I don't know, Pat. It seems that there were MANY different reasons for so many portuguese emigrants (since the 19th century) refuse to talk about their past, their origins and even hide that they were Portuguese. Poverty, ignorance, fear, shame, rage, ... the wish to forget everything they left behind? The strange thing is that most of them wouldn't mind being considered Spanish or Italian immigrants! Remember the *De Zocieur* family who was led to think they were from French origin. I had no doubts their ancestors were from "Dos Açores" (it sounds exactly like the french way of saying "de zocieur", which means nothing in french, of course!), and I was right. I don't think that most of the Portuguese that remained in Portugal are more interested in knowing their genealogy. Most people simply assume that their ancestors had the same boring life they are having now, never left the country, never fought a battle, never went to the Indies (and came back), etc. So, why bother? Most portuguese people isn't aware (or doesn't believe) that they have a large probability of descending from our first kings! Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- > From: Patricia Corbera > Patricia Corbera <papagaia2@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > So Dear Luis K W, what do you think the reason/s may have been? > Possibly the desire to assimilate into "a moda Americana,?" > Are you saying that our Portuguese cousins, that remained in Portugal are more involved/interested in learning about their ancestors? > Pat Corbera

Hi Pat, (I always love to read your beautiful descriptions!) I don't think that people was afraid of reprisals during the Salazar's rule over Portugal. Well... you maybe right! Those emigrants surely wouldn't like people to think they were suporters of that government... and they would probably be afraid argue, and say they were against it (because they would want to go back home, freely, one day). Anyway. This behaviour started with emigrants (that went to the States) long before Salazar's governments. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- > From: Patricia Corbera > Luis, > > The question that you posed is one that I have been asking for years, and still can not come up with an exact answer. > > It's possible, that during the Salazar dictatorship, many of our ancestors just existed, fearful of reprisals from the government if they became too out spoken or asked too many questions. That life style became a way of life when they migrated to foreign lands. Plus just surviving in a new land, proved difficult, learning a new language and new ways, no time to concern themselves with who their ancestors were, for they knew they were Portuguese, and that's all they needed to know. > I recall questioning my mom about how she and dad shared the same surname, before they were married. She simply said that they were related, but didn't know how. She went on to say that their existence depended on working, and raising their children to be responsible adults, and not to worry about who their ancestors were. Genealogy was something the rich did, and they were not rich, plus it wouldn't put food on the table or clothes on the backs of their children, and that all their fellow Portuguese friends who had migrated were in the same situation. To keep their Portuguese traditions alive they resided in Portuguese communities, holding dear the thoughts of their mother land, while making a new life for their families. > My parents were proud of being Portuguese, and instilled that in their children. We were born Americans, but our roots were Portuguese. You may ask if that be the case, then why don't I speak or write Portuguese? Let's just blame it on my poor brain not being able to handle a second language. ;-)) But it certainly does not mean that I am less proud of being Portuguese. > People who hide the fact that they are Portuguese, truly do not know what they are missing. After my parents died, for some unknown reason I felt the need to learn about my ancestors... Why me, and not my siblings, that's another question that I do not have an answer for. I just know that something deep inside me, needed to find out. Absent of the hardships that my parents and maternal grandparents were faced with, I have the desire and means to continue on this journey of discovery. > > Pat Silva Corbera

Dear Luis B. (Prazer em falar consigo de novo). I understand perfectly what your wrote. I know some people that behave exactly as you described, nowadays (i'm talking about people in the 30's, not about old people). So, I understand they didn't want to talk about their dead family. But, shouldn't one be proud of his nationality? Most emigrants we are talking about (those who didn't like to talk about their roots), went to the States in the turn of the (19-20) century. "Nationality" was a very important issue in Europe. Millions died for it... Hmmm...! Probably THAT was the reason. :-) Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- > From: Luis Beal > > It wasn't just the emigrants, it was just the way they were back in those days. And not just portuguese but all other nacionalities too. For some reason when someone in a family died the rest of the family no longer talked about that person. It was as if they never existed. The "let the dead rest" or " "leave the dead alone" is something older people truly believed in. My grandmother, for example, was one of 16 kids and yet when we would ask her her siblings names she would only list 5, because she was too young when the others died and her parents never told her anything about them. As I have helped people research their families I have found a lot of that happened to them too. Another reason was if they no longer were friends with someone in the family they treated them as if they had died. I find that in spouses that separated or children who ran away from home because of an argument of some sort. When couples split or the father ran away, especially if the father was a ! > jerk, > then he was as good as dead, and neither the mother or the kids would talk about him ever again. > Go figure, I could never understand it myself but for our ancestors that was the way it was supposed to be. > Luis Beal >

Luis, Yes, one should be proud of his/her nationality. But also when people immigrate they worry about being treated differently because they don't talk or act like everyone else. The way many dealt with the situation, and are are still dealing with nowadays here in the US, was by either not talking about their roots or not speaking or teaching their native language to their children. This way when the kids grew up speaking like everyone else they were supposedly treated the same and had as many chances in life as all other kids. We see this with Mexican, Asians, Portuguese, and other nationalities. There is a fear of being treated like minorities. Being foreign myself I understand the feeling and need but I do not agree that hidding the origins or not teaching their children their native language helps. On the contrary, I believe that by teaching children a second language we are opening more doors and oportunities to them than trying to make them grow up like everyone else. B! ut that is just my opinion. On the other hand, these children who are now grown up, and their children, are usually very proud of their roots. I have met many women and men who told me they were portuguese, and silly me thinking that being portuguese meant you were born in portugal and spoke the language, and I find out that they are grand-children or great grand children of native portuguese people. Usually they do not speak the language, or if the do it is just a little bit and it is because they are interested and love the language and made an effort to learn. They are wonderful. So, what the portuguese immigrants lacked in pride their descendants more than make up for it. That is why we have so many wonderful people on this list. Luis Beal PS- E' verdade que nevou ai no fim de semana passado? Tinha um artigo ontem online que disse isso. Ta' aqui: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060130/sc_nm/environment_portugal_dc Luis K W <luis_k_w@clix.pt> wrote: Dear Luis B. (Prazer em falar consigo de novo). I understand perfectly what your wrote. I know some people that behave exactly as you described, nowadays (i'm talking about people in the 30's, not about old people). So, I understand they didn't want to talk about their dead family. But, shouldn't one be proud of his nationality? Most emigrants we are talking about (those who didn't like to talk about their roots), went to the States in the turn of the (19-20) century. "Nationality" was a very important issue in Europe. Millions died for it... Hmmm...! Probably THAT was the reason. :-) Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- > From: Luis Beal > > It wasn't just the emigrants, it was just the way they were back in those days. And not just portuguese but all other nacionalities too. For some reason when someone in a family died the rest of the family no longer talked about that person. It was as if they never existed. The "let the dead rest" or " "leave the dead alone" is something older people truly believed in. My grandmother, for example, was one of 16 kids and yet when we would ask her her siblings names she would only list 5, because she was too young when the others died and her parents never told her anything about them. As I have helped people research their families I have found a lot of that happened to them too. Another reason was if they no longer were friends with someone in the family they treated them as if they had died. I find that in spouses that separated or children who ran away from home because of an argument of some sort. When couples split or the father ran away, especially if the father was a ! > jerk, > then he was as good as dead, and neither the mother or the kids would talk about him ever again. > Go figure, I could never understand it myself but for our ancestors that was the way it was supposed to be. > Luis Beal > ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Patricia Corbera <papagaia2@sbcglobal.net> wrote: So Dear Luis K W, what do you think the reason/s may have been? Possibly the desire to assimilate into "a moda Americana,?" Are you saying that our Portuguese cousins, that remained in Portugal are more involved/interested in learning about their ancestors? Pat Corbera Luis K W <luis_k_w@clix.pt> wrote: Hi Pat, (I always love to read your beautiful descriptions!) I don't think that people was afraid of reprisals during the Salazar's rule over Portugal. Well... you maybe right! Those emigrants surely wouldn't like people to think they were suporters of that government... and they would probably be afraid argue, and say they were against it (because they would want to go back home, freely, one day). Anyway. This behaviour started with emigrants (that went to the States) long before Salazar's governments. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- > From: Patricia Corbera > Luis, > > The question that you posed is one that I have been asking for years, and still can not come up with an exact answer. > > It's possible, that during the Salazar dictatorship, many of our ancestors just existed, fearful of reprisals from the government if they became too out spoken or asked too many questions. That life style became a way of life when they migrated to foreign lands. Plus just surviving in a new land, proved difficult, learning a new language and new ways, no time to concern themselves with who their ancestors were, for they knew they were Portuguese, and that's all they needed to know. > I recall questioning my mom about how she and dad shared the same surname, before they were married. She simply said that they were related, but didn't know how. She went on to say that their existence depended on working, and raising their children to be responsible adults, and not to worry about who their ancestors were. Genealogy was something the rich did, and they were not rich, plus it wouldn't put food on the table or clothes on the backs of their children, and that all their fellow Portuguese friends who had migrated were in the same situation. To keep their Portuguese traditions alive they resided in Portuguese communities, holding dear the thoughts of their mother land, while making a new life for their families. > My parents were proud of being Portuguese, and instilled that in their children. We were born Americans, but our roots were Portuguese. You may ask if that be the case, then why don't I speak or write Portuguese? Let's just blame it on my poor brain not being able to handle a second language. ;-)) But it certainly does not mean that I am less proud of being Portuguese. > People who hide the fact that they are Portuguese, truly do not know what they are missing. After my parents died, for some unknown reason I felt the need to learn about my ancestors... Why me, and not my siblings, that's another question that I do not have an answer for. I just know that something deep inside me, needed to find out. Absent of the hardships that my parents and maternal grandparents were faced with, I have the desire and means to continue on this journey of discovery. > > Pat Silva Corbera ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

Patricia Corbera <papagaia2@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Luis K W, The question that you posed is one that I have been asking for years, and still can not come up with an exact answer. It's possible, that during the Salazar dictatorship, many of our ancestors just existed, fearful of reprisals from the government if they became too out spoken or asked too many questions. That life style became a way of life when they migrated to foreign lands. Plus just surviving in a new land, proved difficult, learning a new language and new ways, no time to concern themselves with who their ancestors were, for they knew they were Portuguese, and that's all they needed to know. I recall questioning my mom about how she and dad shared the same surname, before they were married. She simply said that they were related, but didn't know how. She went on to say that their existence depended on working, and raising their children to be responsible adults, and not to worry about who their ancestors were. Genealogy was something the rich did, and they were not rich, plus it wouldn't put food on the table or clothes on the backs of their children, and that all their fellow Portuguese friends who had migrated were in the same situation. To keep their Portuguese traditions alive they resided in Portuguese communities, holding dear the thoughts of their mother land, while making a new life for their families. My parents were proud of being Portuguese, and instilled that in their children. We were born Americans, but our roots were Portuguese. You may ask if that be the case, then why don't I speak or write Portuguese? Let's just blame it on my poor brain not being able to handle a second language. ;-)) But it certainly does not mean that I am less proud of being Portuguese. People who hide the fact that they are Portuguese, truly do not know what they are missing. After my parents died, for some unknown reason I felt the need to learn about my ancestors... Why me, and not my siblings, that's another question that I do not have an answer for. I just know that something deep inside me, needed to find out. Absent of the hardships that my parents and maternal grandparents were faced with, I have the desire and means to continue on this journey of discovery. Pat Silva Corbera Luis K W wrote: My question is: Why didn't our emigrants like to talk about their ancestors? Many of them did even hide their portuguese ancestry! Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ----------- TIPS FROM READERS: When Grandma Won't Talk How can you find your ancestors when grandma won't talk about them? Such was the dilemma for one of my neighbors whom I offered to help with her family history research. Her grandmother Susan (name changed to protect her privacy) is living in a nursing home. Susan had never talked about her ancestry other than to say that her mother Mary Mello had come from Portugal, lived in California and then moved to Utah where she died. End of story -- Susan would tell no more. Nothing was known of Mary Mello's husband or other children. The first thing we did was search the Internet cemetery transcriptions for Mary Mello. Utah has a wonderful Cemetery Inventory database that will search all of the transcribed cemeteries in the state at one time. Through that we found Mary Mello buried in the Elwood Cemetery in Utah. The burial record included Mary Mello's birth year. Because Grandma Susan was over 75 years of age, I knew she would appear in the 1930 census as a young girl. Knowing how old Mary Mello would have been in 1930, we did a search for her and her daughter "Susan" in the California 1930 census. To our happy surprise we found them and Mary's husband -- Frank Mello (a new name!). Then we stepped back 10 years and did a search for Frank Mello in the 1920 census. Even greater surprise -- Frank had not yet married Mary, but was living with his mother and siblings. We were able to positively identify him because of his age, the location and his occupation. Plus one of his sisters had the same name as one that he and Mary later gave their daughter. In just 20 minutes we had extended the family line back two generations, with many more names and dates than had previously been known. And as for the family tradition that the ancestors had come from Portugal -- they were actually from the Azores, a group of islands just off the coast of Portugal. I'm sure there is more that can be found easily -- now that we have more information to go on. Grandma didn't need to talk after all! ----------- ==== PORTUGUESE-SURNAMES Mailing List ==== Please never answer off topic messages, just ignore it or contact if necessary the List administrator at: PORTUGUESE-SURNAMES-admin@rootsweb.com ============================== Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx ==== PORTUGUESE-SURNAMES Mailing List ==== RootsWeb's mailing lists are filtered and attachments are removed. A virus that is distributed as an attachment will not reach you through a RootsWeb mailing list. For further information about Viruses, Trojans, Worms etc., go please to: http://helpdesk.rootsweb.com/virus.html. Think to keep your Anti-Virus up-to-date! ============================== View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find marriage announcements and more. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx

It wasn't just the emigrants, it was just the way they were back in those days. And not just portuguese but all other nacionalities too. For some reason when someone in a family died the rest of the family no longer talked about that person. It was as if they never existed. The "let the dead rest" or " "leave the dead alone" is something older people truly believed in. My grandmother, for example, was one of 16 kids and yet when we would ask her her siblings names she would only list 5, because she was too young when the others died and her parents never told her anything about them. As I have helped people research their families I have found a lot of that happened to them too. Another reason was if they no longer were friends with someone in the family they treated them as if they had died. I find that in spouses that separated or children who ran away from home because of an argument of some sort. When couples split or the father ran away, especially if the father was a ! jerk, then he was as good as dead, and neither the mother or the kids would talk about him ever again. Go figure, I could never understand it myself but for our ancestors that was the way it was supposed to be. Luis Beal Luis K W <luis_k_w@clix.pt> wrote: My question is: Why didn't our emigrants like to talk about their ancestors? Many of them did even hide their portuguese ancestry! Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ----------- TIPS FROM READERS: When Grandma Won't Talk How can you find your ancestors when grandma won't talk about them? Such was the dilemma for one of my neighbors whom I offered to help with her family history research. Her grandmother Susan (name changed to protect her privacy) is living in a nursing home. Susan had never talked about her ancestry other than to say that her mother Mary Mello had come from Portugal, lived in California and then moved to Utah where she died. End of story -- Susan would tell no more. Nothing was known of Mary Mello's husband or other children. The first thing we did was search the Internet cemetery transcriptions for Mary Mello. Utah has a wonderful Cemetery Inventory database that will search all of the transcribed cemeteries in the state at one time. Through that we found Mary Mello buried in the Elwood Cemetery in Utah. The burial record included Mary Mello's birth year. Because Grandma Susan was over 75 years of age, I knew she would appear in the 1930 census as a young girl. Knowing how old Mary Mello would have been in 1930, we did a search for her and her daughter "Susan" in the California 1930 census. To our happy surprise we found them and Mary's husband -- Frank Mello (a new name!). Then we stepped back 10 years and did a search for Frank Mello in the 1920 census. Even greater surprise -- Frank had not yet married Mary, but was living with his mother and siblings. We were able to positively identify him because of his age, the location and his occupation. Plus one of his sisters had the same name as one that he and Mary later gave their daughter. In just 20 minutes we had extended the family line back two generations, with many more names and dates than had previously been known. And as for the family tradition that the ancestors had come from Portugal -- they were actually from the Azores, a group of islands just off the coast of Portugal. I'm sure there is more that can be found easily -- now that we have more information to go on. Grandma didn't need to talk after all! ----------- ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429 --------------------------------- Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.

My question is: Why didn't our emigrants like to talk about their ancestors? Many of them did even hide their portuguese ancestry! Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ----------- TIPS FROM READERS: When Grandma Won't Talk How can you find your ancestors when grandma won't talk about them? Such was the dilemma for one of my neighbors whom I offered to help with her family history research. Her grandmother Susan (name changed to protect her privacy) is living in a nursing home. Susan had never talked about her ancestry other than to say that her mother Mary Mello had come from Portugal, lived in California and then moved to Utah where she died. End of story -- Susan would tell no more. Nothing was known of Mary Mello's husband or other children. The first thing we did was search the Internet cemetery transcriptions for Mary Mello. Utah has a wonderful Cemetery Inventory database that will search all of the transcribed cemeteries in the state at one time. Through that we found Mary Mello buried in the Elwood Cemetery in Utah. The burial record included Mary Mello's birth year. Because Grandma Susan was over 75 years of age, I knew she would appear in the 1930 census as a young girl. Knowing how old Mary Mello would have been in 1930, we did a search for her and her daughter "Susan" in the California 1930 census. To our happy surprise we found them and Mary's husband -- Frank Mello (a new name!). Then we stepped back 10 years and did a search for Frank Mello in the 1920 census. Even greater surprise -- Frank had not yet married Mary, but was living with his mother and siblings. We were able to positively identify him because of his age, the location and his occupation. Plus one of his sisters had the same name as one that he and Mary later gave their daughter. In just 20 minutes we had extended the family line back two generations, with many more names and dates than had previously been known. And as for the family tradition that the ancestors had come from Portugal -- they were actually from the Azores, a group of islands just off the coast of Portugal. I'm sure there is more that can be found easily -- now that we have more information to go on. Grandma didn't need to talk after all! -----------

Hi Mary, You should post this to the DEFREITAS-L mail group on Rootsweb.com. Someone may be looking for the same people. :O) Denise De Freitas D'Antona In a message dated 2/1/2006 3:07:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tiamaria@frostdesign.com writes: Have we started a trend here? If so, I will add a bit of my de Freitas history. Paternal grandmother Ema was daughter of Teodolinda de Freitas from Machico. Teodolinda's parents were Germano de Freitas and Maria dos Santos of Machico (1831). Germano's parents were Ambrosio de Freitas and Maria de Jesus of Machico (1791). Ambrosio's parents were Manuel de Freitas and Francisca de Freitas of Machico (1744). There are now two lines of de Freitas here. But wait... if you go back to Maria dos Santos 1831----her mother Joana de Jesus was the daughter of Eugenia de Freitas and Bras Pereira (1719) of Machico. That makes three lines of de Freitas all from the Machico area that merge into one. Unfortunately, no one who emigrated from direct line carried the de Freitas name to the US. Mary da Silva Frost

Hi Luis and Cece, After taking a second look at the Amaro Afonso line, of which I thought I had a link, it turns out that I was wrong. Just too many Sardinhas and Rodrigues, but not the right ones... I'll keep checking, and hope to locate a connection, especially with the Estreito da Calheta area. Pat

Thanks Mary. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the offer to look up records. At this stage it appears that everyone I'm researching is in Porto Santo, but I'll keep your email just in case something comes along. Thanks again! Janette -----Original Message----- From: tiamaria [mailto:tiamaria@frostdesign.com] Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 4:10 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [PRT-MADEIRA] Questions re Junior and Senior Regarding the asterik* on records in ARM---if you had access to the actual index catalog for that church, the explanations are at the beginning of the sections of the books for that church. Example: In Nossa Senhora do Monte for Antonio Francisco and Francisca Rosa 1835 191 17v, there is an * next to Francisca Rosa. When I turn to the front of the index catalog, there is a notation that original document has the name Francisca Joaquina in the margin of the page next to this record. I have found that sometimes the notes are for marriages listed in the church that were actually performed at another church, or for additional information on names in margins, or for divorces in records from the later years. I have three catalogs. One is for Machico; the second is for N S do Monte, Sao Goncalo and Sao Roque; and the third is for Santa Luzia, Santa Maria Maior and Sao Pedro. If the record you need is in any of those church records, I will be happy to look up the notation for you. Mary da Silva Frost ============================== Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx

Regarding the asterik* on records in ARM---if you had access to the actual index catalog for that church, the explanations are at the beginning of the sections of the books for that church. Example: In Nossa Senhora do Monte for Antonio Francisco and Francisca Rosa 1835 191 17v, there is an * next to Francisca Rosa. When I turn to the front of the index catalog, there is a notation that original document has the name Francisca Joaquina in the margin of the page next to this record. I have found that sometimes the notes are for marriages listed in the church that were actually performed at another church, or for additional information on names in margins, or for divorces in records from the later years. I have three catalogs. One is for Machico; the second is for N S do Monte, Sao Goncalo and Sao Roque; and the third is for Santa Luzia, Santa Maria Maior and Sao Pedro. If the record you need is in any of those church records, I will be happy to look up the notation for you. Mary da Silva Frost

Dear Paulo, Seeing that you have some co-workers from Arco da Calheta, maybe I can impose upon both you and your co-workers to do me a favor. This past April when I visited Arco da Calheta, one of the villagers took me to the home of a older man who had lived in the United States for about 17 years before returning Madeira. This gentleman told me that his daughter still lives in the United States with her husband and children. After leaving Madeira it occurred to me that I should have given my name and address to him and asked him to send it to his daughter. I do not even have his name. If your co-workers could locate him, they could give him my e-mail address to pass onto his daughter. It she does not use a computer, I can send you my mailing address. To find this gentleman, as you stand in the plaza in front of the church looking out towards the ocean, on your right across the street is a small restaurant or tare. They had everything: food, coffee, drinks, and dart game. The man lives above this restaurant. The steps up to his home are to the left of the restaurant. If this is too much to ask, please do not worry about it. Thank you, David DeGrella Tennessee, USA On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 21:59:09 -0000 "Paulo Gomes Jardim" <darwin@spamcop.net> writes: > Dear D. Rodrigues, > > Here is the information about that place I could find in Dicionário > Corográfico do Arquipélago da Madeira by Fernando Augusto da Silva, > 1934 > edition: > "Pinheiro: Sitio povoado da freg. do Arco da Calheta. 37f e 176h." > > It means that, by 1934 (or a little earlier), there were there 37 > houses > with 176 inhabitants. > I don't know where it is, as I don't know Arco da Calheta very well, > though I can ask some of my co-workers who are from there. > I presume the origin of the name was some notorious pinetree that > worked > as a mark for that place, as happened in many other places with the > same > name, here in Madeira. > > Paulo > > On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:39:50 -0000, Donald Rodrigues > <DRodrigues@Pacbell.net> wrote: > > > I am looking for information about a place named Pinheiro which is > > situated near Arco da Calheta, Madeira. Baptism documents for > various > > relatives baptized in the Church of Sao Braz, Arco da Calheta, > show that > > they were residents of Pinheiro which I'm guessing is within > walking > > distance of the church. Where is Pinheiro in relation to Arco da > > Calheta? Can anyone tell me about this place and its history? > > > > D. Rodrigues

Nobrega is a family I do not recall seeing before on this list. We have a letter to my great grandmother written in Portuguese in 1862. It was written from aboard the U.S. Navy ship Niagara. The letter is signed, "Your nephew... Henry S. D, Nobrega" My great grandmother was Francisca Candida da Silva and the letter was addressed to her in New York City. In the letter Henry asks her to "...send me news about Madeira..." I know nothing about Henry Nobrega. I obtained what information the Department of Navy has on this ship. No crew list from this time survives. The ships home port was Boston. The history that the Navy has did reveal that the USS Niagara in 1862 sailed into Lisbon harbor searching for a Confederate ship. There the ship was fired upon by the Belem Tower. I find this ironic since I'm sure that Henry Nobrega was not the only Portuguese sailor among the crew. The letter has such neat writing that it appears that the letter was written for him. I wonder if it could have been an officer education in Portuguese as a second language. This could account for his name being written as "D, Nobrega" instead of "D'Norbrega". David DeGrella Tennessee, USA On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:57:54 EST Denise1270@aol.com writes: > > Hi Margaret, > > My fathers aunt, Clarisse Goncalves de Freitas, married a Luis de > Nobrega > from Camacha. Sound familiar? > > Denise > > In a message dated 1/25/2006 2:48:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > marpg2000@comcast.net writes: > > Interesting the number of Freitas and Goveia families in Maderia. > My mother > in law was related to them and to trace them in Camacha or Sito do > Salgados > is very confussing due to the repetition of the names. She is from > the > deNobrega family in Camacha. > > Margaret

Donald, The Latter Day Saints have at least one film (#1161275) of the passport registrations from the 1800s. The records are in the order in which the passports were issued. They will give the destination, who the person is traveling with, and a description of the person. The years 1855 to 1865 are missing. At the time I ordered the film I was looking for 1858. :( Hope this helps. David DeGrella Tennessee, USA On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 20:30:08 -0800 "Donald Rodrigues" <DRodrigues@Pacbell.net> writes: > Does anyone know what's involved to obtain copies of the > documentation presented in Madeira by emigrants who applied to > travel to Hawaii? I've seen such documentation obtained from Madeira > but don't know its source or how it was acquired. Are such data > managed by the Madeira archives? > > I have a specific person identified on a specific vessel's passenger > list (1884 arrival in Honolulu) but don't know how and where to > present a request for documents. Please reply if you have > information or interest. > > Donald Rodrigues

It can be but also when we say two vowels in a row we tend to combine them as one as in the case of "de Agrela" we say "Dagrela" or "Dalmeida" instead of "de Almeida." It could have also been his accent as Madeirans have a closed in french sounding accent. Who knows. When it comes to the census someone once said you need to imagine a drunken Irish asking a Polish woman for information, and that is what you get, in this case imagine a drunken Irish asking a Portuguese woman for information ;) Luis Beal david-nancy.degrella@juno.com wrote: Luis, In addition to pronunciation, English speaking persons may not understand what they hear. My family name here in the U.S. is DeGrella. As a "Portuguese" name DeGrella is found only in English speaking countries. Having found other DeGrellas and DeGrillas that are not related to me but whose ancestors came from Madeira, raised the question how did this name come to be. My conclusions is that when a Portuguese word beginning in a vow is spoken by a person from Portugal, the English speaking person does not hear the leading vow. Thus when my great grandfather told the census taken in New York city that his name is Alexandre de Agrella, the census taker heard it as Alexander DeGrella. Also when he joined the U.S. Army, his name was written down as DeGrilla. I believe these types of written records caused my grandfather to use DeGrella as his name. (The DeGrillas on Bermuda believe their original Madeiran name to be Aguillar.) Based upon your experience with both languages, would you agree with this conclusion? Thanks, David DeGrella Tennessee, USA On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:32:07 -0800 (PST) Luis Beal writes: > Freitas is a very common name not just in Madeira but also in the > continent, and I am sure the Azores also. I am portuguese born and > raised but I live in the US and I have to say that I have heard many > portuguese names pronounced in such a way that I did not recognize > them as portuguese. I have to see them written down to know. I am > sure you can pronounce your name the portuguese way but I have to > share what I have seen so far happen in this country. For example my > oldest son is named Miguel and he has been called Maguel, Meigue'l, > Migu'e'l, Magu'e'l. And this is also a spanish name so one would > think it would be pronounced correctly. My favorite name screw up is > a street in California called Coelho St. It is pronounced Co^e'ho^ > with the hard english H sound, it sounds very interesting. Although > the "lh" sound is a very hard sound for an american to pronounce > (like the "th" sound is for a portuguese) the way the word is > pronounced here is even harder than the original form.! I > remember the guy who told us about this street name was getting > frustrated because we did not recognize it and he kept repeating it > and saying that it was a portuguese name. Well he was right but I > could not tell until I saw it written down. And then, of course, > there are the portuguese names that have been completely > americanized and impossible to recognize as portuguese. This is the > case of my uncle who moved from Madeira to the US, his last name was > Rodrigues da Ressurreicao but his children go by Rogers. I always > get a kick out of that one. > Luis Beal ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx --------------------------------- Bring words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.

Luis, In addition to pronunciation, English speaking persons may not understand what they hear. My family name here in the U.S. is DeGrella. As a "Portuguese" name DeGrella is found only in English speaking countries. Having found other DeGrellas and DeGrillas that are not related to me but whose ancestors came from Madeira, raised the question how did this name come to be. My conclusions is that when a Portuguese word beginning in a vow is spoken by a person from Portugal, the English speaking person does not hear the leading vow. Thus when my great grandfather told the census taken in New York city that his name is Alexandre de Agrella, the census taker heard it as Alexander DeGrella. Also when he joined the U.S. Army, his name was written down as DeGrilla. I believe these types of written records caused my grandfather to use DeGrella as his name. (The DeGrillas on Bermuda believe their original Madeiran name to be Aguillar.) Based upon your experience with both languages, would you agree with this conclusion? Thanks, David DeGrella Tennessee, USA On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:32:07 -0800 (PST) Luis Beal <luisbeal@yahoo.com> writes: > Freitas is a very common name not just in Madeira but also in the > continent, and I am sure the Azores also. I am portuguese born and > raised but I live in the US and I have to say that I have heard many > portuguese names pronounced in such a way that I did not recognize > them as portuguese. I have to see them written down to know. I am > sure you can pronounce your name the portuguese way but I have to > share what I have seen so far happen in this country. For example my > oldest son is named Miguel and he has been called Maguel, Meigue'l, > Migu'e'l, Magu'e'l. And this is also a spanish name so one would > think it would be pronounced correctly. My favorite name screw up is > a street in California called Coelho St. It is pronounced Co^e'ho^ > with the hard english H sound, it sounds very interesting. Although > the "lh" sound is a very hard sound for an american to pronounce > (like the "th" sound is for a portuguese) the way the word is > pronounced here is even harder than the original form.! I > remember the guy who told us about this street name was getting > frustrated because we did not recognize it and he kept repeating it > and saying that it was a portuguese name. Well he was right but I > could not tell until I saw it written down. And then, of course, > there are the portuguese names that have been completely > americanized and impossible to recognize as portuguese. This is the > case of my uncle who moved from Madeira to the US, his last name was > Rodrigues da Ressurreicao but his children go by Rogers. I always > get a kick out of that one. > Luis Beal

Paulo, Please keep me informed of what you learn. Thanks, David DeGrella Tennessee, USA On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 04:57:14 -0000 "Paulo Gomes Jardim" <darwin@spamcop.net> writes: > Hi David, > > I thought not, though it was a coincidence, as she was an Agrela too (but > an Agrela *Coutinho*, she insisted). :) > I'm now looking into my Calheta lines, please tell me if you need some > help with a particular record, it could be that it is on the microfilms > that I've requested. > > If've now found another branch of Agrelas I descend from, this one is in > Fajã da Ovelha, near Estreito da Calheta. I expect to link it with the > others very soon. :) > > Paulo > > On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 01:45:37 +0100, <david-nancy.degrella@juno.com> > wrote: > > > Paulo, > > We are glad to hear from you again. > > That was not us who scared the lady in Estreito da Calheta. We > did our > > filming and asking questions in Arco da Calheta. Hopefully we did > not > > scare anyone there. Everyone there that we talked to went out of > their > > way to make us feel welcome. > > David and Nancy DeGrella (d' Agrella) > > Tennessee, USA

I'm a little slow in joining in, but here is my posting for the roll call: I am searching for both ancestors and descendents of: Alexandre de Agrella born in Arco da Calheta, Madeira in 1828. He died in the United Sates in 1879. The location is unknown. Because his oldest grandchild was born in New York City in 1882, that puts the family still in New York at the time of his death. He came to New York City on 4 Sep 1851 after having just been married in August in Funchal. His wife was Francisca Candida da Silva was from Funchal. By 1858 they had three boys, George, my grandfather, Jose and Joao. Family verbal history says that one my grandfather's brothers was killed in New York as a child being hit by a train. That is all I know about Jose and Joao. It is unknown if the other brother had children, but if he did I am searching for them. By the 1860 census, Alexandre de Agrella's name had become Alexander DeGrella. His military records with the U.S. Army during the American Civil War has his name as Alexander DeGrilla. Of the DeGrellas and DeGrillas that I have made contact with, we have not been able to establish any relationship but their ancestors all came from Madeira. David DeGrella Tennessee, USA

Yes, junior and senior as used in Portugal the same as we do here. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janette Chun" <janettechun@shaw.ca> To: <PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 12:38 PM Subject: [PRT-MADEIRA] Questions re Junior and Senior > Hello, > > > > This question may have been previously posted, if so, my apologies for the > repetition. Is the 'Junior' and 'Senior' designation noted after some of > the entries in the Arquivo Regional da Madeira's database used in the > traditional sense of father/son? Some of the dates posted don't seem to > correlate with this theory. > > > > Another question - after some entries there's an asterisk next to the name. > What does this mean? I don't see a key to indicate this. > > > > Thanks, > > Janette > > Vancouver, Canada > > Researching Mendonca & Gois > > > > > > ============================== > Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. > Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx >