papagaia2 wrote: > Hi JL, > What other surnames are you researching at link with the Escorcio surname? > Pat > Hi Pat - I will put together a list and post it here. Not sure if my Escorcios go back to the Drummond family or not, but I know that they had enough money to have servants as late as 1900 or so on Porto Santo. So who knows? Jeff

Hi Paty.... I lloked in the Nobiliario da Madeira for the Figueiro surname...but altough they have a lot of names there, Antonio Figueiro doesnt show :( Im sure the surname is Drumond....specially because the marriage record of Vital Escorcio Drumond was very clear. And the ARM didnt do my chart tree...they only provided me with the records, being those of marriage or birth and from there i biuld my family tree myself. Whom is this SrLuis de Sousas Melo?? How can i contact him??? Thats quite amazing that probably we are related, because definitely Drumond in Madeira is just one family for sure....now my task is link this Vital Escorcio Drumond (married in 1684) with his ancestor John Drumond. Leandro

Hi JL, What other surnames are you researching at link with the Escorcio surname? Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Lake" <j@jlake.net> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 7:46 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family > Patricia Corbera wrote: >> It's written that John Drummond aka Joao Escorcio came to Madeira along >> with many other foreigners involved in the commercialization of sugar. >> Contingents of Italians, Flemish, French and Castilians also settled on >> the island, and intermarried with the island aristocracy and bourgeoisie. >> These marriages with attractive dowry became the simplest way to enlarge >> one's lands and assert one's position in local society. > Hey, I am an Escorcio - on my Grandmother's side. Haven't traced it back > too far yet. They were from Porto Santo. What fun! > JL > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Leandro, Have you researched the Figueiro surname? In the Nobiliário da Ilha da Madeira - título FIGUEIRÓS(fol. 70) there's this reference " N.º 1 - Pedro de Figueiró, natual d'a Ilha / d'o Fayal." Maybe by checking out the surname of Figueiro on the island of Fayal (Faial) will help to supply info on your Drummond connection. Are you sure that it's the Drummond surname and not that of Dutra? When you noted that "even the ARM cannot trace my ancestors back from Capt. Antonio Figueiro," it's my understanding that the ARM does not do genealogy research, but simply provides copies of vital records, who told you that they couldn't trace your ancestor? Did Sr. Luis deSousa Mello, prepare your pedigree charts and if so what did he have to say about the Drummond connection. Sr. Mello prepared my charts, and when he linked my direct line to Isabel Anes Drummond, he made the following notation in the notes section of the pedigree chart ~ " Isabel Anes Drummond, daughter of Joao Escorcio (John Drummond) who came from Scotland to Madeira. A descendant of this family was granted the right to have the Drummond crest." Pat Silva Corbera California, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: <Gregobhte1@aol.com> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 10:17 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family > Hi Jose.... > > Have no idea. His paternal grandfather was Capitain Antonio Figueiro and > his > maternal grandfather was Capitain Sebastiao Moniz da Camara...his > grandmothers were Correia and Gouveia (being this Gouveia from Machico!). > and even the > ARM cannot trace my ancestors back from Capitain Antonio Figueiro...so > baiscally i havent a clue how this Drumond belongs to my family!!! :( > > Thank you > > Leandro > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Very interesting story really!!! Funny enough this Vital Escorcio Drumond (b.1686) from Sao Vicente (my 11 Great-grandfather) married in 1706 with Maria Teixeira de Andrade andtheir son is Francisco TELO de Figueiro (b. 1714) whom married Ana Rosa de Jesus in 1737 were the parents of Manuel TELO de Meneses (B.1747) that married Maria de Ponte Pereira (from the Pereira Brasao family). They were the parents of Manuel Telo de Meneses (b.1772) that married in 1796 with Ana Ursula Sao Jose (Ferreira de Abreu family from Calheta). They had Francisco Telo de Meneses (b.1796) married in 1820 Ana Maria Rosa de Jesus (Franca Vasconcelos family...also from Sao Vicente) parents of Manuel Telo Junior (b.1826) that married in 1849 Francisca Perpetua da Encarnacao (Castro teixeira family from Seixal...by now my family moved from Sao Vicente to Seixal). They were the parents of Manuel Teles de Castro that married in 1883 Maria Silvestre da Conceicao and they were the parents of my Great-grandfather Manuel Teles Junior born in 1885 that emigrated to Brazil at 5 months old with his parents. Leandro

John Drummond was the son of Sir John Drummond, the brother of the queen of Scotland and Elizabeth Sinclair, the daughter of Prince Henry Sinclair, Prince of the Orkney Islands and Earl of Caithness. Prince Henry allegedly sailed to Nova Scotia in 1398 with Nicolo and Antonio Zeno Venetian Navigators. Check the Clan Sinclair website to read the story. Henry's grandson William Sinclair, John's first cousin, was the builder of Rosslyn Chapel, featured in the Da Vinci Code. John's son, João Escorcio Drummond was a contemporary of Columbus and both were engaged in the sugar trade sailing back and forth between Madeira and Genoa. Nicolo Zeno, the grandson of Nicolo the navigator supposedly drew a map from his grandfather's account of his voyage with Prince Henry. Columbus may have known more about the Western Hemisphere than most people believe. BTW, has anybody heard that Columbus was Portuguese? His wife was Felipa Moniz, the illegitimate daughter of Bartolomeu Perestrello. Pope Alexander, VI, Wrote a papal bull on Columbus discovery and spelled his name Cristovão Colon. Alexander was the Borgia Pope and a Spaniard, so why write in Portuguese instead of instead of Italian or Spanish? Scot Fernandes, Jose wrote: > Leandro, > Do a Google research on Gabriel Drumond and it comes up. I have been trying the website for the Madeira parliament www.alrm.pt but I am getting nowhere. > Now that you mention it (and Margaret too) I have read about this family being from Scotland. I also note that Escorcio is a family name on its own now. > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Gregobhte1@aol.com > Sent: January 30, 2007 3:50 PM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family > > Actyually Drumond comes from Scotland...John Dummond came around 1450 from > Scotland, some saying that he was expeled by his family (nobody really knows > how and why he went to Madeira....fact is that everybody in Madeira with its > surname can trace back to him...but i still dont have the links between Vital > Escorcio Drumond, His grandfather Capitain Antonio Figueiro/Ana Gouveia and > this John Drumond. > > It would be interesting to get in touch with any present Drumond from Sao > Vicente (maybe they have the answer....)./ Anyone there that have any idea how i > can do that?? > > Thank you > > Leandro > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

My only "paes incognitos," occured fairly early in my research. My maternal great-grandfather Antonio da Camara, is listed as being "filho do paes incognitos," on his marriage record ( 8 Feb 1873 Calheta, Madeira to Antonia de Freitas). The second notation was on his daughter's birth record (my maternal grandmother Julia)... "neta paternal da paes incognitos." I keep hoping that one day a male relative of this line will show up, so that we can have his YDNA tested, sheding some light on his ancestral roots. Antonia de Freitas is my mtDNA ancestor... Haplogroup H1 with mutations in HVR1 16172C - 16519C = HVR2 00074G - 00263G and 00315,1C. Facts known about a male offspring of Antonio da Camara and Antonia Rose de Freitas: Antonio Camara de Freitas born 03 Nov.1873 Calheta, Madeira ~( married Maria Henriqueta da Silva born abt 1879 daughter of Francisco Januario da Silva and Maria Henriqueta da Silva). Children of Maria and Antonio: Manuel de Freitas born 28 Feb 1904 Maria de Freitas born 01 Feb 1905 Margarida de Freitas born 10 June 1907 All born in the Calheta, Madeira Pat Silva Corbera California USA Margaret <marpg2000@comcast.net> wrote: Luis: Thank you for the information and I will keep it in thought. I read that some of the children were left in the "Camara" which was the acquivilant of "city hall" and many were left on the "roda." The name Fernandes is a very old name and difficult to trace. Thanks for the input. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Moniz Family- CAMARA > Margaret, > I am sorry to correct you... again. :-) > > Every name may have different origins. But the "CAMARA" family name has a > long and well known story. Its (oldest) origin goes back 550 years.(*) > > JOAO GONÇALVES ZARCO, knight of the Dom Henrique house, was one of the > founders of the Madeira isl. > > The place where they landed was named "Camara de Lobos" (house of wolfs) - > probably because of the sea-wolfs (seals). > > King Afonso V awarded him the family name "Camara de Lobos" and a new coat > of arms (with wolfs, of course). The chart of this royal grant is from July > 4, 1460. > > JOAO GONC,ALVES DA CAMARA DE LOBOS married to Constanc,a Rodrigues (probably a daughter of my ancestor Rodrigo Anes de Sa'). They had a lot of children using that family name, which was shortened to CAMARA. > > On the other hand, babies who were left in the RODA ("wheel"= device > prepared to receive unwanted babies in the monasteries, churches, etc.) had > no family name, remember? :-) > When they became Adults, they often used devotional (religious) names like > "dos Santos", or the family name of the family that adopted them. > > By the way. I have an ancestor (married in 1725, died in 1777) who was left > in the wheel ("exposto na Roda dos ingeitados da villa da Vianna do Lima") > whose family name(s) was(were): "FERNANDES PITTA". > I have no idea where this family name came from. He was raised in the house > of Francisca DOMINGUES widow of Mathias FERNANDES. > Hmmm.... "Fernandes" again! > My guess is he was raised at his grandparents (his mother's parents) home, > but i'll probably never know for sure. > > Luis K W > Lisboa-Portugal > (*) source: Armorial Lusitano. > Please NOTE that there probably are other Camara families whose name had > other origins: Slaves who worked for the Camara family; people that used > the name has a nickname (a Jose' that worked in the "Camara Municipal" may have turned into "Jose' da Camara", etc.); etc. > > ---------- > > > ---------- > > From: Margaret > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Moniz Family > > Date: Quinta-feira, 25 de Janeiro de 2007 21:52 > > > > Hello Again: > > I reread your note and saw the "Camara." > > Children who were orphens etc., left at the Camara were given that name. > > Could be that is why you cannot locate the parent. Also look at the > > marriage of Vicente and see if the parents are mentioned or the > > grandparents. I am told that if you start with marriage records it tells > a > > lot about the family and also the signetures are usually family menbers. > > > > I have a friend in South Africa who was born in Lisboa and his name was > > Camara. He was able to locate his past by going to the archivo in Lisboa > > and actually was able to locate a cousin. They had both been in the > Camara. > > He didnot know about the children usisng the Camara name if they were > left > > there as orphans. If you go to the archives in Funchal you may find what > > you are looking for. Give it a try. > > > > Best wishes > > Margaret > > ------------- > > > > ------------- > > Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de ? 29,90/mês > A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! > > Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It's written that John Drummond aka Joao Escorcio came to Madeira along with many other foreigners involved in the commercialization of sugar. Contingents of Italians, Flemish, French and Castilians also settled on the island, and intermarried with the island aristocracy and bourgeoisie. These marriages with attractive dowry became the simplest way to enlarge one's lands and assert one's position in local society. Source: "The Archipelago of Madeira in the XV- Century," which can be found online at this website address - www.ceha-madeira.net/livros/madeira1.htm. My Drummond line starts with John Drummond (aka : Joao Escorcio) son of John IV Drummond and Elizabeth Sinclair (daughter of Earl Henry St. Clair (Sinclair) and Jane Haliburton. John was married to Branca Afonso da Cunha, they had some 8 children, of which Isabel Anes Drummond (b. abt 1445 Santa Cruz, Funchal, Madeira)is my direct line ancestor, she married Joao de Leiria. Of their children some used the surname of Leiria, Drummond and Escocio. My direct line continues with their daughter Ines Pires de Leiria, married to Joan Franca... this direct line continues with the marriage/s into the Abreu family --> the Giralte family -->the Cesar family --> the Sequeira family --> the Barreto family --> the Abreu Andrade family --> the Velosa de Lira family -->the Cesar de Lira family -->the Homem D'El -Rei family --> Menezes -->Nunes-->Ferreira--> Farinha Jardim, Rodrigues and finally the da Silva Se' family. As one can see starting out with John Drummond (from Scotland) one encounters association with many of the distinguished families that helped to settle the island of Madeira. Per Sr. Luis de Sousa Melo, one linking with the John Drummond/Joao Escorcio family has been granted the "right," to display the Drummond family crest. Pat Silva Corbera California USA Gregobhte1@aol.com wrote: Actyually Drumond comes from Scotland...John Dummond came around 1450 from Scotland, some saying that he was expeled by his family (nobody really knows how and why he went to Madeira....fact is that everybody in Madeira with its surname can trace back to him...but i still dont have the links between Vital Escorcio Drumond, His grandfather Capitain Antonio Figueiro/Ana Gouveia and this John Drumond. It would be interesting to get in touch with any present Drumond from Sao Vicente (maybe they have the answer....)./ Anyone there that have any idea how i can do that?? Thank you Leandro ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Margaret..... Very interesting story really!!! Funny enough this Vital Escorcio Drumond (b.1686) from Sao Vicente (my 11 Great-grandfather) married in 1706 with Maria Teixeira de Andrade andtheir son is Francisco TELO de Figueiro (b. 1714) whom married Ana Rosa de Jesus in 1737 were the parents of Manuel TELO de Meneses (B.1747) that married Maria de Ponte Pereira (from the Pereira Brasao family). They were the parents of Manuel Telo de Meneses (b.1772) that married in 1796 with Ana Ursula Sao Jose (Ferreira de Abreu family from Calheta). They had Francisco Telo de Meneses (b.1796) married in 1820 Ana Maria Rosa de Jesus (Franca Vasconcelos family...also from Sao Vicente) parents of Manuel Telo Junior (b.1826) that married in 1849 Francisca Perpetua da Encarnacao (Castro teixeira family from Seixal...by now my family moved from Sao Vicente to Seixal). They were the parents of Manuel Teles de Castro that married in 1883 Maria Silvestre da Conceicao and they were the parents of my Great-grandfather Manuel Teles Junior born in 1885 that emigrated to Brazil at 5 months old with his parents. Leandro

Leandro, Do a Google research on Gabriel Drumond and it comes up. I have been trying the website for the Madeira parliament www.alrm.pt but I am getting nowhere. Now that you mention it (and Margaret too) I have read about this family being from Scotland. I also note that Escorcio is a family name on its own now. José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Gregobhte1@aol.com Sent: January 30, 2007 3:50 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family Actyually Drumond comes from Scotland...John Dummond came around 1450 from Scotland, some saying that he was expeled by his family (nobody really knows how and why he went to Madeira....fact is that everybody in Madeira with its surname can trace back to him...but i still dont have the links between Vital Escorcio Drumond, His grandfather Capitain Antonio Figueiro/Ana Gouveia and this John Drumond. It would be interesting to get in touch with any present Drumond from Sao Vicente (maybe they have the answer....)./ Anyone there that have any idea how i can do that?? Thank you Leandro ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Margaret..... Very interesting story really!!! Funny enough this Vital Escorcio Drumond (b.1686) from Sao Vicente (my 11 Great-grandfather) married in 1706 with Maria Teixeira de Andrade andtheir son is Francisco TELO de Figueiro (b. 1714) whom married Ana Rosa de Jesus in 1737 were the parents of Manuel TELO de Meneses (B.1747) that married Maria de Ponte Pereira (from the Pereira Brasao family). They were the parents of Manuel Telo de Meneses (b.1772) that married in 1796 with Ana Ursula Sao Jose (Ferreira de Abreu family from Calheta). They had Francisco Telo de Meneses (b.1796) married in 1820 Ana Maria Rosa de Jesus (Franca Vasconcelos family...also from Sao Vicente) parents of Manuel Telo Junior (b.1826) that married in 1849 Francisca Perpetua da Encarnacao (Castro teixeira family from Seixal...by now my family moved from Sao Vicente to Seixal). They were the parents of Manuel Teles de Castro that married in 1883 Maria Silvestre da Conceicao and they were the parents of my Great-grandfather Manuel Teles Junior born in 1885 that emigrated to Brazil at 5 months old with his parents. Leandro

Actyually Drumond comes from Scotland...John Dummond came around 1450 from Scotland, some saying that he was expeled by his family (nobody really knows how and why he went to Madeira....fact is that everybody in Madeira with its surname can trace back to him...but i still dont have the links between Vital Escorcio Drumond, His grandfather Capitain Antonio Figueiro/Ana Gouveia and this John Drumond. It would be interesting to get in touch with any present Drumond from Sao Vicente (maybe they have the answer....)./ Anyone there that have any idea how i can do that?? Thank you Leandro

Interesting. From history, we can tell that his grandparents were born and lived during the Spanish regime. If they were captains which crown did they follow? Did that have anything to do with the name change after 1640? It would be nice to see how the current Drumonds in Madeira trace their ancestors. Drumond is not a Portuguese name. It "feels" Flemish or French to me or around there. It is interesting to note that during that time the Spanish controlled the Low Countries. Anybody out there have an opinion on this? José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Gregobhte1@aol.com Sent: January 30, 2007 1:18 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family Hi Jose.... Have no idea. His paternal grandfather was Capitain Antonio Figueiro and his maternal grandfather was Capitain Sebastiao Moniz da Camara...his grandmothers were Correia and Gouveia (being this Gouveia from Machico!). and even the ARM cannot trace my ancestors back from Capitain Antonio Figueiro...so baiscally i havent a clue how this Drumond belongs to my family!!! :( Thank you Leandro ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Jose.... Have no idea. His paternal grandfather was Capitain Antonio Figueiro and his maternal grandfather was Capitain Sebastiao Moniz da Camara...his grandmothers were Correia and Gouveia (being this Gouveia from Machico!). and even the ARM cannot trace my ancestors back from Capitain Antonio Figueiro...so baiscally i havent a clue how this Drumond belongs to my family!!! :( Thank you Leandro

Luis: Thank you for the information and I will keep it in thought. I read that some of the children were left in the "Camara" which was the acquivilant of "city hall" and many were left on the "roda." The name Fernandes is a very old name and difficult to trace. Thanks for the input. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: <luis_k_w@clix.pt> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Moniz Family- CAMARA > Margaret, > I am sorry to correct you... again. :-) > > Every name may have different origins. But the "CAMARA" family name has a > long and well known story. Its (oldest) origin goes back 550 years.(*) > > JOAO GONÇALVES ZARCO, knight of the Dom Henrique house, was one of the > founders of the Madeira isl. > > The place where they landed was named "Camara de Lobos" (house of wolfs) - > probably because of the sea-wolfs (seals). > > King Afonso V awarded him the family name "Camara de Lobos" and a new coat > of arms (with wolfs, of course). The chart of this royal grant is from July > 4, 1460. > > JOAO GONC,ALVES DA CAMARA DE LOBOS married to Constanc,a Rodrigues (probably a daughter of my ancestor Rodrigo Anes de Sa'). They had a lot of children using that family name, which was shortened to CAMARA. > > On the other hand, babies who were left in the RODA ("wheel"= device > prepared to receive unwanted babies in the monasteries, churches, etc.) had > no family name, remember? :-) > When they became Adults, they often used devotional (religious) names like > "dos Santos", or the family name of the family that adopted them. > > By the way. I have an ancestor (married in 1725, died in 1777) who was left > in the wheel ("exposto na Roda dos ingeitados da villa da Vianna do Lima") > whose family name(s) was(were): "FERNANDES PITTA". > I have no idea where this family name came from. He was raised in the house > of Francisca DOMINGUES widow of Mathias FERNANDES. > Hmmm.... "Fernandes" again! > My guess is he was raised at his grandparents (his mother's parents) home, > but i'll probably never know for sure. > > Luis K W > Lisboa-Portugal > (*) source: Armorial Lusitano. > Please NOTE that there probably are other Camara families whose name had > other origins: Slaves who worked for the Camara family; people that used > the name has a nickname (a Jose' that worked in the "Camara Municipal" may have turned into "Jose' da Camara", etc.); etc. > > ---------- > > > ---------- > > From: Margaret <marpg2000@comcast.net> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Moniz Family > > Date: Quinta-feira, 25 de Janeiro de 2007 21:52 > > > > Hello Again: > > I reread your note and saw the "Camara." > > Children who were orphens etc., left at the Camara were given that name. > > Could be that is why you cannot locate the parent. Also look at the > > marriage of Vicente and see if the parents are mentioned or the > > grandparents. I am told that if you start with marriage records it tells > a > > lot about the family and also the signetures are usually family menbers. > > > > I have a friend in South Africa who was born in Lisboa and his name was > > Camara. He was able to locate his past by going to the archivo in Lisboa > > and actually was able to locate a cousin. They had both been in the > Camara. > > He didnot know about the children usisng the Camara name if they were > left > > there as orphans. If you go to the archives in Funchal you may find what > > you are looking for. Give it a try. > > > > Best wishes > > Margaret > > ------------- > > > > ------------- > > Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de ? 29,90/mês > A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! > > Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Jose' Escorcio is how one say Scotch in Portuguese. We knew a lady from the area of Machico who was Escorcio and married into the Tello ( Telles) family. They all being originaly from Porto Santo. She and her husband migrated to Hawaii in 1906 and then to the U.S. later. Also according to the tome Armorial Lusitano, Drummond was originally of the Escocia faminly and one of the greatest and distinct of that Reino. They married twice : the first with Catarina Vaz de Lordelo, and the second with Branca Afonso. Interesting is that after 1519 and later in the year of 1604 and 1634 some of their descendants from Jao Escorcio established correspondents with members of the Drummond familly of Stobhall, exchanging letters and some were written in Latin. They are publish in a book "THE GENEALOGY OF THE MOST NOBLE AND ANCIENT FAMILY OF DRUMMOND given a "stamp of approval" in Edinburgo in 1831. The Arquivo Historico da Madeira published a volume III. In those letters the parents Portuguese, the noble strangers, confrim that the a son of Lord Drummond, who was a brother of Rainha Arabela da Escocia, went to France searching for honor and fame. The family lost contact with him. Here in the U.S. the Escorcio lady that I mentioned above had descendants who married into the Drummond family. They still reside somewhere here in California. Very interesting line of people. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family Interesting. From history, we can tell that his grandparents were born and lived during the Spanish regime. If they were captains which crown did they follow? Did that have anything to do with the name change after 1640? It would be nice to see how the current Drumonds in Madeira trace their ancestors. Drumond is not a Portuguese name. It "feels" Flemish or French to me or around there. It is interesting to note that during that time the Spanish controlled the Low Countries. Anybody out there have an opinion on this? José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Gregobhte1@aol.com Sent: January 30, 2007 1:18 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family Hi Jose.... Have no idea. His paternal grandfather was Capitain Antonio Figueiro and his maternal grandfather was Capitain Sebastiao Moniz da Camara...his grandmothers were Correia and Gouveia (being this Gouveia from Machico!). and even the ARM cannot trace my ancestors back from Capitain Antonio Figueiro...so baiscally i havent a clue how this Drumond belongs to my family!!! :( Thank you Leandro ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Leandro, Don't have much to add other than say that the Drumond family still exists in São Vicente. A current Regional Deputy and leader of FAMA (an autonomous organization) is a Drumond. It is interesting to me that Vital took the Drumond name. Do you know why? José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Cece Camara Sent: January 29, 2007 7:55 PM To: Rootsweb List - Madeira (E-mail) Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] FW: Drumond family Greg I assume from the "guys" here that you meant to post to the list..so here it goes! Cece -----Original Message----- From: Gregobhte1@aol.com [mailto:Gregobhte1@aol.com] Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 4:55 PM To: cece@soccer4all.com Subject: Drumond family Hey Guys...anyone has any information about the Drumond family?? My 11th greatgranfather was Vital Escorcio Drumond, son of Vasco Moniz de Meneses and D. Crispina de Meneses. Vital was born in 1686 in Sao Vicente and got married in 1706 with Maria Teixeira de Andrade (born in S Vicente in 1690 daugther of Antonio Goncalves and Antonia Teixeira de Andrade, that Antonia Belongs to the Teixeira Brasao Family) Thank you so Much Leandro ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Cece, As I wrote before: "Every name may have different origins..." :-) For those sons of "pai incognito", or "pais incognitos", I believe that very often those "unknown parents" were well known... That's why those unwanted children often use very common local family names (and not the usual religious names). ;-) Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- My turn to beg to differ...sort of... Of course, I don't think anyone is denying that Camara is not a legitimate last name...as in the descendants of Zarco. BUT...that does not also mean that the orphaned children were not ALSO given that name. I probably have at LEAST 100 individuals in my research file that are named Camara (whether they TOOK it or were GIVEN it is up for grabs isn't it???)... all of which are "pais incognito". Somehow these orphan children came to be known by the name Camara...even though they are not (or who knows-maybe they are...LOL) descended from the great Zarco. Cece Camara (desecended from BOTH Zarco and more recently one of those "pais incognito" Camara's) -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 12:35 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Moniz Family- CAMARA Margaret, I am sorry to correct you... again. :-) Every name may have different origins. But the "CAMARA" family name has a long and well known story. Its (oldest) origin goes back 550 years.(*) JOAO GONGALVES ZARCO, knight of the Dom Henrique house, was one of the founders of the Madeira isl. The place where they landed was named "Camara de Lobos" (house of wolfs) - probably because of the sea-wolfs (seals). King Afonso V awarded him the family name "Camara de Lobos" and a new coat of arms (with wolfs, of course). The chart of this royal grant is from July 4, 1460. JOAO GONC,ALVES DA CAMARA DE LOBOS married to Constanc,a Rodrigues (probably a daughter of my ancestor Rodrigo Anes de Sa'). They had a lot of children using that family name, which was shortened to CAMARA. On the other hand, babies who were left in the RODA ("wheel"= device prepared to receive unwanted babies in the monasteries, churches, etc.) had no family name, remember? :-) When they became Adults, they often used devotional (religious) names like "dos Santos", or the family name of the family that adopted them. By the way. I have an ancestor (married in 1725, died in 1777) who was left in the wheel ("exposto na Roda dos ingeitados da villa da Vianna do Lima") whose family name(s) was(were): "FERNANDES PITTA". I have no idea where this family name came from. He was raised in the house of Francisca DOMINGUES widow of Mathias FERNANDES. Hmmm.... "Fernandes" again! My guess is he was raised at his grandparents (his mother's parents) home, but i'll probably never know for sure. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal (*) source: Armorial Lusitano. Please NOTE that there probably are other Camara families whose name had other origins: Slaves who worked for the Camara family; people that used the name has a nickname (a Jose' that worked in the "Camara Municipal" may have turned into "Jose' da Camara", etc.); etc. ---------- ---------- From: Margaret marpg2000@comcast.net Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Moniz Family Date: Quinta-feira, 25 de Janeiro de 2007 21:52 Hello Again: I reread your note and saw the "Camara." Children who were orphens etc., left at the Camara were given that name. Could be that is why you cannot locate the parent. Also look at the marriage of Vicente and see if the parents are mentioned or the grandparents. I am told that if you start with marriage records it tells a lot about the family and also the signetures are usually family menbers. I have a friend in South Africa who was born in Lisboa and his name was Camara. He was able to locate his past by going to the archivo in Lisboa and actually was able to locate a cousin. They had both been in the Camara. He didnot know about the children usisng the Camara name if they were left there as orphans. If you go to the archives in Funchal you may find what you are looking for. Give it a try. Best wishes Margaret ------------- ------------- Clix ADSL ati 24 Mb: a partir de ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/

Greg I assume from the "guys" here that you meant to post to the list..so here it goes! Cece -----Original Message----- From: Gregobhte1@aol.com [mailto:Gregobhte1@aol.com] Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 4:55 PM To: cece@soccer4all.com Subject: Drumond family Hey Guys...anyone has any information about the Drumond family?? My 11th greatgranfather was Vital Escorcio Drumond, son of Vasco Moniz de Meneses and D. Crispina de Meneses. Vital was born in 1686 in Sao Vicente and got married in 1706 with Maria Teixeira de Andrade (born in S Vicente in 1690 daugther of Antonio Goncalves and Antonia Teixeira de Andrade, that Antonia Belongs to the Teixeira Brasao Family) Thank you so Much Leandro

Margaret, I am sorry to correct you... again. :-) Every name may have different origins. But the "CAMARA" family name has a long and well known story. Its (oldest) origin goes back 550 years.(*) JOAO GONÇALVES ZARCO, knight of the Dom Henrique house, was one of the founders of the Madeira isl. The place where they landed was named "Camara de Lobos" (house of wolfs) - probably because of the sea-wolfs (seals). King Afonso V awarded him the family name "Camara de Lobos" and a new coat of arms (with wolfs, of course). The chart of this royal grant is from July 4, 1460. JOAO GONC,ALVES DA CAMARA DE LOBOS married to Constanc,a Rodrigues (probably a daughter of my ancestor Rodrigo Anes de Sa'). They had a lot of children using that family name, which was shortened to CAMARA. On the other hand, babies who were left in the RODA ("wheel"= device prepared to receive unwanted babies in the monasteries, churches, etc.) had no family name, remember? :-) When they became Adults, they often used devotional (religious) names like "dos Santos", or the family name of the family that adopted them. By the way. I have an ancestor (married in 1725, died in 1777) who was left in the wheel ("exposto na Roda dos ingeitados da villa da Vianna do Lima") whose family name(s) was(were): "FERNANDES PITTA". I have no idea where this family name came from. He was raised in the house of Francisca DOMINGUES widow of Mathias FERNANDES. Hmmm.... "Fernandes" again! My guess is he was raised at his grandparents (his mother's parents) home, but i'll probably never know for sure. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal (*) source: Armorial Lusitano. Please NOTE that there probably are other Camara families whose name had other origins: Slaves who worked for the Camara family; people that used the name has a nickname (a Jose' that worked in the "Camara Municipal" may have turned into "Jose' da Camara", etc.); etc. ---------- ---------- > From: Margaret <marpg2000@comcast.net> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Moniz Family > Date: Quinta-feira, 25 de Janeiro de 2007 21:52 > > Hello Again: > I reread your note and saw the "Camara." > Children who were orphens etc., left at the Camara were given that name. > Could be that is why you cannot locate the parent. Also look at the > marriage of Vicente and see if the parents are mentioned or the > grandparents. I am told that if you start with marriage records it tells a > lot about the family and also the signetures are usually family menbers. > > I have a friend in South Africa who was born in Lisboa and his name was > Camara. He was able to locate his past by going to the archivo in Lisboa > and actually was able to locate a cousin. They had both been in the Camara. > He didnot know about the children usisng the Camara name if they were left > there as orphans. If you go to the archives in Funchal you may find what > you are looking for. Give it a try. > > Best wishes > Margaret ------------- ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/