Paulo: Was his name Jordan de Campos? Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paulo Gomes Jardim" <darwin@spamcop.net> To: <PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Nobrega - Canico > Yes, it does! > They are a well known family from Caniço. > One of my Biology teachers in highschool was from that family, and I > believe they are related to, or are themselves the owners of the bus > company of Caniço, which is one of my father's clients. > > Paulo > > On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:33:25 EST, <TARA1197@aol.com> wrote: > > > Hi Paulo and Cece, > > My great-aunt was married to a Luis Nobrega Chicharo from Canico, her > > name > > was Clarisse Goncalves de Freitas of Sao Martinho. They never had > > children. > > He was born 25 Aug 1906, I don't know his parents names or anything. > > Does > > that name ring bells for anyone?? > > Denise D'Antona > > -- > " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- > Horacio > > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >

Paulo: You may be correct about the Canico connection. The families of Camacha were very reverend and surely would have traveled to attend church. One of the de Nobrega members now is the owner of the Ratan factory there. They continue to live productively. The Biachi family had a summer resident in Salgados which is one kilometer from Camacha and were parishoners. Their home is now the resident of a Spanish order of priest and a nun who care for children from nonfunctional families from the Continent. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paulo Gomes Jardim" <darwin@spamcop.net> To: <PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Nobrega - Canico > Yes, it does! > They are a well known family from Caniço. > One of my Biology teachers in highschool was from that family, and I > believe they are related to, or are themselves the owners of the bus > company of Caniço, which is one of my father's clients. > > Paulo > > On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:33:25 EST, <TARA1197@aol.com> wrote: > > > Hi Paulo and Cece, > > My great-aunt was married to a Luis Nobrega Chicharo from Canico, her > > name > > was Clarisse Goncalves de Freitas of Sao Martinho. They never had > > children. > > He was born 25 Aug 1906, I don't know his parents names or anything. > > Does > > that name ring bells for anyone?? > > Denise D'Antona > > -- > " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- > Horacio > > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >

Michelle, Could it be that you got their names from Mateus Pereira da Silva marriage? The Manuel Ferreira de Gouveia & Maria dos Reis couple DO exist. They are featured on §3 of the mentioned Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy. And while Con. Menezes Vaz don't gives any Gaspar as their son, they had a son named Manuel Rodrigues de Gouveia, who married a Maria Rodrigues at 1698. This couple had a son named Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveia, married to Maria Gomes around 1730, this according to the R.G. genealogy. This couple, Gaspar & Maria, could easily be mistaken for the other Gaspar R. de Gouveia & Maria Gomes Jardim, *if they are not the same* in the end. These Gomes Jardim are starting to be a biiiig headache. :) Paulo On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:59:04 -0800 (PST), M B <mb_mhamid@yahoo.com> wrote: > Hi, Paulo. You ask a very good question: > "MB, how do you know that Gaspar Rodrigeus de Gouveia was son of Manuel > de Gouveia and Maria dos Reis? The Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy > assigns him to a different couple, Gaspar de Gouveia Pacheco and Maria > da Fonseca. If I well recall the record of the marriage between Gaspar > and Maria Gomes Jardim was in bad state, and I barely could read that he > had a former marriage with Sebastiana de Freitas, and don't recall any > reference to who his parents were." > > I will need to research this, and since I don't have a copy of the > record now, I assume I made some kind of error. I collected a lot of > this Madeira info when I went to Salt Lake City for a week back in 2000 > to do research. When I would go back to the hotel around 9 or 10 at > night (after 12-hour genealogy marathons), I would try to stay awake > long enough to put all the new information into my databases and > properly source everything. Because I was going so fast on this info, > I'm sure I have made some errors. Let me look at this and post later. > > Thanks! > > Michelle -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

On Tuesday 29 March 2005 03:04 am, Luis K W wrote: > Paulo, > Esclarece-me uma coisa. O que é um surname e um given name? É o mesmo que > apelido e nome próprio, não é? ><snip> Holy Cow! Those language tapes must be working! I understood some of that! ~J

Thanks Julie! I've not much hope about my Catarina, however. :) Paulo On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 21:03:13 EST, <BlueGoose6@aol.com> wrote: > I will ask on the Azores list. I have 16 Correia's and 6 Correa's. > Julie -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

Thanks John! That's what I feared. The Correia surname was also very widespread in Madeira already on early times. I'll consider purshasing some books on the Azorean families in teh future, as I'm finding a fair number of lines going there. There is a VERY interesting book on the Terceira families due to be published next December. The authors are Jorge Forjaz and António de Ornelas Mendes. However, with a price of 350 Euro, it's out of my budget, at least for now. But I'll ask the Museum if they are interested in acquiring it. [BTW, what do you mean with "small island"? We have more people here that all the 9 Azorean islands combined. ;)] Paulo On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:23:54 -0500, John Roias <jroias@rogers.com> wrote: > Correia is very prevalent in Sao Miguel and in some other Azorean > islands. Since you are looking for people before or about 1600, then you > will have to look to published books such as the one mentioned by Manuel > Furtado- that is Rodrigo Rodrigues. > I must admit, for such a small island, I am impressed at the number of > cultural works published in and about Madeira. > JR -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

Two, so far. On the child's records it simply says that everyone is from S. Martinho. As both of them have "Correia" as a surname, one would have empirically assumed that Catarina Correia is the source of that name. A closer look, however, would tell you that it was much more probably from her husband, Bartolomeu Pires, who was maternal grand son of the well known Correia & Andrade couple that gave origin to the family of that name mentioned on the Maderian nobiliaries. To reinforce this ideia comes the fact that the descendancy wildly used the "Correia de Andrade" surname, even if it wasn't their male lineage. The only place where Catarina Correia is mentioned as being a native from S. Miguel, Azores, is on her marriage record, but they failed to include there any reference to what her ancestry may have been. I've not looked the christening records yet. Paulo On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 16:56:03 -0800 (PST), Luis Beal <luisbeal@yahoo.com> wrote: > Well Paulo how many of her children's records have you looked up where > her place of birth may be written? Hopefully she had more than one child > and in one of her kids baptism (or marriage) records there may be a bit > more information that will be more useful. > Luis -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

I use the Legacy (v.5) software, and I'm very happy with it, indeed. I don't have to put any "/" to sepparate surnames from given names, it has a proper field for that, and also allows multiple AKAs, along with a very long list of other useful features. I suggest anyone starting now on these genealogy matters to have a look on their evaluation version and compare it to the other available software. Paulo On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:27:06 -0600, Cece Camara <cece@soccer4all.com> wrote: > Denise, I also use FTM (2005) and also enter my names with the > backsplashes -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

I only have Nobregas by affinity, to my knowledge, with the exception of the mythical Ourigo da Nóbrega, who lived on the 12th century and is said to be the ancestor of the Nobrega family. In any case, the Nobregas from Camacha are with all probability the same Nobregas that appear on Caniço. The two places are close to each other, and until some point on the 17th century, if I well recall, the people from Camacha had no church and had to use the one in Caniço. Paulo On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:03:49 -0800, Margaret <marpg2000@comcast.net> wrote: > Paulo, Cece and Denise: > Sorry that your de Nobrega family were not born in Camacha. There they > had > chldren who in turn became Medics, Electric Engineers, teachers, City > dignataries and one who was very important in Lorenzo Marques. So is was > well that they had these children who have and are contributing to the > welfare of the nations and the world. Lets see that is Brazill, U.S.A, > Portugal, and ofcourse Africa. > > Margaret -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

I would have to see that record to tell you with more certainity, but from what you say I suppose it is Joam (João). That name was then writen with the J looking like a Y (or was it a Y?), so you could easily mistake it for an F. Who was the mother of Maria, BTW? I don't believe she was Francisca Lourenço, unless she had a 3rd marriage that I'm not aware of... Manuel Lourenço and Maria Martins were my 11th great grand parents too. :) Paulo On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:53:04 -0600, Cece Camara <cece@soccer4all.com> wrote: > At least that's what I wrote down from a baptism record in Porto da Cruz > abt > 1605. > It says something like... > Maria, filha de foam....Francisca Lourenco, comadre Guiomar Lourenco.... > These two women are sisters, daughters of Manuel Lourenco & Maria Martins > (my 10th great grandparents...and Ed's too!!!). > > Can anyone tell me what this means? > > Cece -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

Yes, it does! They are a well known family from Caniço. One of my Biology teachers in highschool was from that family, and I believe they are related to, or are themselves the owners of the bus company of Caniço, which is one of my father's clients. Paulo On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:33:25 EST, <TARA1197@aol.com> wrote: > Hi Paulo and Cece, > My great-aunt was married to a Luis Nobrega Chicharo from Canico, her > name > was Clarisse Goncalves de Freitas of Sao Martinho. They never had > children. > He was born 25 Aug 1906, I don't know his parents names or anything. > Does > that name ring bells for anyone?? > Denise D'Antona -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 03:36:45 +0100, Paulo Gomes Jardim <darwin@spamcop.net> wrote: > Roque Ferreira de Carvalho as been traditionally assigned as a son of > João Ferreira Calaça and Ana Ferreira, whichdoesn't go well with ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Should read João Rodrigues Calaça. You'll note that on my chart that couple appears as Roque Ferreira de Carvalho great grand parents, just to remark the chronologic disparity. > chronology and Roque's surnames. -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

As promised, below is the chart with the supposed Baião line that appears on Stº António at mid 17th century, coming from Porto Santo. Roque Ferreira de Carvalho as been traditionally assigned as a son of João Ferreira Calaça and Ana Ferreira, which doesn't go well with chronology and Roque's surnames. He was instead, with all probability, brother of Manuel Ferreira de Carvalho, who married his wife's sister, Ana Lomelino. I advise you that the Netos/Calaças are a huge mess, mainly - I believe - because of lack of documentation due to the tragic events that affected Porto Santo, namely the pirate attacks. There's a chapter on the Calaças on "Famílias da Madeira e Porto Santo" that I inteend to xerox and compare with what I've got from Felisberto's notes, but I've not done this yet. Paulo +--- 7-Fernão de Baião,b.Cir 1470,d.??? | +--+ 6-Belchior de Baião,b.1500,d.??? | +--+ 5-Roque de Baião,d.??? | | | | +--+ 7-João Rodrigues Calaça,d.20 Sep 1537 | | | | +--+ 6-Genebra de Castro,b.Cir 1505,d.??? | | | +--+ 7-Ana Ferreira de Castro,b.Cir 1484,d.29 Nov 1564 | +--+ 4-Roque Ferreira de Carvalho,d.22 Aug 1630 | | | | +--+ 7-Gonçalo Ferreira de Carvalho , Fidalgo de Geração,b.Abt 1470,d.??? | | | | | +--+ 6-João Ferreira de Carvalho,d.??? | | | | | | | +--+ 7-Branca Afonso Drumond,b.Cir 1475,d.??? | | | | +--+ 5-Bárbara Ferreira,d.??? | | | | +--+ 7-Fernão Álvares de Agrela,d.Cir 1494 | | | | +--+ 6-Inês Álvares de Agrela,d.??? | +--+ 3-Duarte Teixeira de Carvalho,b.1594,d.??? | | | | +--+ 7-João Rodrigues Neto Calaça "o Velho", Escudeiro do Infante D. Diogo,b.Cir 1470,d.20 Sep 1537 | | | | | +--+ 6-João Rodrigues Calaça,d.20 Sep 1537 | | | | | | | +--+ 7-Maior do Canha,b.Cir 1472,d.??? | | | | | +--+ 5-Estêvão Calaça,b.Cir 1520,d.??? | | | | | | | | +--+ 7-Pedro de Castro,d.??? | | | | | | | | +--+ 6-Ana Ferreira de Castro,b.Cir 1484,d.29 Nov 1564 | | | | | | | +--+ 7-D. Mécia Ferreira,d.1563 | | | | +--+ 4-Maria Adão Lomelino,b.Cir 1552,d.??? | | | | +--+ 7-Giovan Baptista Lomellini,b.Cir 1450,d.??? | | | | | +--+ 6-Jorge Lomelino,b.Cir 1480,d.9 Dec 1548 | | | | +--+ 5-Ana Adão Lomelino,b.Cir 1522,d.??? | | | | +--+ 7-João Adão Ferreira "o Velho",b.Cir 1454,d.After 1512 | | | | +--+ 6-D. Maria Adão Ferreira,b.Cir 1490,d.??? | | | +--- 7-Leonor Gonçalves,b.Cir 1460,d.??? | +--+ 2-João de Carvalho da Gama e Mendonça,d.??? | | | | +--+ 7-Gonçalo Mendes de Vasconcelos "o Velho", Alcaide-Mor de Coimbra,b.1300,d.??? | | | | | +--+ 6-Gaspar Mendes de Vasconcelos,b.Cir 1438,d.??? | | | | | | | +--+ 7-Teresa Rodrigues Ribeiro,b.1300,d.??? | | | | | +--+ 5-Miguel Teixeira de Vasconcelos,b.Cir 1472,d.??? | | | | | | | | +--- 7-Tristão Vaz ,1º Capitão donatário de Machico,b.Cir 1390,d.1470 | | | | | | | | +--+ 6-Catarina Teixeira,b.Cir 1440,d.??? | | | | | | | +--- 7-D. Branca Teixeira,b.Cir 1405,d.??? | | | | | +--+ 4-Pedro Teixeira Ferreira,d.??? | | | | | | | | +--+ 7-Nuno Calaça , Escudeiro,b.1420,d.??? | | | | | | | | | +--+ 6-Rui Calaça Viveiros,b.Cir 1450,d.??? | | | | | | | | | | | +--+ 7-Maria Lopes,b.Cir 1427,d.??? | | | | | | | | +--+ 5-Ana Calaça,b.1482,d.??? | | | | | | | +--- 6-Ana Ferreira,d.??? | | | | +--+ 3-Ana Travassos Vasconcelos,d.??? | | | | +--+ 7-Gaspar Mendes de Vasconcelos,b.Cir 1438,d.??? | | | | | +--+ 6-Miguel Teixeira de Vasconcelos,b.Cir 1472,d.??? | | | | | | | +--+ 7-Catarina Teixeira,b.Cir 1440,d.??? | | | | | +--+ 5-Martim Mendes de Vasconcelos,b.Cir 1515,d.??? | | | | | | | | +--+ 7-Rui Calaça Viveiros,b.Cir 1450,d.??? | | | | | | | | +--+ 6-Ana Calaça,b.1482,d.??? | | | | | | | +--- 7-Ana Ferreira,d.??? | | | | +--+ 4-Isabel de Mendonça e Vasconcelos,b.Cir 1540,d.??? | | | | +--+ 7-Diogo Pires Lobo,b.Cir 1490,d.??? | | | | | +--+ 6-Diogo Pires Drumond,d.??? | | | | | | | +--+ 7-D. Andresa Gonçalves Drumond,b.Cir 1490,d.??? | | | | +--+ 5-D. Ana de Vasconcelos,b.Cir 1520,d.??? | | | | +--+ 7-Manuel Afonso Ferreira,b.Cir 1470,d.??? | | | | +--+ 6-D. Filipa de Vasconcelos,b.Cir 1500,d.??? | | | +--+ 7-D. Filipa de Vasconcelos,d.??? | --+ 1-Manuel da Silva de Mendonça,d.??? | | +--- 4-André Gonçalves de Távora,d.??? | | | +--+ 3-Manuel Tristão de Castro e Távora,b.Cir 1578,d.??? | | +--+ 2-D. Isabel da Silva,d.??? | | +--+ 7-Afonso Pires de Castro "da Charneca",b.Cir 1320,d.??? | | | +--+ 6-Diogo Gonçalves de Castro,b.Cir 1350,d.??? | | | | | +--- 7-Constança Esteves,b.Cir 1320,d.??? | | | +--+ 5-Diogo Fernandes de Castro,d.??? | | | | | +--- 6-Aldonça Coelho,b.Cir 1350,d.??? | | | +--+ 4-Manuel de Castro "o Velho",d.??? | | +--+ 3-Gracia de Castro,b.Cir 1580,d.??? | | +--+ 7-Fernão Neto , Senhor de Cuba,b.1414,d.??? | | | +--+ 6-Rodrigo Alves Neto,d.??? | | | | | +--- 7-D. Isabel de Aronega,d.??? | | | +--+ 5-João Rodrigues Neto Calaça "o Velho", Escudeiro do Infante D. Diogo,b.Cir 1470,d.20 Sep 1537 | | | | | | +--+ 7-Nuno Calaça , Escudeiro,b.1420,d.??? | | | | | | +--+ 6-Beatriz Rodrigues Calaça,b.Cir 1450,d.??? | | | | | +--+ 7-Maria Lopes,b.Cir 1427,d.??? | | +--+ 4-Ana Calaça,d.??? | | +--- 7-João de Ocanha , Escudeiro d’o Duque D. Diogo,d.??? | | | +--+ 6-Rui Pires de Ocanha,b.Cir 1450,d.After 30 May 1506 | | +--+ 5-Maior do Canha,b.Cir 1472,d.??? | | +--+ 7-Nuno Calaça , Escudeiro,b.1420,d.??? | | +--+ 6-Beatriz Rodrigues Calaça,b.Cir 1450,d.??? | +--+ 7-Maria Lopes,b.Cir 1427,d.??? -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

MB, Your Manuel is my André! He married Paula Gomes Jardim, daughter of Francisco de Gouveia and Francisca Gomes (Jardim). Parents of Josefa GOMES DA SILVA, who married Manuel rodrigues Gil at 26 aug 1715, Stº António. This couple were parents of Maria Gomes, who married Manuel Gomes Malho, from the Stº António GOMES MALHO family at 1739. Where have you seen his name wrote as "Manuel da Silva"? Could it be that you have mistaken his name while inserting him on teh databas, and that you actually *have* the information on his marriage, only under a different name? About the Baiões, there's a genealogy on NESOS, but it only features 3 generations on the direct line, and don't even mentions this individual, probably because he has been assigned to the wrong couple for a very long time (since HHN). This, of course, if my reconstruction is correct. I'll send it to the list, probably today, so you can check it and compare it to what is stated on the nobiliaries. I don't believe you'll have much luck looking for those individuals on the church books because they were from Porto Santo, and those books were burned by the Argelin pirates when they attacked the island on late 17th century. As for two widows marrying each other, and then the sons of former marriages marrying between themselves, you should ask Cece, she certainly knows a lot about those situations. ;) Paulo On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 09:50:05 -0800 (PST), M B <mb_mhamid@yahoo.com> wrote: > (Sorry! I get these emails in digest form, so I can't respond to > individual emails. ) > Paulo: > In an earlier, post you wrote "About Manuel Gomes da Silva..... he is > very probably another Baião, son of that Manuel da Silva and Inácia das > Neves (Romão), which we talked about in a recent post. That's the only > situation where I've seen Romão mixed up with Silva, and the chronology > is right on the spot. I don't know where the Gomes came from, but it > could have to do with the ancestry of Inácia das Neves, which is almost > unknown." > I do have a Manuel da Silva, son of Manuel da Silva and Ignacia das > Neves, but he married Paula Gomes (April 21, 1697, in Santo Antonio), > not Maria Gomes Jardim, as Karen noted in her post. Could this Manuel > have had two wives during his life? > Regarding the Andre da Silva Romao you mentioned (son of Manuel da Silva > and Inacia das Neves), can you please post some info on him? For some > reason, I didn't include anything about him in the Manuel and Inacia > family. I know I saw his marriage record at one point, because I > estimated Inacia's death date as "before April 21, 1697" based on his > marriage record on that date, stating she was deceased. Do you have the > book and page number for Andre's marriage record? Who did he marry? > --------- > Also, you mention the Baiao family of Porto Santo. Are any of these > records online? I won't have access to microfilms until this fall and > am just wondering if there is some place I can start online. > --------- > And to totally confuse myself and everyone else (my eyes are starting to > cross).... Both Manuel Martins Pereira and Maria Gomes Jardim were > married twice. Their children from their 1st marriages (obviously not > blood-related) ended up getting married. Does this make sense? Here is > what I have: > Manuel Martins Pereira m. Paula da Silva before 1701. > --> They had Mateus Pereira da Silva, born 1701. > Meanwhile, Maria Gomes Jardim m. Gaspar de Gouveia before 1714. > --> They had Inacia Gomes Jardim, born 1714. > I guess Paula da Silva (from couple 1 above) and Gaspar de Gouveia (from > couple 2) die. In 1722, Manuel Martins Pereira and Maria Gomes Jardim > get married. > Now the weird part happens: In 1733, their respective children, Mateus > Pereira da Silva marries Inacia Gomes Jardim. He would have been 32 and > she would have been 19. They would not have been half-siblings, since > they didn't share the same parents. But does this seem a bit weird? > I've never seen anything like this before. > > Thanks! > Michelle > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

Thanks for the info, MB. I didn't knew who were the parents of Paula da Silva, as I only had checked teh marriages of Maria and Josefa Pereira, and that info is not provided there. If Paula is also named as Paula Gomes, that makes even more probable that she was sister of Manuel Gomes da Silva/Romão. I don't know if "Neves" in this case is a surname or a given name. Sometimes given names appear also *after* the surname, which makes things difficult when inserting them on the database. Someone can be "Inácio Ferreira da Trindade", and here Ferreira is the surname and Trindade a given name. The same for Paula Gomes (das?) Neves. Nevertheless, there was at least one Stº António family that used Neves as a surname, the Fernandes Neves, who may be familiar to Denise d' Antona. It is possible that Inácia was from this family. You mention below a Mariana Rosa de Aguiar. I believe she was the one that had a second marriage with Pedro Pereira de Oliveira on 1730, being one of my direct lines, but this I'll have to confirm from that marriage record. Don't worry about the christening records, I'll eventually check them on the future, after I'm done with the marriages. About Inácio's full name, as a rule I never assign full names, nor even a surname, to individuals I only know about from christening records. They may have died at a very young age, and in that case they would not have a "full name" at all. Even if they lived longer, they may have chose a totally different surname from what we would have expected, and in that case assiging an imaginary surname would only add to the confusion of aliases. Paulo On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 08:48:12 -0800 (PST), M B <mb_mhamid@yahoo.com> wrote: > Hi, Paulo. At the end of your email, you asked how I know Paula is the > daughter of Manuel da Silva de Mendonca and Ignacia das Neves. I must > have made that exact connection through the marriage record of Mateus > Pereira da Silva (June 22, 1733, Santo Antonio), in which the following > individuals were names: > Antonio Martins Pereira > / > / > Manuel Martins > Pereira \ > / \ > / Maria Fernandes > / > / > Mateus Pereira > da Silva \ > \ > \ Manuel da Silva de Mendonca > \ / > \ / > Paula da Silva > \ > \ > Ignacia das Neves > I have noted in my records that, from Mateus's marriage record, the > paternal grandparents were Antonio Martins Pereira and Maria Fernandes, > and that the maternal grandfather was Manuel da Silva de Mendonca. For > some reason, I don't have Ignacia das Neves's name marked the same way > (as the maternal grandmother), but I think this is because I forgot to > source this one fact (her name) in my database along with the other > grandparents. > However, I do have noted in my records that she appeared as "Paula > Gomes" in her son Mateus's baptism record (Sept. 25, 1701, Santo > Antonio) and as "Paula Gomes Neves" in her daughter Mariana's baptism > record (March 26, 1703). Just from Mariana's birth record, one might > assume that she was the daughter of a "Neves." > Unfortunately, I did not make photocopies of these records, so I can't > look back at them now, and it will be many months before I have access > to microfilms again to verify. Had you not found that Paul da Silva was > the daughter of Manuel da Silva de Mendonca? It seemed that way from > your post. Please let me know if you have found some conflicting > information. > Regarding the children of Manuel Martins Pereira and Paula da Silva, you > mentioned Mateus (discussed above), as well as Maria Pereira (m. Pedro > Pereira de Oliveira, 1722) and Josefa Pereira (m. Antonio Fernandes > Rosa, 1726). According to my records, I have a total of 7 siblings (all > locations below are Santo Antonio): > 1. Mateus Pereira da Silva, b. 1701 > m. Ignacia Gomes Jardim, June 22, 1733 > 2. Mariana, b. 1703 > (I didn't find a marriage record for her. Could this be your Maria > Pereira?) > 3. Ignacio, b. March 7, 1706 > (From my "notes" section: I don't know what his complete name is, > as I only found him in the baptism records, but it could be Ignacio > Martins Pereira (based on the complete names of his brothers Antonio > Martins Pereira and Manuel Martins Pereira in their marriage records, or > it could be Ignacio Pereira da Silva, following the pattern of his older > brother Matteus Pereira da Silva and his sisters, as their names appears > in their marriage records.) > 4. Gregoria Pereira da Silva > m. Ignacio de Govea, Sept. 20, 1711 (and 2nd time: Francisco > Rodrigues, May 20, 1714) > 5. Josefa Pereira da Silva > m. Antonio Fernandes Rosa, Feb. 11, 1726 > 6. Antonio Martins Pereira > m. Mariana Rosa de Aguiar, Nov. 5, 1721 > 7. Manuel Martins Pereira > m. Ignacia Maria Jardim (didn't see the marriage records; got the > names from their children's baptism records) > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > > > ============================== > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. > New content added every business day. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx > -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

MB, how do you know that Gaspar Rodrigeus de Gouveia was son of Manuel de Gouveia and Maria dos Reis? The Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy assigns him to a different couple, Gaspar de Gouveia Pacheco and Maria da Fonseca. If I well recall the record of the marriage between Gaspar and Maria Gomes Jardim was in bad state, and I barely could read that he had a former marriage with Sebastiana de Freitas, and don't recall any reference to who his parents were. Paulo On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:12:57 -0800 (PST), M B <mb_mhamid@yahoo.com> wrote: > 2. MARIA GOMES2 JARDIM (MANUEL GOMES1) was born Unknown in Sao Roque, > Madeira Island, Portugal, and died Unknown. > She married (1) GASPAR RODRIGUES DE GOVEIA, son of MANUEL DE GOVEIA and > MARIA REIS. -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

At least that's what I wrote down from a baptism record in Porto da Cruz abt 1605. It says something like... Maria, filha de foam....Francisca Lourenco, comadre Guiomar Lourenco.... These two women are sisters, daughters of Manuel Lourenco & Maria Martins (my 10th great grandparents...and Ed's too!!!). Can anyone tell me what this means? Cece

LOL Cece -----Original Message----- From: Paulo Gomes Jardim [mailto:darwin@spamcop.net] Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 8:20 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Manuel da Silva (son of Manuel da Silva and Ignacia das Neves); Baiao family MB, Your Manuel is my André! He married Paula Gomes Jardim, daughter of Francisco de Gouveia and Francisca Gomes (Jardim). Parents of Josefa GOMES DA SILVA, who married Manuel rodrigues Gil at 26 aug 1715, Stº António. This couple were parents of Maria Gomes, who married Manuel Gomes Malho, from the Stº António GOMES MALHO family at 1739. Where have you seen his name wrote as "Manuel da Silva"? Could it be that you have mistaken his name while inserting him on teh databas, and that you actually *have* the information on his marriage, only under a different name? About the Baiões, there's a genealogy on NESOS, but it only features 3 generations on the direct line, and don't even mentions this individual, probably because he has been assigned to the wrong couple for a very long time (since HHN). This, of course, if my reconstruction is correct. I'll send it to the list, probably today, so you can check it and compare it to what is stated on the nobiliaries. I don't believe you'll have much luck looking for those individuals on the church books because they were from Porto Santo, and those books were burned by the Argelin pirates when they attacked the island on late 17th century. As for two widows marrying each other, and then the sons of former marriages marrying between themselves, you should ask Cece, she certainly knows a lot about those situations. ;) Paulo On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 09:50:05 -0800 (PST), M B <mb_mhamid@yahoo.com> wrote: > (Sorry! I get these emails in digest form, so I can't respond to > individual emails. ) > Paulo: > In an earlier, post you wrote "About Manuel Gomes da Silva..... he is > very probably another Baião, son of that Manuel da Silva and Inácia das > Neves (Romão), which we talked about in a recent post. That's the only > situation where I've seen Romão mixed up with Silva, and the chronology > is right on the spot. I don't know where the Gomes came from, but it > could have to do with the ancestry of Inácia das Neves, which is almost > unknown." > I do have a Manuel da Silva, son of Manuel da Silva and Ignacia das > Neves, but he married Paula Gomes (April 21, 1697, in Santo Antonio), > not Maria Gomes Jardim, as Karen noted in her post. Could this Manuel > have had two wives during his life? > Regarding the Andre da Silva Romao you mentioned (son of Manuel da Silva > and Inacia das Neves), can you please post some info on him? For some > reason, I didn't include anything about him in the Manuel and Inacia > family. I know I saw his marriage record at one point, because I > estimated Inacia's death date as "before April 21, 1697" based on his > marriage record on that date, stating she was deceased. Do you have the > book and page number for Andre's marriage record? Who did he marry? > --------- > Also, you mention the Baiao family of Porto Santo. Are any of these > records online? I won't have access to microfilms until this fall and > am just wondering if there is some place I can start online. > --------- > And to totally confuse myself and everyone else (my eyes are starting to > cross).... Both Manuel Martins Pereira and Maria Gomes Jardim were > married twice. Their children from their 1st marriages (obviously not > blood-related) ended up getting married. Does this make sense? Here is > what I have: > Manuel Martins Pereira m. Paula da Silva before 1701. > --> They had Mateus Pereira da Silva, born 1701. > Meanwhile, Maria Gomes Jardim m. Gaspar de Gouveia before 1714. > --> They had Inacia Gomes Jardim, born 1714. > I guess Paula da Silva (from couple 1 above) and Gaspar de Gouveia (from > couple 2) die. In 1722, Manuel Martins Pereira and Maria Gomes Jardim > get married. > Now the weird part happens: In 1733, their respective children, Mateus > Pereira da Silva marries Inacia Gomes Jardim. He would have been 32 and > she would have been 19. They would not have been half-siblings, since > they didn't share the same parents. But does this seem a bit weird? > I've never seen anything like this before. > > Thanks! > Michelle > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio ============================== Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. New content added every business day. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx

Hi, Paulo. You ask a very good question: "MB, how do you know that Gaspar Rodrigeus de Gouveia was son of Manuel de Gouveia and Maria dos Reis? The Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy assigns him to a different couple, Gaspar de Gouveia Pacheco and Maria da Fonseca. If I well recall the record of the marriage between Gaspar and Maria Gomes Jardim was in bad state, and I barely could read that he had a former marriage with Sebastiana de Freitas, and don't recall any reference to who his parents were." I will need to research this, and since I don't have a copy of the record now, I assume I made some kind of error. I collected a lot of this Madeira info when I went to Salt Lake City for a week back in 2000 to do research. When I would go back to the hotel around 9 or 10 at night (after 12-hour genealogy marathons), I would try to stay awake long enough to put all the new information into my databases and properly source everything. Because I was going so fast on this info, I'm sure I have made some errors. Let me look at this and post later. Thanks! Michelle --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page

I want to thank EVERYONE for their input on my question. You have all reassured me that my way is just as good as any!!! My overall process seems to be closest to Paulos...except I haven't been using the AKA's nearly enough. Denise, I also use FTM (2005) and also enter my names with the backsplashes as you do...so they show up in the correct places in the name list. In starting to use the AKA field though, I realize that it doesn't give places for multiple AKA's, I have to just put them all together, separated by colons. I also didn't realize I could customize it as you did. Where exactly did you put this tab and is there any way to access the names in your tab in the reporting. Do the AKA's show up in the name list? I'd appreciate knowing a little more about this. Thank you all! Cece -----Original Message----- From: TARA1197@aol.com [mailto:TARA1197@aol.com] Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 3:14 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Re: Double surnames... Hi Cece and Paulo, In my tree which has over 13,000 names now, I do use the double surname if it was truly used that way. In my family, the name Goncalves de Freitas has been used just that way, and that is how I record it in my file. However, in the same family I also have wonem that married in and were de Freitas...These are recorded as Freitas only. Actually, I use Family Tree Maker and there is a function that I use. I put in a name like this: Maria Joaquina de \Freitas\. By putting in the backslashes it separates de from Freitas, so when I go into the imdex to look for this person it would be found under Freitas. And Paulo made an interesting point on bringing the names into current status. Previously, I was using Manoel for Manuel, Anna for Ana etc. I have recently started to modernize the names, making Roza, Rosa. I think that is a good way to keep the files. Also on Family Tree Maker, I added a tab called Name Variation, in that place I list all of the alias' as Paulo mentioned. It just makes it easier to keep track of. Hope that helps! Denise D'Antona In a message dated 3/26/2005 11:33:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, darwin@spamcop.net writes: Cece, These are the rules I'm using, which I got from my own experience: 1. The "De" particle, as in "de Freitas" or "dos Santos" shall never be included in the surname; 2. Patronimics, as in "Maria Rodrigues daugther of Rui Fernandes, son of Fernão Dias" shall not be used as a surname, unless you're certain that it really has become a surname; 3. Always update the name to it's current version: No "Affonços" or "Hyeronimos" shall remain. And specific to the point of this thread, 4. Include every (useful) version of the name as an alias, if your software allows that. For example, Maria, daugther of João Correia de Aguiar and Ana de Freitas can be known as Maria Correia, Maria de Aguiar, Maria Correia de Aguiar or Maria de Freitas. 5. Try to make the distintion between nicknames and surnames. In the case of the "Gomes Jardim" Gomes is a true surname, while Jardim seems to be a nickname. When it is passed to the descendancy it was always "Gomes Jardim" or "Gomes", but never or very rarely "Jardim". The same with the "Gomes Perneta". On these cases I use "Gomes Jardim" as a surname. On the other cases, of double surnames, I do as in point 4 and *never* use them combined. With a database of more than 60.000 names, I can tell you that it is working quite well. :) Paulo On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 07:21:46 -0600, Cece Camara <cece@soccer4all.com> wrote: > I was just wondering about how most of you deal with these in your family > tree program. > I am talking of course about the Fernades de Aguiars, or the Affonso da > Silvas or the Martins de Nobregas > etc etc... > > Do you use just the final surname as the last name or the conjoined > names as > the last name? > I can't decide which is the easier way to find these people. The most > frustrating thing > is that you will find them with just one surname on one record and a > conjoined surname on the next! > Then, how do you decide which one to use? > > I seem to be going back and forth depending on the name...but it's > getting > really diffucult > as my database is nearing 3000 names...and they are getting harder to > find! > > I guess I'd really like to know if there is a geneaological standard for > how > to record these names. > > Cece > > > > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx ============================== Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx