How far back have you gone with your Andrade ancestry of Madeira? Pat Silva Corbera Mary Alice Yost <myost0637@comcast.net> wrote: Could someone please look up this family and give me any information about them? Jose D'Andrade and Maria Rosario had a son, Gabriel Andrade, born 9 Sep 1898 in Funchal, Madeira. Gabriel married Helene Rodrigues, born 1905 in Funchal. Thanks!

Mary, I have several "o Galego" too. It may have been used as a nickname for someone that worked really hard (trabalhar como um Galego). One of my ancestors was "o Galego" because he was born in a (portuguese) village real close to the Northern border, i.e., near Galicia. Luis already told you about GALEGO and PERA, but she left the best part for me! :-) You may translate Couto in several ways. In the middle Ages it was the land owned by a noble (cottage?) - that's where another portuguese name came from (Coutinho - little Couto); it may also be a protected area; it also is a arm or leg (when you miss a hand or foot); Couto is a common family name in Portugal. You are absolutely right!! People should not assume they are Jews just because of their family names. It's just like saying you, Mary, are Jewish and I (Luis) am German because of our names (Maria & Ludwig). :-) If you have Pereira and Sampaio names you probably DO NOT descend from Jews. :-) Most of them changed their names into the most common portuguese names, the patronymics: Gonçalves (formerly, son of Gonçalo); Fernandes (son of Fernando); Nunes (son of Nunes); Rodrigues (son of Rodrigo), etc. But, as the Jews wanted to mingle in the society - and confuse the Inquisition? -, it might happen that the son of a "Gonçalves" and a "Nunes" had a completely different family name, coming out of nowhere, like "Castro", or "Magalhaes". Some authors say that, when King Manuel ordered the Jews to quit Portugal - unless they became christians - there were over 100.000 Jews in a population of about 1,000,000. As they were not allowed to cross Spain, and the vessels in those times were not prepared to carry douzains of passengers, the great majority remained in Portugal... and, after some generations, they almost disappeared - mingled! Besides, in those times church records were NOT mandatory. It only became mandatory by the end of the next century, i.e., a couple of generations later. (UN-)Fortunately, many new-christians maintained their identity, but I believe that most of them simply "disappeared" in the portuguese society. The only way you can BE SURE your ancient ancestor was a Jew, if all the others are catholic, is when you find a note in a marriage record saying that one of them (groom or bride) is a new-christian (cristao-novo, or simply xn) - opposed to old-christian (cristao-velho, or xv). I recently wrote a post saying that I ONLY found one out of 262,144 17xgrandparents was a "new-christian". Even her was not a "pure" Jew, since the records go to her grandparents and only 1 of the 4 is "xn", all the others are "xv". So, I should say that from my 1,048,576 19xgrandparents, I only found one x.n. BTW. "Moura" does not mean the first of the line was a moorish. There are lots of different families called MOURA because it's a toponymic! There's a village called Moura. Luis K W Lisboa_Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Galego - someone from Galiza (spain) Couto-It is a last name too but I am not sure what they mean when they call it to someone. Luis KW might Pêra- means pear, they guy might have had a pear orchard, or he might have had a beard just on the chin area. Luis Beal tiamaria tiamaria@frostdesign.com wrote: This is a question for the group regarding the various "nicknames" and other attachments I have seen while researching my family. I have found some descriptives that I can understand, ie: o rico, o pequeno. Sometimes words appear that I know are occupations; ie: pescador, lavrador, etc. However- does anyone know what "O Couto" is? or - "O Pera"? Also- someone in my line is "O gallego". I could not find that in a Portuguese dictionary. (Unfortunately I can only seem to find Brazilian Portuguese dictionaries!) I know in Spanish a "Gallego" can be a slang term for a Spaniard, or it can mean specifically a Galician or Castilian, or that it can sometimes be used in a derisive manner, depending on context. Any ideas? BTW- since I have once again seen references to Sephardic ancestry, that certain family names (Pereira,Sampaio) MAY indicate it- how does one REALLY know? I mean- these people are long dead. But what makes people so sure that their ancestors were indeed jewish? Now- I have found some people in my line who were Pardo- which I understand means mulatto and Moura- moorish. So it would appear that I have black and moorish ancestors. But the point in question- is there something in the various records that defines jewish heritage? If people are simply basing belief on family surnames- well that is liking saying everyone whose last name ends in -stein is jewish because a lot of German jews used names ending in -stein. I love this forum! It is great for exchanging ideas and information. MAry da Silva Frost

This is a question for the group regarding the various "nicknames" and other attachments I have seen while researching my family. I have found some descriptives that I can understand, ie: o rico, o pequeno. Sometimes words appear that I know are occupations; ie: pescador, lavrador, etc. However- does anyone know what "O Couto" is? or - "O Pera"? Also- someone in my line is "O gallego". I could not find that in a Portuguese dictionary. (Unfortunately I can only seem to find Brazilian Portuguese dictionaries!) I know in Spanish a "Gallego" can be a slang term for a Spaniard, or it can mean specifically a Galician or Castilian, or that it can sometimes be used in a derisive manner, depending on context. Any ideas? BTW- since I have once again seen references to Sephardic ancestry, that certain family names (Pereira,Sampaio) MAY indicate it- how does one REALLY know? I mean- these people are long dead. But what makes people so sure that their ancestors were indeed jewish? Now- I have found some people in my line who were Pardo- which I understand means mulatto and Moura- moorish. So it would appear that I have black and moorish ancestors. But the point in question- is there something in the various records that defines jewish heritage? If people are simply basing belief on family surnames- well that is liking saying everyone whose last name ends in -stein is jewish because a lot of German jews used names ending in -stein. I love this forum! It is great for exchanging ideas and information. MAry da Silva Frost

Thank you Linda! My 7 great grandparents Pedro Fernandes and Isabel Henriques were married in Machico in 1648. Their marriage record states his parents were Pedro Fernandes and (what appears to be- Ana) da Silva and that they were from Arco de Calheta. I thank you for making this lookup. I will hold on to this info until the time I am able to further pursue that particular line. It appears that Isabel Henrique's family may also come from Arco de Calheta but I do not know when. I have not yet located her baptism record or the marriage record of her parents, but I have found the baptism of her sister in Machico in 1624. So- they were living in Machico at that point in time. Mary da Silva Frost

I have put together, at this website http://www.geocities.com/papagaia2/alcunhas.htm some of the "alcunhas/nicknames," that appear in my ancestry. . "os papagaios," is my "da Silva Se' family alcunha. The "da Silva Se' surname began with the marriage of a Manuel Goncalves Se' and Maria da Silva in the mid 1600s. Their descendants became known by the "da Silva Se' surname for generations, both on my paternal as well as my maternal lines. When my maternal grandparents migrated to the USA in 1906, they became known as "da Silva." Over the years some family members used "de Silva," and others shortened it even further to just "Silva.". Pat Silva Corbera Luis Beal <luisbeal@yahoo.com> wrote: Galego - someone from Galiza (spain) Couto-It is a last name too but I am not sure what they mean when they call it to someone. Luis KW might Pêra- means pear, they guy might have had a pear orchard, or he might have had a beard just on the chin area. Luis Beal tiamaria wrote: This is a question for the group regarding the various "nicknames" and other attachments I have seen while researching my family. I have found some descriptives that I can understand, ie: o rico, o pequeno. Sometimes words appear that I know are occupations; ie: pescador, lavrador, etc. However- does anyone know what "O Couto" is? or - "O Pera"? Also- someone in my line is "O gallego". I could not find that in a Portuguese dictionary. (Unfortunately I can only seem to find Brazilian Portuguese dictionaries!) I know in Spanish a "Gallego" can be a slang term for a Spaniard, or it can mean specifically a Galician or Castilian, or that it can sometimes be used in a derisive manner, depending on context. Any ideas? BTW- since I have once again seen references to Sephardic ancestry, that certain family names (Pereira,Sampaio) MAY indicate it- how does one REALLY know? I mean- these people are long dead. But what makes people so sure that their ancestors were indeed jewish? Now- I have found some people in my line who were Pardo- which I understand means mulatto and Moura- moorish. So it would appear that I have black and moorish ancestors. But the point in question- is there something in the various records that defines jewish heritage? If people are simply basing belief on family surnames- well that is liking saying everyone whose last name ends in -stein is jewish because a lot of German jews used names ending in -stein. I love this forum! It is great for exchanging ideas and information. MAry da Silva Frost ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx

Galego - someone from Galiza (spain) Couto-It is a last name too but I am not sure what they mean when they call it to someone. Luis KW might Pêra- means pear, they guy might have had a pear orchard, or he might have had a beard just on the chin area. Luis Beal tiamaria <tiamaria@frostdesign.com> wrote: This is a question for the group regarding the various "nicknames" and other attachments I have seen while researching my family. I have found some descriptives that I can understand, ie: o rico, o pequeno. Sometimes words appear that I know are occupations; ie: pescador, lavrador, etc. However- does anyone know what "O Couto" is? or - "O Pera"? Also- someone in my line is "O gallego". I could not find that in a Portuguese dictionary. (Unfortunately I can only seem to find Brazilian Portuguese dictionaries!) I know in Spanish a "Gallego" can be a slang term for a Spaniard, or it can mean specifically a Galician or Castilian, or that it can sometimes be used in a derisive manner, depending on context. Any ideas? BTW- since I have once again seen references to Sephardic ancestry, that certain family names (Pereira,Sampaio) MAY indicate it- how does one REALLY know? I mean- these people are long dead. But what makes people so sure that their ancestors were indeed jewish? Now- I have found some people in my line who were Pardo- which I understand means mulatto and Moura- moorish. So it would appear that I have black and moorish ancestors. But the point in question- is there something in the various records that defines jewish heritage? If people are simply basing belief on family surnames- well that is liking saying everyone whose last name ends in -stein is jewish because a lot of German jews used names ending in -stein. I love this forum! It is great for exchanging ideas and information. MAry da Silva Frost ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

To Mary da Silva Frost Pedro Fernandes married Anna da Silva 7 Oct 1627 in Arco da Calheta. Record lists Pedro Fernandes being the parent of the groom, no wife is listed. Parents of the bride is Antonio Esteves and Antonia da Silva. Linda Teixeira Crandall

Hi Marcia, As a former South African now living in Canada, I know the challenges you face in accessing the information. Here's a website with some helpful links if you haven't already accessed it - maybe they can shed some light on getting 'quick access' to documents. http://www.cyndislist.com/soafrica.htm It may be worthwhile contacting one or two of the museums (links on cindy's list) or the genealogical society of South Africa http://www.ggsa.info/. I'm thinking that if you're looking for documents going back to the 1900's, South Africa at that time was the Union of South Africa under British rule, so maybe the documents are not at the homeland affairs, but in another archive. When my mother's parents immigrated to SA in the 1940's they had to get all sorts of documentation - id cards for starters, so there must be records somewhere for the year they arrived. If you can access the 'full death certificate' not the abridged version, it usually states where the person was born and who the parents are. Also the cemeteries keep records of when people died and were buried - that way you can get an accurate 'death date'. Same with marriage certificates - ask for the 'full version'. You have to look for different spelling of the names, remembering that the folk who were often in charge of filling out the information; English was not their first language, never mind a foreign one. I have one relative for example who is Eulanda, in English Yolanda but her birth certificate is Joulanda. Happy hunting! Janette Chun -----Original Message----- From: Marcia & Roland [mailto:roland1@wol.co.za] Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 11:53 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran Archives Website Hi Luis Thank you so much for that information. Ana shed some light on the "Calderia" surname - she also informed me that it was "Caldeira". There is some sort of a dispute regarding the "Marcel" - our archives here in SA have his name spelled two different ways "Marceal" and "Marsial" - so I'm a bit lost there. I'm waiting for the one researcher to come back to me regarding the documents in the archives. Unfortunately the one lot is contained at the Pretoria archives and I live in Durban so it is difficult for me to lay my hands on them. Hence the need for somebody else to do it for me. I must say I have been having great difficulty in finding the name "Serena" - thank you for the Portuguese telephone book link - I will most certainly have a look at that. The only problem with the name "Fatti" is that it was a nickname which belonged to a male relative. I pulled out my Family Sheet for Serena/De Abreu and some of the information regarding my great-grandparents' children(which I had forgotten) is as follows:- Lourdes/Delourdes/De Lurdes - Female - Deceased - Date of birth unknown to me - Place of birth unknown to me - Date of death - uknown to me - Place of death - unknown to me - Died approximately age 19 - She was a Down Syndrome child. Avelino Vieira Serena ("Fatti") - Male - Deceased - Date of birth unknown to me - Place of birth unknown to me - Date of death - 2002/3 (I am still trying to get hold of the Government Gazette containing his death details)- Place of death - Johannesburg, SA Luiz Jose Vieira Serena - Male - Deceased - Date of birth 08.11.1928 - Place of birth unknown to me - Date of death - 07.12.03 - Place of death - Durban, SA Theresa Maria Serena - Female - Deceased - Date of birth 14.08.193? - Place of birth - unknown to me - Date of death - April 2005 - Place of death - Durban, SA Angelina Clara Serena (my grandmother) - Female - Deceased - Date of birth 06.08.1936 - Place of birth - Durban, SA - Date of death - 20.08.1990 - Place of death - Durban, SA Deloures ... Serena - Female - Deceased - Date of birth - 09.02.1939 - Place of birth - unknown to me - Date of death - 16.09.1994 - Place of death - Cape Town, SA Beatriz (Beatrice) ... Serena - Female - Still Living in SA - Date of birth - ... - Place of birth - ... (I am working on this one - she is rather reluctant to give me any information - she apparently went to Portugal with Deloures ... on a visit to try and get information on the family - they apparently did get information but now all of a sudden nobody knows anything) Cecilia ... Serena - Female - Still Living in SA - Date of birth - ... - Place of birth - (I am also still working on this one - also rather reluctant to give me information - I will ask my mom to give her a call) Antonio ... Serena - Male - Still Living - Date of birth - ... - Place of birth - (I am going to ask my mother to give him or his wife a call) Lourenco (Lawrence)... Serena - Male - Deceased - Date of birth - unknown to me - Place of birth - unknown to me - Date of death - unknown to me - Place of death - unknown to me - Died approximately 9 months of age (we think he had Consumption) Unfortunately my deceased grandmother was not a Portuguese Citizen - I have a copy of her birth certificate and she was born in South Africa. The only link we have with Portugal at this stage is my great-grandmother and great-grandfather. I will most definitely not give up - I am too curious to find out more - and all the secrecy just adds to that curiosity! Thank you so much for your help - most appreciated - you have really shed some more light on my ancestry! God Bless! Kind regards, Marcia -----Original Message----- From: Luis K W [mailto:luis_k_w@clix.pt] Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 3:32 AM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran Archives Website Marcia The correct spelling of those names is: CALDEIRA (not Calderia) de ABREU MARCEL SERENA is an uncommon family name, but it STILL EXISTS IN LISBON (you made a mistake looking for this name in Madeira. Lisbon is in mainland Portugal, not in Madeira!). Take a look into the portuguese telephone book on-line at www.118.pt. FATI is a neek name for FATIMA (or MARIA DE FATIMA). DELOURES should be DELORES, but is not common in Portugal (it looks too castillian to me). Could it be "Maria de Lurdes"? You could be entitled to Portuguese citizenship if your parents were portuguese. Was your deceased grandmother portuguese? If you want to look further in your ancestry, you have to find DOCUMENTS telling you 3 things: DATES (birth or marriage) PLACE (parish where it took place) NAMES (full names, and/or parents names) And those documents have to be found right there where you are. Otherwise, you'll be looking for something almost impossible to find. You must try EVERYTHING: Your parents and grandparents birth and marriage documents: Passengers lists from the boats coming to S.A. Army lists. Census. Etc. And, above all, you must NEVER QUIT. Good Luck Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- > From: Marcia & Roland > Date: Terça-feira, 6 de Junho de 2006 19:11 > Good evening > My name is Marcia and I live in Durban, KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa. I have > just been reading with interest all the mails that have come through to me > from the mailing list regarding the Madeiran Archives Website. I also do > not speak Portuguese and am having great difficulty in tracing my ancestry. > My great-grandparents were born in Portugal. My great-grandmother was Maria > Clara (Calderia) de Abreu/de Abreau/Deabreu (not sure of the spelling). She > was born in Madeira but unfortunately the parish is unknown to me (I have a > faint suspicion though that it may very well have been Funchal - don't ask > me why, I just get these feelings sometimes). My great-grandfather was > Marceal/Marcial/Marcel Vieira Serena and he was born in Lisbon. They both > came through to South Africa in the early 1900's (I think). > I today tried to do a search on the Madeiran Archives for the surname > "Serena" but nothing comes up. I came up with lots of Vieira's and de > Abreau's but nothing at all that comes close to my great-grandparents' > names. I have been assured that Serena is definitely a Portuguese surname > so can't understand why nobody else has that surname. I have basically hit > a "brick wall" with my research. I have so far been unable to obtain birth > certificates or any sort of family record from my grandmother's family > members. Unfortunately the person who probably would have remembered the > most (my grandmother), passed away in 1990. > My great-grandparents' childrens' names were - De Lourdes Serena (died at > age 19) (I think she may have been born in Portugal), "Fatti" (not sure if > this is a Portuguese name or a nickname - He may also very well have been > born in Portugal) Vieira Serena, Luiz Jose Vieira Serena, Antonio Vieira > Serena, Deloures Serena, Theresa Maria Serena (born in South Africa I > think), Beatrice (Beatriz) Serena (born in South Africa), Angelina Clara > Serena (my deceased grandmother) (definitely born in South Africa) and > Lawrence (Lourenco) Serena (he died as a baby from consumption). > The reason I started my research in the first place was to try and see > whether I would be able to obtain my Portuguese Passport through my maternal > grandparents - So far the Portuguese Embassy in South Africa has been most > unhelpful in that they refuse to give me any information as to whether I may > or may not be entitled to a Portuguese passport. But, as my research has > gone on, my curiosity has just gotten the better of me. > My maternal side of the family seems to think that there is some huge secret > about my great-grandfather's departure from Portugal - something to the > effect that he could have stolen someone else's surname - but this has not > been confirmed. > Is there somebody out there that can perhaps help me in my quest for my > heritage? > Kind regards, > Marcia Bezuidenhout ============================== View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find marriage announcements and more. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

Ooops! I wrote a msg (fortunately it didn't show), saying that Marçal is only a family name... :-) Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- My only contribution to this is a wild guess. There are families named Marçal in Madeira, both as a first name and last name. -----Original Message----- From: Luis K W [mailto:luis_k_w@clix.pt] Sent: June 7, 2006 8:31 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran Archives Website Sorry for this, Marcia. This msg should have been sent yesterday! Luis ---------- From: Luis K W luis_k_w@clix.pt To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran Archives Website Date: Quarta-feira, 7 de Junho de 2006 2:31 Marcia The correct spelling of those names is: CALDEIRA (not Calderia) de ABREU MARCEL SERENA is an uncommon family name, but it STILL EXISTS IN LISBON (you made a mistake looking for this name in Madeira. Lisbon is in mainland Portugal, not in Madeira!). Take a look into the portuguese telephone book on-line at www.118.pt. FATI is a neek name for FATIMA (or MARIA DE FATIMA). DELOURES should be DELORES, but is not common in Portugal (it looks too castillian to me). Could it be "Maria de Lurdes"? You could be entitled to Portuguese citizenship if your parents were portuguese. Was your deceased grandmother portuguese? If you want to look further in your ancestry, you have to find DOCUMENTS telling you 3 things: DATES (birth or marriage) PLACE (parish where it took place) NAMES (full names, and/or parents names) And those documents have to be found right there where you are. Otherwise, you'll be looking for something almost impossible to find. You must try EVERYTHING: Your parents and grandparents birth and marriage documents: Passengers lists from the boats coming to S.A. Army lists. Census. Etc. And, above all, you must NEVER QUIT. Good Luck Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- From: Marcia & Roland Date: Terça-feira, 6 de Junho de 2006 19:11 Good evening My name is Marcia and I live in Durban, KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa. I have just been reading with interest all the mails that have come through to me from the mailing list regarding the Madeiran Archives Website. I also do not speak Portuguese and am having great difficulty in tracing my ancestry. My great-grandparents were born in Portugal. My great-grandmother was Maria Clara (Calderia) de Abreu/de Abreau/Deabreu (not sure of the spelling). She was born in Madeira but unfortunately the parish is unknown to me (I have a faint suspicion though that it may very well have been Funchal - don't ask me why, I just get these feelings sometimes). My great-grandfather was Marceal/Marcial/Marcel Vieira Serena and he was born in Lisbon. They both came through to South Africa in the early 1900's (I think). I today tried to do a search on the Madeiran Archives for the surname "Serena" but nothing comes up. I came up with lots of Vieira's and de Abreau's but nothing at all that comes close to my great-grandparents' names. I have been assured that Serena is definitely a Portuguese surname so can't understand why nobody else has that surname. I have basically hit a "brick wall" with my research. I have so far been unable to obtain birth certificates or any sort of family record from my grandmother's family members. Unfortunately the person who probably would have remembered the most (my grandmother), passed away in 1990. My great-grandparents' childrens' names were - De Lourdes Serena (died at age 19) (I think she may have been born in Portugal), "Fatti" (not sure if this is a Portuguese name or a nickname - He may also very well have been born in Portugal) Vieira Serena, Luiz Jose Vieira Serena, Antonio Vieira Serena, Deloures Serena, Theresa Maria Serena (born in South Africa I think), Beatrice (Beatriz) Serena (born in South Africa), Angelina Clara Serena (my deceased grandmother) (definitely born in South Africa) and Lawrence (Lourenco) Serena (he died as a baby from consumption). The reason I started my research in the first place was to try and see whether I would be able to obtain my Portuguese Passport through my maternal grandparents - So far the Portuguese Embassy in South Africa has been most unhelpful in that they refuse to give me any information as to whether I may or may not be entitled to a Portuguese passport. But, as my research has gone on, my curiosity has just gotten the better of me. My maternal side of the family seems to think that there is some huge secret about my great-grandfather's departure from Portugal - something to the effect that he could have stolen someone else's surname - but this has not been confirmed. Is there somebody out there that can perhaps help me in my quest for my heritage? Kind regards, Marcia Bezuidenhout ============================== Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. New content added every business day. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx ============================== Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx

My only contribution to this is a wild guess. There are families named Marçal in Madeira, both as a first name and last name. -----Original Message----- From: Luis K W [mailto:luis_k_w@clix.pt] Sent: June 7, 2006 8:31 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran Archives Website Sorry for this, Marcia. This msg should have been sent yesterday! Luis ---------- > From: Luis K W <luis_k_w@clix.pt> > To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran Archives Website > Date: Quarta-feira, 7 de Junho de 2006 2:31 > > Marcia > The correct spelling of those names is: > CALDEIRA (not Calderia) > de ABREU > MARCEL > > SERENA is an uncommon family name, but it STILL EXISTS IN LISBON (you made > a mistake looking for this name in Madeira. Lisbon is in mainland Portugal, > not in Madeira!). Take a look into the portuguese telephone book on-line at > www.118.pt. > > FATI is a neek name for FATIMA (or MARIA DE FATIMA). > > DELOURES should be DELORES, but is not common in Portugal (it looks too > castillian to me). Could it be "Maria de Lurdes"? > > You could be entitled to Portuguese citizenship if your parents were > portuguese. Was your deceased grandmother portuguese? > > If you want to look further in your ancestry, you have to find DOCUMENTS > telling you 3 things: > DATES (birth or marriage) > PLACE (parish where it took place) > NAMES (full names, and/or parents names) > And those documents have to be found right there where you are. > Otherwise, you'll be looking for something almost impossible to find. > > You must try EVERYTHING: Your parents and grandparents birth and marriage > documents: Passengers lists from the boats coming to S.A. Army lists. > Census. Etc. > > And, above all, you must NEVER QUIT. > Good Luck > > Luis K W > Lisboa-Portugal > ---------- > > From: Marcia & Roland > > Date: Terça-feira, 6 de Junho de 2006 19:11 > > Good evening > > My name is Marcia and I live in Durban, KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa. I > have > > just been reading with interest all the mails that have come through to > me > > from the mailing list regarding the Madeiran Archives Website. I also do > > not speak Portuguese and am having great difficulty in tracing my > ancestry. > > My great-grandparents were born in Portugal. My great-grandmother was > Maria > > Clara (Calderia) de Abreu/de Abreau/Deabreu (not sure of the spelling). > She > > was born in Madeira but unfortunately the parish is unknown to me (I have > a > > faint suspicion though that it may very well have been Funchal - don't > ask > > me why, I just get these feelings sometimes). My great-grandfather was > > Marceal/Marcial/Marcel Vieira Serena and he was born in Lisbon. They > both > > came through to South Africa in the early 1900's (I think). > > I today tried to do a search on the Madeiran Archives for the surname > > "Serena" but nothing comes up. I came up with lots of Vieira's and de > > Abreau's but nothing at all that comes close to my great-grandparents' > > names. I have been assured that Serena is definitely a Portuguese > surname > > so can't understand why nobody else has that surname. I have basically > hit > > a "brick wall" with my research. I have so far been unable to obtain > birth > > certificates or any sort of family record from my grandmother's family > > members. Unfortunately the person who probably would have remembered the > > most (my grandmother), passed away in 1990. > > My great-grandparents' childrens' names were - De Lourdes Serena (died at > > age 19) (I think she may have been born in Portugal), "Fatti" (not sure > if > > this is a Portuguese name or a nickname - He may also very well have been > > born in Portugal) Vieira Serena, Luiz Jose Vieira Serena, Antonio Vieira > > Serena, Deloures Serena, Theresa Maria Serena (born in South Africa I > > think), Beatrice (Beatriz) Serena (born in South Africa), Angelina Clara > > Serena (my deceased grandmother) (definitely born in South Africa) and > > Lawrence (Lourenco) Serena (he died as a baby from consumption). > > The reason I started my research in the first place was to try and see > > whether I would be able to obtain my Portuguese Passport through my > maternal > > grandparents - So far the Portuguese Embassy in South Africa has been > most > > unhelpful in that they refuse to give me any information as to whether I > may > > or may not be entitled to a Portuguese passport. But, as my research has > > gone on, my curiosity has just gotten the better of me. > > My maternal side of the family seems to think that there is some huge > secret > > about my great-grandfather's departure from Portugal - something to the > > effect that he could have stolen someone else's surname - but this has > not > > been confirmed. > > Is there somebody out there that can perhaps help me in my quest for my > > heritage? > > Kind regards, > > Marcia Bezuidenhout ============================== Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. New content added every business day. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx

Hi Luis Thank you so much for that information. Ana shed some light on the "Calderia" surname - she also informed me that it was "Caldeira". There is some sort of a dispute regarding the "Marcel" - our archives here in SA have his name spelled two different ways "Marceal" and "Marsial" - so I'm a bit lost there. I'm waiting for the one researcher to come back to me regarding the documents in the archives. Unfortunately the one lot is contained at the Pretoria archives and I live in Durban so it is difficult for me to lay my hands on them. Hence the need for somebody else to do it for me. I must say I have been having great difficulty in finding the name "Serena" - thank you for the Portuguese telephone book link - I will most certainly have a look at that. The only problem with the name "Fatti" is that it was a nickname which belonged to a male relative. I pulled out my Family Sheet for Serena/De Abreu and some of the information regarding my great-grandparents' children(which I had forgotten) is as follows:- Lourdes/Delourdes/De Lurdes - Female - Deceased - Date of birth unknown to me - Place of birth unknown to me - Date of death - uknown to me - Place of death - unknown to me - Died approximately age 19 - She was a Down Syndrome child. Avelino Vieira Serena ("Fatti") - Male - Deceased - Date of birth unknown to me - Place of birth unknown to me - Date of death - 2002/3 (I am still trying to get hold of the Government Gazette containing his death details)- Place of death - Johannesburg, SA Luiz Jose Vieira Serena - Male - Deceased - Date of birth 08.11.1928 - Place of birth unknown to me - Date of death - 07.12.03 - Place of death - Durban, SA Theresa Maria Serena - Female - Deceased - Date of birth 14.08.193? - Place of birth - unknown to me - Date of death - April 2005 - Place of death - Durban, SA Angelina Clara Serena (my grandmother) - Female - Deceased - Date of birth 06.08.1936 - Place of birth - Durban, SA - Date of death - 20.08.1990 - Place of death - Durban, SA Deloures ... Serena - Female - Deceased - Date of birth - 09.02.1939 - Place of birth - unknown to me - Date of death - 16.09.1994 - Place of death - Cape Town, SA Beatriz (Beatrice) ... Serena - Female - Still Living in SA - Date of birth - ... - Place of birth - ... (I am working on this one - she is rather reluctant to give me any information - she apparently went to Portugal with Deloures ... on a visit to try and get information on the family - they apparently did get information but now all of a sudden nobody knows anything) Cecilia ... Serena - Female - Still Living in SA - Date of birth - ... - Place of birth - (I am also still working on this one - also rather reluctant to give me information - I will ask my mom to give her a call) Antonio ... Serena - Male - Still Living - Date of birth - ... - Place of birth - (I am going to ask my mother to give him or his wife a call) Lourenco (Lawrence)... Serena - Male - Deceased - Date of birth - unknown to me - Place of birth - unknown to me - Date of death - unknown to me - Place of death - unknown to me - Died approximately 9 months of age (we think he had Consumption) Unfortunately my deceased grandmother was not a Portuguese Citizen - I have a copy of her birth certificate and she was born in South Africa. The only link we have with Portugal at this stage is my great-grandmother and great-grandfather. I will most definitely not give up - I am too curious to find out more - and all the secrecy just adds to that curiosity! Thank you so much for your help - most appreciated - you have really shed some more light on my ancestry! God Bless! Kind regards, Marcia -----Original Message----- From: Luis K W [mailto:luis_k_w@clix.pt] Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 3:32 AM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran Archives Website Marcia The correct spelling of those names is: CALDEIRA (not Calderia) de ABREU MARCEL SERENA is an uncommon family name, but it STILL EXISTS IN LISBON (you made a mistake looking for this name in Madeira. Lisbon is in mainland Portugal, not in Madeira!). Take a look into the portuguese telephone book on-line at www.118.pt. FATI is a neek name for FATIMA (or MARIA DE FATIMA). DELOURES should be DELORES, but is not common in Portugal (it looks too castillian to me). Could it be "Maria de Lurdes"? You could be entitled to Portuguese citizenship if your parents were portuguese. Was your deceased grandmother portuguese? If you want to look further in your ancestry, you have to find DOCUMENTS telling you 3 things: DATES (birth or marriage) PLACE (parish where it took place) NAMES (full names, and/or parents names) And those documents have to be found right there where you are. Otherwise, you'll be looking for something almost impossible to find. You must try EVERYTHING: Your parents and grandparents birth and marriage documents: Passengers lists from the boats coming to S.A. Army lists. Census. Etc. And, above all, you must NEVER QUIT. Good Luck Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- > From: Marcia & Roland > Date: Terça-feira, 6 de Junho de 2006 19:11 > Good evening > My name is Marcia and I live in Durban, KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa. I have > just been reading with interest all the mails that have come through to me > from the mailing list regarding the Madeiran Archives Website. I also do > not speak Portuguese and am having great difficulty in tracing my ancestry. > My great-grandparents were born in Portugal. My great-grandmother was Maria > Clara (Calderia) de Abreu/de Abreau/Deabreu (not sure of the spelling). She > was born in Madeira but unfortunately the parish is unknown to me (I have a > faint suspicion though that it may very well have been Funchal - don't ask > me why, I just get these feelings sometimes). My great-grandfather was > Marceal/Marcial/Marcel Vieira Serena and he was born in Lisbon. They both > came through to South Africa in the early 1900's (I think). > I today tried to do a search on the Madeiran Archives for the surname > "Serena" but nothing comes up. I came up with lots of Vieira's and de > Abreau's but nothing at all that comes close to my great-grandparents' > names. I have been assured that Serena is definitely a Portuguese surname > so can't understand why nobody else has that surname. I have basically hit > a "brick wall" with my research. I have so far been unable to obtain birth > certificates or any sort of family record from my grandmother's family > members. Unfortunately the person who probably would have remembered the > most (my grandmother), passed away in 1990. > My great-grandparents' childrens' names were - De Lourdes Serena (died at > age 19) (I think she may have been born in Portugal), "Fatti" (not sure if > this is a Portuguese name or a nickname - He may also very well have been > born in Portugal) Vieira Serena, Luiz Jose Vieira Serena, Antonio Vieira > Serena, Deloures Serena, Theresa Maria Serena (born in South Africa I > think), Beatrice (Beatriz) Serena (born in South Africa), Angelina Clara > Serena (my deceased grandmother) (definitely born in South Africa) and > Lawrence (Lourenco) Serena (he died as a baby from consumption). > The reason I started my research in the first place was to try and see > whether I would be able to obtain my Portuguese Passport through my maternal > grandparents - So far the Portuguese Embassy in South Africa has been most > unhelpful in that they refuse to give me any information as to whether I may > or may not be entitled to a Portuguese passport. But, as my research has > gone on, my curiosity has just gotten the better of me. > My maternal side of the family seems to think that there is some huge secret > about my great-grandfather's departure from Portugal - something to the > effect that he could have stolen someone else's surname - but this has not > been confirmed. > Is there somebody out there that can perhaps help me in my quest for my > heritage? > Kind regards, > Marcia Bezuidenhout ============================== View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find marriage announcements and more. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx

Marcia There also is the MARÇAL (marc,al) name, but it's a family name. Fati is a male (Avelino)?!? :-)) It has to be a nickname, then. Fortunately he was not living in Portugal... Could he be "fat" person? Luis ---------- > From: Marcia & Roland <roland1@wol.co.za> > To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: RE: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran Archives Website > Date: Quinta-feira, 8 de Junho de 2006 7:53 > > Hi Luis > Thank you so much for that information. Ana shed some light on the > "Calderia" surname - she also informed me that it was "Caldeira". There is > some sort of a dispute regarding the "Marcel" - our archives here in SA have > his name spelled two different ways "Marceal" and "Marsial" - so I'm a bit > lost there. I'm waiting for the one researcher to come back to me regarding > the documents in the archives. Unfortunately the one lot is contained at the > Pretoria archives and I live in Durban so it is difficult for me to lay my > hands on them. Hence the need for somebody else to do it for me. > I must say I have been having great difficulty in finding the name "Serena" > - thank you for the Portuguese telephone book link - I will most certainly > have a look at that. > The only problem with the name "Fatti" is that it was a nickname which > belonged to a male relative. I pulled out my Family Sheet for Serena/De > Abreu and some of the information regarding my great-grandparents' > children(which I had forgotten) is as follows:- > > Lourdes/Delourdes/De Lurdes - Female - Deceased - Date of birth unknown to > me - Place of birth unknown to me - Date of death - uknown to me - Place of > death - unknown to me - Died approximately age 19 - She was a Down Syndrome > child. > > Avelino Vieira Serena ("Fatti") - Male - Deceased - Date of birth unknown to > me - Place of birth unknown to me - Date of death - 2002/3 (I am still > trying to get hold of the Government Gazette containing his death details)- > Place of death - Johannesburg, SA > > Luiz Jose Vieira Serena - Male - Deceased - Date of birth 08.11.1928 - Place > of birth unknown to me - Date of death - 07.12.03 - Place of death - Durban, > SA > > Theresa Maria Serena - Female - Deceased - Date of birth 14.08.193? - Place > of birth - unknown to me - Date of death - April 2005 - Place of death - > Durban, SA > > Angelina Clara Serena (my grandmother) - Female - Deceased - Date of birth > 06.08.1936 - Place of birth - Durban, SA - Date of death - 20.08.1990 - > Place of death - Durban, SA > > Deloures ... Serena - Female - Deceased - Date of birth - 09.02.1939 - Place > of birth - unknown to me - Date of death - 16.09.1994 - Place of death - > Cape Town, SA > > Beatriz (Beatrice) ... Serena - Female - Still Living in SA - Date of birth > - ... - Place of birth - ... (I am working on this one - she is rather > reluctant to give me any information - she apparently went to Portugal with > Deloures ... on a visit to try and get information on the family - they > apparently did get information but now all of a sudden nobody knows > anything) > > Cecilia ... Serena - Female - Still Living in SA - Date of birth - ... - > Place of birth - (I am also still working on this one - also rather > reluctant to give me information - I will ask my mom to give her a call) > > Antonio ... Serena - Male - Still Living - Date of birth - ... - Place of > birth - (I am going to ask my mother to give him or his wife a call) > > Lourenco (Lawrence)... Serena - Male - Deceased - Date of birth - unknown to > me - Place of birth - unknown to me - Date of death - unknown to me - Place > of death - unknown to me - Died approximately 9 months of age (we think he > had Consumption) > > Unfortunately my deceased grandmother was not a Portuguese Citizen - I have > a copy of her birth certificate and she was born in South Africa. > The only link we have with Portugal at this stage is my great-grandmother > and great-grandfather. > I will most definitely not give up - I am too curious to find out more - and > all the secrecy just adds to that curiosity! > Thank you so much for your help - most appreciated - you have really shed > some more light on my ancestry! > God Bless! > Kind regards, > Marcia > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Luis K W [mailto:luis_k_w@clix.pt] > Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 3:32 AM > To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran Archives Website > > Marcia > The correct spelling of those names is: > CALDEIRA (not Calderia) > de ABREU > MARCEL > > SERENA is an uncommon family name, but it STILL EXISTS IN LISBON (you made > a mistake looking for this name in Madeira. Lisbon is in mainland Portugal, > not in Madeira!). Take a look into the portuguese telephone book on-line at > www.118.pt. > > FATI is a neek name for FATIMA (or MARIA DE FATIMA). > > DELOURES should be DELORES, but is not common in Portugal (it looks too > castillian to me). Could it be "Maria de Lurdes"? > > You could be entitled to Portuguese citizenship if your parents were > portuguese. Was your deceased grandmother portuguese? > > If you want to look further in your ancestry, you have to find DOCUMENTS > telling you 3 things: > DATES (birth or marriage) > PLACE (parish where it took place) > NAMES (full names, and/or parents names) > And those documents have to be found right there where you are. > Otherwise, you'll be looking for something almost impossible to find. > > You must try EVERYTHING: Your parents and grandparents birth and marriage > documents: Passengers lists from the boats coming to S.A. Army lists. > Census. Etc. > > And, above all, you must NEVER QUIT. > Good Luck > > Luis K W > Lisboa-Portugal > ---------- > > From: Marcia & Roland > > Date: Terça-feira, 6 de Junho de 2006 19:11 > > Good evening > > My name is Marcia and I live in Durban, KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa. I > have > > just been reading with interest all the mails that have come through to > me > > from the mailing list regarding the Madeiran Archives Website. I also do > > not speak Portuguese and am having great difficulty in tracing my > ancestry. > > My great-grandparents were born in Portugal. My great-grandmother was > Maria > > Clara (Calderia) de Abreu/de Abreau/Deabreu (not sure of the spelling). > She > > was born in Madeira but unfortunately the parish is unknown to me (I have > a > > faint suspicion though that it may very well have been Funchal - don't > ask > > me why, I just get these feelings sometimes). My great-grandfather was > > Marceal/Marcial/Marcel Vieira Serena and he was born in Lisbon. They > both > > came through to South Africa in the early 1900's (I think). > > I today tried to do a search on the Madeiran Archives for the surname > > "Serena" but nothing comes up. I came up with lots of Vieira's and de > > Abreau's but nothing at all that comes close to my great-grandparents' > > names. I have been assured that Serena is definitely a Portuguese > surname > > so can't understand why nobody else has that surname. I have basically > hit > > a "brick wall" with my research. I have so far been unable to obtain > birth > > certificates or any sort of family record from my grandmother's family > > members. Unfortunately the person who probably would have remembered the > > most (my grandmother), passed away in 1990. > > My great-grandparents' childrens' names were - De Lourdes Serena (died at > > age 19) (I think she may have been born in Portugal), "Fatti" (not sure > if > > this is a Portuguese name or a nickname - He may also very well have been > > born in Portugal) Vieira Serena, Luiz Jose Vieira Serena, Antonio Vieira > > Serena, Deloures Serena, Theresa Maria Serena (born in South Africa I > > think), Beatrice (Beatriz) Serena (born in South Africa), Angelina Clara > > Serena (my deceased grandmother) (definitely born in South Africa) and > > Lawrence (Lourenco) Serena (he died as a baby from consumption). > > The reason I started my research in the first place was to try and see > > whether I would be able to obtain my Portuguese Passport through my > maternal > > grandparents - So far the Portuguese Embassy in South Africa has been > most > > unhelpful in that they refuse to give me any information as to whether I > may > > or may not be entitled to a Portuguese passport. But, as my research has > > gone on, my curiosity has just gotten the better of me. > > My maternal side of the family seems to think that there is some huge > secret > > about my great-grandfather's departure from Portugal - something to the > > effect that he could have stolen someone else's surname - but this has > not > > been confirmed. > > Is there somebody out there that can perhaps help me in my quest for my > > heritage? > > Kind regards, > > Marcia Bezuidenhout > > > ============================== > View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find > marriage announcements and more. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx > > > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > >

Sorry for this, Marcia. This msg should have been sent yesterday! Luis ---------- > From: Luis K W <luis_k_w@clix.pt> > To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran Archives Website > Date: Quarta-feira, 7 de Junho de 2006 2:31 > > Marcia > The correct spelling of those names is: > CALDEIRA (not Calderia) > de ABREU > MARCEL > > SERENA is an uncommon family name, but it STILL EXISTS IN LISBON (you made > a mistake looking for this name in Madeira. Lisbon is in mainland Portugal, > not in Madeira!). Take a look into the portuguese telephone book on-line at > www.118.pt. > > FATI is a neek name for FATIMA (or MARIA DE FATIMA). > > DELOURES should be DELORES, but is not common in Portugal (it looks too > castillian to me). Could it be "Maria de Lurdes"? > > You could be entitled to Portuguese citizenship if your parents were > portuguese. Was your deceased grandmother portuguese? > > If you want to look further in your ancestry, you have to find DOCUMENTS > telling you 3 things: > DATES (birth or marriage) > PLACE (parish where it took place) > NAMES (full names, and/or parents names) > And those documents have to be found right there where you are. > Otherwise, you'll be looking for something almost impossible to find. > > You must try EVERYTHING: Your parents and grandparents birth and marriage > documents: Passengers lists from the boats coming to S.A. Army lists. > Census. Etc. > > And, above all, you must NEVER QUIT. > Good Luck > > Luis K W > Lisboa-Portugal > ---------- > > From: Marcia & Roland > > Date: Terça-feira, 6 de Junho de 2006 19:11 > > Good evening > > My name is Marcia and I live in Durban, KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa. I > have > > just been reading with interest all the mails that have come through to > me > > from the mailing list regarding the Madeiran Archives Website. I also do > > not speak Portuguese and am having great difficulty in tracing my > ancestry. > > My great-grandparents were born in Portugal. My great-grandmother was > Maria > > Clara (Calderia) de Abreu/de Abreau/Deabreu (not sure of the spelling). > She > > was born in Madeira but unfortunately the parish is unknown to me (I have > a > > faint suspicion though that it may very well have been Funchal - don't > ask > > me why, I just get these feelings sometimes). My great-grandfather was > > Marceal/Marcial/Marcel Vieira Serena and he was born in Lisbon. They > both > > came through to South Africa in the early 1900's (I think). > > I today tried to do a search on the Madeiran Archives for the surname > > "Serena" but nothing comes up. I came up with lots of Vieira's and de > > Abreau's but nothing at all that comes close to my great-grandparents' > > names. I have been assured that Serena is definitely a Portuguese > surname > > so can't understand why nobody else has that surname. I have basically > hit > > a "brick wall" with my research. I have so far been unable to obtain > birth > > certificates or any sort of family record from my grandmother's family > > members. Unfortunately the person who probably would have remembered the > > most (my grandmother), passed away in 1990. > > My great-grandparents' childrens' names were - De Lourdes Serena (died at > > age 19) (I think she may have been born in Portugal), "Fatti" (not sure > if > > this is a Portuguese name or a nickname - He may also very well have been > > born in Portugal) Vieira Serena, Luiz Jose Vieira Serena, Antonio Vieira > > Serena, Deloures Serena, Theresa Maria Serena (born in South Africa I > > think), Beatrice (Beatriz) Serena (born in South Africa), Angelina Clara > > Serena (my deceased grandmother) (definitely born in South Africa) and > > Lawrence (Lourenco) Serena (he died as a baby from consumption). > > The reason I started my research in the first place was to try and see > > whether I would be able to obtain my Portuguese Passport through my > maternal > > grandparents - So far the Portuguese Embassy in South Africa has been > most > > unhelpful in that they refuse to give me any information as to whether I > may > > or may not be entitled to a Portuguese passport. But, as my research has > > gone on, my curiosity has just gotten the better of me. > > My maternal side of the family seems to think that there is some huge > secret > > about my great-grandfather's departure from Portugal - something to the > > effect that he could have stolen someone else's surname - but this has > not > > been confirmed. > > Is there somebody out there that can perhaps help me in my quest for my > > heritage? > > Kind regards, > > Marcia Bezuidenhout

For those of you interested in reading about our Portuguese Jewish connection, I have added various articles and website information on my web page located at this URL www.geocities.com/papagaia2, scan down the page to "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> wrote: Thanks for joining our DNA group. As the co-administrator I have seen your results. We are a small group, but as you may know Katherine has started to use Portuguese DNA studies such as the Beleza study to "widen" the group. I also believe (this is only my opinion) that we may find matches in the Spanish groups, specifically Galician and Castillian groups. I know Katherine is continuing her work in that area. There is also a newsgroup of Portuguese Jews and their descendants all over the world, which I belong to, which will enlighten our research. As Madeirans and descendants of Portuguese we have to remain open to all possibilities. The least known aspect of our common history is our Jewish history. That can also be said about our Moorish and African history. Have a good day. José -----Original Message----- From: ABREU III,LOUIS [mailto:labreu@cablespeed.com] Sent: June 6, 2006 2:45 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran archives website Jose, I have done the National Geographic DNA testing, my results are posted on the Madeira DNA site. I am the only one so far with my particular Haplogroup....which is very interesting. Lou On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:07:18 -0400 "Fernandes, Jose" wrote: > Lou, > > I am not sure we should be stuck. Others may have a >different perspective and we shouldn't give up. > > In my opinion it will be hard to trace our families to >Portugal (mainland). That is if you believe in fairy >tales we all came from Minho and Algarve so that should >be easy. I am one of those that believe that our people >came from many places, including outside Portugal. DNA >testing may assist us in that but paper records will be >almost impossible. I am told that we only started keeping >parochial records in the late 17th century. There are >some before then but they didn't have to be registered. > > Also, the Madeiran Government has often requested that >Madeiran archives and other related documents be >transferred to the Regional Government from Lisbon. To >the best of my information this has been denied by the >Portuguese government. So if you want to do further >research you must go to the Torre do Tombo in Lisbon. > > Cheers, > José > > -----Original Message----- >From: ABREU III,LOUIS [mailto:labreu@cablespeed.com] > Sent: June 6, 2006 1:17 PM > To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran archives website > > Mr. Fernandes, > I have run into the exact situations that you > describe, it is what has made the search for my >ancestors > both fun and frustrating. I have often wondered how you > could determine the who/what/when/where......but by your > posting I would say I am stuck with no hope of tracing > from the island to the mainland. > > Regards, > Lou > > On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 11:23:58 -0400 > "Fernandes, Jose" > wrote: >> Bob, >> >> I can only share my experience as a native-born Madeiran >>who continues to have strong links to the region and >>opinions... >> >> Camacho is a well-know name in Madeira but in my opinion >>is not equivalent to Smith. Fernandes, Gonçalves, Freitas >>etc. are more common. >> >> Over 500 years of colonization many decisions have been >>made. Anything could happen and it did happen. Some by >>priests others by Portuguese officials. Surnames can be >>all over the place. The old Madeira was also very class >>based. Some names denoted upper class. Some families with >>common names and who became rich wanted to be different. >>Thus you have Pereira Camacho to distinguish from others. >>Sometimes, if you married "up", the children took the >>most "rich" name. Sometimes they added a "de" and >>sometimes that "de" was taken away by officials and >>priests. >> >> Although all Madeirans have somewhat related (DNA could >>prove that) not all surnames denote a common ancestor. >> >> Many don't want to talk about it, but we had slaves who >>took the owner's name. We had Jews and moors that changed >>names. Pereira, for example denotes Jewish ancestry. >>There was a time that some families used the common >>Spanish tradition of naming their children after their >>mother. Therefore you would be known by your mother's >>surname. There were many children of "rich men" who were >>not given the father's surname. Usually children of young >>(poor) women who worked for rich families. Therefore you >>have "pai incognito". Let me tell you that father was not >>unknown. Everybody knew it but they were not "allowed" to >>name him. >> >> Madeirans changed surnames. It was easy to do it. Money >>and influence could buy anything. >> >> In my opinion there are the Pereiras and then there are >>the Pereira Camacho famnilies. It would be interesting to >>find out when that started and what prompted it. >> >> I don't think I have added to your research but all of >>the best. >> >> José Fernandes >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >>From: BOBCAMSCPW@aol.com [mailto:BOBCAMSCPW@aol.com] >> Sent: June 5, 2006 11:04 PM >> To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran archives website >> >> thank you everyone for the information. I now have a >>question about my >> family in Madeira. When I was doing my research I was >>told by someone that also >> was doing research in Madeira that I would need to >>research everyone with the >> middle name of Pereira because they would be related to >>each other. Do you >> know if that is true or not. I was told that the Last >> name of Camacho is >> like Smith there are so many of them that why you could >>tell who is related to >> whom was by there middle name unless one of the women >>got married to another >> Camacho with a different middle name then you would have >>to research that >> name. >> The main reason I ask this is that I have done some >>research and found that >> most of the surname are all the same. Using either >>Joao, Jose, and so on, >> but everyone has had the middle name of Pereira and then >>Camacho. >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> Bob Camacho >> Researching the islands of >> Terceira for da Costa, and Evangelho, >> Graciousa for Reis, and >> Madeira for Camacho >> >> >> >> ============================== >> Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your >>family and the >> areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the >>last 12 months. >> Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >> >> >> >> >> >> ============================== >> Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your >>family and the >> areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the >>last 12 months. >> Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >> > > > ============================== > New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search >for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with >family and friends. Learn more: >http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429 > > > > > > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not >only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx > ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx ============================== Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. New content added every business day. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx

Hello Ana Thank you so much for all the information you supplied to me. You are obviously very clued up about ancestry! Compared to me - I'm just starting out. I mean, I didn't even know that we had a Family History Centre here in SA, so for someone in a totally different country to tell me that was most exciting. Where do you get all your info from? It's wonderful! I had a faint suspicion that the "Calderia" had been misspelt by our archives here in SA and that it should have been "Caldeira". It's quite fascinating what you mention about the "eira" - in the little bit of research I have done so far, I haven't even noticed that. If "Serena" is a Portuguese word, do you by any chance know the meaning of it? I would be interested to know. Thanks for checking the White Pages and for that telephone number - the only problem is, I wonder if I had to telephone her if she would understand English! And yes, today everybody seems to have a cellphone. They are really such useful "tools"! As for my great-grandparents marrying in Madeira, I'm just a little unsure about that - it so happens that my grandmother's side of the family does have certain information available to them but they are refusing to divulge that information to me - I have just picked up little pieces here and there when they have been talking but everything is so hush-hush (I mean really, so what if there are "skeletons in the closet" - who cares - that is what history is all about and that is also what makes ancestry so exciting!) One bit of information that I picked up was that my great-grandmother's mother died when she was very young. Her father re-married and her step-mother (they think the step-mother was actually a South African woman - and they also think that her surname may have been "Van Rooyen" which is an Afrikaans name) was apparently very nasty towards her, making her do all the family chores, washing, cleaning, etc (unless that is just the way that they lived in those times). Another bit of information is that her father came through to South Africa from Portugal (we are not sure whether he met the woman here in SA or in Portugal) - I can only think that she did meet my great-grandfather in Portugal. And that seems to be where my information ends. My mom does recall though that my great-grandmother learned to speak Afrikaans quite well. I will check the database again doing a search for "Sereno" - hopefully I will see something familiar - I did a search for "Serena" and also came up with absolutely nothing! I am just so excited at the prospect of contacting the Family History Centre and going through the microfilms - Luckily I have just started my annual leave so I am really hoping and praying that I get a chance to go through to the Centre to have a look. Once again, thank you so much for all your help - If I come up with anything more I will let you know! God Bless! Kind regards, Marcia -----Original Message----- From: Ana Ghia-Pereira [mailto:ghiapereira@rogers.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 10:46 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [PRT-MADEIRA] Re: Madeiran Archives Website Hi Marcia Maybe I can give you a small hand with your research. The correct spelling for your grandmother's name was Maria Clara Caldeira de Abreu. Please note the spelling of Caldeira. English-speaking people have a tendency to write Calderia (the "i" after the "r") but as you progress in your research you'll fins that the ending "eira" very common in Portuguese surnames (Caldeira, Vieira, Ferreira, Pereira, etc.). You mention that your great-grandfather was born in Lisbon. "Serena" is certainly a Portuguese word but as a surname it is not that common. I just checked the Portuguese White Pages for the whole of Portugal and found 12 living people with the surname Serena. With the surname "Vieira Serena" I found only one person (Monica Vasconcelos Vieira Serena - 96 827 73 22). The number 96 indicates that this is a cellular phone, a common occurrence in Portugal today. Sometimes I think that just about everyone has a cell phone. Do you know if your great-grandparents married in Madeira? I checked the Madeira database and did not find a "Serena", but found several "Sereno". Also, the surname "Sereno" ending in "o" instead of "a" is a lot more common in the Portuguese White Pages, I found. The system refused to to a "national" search because it found too many. Based the names of your great-grandmother, I found the marriage below that could be that of her parents. At least the date and the surnames make sense. João de Abreu Aureliana Narcisa Caldeira 2929 3 v.º Porto da Cruz 1861 Have you tried the Family History Center? I checked the web and there is a Family History Center in Durban. The address is below: Durban South Africa 144 Silverton Road Berea Durban, Kwazulu Natal, South Africa In the Family History Center you can order and research the microfilms from Madeira. I checked their database and it seems that the all the books of the vital records are microfilmed, until 1911. You pay a pittance for the use of the microfilm and research at your leisure. Much better and cheaper than have the people at the Archives do it for you. Do not let the fact that you do not know Portuguese scare you. The wording on the registries is all the same and after the first ones you'll realize that they all records read about the same and only the names change. Good luck in your research. Let me know if you need anything else. Ana Ghia-Pereira Ottawa, Canada Researching: Bengio, Bendrao, Ayash, Paxiuta, Guia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcia & Roland" <roland1@wol.co.za> To: <PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 2:11 PM Subject: [PRT-MADEIRA] Madeiran Archives Website > Good evening. > > My name is Marcia and I live in Durban, KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa. I > have > just been reading with interest all the mails that have come through to me > from the mailing list regarding the Madeiran Archives Website. I also do > not speak Portuguese and am having great difficulty in tracing my > ancestry. > > My great-grandparents were born in Portugal. My great-grandmother was > Maria > Clara (Calderia) de Abreu/de Abreau/Deabreu (not sure of the spelling). > She > was born in Madeira but unfortunately the parish is unknown to me (I have > a > faint suspicion though that it may very well have been Funchal - don't ask > me why, I just get these feelings sometimes). My great-grandfather was > Marceal/Marcial/Marcel Vieira Serena and he was born in Lisbon. They both > came through to South Africa in the early 1900's (I think). > > I today tried to do a search on the Madeiran Archives for the surname > "Serena" but nothing comes up. I came up with lots of Vieira's and de > Abreau's but nothing at all that comes close to my great-grandparents' > names. I have been assured that Serena is definitely a Portuguese surname > so can't understand why nobody else has that surname. I have basically > hit > a "brick wall" with my research. I have so far been unable to obtain > birth > certificates or any sort of family record from my grandmother's family > members. Unfortunately the person who probably would have remembered the > most (my grandmother), passed away in 1990. > > My great-grandparents' childrens' names were - De Lourdes Serena (died at > age 19) (I think she may have been born in Portugal), "Fatti" (not sure if > this is a Portuguese name or a nickname - He may also very well have been > born in Portugal) Vieira Serena, Luiz Jose Vieira Serena, Antonio Vieira > Serena, Deloures Serena, Theresa Maria Serena (born in South Africa I > think), Beatrice (Beatriz) Serena (born in South Africa), Angelina Clara > Serena (my deceased grandmother) (definitely born in South Africa) and > Lawrence (Lourenco) Serena (he died as a baby from consumption). > > The reason I started my research in the first place was to try and see > whether I would be able to obtain my Portuguese Passport through my > maternal > grandparents - So far the Portuguese Embassy in South Africa has been most > unhelpful in that they refuse to give me any information as to whether I > may > or may not be entitled to a Portuguese passport. But, as my research has > gone on, my curiosity has just gotten the better of me. > > My maternal side of the family seems to think that there is some huge > secret > about my great-grandfather's departure from Portugal - something to the > effect that he could have stolen someone else's surname - but this has not > been confirmed. > > Is there somebody out there that can perhaps help me in my quest for my > heritage? > > Kind regards, > > Marcia Bezuidenhout > > > > ============================== > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. > New content added every business day. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx > ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

Jose, With the particular Haplogroup that I have....hehehe I seem to be the only one with Moorish ties....all the rest are R1B denoting a strong European tie. Lou "For those who have fought for it....Freedom has a taste the protected will never know" " Without the Brave there would be no land of the Free" A new Recruit asked an old Warrior, "What is War like?" The old timer replied, "A bunch of us went down to Gettysburg one day, a lot of people died. If you weren’t there you wouldn’t understand." -----Original Message----- From: Fernandes, Jose [mailto:jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca] Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 8:57 AM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [PRT-MADEIRA] RE: Pereira Name. Al, I believe that I used the term "denotes" in relationship to Pereira and a possible Jewish ancestry. I don't think I referred to Moorish in this case. It does not mean that all Pereiras are or are not, but I stand by the "link". If you want to join our Madeira DNA Project you may want to go to our website http://www.ourfamilyorigins.com/madeira/dna.htm and proceed from there. Should you have additional questions the best person to answer is Katherine Borges and she is a member of this list. José -----Original Message----- From: Gacugenetree@aol.com [mailto:Gacugenetree@aol.com] Sent: June 6, 2006 5:28 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [PRT-MADEIRA] RE: Pereira Name. Hi List, I had a question. Now some one mentioned that the Pereira is Jewish or Moorish. How would I find out from what I already know. Manuel Pereira, 1844, father Francisco Pereira and mother Maria Candida De Jesus. What I was told that those from Pereira were blue eyed. Also Manuel's wife Maria D'Encarancao - Father Antonio D' Abreu and Mother Jesuina Rosa were also Blue eyed. My question is ..... weren't most moorish and Portuguese browned eyed? Also, how would one be a part of this DNA research? Al ============================== Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx ============================== Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx

Luis B "Senra" é português há umas centenas de anos. Luis K W ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- And where is the name Senra or Sennra from? Is it spanish? I know it is not portuguese. Luis Beal John Roias jroias@rogers.com wrote: What an interesting and lively exchange. Might I suggest the name "Serena" might be a corruption of the name "Senra" or "Sennra". JR I today tried to do a search on the Madeiran Archives for the surname "Serena" but nothing comes up. ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429 "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

"Pereira" is Jewish?!?!? NOT AGAIN!!! LOLOLOL No, not all the moorish were/are browned eyes! Please remember that the moors were expelled from Portugal in the 15th century. You'll only find some descendants that turned to the Christian religion and mingled during the last 5 centuries with the other Portuguese. And as the Portuguese also descend from LOTS of Germanic peoples (Alanii, Suevii, Goths/Visigoths, etc.) there are lots of Portuguese with blue eyes - me and ALL my family from my mother's side, for instance. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Hi List, I had a question. Now some one mentioned that the Pereira is Jewish or Moorish. How would I find out from what I already know. Manuel Pereira, 1844, father Francisco Pereira and mother Maria Candida De Jesus. What I was told that those from Pereira were blue eyed. Also Manuel's wife Maria D'Encarancao - Father Antonio D' Abreu and Mother Jesuina Rosa were also Blue eyed. My question is ..... weren't most moorish and Portuguese browned eyed? Also, how would one be a part of this DNA research? Al

Al, I believe that I used the term "denotes" in relationship to Pereira and a possible Jewish ancestry. I don't think I referred to Moorish in this case. It does not mean that all Pereiras are or are not, but I stand by the "link". If you want to join our Madeira DNA Project you may want to go to our website http://www.ourfamilyorigins.com/madeira/dna.htm and proceed from there. Should you have additional questions the best person to answer is Katherine Borges and she is a member of this list. José -----Original Message----- From: Gacugenetree@aol.com [mailto:Gacugenetree@aol.com] Sent: June 6, 2006 5:28 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [PRT-MADEIRA] RE: Pereira Name. Hi List, I had a question. Now some one mentioned that the Pereira is Jewish or Moorish. How would I find out from what I already know. Manuel Pereira, 1844, father Francisco Pereira and mother Maria Candida De Jesus. What I was told that those from Pereira were blue eyed. Also Manuel's wife Maria D'Encarancao - Father Antonio D' Abreu and Mother Jesuina Rosa were also Blue eyed. My question is ..... weren't most moorish and Portuguese browned eyed? Also, how would one be a part of this DNA research? Al ============================== Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx

Marcia The correct spelling of those names is: CALDEIRA (not Calderia) de ABREU MARCEL SERENA is an uncommon family name, but it STILL EXISTS IN LISBON (you made a mistake looking for this name in Madeira. Lisbon is in mainland Portugal, not in Madeira!). Take a look into the portuguese telephone book on-line at www.118.pt. FATI is a neek name for FATIMA (or MARIA DE FATIMA). DELOURES should be DELORES, but is not common in Portugal (it looks too castillian to me). Could it be "Maria de Lurdes"? You could be entitled to Portuguese citizenship if your parents were portuguese. Was your deceased grandmother portuguese? If you want to look further in your ancestry, you have to find DOCUMENTS telling you 3 things: DATES (birth or marriage) PLACE (parish where it took place) NAMES (full names, and/or parents names) And those documents have to be found right there where you are. Otherwise, you'll be looking for something almost impossible to find. You must try EVERYTHING: Your parents and grandparents birth and marriage documents: Passengers lists from the boats coming to S.A. Army lists. Census. Etc. And, above all, you must NEVER QUIT. Good Luck Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- > From: Marcia & Roland > Date: Terça-feira, 6 de Junho de 2006 19:11 > Good evening > My name is Marcia and I live in Durban, KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa. I have > just been reading with interest all the mails that have come through to me > from the mailing list regarding the Madeiran Archives Website. I also do > not speak Portuguese and am having great difficulty in tracing my ancestry. > My great-grandparents were born in Portugal. My great-grandmother was Maria > Clara (Calderia) de Abreu/de Abreau/Deabreu (not sure of the spelling). She > was born in Madeira but unfortunately the parish is unknown to me (I have a > faint suspicion though that it may very well have been Funchal - don't ask > me why, I just get these feelings sometimes). My great-grandfather was > Marceal/Marcial/Marcel Vieira Serena and he was born in Lisbon. They both > came through to South Africa in the early 1900's (I think). > I today tried to do a search on the Madeiran Archives for the surname > "Serena" but nothing comes up. I came up with lots of Vieira's and de > Abreau's but nothing at all that comes close to my great-grandparents' > names. I have been assured that Serena is definitely a Portuguese surname > so can't understand why nobody else has that surname. I have basically hit > a "brick wall" with my research. I have so far been unable to obtain birth > certificates or any sort of family record from my grandmother's family > members. Unfortunately the person who probably would have remembered the > most (my grandmother), passed away in 1990. > My great-grandparents' childrens' names were - De Lourdes Serena (died at > age 19) (I think she may have been born in Portugal), "Fatti" (not sure if > this is a Portuguese name or a nickname - He may also very well have been > born in Portugal) Vieira Serena, Luiz Jose Vieira Serena, Antonio Vieira > Serena, Deloures Serena, Theresa Maria Serena (born in South Africa I > think), Beatrice (Beatriz) Serena (born in South Africa), Angelina Clara > Serena (my deceased grandmother) (definitely born in South Africa) and > Lawrence (Lourenco) Serena (he died as a baby from consumption). > The reason I started my research in the first place was to try and see > whether I would be able to obtain my Portuguese Passport through my maternal > grandparents - So far the Portuguese Embassy in South Africa has been most > unhelpful in that they refuse to give me any information as to whether I may > or may not be entitled to a Portuguese passport. But, as my research has > gone on, my curiosity has just gotten the better of me. > My maternal side of the family seems to think that there is some huge secret > about my great-grandfather's departure from Portugal - something to the > effect that he could have stolen someone else's surname - but this has not > been confirmed. > Is there somebody out there that can perhaps help me in my quest for my > heritage? > Kind regards, > Marcia Bezuidenhout