Good evening. My name is Marcia and I live in Durban, KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa. I have just been reading with interest all the mails that have come through to me from the mailing list regarding the Madeiran Archives Website. I also do not speak Portuguese and am having great difficulty in tracing my ancestry. My great-grandparents were born in Portugal. My great-grandmother was Maria Clara (Calderia) de Abreu/de Abreau/Deabreu (not sure of the spelling). She was born in Madeira but unfortunately the parish is unknown to me (I have a faint suspicion though that it may very well have been Funchal - don't ask me why, I just get these feelings sometimes). My great-grandfather was Marceal/Marcial/Marcel Vieira Serena and he was born in Lisbon. They both came through to South Africa in the early 1900's (I think). I today tried to do a search on the Madeiran Archives for the surname "Serena" but nothing comes up. I came up with lots of Vieira's and de Abreau's but nothing at all that comes close to my great-grandparents' names. I have been assured that Serena is definitely a Portuguese surname so can't understand why nobody else has that surname. I have basically hit a "brick wall" with my research. I have so far been unable to obtain birth certificates or any sort of family record from my grandmother's family members. Unfortunately the person who probably would have remembered the most (my grandmother), passed away in 1990. My great-grandparents' childrens' names were - De Lourdes Serena (died at age 19) (I think she may have been born in Portugal), "Fatti" (not sure if this is a Portuguese name or a nickname - He may also very well have been born in Portugal) Vieira Serena, Luiz Jose Vieira Serena, Antonio Vieira Serena, Deloures Serena, Theresa Maria Serena (born in South Africa I think), Beatrice (Beatriz) Serena (born in South Africa), Angelina Clara Serena (my deceased grandmother) (definitely born in South Africa) and Lawrence (Lourenco) Serena (he died as a baby from consumption). The reason I started my research in the first place was to try and see whether I would be able to obtain my Portuguese Passport through my maternal grandparents - So far the Portuguese Embassy in South Africa has been most unhelpful in that they refuse to give me any information as to whether I may or may not be entitled to a Portuguese passport. But, as my research has gone on, my curiosity has just gotten the better of me. My maternal side of the family seems to think that there is some huge secret about my great-grandfather's departure from Portugal - something to the effect that he could have stolen someone else's surname - but this has not been confirmed. Is there somebody out there that can perhaps help me in my quest for my heritage? Kind regards, Marcia Bezuidenhout
Jose, I need to update the records for that, I currently have Antonio Abreu listed as the oldest relative, however, I have gone back much further than that Manuel de Abreu ~1650. can you tell me how to update the records. Lou "For those who have fought for it....Freedom has a taste the protected will never know" " Without the Brave there would be no land of the Free" A new Recruit asked an old Warrior, "What is War like?" The old timer replied, "A bunch of us went down to Gettysburg one day, a lot of people died. If you werent there you wouldnt understand." -----Original Message----- From: Fernandes, Jose [mailto:jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca] Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 3:00 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran archives website Thanks for joining our DNA group. As the co-administrator I have seen your results. We are a small group, but as you may know Katherine has started to use Portuguese DNA studies such as the Beleza study to "widen" the group. I also believe (this is only my opinion) that we may find matches in the Spanish groups, specifically Galician and Castillian groups. I know Katherine is continuing her work in that area. There is also a newsgroup of Portuguese Jews and their descendants all over the world, which I belong to, which will enlighten our research. As Madeirans and descendants of Portuguese we have to remain open to all possibilities. The least known aspect of our common history is our Jewish history. That can also be said about our Moorish and African history. Have a good day. José -----Original Message----- From: ABREU III,LOUIS [mailto:labreu@cablespeed.com] Sent: June 6, 2006 2:45 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran archives website Jose, I have done the National Geographic DNA testing, my results are posted on the Madeira DNA site. I am the only one so far with my particular Haplogroup....which is very interesting. Lou On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:07:18 -0400 "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> wrote: > Lou, > > I am not sure we should be stuck. Others may have a >different perspective and we shouldn't give up. > > In my opinion it will be hard to trace our families to >Portugal (mainland). That is if you believe in fairy >tales we all came from Minho and Algarve so that should >be easy. I am one of those that believe that our people >came from many places, including outside Portugal. DNA >testing may assist us in that but paper records will be >almost impossible. I am told that we only started keeping >parochial records in the late 17th century. There are >some before then but they didn't have to be registered. > > Also, the Madeiran Government has often requested that >Madeiran archives and other related documents be >transferred to the Regional Government from Lisbon. To >the best of my information this has been denied by the >Portuguese government. So if you want to do further >research you must go to the Torre do Tombo in Lisbon. > > Cheers, > José > > -----Original Message----- >From: ABREU III,LOUIS [mailto:labreu@cablespeed.com] > Sent: June 6, 2006 1:17 PM > To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran archives website > > Mr. Fernandes, > I have run into the exact situations that you > describe, it is what has made the search for my >ancestors > both fun and frustrating. I have often wondered how you > could determine the who/what/when/where......but by your > posting I would say I am stuck with no hope of tracing > from the island to the mainland. > > Regards, > Lou > > On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 11:23:58 -0400 > "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> > wrote: >> Bob, >> >> I can only share my experience as a native-born Madeiran >>who continues to have strong links to the region and >>opinions... >> >> Camacho is a well-know name in Madeira but in my opinion >>is not equivalent to Smith. Fernandes, Gonçalves, Freitas >>etc. are more common. >> >> Over 500 years of colonization many decisions have been >>made. Anything could happen and it did happen. Some by >>priests others by Portuguese officials. Surnames can be >>all over the place. The old Madeira was also very class >>based. Some names denoted upper class. Some families with >>common names and who became rich wanted to be different. >>Thus you have Pereira Camacho to distinguish from others. >>Sometimes, if you married "up", the children took the >>most "rich" name. Sometimes they added a "de" and >>sometimes that "de" was taken away by officials and >>priests. >> >> Although all Madeirans have somewhat related (DNA could >>prove that) not all surnames denote a common ancestor. >> >> Many don't want to talk about it, but we had slaves who >>took the owner's name. We had Jews and moors that changed >>names. Pereira, for example denotes Jewish ancestry. >>There was a time that some families used the common >>Spanish tradition of naming their children after their >>mother. Therefore you would be known by your mother's >>surname. There were many children of "rich men" who were >>not given the father's surname. Usually children of young >>(poor) women who worked for rich families. Therefore you >>have "pai incognito". Let me tell you that father was not >>unknown. Everybody knew it but they were not "allowed" to >>name him. >> >> Madeirans changed surnames. It was easy to do it. Money >>and influence could buy anything. >> >> In my opinion there are the Pereiras and then there are >>the Pereira Camacho famnilies. It would be interesting to >>find out when that started and what prompted it. >> >> I don't think I have added to your research but all of >>the best. >> >> José Fernandes >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >>From: BOBCAMSCPW@aol.com [mailto:BOBCAMSCPW@aol.com] >> Sent: June 5, 2006 11:04 PM >> To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran archives website >> >> thank you everyone for the information. I now have a >>question about my >> family in Madeira. When I was doing my research I was >>told by someone that also >> was doing research in Madeira that I would need to >>research everyone with the >> middle name of Pereira because they would be related to >>each other. Do you >> know if that is true or not. I was told that the Last >> name of Camacho is >> like Smith there are so many of them that why you could >>tell who is related to >> whom was by there middle name unless one of the women >>got married to another >> Camacho with a different middle name then you would have >>to research that >> name. >> The main reason I ask this is that I have done some >>research and found that >> most of the surname are all the same. Using either >>Joao, Jose, and so on, >> but everyone has had the middle name of Pereira and then >>Camacho. >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> Bob Camacho >> Researching the islands of >> Terceira for da Costa, and Evangelho, >> Graciousa for Reis, and >> Madeira for Camacho >> >> >> >> ============================== >> Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your >>family and the >> areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the >>last 12 months. >> Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >> >> >> >> >> >> ============================== >> Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your >>family and the >> areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the >>last 12 months. >> Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >> > > > ============================== > New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search >for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with >family and friends. Learn more: >http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=145 99&targetid=5429 > > > > > > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not >only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx > ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx ============================== Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. New content added every business day. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx
It is found all over Sao Miguel, right from 1500 or so, and it may indeed have Spanish origins, but I don't know. I confess that I assumed it was similarly common in Madeira. JR ----- Original Message ----- From: "Luis Beal" <luisbeal@yahoo.com> To: <PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 6:55 PM Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran Archives Website > And where is the name Senra or Sennra from? Is it spanish? > I know it is not portuguese. > Luis Beal > > John Roias <jroias@rogers.com> wrote: > What an interesting and lively exchange. Might I suggest the name > "Serena" > might be a corruption of the name "Senra" or "Sennra". > > JR > >> I today tried to do a search on the Madeiran Archives for the surname >> "Serena" but nothing comes up.
What an interesting and lively exchange. Might I suggest the name "Serena" might be a corruption of the name "Senra" or "Sennra". JR > I today tried to do a search on the Madeiran Archives for the surname > "Serena" but nothing comes up.
Hi List, I had a question. Now some one mentioned that the Pereira is Jewish or Moorish. How would I find out from what I already know. Manuel Pereira, 1844, father Francisco Pereira and mother Maria Candida De Jesus. What I was told that those from Pereira were blue eyed. Also Manuel's wife Maria D'Encarancao - Father Antonio D' Abreu and Mother Jesuina Rosa were also Blue eyed. My question is ..... weren't most moorish and Portuguese browned eyed? Also, how would one be a part of this DNA research? Al
BOBCAMSCPW said that he was researching his antepassados in Madeira by the name of Manuel Gomes Basenga. Manuel Gomes Bazenga did marry a Maria de Freitas in 1861 in the Parish of Santo António, Funchal. The first recorded marriage by that name appears to be in 1753 between an Manuel Gomes Bazenga and an Ana Gomes of Santo António.
Hi Marcia Maybe I can give you a small hand with your research. The correct spelling for your grandmother's name was Maria Clara Caldeira de Abreu. Please note the spelling of Caldeira. English-speaking people have a tendency to write Calderia (the "i" after the "r") but as you progress in your research you'll fins that the ending "eira" very common in Portuguese surnames (Caldeira, Vieira, Ferreira, Pereira, etc.). You mention that your great-grandfather was born in Lisbon. "Serena" is certainly a Portuguese word but as a surname it is not that common. I just checked the Portuguese White Pages for the whole of Portugal and found 12 living people with the surname Serena. With the surname "Vieira Serena" I found only one person (Monica Vasconcelos Vieira Serena - 96 827 73 22). The number 96 indicates that this is a cellular phone, a common occurrence in Portugal today. Sometimes I think that just about everyone has a cell phone. Do you know if your great-grandparents married in Madeira? I checked the Madeira database and did not find a "Serena", but found several "Sereno". Also, the surname "Sereno" ending in "o" instead of "a" is a lot more common in the Portuguese White Pages, I found. The system refused to to a "national" search because it found too many. Based the names of your great-grandmother, I found the marriage below that could be that of her parents. At least the date and the surnames make sense. João de Abreu Aureliana Narcisa Caldeira 2929 3 v.º Porto da Cruz 1861 Have you tried the Family History Center? I checked the web and there is a Family History Center in Durban. The address is below: Durban South Africa 144 Silverton Road Berea Durban, Kwazulu Natal, South Africa In the Family History Center you can order and research the microfilms from Madeira. I checked their database and it seems that the all the books of the vital records are microfilmed, until 1911. You pay a pittance for the use of the microfilm and research at your leisure. Much better and cheaper than have the people at the Archives do it for you. Do not let the fact that you do not know Portuguese scare you. The wording on the registries is all the same and after the first ones you'll realize that they all records read about the same and only the names change. Good luck in your research. Let me know if you need anything else. Ana Ghia-Pereira Ottawa, Canada Researching: Bengio, Bendrao, Ayash, Paxiuta, Guia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcia & Roland" <roland1@wol.co.za> To: <PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 2:11 PM Subject: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran Archives Website > Good evening. > > My name is Marcia and I live in Durban, KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa. I > have > just been reading with interest all the mails that have come through to me > from the mailing list regarding the Madeiran Archives Website. I also do > not speak Portuguese and am having great difficulty in tracing my > ancestry. > > My great-grandparents were born in Portugal. My great-grandmother was > Maria > Clara (Calderia) de Abreu/de Abreau/Deabreu (not sure of the spelling). > She > was born in Madeira but unfortunately the parish is unknown to me (I have > a > faint suspicion though that it may very well have been Funchal - don't ask > me why, I just get these feelings sometimes). My great-grandfather was > Marceal/Marcial/Marcel Vieira Serena and he was born in Lisbon. They both > came through to South Africa in the early 1900's (I think). > > I today tried to do a search on the Madeiran Archives for the surname > "Serena" but nothing comes up. I came up with lots of Vieira's and de > Abreau's but nothing at all that comes close to my great-grandparents' > names. I have been assured that Serena is definitely a Portuguese surname > so can't understand why nobody else has that surname. I have basically > hit > a "brick wall" with my research. I have so far been unable to obtain > birth > certificates or any sort of family record from my grandmother's family > members. Unfortunately the person who probably would have remembered the > most (my grandmother), passed away in 1990. > > My great-grandparents' childrens' names were - De Lourdes Serena (died at > age 19) (I think she may have been born in Portugal), "Fatti" (not sure if > this is a Portuguese name or a nickname - He may also very well have been > born in Portugal) Vieira Serena, Luiz Jose Vieira Serena, Antonio Vieira > Serena, Deloures Serena, Theresa Maria Serena (born in South Africa I > think), Beatrice (Beatriz) Serena (born in South Africa), Angelina Clara > Serena (my deceased grandmother) (definitely born in South Africa) and > Lawrence (Lourenco) Serena (he died as a baby from consumption). > > The reason I started my research in the first place was to try and see > whether I would be able to obtain my Portuguese Passport through my > maternal > grandparents - So far the Portuguese Embassy in South Africa has been most > unhelpful in that they refuse to give me any information as to whether I > may > or may not be entitled to a Portuguese passport. But, as my research has > gone on, my curiosity has just gotten the better of me. > > My maternal side of the family seems to think that there is some huge > secret > about my great-grandfather's departure from Portugal - something to the > effect that he could have stolen someone else's surname - but this has not > been confirmed. > > Is there somebody out there that can perhaps help me in my quest for my > heritage? > > Kind regards, > > Marcia Bezuidenhout > > > > ============================== > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. > New content added every business day. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx >
There is at least one family in Madeira named Bazenga. In fact Bazenga Marques was a member of the Madeiran regional government. Note that he spells it with a "z". -----Original Message----- From: Yangprida@aol.com [mailto:Yangprida@aol.com] Sent: June 6, 2006 3:53 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [PRT-MADEIRA] Basenga! The surname Basenga is obviously an 'apelido' - a nickname. It may be that a family member served in the African colonies while in the Portuguese military (perhaps, the Angolan conflict). Several African tribes of that area were called Kasenga, Bazunga, and in Portuguese - Basenga. It makes for quite an interesting prospect for research. ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
And where is the name Senra or Sennra from? Is it spanish? I know it is not portuguese. Luis Beal John Roias <jroias@rogers.com> wrote: What an interesting and lively exchange. Might I suggest the name "Serena" might be a corruption of the name "Senra" or "Sennra". JR > I today tried to do a search on the Madeiran Archives for the surname > "Serena" but nothing comes up. ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429 "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
The surname Basenga is obviously an 'apelido' - a nickname. It may be that a family member served in the African colonies while in the Portuguese military (perhaps, the Angolan conflict). Several African tribes of that area were called Kasenga, Bazunga, and in Portuguese - Basenga. It makes for quite an interesting prospect for research.
Bob, If 1% of all Madeirans and their descendants, and we are talking millions, did a DNA test we would many answers. However, at this stage it becomes only one of the answers that may guide us. Some day we will have more. But you know anything beyond 1750 is rare for the islands. So what next? I suspect Katherine Borges will pick up this message. She knows a lot! Do you know that there is a village in Madeira named Camacha? Among other things it is famous for its dance (Bailinho da Camacha). I wonder if the Camacho family has something to do with the name. José -----Original Message----- From: BOBCAMSCPW@aol.com [mailto:BOBCAMSCPW@aol.com] Sent: June 6, 2006 3:35 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran archives website Thank you everyone for your information. I am not sure of the DNA thing, but how would someone check into that and what would be the cost for something like this? I am interested in it but no sure. Thanks Bob Camacho Researching the islands of Terceira for da Costa, and Evangelho, Graciousa for Reis, and Madeira for Camacho ============================== Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. New content added every business day. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx
Thank you everyone for your information. I am not sure of the DNA thing, but how would someone check into that and what would be the cost for something like this? I am interested in it but no sure. Thanks Bob Camacho Researching the islands of Terceira for da Costa, and Evangelho, Graciousa for Reis, and Madeira for Camacho
Bob, www.nationalgeographic.com/genographic is the web site and explains everything. The cost is approx $100.00. Lou On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 15:35:29 EDT BOBCAMSCPW@aol.com wrote: > Thank you everyone for your information. I am not sure >of the DNA thing, > but how would someone check into that and what would be >the cost for something > like this? I am interested in it but no sure. > Thanks > > > > Bob Camacho > Researching the islands of > Terceira for da Costa, and Evangelho, > Graciousa for Reis, and > Madeira for Camacho > > > > ============================== >Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death >Records. > New content added every business day. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx >
Thanks for joining our DNA group. As the co-administrator I have seen your results. We are a small group, but as you may know Katherine has started to use Portuguese DNA studies such as the Beleza study to "widen" the group. I also believe (this is only my opinion) that we may find matches in the Spanish groups, specifically Galician and Castillian groups. I know Katherine is continuing her work in that area. There is also a newsgroup of Portuguese Jews and their descendants all over the world, which I belong to, which will enlighten our research. As Madeirans and descendants of Portuguese we have to remain open to all possibilities. The least known aspect of our common history is our Jewish history. That can also be said about our Moorish and African history. Have a good day. José -----Original Message----- From: ABREU III,LOUIS [mailto:labreu@cablespeed.com] Sent: June 6, 2006 2:45 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran archives website Jose, I have done the National Geographic DNA testing, my results are posted on the Madeira DNA site. I am the only one so far with my particular Haplogroup....which is very interesting. Lou On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:07:18 -0400 "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> wrote: > Lou, > > I am not sure we should be stuck. Others may have a >different perspective and we shouldn't give up. > > In my opinion it will be hard to trace our families to >Portugal (mainland). That is if you believe in fairy >tales we all came from Minho and Algarve so that should >be easy. I am one of those that believe that our people >came from many places, including outside Portugal. DNA >testing may assist us in that but paper records will be >almost impossible. I am told that we only started keeping >parochial records in the late 17th century. There are >some before then but they didn't have to be registered. > > Also, the Madeiran Government has often requested that >Madeiran archives and other related documents be >transferred to the Regional Government from Lisbon. To >the best of my information this has been denied by the >Portuguese government. So if you want to do further >research you must go to the Torre do Tombo in Lisbon. > > Cheers, > José > > -----Original Message----- >From: ABREU III,LOUIS [mailto:labreu@cablespeed.com] > Sent: June 6, 2006 1:17 PM > To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran archives website > > Mr. Fernandes, > I have run into the exact situations that you > describe, it is what has made the search for my >ancestors > both fun and frustrating. I have often wondered how you > could determine the who/what/when/where......but by your > posting I would say I am stuck with no hope of tracing > from the island to the mainland. > > Regards, > Lou > > On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 11:23:58 -0400 > "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> > wrote: >> Bob, >> >> I can only share my experience as a native-born Madeiran >>who continues to have strong links to the region and >>opinions... >> >> Camacho is a well-know name in Madeira but in my opinion >>is not equivalent to Smith. Fernandes, Gonçalves, Freitas >>etc. are more common. >> >> Over 500 years of colonization many decisions have been >>made. Anything could happen and it did happen. Some by >>priests others by Portuguese officials. Surnames can be >>all over the place. The old Madeira was also very class >>based. Some names denoted upper class. Some families with >>common names and who became rich wanted to be different. >>Thus you have Pereira Camacho to distinguish from others. >>Sometimes, if you married "up", the children took the >>most "rich" name. Sometimes they added a "de" and >>sometimes that "de" was taken away by officials and >>priests. >> >> Although all Madeirans have somewhat related (DNA could >>prove that) not all surnames denote a common ancestor. >> >> Many don't want to talk about it, but we had slaves who >>took the owner's name. We had Jews and moors that changed >>names. Pereira, for example denotes Jewish ancestry. >>There was a time that some families used the common >>Spanish tradition of naming their children after their >>mother. Therefore you would be known by your mother's >>surname. There were many children of "rich men" who were >>not given the father's surname. Usually children of young >>(poor) women who worked for rich families. Therefore you >>have "pai incognito". Let me tell you that father was not >>unknown. Everybody knew it but they were not "allowed" to >>name him. >> >> Madeirans changed surnames. It was easy to do it. Money >>and influence could buy anything. >> >> In my opinion there are the Pereiras and then there are >>the Pereira Camacho famnilies. It would be interesting to >>find out when that started and what prompted it. >> >> I don't think I have added to your research but all of >>the best. >> >> José Fernandes >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >>From: BOBCAMSCPW@aol.com [mailto:BOBCAMSCPW@aol.com] >> Sent: June 5, 2006 11:04 PM >> To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran archives website >> >> thank you everyone for the information. I now have a >>question about my >> family in Madeira. When I was doing my research I was >>told by someone that also >> was doing research in Madeira that I would need to >>research everyone with the >> middle name of Pereira because they would be related to >>each other. Do you >> know if that is true or not. I was told that the Last >> name of Camacho is >> like Smith there are so many of them that why you could >>tell who is related to >> whom was by there middle name unless one of the women >>got married to another >> Camacho with a different middle name then you would have >>to research that >> name. >> The main reason I ask this is that I have done some >>research and found that >> most of the surname are all the same. Using either >>Joao, Jose, and so on, >> but everyone has had the middle name of Pereira and then >>Camacho. >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> Bob Camacho >> Researching the islands of >> Terceira for da Costa, and Evangelho, >> Graciousa for Reis, and >> Madeira for Camacho >> >> >> >> ============================== >> Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your >>family and the >> areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the >>last 12 months. >> Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >> >> >> >> >> >> ============================== >> Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your >>family and the >> areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the >>last 12 months. >> Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >> > > > ============================== > New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search >for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with >family and friends. Learn more: >http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429 > > > > > > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not >only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx > ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
Good luck with your passport quest. This is the portuguese site on acquiring portuguese citizenship (in order to get a passport you need to be a citizen) and you can get it if you are the child of portuguese parents or married to a portuguese spouse, or adopted by portuguese parents. http://www.dgrn.mj.pt/rcentr/aquisnac.asp It is in portuguese. As for your family I suggest you try to find any marriage, birth, or death records of the children of your great grandparents first. If any of their kids was born, married, or died in S.Africa it should state where the parents are from. Check the catholic church's records too for the same records and also look for newspaper obituaries. If your ggrandfather was from Lisbon chances are they may have married there, and without a parish you will not be able to find anything. Good luck, Luis Beal Marcia & Roland <roland1@wol.co.za> wrote: Good evening. My name is Marcia and I live in Durban, KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa. I have just been reading with interest all the mails that have come through to me from the mailing list regarding the Madeiran Archives Website. I also do not speak Portuguese and am having great difficulty in tracing my ancestry. My great-grandparents were born in Portugal. My great-grandmother was Maria Clara (Calderia) de Abreu/de Abreau/Deabreu (not sure of the spelling). She was born in Madeira but unfortunately the parish is unknown to me (I have a faint suspicion though that it may very well have been Funchal - don't ask me why, I just get these feelings sometimes). My great-grandfather was Marceal/Marcial/Marcel Vieira Serena and he was born in Lisbon. They both came through to South Africa in the early 1900's (I think). I today tried to do a search on the Madeiran Archives for the surname "Serena" but nothing comes up. I came up with lots of Vieira's and de Abreau's but nothing at all that comes close to my great-grandparents' names. I have been assured that Serena is definitely a Portuguese surname so can't understand why nobody else has that surname. I have basically hit a "brick wall" with my research. I have so far been unable to obtain birth certificates or any sort of family record from my grandmother's family members. Unfortunately the person who probably would have remembered the most (my grandmother), passed away in 1990. My great-grandparents' childrens' names were - De Lourdes Serena (died at age 19) (I think she may have been born in Portugal), "Fatti" (not sure if this is a Portuguese name or a nickname - He may also very well have been born in Portugal) Vieira Serena, Luiz Jose Vieira Serena, Antonio Vieira Serena, Deloures Serena, Theresa Maria Serena (born in South Africa I think), Beatrice (Beatriz) Serena (born in South Africa), Angelina Clara Serena (my deceased grandmother) (definitely born in South Africa) and Lawrence (Lourenco) Serena (he died as a baby from consumption). The reason I started my research in the first place was to try and see whether I would be able to obtain my Portuguese Passport through my maternal grandparents - So far the Portuguese Embassy in South Africa has been most unhelpful in that they refuse to give me any information as to whether I may or may not be entitled to a Portuguese passport. But, as my research has gone on, my curiosity has just gotten the better of me. My maternal side of the family seems to think that there is some huge secret about my great-grandfather's departure from Portugal - something to the effect that he could have stolen someone else's surname - but this has not been confirmed. Is there somebody out there that can perhaps help me in my quest for my heritage? Kind regards, Marcia Bezuidenhout ============================== Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. New content added every business day. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Lou, I am not sure we should be stuck. Others may have a different perspective and we shouldn't give up. In my opinion it will be hard to trace our families to Portugal (mainland). That is if you believe in fairy tales we all came from Minho and Algarve so that should be easy. I am one of those that believe that our people came from many places, including outside Portugal. DNA testing may assist us in that but paper records will be almost impossible. I am told that we only started keeping parochial records in the late 17th century. There are some before then but they didn't have to be registered. Also, the Madeiran Government has often requested that Madeiran archives and other related documents be transferred to the Regional Government from Lisbon. To the best of my information this has been denied by the Portuguese government. So if you want to do further research you must go to the Torre do Tombo in Lisbon. Cheers, José -----Original Message----- From: ABREU III,LOUIS [mailto:labreu@cablespeed.com] Sent: June 6, 2006 1:17 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran archives website Mr. Fernandes, I have run into the exact situations that you describe, it is what has made the search for my ancestors both fun and frustrating. I have often wondered how you could determine the who/what/when/where......but by your posting I would say I am stuck with no hope of tracing from the island to the mainland. Regards, Lou On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 11:23:58 -0400 "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> wrote: > Bob, > > I can only share my experience as a native-born Madeiran >who continues to have strong links to the region and >opinions... > > Camacho is a well-know name in Madeira but in my opinion >is not equivalent to Smith. Fernandes, Gonçalves, Freitas >etc. are more common. > > Over 500 years of colonization many decisions have been >made. Anything could happen and it did happen. Some by >priests others by Portuguese officials. Surnames can be >all over the place. The old Madeira was also very class >based. Some names denoted upper class. Some families with >common names and who became rich wanted to be different. >Thus you have Pereira Camacho to distinguish from others. >Sometimes, if you married "up", the children took the >most "rich" name. Sometimes they added a "de" and >sometimes that "de" was taken away by officials and >priests. > > Although all Madeirans have somewhat related (DNA could >prove that) not all surnames denote a common ancestor. > > Many don't want to talk about it, but we had slaves who >took the owner's name. We had Jews and moors that changed >names. Pereira, for example denotes Jewish ancestry. >There was a time that some families used the common >Spanish tradition of naming their children after their >mother. Therefore you would be known by your mother's >surname. There were many children of "rich men" who were >not given the father's surname. Usually children of young >(poor) women who worked for rich families. Therefore you >have "pai incognito". Let me tell you that father was not >unknown. Everybody knew it but they were not "allowed" to >name him. > > Madeirans changed surnames. It was easy to do it. Money >and influence could buy anything. > > In my opinion there are the Pereiras and then there are >the Pereira Camacho famnilies. It would be interesting to >find out when that started and what prompted it. > > I don't think I have added to your research but all of >the best. > > José Fernandes > > > -----Original Message----- >From: BOBCAMSCPW@aol.com [mailto:BOBCAMSCPW@aol.com] > Sent: June 5, 2006 11:04 PM > To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran archives website > > thank you everyone for the information. I now have a >question about my > family in Madeira. When I was doing my research I was >told by someone that also > was doing research in Madeira that I would need to >research everyone with the > middle name of Pereira because they would be related to >each other. Do you > know if that is true or not. I was told that the Last > name of Camacho is > like Smith there are so many of them that why you could >tell who is related to > whom was by there middle name unless one of the women >got married to another > Camacho with a different middle name then you would have >to research that > name. > The main reason I ask this is that I have done some >research and found that > most of the surname are all the same. Using either >Joao, Jose, and so on, > but everyone has had the middle name of Pereira and then >Camacho. > > Thanks > > > > Bob Camacho > Researching the islands of > Terceira for da Costa, and Evangelho, > Graciousa for Reis, and > Madeira for Camacho > > > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your >family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the >last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > > > > > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your >family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the >last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429
Jose, I have done the National Geographic DNA testing, my results are posted on the Madeira DNA site. I am the only one so far with my particular Haplogroup....which is very interesting. Lou On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:07:18 -0400 "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> wrote: > Lou, > > I am not sure we should be stuck. Others may have a >different perspective and we shouldn't give up. > > In my opinion it will be hard to trace our families to >Portugal (mainland). That is if you believe in fairy >tales we all came from Minho and Algarve so that should >be easy. I am one of those that believe that our people >came from many places, including outside Portugal. DNA >testing may assist us in that but paper records will be >almost impossible. I am told that we only started keeping >parochial records in the late 17th century. There are >some before then but they didn't have to be registered. > > Also, the Madeiran Government has often requested that >Madeiran archives and other related documents be >transferred to the Regional Government from Lisbon. To >the best of my information this has been denied by the >Portuguese government. So if you want to do further >research you must go to the Torre do Tombo in Lisbon. > > Cheers, > José > > -----Original Message----- >From: ABREU III,LOUIS [mailto:labreu@cablespeed.com] > Sent: June 6, 2006 1:17 PM > To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran archives website > > Mr. Fernandes, > I have run into the exact situations that you > describe, it is what has made the search for my >ancestors > both fun and frustrating. I have often wondered how you > could determine the who/what/when/where......but by your > posting I would say I am stuck with no hope of tracing > from the island to the mainland. > > Regards, > Lou > > On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 11:23:58 -0400 > "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> > wrote: >> Bob, >> >> I can only share my experience as a native-born Madeiran >>who continues to have strong links to the region and >>opinions... >> >> Camacho is a well-know name in Madeira but in my opinion >>is not equivalent to Smith. Fernandes, Gonçalves, Freitas >>etc. are more common. >> >> Over 500 years of colonization many decisions have been >>made. Anything could happen and it did happen. Some by >>priests others by Portuguese officials. Surnames can be >>all over the place. The old Madeira was also very class >>based. Some names denoted upper class. Some families with >>common names and who became rich wanted to be different. >>Thus you have Pereira Camacho to distinguish from others. >>Sometimes, if you married "up", the children took the >>most "rich" name. Sometimes they added a "de" and >>sometimes that "de" was taken away by officials and >>priests. >> >> Although all Madeirans have somewhat related (DNA could >>prove that) not all surnames denote a common ancestor. >> >> Many don't want to talk about it, but we had slaves who >>took the owner's name. We had Jews and moors that changed >>names. Pereira, for example denotes Jewish ancestry. >>There was a time that some families used the common >>Spanish tradition of naming their children after their >>mother. Therefore you would be known by your mother's >>surname. There were many children of "rich men" who were >>not given the father's surname. Usually children of young >>(poor) women who worked for rich families. Therefore you >>have "pai incognito". Let me tell you that father was not >>unknown. Everybody knew it but they were not "allowed" to >>name him. >> >> Madeirans changed surnames. It was easy to do it. Money >>and influence could buy anything. >> >> In my opinion there are the Pereiras and then there are >>the Pereira Camacho famnilies. It would be interesting to >>find out when that started and what prompted it. >> >> I don't think I have added to your research but all of >>the best. >> >> José Fernandes >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >>From: BOBCAMSCPW@aol.com [mailto:BOBCAMSCPW@aol.com] >> Sent: June 5, 2006 11:04 PM >> To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran archives website >> >> thank you everyone for the information. I now have a >>question about my >> family in Madeira. When I was doing my research I was >>told by someone that also >> was doing research in Madeira that I would need to >>research everyone with the >> middle name of Pereira because they would be related to >>each other. Do you >> know if that is true or not. I was told that the Last >> name of Camacho is >> like Smith there are so many of them that why you could >>tell who is related to >> whom was by there middle name unless one of the women >>got married to another >> Camacho with a different middle name then you would have >>to research that >> name. >> The main reason I ask this is that I have done some >>research and found that >> most of the surname are all the same. Using either >>Joao, Jose, and so on, >> but everyone has had the middle name of Pereira and then >>Camacho. >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> Bob Camacho >> Researching the islands of >> Terceira for da Costa, and Evangelho, >> Graciousa for Reis, and >> Madeira for Camacho >> >> >> >> ============================== >> Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your >>family and the >> areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the >>last 12 months. >> Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >> >> >> >> >> >> ============================== >> Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your >>family and the >> areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the >>last 12 months. >> Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >> > > > ============================== > New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search >for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with >family and friends. Learn more: >http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429 > > > > > > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not >only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx >
Mr. Fernandes, I have run into the exact situations that you describe, it is what has made the search for my ancestors both fun and frustrating. I have often wondered how you could determine the who/what/when/where......but by your posting I would say I am stuck with no hope of tracing from the island to the mainland. Regards, Lou On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 11:23:58 -0400 "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> wrote: > Bob, > > I can only share my experience as a native-born Madeiran >who continues to have strong links to the region and >opinions... > > Camacho is a well-know name in Madeira but in my opinion >is not equivalent to Smith. Fernandes, Gonçalves, Freitas >etc. are more common. > > Over 500 years of colonization many decisions have been >made. Anything could happen and it did happen. Some by >priests others by Portuguese officials. Surnames can be >all over the place. The old Madeira was also very class >based. Some names denoted upper class. Some families with >common names and who became rich wanted to be different. >Thus you have Pereira Camacho to distinguish from others. >Sometimes, if you married "up", the children took the >most "rich" name. Sometimes they added a "de" and >sometimes that "de" was taken away by officials and >priests. > > Although all Madeirans have somewhat related (DNA could >prove that) not all surnames denote a common ancestor. > > Many don't want to talk about it, but we had slaves who >took the owner's name. We had Jews and moors that changed >names. Pereira, for example denotes Jewish ancestry. >There was a time that some families used the common >Spanish tradition of naming their children after their >mother. Therefore you would be known by your mother's >surname. There were many children of "rich men" who were >not given the father's surname. Usually children of young >(poor) women who worked for rich families. Therefore you >have "pai incognito". Let me tell you that father was not >unknown. Everybody knew it but they were not "allowed" to >name him. > > Madeirans changed surnames. It was easy to do it. Money >and influence could buy anything. > > In my opinion there are the Pereiras and then there are >the Pereira Camacho famnilies. It would be interesting to >find out when that started and what prompted it. > > I don't think I have added to your research but all of >the best. > > José Fernandes > > > -----Original Message----- >From: BOBCAMSCPW@aol.com [mailto:BOBCAMSCPW@aol.com] > Sent: June 5, 2006 11:04 PM > To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran archives website > > thank you everyone for the information. I now have a >question about my > family in Madeira. When I was doing my research I was >told by someone that also > was doing research in Madeira that I would need to >research everyone with the > middle name of Pereira because they would be related to >each other. Do you > know if that is true or not. I was told that the Last > name of Camacho is > like Smith there are so many of them that why you could >tell who is related to > whom was by there middle name unless one of the women >got married to another > Camacho with a different middle name then you would have >to research that > name. > The main reason I ask this is that I have done some >research and found that > most of the surname are all the same. Using either >Joao, Jose, and so on, > but everyone has had the middle name of Pereira and then >Camacho. > > Thanks > > > > Bob Camacho > Researching the islands of > Terceira for da Costa, and Evangelho, > Graciousa for Reis, and > Madeira for Camacho > > > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your >family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the >last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > > > > > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your >family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the >last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >
On Tuesday 06 June 2006 11:23 am, Fernandes, Jose wrote: > I can only share my experience as a native-born Madeiran who continues to > have strong links to the region and opinions... > <edited> Mr. Fernandes - Thanks for that very helpful post! I for one have run into surname irregularities among my ancestors. This helped clear things up for me... Thanks again! JL
Bob, I can only share my experience as a native-born Madeiran who continues to have strong links to the region and opinions... Camacho is a well-know name in Madeira but in my opinion is not equivalent to Smith. Fernandes, Gonçalves, Freitas etc. are more common. Over 500 years of colonization many decisions have been made. Anything could happen and it did happen. Some by priests others by Portuguese officials. Surnames can be all over the place. The old Madeira was also very class based. Some names denoted upper class. Some families with common names and who became rich wanted to be different. Thus you have Pereira Camacho to distinguish from others. Sometimes, if you married "up", the children took the most "rich" name. Sometimes they added a "de" and sometimes that "de" was taken away by officials and priests. Although all Madeirans have somewhat related (DNA could prove that) not all surnames denote a common ancestor. Many don't want to talk about it, but we had slaves who took the owner's name. We had Jews and moors that changed names. Pereira, for example denotes Jewish ancestry. There was a time that some families used the common Spanish tradition of naming their children after their mother. Therefore you would be known by your mother's surname. There were many children of "rich men" who were not given the father's surname. Usually children of young (poor) women who worked for rich families. Therefore you have "pai incognito". Let me tell you that father was not unknown. Everybody knew it but they were not "allowed" to name him. Madeirans changed surnames. It was easy to do it. Money and influence could buy anything. In my opinion there are the Pereiras and then there are the Pereira Camacho famnilies. It would be interesting to find out when that started and what prompted it. I don't think I have added to your research but all of the best. José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: BOBCAMSCPW@aol.com [mailto:BOBCAMSCPW@aol.com] Sent: June 5, 2006 11:04 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran archives website thank you everyone for the information. I now have a question about my family in Madeira. When I was doing my research I was told by someone that also was doing research in Madeira that I would need to research everyone with the middle name of Pereira because they would be related to each other. Do you know if that is true or not. I was told that the Last name of Camacho is like Smith there are so many of them that why you could tell who is related to whom was by there middle name unless one of the women got married to another Camacho with a different middle name then you would have to research that name. The main reason I ask this is that I have done some research and found that most of the surname are all the same. Using either Joao, Jose, and so on, but everyone has had the middle name of Pereira and then Camacho. Thanks Bob Camacho Researching the islands of Terceira for da Costa, and Evangelho, Graciousa for Reis, and Madeira for Camacho ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx