Hi Paulo, I would love to see these pictures of Funchal. Can you try and flip them to me. Thanks eusebio da silva corriea ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paulo Gomes Jardim" <darwin@spamcop.net> To: <PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:26 PM Subject: [PRT-MADEIRA] Old Funchal Pictures > Hi, > > Today my sister forwarded me a set of old pictures (daguerreotipes) from > Funchal, most of them from the XIX century, which may interest you as they > depict the city as it was at the time the madeira exiles left for the New > World. > > They include: > > 1. Funchal West (Stª Catarina) and the old port. The "pontinha" still > doesn't exist here. > 2. The old seaside boulevard, as viewed from Stª Catarina, including the > "Pilar de Banger" and the old beach. > 3. Funchal West, beach side, as viewed from the "cais". > 4. Largo de S. Tiago and begining of Stª Maria street, where it is today > the "Barreirinha beach" entrance. We can view Funchal city and the port in > the behind. > 5. Campo da Barca, during a celebration. We can see some public > transportation, perhaps the "American cars". > 6. The arrival of sugar canes to the old Hinton sugar mill, on what it is > today 31 Janeiro street. > 7. Pico's castle and St John. > 8. Another sugar cane delivery picture, this time at Largo do Torreão. > 9. Old city entrance. To the left there is St. Lawrence palace, the > governor housing and main city fort, and to the right we can see the old > Golden Gate cafe (which had another name, Kit Kat's or something, at the > time) > 10. St. Lawrence Palace and the Queen's Square, as seen from the East. > 11. The Largo do Colégio with the Jesuit church. The palace on the extreme > right has been demolished since then, and that's where the Justice Palace > is now located. > 12. Largo do Colégio on the late 30's, early 40's of 20th century. > 13. Largo do Chafariz as it was on the 19th century. On the street we can > see the trails of the "American car". > > I can forward then to anyone interested, but be aware that they are about > 2.5 megabytes on size. > In case you are interested just ask me to my personal mail (the one I'm > using to post this message). > > Paulo > > > -- > " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- > Horacio > > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > >

Just curious if anyone has heard of this person. Supposedly married to Dona Isabel de Vasconcellos abt 1600 or so. He is listed as a parent on the wedding of his daughter Dona Isabel de Velosa to Henrique de Bettencourt Correa. Problem is I have found in the "Texeiras of Tristao Vaz" genealogy...they show this Dona Isabel that married Henrique is the daughter of Francisco de Velosa de Vasconcellos & Dona Isabel de Vasconcellos..whom I also have in my database. Are Francisco and Goncalo the same person...or is my record wrong...or is the genealogy wrong...? Just thought it might be worth throwing out there!!! Hope everyone is doing well...sure has been quiet out there! Cece

I must correct something I wrote here on the Jardim name and its usage. I said that Jardim became appended to a surname -- and then might entirely replace the surname. Actually, it has ordinarily remained a THIRD name, as in Domingos Goncalves Jardim. Third names, usually descriptives, were common (sometimes there was even a fourth name). Standard names are Goncalves Jardim, Rodrigues Jardim, Sousa Jardim, Gomes Jardim, etc.

I have tracked the Jardim name back as much as possible, to 1400s or some point in what might be called Madeira's pre-recorded history (in terms of baptisms and weddings). It's a sure thing that it was adopted from a place of that name, near Calheta. It's not unlikely that one of the first to become identified as such was, perhaps, a Goncalves. Jardim became a third name, and on occasion it stuck as the identifying surname -- and Goncalves, or whatever, was lost. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cece Camara" <cece@soccer4all.com> To: <PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 6:25 AM Subject: [PRT-MADEIRA] Jardim surname >I know there has been some discussion here in the past of the origins of >the > name Jardim. > I'd just like to note that I just came across a marriage record from 1632 > in > Porto da Cruz > between Manuel Simoes & Luzia Barreto. > It states Manuels parents are Domingos Goncalves Jardim & Simoa Dias, > natural of Lisboa. > Figured it was worth a mention... > Cece > > > > > ============================== > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. > New content added every business day. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx >

I know there has been some discussion here in the past of the origins of the name Jardim. I'd just like to note that I just came across a marriage record from 1632 in Porto da Cruz between Manuel Simoes & Luzia Barreto. It states Manuels parents are Domingos Goncalves Jardim & Simoa Dias, natural of Lisboa. Figured it was worth a mention... Cece

I am looking for descendants of the family of Fernandes Almeida (wife's name unknown). Fernandes had a daughter Maria Alice who was a child in 1917. THere was also possibly a son Manuel. I know little about them other than that they lived in Funchal in 1917 and were friends of my grandparents. Does this family name ring any bells with anyone?

In my last message here re the book that lists the names of early Madeiran settlers, I did not correctly identify the publishing house involved. That company is Max Niemeyer Verlag, of Tubingen, Germany. The book is one of a series published under the general title Patronymica Romanica. I should note, additionally, that the four cases of people cited as Jardim actually are cited as "do Jardim" (in two cases, "do Jardym"), clearly evidencing the place-name derivation involved here.

For all on the Madeira List, especially Pat Corbera Silva and Sue Muscate -- Sue mentioned in a recent e-mail message to me her desire to put together a history of the Jardim roots on Madeira, for her next family reunion. I've been digging at the roots, too, but have lately decided that they're lost to history. One thing is certain: the name arose on Madeira as a toponym, a place name, of uncertain beginnings, as Luis de Sousa Mello suggested to my sister when she talked with him in Funchal some years ago. This seems to be the view as well of Paulo Gomes Jardim, and my research leans that way, too. My own guess is that somebody named Rodrigues, or perhaps Goncalves, or whoever, settled in the Calheta area fairly early on, one of the many continental opportunists looking to tap into the bustling sugar enterprise, and in the process he reinvented himself - Madeira was that kind of place. As so-and-so from such-and-such place, he eventually saw the "do Jardim" appellation subsuming his proper surname. I sense a Jardim connection with Estreito da Calheta and its prominent de França (another reinvention) family (of Polish-French origin) as perhaps most significant as catalyst. A helpful source is Antroponímia primitiva da Madeira e Reportório onomàstico histórico da Madeira (séculos XV e XVI), published in 1999 by a German firm, Tubingen. It lists the early Madeira names and touches on other historical matters as well - where the settlers came from (an old point of contention), names and how they became modified, designations for slaves and other imported labor, etc. It will not be easy to find -- I consulted the volume at the New York Public Library. The chief author is Naidea Nunes Nunes.

I have a question for those of you who speak Portuguese. While translating a copy of my grandmother's birth certificate I came across something that I understand can have multiple meanings. Her godfather is listed as Bacharel Jose Joaquim de Freitas. I know that bacharel can mean batchelor. I know it can also mean someone who has earned a degree in a field like Law or Economics. My question is what would be the meaning in this context? Would it be like a title? The time frame is 1883. Thank you all in advance. Mary da Silva Frost

Denise, Chicharo *as a name* is new to me. - Chicharo is a vegetable (a leguminosae - sometimes the English language looks more to Latin than Portuguese, doesn't it?). - Chicharro is a kind of sardine (carapau). - And we also have Chichorro... our king Afonso III had an illegitimate son called Martim Afonso. His nickname was "Chichorro" (meaning "little one" - pequenino) and remained as a family name for some generations. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- > From: TARA1197@aol.com > Hi Paulo, > > Is Chicharo a surname or an alcunha?? The name was used as Luis Nobrega > Chicharo, but I have never heard of Chicharo before. > > Denise

Cece, N.F.P. by F. Gayo is not available on-line... yet. This great work has about a dozen books. "1831" is the year F.Gayo died. My guess is Gayo learned the Family history of all those families from the descendants of those families and from the works by other genealogists like: · D. Antonio Caetano de Souza [1674-1759], · Manuel de Souza da Silva [fins do séc. XVII], · Antonio de Villas Boas e Sampaio [1629-1701], · Cristóvão Alão de Morais [1632-1693] . Manso de Lima, Famílias de Portugal-1749 . Henriques de Noronha, Nobiliário da Ilha da Madeira-1700 · Marquês de Montebello [1595-1662], · Frei D. Antonio Brandão [1584-1637], · João Batista Lavanha [1555-1624], · Gaspar Fructuoso [1551-1591], · D. Antonio de Lima Pereira [-1582], · Damião de Góis [1502-1574], · Livro Velho III [1360-1365], · Conde D. Pedro [entre 1340 e 1344], · Livro Antigo de Linhagens [c.1343], · Livro Velho II [séc. XIII], · Livro Velho I [1280-1320]. You may not believe this, but I had the original book handwritten by Damiao de Gois on my hands a couple of years ago. Francisco Doria prefers to see by himself the original documents (wills, sale and purchase of real estate, royal grants, etc.). He "made me" find for him some documents that were supposed to have never exist. However, there they were, for anyone to find them, in the National Archive (Torre do Tombo) in Lisbon. ---------- > From: Cece Camara > Date: Sábado, 2 de Abril de 2005 15:43 > > I agree that it would be great if we could all try to remember to mention > our sources. > Very often, it might open our eyes to a new source we weren't even aware > existed (for instance NFP is new to ME!!...is it online anywhere??). > And one more thing, this may sound like a really stupid question...but where > do the > people that write these history books such as this, written in 1831 > (I'm assuming thats what you mean?) get their info from. I assume there > are also some kinds of sources in their books... > and then again where does Francisco Doria, the Brazilian expect, get his > info to dispute that info???? > I'm sorry to be a pain...I just LOVE actual records that PROVE what you need > to know!!! > Well...usually they prove what you need to know...most of the time anyway!! > :-) > Cece > > -----Original Message-----

As I am researching 1500-1600's...I am reaching the last of my traceable Madeiran ancestors at a record pace all of a sudden. Can't find any of their marriages. I have a couple of unusal (for me at least) ancestral names I would like to throw out there and see if any stick...maybe I can pick up a new lead in a new place. Francisco Martins Marcante & Catherina Rodrigues - married c 1565 (children Canico) Goncalo Pires Torres & Leonor Marques - married c 1515 (child Canico) Alvaro de Abreu & Maria de Almeida - married c 1575 (children in Porto da Cruz) Goncalo Pires & Madallena Goncalves - married c 1520 (children in Canico) Joao Goudinho & Catherine de Andrade - marriage c 1625 (child Canico) Affonso Leal & Catherina Ribeira - marriage c 1670 (child Porto da Cruz) These are just a few of the dozens of dead ends I am looking at right now. It appears a lot of the first Porto da Cruz people came from Faial... I haven't firgured out any pattern for the early Canico's yet as I have not worked that film as much as the Porto da Cruz. Thanks! Cece

Yes, it's from genealogy and history books, Cece. :-) Take, for instance, Nobiliario das Familias de Portugal (NFP) by Felgueiras Gayo (+1831). It may *not* be always interely correct, but it gives you a good idea of the real thing. In the chapter on the "Perestrelo" (or Pestrelo) from Lombardia, Gayo writes: « N 3 BARTOLOMEU PESTRELO filho de Felipe Pestrelo (N2) foi Fidalgo da Casa do Infante D. João, filho do Rei D. João I, o qual pelo dito Infante conhecer o seu juízo o mandou povoar a Ilha do Porto Santo, e depois a da Madeira. Casou com Catarina ou Brites Furtado de Mendonça. 4 D. Isabel ou Helena Pestrelo m.er de Pedro Correia Cap.am da Ilha da Graciosa filho de Gonçalo Correia Sr. de Farelaens no titº. de Correias §90N10. 4 Catarina Furtado m.er de Mem Rodrigues de Vasconcelos fº. de Martim Mendes de Vasconcelos c.g. no ttº. de Vasconcelos §8N13. 4 Brites Furtado Casou 2ª vez Bartolomeu Pestrelo com Isabel Moniz irmã de Garcia Moniz no ttº. de Monizes. 4 Bartolomeu Pestrelo 4 Felipa Moniz m.er de Cristóvão Colon descobridor e o 1º Almirante das Índias Orientais Progenitor dos Duques de Veraguas. N 4 BARTOLOMEU PESTRELO fº. de Bartolomeu Pestrelo N 3. Foi Cap.am da Ilha do Porto Santo. Casou com Guiomar Teixeira filha de Tristão Vaz 1º Cap.am do Machico, e Branca Teixeira sua m.er no ttº. de Teixeiras §64N1, ainda que naquele ttº. se dizia ser seu neto João Teixeira. 5 Bartolomeu Pestrelo N 5 BARTOLOMEU PESTRELO fº. de Bartolomeu Pestrelo N4. Foi 3º. Cap.am da Ilha de Porto Santo. Casou duas vezes a 1ª com Aldonça Delgado filha de Gracia Rodrigues da Câmara (fº. de João Gonçalves Zarco 1º Cap.am e descobridor da Ilha da Madeira) e sua m.er Violante de Freitas no ttº. de Câmaras §9N2. 6 Gracia Pestrelo Casou 2ª vez Bartolomeu Pestrelo com D. Iolanda Teixeira sua tia, filha de Tristão Vaz 1º Cap.am do Machico, e Branca Teixeira acima os filhos desta m.er foram julgados bastardos por matar a 1ª para casar com esta, ttº. de Teixeiras §64N1. 6 Manuel Pestrelo s.g. 6 Jerónimo Pestrelo casado com D. Elvira filha de Cristóvão Martins de Grado ou Graudo um homem nobre e rico da Ilha. 6 D. Francisca Pestrelo m.er de João Rodrigues Colaço homem principal, e rico da Ilha do Porto Santo » Not everybody agrees with this line. Francisco Doria, our brazilian expert in portugal-gen (a yahoo list), finds many errors. He says, for instance that the wife of Pedro Correia (or Pedro Correia da Cunha) was Brites de Mendonça Furtada (dau. of Bartolomeu Perestrelo), and not «4. D. Isabel ou Helena Pestrelo» (see above). I think we all should mention the source when we write "i have..." (as in: «I have seen her as Isabel Gil Moniz as well»). We should always write WHERE we found that data. Sometimes it's from a some page in the net with nothing to support what is written. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- > From: Cece Camara > Date: Sábado, 2 de Abril de 2005 4:35 > > Just curious where you guys got your info from? To my knowledge, actual > records don't go back that far...so I'm guessing we are all relying on books > or others online databases...and who knows where they came from? But if I'm wrong...please tell me!!! > I have been working off the HHN records which state that Bartholmeu > Perestrello was married three times...the third time to Dona Isabel Monis, > daughter of Vasco Martins Monis & Dona Beatriz Vaz Ferreira. Having said > that, I've already found at least 2 factual errors with the HHN works (in my tree alone)... so I don't know how much credence I give to that either! > Please let me know if there is something you know that I don't! > Cece

I agree that it would be great if we could all try to remember to mention our sources. Very often, it might open our eyes to a new source we weren't even aware existed (for instance NFP is new to ME!!...is it online anywhere??). And one more thing, this may sound like a really stupid question...but where do the people that write these history books such as this, written in 1831 (I'm assuming thats what you mean?) get their info from. I assume there are also some kinds of sources in their books... and then again where does Francisco Doria, the Brazilian expect, get his info to dispute that info???? I'm sorry to be a pain...I just LOVE actual records that PROVE what you need to know!!! Well...usually they prove what you need to know...most of the time anyway!! :-) Cece -----Original Message----- From: Luis K W [mailto:luis_k_w@clix.pt] Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 5:02 AM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Perestrello/Moniz Yes, it's from genealogy and history books, Cece. :-) Take, for instance, Nobiliario das Familias de Portugal (NFP) by Felgueiras Gayo (+1831). It may *not* be always interely correct, but it gives you a good idea of the real thing. In the chapter on the "Perestrelo" (or Pestrelo) from Lombardia, Gayo writes: « N 3 BARTOLOMEU PESTRELO filho de Felipe Pestrelo (N2) foi Fidalgo da Casa do Infante D. João, filho do Rei D. João I, o qual pelo dito Infante conhecer o seu juízo o mandou povoar a Ilha do Porto Santo, e depois a da Madeira. Casou com Catarina ou Brites Furtado de Mendonça. 4 D. Isabel ou Helena Pestrelo m.er de Pedro Correia Cap.am da Ilha da Graciosa filho de Gonçalo Correia Sr. de Farelaens no titº. de Correias §90N10. 4 Catarina Furtado m.er de Mem Rodrigues de Vasconcelos fº. de Martim Mendes de Vasconcelos c.g. no ttº. de Vasconcelos §8N13. 4 Brites Furtado Casou 2ª vez Bartolomeu Pestrelo com Isabel Moniz irmã de Garcia Moniz no ttº. de Monizes. 4 Bartolomeu Pestrelo 4 Felipa Moniz m.er de Cristóvão Colon descobridor e o 1º Almirante das Índias Orientais Progenitor dos Duques de Veraguas. N 4 BARTOLOMEU PESTRELO fº. de Bartolomeu Pestrelo N 3. Foi Cap.am da Ilha do Porto Santo. Casou com Guiomar Teixeira filha de Tristão Vaz 1º Cap.am do Machico, e Branca Teixeira sua m.er no ttº. de Teixeiras §64N1, ainda que naquele ttº. se dizia ser seu neto João Teixeira. 5 Bartolomeu Pestrelo N 5 BARTOLOMEU PESTRELO fº. de Bartolomeu Pestrelo N4. Foi 3º. Cap.am da Ilha de Porto Santo. Casou duas vezes a 1ª com Aldonça Delgado filha de Gracia Rodrigues da Câmara (fº. de João Gonçalves Zarco 1º Cap.am e descobridor da Ilha da Madeira) e sua m.er Violante de Freitas no ttº. de Câmaras §9N2. 6 Gracia Pestrelo Casou 2ª vez Bartolomeu Pestrelo com D. Iolanda Teixeira sua tia, filha de Tristão Vaz 1º Cap.am do Machico, e Branca Teixeira acima os filhos desta m.er foram julgados bastardos por matar a 1ª para casar com esta, ttº. de Teixeiras §64N1. 6 Manuel Pestrelo s.g. 6 Jerónimo Pestrelo casado com D. Elvira filha de Cristóvão Martins de Grado ou Graudo um homem nobre e rico da Ilha. 6 D. Francisca Pestrelo m.er de João Rodrigues Colaço homem principal, e rico da Ilha do Porto Santo » Not everybody agrees with this line. Francisco Doria, our brazilian expert in portugal-gen (a yahoo list), finds many errors. He says, for instance that the wife of Pedro Correia (or Pedro Correia da Cunha) was Brites de Mendonça Furtada (dau. of Bartolomeu Perestrelo), and not «4. D. Isabel ou Helena Pestrelo» (see above). I think we all should mention the source when we write "i have..." (as in: «I have seen her as Isabel Gil Moniz as well»). We should always write WHERE we found that data. Sometimes it's from a some page in the net with nothing to support what is written. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- > From: Cece Camara > Date: Sábado, 2 de Abril de 2005 4:35 > > Just curious where you guys got your info from? To my knowledge, actual > records don't go back that far...so I'm guessing we are all relying on books > or others online databases...and who knows where they came from? But if I'm wrong...please tell me!!! > I have been working off the HHN records which state that Bartholmeu > Perestrello was married three times...the third time to Dona Isabel Monis, > daughter of Vasco Martins Monis & Dona Beatriz Vaz Ferreira. Having said > that, I've already found at least 2 factual errors with the HHN works (in my tree alone)... so I don't know how much credence I give to that either! > Please let me know if there is something you know that I don't! > Cece ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

Just curious where you guys got your info from? To my knowledge, actual records don't go back that far...so I'm guessing we are all relying on books or others online databases...and who knows where they came from? But if I'm wrong...please tell me!!! I have been working off the HHN records which state that Bartholmeu Perestrello was married three times...the third time to Dona Isabel Monis, daughter of Vasco Martins Monis & Dona Beatriz Vaz Ferreira. Having said that, I've already found at least 2 factual errors with the HHN works (in my tree alone)... so I don't know how much credence I give to that either! Please let me know if there is something you know that I don't! Cece -----Original Message----- From: TARA1197@aol.com [mailto:TARA1197@aol.com] Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 1:48 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Perestrello/Moniz Thanks for your help Julie, I'm sure there are so many Isabel Monizes out there!! I have seen her as Isabel Gil Moniz as well... Denise In a message dated 4/1/2005 2:20:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, BlueGoose6@aol.com writes: I have Isabel Gil Moniz married to B, Perestrello in my lineage. It does not list her parents. However, I do also have Isabel Moniz whose father was Goncalo Moniz Barreto and her mother was Maria Fernandes Sanches. She was not married to Bartolomeu Perestrello. She was married to Christovan Martins. I also have another Isabel Moniz. If you like more information on the last one, I can provide that to you. Sorry I could not help with the first one's parents. Julie Gerren ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx

Thanks for your help Julie, I'm sure there are so many Isabel Monizes out there!! I have seen her as Isabel Gil Moniz as well... Denise In a message dated 4/1/2005 2:20:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, BlueGoose6@aol.com writes: I have Isabel Gil Moniz married to B, Perestrello in my lineage. It does not list her parents. However, I do also have Isabel Moniz whose father was Goncalo Moniz Barreto and her mother was Maria Fernandes Sanches. She was not married to Bartolomeu Perestrello. She was married to Christovan Martins. I also have another Isabel Moniz. If you like more information on the last one, I can provide that to you. Sorry I could not help with the first one's parents. Julie Gerren

I have Isabel Gil Moniz married to B, Perestrello in my lineage. It does not list her parents. However, I do also have Isabel Moniz whose father was Goncalo Moniz Barreto and her mother was Maria Fernandes Sanches. She was not married to Bartolomeu Perestrello. She was married to Christovan Martins. I also have another Isabel Moniz. If you like more information on the last one, I can provide that to you. Sorry I could not help with the first one's parents. Julie Gerren

Hello all, I know there are many conflicting stories on this family, but does anyone know: 1. Who the parents of Isabel Moniz, wife of Bartolomeu Perestrello were? 2. Was her name Isabel Moniz or Isabel Moniz Barreto? I found a genealogy on-line that lists her parents as Vasco Martim Moniz de Meneses (or Vasco Martins Meneses) and Brites Vaz Ferreira and I was just wondering how accurate that is. I thought that her parents have not been definitively identified. Denise D'Antona

Hi Paulo, Is Chicharo a surname or an alcunha?? The name was used as Luis Nobrega Chicharo, but I have never heard of Chicharo before. Denise In a message dated 3/28/2005 9:54:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, darwin@spamcop.net writes: Yes, it does! They are a well known family from Caniço. One of my Biology teachers in highschool was from that family, and I believe they are related to, or are themselves the owners of the bus company of Caniço, which is one of my father's clients. Paulo

Paulo, Esclarece-me uma coisa. O que � um surname e um given name? � o mesmo que apelido e nome pr�prio, n�o �? No baptismo s� se *dava* o "nome proprio" �s crian�as. Em adulto, ou quando participavam no primeiro acto oficial (escritura, casamento, etc.) o nome de fam�lia (apelidos) que escolhiam deveria ficar para toda a vida. Mas se por exemplo escolhiam o nome de fam�lia/apelido(s) do pai e se, por acaso, se incompatibilizavam com ele, podiam muito bem passar a usar outro nome de fam�lia completamente diferente. Agora... juro que nunca vi um caso como: �"In�cio Ferreira da Trindade", and here Ferreira is the surname and Trindade a given name�. Ainda se f�sse �In�cio da Trindade Ferreira�... e, neste caso, teria de estar "In�cio da Trindade" no registo de baptismo - por que era o nome que lhe era "dado"/given... Ou estou enganado? Lu�s K W Lisboa ---------- > From: Paulo Gomes Jardim > I don't know if "Neves" in this case is a surname or a given name. > Sometimes given names appear also *after* the surname, which makes things > difficult when inserting them on the database. Someone can be "In�cio > Ferreira da Trindade", and here Ferreira is the surname and Trindade a > given name. The same for Paula Gomes (das?) Neves. > Nevertheless, there was at least one St� Ant�nio family that used Neves as > a surname, the Fernandes Neves, who may be familiar to Denise d' Antona. > It is possible that In�cia was from this family. >