao Miguel and in some other Azorean islands. Since you are looking for people before or about 1600, then you will have to look to published books such as the one mentioned by Manuel Furtado- that is Rodrigo Rodrigues. I must admit, for such a small island, I am impressed at the number of cultural works published in and about Madeira. JR ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paulo Gomes Jardim" <darwin@spamcop.net> To: <PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] ordering copies?? > Julie, > > Do you know how common was this Correia surname on S.Miguel, Açores at the > time? > If it was as common as in Madeira? > > Paulo > > On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 15:33:06 EST, <BlueGoose6@aol.com> wrote: > >> Although the time frame would be about right. Her parents were married >> around 1540. >> Julie > > > > -- > " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- > Horacio > > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >

I would like to add a small note here. Maria Gomes Jardim has to be born before 1722, as her mother Francisca Gomes Jardim had a second marriage at that date with Manuel Martins, being a widow. Paulo On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 01:22:19 -0500, Karen Forbes <Forbes0310@comcast.net> wrote: > 4. Joao Gomes Jardim was born abt. 1718 perhaps in Santo Antonio, > Funchal, Madeira. He married Maria Gomes Jardim February 13, 1742/43 in > Santo Antonio, Funchal, Madeira, daughter of Sebastino Jardim and > Francisca Jardim. She was born abt. 1723 perhaps in Santo Antonio, > Funchal, Madeira. -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

Well Paulo how many of her children's records have you looked up where her place of birth may be written? Hopefully she had more than one child and in one of her kids baptism (or marriage) records there may be a bit more information that will be more useful. Luis Paulo Gomes Jardim <darwin@spamcop.net> wrote: Lu�s, Thanks, I already feared that, but I wasn't sure. I've subcribed to the Azorean list some time ago, though I don't go there very often. Today I made my first post about one of those dead ends, but I'm not very hopeful... When the only information you have is that someone is "Catarina Correia, da Ilha de S�o Miguel", it's almost hopeless... :-| Paulo On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:13:31 -0800 (PST), Luis Beal wrote: > I'm sorry I do not know, my lines so far are only in Madeira and the > continent. But I did a quick search for some one else the other day and > could not find anything like the ARM. You may want to subscribe to the > Acores list and ask. > Luis Beal -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!

When I help people I always tell them that in genealogy women are always their father's daughters and never their husband's wives. One is never to enter a woman's married name in their database only the maiden name(s). Adding the married name, in my book, is a "modernity" no no! Luis Beal Paulo Gomes Jardim <darwin@spamcop.net> wrote: I once used to include the archaic versions (Affon�os, Hyeronimos, Yoams) of the names on the AKA field too, but with the time that proved to be quite contraproducive and useless, as it would increase greately the pool of names everytime I do a "brute force" search on the name list. Now I don't care much about the spelling of the given names, and always update them to their current versions. I still keep on the notes field the way the surname was spelled, as it helps to trace it's evolution throught the time. Another thing I do is discard any "AKAs" which are obvious mistakes made by the priests when writing the records, and only leave a note about that on the notes field. As for the name that stays on the program as "main name", I always choose the most complete version. If anyone was known at some point as "D. Ana Isabel do Carvalhal Atouguia da Costa Bettencourt de Esmeraldo e Castelo Branco", that's the way she stays, even if the marriage record names her simply as "Ana Bettencourt". That way I can easily spot her among the many other "Anas de Bettencourt". The only exception is for the modern (and disgusting, IMO) habit of assigning the husband name to the wife after the marriage. I'm very sorry, but these "modernities" don't enter my database. ;) Paulo Paulo On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:25:12 -0800 (PST), Luis Beal wrote: > I leave Jardim as the last name mainly because at the time I started > researching the program I used did not allow for > long or double surnames. But another thing I do is I always add > significant variations of the name to my program > personal notes. The way I find the name spelled out on the marriage > record is the way it stays on my program, and any > other records if it is switched I add it to my notes like I said, or you > can add it to the "also known as" area. > Luis Beal -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Cece, I believe you'll be interested in knowing that the Stº António AFONSO family (the one that come from the singer, I believe) were (still are?) rich owners of large properties on Santo da Serra, and it seems that at some point that family has lived there. This is what my mother, who knows them, has told me. These are almost certainly your Afonsos, since that surname was very rare on that specific parish of Santo da Serra. You may be interested in reading the title "Afonsos de Stº António" on "Famílias da Madeira e do Porto Santo" which, I believe, deals with them. Paulo -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

While NESOS, on the other hand, remains out of this world... Maybe on the 3rd day... Paulo On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 07:39:50 -0600, Cece Camara <cece@soccer4all.com> wrote: > Just thought I'd let y'all know the database is working again! > Cece > > > ============================== > New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your > ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. > Learn more: > http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429 > -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

Cece, These are the rules I'm using, which I got from my own experience: 1. The "De" particle, as in "de Freitas" or "dos Santos" shall never be included in the surname; 2. Patronimics, as in "Maria Rodrigues daugther of Rui Fernandes, son of Fernão Dias" shall not be used as a surname, unless you're certain that it really has become a surname; 3. Always update the name to it's current version: No "Affonços" or "Hyeronimos" shall remain. And specific to the point of this thread, 4. Include every (useful) version of the name as an alias, if your software allows that. For example, Maria, daugther of João Correia de Aguiar and Ana de Freitas can be known as Maria Correia, Maria de Aguiar, Maria Correia de Aguiar or Maria de Freitas. 5. Try to make the distintion between nicknames and surnames. In the case of the "Gomes Jardim" Gomes is a true surname, while Jardim seems to be a nickname. When it is passed to the descendancy it was always "Gomes Jardim" or "Gomes", but never or very rarely "Jardim". The same with the "Gomes Perneta". On these cases I use "Gomes Jardim" as a surname. On the other cases, of double surnames, I do as in point 4 and *never* use them combined. With a database of more than 60.000 names, I can tell you that it is working quite well. :) Paulo On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 07:21:46 -0600, Cece Camara <cece@soccer4all.com> wrote: > I was just wondering about how most of you deal with these in your family > tree program. > I am talking of course about the Fernades de Aguiars, or the Affonso da > Silvas or the Martins de Nobregas > etc etc... > > Do you use just the final surname as the last name or the conjoined > names as > the last name? > I can't decide which is the easier way to find these people. The most > frustrating thing > is that you will find them with just one surname on one record and a > conjoined surname on the next! > Then, how do you decide which one to use? > > I seem to be going back and forth depending on the name...but it's > getting > really diffucult > as my database is nearing 3000 names...and they are getting harder to > find! > > I guess I'd really like to know if there is a geneaological standard for > how > to record these names. > > Cece > > > > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

Although the time frame would be about right. Her parents were married around 1540. Julie

Sorry my Catarina Correia parents were Martim Anes de Sousa and Salanda Lopes. Her spouse was Pedro Rodrigues Cordeiro. Julie

Paulo, I have a Catarina Correia in my lineage on Sao Miguel. Julie Gerren

Romam is the same as Romao with the till on the a. There are a few males with that name in S. Roque on the arm site. They also used to write Joao as Joam, and Sebastiao as Sebastiam. Luis Beal M B <mb_mhamid@yahoo.com> wrote: Paulo and Karen: I don't see any immediate links to the Gomes Jardim names you mention. I do have a few in my family--maybe you will recognize them if you have more extensive information on the family. Below are 3 generations of Gomes Jardim. The first couple started out in Sao Roque in the late 1600s, and by the early 1700s, their children are in Santo Antonio. I am also interested in the wife of my earliest Gomes Jardim: In�cia Gomes Romam. Has anyone heard of this name (Romam?) in Sao Roque? I found there marriage date (1680) on the ARM website but haven't seen the actual record to get the names of both spouses' parents. Below are my meager records on this family: Descendants of Manuel Gomes Jardim Generation No. 1 1. MANUEL GOMES1 JARDIM was born Unknown in S�o Roque, Madeira Island, Portugal, and died Bef. February 11, 1721/22. He married IN�CIA GOMES ROMAM 1680 in S�o Roque, Madeira Island, Portugal. She was born Unknown in S�o Roque, Madeira Island, Portugal, and died Bef. February 11, 1721/22. Children of MANUEL JARDIM and IN�CIA ROMAM are: 2. i. MARIA GOMES2 JARDIM, b. Unknown, Sao Roque, Madeira Island, Portugal; d. Unknown. 3. ii. AGOSTINHO GOMES, b. Unknown; d. Unknown. Generation No. 2 2. MARIA GOMES2 JARDIM (MANUEL GOMES1) was born Unknown in Sao Roque, Madeira Island, Portugal, and died Unknown. She married (1) GASPAR RODRIGUES DE GOVEIA, son of MANUEL DE GOVEIA and MARIA REIS. He was born Unknown in Santo Antonio, Madeira Island, Portugal, and died Bef. February 11, 1721/22. She married (2) MANUEL MARTINS PEREIRA February 11, 1721/22 in Santo Antonio, Funchal, Madeira Island, Portugal, son of ANTONIO PEREIRA and MARIA FERNANDES. He was born 1668 in Santo Antonio, Funchal, Madeira Island, Portugal, and died Unknown. Children of MARIA JARDIM and GASPAR DE GOVEIA are: 4. i. IGNACIA GOMES3 JARDIM, b. July 22, 1714, Santo Antonio, Funchal, Madeira Island, Portugal; d. Bef. February 09, 1782. ii. HELENA JARDIM, b. October 22, 1716, Santo Antonio, Funchal, Madeira Island, Portugal; d. Unknown. 3. AGOSTINHO2 GOMES (MANUEL GOMES1 JARDIM) was born Unknown, and died Unknown. He married THOMASIA GOMES. She was born Unknown, and died Unknown. Child of AGOSTINHO GOMES and THOMASIA GOMES is: i. MANUEL GOMES3 JARDIM, b. Unknown; d. Unknown; m. MARIA JOSEFA, February 07, 1745/46, Santo Antonio, Funchal, Madeira Island, Portugal; b. Unknown; d. Unknown. Generation No. 3 4. IGNACIA GOMES3 JARDIM (MARIA GOMES2, MANUEL GOMES1) was born July 22, 1714 in Santo Antonio, Funchal, Madeira Island, Portugal, and died Bef. February 09, 1782. She married MATTEUS PEREIRA DA SILVA June 22, 1733 in Santo Antonio, Funchal, Madeira Island, Portugal, son of MANUEL PEREIRA and PAULA DA SILVA. He was born 1701 in Santo Antonio, Funchal, Madeira Island, Portugal, and died Bef. February 09, 1782. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page ============================== Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. New content added every business day. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!

I leave Jardim as the last name mainly because at the time I started researching the program I used did not allow for long or double surnames. But another thing I do is I always add significant variations of the name to my program personal notes. The way I find the name spelled out on the marriage record is the way it stays on my program, and any other records if it is switched I add it to my notes like I said, or you can add it to the "also known as" area. Luis Beal Paulo Gomes Jardim <darwin@spamcop.net> wrote: Cece, These are the rules I'm using, which I got from my own experience: 1. The "De" particle, as in "de Freitas" or "dos Santos" shall never be included in the surname; 2. Patronimics, as in "Maria Rodrigues daugther of Rui Fernandes, son of Fern�o Dias" shall not be used as a surname, unless you're certain that it really has become a surname; 3. Always update the name to it's current version: No "Affon�os" or "Hyeronimos" shall remain. And specific to the point of this thread, 4. Include every (useful) version of the name as an alias, if your software allows that. For example, Maria, daugther of Jo�o Correia de Aguiar and Ana de Freitas can be known as Maria Correia, Maria de Aguiar, Maria Correia de Aguiar or Maria de Freitas. 5. Try to make the distintion between nicknames and surnames. In the case of the "Gomes Jardim" Gomes is a true surname, while Jardim seems to be a nickname. When it is passed to the descendancy it was always "Gomes Jardim" or "Gomes", but never or very rarely "Jardim". The same with the "Gomes Perneta". On these cases I use "Gomes Jardim" as a surname. On the other cases, of double surnames, I do as in point 4 and *never* use them combined. With a database of more than 60.000 names, I can tell you that it is working quite well. :) Paulo On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 07:21:46 -0600, Cece Camara wrote: > I was just wondering about how most of you deal with these in your family > tree program. > I am talking of course about the Fernades de Aguiars, or the Affonso da > Silvas or the Martins de Nobregas > etc etc... > > Do you use just the final surname as the last name or the conjoined > names as > the last name? > I can't decide which is the easier way to find these people. The most > frustrating thing > is that you will find them with just one surname on one record and a > conjoined surname on the next! > Then, how do you decide which one to use? > > I seem to be going back and forth depending on the name...but it's > getting > really diffucult > as my database is nearing 3000 names...and they are getting harder to > find! > > I guess I'd really like to know if there is a geneaological standard for > how > to record these names. > > Cece > > > > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page

She could have been barely pregnant when her husband died and still pregnant at the time she remarried :) Luis Beal Paulo Gomes Jardim <darwin@spamcop.net> wrote: I would like to add a small note here. Maria Gomes Jardim has to be born before 1722, as her mother Francisca Gomes Jardim had a second marriage at that date with Manuel Martins, being a widow. Paulo On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 01:22:19 -0500, Karen Forbes wrote: > 4. Joao Gomes Jardim was born abt. 1718 perhaps in Santo Antonio, > Funchal, Madeira. He married Maria Gomes Jardim February 13, 1742/43 in > Santo Antonio, Funchal, Madeira, daughter of Sebastino Jardim and > Francisca Jardim. She was born abt. 1723 perhaps in Santo Antonio, > Funchal, Madeira. -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!

I'm sorry I do not know, my lines so far are only in Madeira and the continent. But I did a quick search for some one else the other day and could not find anything like the ARM. You may want to subscribe to the Acores list and ask. Luis Beal Paulo Gomes Jardim <darwin@spamcop.net> wrote: Cece, Lu�s (and everyone else), Does Azores has any index of marriages as we have here on Madeira? I have some lines going to Azores that I'm treating for now as dead ends... :-| Paulo On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:03:26 -0600, Cece Camara wrote: > Mary, > The microfilms that you order from LDS have to be viewed at the LDS > library. > There are local ones all over the world. Where do you live...I'll be > happy > to look and see if there is one near you. > You must have a microfilm reader to view the microfilm...they have these > at > the local LDS centers...so no, it cannot be done at home. Here is the > link > to familysearch (the LDS website)...just look around, and don't be > afraid to > ask questions...we were all in your shoes at one time!! > Cece > www.familysearch.org -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Paulo and Karen: I don't see any immediate links to the Gomes Jardim names you mention. I do have a few in my family--maybe you will recognize them if you have more extensive information on the family. Below are 3 generations of Gomes Jardim. The first couple started out in Sao Roque in the late 1600s, and by the early 1700s, their children are in Santo Antonio. I am also interested in the wife of my earliest Gomes Jardim: In�cia Gomes Romam. Has anyone heard of this name (Romam?) in Sao Roque? I found there marriage date (1680) on the ARM website but haven't seen the actual record to get the names of both spouses' parents. Below are my meager records on this family: Descendants of Manuel Gomes Jardim Generation No. 1 1. MANUEL GOMES1 JARDIM was born Unknown in S�o Roque, Madeira Island, Portugal, and died Bef. February 11, 1721/22. He married IN�CIA GOMES ROMAM 1680 in S�o Roque, Madeira Island, Portugal. She was born Unknown in S�o Roque, Madeira Island, Portugal, and died Bef. February 11, 1721/22. Children of MANUEL JARDIM and IN�CIA ROMAM are: 2. i. MARIA GOMES2 JARDIM, b. Unknown, Sao Roque, Madeira Island, Portugal; d. Unknown. 3. ii. AGOSTINHO GOMES, b. Unknown; d. Unknown. Generation No. 2 2. MARIA GOMES2 JARDIM (MANUEL GOMES1) was born Unknown in Sao Roque, Madeira Island, Portugal, and died Unknown. She married (1) GASPAR RODRIGUES DE GOVEIA, son of MANUEL DE GOVEIA and MARIA REIS. He was born Unknown in Santo Antonio, Madeira Island, Portugal, and died Bef. February 11, 1721/22. She married (2) MANUEL MARTINS PEREIRA February 11, 1721/22 in Santo Antonio, Funchal, Madeira Island, Portugal, son of ANTONIO PEREIRA and MARIA FERNANDES. He was born 1668 in Santo Antonio, Funchal, Madeira Island, Portugal, and died Unknown. Children of MARIA JARDIM and GASPAR DE GOVEIA are: 4. i. IGNACIA GOMES3 JARDIM, b. July 22, 1714, Santo Antonio, Funchal, Madeira Island, Portugal; d. Bef. February 09, 1782. ii. HELENA JARDIM, b. October 22, 1716, Santo Antonio, Funchal, Madeira Island, Portugal; d. Unknown. 3. AGOSTINHO2 GOMES (MANUEL GOMES1 JARDIM) was born Unknown, and died Unknown. He married THOMASIA GOMES. She was born Unknown, and died Unknown. Child of AGOSTINHO GOMES and THOMASIA GOMES is: i. MANUEL GOMES3 JARDIM, b. Unknown; d. Unknown; m. MARIA JOSEFA, February 07, 1745/46, Santo Antonio, Funchal, Madeira Island, Portugal; b. Unknown; d. Unknown. Generation No. 3 4. IGNACIA GOMES3 JARDIM (MARIA GOMES2, MANUEL GOMES1) was born July 22, 1714 in Santo Antonio, Funchal, Madeira Island, Portugal, and died Bef. February 09, 1782. She married MATTEUS PEREIRA DA SILVA June 22, 1733 in Santo Antonio, Funchal, Madeira Island, Portugal, son of MANUEL PEREIRA and PAULA DA SILVA. He was born 1701 in Santo Antonio, Funchal, Madeira Island, Portugal, and died Bef. February 09, 1782. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page

Just thought I'd let y'all know the database is working again! Cece

I was just wondering about how most of you deal with these in your family tree program. I am talking of course about the Fernades de Aguiars, or the Affonso da Silvas or the Martins de Nobregas etc etc... Do you use just the final surname as the last name or the conjoined names as the last name? I can't decide which is the easier way to find these people. The most frustrating thing is that you will find them with just one surname on one record and a conjoined surname on the next! Then, how do you decide which one to use? I seem to be going back and forth depending on the name...but it's getting really diffucult as my database is nearing 3000 names...and they are getting harder to find! I guess I'd really like to know if there is a geneaological standard for how to record these names. Cece