My turn to beg to differ...sort of... Of course, I don't think anyone is denying that Camara is not a legitimate last name...as in the descendants of Zarco. BUT...that does not also mean that the orphaned children were not ALSO given that name. I probably have at LEAST 100 individuals in my research file that are named Camara (whether they TOOK it or were GIVEN it is up for grabs isn't it???)... all of which are "pais incognito". Somehow these orphan children came to be known by the name Camara...even though they are not (or who knows-maybe they are...LOL) descended from the great Zarco. Cece Camara (desecended from BOTH Zarco and more recently one of those "pais incognito" Camara's) -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 12:35 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Moniz Family- CAMARA Margaret, I am sorry to correct you... again. :-) Every name may have different origins. But the "CAMARA" family name has a long and well known story. Its (oldest) origin goes back 550 years.(*) JOAO GONGALVES ZARCO, knight of the Dom Henrique house, was one of the founders of the Madeira isl. The place where they landed was named "Camara de Lobos" (house of wolfs) - probably because of the sea-wolfs (seals). King Afonso V awarded him the family name "Camara de Lobos" and a new coat of arms (with wolfs, of course). The chart of this royal grant is from July 4, 1460. JOAO GONC,ALVES DA CAMARA DE LOBOS married to Constanc,a Rodrigues (probably a daughter of my ancestor Rodrigo Anes de Sa'). They had a lot of children using that family name, which was shortened to CAMARA. On the other hand, babies who were left in the RODA ("wheel"= device prepared to receive unwanted babies in the monasteries, churches, etc.) had no family name, remember? :-) When they became Adults, they often used devotional (religious) names like "dos Santos", or the family name of the family that adopted them. By the way. I have an ancestor (married in 1725, died in 1777) who was left in the wheel ("exposto na Roda dos ingeitados da villa da Vianna do Lima") whose family name(s) was(were): "FERNANDES PITTA". I have no idea where this family name came from. He was raised in the house of Francisca DOMINGUES widow of Mathias FERNANDES. Hmmm.... "Fernandes" again! My guess is he was raised at his grandparents (his mother's parents) home, but i'll probably never know for sure. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal (*) source: Armorial Lusitano. Please NOTE that there probably are other Camara families whose name had other origins: Slaves who worked for the Camara family; people that used the name has a nickname (a Jose' that worked in the "Camara Municipal" may have turned into "Jose' da Camara", etc.); etc. ---------- ---------- > From: Margaret <marpg2000@comcast.net> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Moniz Family > Date: Quinta-feira, 25 de Janeiro de 2007 21:52 > > Hello Again: > I reread your note and saw the "Camara." > Children who were orphens etc., left at the Camara were given that name. > Could be that is why you cannot locate the parent. Also look at the > marriage of Vicente and see if the parents are mentioned or the > grandparents. I am told that if you start with marriage records it tells a > lot about the family and also the signetures are usually family menbers. > > I have a friend in South Africa who was born in Lisboa and his name was > Camara. He was able to locate his past by going to the archivo in Lisboa > and actually was able to locate a cousin. They had both been in the Camara. > He didnot know about the children usisng the Camara name if they were left > there as orphans. If you go to the archives in Funchal you may find what > you are looking for. Give it a try. > > Best wishes > Margaret ------------- ------------- Clix ADSL ati 24 Mb: a partir de

Philip, If the record is before 1907 it should be at the Archives. You can access it at www.arquivo-madeira.org There is an English version. I suspect you might have to order from them. I don't know what the Portuguese Consulate finds as sufficient evidence. Also please note that it is possible that the current spelling is "Afonso". I am assuming that you know the parish. Good luck. José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of The Bellamys of Trinidad Sent: January 28, 2007 1:41 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Birth certificates for Madeira pre-1907? Hello to all. Can anyone tell me how I can go about acquiring an official birth certificate for Silvano Afonco born in 1892 in Madeira? I already have a certificate prepared by Luis de Mello (that gives this as his DOB), but the Portuguese Consul in Caracas has told his son that this is insufficient evidence to apply for a passport. I went on to a website for the Regional CIvil Registry, but the site says that the records are only from 1907 (I cannot read Portuguese well enough to know if there was any other advice given). Philip Edward Bellamy -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.12/655 - Release Date: 28/01/2007 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello to all. Can anyone tell me how I can go about acquiring an official birth certificate for Silvano Afonco born in 1892 in Madeira? I already have a certificate prepared by Luis de Mello (that gives this as his DOB), but the Portuguese Consul in Caracas has told his son that this is insufficient evidence to apply for a passport. I went on to a website for the Regional CIvil Registry, but the site says that the records are only from 1907 (I cannot read Portuguese well enough to know if there was any other advice given). Philip Edward Bellamy -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.12/655 - Release Date: 28/01/2007

Patricia Corbera wrote: > It's written that John Drummond aka Joao Escorcio came to Madeira along with many other foreigners involved in the commercialization of sugar. Contingents of Italians, Flemish, French and Castilians also settled on the island, and intermarried with the island aristocracy and bourgeoisie. These marriages with attractive dowry became the simplest way to enlarge one's lands and assert one's position in local society. Hey, I am an Escorcio - on my Grandmother's side. Haven't traced it back too far yet. They were from Porto Santo. What fun! JL

Hello Again: I reread your note and saw the "Camara." Children who were orphens etc., left at the Camara were given that name. Could be that is why you cannot locate the parent. Also look at the marriage of Vicente and see if the parents are mentioned or the grandparents. I am told that if you start with marriage records it tells a lot about the family and also the signetures are usually family menbers. I have a friend in South Africa who was born in Lisboa and his name was Camara. He was able to locate his past by going to the archivo in Lisboa and actually was able to locate a cousin. They had both been in the Camara. He didnot know about the children usisng the Camara name if they were left there as orphans. If you go to the archives in Funchal you may find what you are looking for. Give it a try. Best wishes Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: <gregobhte1@aol.com> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:41 PM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Moniz Family > Hi Margaret.... > > I have an ancestor...Vasco Moniz de Meneses (died in 1692) from Sao > Vicente son of Capitain Antonio Figueiro and Ana de Gouveia (from > Machico). That Vasco married Dona Crispina de Meneses in 1684. Crispina > is the daughter of Capitain Cristovao Moniz da Camara. > > Being that you mentoned that you have Moniz in your family, maybe we > are related. By the way, for some reason even in the Arquivo Regional > da Madeira, they cannot find any records of Vasco's father and mother > and in that way im stuck and cannot trace back from there. Do u have > any info that could help me?? > > Thank you > > Leandro > > -----Original Message----- > From: marpg2000@comcast.net > To: luis_k_w@clix.pt; prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Sent: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11.35PM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > Dear Luis: > > Thanks for you input. What I find interesting is that it seems that > areas > of the islands have different interpretations of the de and da. > I have read many many of the documents in the films of the baptisms and > marriges and that is what I have learned. However, > things seem to vary from island to island. Interesting in my mothers > family > is that the name is d'Abreu Faria. NO da or de. Just plain d'. I > believe > that it means that they were from the Abreu clan. My fathers family > were > daSilva. No royalty but in the early days there were many capitaos and > donnas and could be that it was a matter of pride to use the da and de. > My > great grandfather was Moniz de Piedade. Moniz was the family name and > because they lived next to the church "Nossa Senhora de Piedade.", > I had a difficult time locating the family because I thought the name > was > Piedade. No such family. > > Not really a problem but a lot of time and work to try to get this all > straighten out. > > Best wishes > Margaret > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <luis_k_w@clix.pt> > To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 6:14 AM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > > Margaret, > > I am sorry, but you are completely wrong. :-)) > > > > MELLO (or Melo) and SILVA are villages. So, when you write "da Silva > de > Melo" (or "da Silva e Melo") it means that some ancestors were FROM > those > places. > > > > Any way, following the portuguese tradition, GENERALLY the father's > name > comes LAST (you wrote the oposite). > > > > You may have DA followed by the (FIRST) name of the mother when, for > instance, the father is unknown. For instance: DA RITA (name of the > wife of > the former president of Portugal). But, please remember, that was LONG > AGO > (a couple of centuries ago..). > > > > NOBRIGA (or NOBREGA) doesn't mean noble! It may (or may not) come > with a > "DE" (from) because it's the name of a place. There are places > (villages, > parrishes, - Note: it's FREGUESIA, not FRAGAZIA...) with that name. > > > > The example you wrote (Jose Campos) is true (the origin of the name > may > have been a nickname). Even so, it means that those people came FROM, or > lived IN the fields, so "DOS CAMPOS" is also correctly used. > > > > Luis de K. e W. :-) > > Lisboa-Portugal > > > > ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- > > Jose' > > NIce e-mail and I know that the "de" means "from". I have found that > in > > other islands the names use "de" and "da" to signify > > the mother and the fathers names. For instance. Joao da Silva de > Mello. > > Silva the fathers paternal name and Mello the mothers. > > Nobriga means noble however like some names it is acquired. If the > family > > lived in the "campo" then the name could be Jose > > da Souza Campos. In searching the records in the library you have to > be > > very careful because you can very easily track the wrong family. Or > search > > the wrong line. Very easy to do. > > > > Indeed the families worked the land and left their mark. They went to > > Hawaii, U.S.A., South America, Africa and India, China etc. > > Their ofspring have done well and owe it all to their ancestors. > They are > > proving how great the Portuguese people were and are whether they came > from > > one fragazia or another. > > > > Margaret > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca > > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 7:31 AM > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > > > > Margaret, > > > > We are surrounded by Nóbregas! Now the "de" added to the name got > carried > > away in Madeira. I don't give it too much importance. It was added to > show > > nobility and so on. I believe that most Madeirans come from > hardworking > > families that worked the land. Wed all come from good families. I am > proud > > of their achievements and their hard work. Our ancestors built Madeira > from > > nothing. Even to work the land took creativity, courage and hard work. > > > > I believe that many families in Camacha came originally from Caniço > and I > > encourage those researching families in Camacha not to forget about > Caniço. > > > > For example you mention the Ornellas. By the late 15th century they > already > > had extensive landholdings in Caniço. Many new colonists came to work > in > > their farms (fazenda). Under the old "colonia" system they owned most > of > the > > land rights in Caniço until late in the 20th century. > > > > Have a nice day. > > José Fernnades > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret > > Sent: January 17, 2007 6:02 PM > > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > > Jose: > > My mother in law was a deNobrega. Many use the name Nobriga however > in > > Camacha I found that her family all were identified by the deNobrega. > The > > original home was in Val de Paraiso and some of the later generation > still > > live there. Some went to Hawaii about 1906-7 and later to the U.S. > Many > of > > the later generation have done very well in the U.S, Africa and > Brazil. > > > > There is a branch in Brazil that is very famous in Radio, and T.V. > Have > > been for many years and several are medical doctors. > > In the U.S. the grandchildren are also doing well in what ever > endeaver > they > > choose. Some have married into the Ornellas family and have Freitas > and > > Gouveia cousins. The Africa connection went back to Madeira and is > with > the > > Portugese gorvernment. > > I say this because we are very happy with our connection to that part > of > the > > world. Our roots are good and strong. Thank you Madeira. > > > > Margaret > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca > > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:24 AM > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > > > > Didn't want to interrupt your conversation, but when you mention > Caniço I > am > > in! > > > > The Fernandes, in my case, have been in Caniço since the 16th > century. We > > have married into all of the families, including De Freitas and > Nóbrega. > In > > fact my grandmother was a Nóbrega. This was the 3rd we married into > the > > Nóbrega family. > > > > In Saudades da Terra, it is written that by the mid-17 century there > barely > > 200 (mostly huts) in the whole parish. The families there were mostly > > interconnected. > > > > Now a note on Camacha that you may already know. Camacha was part of > Caniço > > until the end of the Spanish regime. I believe around 1638 it became > its > own > > parish. I suspect many of the families were original settlers in > Caniço, > who > > gradually cleared more land up the mountain. So it was natural to have > much > > intermarriage between the two parishes. I have that in my family. > > > > Another interesting note was that reading a British writer, she > writes in > > the mid-18 century that in her opinion many of the people in Camacha > who > > were blond and red haired may have descended from a Scottish battalion > which > > was headquartered there during the British occupation of the island > in and > > around 1807 and 1814. > > > > Anyway, if you doing any research on Caniço, please let me know. > > > > Have a nice day. > > > > José > > -----Original Message----- > > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > Denise1270@aol.com > > Sent: January 13, 2007 1:57 PM > > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > > > > Hi Margaret, > > > > I went to Camacha and we even brought back some of those wicker > items. > One > > of them is a beautiful picnic basket. It's a really nice town. > > > > My grandfathers sister was married to Luis de Nobrega but I believe > he was > > from Canico not Camacha. I don't have any other info on his family. > I > > know > > he had a brother that lived in Cambridge, MA at one time. My > grandmothers > > family was from Sao Miguel, Acores, One of her uncles was married to > > Adelaide > > Cristina da Carmara d'Ornellas, she was from Sao Pedro, Funchal and > her > > parents were Pedro Jose de Ornellas and Elena Augusta da Camara. She > went > > to live > > in Sao Miguel. And I know she had a sister named Vicencia Julia da > Camara > > d'Ornellas. The Ornellas are from a well off line. I understand > there > is > > a > > street or something named after them. > > > > My grandfather said we had family that went near Oakland, CA but we > don't > > know who and they would be dead now. They were Freitas though. > > > > Denise > > > > In a message dated 1/13/2007 1:26:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > > marpg2000@comcast.net writes: > > > > Denise: > > > > The fun begins. My mother in law was Theresa deNobrega from Camacha. > Her > > family members still exist there and have a store, bar, and one > cousin > now > > owns the wicker factory and is the "mayor". My sister is married > to an > > Ornellas and they also reside in Camacha. In 1906 - 8 - 9, some of > those > > famillies went to Hawaii and later to the U.S. Their lives have been > very > > interesting and we marvel at how they were able to find their way > through > > to > > the U.S. Germano Ornellas was my brother in laws grandfather. They > also > > are related to the Miranda family. > > > > The Goveia family lived here also and followed the same route > through > > Hawaii. Some Freitas lived in San Leandro however many of those > mentioned > > here have sadly passed away. > > > > Nice place Camacha. Happy people, musical and dancers. There is a > bust > > of > > a A. Ornellas in the plaza there and he is a noble man who was from > Camacha > > and at one time quite prominent. > > > > Best wishes > > Margaret > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------- > > > > Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de ? 29,90/mês > > A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e > downloads > ilimitados! > > > > Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > ---- > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the > body of > the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Leandro: Very happy to hear from you. My grandmother was d'Abreu Faria and married Manoel Fernandes. I was able to get a copy of their cassamento but couldnot get back any further because between 1824 and 1860 records were not filmed. Also they lived in Campanario and the church Sao Braz was destroyed by fire and all records were lost. The archives in Funchal donot have the records either so it was a dead end. My mother always mentioned cousins "Moniz" who came to the U.S. and settled in Massachusetts but didnot mention how they were connected. On my fathers side the Moniz was in Sao Miguel, Azores. They go back to 1781 as far as I can see. Antonio Moniz de Piedade married Joanna Francesca 7, Feb/ 1811. Antonio son of Francisco Moniz de Piedade Joanna Francesca daughter of Henrique Joao Borges Maria, daughter of Antonio and Joanna born 11 May 1813 Interesting is that the Godfather of Maria was Jose' LEANDRO and Maria do Nasciemento, the fillhos do Henrique Joao Borges. Henrique Joao Borges is my gr. gr. gr. grandfather. The parents above were my gr. gr. grandparents and Antonio was known as Alferes Anttonio Moniz de Piedade in 1814. Coincidence dont you think. I couldnot get back any further because the records (films) were in very poor condition and not ledgeable. Maybe the Madeira Moniz went to Sao Miguel on vacation. Who knows? Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: <gregobhte1@aol.com> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:41 PM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Moniz Family > Hi Margaret.... > > I have an ancestor...Vasco Moniz de Meneses (died in 1692) from Sao > Vicente son of Capitain Antonio Figueiro and Ana de Gouveia (from > Machico). That Vasco married Dona Crispina de Meneses in 1684. Crispina > is the daughter of Capitain Cristovao Moniz da Camara. > > Being that you mentoned that you have Moniz in your family, maybe we > are related. By the way, for some reason even in the Arquivo Regional > da Madeira, they cannot find any records of Vasco's father and mother > and in that way im stuck and cannot trace back from there. Do u have > any info that could help me?? > > Thank you > > Leandro > > -----Original Message----- > From: marpg2000@comcast.net > To: luis_k_w@clix.pt; prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Sent: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11.35PM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > Dear Luis: > > Thanks for you input. What I find interesting is that it seems that > areas > of the islands have different interpretations of the de and da. > I have read many many of the documents in the films of the baptisms and > marriges and that is what I have learned. However, > things seem to vary from island to island. Interesting in my mothers > family > is that the name is d'Abreu Faria. NO da or de. Just plain d'. I > believe > that it means that they were from the Abreu clan. My fathers family > were > daSilva. No royalty but in the early days there were many capitaos and > donnas and could be that it was a matter of pride to use the da and de. > My > great grandfather was Moniz de Piedade. Moniz was the family name and > because they lived next to the church "Nossa Senhora de Piedade.", > I had a difficult time locating the family because I thought the name > was > Piedade. No such family. > > Not really a problem but a lot of time and work to try to get this all > straighten out. > > Best wishes > Margaret > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <luis_k_w@clix.pt> > To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 6:14 AM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > > Margaret, > > I am sorry, but you are completely wrong. :-)) > > > > MELLO (or Melo) and SILVA are villages. So, when you write "da Silva > de > Melo" (or "da Silva e Melo") it means that some ancestors were FROM > those > places. > > > > Any way, following the portuguese tradition, GENERALLY the father's > name > comes LAST (you wrote the oposite). > > > > You may have DA followed by the (FIRST) name of the mother when, for > instance, the father is unknown. For instance: DA RITA (name of the > wife of > the former president of Portugal). But, please remember, that was LONG > AGO > (a couple of centuries ago..). > > > > NOBRIGA (or NOBREGA) doesn't mean noble! It may (or may not) come > with a > "DE" (from) because it's the name of a place. There are places > (villages, > parrishes, - Note: it's FREGUESIA, not FRAGAZIA...) with that name. > > > > The example you wrote (Jose Campos) is true (the origin of the name > may > have been a nickname). Even so, it means that those people came FROM, or > lived IN the fields, so "DOS CAMPOS" is also correctly used. > > > > Luis de K. e W. :-) > > Lisboa-Portugal > > > > ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- > > Jose' > > NIce e-mail and I know that the "de" means "from". I have found that > in > > other islands the names use "de" and "da" to signify > > the mother and the fathers names. For instance. Joao da Silva de > Mello. > > Silva the fathers paternal name and Mello the mothers. > > Nobriga means noble however like some names it is acquired. If the > family > > lived in the "campo" then the name could be Jose > > da Souza Campos. In searching the records in the library you have to > be > > very careful because you can very easily track the wrong family. Or > search > > the wrong line. Very easy to do. > > > > Indeed the families worked the land and left their mark. They went to > > Hawaii, U.S.A., South America, Africa and India, China etc. > > Their ofspring have done well and owe it all to their ancestors. > They are > > proving how great the Portuguese people were and are whether they came > from > > one fragazia or another. > > > > Margaret > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca > > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 7:31 AM > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > > > > Margaret, > > > > We are surrounded by Nóbregas! Now the "de" added to the name got > carried > > away in Madeira. I don't give it too much importance. It was added to > show > > nobility and so on. I believe that most Madeirans come from > hardworking > > families that worked the land. Wed all come from good families. I am > proud > > of their achievements and their hard work. Our ancestors built Madeira > from > > nothing. Even to work the land took creativity, courage and hard work. > > > > I believe that many families in Camacha came originally from Caniço > and I > > encourage those researching families in Camacha not to forget about > Caniço. > > > > For example you mention the Ornellas. By the late 15th century they > already > > had extensive landholdings in Caniço. Many new colonists came to work > in > > their farms (fazenda). Under the old "colonia" system they owned most > of > the > > land rights in Caniço until late in the 20th century. > > > > Have a nice day. > > José Fernnades > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret > > Sent: January 17, 2007 6:02 PM > > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > > Jose: > > My mother in law was a deNobrega. Many use the name Nobriga however > in > > Camacha I found that her family all were identified by the deNobrega. > The > > original home was in Val de Paraiso and some of the later generation > still > > live there. Some went to Hawaii about 1906-7 and later to the U.S. > Many > of > > the later generation have done very well in the U.S, Africa and > Brazil. > > > > There is a branch in Brazil that is very famous in Radio, and T.V. > Have > > been for many years and several are medical doctors. > > In the U.S. the grandchildren are also doing well in what ever > endeaver > they > > choose. Some have married into the Ornellas family and have Freitas > and > > Gouveia cousins. The Africa connection went back to Madeira and is > with > the > > Portugese gorvernment. > > I say this because we are very happy with our connection to that part > of > the > > world. Our roots are good and strong. Thank you Madeira. > > > > Margaret > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca > > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:24 AM > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > > > > Didn't want to interrupt your conversation, but when you mention > Caniço I > am > > in! > > > > The Fernandes, in my case, have been in Caniço since the 16th > century. We > > have married into all of the families, including De Freitas and > Nóbrega. > In > > fact my grandmother was a Nóbrega. This was the 3rd we married into > the > > Nóbrega family. > > > > In Saudades da Terra, it is written that by the mid-17 century there > barely > > 200 (mostly huts) in the whole parish. The families there were mostly > > interconnected. > > > > Now a note on Camacha that you may already know. Camacha was part of > Caniço > > until the end of the Spanish regime. I believe around 1638 it became > its > own > > parish. I suspect many of the families were original settlers in > Caniço, > who > > gradually cleared more land up the mountain. So it was natural to have > much > > intermarriage between the two parishes. I have that in my family. > > > > Another interesting note was that reading a British writer, she > writes in > > the mid-18 century that in her opinion many of the people in Camacha > who > > were blond and red haired may have descended from a Scottish battalion > which > > was headquartered there during the British occupation of the island > in and > > around 1807 and 1814. > > > > Anyway, if you doing any research on Caniço, please let me know. > > > > Have a nice day. > > > > José > > -----Original Message----- > > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > Denise1270@aol.com > > Sent: January 13, 2007 1:57 PM > > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > > > > Hi Margaret, > > > > I went to Camacha and we even brought back some of those wicker > items. > One > > of them is a beautiful picnic basket. It's a really nice town. > > > > My grandfathers sister was married to Luis de Nobrega but I believe > he was > > from Canico not Camacha. I don't have any other info on his family. > I > > know > > he had a brother that lived in Cambridge, MA at one time. My > grandmothers > > family was from Sao Miguel, Acores, One of her uncles was married to > > Adelaide > > Cristina da Carmara d'Ornellas, she was from Sao Pedro, Funchal and > her > > parents were Pedro Jose de Ornellas and Elena Augusta da Camara. She > went > > to live > > in Sao Miguel. And I know she had a sister named Vicencia Julia da > Camara > > d'Ornellas. The Ornellas are from a well off line. I understand > there > is > > a > > street or something named after them. > > > > My grandfather said we had family that went near Oakland, CA but we > don't > > know who and they would be dead now. They were Freitas though. > > > > Denise > > > > In a message dated 1/13/2007 1:26:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > > marpg2000@comcast.net writes: > > > > Denise: > > > > The fun begins. My mother in law was Theresa deNobrega from Camacha. > Her > > family members still exist there and have a store, bar, and one > cousin > now > > owns the wicker factory and is the "mayor". My sister is married > to an > > Ornellas and they also reside in Camacha. In 1906 - 8 - 9, some of > those > > famillies went to Hawaii and later to the U.S. Their lives have been > very > > interesting and we marvel at how they were able to find their way > through > > to > > the U.S. Germano Ornellas was my brother in laws grandfather. They > also > > are related to the Miranda family. > > > > The Goveia family lived here also and followed the same route > through > > Hawaii. Some Freitas lived in San Leandro however many of those > mentioned > > here have sadly passed away. > > > > Nice place Camacha. Happy people, musical and dancers. There is a > bust > > of > > a A. Ornellas in the plaza there and he is a noble man who was from > Camacha > > and at one time quite prominent. > > > > Best wishes > > Margaret > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------- > > > > Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de ? 29,90/mês > > A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e > downloads > ilimitados! > > > > Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > ---- > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the > body of > the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Exactly, David. Long ago, one was baptised with his own name (MANUEL, MARIA, etc.), and only later - very often when they got married, or when they had to participate in any act where a full name was required - THEY would chose their family name. They could chose any family name (generaly their father's or mother's family name, but they could chose any other ancestor's family name). If you go back to the 1500's, you'll find people called FERNANDES whose parents were NUNES and GONÇALVES. It seems that they were trying to hide their original family. My guess is they were probably hidden Jews or Moors, or new-christians. The portuguese still law allows us to give our children any ancestor's family name. My sister gave to her children our mother's family name! Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- I read a few years ago (I can't recall the source.) that in the past, Portuguese children did not use surnames/family names until adulthood. At that time the person would choose a surname: mother or father's name or that of a grandparent. David DeGrella Tennessee USA On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:05:16 -0800 Scot Austin scotaustin@comcast.net writes: It seems to me that the Potuguese tradition is anything goes. Looking at my wife's family tree some lines change surnames every two or three generations. I was discussing this with a bartender in Ponta del Gada once and he told me he came from a familiy of ten and each child had a different surname. I asked him why and he said, "because that's what my father named us." I think de translates as either "of" or "from" depending which is appropriate. Sometimes it can be confusing. My son-in-law says he is "do Brasil". In English from the Brazil sounds wrong but not in Portuguese. I have noticed that Chico Doria always say "The Madeira" not simply Madeira. Scot Austin ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/

Hi Margaret.... I have an ancestor...Vasco Moniz de Meneses (died in 1692) from Sao Vicente son of Capitain Antonio Figueiro and Ana de Gouveia (from Machico). That Vasco married Dona Crispina de Meneses in 1684. Crispina is the daughter of Capitain Cristovao Moniz da Camara. Being that you mentoned that you have Moniz in your family, maybe we are related. By the way, for some reason even in the Arquivo Regional da Madeira, they cannot find any records of Vasco's father and mother and in that way im stuck and cannot trace back from there. Do u have any info that could help me?? Thank you Leandro -----Original Message----- From: marpg2000@comcast.net To: luis_k_w@clix.pt; prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11.35PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Dear Luis: Thanks for you input. What I find interesting is that it seems that areas of the islands have different interpretations of the de and da. I have read many many of the documents in the films of the baptisms and marriges and that is what I have learned. However, things seem to vary from island to island. Interesting in my mothers family is that the name is d'Abreu Faria. NO da or de. Just plain d'. I believe that it means that they were from the Abreu clan. My fathers family were daSilva. No royalty but in the early days there were many capitaos and donnas and could be that it was a matter of pride to use the da and de. My great grandfather was Moniz de Piedade. Moniz was the family name and because they lived next to the church "Nossa Senhora de Piedade.", I had a difficult time locating the family because I thought the name was Piedade. No such family. Not really a problem but a lot of time and work to try to get this all straighten out. Best wishes Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: <luis_k_w@clix.pt> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 6:14 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > Margaret, > I am sorry, but you are completely wrong. :-)) > > MELLO (or Melo) and SILVA are villages. So, when you write "da Silva de Melo" (or "da Silva e Melo") it means that some ancestors were FROM those places. > > Any way, following the portuguese tradition, GENERALLY the father's name comes LAST (you wrote the oposite). > > You may have DA followed by the (FIRST) name of the mother when, for instance, the father is unknown. For instance: DA RITA (name of the wife of the former president of Portugal). But, please remember, that was LONG AGO (a couple of centuries ago..). > > NOBRIGA (or NOBREGA) doesn't mean noble! It may (or may not) come with a "DE" (from) because it's the name of a place. There are places (villages, parrishes, - Note: it's FREGUESIA, not FRAGAZIA...) with that name. > > The example you wrote (Jose Campos) is true (the origin of the name may have been a nickname). Even so, it means that those people came FROM, or lived IN the fields, so "DOS CAMPOS" is also correctly used. > > Luis de K. e W. :-) > Lisboa-Portugal > > ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- > Jose' > NIce e-mail and I know that the "de" means "from". I have found that in > other islands the names use "de" and "da" to signify > the mother and the fathers names. For instance. Joao da Silva de Mello. > Silva the fathers paternal name and Mello the mothers. > Nobriga means noble however like some names it is acquired. If the family > lived in the "campo" then the name could be Jose > da Souza Campos. In searching the records in the library you have to be > very careful because you can very easily track the wrong family. Or search > the wrong line. Very easy to do. > > Indeed the families worked the land and left their mark. They went to > Hawaii, U.S.A., South America, Africa and India, China etc. > Their ofspring have done well and owe it all to their ancestors. They are > proving how great the Portuguese people were and are whether they came from > one fragazia or another. > > Margaret > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 7:31 AM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > Margaret, > > We are surrounded by Nóbregas! Now the "de" added to the name got carried > away in Madeira. I don't give it too much importance. It was added to show > nobility and so on. I believe that most Madeirans come from hardworking > families that worked the land. Wed all come from good families. I am proud > of their achievements and their hard work. Our ancestors built Madeira from > nothing. Even to work the land took creativity, courage and hard work. > > I believe that many families in Camacha came originally from Caniço and I > encourage those researching families in Camacha not to forget about Caniço. > > For example you mention the Ornellas. By the late 15th century they already > had extensive landholdings in Caniço. Many new colonists came to work in > their farms (fazenda). Under the old "colonia" system they owned most of the > land rights in Caniço until late in the 20th century. > > Have a nice day. > José Fernnades > > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret > Sent: January 17, 2007 6:02 PM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > Jose: > My mother in law was a deNobrega. Many use the name Nobriga however in > Camacha I found that her family all were identified by the deNobrega. The > original home was in Val de Paraiso and some of the later generation still > live there. Some went to Hawaii about 1906-7 and later to the U.S. Many of > the later generation have done very well in the U.S, Africa and Brazil. > > There is a branch in Brazil that is very famous in Radio, and T.V. Have > been for many years and several are medical doctors. > In the U.S. the grandchildren are also doing well in what ever endeaver they > choose. Some have married into the Ornellas family and have Freitas and > Gouveia cousins. The Africa connection went back to Madeira and is with the > Portugese gorvernment. > I say this because we are very happy with our connection to that part of the > world. Our roots are good and strong. Thank you Madeira. > > Margaret > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:24 AM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > Didn't want to interrupt your conversation, but when you mention Caniço I am > in! > > The Fernandes, in my case, have been in Caniço since the 16th century. We > have married into all of the families, including De Freitas and Nóbrega. In > fact my grandmother was a Nóbrega. This was the 3rd we married into the > Nóbrega family. > > In Saudades da Terra, it is written that by the mid-17 century there barely > 200 (mostly huts) in the whole parish. The families there were mostly > interconnected. > > Now a note on Camacha that you may already know. Camacha was part of Caniço > until the end of the Spanish regime. I believe around 1638 it became its own > parish. I suspect many of the families were original settlers in Caniço, who > gradually cleared more land up the mountain. So it was natural to have much > intermarriage between the two parishes. I have that in my family. > > Another interesting note was that reading a British writer, she writes in > the mid-18 century that in her opinion many of the people in Camacha who > were blond and red haired may have descended from a Scottish battalion which > was headquartered there during the British occupation of the island in and > around 1807 and 1814. > > Anyway, if you doing any research on Caniço, please let me know. > > Have a nice day. > > José > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Denise1270@aol.com > Sent: January 13, 2007 1:57 PM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > Hi Margaret, > > I went to Camacha and we even brought back some of those wicker items. One > of them is a beautiful picnic basket. It's a really nice town. > > My grandfathers sister was married to Luis de Nobrega but I believe he was > from Canico not Camacha. I don't have any other info on his family. I > know > he had a brother that lived in Cambridge, MA at one time. My grandmothers > family was from Sao Miguel, Acores, One of her uncles was married to > Adelaide > Cristina da Carmara d'Ornellas, she was from Sao Pedro, Funchal and her > parents were Pedro Jose de Ornellas and Elena Augusta da Camara. She went > to live > in Sao Miguel. And I know she had a sister named Vicencia Julia da Camara > d'Ornellas. The Ornellas are from a well off line. I understand there is > a > street or something named after them. > > My grandfather said we had family that went near Oakland, CA but we don't > know who and they would be dead now. They were Freitas though. > > Denise > > In a message dated 1/13/2007 1:26:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > marpg2000@comcast.net writes: > > Denise: > > The fun begins. My mother in law was Theresa deNobrega from Camacha. Her > family members still exist there and have a store, bar, and one cousin now > owns the wicker factory and is the "mayor". My sister is married to an > Ornellas and they also reside in Camacha. In 1906 - 8 - 9, some of those > famillies went to Hawaii and later to the U.S. Their lives have been very > interesting and we marvel at how they were able to find their way through > to > the U.S. Germano Ornellas was my brother in laws grandfather. They also > are related to the Miranda family. > > The Goveia family lived here also and followed the same route through > Hawaii. Some Freitas lived in San Leandro however many of those mentioned > here have sadly passed away. > > Nice place Camacha. Happy people, musical and dancers. There is a bust > of > a A. Ornellas in the plaza there and he is a noble man who was from Camacha > and at one time quite prominent. > > Best wishes > Margaret > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------- > > Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de ? 29,90/mês > A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! > > Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- ---- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I know, it's amazing the ignorance back then. And his brother didn't question or correct the teacher because he was after all the immigrant. It's a shame. Denise De Freitas D'Antona NY In a message dated 1/24/2007 10:00:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, david-nancy.degrella@juno.com writes: For my great grandfather, the US Army records has his name as DeGrilla. At least, no school teacher every tried to tell us our name was spelled wrong. David DeGrella Tennessee USA

I read a few years ago (I can't recall the source.) that in the past, Portuguese children did not use surnames/family names until adulthood. At that time the person would choose a surname: mother or father's name or that of a grandparent. David DeGrella Tennessee USA On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:05:16 -0800 Scot Austin <scotaustin@comcast.net> writes: > It seems to me that the Potuguese tradition is anything goes. Looking > at > my wife's family tree some lines change surnames every two or three > > generations. I was discussing this with a bartender in Ponta del > Gada > once and he told me he came from a familiy of ten and each child had > a > different surname. I asked him why and he said, "because that's what > my > father named us." > > I think de translates as either "of" or "from" depending which is > appropriate. Sometimes it can be confusing. My son-in-law says he is > "do > Brasil". In English from the Brazil sounds wrong but not in > Portuguese. > I have noticed that Chico Doria always say "The Madeira" not simply > Madeira. > > Scot Austin

For my great grandfather, the US Army records has his name as DeGrilla. At least, no school teacher every tried to tell us our name was spelled wrong. David DeGrella Tennessee USA On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 20:26:37 EST Denise1270@aol.com writes: > > In Madeira, my grandfather used Goncalves de Freitas. Upon coming > to the US > and joining the US Army, they made Goncalves his "middle name" and > the > surname became De Freitas. We use it with the space, though we do > have cousins > using just Freitas; and another cousin whose school teacher told > them their > name was wrong spelled Goncalves but should be Gonzales! > > Denise De Freitas D'Antona > > In a message dated 1/23/2007 8:17:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > david-nancy.degrella@juno.com writes: > > Making the "de" captial and part of the name is true for my name > with one > additional complication. The > "de" before Agrella made it flow so good, that Americans could not > hear > the "A". The name ended up being written DeGrella. Another note > of > interest is that my grandfather was married twice. His desendents > by the > first marriage consistently write the name with a space, De Grella, > and > the rest of us do not put a space in the name. > > David DeGrella > Tennessee USA

Dear Luis: Thanks for you input. What I find interesting is that it seems that areas of the islands have different interpretations of the de and da. I have read many many of the documents in the films of the baptisms and marriges and that is what I have learned. However, things seem to vary from island to island. Interesting in my mothers family is that the name is d'Abreu Faria. NO da or de. Just plain d'. I believe that it means that they were from the Abreu clan. My fathers family were daSilva. No royalty but in the early days there were many capitaos and donnas and could be that it was a matter of pride to use the da and de. My great grandfather was Moniz de Piedade. Moniz was the family name and because they lived next to the church "Nossa Senhora de Piedade.", I had a difficult time locating the family because I thought the name was Piedade. No such family. Not really a problem but a lot of time and work to try to get this all straighten out. Best wishes Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: <luis_k_w@clix.pt> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 6:14 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > Margaret, > I am sorry, but you are completely wrong. :-)) > > MELLO (or Melo) and SILVA are villages. So, when you write "da Silva de Melo" (or "da Silva e Melo") it means that some ancestors were FROM those places. > > Any way, following the portuguese tradition, GENERALLY the father's name comes LAST (you wrote the oposite). > > You may have DA followed by the (FIRST) name of the mother when, for instance, the father is unknown. For instance: DA RITA (name of the wife of the former president of Portugal). But, please remember, that was LONG AGO (a couple of centuries ago..). > > NOBRIGA (or NOBREGA) doesn't mean noble! It may (or may not) come with a "DE" (from) because it's the name of a place. There are places (villages, parrishes, - Note: it's FREGUESIA, not FRAGAZIA...) with that name. > > The example you wrote (Jose Campos) is true (the origin of the name may have been a nickname). Even so, it means that those people came FROM, or lived IN the fields, so "DOS CAMPOS" is also correctly used. > > Luis de K. e W. :-) > Lisboa-Portugal > > ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- > Jose' > NIce e-mail and I know that the "de" means "from". I have found that in > other islands the names use "de" and "da" to signify > the mother and the fathers names. For instance. Joao da Silva de Mello. > Silva the fathers paternal name and Mello the mothers. > Nobriga means noble however like some names it is acquired. If the family > lived in the "campo" then the name could be Jose > da Souza Campos. In searching the records in the library you have to be > very careful because you can very easily track the wrong family. Or search > the wrong line. Very easy to do. > > Indeed the families worked the land and left their mark. They went to > Hawaii, U.S.A., South America, Africa and India, China etc. > Their ofspring have done well and owe it all to their ancestors. They are > proving how great the Portuguese people were and are whether they came from > one fragazia or another. > > Margaret > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 7:31 AM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > Margaret, > > We are surrounded by Nóbregas! Now the "de" added to the name got carried > away in Madeira. I don't give it too much importance. It was added to show > nobility and so on. I believe that most Madeirans come from hardworking > families that worked the land. Wed all come from good families. I am proud > of their achievements and their hard work. Our ancestors built Madeira from > nothing. Even to work the land took creativity, courage and hard work. > > I believe that many families in Camacha came originally from Caniço and I > encourage those researching families in Camacha not to forget about Caniço. > > For example you mention the Ornellas. By the late 15th century they already > had extensive landholdings in Caniço. Many new colonists came to work in > their farms (fazenda). Under the old "colonia" system they owned most of the > land rights in Caniço until late in the 20th century. > > Have a nice day. > José Fernnades > > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret > Sent: January 17, 2007 6:02 PM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > Jose: > My mother in law was a deNobrega. Many use the name Nobriga however in > Camacha I found that her family all were identified by the deNobrega. The > original home was in Val de Paraiso and some of the later generation still > live there. Some went to Hawaii about 1906-7 and later to the U.S. Many of > the later generation have done very well in the U.S, Africa and Brazil. > > There is a branch in Brazil that is very famous in Radio, and T.V. Have > been for many years and several are medical doctors. > In the U.S. the grandchildren are also doing well in what ever endeaver they > choose. Some have married into the Ornellas family and have Freitas and > Gouveia cousins. The Africa connection went back to Madeira and is with the > Portugese gorvernment. > I say this because we are very happy with our connection to that part of the > world. Our roots are good and strong. Thank you Madeira. > > Margaret > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:24 AM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > Didn't want to interrupt your conversation, but when you mention Caniço I am > in! > > The Fernandes, in my case, have been in Caniço since the 16th century. We > have married into all of the families, including De Freitas and Nóbrega. In > fact my grandmother was a Nóbrega. This was the 3rd we married into the > Nóbrega family. > > In Saudades da Terra, it is written that by the mid-17 century there barely > 200 (mostly huts) in the whole parish. The families there were mostly > interconnected. > > Now a note on Camacha that you may already know. Camacha was part of Caniço > until the end of the Spanish regime. I believe around 1638 it became its own > parish. I suspect many of the families were original settlers in Caniço, who > gradually cleared more land up the mountain. So it was natural to have much > intermarriage between the two parishes. I have that in my family. > > Another interesting note was that reading a British writer, she writes in > the mid-18 century that in her opinion many of the people in Camacha who > were blond and red haired may have descended from a Scottish battalion which > was headquartered there during the British occupation of the island in and > around 1807 and 1814. > > Anyway, if you doing any research on Caniço, please let me know. > > Have a nice day. > > José > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Denise1270@aol.com > Sent: January 13, 2007 1:57 PM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > Hi Margaret, > > I went to Camacha and we even brought back some of those wicker items. One > of them is a beautiful picnic basket. It's a really nice town. > > My grandfathers sister was married to Luis de Nobrega but I believe he was > from Canico not Camacha. I don't have any other info on his family. I > know > he had a brother that lived in Cambridge, MA at one time. My grandmothers > family was from Sao Miguel, Acores, One of her uncles was married to > Adelaide > Cristina da Carmara d'Ornellas, she was from Sao Pedro, Funchal and her > parents were Pedro Jose de Ornellas and Elena Augusta da Camara. She went > to live > in Sao Miguel. And I know she had a sister named Vicencia Julia da Camara > d'Ornellas. The Ornellas are from a well off line. I understand there is > a > street or something named after them. > > My grandfather said we had family that went near Oakland, CA but we don't > know who and they would be dead now. They were Freitas though. > > Denise > > In a message dated 1/13/2007 1:26:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > marpg2000@comcast.net writes: > > Denise: > > The fun begins. My mother in law was Theresa deNobrega from Camacha. Her > family members still exist there and have a store, bar, and one cousin now > owns the wicker factory and is the "mayor". My sister is married to an > Ornellas and they also reside in Camacha. In 1906 - 8 - 9, some of those > famillies went to Hawaii and later to the U.S. Their lives have been very > interesting and we marvel at how they were able to find their way through > to > the U.S. Germano Ornellas was my brother in laws grandfather. They also > are related to the Miranda family. > > The Goveia family lived here also and followed the same route through > Hawaii. Some Freitas lived in San Leandro however many of those mentioned > here have sadly passed away. > > Nice place Camacha. Happy people, musical and dancers. There is a bust > of > a A. Ornellas in the plaza there and he is a noble man who was from Camacha > and at one time quite prominent. > > Best wishes > Margaret > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------- > > Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de ? 29,90/mês > A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! > > Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Luis B. Da Ressurreicao, do Rosario, de Sao Jose and other religious names often came with a FROM, I mean, "DE". Not only it makes the name sound and flow better, but it makes sense! The capitalized "De" doesn't exist in Portugal. As I wrote before, maybe in the US and other European countries, but not here. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- I have always heard that the addition of "de" and "da" to a name was not just to show roots but also to make the name flow better when said out loud. For example my 2nd great grandfather's name was Manuel Rodrigues da Ressurreicao, now try saying Manuel Rodrigues Ressurreicao and you'll notice that it just does not flow as easily. Another thing is I do not ever remember the use of a "da" or "de" capitalized except here in the states where somehow it just became attached as part of the family name, ex. Da Silva, De Nobrega... Luis Beal Pat, In response to your first paragraph for the list I would rather not comment. Luis living in Portugal might know what I am referring to. If you send me an e-mail directly to me at jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca I would be most pleased to give you a background. Use of "de" is as per Luis' comments and it means "from". Its use or lack of use got carried away in Madeira. That was my comment. Use of "da" may mean "of" because it refers to belonging to (feminine) and "do" is the masculine form. But that is a good question. Why use "da"? I don't know. As far as the priest is concerned it is possible what you say. In fact I suggest that is a possibility and that is misuse got out of hand in Madeira, specifically in the 19th century. Others may have a different reading. On the other hand, the standardization of the language is very recent. Even today there is still debate on the orthographical agreement with Brazil which it seems is not yet been implemented. In my opinion the language of today and its spelling owe a lot to contemporary writers such as Eça de Queiroz or Pessoa. Please also remember that I believe that most of the original noble families (or who became noble) left the islands a long time ago. Many spent their time in the Court in Lisbon and never returned. Many 2nd sons left to the Azores very early or to Brazil. Finally, I believe all our families survived and worked hard. That is what I am proud of. José ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/

Margaret, I am sorry, but you are completely wrong. :-)) MELLO (or Melo) and SILVA are villages. So, when you write "da Silva de Melo" (or "da Silva e Melo") it means that some ancestors were FROM those places. Any way, following the portuguese tradition, GENERALLY the father's name comes LAST (you wrote the oposite). You may have DA followed by the (FIRST) name of the mother when, for instance, the father is unknown. For instance: DA RITA (name of the wife of the former president of Portugal). But, please remember, that was LONG AGO (a couple of centuries ago..). NOBRIGA (or NOBREGA) doesn't mean noble! It may (or may not) come with a "DE" (from) because it's the name of a place. There are places (villages, parrishes, - Note: it's FREGUESIA, not FRAGAZIA...) with that name. The example you wrote (Jose Campos) is true (the origin of the name may have been a nickname). Even so, it means that those people came FROM, or lived IN the fields, so "DOS CAMPOS" is also correctly used. Luis de K. e W. :-) Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose' NIce e-mail and I know that the "de" means "from". I have found that in other islands the names use "de" and "da" to signify the mother and the fathers names. For instance. Joao da Silva de Mello. Silva the fathers paternal name and Mello the mothers. Nobriga means noble however like some names it is acquired. If the family lived in the "campo" then the name could be Jose da Souza Campos. In searching the records in the library you have to be very careful because you can very easily track the wrong family. Or search the wrong line. Very easy to do. Indeed the families worked the land and left their mark. They went to Hawaii, U.S.A., South America, Africa and India, China etc. Their ofspring have done well and owe it all to their ancestors. They are proving how great the Portuguese people were and are whether they came from one fragazia or another. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Margaret, We are surrounded by Nóbregas! Now the "de" added to the name got carried away in Madeira. I don't give it too much importance. It was added to show nobility and so on. I believe that most Madeirans come from hardworking families that worked the land. Wed all come from good families. I am proud of their achievements and their hard work. Our ancestors built Madeira from nothing. Even to work the land took creativity, courage and hard work. I believe that many families in Camacha came originally from Caniço and I encourage those researching families in Camacha not to forget about Caniço. For example you mention the Ornellas. By the late 15th century they already had extensive landholdings in Caniço. Many new colonists came to work in their farms (fazenda). Under the old "colonia" system they owned most of the land rights in Caniço until late in the 20th century. Have a nice day. José Fernnades -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Sent: January 17, 2007 6:02 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Jose: My mother in law was a deNobrega. Many use the name Nobriga however in Camacha I found that her family all were identified by the deNobrega. The original home was in Val de Paraiso and some of the later generation still live there. Some went to Hawaii about 1906-7 and later to the U.S. Many of the later generation have done very well in the U.S, Africa and Brazil. There is a branch in Brazil that is very famous in Radio, and T.V. Have been for many years and several are medical doctors. In the U.S. the grandchildren are also doing well in what ever endeaver they choose. Some have married into the Ornellas family and have Freitas and Gouveia cousins. The Africa connection went back to Madeira and is with the Portugese gorvernment. I say this because we are very happy with our connection to that part of the world. Our roots are good and strong. Thank you Madeira. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:24 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Didn't want to interrupt your conversation, but when you mention Caniço I am in! The Fernandes, in my case, have been in Caniço since the 16th century. We have married into all of the families, including De Freitas and Nóbrega. In fact my grandmother was a Nóbrega. This was the 3rd we married into the Nóbrega family. In Saudades da Terra, it is written that by the mid-17 century there barely 200 (mostly huts) in the whole parish. The families there were mostly interconnected. Now a note on Camacha that you may already know. Camacha was part of Caniço until the end of the Spanish regime. I believe around 1638 it became its own parish. I suspect many of the families were original settlers in Caniço, who gradually cleared more land up the mountain. So it was natural to have much intermarriage between the two parishes. I have that in my family. Another interesting note was that reading a British writer, she writes in the mid-18 century that in her opinion many of the people in Camacha who were blond and red haired may have descended from a Scottish battalion which was headquartered there during the British occupation of the island in and around 1807 and 1814. Anyway, if you doing any research on Caniço, please let me know. Have a nice day. José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Denise1270@aol.com Sent: January 13, 2007 1:57 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Hi Margaret, I went to Camacha and we even brought back some of those wicker items. One of them is a beautiful picnic basket. It's a really nice town. My grandfathers sister was married to Luis de Nobrega but I believe he was from Canico not Camacha. I don't have any other info on his family. I know he had a brother that lived in Cambridge, MA at one time. My grandmothers family was from Sao Miguel, Acores, One of her uncles was married to Adelaide Cristina da Carmara d'Ornellas, she was from Sao Pedro, Funchal and her parents were Pedro Jose de Ornellas and Elena Augusta da Camara. She went to live in Sao Miguel. And I know she had a sister named Vicencia Julia da Camara d'Ornellas. The Ornellas are from a well off line. I understand there is a street or something named after them. My grandfather said we had family that went near Oakland, CA but we don't know who and they would be dead now. They were Freitas though. Denise In a message dated 1/13/2007 1:26:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, marpg2000@comcast.net writes: Denise: The fun begins. My mother in law was Theresa deNobrega from Camacha. Her family members still exist there and have a store, bar, and one cousin now owns the wicker factory and is the "mayor". My sister is married to an Ornellas and they also reside in Camacha. In 1906 - 8 - 9, some of those famillies went to Hawaii and later to the U.S. Their lives have been very interesting and we marvel at how they were able to find their way through to the U.S. Germano Ornellas was my brother in laws grandfather. They also are related to the Miranda family. The Goveia family lived here also and followed the same route through Hawaii. Some Freitas lived in San Leandro however many of those mentioned here have sadly passed away. Nice place Camacha. Happy people, musical and dancers. There is a bust of a A. Ornellas in the plaza there and he is a noble man who was from Camacha and at one time quite prominent. Best wishes Margaret ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/

It seems to me that the Potuguese tradition is anything goes. Looking at my wife's family tree some lines change surnames every two or three generations. I was discussing this with a bartender in Ponta del Gada once and he told me he came from a familiy of ten and each child had a different surname. I asked him why and he said, "because that's what my father named us." I think de translates as either "of" or "from" depending which is appropriate. Sometimes it can be confusing. My son-in-law says he is "do Brasil". In English from the Brazil sounds wrong but not in Portuguese. I have noticed that Chico Doria always say "The Madeira" not simply Madeira. Scot Austin luis_k_w@clix.pt wrote: > Margaret, > I am sorry, but you are completely wrong. :-)) > > MELLO (or Melo) and SILVA are villages. So, when you write "da Silva de Melo" (or "da Silva e Melo") it means that some ancestors were FROM those places. > > Any way, following the portuguese tradition, GENERALLY the father's name comes LAST (you wrote the oposite). > > You may have DA followed by the (FIRST) name of the mother when, for instance, the father is unknown. For instance: DA RITA (name of the wife of the former president of Portugal). But, please remember, that was LONG AGO (a couple of centuries ago..). > > NOBRIGA (or NOBREGA) doesn't mean noble! It may (or may not) come with a "DE" (from) because it's the name of a place. There are places (villages, parrishes, - Note: it's FREGUESIA, not FRAGAZIA...) with that name. > > The example you wrote (Jose Campos) is true (the origin of the name may have been a nickname). Even so, it means that those people came FROM, or lived IN the fields, so "DOS CAMPOS" is also correctly used. > > Luis de K. e W. :-) > Lisboa-Portugal > > ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- > Jose' > NIce e-mail and I know that the "de" means "from". I have found that in > other islands the names use "de" and "da" to signify > the mother and the fathers names. For instance. Joao da Silva de Mello. > Silva the fathers paternal name and Mello the mothers. > Nobriga means noble however like some names it is acquired. If the family > lived in the "campo" then the name could be Jose > da Souza Campos. In searching the records in the library you have to be > very careful because you can very easily track the wrong family. Or search > the wrong line. Very easy to do. > > Indeed the families worked the land and left their mark. They went to > Hawaii, U.S.A., South America, Africa and India, China etc. > Their ofspring have done well and owe it all to their ancestors. They are > proving how great the Portuguese people were and are whether they came from > one fragazia or another. > > Margaret > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 7:31 AM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > Margaret, > > We are surrounded by Nóbregas! Now the "de" added to the name got carried > away in Madeira. I don't give it too much importance. It was added to show > nobility and so on. I believe that most Madeirans come from hardworking > families that worked the land. Wed all come from good families. I am proud > of their achievements and their hard work. Our ancestors built Madeira from > nothing. Even to work the land took creativity, courage and hard work. > > I believe that many families in Camacha came originally from Caniço and I > encourage those researching families in Camacha not to forget about Caniço. > > For example you mention the Ornellas. By the late 15th century they already > had extensive landholdings in Caniço. Many new colonists came to work in > their farms (fazenda). Under the old "colonia" system they owned most of the > land rights in Caniço until late in the 20th century. > > Have a nice day. > José Fernnades > > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret > Sent: January 17, 2007 6:02 PM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > Jose: > My mother in law was a deNobrega. Many use the name Nobriga however in > Camacha I found that her family all were identified by the deNobrega. The > original home was in Val de Paraiso and some of the later generation still > live there. Some went to Hawaii about 1906-7 and later to the U.S. Many of > the later generation have done very well in the U.S, Africa and Brazil. > > There is a branch in Brazil that is very famous in Radio, and T.V. Have > been for many years and several are medical doctors. > In the U.S. the grandchildren are also doing well in what ever endeaver they > choose. Some have married into the Ornellas family and have Freitas and > Gouveia cousins. The Africa connection went back to Madeira and is with the > Portugese gorvernment. > I say this because we are very happy with our connection to that part of the > world. Our roots are good and strong. Thank you Madeira. > > Margaret > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:24 AM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > Didn't want to interrupt your conversation, but when you mention Caniço I am > in! > > The Fernandes, in my case, have been in Caniço since the 16th century. We > have married into all of the families, including De Freitas and Nóbrega. In > fact my grandmother was a Nóbrega. This was the 3rd we married into the > Nóbrega family. > > In Saudades da Terra, it is written that by the mid-17 century there barely > 200 (mostly huts) in the whole parish. The families there were mostly > interconnected. > > Now a note on Camacha that you may already know. Camacha was part of Caniço > until the end of the Spanish regime. I believe around 1638 it became its own > parish. I suspect many of the families were original settlers in Caniço, who > gradually cleared more land up the mountain. So it was natural to have much > intermarriage between the two parishes. I have that in my family. > > Another interesting note was that reading a British writer, she writes in > the mid-18 century that in her opinion many of the people in Camacha who > were blond and red haired may have descended from a Scottish battalion which > was headquartered there during the British occupation of the island in and > around 1807 and 1814. > > Anyway, if you doing any research on Caniço, please let me know. > > Have a nice day. > > José > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Denise1270@aol.com > Sent: January 13, 2007 1:57 PM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > Hi Margaret, > > I went to Camacha and we even brought back some of those wicker items. One > of them is a beautiful picnic basket. It's a really nice town. > > My grandfathers sister was married to Luis de Nobrega but I believe he was > from Canico not Camacha. I don't have any other info on his family. I > know > he had a brother that lived in Cambridge, MA at one time. My grandmothers > family was from Sao Miguel, Acores, One of her uncles was married to > Adelaide > Cristina da Carmara d'Ornellas, she was from Sao Pedro, Funchal and her > parents were Pedro Jose de Ornellas and Elena Augusta da Camara. She went > to live > in Sao Miguel. And I know she had a sister named Vicencia Julia da Camara > d'Ornellas. The Ornellas are from a well off line. I understand there is > a > street or something named after them. > > My grandfather said we had family that went near Oakland, CA but we don't > know who and they would be dead now. They were Freitas though. > > Denise > > In a message dated 1/13/2007 1:26:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > marpg2000@comcast.net writes: > > Denise: > > The fun begins. My mother in law was Theresa deNobrega from Camacha. Her > family members still exist there and have a store, bar, and one cousin now > owns the wicker factory and is the "mayor". My sister is married to an > Ornellas and they also reside in Camacha. In 1906 - 8 - 9, some of those > famillies went to Hawaii and later to the U.S. Their lives have been very > interesting and we marvel at how they were able to find their way through > to > the U.S. Germano Ornellas was my brother in laws grandfather. They also > are related to the Miranda family. > > The Goveia family lived here also and followed the same route through > Hawaii. Some Freitas lived in San Leandro however many of those mentioned > here have sadly passed away. > > Nice place Camacha. Happy people, musical and dancers. There is a bust > of > a A. Ornellas in the plaza there and he is a noble man who was from Camacha > and at one time quite prominent. > > Best wishes > Margaret > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------- > > Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês > A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! > > Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In Madeira, my grandfather used Goncalves de Freitas. Upon coming to the US and joining the US Army, they made Goncalves his "middle name" and the surname became De Freitas. We use it with the space, though we do have cousins using just Freitas; and another cousin whose school teacher told them their name was wrong spelled Goncalves but should be Gonzales! Denise De Freitas D'Antona In a message dated 1/23/2007 8:17:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, david-nancy.degrella@juno.com writes: Making the "de" captial and part of the name is true for my name with one additional complication. The "de" before Agrella made it flow so good, that Americans could not hear the "A". The name ended up being written DeGrella. Another note of interest is that my grandfather was married twice. His desendents by the first marriage consistently write the name with a space, De Grella, and the rest of us do not put a space in the name. David DeGrella Tennessee USA

Jose' I understand your point, and I believe you're absolutely right. So... are you saying that the priests who wrote the Baptism Records were the cause of the social discrimination still existing in Madeira? Just kidding! Just kidding!! :-)) Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal --------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Luis, I agree that it does not show nobility. However, it became in Madeira an attempt to show nobility. Some people insisted in having the "de" according to the rules that you have indicated. Now try to convince a priest in a little village to add a "de", and you are a poor man or a "vilão" and you will see the difference. Why do you think there are Da Silva and just Silva? Economy of words? Would it show class? Would it attempt to show your place in society? In an island where most were illiterate (before 1960) why did the priest follow your rule for some and not for others? Finally, there are rules but in Madeira we make our own rules. In fact given the current circumstances more so today than ever in our history! Nevertheless, when I have an opportunity I will contact Dr. Albert Vieira about this. Cheers José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: January 23, 2007 1:09 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Sorry Jose', A "de" before a toponimic(spl?) name doesn't show nobility at all. That's (probably) in French and Belgium, etc. where they pay a lot of atention and caution to the use of "de avec un petit d". "De" means FROM. And that's why all the ALBUQUERQUE, ALMEIDA, ATAIDE, BASTOS, SILVA, NOBREGA, etc. (which are names of towns and places) should use a DE (or DA) before the name. My family, from my mother's side, is «DE MELO E LIMA» (from Melo and from Lima) and «DE CASTRO E SOUSA». That's absolutely correct. And it doesn't mean they were all noble. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Margaret, We are surrounded by Nóbregas! Now the "de" added to the name got carried away in Madeira. I don't give it too much importance. It was added to show nobility and so on. I believe that most Madeirans come from hardworking families that worked the land. Wed all come from good families. I am proud of their achievements and their hard work. Our ancestors built Madeira from nothing. Even to work the land took creativity, courage and hard work. I believe that many families in Camacha came originally from Caniço and I encourage those researching families in Camacha not to forget about Caniço. For example you mention the Ornellas. By the late 15th century they already had extensive landholdings in Caniço. Many new colonists came to work in their farms (fazenda). Under the old "colonia" system they owned most of the land rights in Caniço until late in the 20th century. Have a nice day. José Fernnades -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Sent: January 17, 2007 6:02 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Jose: My mother in law was a deNobrega. Many use the name Nobriga however in Camacha I found that her family all were identified by the deNobrega. The original home was in Val de Paraiso and some of the later generation still live there. Some went to Hawaii about 1906-7 and later to the U.S. Many of the later generation have done very well in the U.S, Africa and Brazil. There is a branch in Brazil that is very famous in Radio, and T.V. Have been for many years and several are medical doctors. In the U.S. the grandchildren are also doing well in what ever endeaver they choose. Some have married into the Ornellas family and have Freitas and Gouveia cousins. The Africa connection went back to Madeira and is with the Portugese gorvernment. I say this because we are very happy with our connection to that part of the world. Our roots are good and strong. Thank you Madeira. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:24 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Didn't want to interrupt your conversation, but when you mention Caniço I am in! The Fernandes, in my case, have been in Caniço since the 16th century. We have married into all of the families, including De Freitas and Nóbrega. In fact my grandmother was a Nóbrega. This was the 3rd we married into the Nóbrega family. In Saudades da Terra, it is written that by the mid-17 century there barely 200 (mostly huts) in the whole parish. The families there were mostly interconnected. Now a note on Camacha that you may already know. Camacha was part of Caniço until the end of the Spanish regime. I believe around 1638 it became its own parish. I suspect many of the families were original settlers in Caniço, who gradually cleared more land up the mountain. So it was natural to have much intermarriage between the two parishes. I have that in my family. Another interesting note was that reading a British writer, she writes in the mid-18 century that in her opinion many of the people in Camacha who were blond and red haired may have descended from a Scottish battalion which was headquartered there during the British occupation of the island in and around 1807 and 1814. Anyway, if you doing any research on Caniço, please let me know. Have a nice day. José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Denise1270@aol.com Sent: January 13, 2007 1:57 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Hi Margaret, I went to Camacha and we even brought back some of those wicker items. One of them is a beautiful picnic basket. It's a really nice town. My grandfathers sister was married to Luis de Nobrega but I believe he was from Canico not Camacha. I don't have any other info on his family. I know he had a brother that lived in Cambridge, MA at one time. My grandmothers family was from Sao Miguel, Acores, One of her uncles was married to Adelaide Cristina da Carmara d'Ornellas, she was from Sao Pedro, Funchal and her parents were Pedro Jose de Ornellas and Elena Augusta da Camara. She went to live in Sao Miguel. And I know she had a sister named Vicencia Julia da Camara d'Ornellas. The Ornellas are from a well off line. I understand there is a street or something named after them. My grandfather said we had family that went near Oakland, CA but we don't know who and they would be dead now. They were Freitas though. Denise In a message dated 1/13/2007 1:26:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, marpg2000@comcast.net writes: Denise: The fun begins. My mother in law was Theresa deNobrega from Camacha. Her family members still exist there and have a store, bar, and one cousin now owns the wicker factory and is the "mayor". My sister is married to an Ornellas and they also reside in Camacha. In 1906 - 8 - 9, some of those famillies went to Hawaii and later to the U.S. Their lives have been very interesting and we marvel at how they were able to find their way through to the U.S. Germano Ornellas was my brother in laws grandfather. They also are related to the Miranda family. The Goveia family lived here also and followed the same route through Hawaii. Some Freitas lived in San Leandro however many of those mentioned here have sadly passed away. Nice place Camacha. Happy people, musical and dancers. There is a bust of a A. Ornellas in the plaza there and he is a noble man who was from Camacha and at one time quite prominent. Best wishes Margaret ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/

Making the "de" captial and part of the name is true for my name with one additional complication. The "de" before Agrella made it flow so good, that Americans could not hear the "A". The name ended up being written DeGrella. Another note of interest is that my grandfather was married twice. His desendents by the first marriage consistently write the name with a space, De Grella, and the rest of us do not put a space in the name. David DeGrella Tennessee USA On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:22:49 -0800 (PST) Luis Beal <luisbeal@yahoo.com> writes: > I have always heard that the addition of "de" and "da" to a name was > not just to show roots but also to make the name flow better when > said out loud. For example my 2nd great grandfather's name was > Manuel Rodrigues da Ressurreicao, now try saying Manuel Rodrigues > Ressurreicao and you'll notice that it just does not flow as easily. > > Another thing is I do not ever remember the use of a "da" or "de" > capitalized except here in the states where somehow it just became > attached as part of the family name, ex. Da Silva, De Nobrega... > > Luis Beal > > > > Pat, > > In response to your first paragraph for the list I would rather not > comment. Luis living in Portugal might know what I am referring to. > If you send me an e-mail directly to me at > jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca I would be most pleased to give you a > background. > > Use of "de" is as per Luis' comments and it means "from". Its use or > lack of use got carried away in Madeira. That was my comment. Use of > "da" may mean "of" because it refers to belonging to (feminine) and > "do" is the masculine form. But that is a good question. Why use > "da"? I don't know. > > As far as the priest is concerned it is possible what you say. In > fact I suggest that is a possibility and that is misuse got out of > hand in Madeira, specifically in the 19th century. Others may have a > different reading. On the other hand, the standardization of the > language is very recent. Even today there is still debate on the > orthographical agreement with Brazil which it seems is not yet been > implemented. In my opinion the language of today and its spelling > owe a lot to contemporary writers such as Eça de Queiroz or Pessoa. > > Please also remember that I believe that most of the original noble > families (or who became noble) left the islands a long time ago. > Many spent their time in the Court in Lisbon and never returned. Many > 2nd sons left to the Azores very early or to Brazil. > > Finally, I believe all our families survived and worked hard. That > is what I am proud of. > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Patricia > Corbera > Sent: January 23, 2007 4:20 PM > To: luis_k_w@clix.pt; prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > Jose, > I'm confused by your statement - "Finally, there are rules but in > Madeira we make our own rules. In fact given the current > circumstances more so today than ever in our history! " > Please help me understand what you meant by this statement, > especially the part about the "current circumstances." > Using your example of "Da Silva," and "just Silva," I thought the > only use of Da was to indicate "of." All the documents that I have > for my "da Silva Se' " ancestors from Madeira the Priest used the > "da," is it correct to say/think that these ancestors were people of > "means/nobles," in the eyes of the Priest and of the villagers where > they resided? > > I actually think Priests followed their "own," way of writing, as > evident with the various spelling variations that is seen in early > documents. > > Pat Silva Corbera > California USA > > > > luis_k_w@clix.pt wrote: > Jose' > I understand your point, and I believe you're absolutely right. > > So... are you saying that the priests who wrote the Baptism Records > were the cause of the social discrimination still existing in > Madeira? > > Just kidding! Just kidding!! :-)) > > Luis K W > Lisboa-Portugal > --------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- > Luis, > I agree that it does not show nobility. However, it became in > Madeira an attempt to show nobility. Some people insisted in having > the "de" according to the rules that you have indicated. Now try to > convince a priest in a little village to add a "de", and you are a > poor man or a "vilão" and you will see the difference. Why do you > think there are Da Silva and just Silva? Economy of words? Would it > show class? Would it attempt to show your place in society? In an > island where most were illiterate (before 1960) why did the priest > follow your rule for some and not for others? > Finally, there are rules but in Madeira we make our own rules. In > fact given the current circumstances more so today than ever in our > history! > Nevertheless, when I have an opportunity I will contact Dr. Albert > Vieira about this. > > Cheers > > José > > > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > luis_k_w@clix.pt > Sent: January 23, 2007 1:09 PM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > Sorry Jose', > A "de" before a toponimic(spl?) name doesn't show nobility at all. > > That's (probably) in French and Belgium, etc. where they pay a lot > of atention and caution to the use of "de avec un petit d". > > "De" means FROM. And that's why all the ALBUQUERQUE, ALMEIDA, > ATAIDE, BASTOS, SILVA, NOBREGA, etc. (which are names of towns and > places) should use a DE (or DA) before the name. > > My family, from my mother's side, is «DE MELO E LIMA» (from Melo and > from Lima) and «DE CASTRO E SOUSA». That's absolutely correct. And > it doesn't mean they were all noble. > > Luis K W > Lisboa-Portugal > ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- > Margaret, > > We are surrounded by Nóbregas! Now the "de" added to the name got > carried away in Madeira. I don't give it too much importance. It was > added to show nobility and so on. I believe that most Madeirans come > from hardworking families that worked the land. Wed all come from > good families. I am proud of their achievements and their hard work. > Our ancestors built Madeira from nothing. Even to work the land took > creativity, courage and hard work. > > I believe that many families in Camacha came originally from Caniço > and I encourage those researching families in Camacha not to forget > about Caniço. > > For example you mention the Ornellas. By the late 15th century they > already had extensive landholdings in Caniço. Many new colonists > came to work in their farms (fazenda). Under the old "colonia" > system they owned most of the land rights in Caniço until late in > the 20th century. > > Have a nice day. > José Fernnades > > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret > Sent: January 17, 2007 6:02 PM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > Jose: > My mother in law was a deNobrega. Many use the name Nobriga however > in > Camacha I found that her family all were identified by the > deNobrega. The > original home was in Val de Paraiso and some of the later generation > still > live there. Some went to Hawaii about 1906-7 and later to the U.S. > Many of > the later generation have done very well in the U.S, Africa and > Brazil. > > There is a branch in Brazil that is very famous in Radio, and T.V. > Have > been for many years and several are medical doctors. > In the U.S. the grandchildren are also doing well in what ever > endeaver they > choose. Some have married into the Ornellas family and have Freitas > and > Gouveia cousins. The Africa connection went back to Madeira and is > with the > Portugese gorvernment. > I say this because we are very happy with our connection to that part > of the > world. Our roots are good and strong. Thank you Madeira. > > Margaret > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:24 AM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > Didn't want to interrupt your conversation, but when you mention > Caniço I am > in! > > The Fernandes, in my case, have been in Caniço since the 16th > century. We > have married into all of the families, including De Freitas and > Nóbrega. In > fact my grandmother was a Nóbrega. This was the 3rd we married into > the > Nóbrega family. > > In Saudades da Terra, it is written that by the mid-17 century there > barely > 200 (mostly huts) in the whole parish. The families there were > mostly > interconnected. > > Now a note on Camacha that you may already know. Camacha was part of > Caniço > until the end of the Spanish regime. I believe around 1638 it became > its own > parish. I suspect many of the families were original settlers in > Caniço, who > gradually cleared more land up the mountain. So it was natural to > have much > intermarriage between the two parishes. I have that in my family. > > Another interesting note was that reading a British writer, she > writes in > the mid-18 century that in her opinion many of the people in Camacha > who > were blond and red haired may have descended from a Scottish > battalion which > was headquartered there during the British occupation of the island > in and > around 1807 and 1814. > > Anyway, if you doing any research on Caniço, please let me know. > > Have a nice day. > > José > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > Denise1270@aol.com > Sent: January 13, 2007 1:57 PM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website > > > Hi Margaret, > > I went to Camacha and we even brought back some of those wicker > items. One > of them is a beautiful picnic basket. It's a really nice town. > > My grandfathers sister was married to Luis de Nobrega but I believe > he was > from Canico not Camacha. I don't have any other info on his family. > I > know > he had a brother that lived in Cambridge, MA at one time. My > grandmothers > family was from Sao Miguel, Acores, One of her uncles was married > to > Adelaide > Cristina da Carmara d'Ornellas, she was from Sao Pedro, Funchal and > her > parents were Pedro Jose de Ornellas and Elena Augusta da Camara. She > went > to live > in Sao Miguel. And I know she had a sister named Vicencia Julia da > Camara > d'Ornellas. The Ornellas are from a well off line. I understand > there is > a > street or something named after them. > > My grandfather said we had family that went near Oakland, CA but we > don't > know who and they would be dead now. They were Freitas though. > > Denise > > In a message dated 1/13/2007 1:26:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > marpg2000@comcast.net writes: > > Denise: > > The fun begins. My mother in law was Theresa deNobrega from Camacha. > Her > family members still exist there and have a store, bar, and one > cousin now > owns the wicker factory and is the "mayor". My sister is married to > an > Ornellas and they also reside in Camacha. In 1906 - 8 - 9, some of > those > famillies went to Hawaii and later to the U.S. Their lives have been > very > interesting and we marvel at how they were able to find their way > through > to > the U.S. Germano Ornellas was my brother in laws grandfather. They > also > are related to the Miranda family. > > The Goveia family lived here also and followed the same route > through > Hawaii. Some Freitas lived in San Leandro however many of those > mentioned > here have sadly passed away. > > Nice place Camacha. Happy people, musical and dancers. There is a > bust > of > a A. Ornellas in the plaza there and he is a noble man who was from > Camacha > and at one time quite prominent. > > Best wishes > Margaret

Sorry Jose', A "de" before a toponimic(spl?) name doesn't show nobility at all. That's (probably) in French and Belgium, etc. where they pay a lot of atention and caution to the use of "de avec un petit d". "De" means FROM. And that's why all the ALBUQUERQUE, ALMEIDA, ATAIDE, BASTOS, SILVA, NOBREGA, etc. (which are names of towns and places) should use a DE (or DA) before the name. My family, from my mother's side, is «DE MELO E LIMA» (from Melo and from Lima) and «DE CASTRO E SOUSA». That's absolutely correct. And it doesn't mean they were all noble. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Margaret, We are surrounded by Nóbregas! Now the "de" added to the name got carried away in Madeira. I don't give it too much importance. It was added to show nobility and so on. I believe that most Madeirans come from hardworking families that worked the land. Wed all come from good families. I am proud of their achievements and their hard work. Our ancestors built Madeira from nothing. Even to work the land took creativity, courage and hard work. I believe that many families in Camacha came originally from Caniço and I encourage those researching families in Camacha not to forget about Caniço. For example you mention the Ornellas. By the late 15th century they already had extensive landholdings in Caniço. Many new colonists came to work in their farms (fazenda). Under the old "colonia" system they owned most of the land rights in Caniço until late in the 20th century. Have a nice day. José Fernnades -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Sent: January 17, 2007 6:02 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Jose: My mother in law was a deNobrega. Many use the name Nobriga however in Camacha I found that her family all were identified by the deNobrega. The original home was in Val de Paraiso and some of the later generation still live there. Some went to Hawaii about 1906-7 and later to the U.S. Many of the later generation have done very well in the U.S, Africa and Brazil. There is a branch in Brazil that is very famous in Radio, and T.V. Have been for many years and several are medical doctors. In the U.S. the grandchildren are also doing well in what ever endeaver they choose. Some have married into the Ornellas family and have Freitas and Gouveia cousins. The Africa connection went back to Madeira and is with the Portugese gorvernment. I say this because we are very happy with our connection to that part of the world. Our roots are good and strong. Thank you Madeira. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:24 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Didn't want to interrupt your conversation, but when you mention Caniço I am in! The Fernandes, in my case, have been in Caniço since the 16th century. We have married into all of the families, including De Freitas and Nóbrega. In fact my grandmother was a Nóbrega. This was the 3rd we married into the Nóbrega family. In Saudades da Terra, it is written that by the mid-17 century there barely 200 (mostly huts) in the whole parish. The families there were mostly interconnected. Now a note on Camacha that you may already know. Camacha was part of Caniço until the end of the Spanish regime. I believe around 1638 it became its own parish. I suspect many of the families were original settlers in Caniço, who gradually cleared more land up the mountain. So it was natural to have much intermarriage between the two parishes. I have that in my family. Another interesting note was that reading a British writer, she writes in the mid-18 century that in her opinion many of the people in Camacha who were blond and red haired may have descended from a Scottish battalion which was headquartered there during the British occupation of the island in and around 1807 and 1814. Anyway, if you doing any research on Caniço, please let me know. Have a nice day. José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Denise1270@aol.com Sent: January 13, 2007 1:57 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Hi Margaret, I went to Camacha and we even brought back some of those wicker items. One of them is a beautiful picnic basket. It's a really nice town. My grandfathers sister was married to Luis de Nobrega but I believe he was from Canico not Camacha. I don't have any other info on his family. I know he had a brother that lived in Cambridge, MA at one time. My grandmothers family was from Sao Miguel, Acores, One of her uncles was married to Adelaide Cristina da Carmara d'Ornellas, she was from Sao Pedro, Funchal and her parents were Pedro Jose de Ornellas and Elena Augusta da Camara. She went to live in Sao Miguel. And I know she had a sister named Vicencia Julia da Camara d'Ornellas. The Ornellas are from a well off line. I understand there is a street or something named after them. My grandfather said we had family that went near Oakland, CA but we don't know who and they would be dead now. They were Freitas though. Denise In a message dated 1/13/2007 1:26:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, marpg2000@comcast.net writes: Denise: The fun begins. My mother in law was Theresa deNobrega from Camacha. Her family members still exist there and have a store, bar, and one cousin now owns the wicker factory and is the "mayor". My sister is married to an Ornellas and they also reside in Camacha. In 1906 - 8 - 9, some of those famillies went to Hawaii and later to the U.S. Their lives have been very interesting and we marvel at how they were able to find their way through to the U.S. Germano Ornellas was my brother in laws grandfather. They also are related to the Miranda family. The Goveia family lived here also and followed the same route through Hawaii. Some Freitas lived in San Leandro however many of those mentioned here have sadly passed away. Nice place Camacha. Happy people, musical and dancers. There is a bust of a A. Ornellas in the plaza there and he is a noble man who was from Camacha and at one time quite prominent. Best wishes Margaret ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/

Pat, In response to your first paragraph for the list I would rather not comment. Luis living in Portugal might know what I am referring to. If you send me an e-mail directly to me at jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca I would be most pleased to give you a background. Use of "de" is as per Luis' comments and it means "from". Its use or lack of use got carried away in Madeira. That was my comment. Use of "da" may mean "of" because it refers to belonging to (feminine) and "do" is the masculine form. But that is a good question. Why use "da"? I don't know. As far as the priest is concerned it is possible what you say. In fact I suggest that is a possibility and that is misuse got out of hand in Madeira, specifically in the 19th century. Others may have a different reading. On the other hand, the standardization of the language is very recent. Even today there is still debate on the orthographical agreement with Brazil which it seems is not yet been implemented. In my opinion the language of today and its spelling owe a lot to contemporary writers such as Eça de Queiroz or Pessoa. Please also remember that I believe that most of the original noble families (or who became noble) left the islands a long time ago. Many spent their time in the Court in Lisbon and never returned. Many 2nd sons left to the Azores very early or to Brazil. Finally, I believe all our families survived and worked hard. That is what I am proud of. José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Patricia Corbera Sent: January 23, 2007 4:20 PM To: luis_k_w@clix.pt; prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Jose, I'm confused by your statement - "Finally, there are rules but in Madeira we make our own rules. In fact given the current circumstances more so today than ever in our history! " Please help me understand what you meant by this statement, especially the part about the "current circumstances." Using your example of "Da Silva," and "just Silva," I thought the only use of Da was to indicate "of." All the documents that I have for my "da Silva Se' " ancestors from Madeira the Priest used the "da," is it correct to say/think that these ancestors were people of "means/nobles," in the eyes of the Priest and of the villagers where they resided? I actually think Priests followed their "own," way of writing, as evident with the various spelling variations that is seen in early documents. Pat Silva Corbera California USA luis_k_w@clix.pt wrote: Jose' I understand your point, and I believe you're absolutely right. So... are you saying that the priests who wrote the Baptism Records were the cause of the social discrimination still existing in Madeira? Just kidding! Just kidding!! :-)) Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal --------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Luis, I agree that it does not show nobility. However, it became in Madeira an attempt to show nobility. Some people insisted in having the "de" according to the rules that you have indicated. Now try to convince a priest in a little village to add a "de", and you are a poor man or a "vilão" and you will see the difference. Why do you think there are Da Silva and just Silva? Economy of words? Would it show class? Would it attempt to show your place in society? In an island where most were illiterate (before 1960) why did the priest follow your rule for some and not for others? Finally, there are rules but in Madeira we make our own rules. In fact given the current circumstances more so today than ever in our history! Nevertheless, when I have an opportunity I will contact Dr. Albert Vieira about this. Cheers José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: January 23, 2007 1:09 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Sorry Jose', A "de" before a toponimic(spl?) name doesn't show nobility at all. That's (probably) in French and Belgium, etc. where they pay a lot of atention and caution to the use of "de avec un petit d". "De" means FROM. And that's why all the ALBUQUERQUE, ALMEIDA, ATAIDE, BASTOS, SILVA, NOBREGA, etc. (which are names of towns and places) should use a DE (or DA) before the name. My family, from my mother's side, is «DE MELO E LIMA» (from Melo and from Lima) and «DE CASTRO E SOUSA». That's absolutely correct. And it doesn't mean they were all noble. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Margaret, We are surrounded by Nóbregas! Now the "de" added to the name got carried away in Madeira. I don't give it too much importance. It was added to show nobility and so on. I believe that most Madeirans come from hardworking families that worked the land. Wed all come from good families. I am proud of their achievements and their hard work. Our ancestors built Madeira from nothing. Even to work the land took creativity, courage and hard work. I believe that many families in Camacha came originally from Caniço and I encourage those researching families in Camacha not to forget about Caniço. For example you mention the Ornellas. By the late 15th century they already had extensive landholdings in Caniço. Many new colonists came to work in their farms (fazenda). Under the old "colonia" system they owned most of the land rights in Caniço until late in the 20th century. Have a nice day. José Fernnades -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Sent: January 17, 2007 6:02 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Jose: My mother in law was a deNobrega. Many use the name Nobriga however in Camacha I found that her family all were identified by the deNobrega. The original home was in Val de Paraiso and some of the later generation still live there. Some went to Hawaii about 1906-7 and later to the U.S. Many of the later generation have done very well in the U.S, Africa and Brazil. There is a branch in Brazil that is very famous in Radio, and T.V. Have been for many years and several are medical doctors. In the U.S. the grandchildren are also doing well in what ever endeaver they choose. Some have married into the Ornellas family and have Freitas and Gouveia cousins. The Africa connection went back to Madeira and is with the Portugese gorvernment. I say this because we are very happy with our connection to that part of the world. Our roots are good and strong. Thank you Madeira. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:24 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Didn't want to interrupt your conversation, but when you mention Caniço I am in! The Fernandes, in my case, have been in Caniço since the 16th century. We have married into all of the families, including De Freitas and Nóbrega. In fact my grandmother was a Nóbrega. This was the 3rd we married into the Nóbrega family. In Saudades da Terra, it is written that by the mid-17 century there barely 200 (mostly huts) in the whole parish. The families there were mostly interconnected. Now a note on Camacha that you may already know. Camacha was part of Caniço until the end of the Spanish regime. I believe around 1638 it became its own parish. I suspect many of the families were original settlers in Caniço, who gradually cleared more land up the mountain. So it was natural to have much intermarriage between the two parishes. I have that in my family. Another interesting note was that reading a British writer, she writes in the mid-18 century that in her opinion many of the people in Camacha who were blond and red haired may have descended from a Scottish battalion which was headquartered there during the British occupation of the island in and around 1807 and 1814. Anyway, if you doing any research on Caniço, please let me know. Have a nice day. José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Denise1270@aol.com Sent: January 13, 2007 1:57 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Archivo Regional da Madeira website Hi Margaret, I went to Camacha and we even brought back some of those wicker items. One of them is a beautiful picnic basket. It's a really nice town. My grandfathers sister was married to Luis de Nobrega but I believe he was from Canico not Camacha. I don't have any other info on his family. I know he had a brother that lived in Cambridge, MA at one time. My grandmothers family was from Sao Miguel, Acores, One of her uncles was married to Adelaide Cristina da Carmara d'Ornellas, she was from Sao Pedro, Funchal and her parents were Pedro Jose de Ornellas and Elena Augusta da Camara. She went to live in Sao Miguel. And I know she had a sister named Vicencia Julia da Camara d'Ornellas. The Ornellas are from a well off line. I understand there is a street or something named after them. My grandfather said we had family that went near Oakland, CA but we don't know who and they would be dead now. They were Freitas though. Denise In a message dated 1/13/2007 1:26:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, marpg2000@comcast.net writes: Denise: The fun begins. My mother in law was Theresa deNobrega from Camacha. Her family members still exist there and have a store, bar, and one cousin now owns the wicker factory and is the "mayor". My sister is married to an Ornellas and they also reside in Camacha. In 1906 - 8 - 9, some of those famillies went to Hawaii and later to the U.S. Their lives have been very interesting and we marvel at how they were able to find their way through to the U.S. Germano Ornellas was my brother in laws grandfather. They also are related to the Miranda family. The Goveia family lived here also and followed the same route through Hawaii. Some Freitas lived in San Leandro however many of those mentioned here have sadly passed away. Nice place Camacha. Happy people, musical and dancers. There is a bust of a A. Ornellas in the plaza there and he is a noble man who was from Camacha and at one time quite prominent. Best wishes Margaret ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message