Dear Jose', Nice (really!) "talking" to you! I do not think I own the truth and I love sharing opinions with others. And, to say the truth, I know very little about Madeira. Thanks for your input. Luis PS: The difference between a Portuguese and a Castillian is just as large as between a Portuguese-Canadian and a Mexican. ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Dear Luis. It is common for Madeirans to have a different perspective from those in the rectangle. We can see that just yesterday. Anyway, I too watched Saraiva's program. I happen to like him and his way of doing history. I am told that the Portuguese intelligentsia does not. Let me make it quite clear. Madeira was not a poor island! In the 15th and 16th centuries we were very rich. Rich enough to finance the tragic Moroccan policy of the crown (keeping indefensible forts in the coast) and the expeditions down the African coast. Sugar brought great fortunes to Madeira. The point we need to make is that we were made impoverished by centralist, imperial mercantile policies which eventually lead as an example to Brazilian independence. It is true that we had very bad years, decades! These were made much worse because there was never any investment in any infrastructure for centuries. In good time the money left, in bad times we starved or emigrated! If we stole, we stole our money! Dr. Alberto Vieira is a very capable historian and very precise in his research. Something that leaves a lot to be desired in Saraiva. Vieira does not give opinions. He has the facts. On the Jews. King Manuel didn't really expel the Jews. They stayed. The flat earth society officially believes what they believe. It doesn't make them right. Long after Manuel died they were extricating money from Jews in Madeira. This went up to 1640. The Jewish people have survived worst oppressions but they never stopped being Jews. In Belmonte they never did! In fact, in Portugal there is a growing movement of Ben-anussim returning to the fold. They did not disappear. They are still us. Portuguese can be whatever they want to be. That is not my business. And by the way, it is not anybody's business who is a Jew either. (Well, unless you are the Chief Rabbi in Jerusalem). Personally, I still don't know the difference between a Portuguese and a Gallician or a Castillian. True this is a low blow. I am not American, I am Canadian. I am not sure we are fond of anybody, but in this new world we cherish freedom and the struggle to be free. We are countries of great ideas and great dreams. We are open societies with all of its imperfections. Much like Portugal in its heyday. I think Madeirans of the Diaspora need to know that much research needs to be done in this area of how we became a people and our common history while in these islands for the last 500 years. It is always a pleasure to exchange ideas with you Luis. Hopefully we don't drive people to boredom too much. I know that if you watch Saraiva you can't be bored! José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis K W Sent: February 10, 2007 8:26 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear All «Habilitando», someone who qualifies for something (to be a priest, a lawyer, a noble...). Dear Pat. Of course the subject is touchy. We are used to say that our ancestors are PORTUGUESE. And the truth is: even those Jews from which we all descend, were PORTUGUESE. Besides, the portuguese DON'T FEEL JEWS. They feel Portuguese. Do you feel German? Or Moor? Or Italian? It is most likely that every portuguese descendant has German (visigoth, etc.), Moor, or Roman ancestors. What about all the thousands of slaves that came to Portugal in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries (and I mean, not only the black African slaves, but also those who came from Asia)? Do you have an ancestor son of an unknown MOTHER? My guess is that she probably was a (black, asian, etc.) slave... Why then so much talk about the Jews? Is it to forget all the others? :-)) For instance: I have ONE NEW-CHRISTIAN among my 16.384 13xgrandparents. Her name is (was) Aldonça Gramaxo, born in Portimao in 1554. Her grandfather was a new-christian who married an old-christian Gramaxo woman (Ines G., born ca 1505). Some people (mostly from the US) would find this enough to say they ARE Jews. :-) But all we know is that her grandfather was a new-christian!! And what about all the other 16.383 portuguese 13xgrandparents?!? I also have an ancestor who is said to be a new-christian, living in the 12th century. But this one could be a Moor... :-) (Rui Capom, or Rui Fernandes Capom), Pizarro says "Rui Capão( or Capom)", almoxarife of D.Urraca; LL (LL42X7) by Conde D. Pedro, says that Rui Capon was a new-christian, having changed his name when he was Baptized. We all know that most portuguese descend from people of many different "races". That's what makes us portuguese. So, my question is: why are americans so fond of Jews?!? Why not of the Moors, who had a great civilization, as the Jews never had?? By the way: did you know that the Califs of southern iberia (Al-Andalus) were under the rule of the Lords of... Bagdad (from circa 750, until circa 929)?!? And now us, dear Jose Fernandes. If the Jews were 25% (!!) of the total population circa 1500's, shouldn't it be much easier to find new-christians among everyone's ancestors?!? No. They never were more than 10-12%. And they were imediately expelled from Portugal when they reached that number (after many spanish Jews arrived in Portugal, expelled from Spain). After the Law of Expulsion, by king D Manuel, Judaism was forbidden (if a Jew was caught he was condemned to death). So, everything you wrote can't be exactly right because, *officially*, there were no Jews in Portugal. :-) There were no taxes or money to extricate "from Jews" because Jews were expelled OR BECAME (new-)CHRISTIANS. On the other hand, there were lots of New-Christians (ex-Jews and ex-Moors) who were protected by several laws by the same King D Manuel. It was (obviously) not against the law to be a new-christian. BUT, there were many n-c who faked to be christians (or accused of faking it). And this was what the Inquisition was fond of: *rich* traders accused of keep practising Judaism... Of course we have Jewish cemiteries all over the country (we also have British cemeteries, etc)... But they are not that old! The funny thing about Madeirans (and Brazilians) is that they keep saying that all the money from taxes went to mainland Portugal. :-)) Historian Jose' Hermano Saraiva said, some months ago, about Brazil (but this is also true for Madeira): 1 most people didn't pay (all) the taxes they should; 2 most of the collected taxes were not declared (hidden) and remained in the pockets of local officials; 3 the taxes were 1/10 or 1/5 of what was declared as profit or revenue. So, most of the money largely remained where it was earned/produced. 4 the taxes that finally arrived in mainland (after all the bribery and robbery) were a little price to pay for the PEOPLE who left Portugal to develop that country (meaning Brazil - and Madeira, i must add). Besides, if Madeira was so poor as it is said, those taxes could not be such a large amount of money. ;-) Luís K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- From: papagaia2 Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the ' itando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ---------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/

Margaret, One should always forgive but forget...is forever. We don't want our children to forget. We should have the dignity and the courage to remember because without that we are nothing. It has been said that if we forget history we are going to repeat it. Our memories and our collective memories are the fabric of a family, of a people. That is why they put some much effort and emphasis in making us forget. Where is that village? José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Sent: February 12, 2007 2:36 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Jose and all: A visit to Villa da Vida on the continent would be very refreshing to everyone. Go to mass at the church, in the center, and after mass go through the stalls of merchandise sold by the villagers. The Villa is something to remember because of its history. The Jews were forced to convert and attend the mass occuping several rows of pews. They were not hostile and today they live peacefully with the Christians. They had a beautiful court with a community fountain in the center and the homes today are still very well kept. You can see the traits of their ancestors from the facial features and as merchants they still carry on their trade. There is a home there where on Friday nights the Jews would secretly pray and on Sunday it was mass. The villagers are of mixed races and some beautiful blue eyes. I will never forget my visit and it has been over 30 years. Let us see peaceful discussions on the subject because there is a lesson to be learned from those villagers. Forgive, forget, and blessings to all Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret" <marpg2000@comcast.net> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Jose: Read your item with great interest. My question is asked humbly. If the people were so poverty stricken, how did the Jews gain wealth? Did they gain from the mercantile policies? What influence did the Mason have in the independence of Brazil and the church? Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> To: <luis_k_w@clix.pt>; <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis. It is common for Madeirans to have a different perspective from those in the rectangle. We can see that just yesterday. Anyway, I too watched Saraiva's program. I happen to like him and his way of doing history. I am told that the Portuguese intelligentsia does not. Let me make it quite clear. Madeira was not a poor island! In the 15th and 16th centuries we were very rich. Rich enough to finance the tragic Moroccan policy of the crown (keeping indefensible forts in the coast) and the expeditions down the African coast. Sugar brought great fortunes to Madeira. The point we need to make is that we were made impoverished by centralist, imperial mercantile policies which eventually lead as an example to Brazilian independence. It is true that we had very bad years, decades! These were made much worse because there was never any investment in any infrastructure for centuries. In good time the money left, in bad times we starved or emigrated! If we stole, we stole our money! Dr. Alberto Vieira is a very capable historian and very precise in his research. Something that leaves a lot to be desired in Saraiva. Vieira does not give opinions. He has the facts. On the Jews. King Manuel didn't really expel the Jews. They stayed. The flat earth society officially believes what they believe. It doesn't make them right. Long after Manuel died they were extricating money from Jews in Madeira. This went up to 1640. The Jewish people have survived worst oppressions but they never stopped being Jews. In Belmonte they never did! In fact, in Portugal there is a growing movement of Ben-anussim returning to the fold. They did not disappear. They are still us. Portuguese can be whatever they want to be. That is not my business. And by the way, it is not anybody's business who is a Jew either. (Well, unless you are the Chief Rabbi in Jerusalem). Personally, I still don't know the difference between a Portuguese and a Gallician or a Castillian. True this is a low blow. I am not American, I am Canadian. I am not sure we are fond of anybody, but in this new world we cherish freedom and the struggle to be free. We are countries of great ideas and great dreams. We are open societies with all of its imperfections. Much like Portugal in its heyday. I think Madeirans of the Diaspora need to know that much research needs to be done in this area of how we became a people and our common history while in these islands for the last 500 years. It is always a pleasure to exchange ideas with you Luis. Hopefully we don't drive people to boredom too much. I know that if you watch Saraiva you can't be bored! José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis K W Sent: February 10, 2007 8:26 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear All «Habilitando», someone who qualifies for something (to be a priest, a lawyer, a noble...). Dear Pat. Of course the subject is touchy. We are used to say that our ancestors are PORTUGUESE. And the truth is: even those Jews from which we all descend, were PORTUGUESE. Besides, the portuguese DON'T FEEL JEWS. They feel Portuguese. Do you feel German? Or Moor? Or Italian? It is most likely that every portuguese descendant has German (visigoth, etc.), Moor, or Roman ancestors. What about all the thousands of slaves that came to Portugal in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries (and I mean, not only the black African slaves, but also those who came from Asia)? Do you have an ancestor son of an unknown MOTHER? My guess is that she probably was a (black, asian, etc.) slave... Why then so much talk about the Jews? Is it to forget all the others? :-)) For instance: I have ONE NEW-CHRISTIAN among my 16.384 13xgrandparents. Her name is (was) Aldonça Gramaxo, born in Portimao in 1554. Her grandfather was a new-christian who married an old-christian Gramaxo woman (Ines G., born ca 1505). Some people (mostly from the US) would find this enough to say they ARE Jews. :-) But all we know is that her grandfather was a new-christian!! And what about all the other 16.383 portuguese 13xgrandparents?!? I also have an ancestor who is said to be a new-christian, living in the 12th century. But this one could be a Moor... :-) (Rui Capom, or Rui Fernandes Capom), Pizarro says "Rui Capão( or Capom)", almoxarife of D.Urraca; LL (LL42X7) by Conde D. Pedro, says that Rui Capon was a new-christian, having changed his name when he was Baptized. We all know that most portuguese descend from people of many different "races". That's what makes us portuguese. So, my question is: why are americans so fond of Jews?!? Why not of the Moors, who had a great civilization, as the Jews never had?? By the way: did you know that the Califs of southern iberia (Al-Andalus) were under the rule of the Lords of... Bagdad (from circa 750, until circa 929)?!? And now us, dear Jose Fernandes. If the Jews were 25% (!!) of the total population circa 1500's, shouldn't it be much easier to find new-christians among everyone's ancestors?!? No. They never were more than 10-12%. And they were imediately expelled from Portugal when they reached that number (after many spanish Jews arrived in Portugal, expelled from Spain). After the Law of Expulsion, by king D Manuel, Judaism was forbidden (if a Jew was caught he was condemned to death). So, everything you wrote can't be exactly right because, *officially*, there were no Jews in Portugal. :-) There were no taxes or money to extricate "from Jews" because Jews were expelled OR BECAME (new-)CHRISTIANS. On the other hand, there were lots of New-Christians (ex-Jews and ex-Moors) who were protected by several laws by the same King D Manuel. It was (obviously) not against the law to be a new-christian. BUT, there were many n-c who faked to be christians (or accused of faking it). And this was what the Inquisition was fond of: *rich* traders accused of keep practising Judaism... Of course we have Jewish cemiteries all over the country (we also have British cemeteries, etc)... But they are not that old! The funny thing about Madeirans (and Brazilians) is that they keep saying that all the money from taxes went to mainland Portugal. :-)) Historian Jose' Hermano Saraiva said, some months ago, about Brazil (but this is also true for Madeira): 1 most people didn't pay (all) the taxes they should; 2 most of the collected taxes were not declared (hidden) and remained in the pockets of local officials; 3 the taxes were 1/10 or 1/5 of what was declared as profit or revenue. So, most of the money largely remained where it was earned/produced. 4 the taxes that finally arrived in mainland (after all the bribery and robbery) were a little price to pay for the PEOPLE who left Portugal to develop that country (meaning Brazil - and Madeira, i must add). Besides, if Madeira was so poor as it is said, those taxes could not be such a large amount of money. ;-) Luís K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- From: papagaia2 Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the ' itando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ---------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I took the liberty of copying this from the Saudades list. History is always told from the hunter's perspective, never from the lion. I am not sure there is a true history. After all, we see the same incident with different eyes and feelings. But it is important to know different perspectives. This is one. If you want to know more about Jews in Portugal. Thanks. José >From our archives -Rx Portuguese Jews /http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/hol/cou/por/por-jew.html <http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/hol/cou/por/por-jew.html> Portugal has one of the longest histories of Jewish settlement in Europe. Jewish settlement may date to the 8th century BC at the time of the first Diaspora. The status of Jews has varied widely. There have been times in which Jews prospered and were honoured members of society. At other times they have suffered horrific persecution and were finally banished from Portugal. Many converted to Christianity. Some continued Jewish religious practices in secret. Other lost all identity as Jews. Portugal at the time of World War II had perhaps the smallest Jewish population in Europe. The country had a Jewish population of about 380 people and 650 Jewish refugees, mostly from Central Europe. The Government granted these refugees "resident" status. Ancient History Portugal has one of the longest histories of Jewish settlement in Europe. Historians vary as to when Jews first appeared. Jewish settlement may date to the time of King Solomon (10th century BC). Other historians date Jewish settlement to the reign of Nebuchadnezzar and the first Diaspora (6th century BC). Roman Empire Portugal was Christianized during the later era of the Roman Empire. Barbarian Invasions Portuguese Christianity was strengthened when the Visigoths conquered the Iberian Peninsula. The Visigoths wee an already Christianized Germanic tribe. They established an early Christian kingdom (6th century). Evidence of Jewish commercial and social activity exists in the Iberian Peninsula during the time of the early Visigoth kingdom after the fall of Rome. Islamic Era There are also historical records of Jewish community in the era of Muslim rule. The area of modern Portugal was conquered by the Moors (8th century) there were may converts to Islam. Christianity in fact was nearly extinguished in southern Portugal. Christianity remained dominant in northern Portugal. It was Christianity that provided the cultural core that moulded Portugal as a distinctive entity on the Iberian Peninsula and fueled the Reconquista. Early Portuguese Kingdom (12th-13th centuries) Christianity became the rallying cry of the Reconquista. The Roman Catholic Church predates the Portuguese nation by centuries. King Afonso Henriques (1139-85) was the first king of Portugal and the founder of Portuguese nation. Under Afonso, church and state were associated into a mutually beneficial if not always harmonious partnership. Gradually the Reconquista restored Christian rule to Portugal and the rest of the Iberian Peninsula. The status of Jews varied widely in the various Christian kingdoms and over time. There have been times in which Jews prospered and were honoured members of society. At other times they have suffered horrific persecution and were finally banished from Portugal. The Portuguese Kingdom was founded during the Reconquista (12th century). At the time there was still relative benign toleration of Jews in Portugal compared to the situation in other European countries such as England, France, Germany, and Italy. This was in pat because of the spirit! of toleration and learning fostered by Islam. The monarchy also found the Jews as valuable subjects. The Jewish community was a recognized legal entity. The Crown thus appointed specific officials to educate Jewish cases. Afonso Henriques appointed Yahia ben Yahi III as royal tax collector and supervisor. He also became the first chief Rabbi of the Portugese Jewish community. King Sancho I (1185-1211) appointed Jose ben Yahi, Yahia ben Yahi’s grandson, High Steward of the Realm. Such appointments would have been unheard of in other Western European countries. Gradually anti-Semitism spread in the Iberian Peninsula as the Reconquista pushed Islamic kingdoms back to increasingly isolated southern kingdoms. Anti-Semitism was at first most pronounced with the lower classes and middle classes. The clergy played a major role in promoting anti-Semitism among the lower classes. Within the middle classes there was an element of commercial competition. The Portuguese clergy pushed! to have the restrictions on Jews authorized by the Lateran Co! uncil ap p lied in Portugal. King Dinis (1279-1235) defended the Jews and refused to require them to pay tithes to the church. Era of Discovery (14th-15th centuries) Portugal is a small country located on the periphery of Europe. It has not played a major role in European history. The one exception is during a brief period in the late medieval era. The reason for this is largely geography. The expanding European economies created a growing demand for luxury goods from the East, especially China. The Arabs controlled the trade routes to the east, especially after the fall of Constantinople. This greatly added to the cost of these items which Venetian control of the eastern Mediterranean made even more expensive. This Europeans sought a way around the Arab/Venetian stranglehold on commerce. Portugal and Spain jutting out into the Atlantic were ideally situated to pursue this endeavour the early voyages of discovery <http://histclo.com/eco/vod/eco-vod.html> were financed by the Portuguese. The Portuguese also were a center of learning on navigation, vessel construction, and geography. Prince Henry the Navigator played a key role in the ente! rprise. Portugal's Jewish community played an important role in Portugal’s success at this time. Estimates suggest that in the 14th century Portugal's Jewish population may have totalled 200,000 people, about 20 percent of the overall population. The Jews were separated into separate districts of the towns, but were not confined to them. The Jewish quarters had a synagogue, slaughter house, hospital, jails, bath houses and facilities. A rabbi would be appointed with both administrative and legal authority. Scholarship flourished in Portugal at the time. Here Jewish scholars were especially important. In part because Jewish boys were expected to learn go read and write, while literacy was rare among the Christians. (All Jews were expected to study the Holy Scriptures. The Christian Church did not encourage the faithful to read the Bible. Men who tried to translate the Bible into the national languages were declared heretics and burned at the stake.) Abraham Zacuto develope! d key tables that proved invaluable to Portuguese navigators. ! Vasco Da Gama used his tables on his ground breaking voyage to India. Guedelha-Master Guedelha was a rabbi as well as a doctor and astrologer to both King Duarte and King Alfonso V. Isaac Abravanel was one of the most important merchants in Portugal and helped to finance many voyages. Jose Vizinho served as a doctor and astrologer to King Joao II. Abraham de Beja was sent by King Joao II on important voyages. Jews in large part because of their learning were among the intellectual and economic elite of the kingdom. We have named a few individuals here, but Jews were involved in all aspects of Portugal's explosion on to the world's stage at this time. They helped finance the voyages, made important scientific discoveries (especially in mathematics, medicine and cartography). Many Jews received prestigious appointments as physicians and astronomers. The degree to which they were trusted by successive monarchs is reflected in these appointments as well as appointment as royal treasurers! , tax collectors and advisors. Jews were among the richest in the kingdom. Portugal prospered as did the Jews. Rising Anti-Semitism (14th-15th centuries) The rampant anti-Semitism of Western Europe could not help but affect Portugal. Certainly the success of the Jews created resentment among Christians. The clergy helped fuel this sentiment. Jews fleeing persecution in Spain flocked to Portugal (1391). The large number of Jews adds to Christian intolerance. Gradually more restrictions were placed on Portuguese Jews. King Joao I (1385-1432) required Jews to wear distinctive clothes to identify them. He also established a curfew by which rime they had to retire to the Jewish quarter. King Duarte (1433-1438) prohibited Jews from employing Christians. King Alfonso V had a more benign outlook and repealed some restrictions. King Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain influenced by the desire to purify the Kingdom and profit as well the Jews from Spain (1492). Over 150,000 Spanish Jews sought refuge in Portugal King Joao II did allow them to enter. He had various reasons including a desire to benefit from their wealth and skills (especial! ly weapon making). A small number of wealthy and skilled Spanish Jews were accepted as residents. The others were permitted to stay for only 8 months with a fee of 8 cruzados per adult. After 8 months those that remained were made slaves of the crown. The King then seized the children, several hundred of whom were sent to Sao Tome (1493). The 500th anniversary of this tragic event was celebrated on Sao Tome by some of their descendents (1993). Expulsion Manuel I (1494- ) had more favourable attitudes toward the Jews and restored their freedom. He did not have a strong grip on the throne. He sought to strengthen his position by marrying Princess Isabel. As the daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella, this would greatly strengthen his dynastic position. Isabel was ardently Catholic and just as ardently anti-Semitic. She demanded that he expel the Jews as her parents had done. Manuel was no anxious to expel Portugal's Jews, but signed the marriage contract (November 30, 1496). Only 5days later he issued a decree requiring all Jews to leave Portugal by October 1497. Manuel understood the economic importance of Portugal's Jews. While he issued the decree he tried to impede their departure. He insisted that they could only leave through the port of Lisbon. He attempted to convert the Jews before the deadline. The King ordered Jews to bring their children (ages 4-14 years) to Lisbon (March 19, 1497). The first day of Passover was speci! fically chosen. When they arrived, the authorities moved to separate the children from their parents to be given to good Catholic parents who would raise them as good Catholics. Some of the Jewish parents resisted and killed themselves and their children. Some relinquished their children. Other accepted baptism so they could keep their children. Finally about 20,000 Jews arrived in Lisbon preparing to embark for new homes (October 1947). Authorities forced them into the courtyard of Os estaos palace. There priests harangued them in an effort to convert them. Some accepted conversion. Other resisted. They were then told that they would be made slaves. Most finally gave in the demands. They were then hurriedly baptised and made "New Christians." Impact What was the impact of the expulsion? It is no accident that Portugal and Spain before the wave of anti-Semitism and anti-Islamic fervour was one of the leading centers of learning in Europe. That learning made the voyages of discovery possible. After the expulsion, the economic and political trajectory of both Spain and Portugal was downward. Even with the wealth of the Indies Portuguese and Spanish power declined. Within only a few years, the growing technological sophistication of England and help from the weather defeated the Great Armada. The 16th century saw the beginning of the scientific discoveries that were to transform Europe. While Spain and Portugal had once been a center of learning, none of the new discoveries came from the Iberian Peninsula. Of course the loss of the Jews was just one factor. The corrosive impact of the Inquisition on thought and inquiry was another major factor. Of course the two are interlinked. The Jews were some of the most learned and ed! ucated people in the two kingdoms. Spain and Portugal which once shown so bright were destined to become backwaters of Europe. Almost hermit-like kingdoms which did not really rejoin Europe until the deaths of Salazar and Franco. The Holocaust <http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/hol/holc-por.html> Portugal was a major gateway to safety for Jews and Europeans who had opposed the NAZIs. Portugal itself had perhaps the smallest Jewish population in Europe at the time of World war II. The country had a Jewish population of about 380 people and 650 Jewish refugees, mostly from Central Europe. The Government granted these refugees "resident" status. Prime Minister Salazar was in a difficult position. Portugal was a traditional British ally. After the fall of France (June 1940), Portugal adopted a liberal visa policy allowing thousands of Jewish refugees to enter the country, however, those of Russian origin or birth because they might be Communists were excluded. Portugal came under increasing pressure from the NAZIs. Salazar has some breathing space because Franco refused to enter the War or allow German armies to transit Spain to seize Gibraltar. Even so, Salazar had to tread the Germans with care as he could not be sure that Germany might not invade Spain. Unlike Spain, ! Portugal did not close its border, but refugees had to get across the French-Spanish border which was closed. The danger posed by the NAZIs caused Salazar to issue more stringent immigration restrictions (late 1940). Aristides de Sousa Mendes, a Portuguese diplomat in Vichy France, ignored Government directives and issued large numbers of visas allowing Jews in France to travel to Portugal. The Portuguese Government dismissed him as a result. Portugal as the War turned against Germany felt safe to begin granting more entry visas. The Government cooperated in various rescue efforts. The Government granted the visas with the condition that Portugal would be a transit point and that other countries would accept them. Portugal like other neutral countries attempted to save Hungarian Jews. An estimated 100,000 Jews and other refuges fleeing NAZI oppression managed to reach safety through Portugal. All the Jews who managed to reach Portugal survived the War. http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/hol/cou/por/por-jew.html <http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/hol/cou/por/por-jew.html> <http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=255&letter=C&search=castro> -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: February 12, 2007 2:25 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Margaret, Going back to the 1500's... There were POOR Jews too! Some Jews were slaves (ok... servants, employees) of other Jews. Many Jews were craftmen (goldsmith, etc.) and merchants (while the other Madeirans were working the fields), allowing them to be more protected when anything went wrong in agriculture. Many new-christian (jewish) merchants - the richest - got their wealth with the traffic of black slaves from Africa. Most of these (the richest), were persecuted by Inquisition. So, most of them left Portugal and went to Holland, where they kept their businesses and got richer (holland was becoming a capitalist society). Brazil got a funny independance. Prince Pedro, the future king of Portugal decided to remain in Brazil when his father the king (and the Crown Government) asked him to go back to mainland Portugal. He then shouted "liberdade ou morte" (freedom or death) or something of the kind. It seems that Prince Pedro, Emperor of Brazil and later King Pedro IV of Portugal was a Mason. The role of Masonry in the independance of Brazil? Probably the same that allowed the Portuguese to get rid of our "saviours", the British... did the Masons do it alone, or their role was none? Luis ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose: Read your item with great interest. My question is asked humbly. If the people were so poverty stricken, how did the Jews gain wealth? Did they gain from the mercantile policies? What influence did the Mason have in the independence of Brazil and the church? Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca To: luis_k_w@clix.pt; prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis. It is common for Madeirans to have a different perspective from those in the rectangle. We can see that just yesterday. Anyway, I too watched Saraiva's program. I happen to like him and his way of doing history. I am told that the Portuguese intelligentsia does not. Let me make it quite clear. Madeira was not a poor island! In the 15th and 16th centuries we were very rich. Rich enough to finance the tragic Moroccan policy of the crown (keeping indefensible forts in the coast) and the expeditions down the African coast. Sugar brought great fortunes to Madeira. The point we need to make is that we were made impoverished by centralist, imperial mercantile policies which eventually lead as an example to Brazilian independence. It is true that we had very bad years, decades! These were made much worse because there was never any investment in any infrastructure for centuries. In good time the money left, in bad times we starved or emigrated! If we stole, we stole our money! Dr. Alberto Vieira is a very capable historian and very precise in his research. Something that leaves a lot to be desired in Saraiva. Vieira does not give opinions. He has the facts. On the Jews. King Manuel didn't really expel the Jews. They stayed. The flat earth society officially believes what they believe. It doesn't make them right. Long after Manuel died they were extricating money from Jews in Madeira. This went up to 1640. The Jewish people have survived worst oppressions but they never stopped being Jews. In Belmonte they never did! In fact, in Portugal there is a growing movement of Ben-anussim returning to the fold. They did not disappear. They are still us. Portuguese can be whatever they want to be. That is not my business. And by the way, it is not anybody's business who is a Jew either. (Well, unless you are the Chief Rabbi in Jerusalem). Personally, I still don't know the difference between a Portuguese and a Gallician or a Castillian. True this is a low blow. I am not American, I am Canadian. I am not sure we are fond of anybody, but in this new world we cherish freedom and the struggle to be free. We are countries of great ideas and great dreams. We are open societies with all of its imperfections. Much like Portugal in its heyday. I think Madeirans of the Diaspora need to know that much research needs to be done in this area of how we became a people and our common history while in these islands for the last 500 years. It is always a pleasure to exchange ideas with you Luis. Hopefully we don't drive people to boredom too much. I know that if you watch Saraiva you can't be bored! José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis K W Sent: February 10, 2007 8:26 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear All «Habilitando», someone who qualifies for something (to be a priest, a lawyer, a noble...). Dear Pat. Of course the subject is touchy. We are used to say that our ancestors are PORTUGUESE. And the truth is: even those Jews from which we all descend, were PORTUGUESE. Besides, the portuguese DON'T FEEL JEWS. They feel Portuguese. Do you feel German? Or Moor? Or Italian? It is most likely that every portuguese descendant has German (visigoth, etc.), Moor, or Roman ancestors. What about all the thousands of slaves that came to Portugal in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries (and I mean, not only the black African slaves, but also those who came from Asia)? Do you have an ancestor son of an unknown MOTHER? My guess is that she probably was a (black, asian, etc.) slave... Why then so much talk about the Jews? Is it to forget all the others? :-)) For instance: I have ONE NEW-CHRISTIAN among my 16.384 13xgrandparents. Her name is (was) Aldonça Gramaxo, born in Portimao in 1554. Her grandfather was a new-christian who married an old-christian Gramaxo woman (Ines G., born ca 1505). Some people (mostly from the US) would find this enough to say they ARE Jews. :-) But all we know is that her grandfather was a new-christian!! And what about all the other 16.383 portuguese 13xgrandparents?!? I also have an ancestor who is said to be a new-christian, living in the 12th century. But this one could be a Moor... :-) (Rui Capom, or Rui Fernandes Capom), Pizarro says "Rui Capão( or Capom)", almoxarife of D.Urraca; LL (LL42X7) by Conde D. Pedro, says that Rui Capon was a new-christian, having changed his name when he was Baptized. We all know that most portuguese descend from people of many different "races". That's what makes us portuguese. So, my question is: why are americans so fond of Jews?!? Why not of the Moors, who had a great civilization, as the Jews never had?? By the way: did you know that the Califs of southern iberia (Al-Andalus) were under the rule of the Lords of... Bagdad (from circa 750, until circa 929)?!? And now us, dear Jose Fernandes. If the Jews were 25% (!!) of the total population circa 1500's, shouldn't it be much easier to find new-christians among everyone's ancestors?!? No. They never were more than 10-12%. And they were imediately expelled from Portugal when they reached that number (after many spanish Jews arrived in Portugal, expelled from Spain). After the Law of Expulsion, by king D Manuel, Judaism was forbidden (if a Jew was caught he was condemned to death). So, everything you wrote can't be exactly right because, *officially*, there were no Jews in Portugal. :-) There were no taxes or money to extricate "from Jews" because Jews were expelled OR BECAME (new-)CHRISTIANS. On the other hand, there were lots of New-Christians (ex-Jews and ex-Moors) who were protected by several laws by the same King D Manuel. It was (obviously) not against the law to be a new-christian. BUT, there were many n-c who faked to be christians (or accused of faking it). And this was what the Inquisition was fond of: *rich* traders accused of keep practising Judaism... Of course we have Jewish cemiteries all over the country (we also have British cemeteries, etc)... But they are not that old! The funny thing about Madeirans (and Brazilians) is that they keep saying that all the money from taxes went to mainland Portugal. :-)) Historian Jose' Hermano Saraiva said, some months ago, about Brazil (but this is also true for Madeira): 1 most people didn't pay (all) the taxes they should; 2 most of the collected taxes were not declared (hidden) and remained in the pockets of local officials; 3 the taxes were 1/10 or 1/5 of what was declared as profit or revenue. So, most of the money largely remained where it was earned/produced. 4 the taxes that finally arrived in mainland (after all the bribery and robbery) were a little price to pay for the PEOPLE who left Portugal to develop that country (meaning Brazil - and Madeira, i must add). Besides, if Madeira was so poor as it is said, those taxes could not be such a large amount of money. ;-) Luís K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- From: papagaia2 Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the ' itando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ---------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! 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Thank You Jose, I appreciate your comments/opinions on this subject. I have placed an order with the Madeira Archives for the publication that you noted. Pat Silva Corbera California USA "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> wrote: Pat, It is touchy because in part they are us! Imagine that! We don't know what to do with that given the atrocities that have been committed against part of our own! But that is just my opinion. When I was at the cemetery, I did not see any Sephardic names on the tombs. They seemed to be mostly from the 19th century. I was not able to get in. The door was locked. The book has a subtitle "rol dos Judeus e seus descendentes". You can order from the archives. It is the 7th book listed under "Publications". I believe it is in Portuguese only. Thank you for including this subject on your website. José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of papagaia2 Sent: February 9, 2007 5:53 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" To: Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the 'habilitando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Margaret, Madeira was a wealthy island. The sugar trade and later on the wine trade brought great wealth to Madeira. There were many wealthy traders. One of them was Esmeraldo. Columbus stayed at his house in the 1480's. Some traders were Jews. Some families lived in the island for over a century. Eventually many left in the late 16th and early 17th century to the Canaries, Holland and Brazil. So, there were wealthy families. Even in the worst of our times, there were great fortunes in Madeira. These were the upper class, which eventually were attracted by Court life and took their money to Lisbon. Some were Jews. Others were not. Did the mercantile policies of England have anything to do with American independence? Colonial states exist for the greatness of the mother country. We existed in a colonial status until 1974. I am not the one who says it. Our President Dr. Albert Jardim has made that statement. I happen to agree the president. As far as Brazil's independence, I am not an expert on that. I am not sure that there is one answer. Imagine Peter I of Brazil later becomes Peter IV of Portugal. The man who declared independence, later on returns to claim the Throne of Portugal! Our Madeiran tragedy is not that were a poor island(s), the tragedy is that they made us poor. The "they" also include the old Madeiran families. Today, we are overcoming that. José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Sent: February 12, 2007 2:03 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Jose: Read your item with great interest. My question is asked humbly. If the people were so poverty stricken, how did the Jews gain wealth? Did they gain from the mercantile policies? What influence did the Mason have in the independence of Brazil and the church? Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> To: <luis_k_w@clix.pt>; <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis. It is common for Madeirans to have a different perspective from those in the rectangle. We can see that just yesterday. Anyway, I too watched Saraiva's program. I happen to like him and his way of doing history. I am told that the Portuguese intelligentsia does not. Let me make it quite clear. Madeira was not a poor island! In the 15th and 16th centuries we were very rich. Rich enough to finance the tragic Moroccan policy of the crown (keeping indefensible forts in the coast) and the expeditions down the African coast. Sugar brought great fortunes to Madeira. The point we need to make is that we were made impoverished by centralist, imperial mercantile policies which eventually lead as an example to Brazilian independence. It is true that we had very bad years, decades! These were made much worse because there was never any investment in any infrastructure for centuries. In good time the money left, in bad times we starved or emigrated! If we stole, we stole our money! Dr. Alberto Vieira is a very capable historian and very precise in his research. Something that leaves a lot to be desired in Saraiva. Vieira does not give opinions. He has the facts. On the Jews. King Manuel didn't really expel the Jews. They stayed. The flat earth society officially believes what they believe. It doesn't make them right. Long after Manuel died they were extricating money from Jews in Madeira. This went up to 1640. The Jewish people have survived worst oppressions but they never stopped being Jews. In Belmonte they never did! In fact, in Portugal there is a growing movement of Ben-anussim returning to the fold. They did not disappear. They are still us. Portuguese can be whatever they want to be. That is not my business. And by the way, it is not anybody's business who is a Jew either. (Well, unless you are the Chief Rabbi in Jerusalem). Personally, I still don't know the difference between a Portuguese and a Gallician or a Castillian. True this is a low blow. I am not American, I am Canadian. I am not sure we are fond of anybody, but in this new world we cherish freedom and the struggle to be free. We are countries of great ideas and great dreams. We are open societies with all of its imperfections. Much like Portugal in its heyday. I think Madeirans of the Diaspora need to know that much research needs to be done in this area of how we became a people and our common history while in these islands for the last 500 years. It is always a pleasure to exchange ideas with you Luis. Hopefully we don't drive people to boredom too much. I know that if you watch Saraiva you can't be bored! José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis K W Sent: February 10, 2007 8:26 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear All «Habilitando», someone who qualifies for something (to be a priest, a lawyer, a noble...). Dear Pat. Of course the subject is touchy. We are used to say that our ancestors are PORTUGUESE. And the truth is: even those Jews from which we all descend, were PORTUGUESE. Besides, the portuguese DON'T FEEL JEWS. They feel Portuguese. Do you feel German? Or Moor? Or Italian? It is most likely that every portuguese descendant has German (visigoth, etc.), Moor, or Roman ancestors. What about all the thousands of slaves that came to Portugal in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries (and I mean, not only the black African slaves, but also those who came from Asia)? Do you have an ancestor son of an unknown MOTHER? My guess is that she probably was a (black, asian, etc.) slave... Why then so much talk about the Jews? Is it to forget all the others? :-)) For instance: I have ONE NEW-CHRISTIAN among my 16.384 13xgrandparents. Her name is (was) Aldonça Gramaxo, born in Portimao in 1554. Her grandfather was a new-christian who married an old-christian Gramaxo woman (Ines G., born ca 1505). Some people (mostly from the US) would find this enough to say they ARE Jews. :-) But all we know is that her grandfather was a new-christian!! And what about all the other 16.383 portuguese 13xgrandparents?!? I also have an ancestor who is said to be a new-christian, living in the 12th century. But this one could be a Moor... :-) (Rui Capom, or Rui Fernandes Capom), Pizarro says "Rui Capão( or Capom)", almoxarife of D.Urraca; LL (LL42X7) by Conde D. Pedro, says that Rui Capon was a new-christian, having changed his name when he was Baptized. We all know that most portuguese descend from people of many different "races". That's what makes us portuguese. So, my question is: why are americans so fond of Jews?!? Why not of the Moors, who had a great civilization, as the Jews never had?? By the way: did you know that the Califs of southern iberia (Al-Andalus) were under the rule of the Lords of... Bagdad (from circa 750, until circa 929)?!? And now us, dear Jose Fernandes. If the Jews were 25% (!!) of the total population circa 1500's, shouldn't it be much easier to find new-christians among everyone's ancestors?!? No. They never were more than 10-12%. And they were imediately expelled from Portugal when they reached that number (after many spanish Jews arrived in Portugal, expelled from Spain). After the Law of Expulsion, by king D Manuel, Judaism was forbidden (if a Jew was caught he was condemned to death). So, everything you wrote can't be exactly right because, *officially*, there were no Jews in Portugal. :-) There were no taxes or money to extricate "from Jews" because Jews were expelled OR BECAME (new-)CHRISTIANS. On the other hand, there were lots of New-Christians (ex-Jews and ex-Moors) who were protected by several laws by the same King D Manuel. It was (obviously) not against the law to be a new-christian. BUT, there were many n-c who faked to be christians (or accused of faking it). And this was what the Inquisition was fond of: *rich* traders accused of keep practising Judaism... Of course we have Jewish cemiteries all over the country (we also have British cemeteries, etc)... But they are not that old! The funny thing about Madeirans (and Brazilians) is that they keep saying that all the money from taxes went to mainland Portugal. :-)) Historian Jose' Hermano Saraiva said, some months ago, about Brazil (but this is also true for Madeira): 1 most people didn't pay (all) the taxes they should; 2 most of the collected taxes were not declared (hidden) and remained in the pockets of local officials; 3 the taxes were 1/10 or 1/5 of what was declared as profit or revenue. So, most of the money largely remained where it was earned/produced. 4 the taxes that finally arrived in mainland (after all the bribery and robbery) were a little price to pay for the PEOPLE who left Portugal to develop that country (meaning Brazil - and Madeira, i must add). Besides, if Madeira was so poor as it is said, those taxes could not be such a large amount of money. ;-) Luís K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- From: papagaia2 Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the ' itando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ---------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Jose and all: A visit to Villa da Vida on the continent would be very refreshing to everyone. Go to mass at the church, in the center, and after mass go through the stalls of merchandise sold by the villagers. The Villa is something to remember because of its history. The Jews were forced to convert and attend the mass occuping several rows of pews. They were not hostile and today they live peacefully with the Christians. They had a beautiful court with a community fountain in the center and the homes today are still very well kept. You can see the traits of their ancestors from the facial features and as merchants they still carry on their trade. There is a home there where on Friday nights the Jews would secretly pray and on Sunday it was mass. The villagers are of mixed races and some beautiful blue eyes. I will never forget my visit and it has been over 30 years. Let us see peaceful discussions on the subject because there is a lesson to be learned from those villagers. Forgive, forget, and blessings to all Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret" <marpg2000@comcast.net> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Jose: Read your item with great interest. My question is asked humbly. If the people were so poverty stricken, how did the Jews gain wealth? Did they gain from the mercantile policies? What influence did the Mason have in the independence of Brazil and the church? Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> To: <luis_k_w@clix.pt>; <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis. It is common for Madeirans to have a different perspective from those in the rectangle. We can see that just yesterday. Anyway, I too watched Saraiva's program. I happen to like him and his way of doing history. I am told that the Portuguese intelligentsia does not. Let me make it quite clear. Madeira was not a poor island! In the 15th and 16th centuries we were very rich. Rich enough to finance the tragic Moroccan policy of the crown (keeping indefensible forts in the coast) and the expeditions down the African coast. Sugar brought great fortunes to Madeira. The point we need to make is that we were made impoverished by centralist, imperial mercantile policies which eventually lead as an example to Brazilian independence. It is true that we had very bad years, decades! These were made much worse because there was never any investment in any infrastructure for centuries. In good time the money left, in bad times we starved or emigrated! If we stole, we stole our money! Dr. Alberto Vieira is a very capable historian and very precise in his research. Something that leaves a lot to be desired in Saraiva. Vieira does not give opinions. He has the facts. On the Jews. King Manuel didn't really expel the Jews. They stayed. The flat earth society officially believes what they believe. It doesn't make them right. Long after Manuel died they were extricating money from Jews in Madeira. This went up to 1640. The Jewish people have survived worst oppressions but they never stopped being Jews. In Belmonte they never did! In fact, in Portugal there is a growing movement of Ben-anussim returning to the fold. They did not disappear. They are still us. Portuguese can be whatever they want to be. That is not my business. And by the way, it is not anybody's business who is a Jew either. (Well, unless you are the Chief Rabbi in Jerusalem). Personally, I still don't know the difference between a Portuguese and a Gallician or a Castillian. True this is a low blow. I am not American, I am Canadian. I am not sure we are fond of anybody, but in this new world we cherish freedom and the struggle to be free. We are countries of great ideas and great dreams. We are open societies with all of its imperfections. Much like Portugal in its heyday. I think Madeirans of the Diaspora need to know that much research needs to be done in this area of how we became a people and our common history while in these islands for the last 500 years. It is always a pleasure to exchange ideas with you Luis. Hopefully we don't drive people to boredom too much. I know that if you watch Saraiva you can't be bored! José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis K W Sent: February 10, 2007 8:26 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear All «Habilitando», someone who qualifies for something (to be a priest, a lawyer, a noble...). Dear Pat. Of course the subject is touchy. We are used to say that our ancestors are PORTUGUESE. And the truth is: even those Jews from which we all descend, were PORTUGUESE. Besides, the portuguese DON'T FEEL JEWS. They feel Portuguese. Do you feel German? Or Moor? Or Italian? It is most likely that every portuguese descendant has German (visigoth, etc.), Moor, or Roman ancestors. What about all the thousands of slaves that came to Portugal in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries (and I mean, not only the black African slaves, but also those who came from Asia)? Do you have an ancestor son of an unknown MOTHER? My guess is that she probably was a (black, asian, etc.) slave... Why then so much talk about the Jews? Is it to forget all the others? :-)) For instance: I have ONE NEW-CHRISTIAN among my 16.384 13xgrandparents. Her name is (was) Aldonça Gramaxo, born in Portimao in 1554. Her grandfather was a new-christian who married an old-christian Gramaxo woman (Ines G., born ca 1505). Some people (mostly from the US) would find this enough to say they ARE Jews. :-) But all we know is that her grandfather was a new-christian!! And what about all the other 16.383 portuguese 13xgrandparents?!? I also have an ancestor who is said to be a new-christian, living in the 12th century. But this one could be a Moor... :-) (Rui Capom, or Rui Fernandes Capom), Pizarro says "Rui Capão( or Capom)", almoxarife of D.Urraca; LL (LL42X7) by Conde D. Pedro, says that Rui Capon was a new-christian, having changed his name when he was Baptized. We all know that most portuguese descend from people of many different "races". That's what makes us portuguese. So, my question is: why are americans so fond of Jews?!? Why not of the Moors, who had a great civilization, as the Jews never had?? By the way: did you know that the Califs of southern iberia (Al-Andalus) were under the rule of the Lords of... Bagdad (from circa 750, until circa 929)?!? And now us, dear Jose Fernandes. If the Jews were 25% (!!) of the total population circa 1500's, shouldn't it be much easier to find new-christians among everyone's ancestors?!? No. They never were more than 10-12%. And they were imediately expelled from Portugal when they reached that number (after many spanish Jews arrived in Portugal, expelled from Spain). After the Law of Expulsion, by king D Manuel, Judaism was forbidden (if a Jew was caught he was condemned to death). So, everything you wrote can't be exactly right because, *officially*, there were no Jews in Portugal. :-) There were no taxes or money to extricate "from Jews" because Jews were expelled OR BECAME (new-)CHRISTIANS. On the other hand, there were lots of New-Christians (ex-Jews and ex-Moors) who were protected by several laws by the same King D Manuel. It was (obviously) not against the law to be a new-christian. BUT, there were many n-c who faked to be christians (or accused of faking it). And this was what the Inquisition was fond of: *rich* traders accused of keep practising Judaism... Of course we have Jewish cemiteries all over the country (we also have British cemeteries, etc)... But they are not that old! The funny thing about Madeirans (and Brazilians) is that they keep saying that all the money from taxes went to mainland Portugal. :-)) Historian Jose' Hermano Saraiva said, some months ago, about Brazil (but this is also true for Madeira): 1 most people didn't pay (all) the taxes they should; 2 most of the collected taxes were not declared (hidden) and remained in the pockets of local officials; 3 the taxes were 1/10 or 1/5 of what was declared as profit or revenue. So, most of the money largely remained where it was earned/produced. 4 the taxes that finally arrived in mainland (after all the bribery and robbery) were a little price to pay for the PEOPLE who left Portugal to develop that country (meaning Brazil - and Madeira, i must add). Besides, if Madeira was so poor as it is said, those taxes could not be such a large amount of money. ;-) Luís K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- From: papagaia2 Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the ' itando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ---------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Jose: Read your item with great interest. My question is asked humbly. If the people were so poverty stricken, how did the Jews gain wealth? Did they gain from the mercantile policies? What influence did the Mason have in the independence of Brazil and the church? Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> To: <luis_k_w@clix.pt>; <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis. It is common for Madeirans to have a different perspective from those in the rectangle. We can see that just yesterday. Anyway, I too watched Saraiva's program. I happen to like him and his way of doing history. I am told that the Portuguese intelligentsia does not. Let me make it quite clear. Madeira was not a poor island! In the 15th and 16th centuries we were very rich. Rich enough to finance the tragic Moroccan policy of the crown (keeping indefensible forts in the coast) and the expeditions down the African coast. Sugar brought great fortunes to Madeira. The point we need to make is that we were made impoverished by centralist, imperial mercantile policies which eventually lead as an example to Brazilian independence. It is true that we had very bad years, decades! These were made much worse because there was never any investment in any infrastructure for centuries. In good time the money left, in bad times we starved or emigrated! If we stole, we stole our money! Dr. Alberto Vieira is a very capable historian and very precise in his research. Something that leaves a lot to be desired in Saraiva. Vieira does not give opinions. He has the facts. On the Jews. King Manuel didn't really expel the Jews. They stayed. The flat earth society officially believes what they believe. It doesn't make them right. Long after Manuel died they were extricating money from Jews in Madeira. This went up to 1640. The Jewish people have survived worst oppressions but they never stopped being Jews. In Belmonte they never did! In fact, in Portugal there is a growing movement of Ben-anussim returning to the fold. They did not disappear. They are still us. Portuguese can be whatever they want to be. That is not my business. And by the way, it is not anybody's business who is a Jew either. (Well, unless you are the Chief Rabbi in Jerusalem). Personally, I still don't know the difference between a Portuguese and a Gallician or a Castillian. True this is a low blow. I am not American, I am Canadian. I am not sure we are fond of anybody, but in this new world we cherish freedom and the struggle to be free. We are countries of great ideas and great dreams. We are open societies with all of its imperfections. Much like Portugal in its heyday. I think Madeirans of the Diaspora need to know that much research needs to be done in this area of how we became a people and our common history while in these islands for the last 500 years. It is always a pleasure to exchange ideas with you Luis. Hopefully we don't drive people to boredom too much. I know that if you watch Saraiva you can't be bored! José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis K W Sent: February 10, 2007 8:26 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear All «Habilitando», someone who qualifies for something (to be a priest, a lawyer, a noble...). Dear Pat. Of course the subject is touchy. We are used to say that our ancestors are PORTUGUESE. And the truth is: even those Jews from which we all descend, were PORTUGUESE. Besides, the portuguese DON'T FEEL JEWS. They feel Portuguese. Do you feel German? Or Moor? Or Italian? It is most likely that every portuguese descendant has German (visigoth, etc.), Moor, or Roman ancestors. What about all the thousands of slaves that came to Portugal in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries (and I mean, not only the black African slaves, but also those who came from Asia)? Do you have an ancestor son of an unknown MOTHER? My guess is that she probably was a (black, asian, etc.) slave... Why then so much talk about the Jews? Is it to forget all the others? :-)) For instance: I have ONE NEW-CHRISTIAN among my 16.384 13xgrandparents. Her name is (was) Aldonça Gramaxo, born in Portimao in 1554. Her grandfather was a new-christian who married an old-christian Gramaxo woman (Ines G., born ca 1505). Some people (mostly from the US) would find this enough to say they ARE Jews. :-) But all we know is that her grandfather was a new-christian!! And what about all the other 16.383 portuguese 13xgrandparents?!? I also have an ancestor who is said to be a new-christian, living in the 12th century. But this one could be a Moor... :-) (Rui Capom, or Rui Fernandes Capom), Pizarro says "Rui Capão( or Capom)", almoxarife of D.Urraca; LL (LL42X7) by Conde D. Pedro, says that Rui Capon was a new-christian, having changed his name when he was Baptized. We all know that most portuguese descend from people of many different "races". That's what makes us portuguese. So, my question is: why are americans so fond of Jews?!? Why not of the Moors, who had a great civilization, as the Jews never had?? By the way: did you know that the Califs of southern iberia (Al-Andalus) were under the rule of the Lords of... Bagdad (from circa 750, until circa 929)?!? And now us, dear Jose Fernandes. If the Jews were 25% (!!) of the total population circa 1500's, shouldn't it be much easier to find new-christians among everyone's ancestors?!? No. They never were more than 10-12%. And they were imediately expelled from Portugal when they reached that number (after many spanish Jews arrived in Portugal, expelled from Spain). After the Law of Expulsion, by king D Manuel, Judaism was forbidden (if a Jew was caught he was condemned to death). So, everything you wrote can't be exactly right because, *officially*, there were no Jews in Portugal. :-) There were no taxes or money to extricate "from Jews" because Jews were expelled OR BECAME (new-)CHRISTIANS. On the other hand, there were lots of New-Christians (ex-Jews and ex-Moors) who were protected by several laws by the same King D Manuel. It was (obviously) not against the law to be a new-christian. BUT, there were many n-c who faked to be christians (or accused of faking it). And this was what the Inquisition was fond of: *rich* traders accused of keep practising Judaism... Of course we have Jewish cemiteries all over the country (we also have British cemeteries, etc)... But they are not that old! The funny thing about Madeirans (and Brazilians) is that they keep saying that all the money from taxes went to mainland Portugal. :-)) Historian Jose' Hermano Saraiva said, some months ago, about Brazil (but this is also true for Madeira): 1 most people didn't pay (all) the taxes they should; 2 most of the collected taxes were not declared (hidden) and remained in the pockets of local officials; 3 the taxes were 1/10 or 1/5 of what was declared as profit or revenue. So, most of the money largely remained where it was earned/produced. 4 the taxes that finally arrived in mainland (after all the bribery and robbery) were a little price to pay for the PEOPLE who left Portugal to develop that country (meaning Brazil - and Madeira, i must add). Besides, if Madeira was so poor as it is said, those taxes could not be such a large amount of money. ;-) Luís K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- From: papagaia2 Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the ' itando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ---------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Luis. It is common for Madeirans to have a different perspective from those in the rectangle. We can see that just yesterday. Anyway, I too watched Saraiva's program. I happen to like him and his way of doing history. I am told that the Portuguese intelligentsia does not. Let me make it quite clear. Madeira was not a poor island! In the 15th and 16th centuries we were very rich. Rich enough to finance the tragic Moroccan policy of the crown (keeping indefensible forts in the coast) and the expeditions down the African coast. Sugar brought great fortunes to Madeira. The point we need to make is that we were made impoverished by centralist, imperial mercantile policies which eventually lead as an example to Brazilian independence. It is true that we had very bad years, decades! These were made much worse because there was never any investment in any infrastructure for centuries. In good time the money left, in bad times we starved or emigrated! If we stole, we stole our money! Dr. Alberto Vieira is a very capable historian and very precise in his research. Something that leaves a lot to be desired in Saraiva. Vieira does not give opinions. He has the facts. On the Jews. King Manuel didn't really expel the Jews. They stayed. The flat earth society officially believes what they believe. It doesn't make them right. Long after Manuel died they were extricating money from Jews in Madeira. This went up to 1640. The Jewish people have survived worst oppressions but they never stopped being Jews. In Belmonte they never did! In fact, in Portugal there is a growing movement of Ben-anussim returning to the fold. They did not disappear. They are still us. Portuguese can be whatever they want to be. That is not my business. And by the way, it is not anybody's business who is a Jew either. (Well, unless you are the Chief Rabbi in Jerusalem). Personally, I still don't know the difference between a Portuguese and a Gallician or a Castillian. True this is a low blow. I am not American, I am Canadian. I am not sure we are fond of anybody, but in this new world we cherish freedom and the struggle to be free. We are countries of great ideas and great dreams. We are open societies with all of its imperfections. Much like Portugal in its heyday. I think Madeirans of the Diaspora need to know that much research needs to be done in this area of how we became a people and our common history while in these islands for the last 500 years. It is always a pleasure to exchange ideas with you Luis. Hopefully we don't drive people to boredom too much. I know that if you watch Saraiva you can't be bored! José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis K W Sent: February 10, 2007 8:26 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear All «Habilitando», someone who qualifies for something (to be a priest, a lawyer, a noble...). Dear Pat. Of course the subject is touchy. We are used to say that our ancestors are PORTUGUESE. And the truth is: even those Jews from which we all descend, were PORTUGUESE. Besides, the portuguese DON'T FEEL JEWS. They feel Portuguese. Do you feel German? Or Moor? Or Italian? It is most likely that every portuguese descendant has German (visigoth, etc.), Moor, or Roman ancestors. What about all the thousands of slaves that came to Portugal in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries (and I mean, not only the black African slaves, but also those who came from Asia)? Do you have an ancestor son of an unknown MOTHER? My guess is that she probably was a (black, asian, etc.) slave... Why then so much talk about the Jews? Is it to forget all the others? :-)) For instance: I have ONE NEW-CHRISTIAN among my 16.384 13xgrandparents. Her name is (was) Aldonça Gramaxo, born in Portimao in 1554. Her grandfather was a new-christian who married an old-christian Gramaxo woman (Ines G., born ca 1505). Some people (mostly from the US) would find this enough to say they ARE Jews. :-) But all we know is that her grandfather was a new-christian!! And what about all the other 16.383 portuguese 13xgrandparents?!? I also have an ancestor who is said to be a new-christian, living in the 12th century. But this one could be a Moor... :-) (Rui Capom, or Rui Fernandes Capom), Pizarro says "Rui Capão( or Capom)", almoxarife of D.Urraca; LL (LL42X7) by Conde D. Pedro, says that Rui Capon was a new-christian, having changed his name when he was Baptized. We all know that most portuguese descend from people of many different "races". That's what makes us portuguese. So, my question is: why are americans so fond of Jews?!? Why not of the Moors, who had a great civilization, as the Jews never had?? By the way: did you know that the Califs of southern iberia (Al-Andalus) were under the rule of the Lords of... Bagdad (from circa 750, until circa 929)?!? And now us, dear Jose Fernandes. If the Jews were 25% (!!) of the total population circa 1500's, shouldn't it be much easier to find new-christians among everyone's ancestors?!? No. They never were more than 10-12%. And they were imediately expelled from Portugal when they reached that number (after many spanish Jews arrived in Portugal, expelled from Spain). After the Law of Expulsion, by king D Manuel, Judaism was forbidden (if a Jew was caught he was condemned to death). So, everything you wrote can't be exactly right because, *officially*, there were no Jews in Portugal. :-) There were no taxes or money to extricate "from Jews" because Jews were expelled OR BECAME (new-)CHRISTIANS. On the other hand, there were lots of New-Christians (ex-Jews and ex-Moors) who were protected by several laws by the same King D Manuel. It was (obviously) not against the law to be a new-christian. BUT, there were many n-c who faked to be christians (or accused of faking it). And this was what the Inquisition was fond of: *rich* traders accused of keep practising Judaism... Of course we have Jewish cemiteries all over the country (we also have British cemeteries, etc)... But they are not that old! The funny thing about Madeirans (and Brazilians) is that they keep saying that all the money from taxes went to mainland Portugal. :-)) Historian Jose' Hermano Saraiva said, some months ago, about Brazil (but this is also true for Madeira): 1 most people didn't pay (all) the taxes they should; 2 most of the collected taxes were not declared (hidden) and remained in the pockets of local officials; 3 the taxes were 1/10 or 1/5 of what was declared as profit or revenue. So, most of the money largely remained where it was earned/produced. 4 the taxes that finally arrived in mainland (after all the bribery and robbery) were a little price to pay for the PEOPLE who left Portugal to develop that country (meaning Brazil - and Madeira, i must add). Besides, if Madeira was so poor as it is said, those taxes could not be such a large amount of money. ;-) Luís K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- From: papagaia2 Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the ' itando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ---------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Pat, It is touchy because in part they are us! Imagine that! We don't know what to do with that given the atrocities that have been committed against part of our own! But that is just my opinion. When I was at the cemetery, I did not see any Sephardic names on the tombs. They seemed to be mostly from the 19th century. I was not able to get in. The door was locked. The book has a subtitle "rol dos Judeus e seus descendentes". You can order from the archives. It is the 7th book listed under "Publications". I believe it is in Portuguese only. Thank you for including this subject on your website. José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of papagaia2 Sent: February 9, 2007 5:53 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the 'habilitando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Pat, It's not easy (technically) to FIND your comments in my original text. I'll try to give you a global answer. Why is it touchy? First, let me ask you a question: When you say "Jew" do you mean a different race or a different faith/religion from the nowadays average portuguese? BOTH, isn't it? I'm sure that the average portuguese is either catholic or atheists, and he doesn't feel specially attached to any people from the Middle East - that we see like people loving to be at war with each other... In the US you may stop in a street of New Bedford and shout: "Hey! You are all Portuguese!". They probably are (recent descendants of Portuguese immigrants), and they will smile at you. But it's not the same when you move to Portugal. We've already agreed that most Portuguese descend from different peoples, with different cultures and religions. Try to shout, in the middle of any portuguese village the following truth: "you are all irakis (moors)", or germans (visigoths), or italians (romans), or black africans (slaves), or... I think they will call some good doctors to put you away for a while. :-) Some of the questions you've made came from the confusion of the word Jew. For me, back in the 15th century (and before), a Jew was someone from a different race, culture, language, religion, they dressed differently from others, lived in different neighbourhoods, payed different taxes, had their own laws and leaders. Those "portuguese" jews used to say from themselves that they were people "de nação" /from (another/Jewish) nation. No, back then, they were not like the common portuguese people. [And please note that before the 15th, "nationality" wasn't such a strong issue as it is now (C.Colon appears in several documents as "portuguese" just because he was living and working in Portugal - well... or probably not). :-)] Nowadays, portuguese Jews are simply Portuguese people following the jewish religion. It's completely different. And again, most Portuguese of the 21th century feel like descending from Portuguese people (whatever that means), and not from "Jews" from before the 15th century (or moors from the 10th century, or visigoths from the 7th century, or romans from the 5th century, etc.). Is that clear now? I never said I dislike Jews. What I notice is a large amount of information about some notorious Jews (all the names you wrote are well known by most of us), and nothing, or almost nothing about all the others races/peoples that lived in Portugal. And I do not understand why you wrote "why is this subject not discussed?"? We keep doing it all the time!!!! I go nuts everytime someone writes "my name is Pereira, how will I find my jewish roots?". LOLOLOL Ok. My thoughts came out probably because i'm a Libra (Balança in Portuguese). :-) And yes. It seems to me that Gramacho and Gramaxo have the same origin... Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- My Dearest Primo Luis K W, I have added my comments/notations within the text of your posting below, indicated by +++. Prima Pat California USA Luis K W luis_k_w@clix.pt wrote: Dear All «Habilitando», someone who qualifies for something (to be a priest, a lawyer, a noble...). Dear Pat. Of course the subject is touchy. We are used to say that our ancestors are PORTUGUESE. +++Hello My Dear Primo Luis K W, +++I was hoping that you would enter into this discussion. And the truth is: even those Jews from which we all descend, were PORTUGUESE. +++I agree, so once again, why is it such a touchy subject? Besides, the portuguese DON'T FEEL JEWS. They feel Portuguese. +++Are you saying that if one practices a different faith, then one does not feel/consider oneself being Portuguese? Do you think that our New-Christian ancestors no longer considered themselves Portuguese? +++What about our Portuguese ancestors from Madeira that followed Dr. Robert Reid Kalley and became Protestants, did they no longer consider themselves Portuguese? Do you feel German? Or Moor? Or Italian? It is most likely that every portuguese descendant has German (visigoth, etc.), Moor, or Roman ancestors. +++Either I'm missing your point or you are misunderstanding my question...To learn about one's New-Christian ancestry does not change the fact that these ancestors came from all walks of life, and ethnic backgrounds. Why would one not want to know about ie. the German, the Italian or the Moorish ancestor that became possibly the first generation to practice a different faith than their father? What about all the thousands of slaves that came to Portugal in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries (and I mean, not only the black African slaves, but also those who came from Asia)? Do you have an ancestor son of an unknown MOTHER? My guess is that she probably was a (black, asian, etc.) slave... Why then so much talk about the Jews? Is it to forget all the others? :-)) +++This is a very valid point... so let's open up the discussion about these "others." What were their customs, what religion did they practice, etc. It's not enough to simply say "I'm Portuguese," and leave it at that. For instance: I have ONE NEW-CHRISTIAN among my 16.384 13xgrandparents. Her name is (was) Aldonça Gramaxo, born in Portimao in 1554. Her grandfather was a new-christian who married an old-christian Gramaxo woman (Ines G., born ca 1505). +++ Luis, is Gramaxo the same as Gramacho? I have Gramacho ancestry in Madeira. Some people (mostly from the US) would find this enough to say they ARE Jews. :-) +++ Luis, you're missing the entire point of my question. I want to know why it's a touchy subject. I'm not asking this question as an American because I want to be a Jew... and what's this reference to "mostly from the US? But all we know is that her grandfather was a new-christian!! And what about all the other 16.383 portuguese 13xgrandparents?!? +++I think that's a wonderful "find," just learning that one of your ancestors was a "New Christian," now you can try and locate a reference to one of your ancestors being a Muslim, or any other faith. I also have an ancestor who is said to be a new-christian, living in the 12th century. But this one could be a Moor... :-) +++What about Abraham Zacuto and his family? This 15th century author of "Almanach Perpetuum" published in Leiria in 1496. The expulsion decree of 1492 brought them to Portugal, even though he belonged to a family of French origin, which had emigrated to Castille in the 14th. century? Was he no longer French? What about Pedro Nunes, a Portuguese mathematician and cosmographer-major, author of "Tratado da Esfera," published in Lisbon in 1537... he was a first generation "New-Christian." He was born in Alcacer do Sal? Still a Portuguese. Gracia Nasi (b. 1510) A first generation crypto-Jew she was born in Portugal and christened Beatriz de Luna. In 1528 she married Francisco Mendes, a New-Christian. Many of our ancestors converted to the Jewish faith, but this fact did not wipe out their ancestral roots. (Rui Capom, or Rui Fernandes Capom), Pizarro says "Rui Capão( or Capom)", almoxarife of D.Urraca; LL (LL42X7) by Conde D. Pedro, says that Rui Capon was a new-christian, having changed his name when he was Baptized. We all know that most portuguese descend from people of many different "races". That's what makes us portuguese. +++Yes we are descended from people of many different "races," and these "people," practiced many different faiths. So why is this subject not discussed? So, my question is: why are americans so fond of Jews?!? Why not of the Moors, who had a great civilization, as the Jews never had?? +++Can I turn your question around and ask " what's with the dislike of the Jews? Why not mention the historical figures that helped to shape of world as we know it today... Abraham Zacuto - author - who published in 1496 the tables which provided the principal base for Portuguese navigation at the end of the 15th century and the beginning of the 16th century. Respected as "Mathematician to the King." Guedelha- Master Guedlha - Doctor and astrologer to both King Duarte and King Afonso V. Guedelha Palacano - loyal supporter of Prince Henry. He financed a number of overseas expeditions. Isaac Abravanel - Doctor and philosopher. Made huge loans to King Afonso V. Jaime de Maiorca - famed cartographer and constructor of Maiorcan compasses, came to Portugal at the request of Prince Henry to teach Portuguese cartographers. Samuel Gacon - A member of the Jewish community in Faro. The first Portugeuse incunabula was printed on his press in 1487. Antonio Jose da Silva - known as "the Jew," born in Rio de Janeiro, son of a wealthy colonial family, also one of the victims of the Inquisition. "One of the great Portuguese playwrights of the 18th. century. Menasseh Ben Israel - 1604-1657 Baptized Manuel Dias Soeiro, as a child his family went to Holland to escape the Inquisition. He was given the Jewish name of Menasseh Ben Israel, and later became a rabbi. He introduced Hebraic-Portuguese printing in Amsterdam. And the lists goes on... Portuguese Jews have contributed greatly... Source: "The Jews in Portugal" ICEP Tourism Information Department Av. 5 de Outubro, 101 1000 LIsboa Portugal Why does this all boil down to "why are Americans so fond of Jews?" What would your reaction/comments be if my question was about one being of the Muslim faith, and even better if one had actually linked with Muhammad the Prophet? By the way: did you know that the Califs of southern iberia (Al-Andalus) were under the rule of the Lords of... Bagdad (from circa 750, until circa 929)?!? I have read about the Al Andalus, (Islamic Spain) being organized under the civil and religious leadership of the caliph of Damascus. Jews continued to play an important role in commerce, scholarship and the professions during this time. In 756 the Arab-dominated Umayyard dynasty at Damascus was overthrown by the Abbasids, who moved the caliphate to Baghdad. In 756, the exiled Umayyard prince Abd ar Rahman I establish himself as the 1st. emir omiada de Cordoba. He founded the Caliphate of Cordoba. Abd ar Rahman is my 36th Great Grandfather (if one can accurately traced one's ancestry back that far. We're at the mercy that documented history is correct) Pat California, USA I'll let Jose Fernandes add his comments to your posting below... ;-)) And now us, dear Jose Fernandes. If the Jews were 25% (!!) of the total population circa 1500's, shouldn't it be much easier to find new-christians among everyone's ancestors?!? No. They never were more than 10-12%. And they were imediately expelled from Portugal when they reached that number (after many spanish Jews arrived in Portugal, expelled from Spain). After the Law of Expulsion, by king D Manuel, Judaism was forbidden (if a Jew was caught he was condemned to death). So, everything you wrote can't be exactly right because, *officially*, there were no Jews in Portugal. :-) There were no taxes or money to extricate "from Jews" because Jews were expelled OR BECAME (new-)CHRISTIANS. On the other hand, there were lots of New-Christians (ex-Jews and ex-Moors) who were protected by several laws by the same King D Manuel. It was (obviously) not against the law to be a new-christian. BUT, there were many n-c who faked to be christians (or accused of faking it). And this was what the Inquisition was fond of: *rich* traders accused of keep practising Judaism... Of course we have Jewish cemiteries all over the country (we also have British cemeteries, etc)... But they are not that old! The funny thing about Madeirans (and Brazilians) is that they keep saying that all the money from taxes went to mainland Portugal. :-)) Historian Jose' Hermano Saraiva said, some months ago, about Brazil (but this is also true for Madeira): 1 most people didn't pay (all) the taxes they should; 2 most of the collected taxes were not declared (hidden) and remained in the pockets of local officials; 3 the taxes were 1/10 or 1/5 of what was declared as profit or revenue. So, most of the money largely remained where it was earned/produced. 4 the taxes that finally arrived in mainland (after all the bribery and robbery) were a little price to pay for the PEOPLE who left Portugal to develop that country (meaning Brazil - and Madeira, i must add). Besides, if Madeira was so poor as it is said, those taxes could not be such a large amount of money. ;-) Luís K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- From: papagaia2 Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the ' itando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/

Hi All..... Anyone there is a descendant of BrasGoncalves??? He married in 1580 in Sao Vicente with Maria Gomes and are the parents of: Pedro Bras Teixeira, Maria Francisca, Ana Bras, Isabel Goncalves, Iria Goncalves, Francisca Gomes and Francisco Goncalves Thank you Leandro

Hi All..... Anyone there is a descendant of BrasGoncalves??? He married in 1580 in Sao Vicente with Maria Gomes and are the parents of: Pedro Bras Teixeira, Maria Francisca, Ana Bras, Isabel Goncalves, Iria Goncalves, Francisca Gomes and Francisco Goncalves Thank you Leandro

My Dearest Primo Luis K W, I have added my comments/notations within the text of your posting below, indicated by +++. Prima Pat California USA Luis K W <luis_k_w@clix.pt> wrote: Dear All «Habilitando», someone who qualifies for something (to be a priest, a lawyer, a noble...). Dear Pat. Of course the subject is touchy. We are used to say that our ancestors are PORTUGUESE. +++Hello My Dear Primo Luis K W, +++I was hoping that you would enter into this discussion. And the truth is: even those Jews from which we all descend, were PORTUGUESE. +++I agree, so once again, why is it such a touchy subject? Besides, the portuguese DON'T FEEL JEWS. They feel Portuguese. +++Are you saying that if one practices a different faith, then one does not feel/consider oneself being Portuguese? Do you think that our New-Christian ancestors no longer considered themselves Portuguese? +++What about our Portuguese ancestors from Madeira that followed Dr. Robert Reid Kalley and became Protestants, did they no longer consider themselves Portuguese? Do you feel German? Or Moor? Or Italian? It is most likely that every portuguese descendant has German (visigoth, etc.), Moor, or Roman ancestors. +++Either I'm missing your point or you are misunderstanding my question...To learn about one's New-Christian ancestry does not change the fact that these ancestors came from all walks of life, and ethnic backgrounds. Why would one not want to know about ie. the German, the Italian or the Moorish ancestor that became possibly the first generation to practice a different faith than their father? What about all the thousands of slaves that came to Portugal in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries (and I mean, not only the black African slaves, but also those who came from Asia)? Do you have an ancestor son of an unknown MOTHER? My guess is that she probably was a (black, asian, etc.) slave... Why then so much talk about the Jews? Is it to forget all the others? :-)) +++This is a very valid point... so let's open up the discussion about these "others." What were their customs, what religion did they practice, etc. It's not enough to simply say "I'm Portuguese," and leave it at that. For instance: I have ONE NEW-CHRISTIAN among my 16.384 13xgrandparents. Her name is (was) Aldonça Gramaxo, born in Portimao in 1554. Her grandfather was a new-christian who married an old-christian Gramaxo woman (Ines G., born ca 1505). +++ Luis, is Gramaxo the same as Gramacho? I have Gramacho ancestry in Madeira. Some people (mostly from the US) would find this enough to say they ARE Jews. :-) +++ Luis, you're missing the entire point of my question. I want to know why it's a touchy subject. I'm not asking this question as an American because I want to be a Jew... and what's this reference to "mostly from the US? But all we know is that her grandfather was a new-christian!! And what about all the other 16.383 portuguese 13xgrandparents?!? +++I think that's a wonderful "find," just learning that one of your ancestors was a "New Christian," now you can try and locate a reference to one of your ancestors being a Muslim, or any other faith. I also have an ancestor who is said to be a new-christian, living in the 12th century. But this one could be a Moor... :-) +++What about Abraham Zacuto and his family? This 15th century author of "Almanach Perpetuum" published in Leiria in 1496. The expulsion decree of 1492 brought them to Portugal, even though he belonged to a family of French origin, which had emigrated to Castille in the 14th. century? Was he no longer French? What about Pedro Nunes, a Portuguese mathematician and cosmographer-major, author of "Tratado da Esfera," published in Lisbon in 1537... he was a first generation "New-Christian." He was born in Alcacer do Sal? Still a Portuguese. Gracia Nasi (b. 1510) A first generation crypto-Jew she was born in Portugal and christened Beatriz de Luna. In 1528 she married Francisco Mendes, a New-Christian. Many of our ancestors converted to the Jewish faith, but this fact did not wipe out their ancestral roots. (Rui Capom, or Rui Fernandes Capom), Pizarro says "Rui Capão( or Capom)", almoxarife of D.Urraca; LL (LL42X7) by Conde D. Pedro, says that Rui Capon was a new-christian, having changed his name when he was Baptized. We all know that most portuguese descend from people of many different "races". That's what makes us portuguese. +++Yes we are descended from people of many different "races," and these "people," practiced many different faiths. So why is this subject not discussed? So, my question is: why are americans so fond of Jews?!? Why not of the Moors, who had a great civilization, as the Jews never had?? +++Can I turn your question around and ask " what's with the dislike of the Jews? Why not mention the historical figures that helped to shape of world as we know it today... Abraham Zacuto - author - who published in 1496 the tables which provided the principal base for Portuguese navigation at the end of the 15th century and the beginning of the 16th century. Respected as "Mathematician to the King." Guedelha- Master Guedlha - Doctor and astrologer to both King Duarte and King Afonso V. Guedelha Palacano - loyal supporter of Prince Henry. He financed a number of overseas expeditions. Isaac Abravanel - Doctor and philosopher. Made huge loans to King Afonso V. Jaime de Maiorca - famed cartographer and constructor of Maiorcan compasses, came to Portugal at the request of Prince Henry to teach Portuguese cartographers. Samuel Gacon - A member of the Jewish community in Faro. The first Portugeuse incunabula was printed on his press in 1487. Antonio Jose da Silva - known as "the Jew," born in Rio de Janeiro, son of a wealthy colonial family, also one of the victims of the Inquisition. "One of the great Portuguese playwrights of the 18th. century. Menasseh Ben Israel - 1604-1657 Baptized Manuel Dias Soeiro, as a child his family went to Holland to escape the Inquisition. He was given the Jewish name of Menasseh Ben Israel, and later became a rabbi. He introduced Hebraic-Portuguese printing in Amsterdam. And the lists goes on... Portuguese Jews have contributed greatly... Source: "The Jews in Portugal" ICEP Tourism Information Department Av. 5 de Outubro, 101 1000 LIsboa Portugal Why does this all boil down to "why are Americans so fond of Jews?" What would your reaction/comments be if my question was about one being of the Muslim faith, and even better if one had actually linked with Muhammad the Prophet? By the way: did you know that the Califs of southern iberia (Al-Andalus) were under the rule of the Lords of... Bagdad (from circa 750, until circa 929)?!? I have read about the Al Andalus, (Islamic Spain) being organized under the civil and religious leadership of the caliph of Damascus. Jews continued to play an important role in commerce, scholarship and the professions during this time. In 756 the Arab-dominated Umayyard dynasty at Damascus was overthrown by the Abbasids, who moved the caliphate to Baghdad. In 756, the exiled Umayyard prince Abd ar Rahman I establish himself as the 1st. emir omiada de Cordoba. He founded the Caliphate of Cordoba. Abd ar Rahman is my 36th Great Grandfather (if one can accurately traced one's ancestry back that far. We're at the mercy that documented history is correct) Pat California, USA I'll let Jose Fernandes add his comments to your posting below... ;-)) And now us, dear Jose Fernandes. If the Jews were 25% (!!) of the total population circa 1500's, shouldn't it be much easier to find new-christians among everyone's ancestors?!? No. They never were more than 10-12%. And they were imediately expelled from Portugal when they reached that number (after many spanish Jews arrived in Portugal, expelled from Spain). After the Law of Expulsion, by king D Manuel, Judaism was forbidden (if a Jew was caught he was condemned to death). So, everything you wrote can't be exactly right because, *officially*, there were no Jews in Portugal. :-) There were no taxes or money to extricate "from Jews" because Jews were expelled OR BECAME (new-)CHRISTIANS. On the other hand, there were lots of New-Christians (ex-Jews and ex-Moors) who were protected by several laws by the same King D Manuel. It was (obviously) not against the law to be a new-christian. BUT, there were many n-c who faked to be christians (or accused of faking it). And this was what the Inquisition was fond of: *rich* traders accused of keep practising Judaism... Of course we have Jewish cemiteries all over the country (we also have British cemeteries, etc)... But they are not that old! The funny thing about Madeirans (and Brazilians) is that they keep saying that all the money from taxes went to mainland Portugal. :-)) Historian Jose' Hermano Saraiva said, some months ago, about Brazil (but this is also true for Madeira): 1 most people didn't pay (all) the taxes they should; 2 most of the collected taxes were not declared (hidden) and remained in the pockets of local officials; 3 the taxes were 1/10 or 1/5 of what was declared as profit or revenue. So, most of the money largely remained where it was earned/produced. 4 the taxes that finally arrived in mainland (after all the bribery and robbery) were a little price to pay for the PEOPLE who left Portugal to develop that country (meaning Brazil - and Madeira, i must add). Besides, if Madeira was so poor as it is said, those taxes could not be such a large amount of money. ;-) Luís K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- From: papagaia2 Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the ' itando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ---------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear All «Habilitando», someone who qualifies for something (to be a priest, a lawyer, a noble...). Dear Pat. Of course the subject is touchy. We are used to say that our ancestors are PORTUGUESE. And the truth is: even those Jews from which we all descend, were PORTUGUESE. Besides, the portuguese DON'T FEEL JEWS. They feel Portuguese. Do you feel German? Or Moor? Or Italian? It is most likely that every portuguese descendant has German (visigoth, etc.), Moor, or Roman ancestors. What about all the thousands of slaves that came to Portugal in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries (and I mean, not only the black African slaves, but also those who came from Asia)? Do you have an ancestor son of an unknown MOTHER? My guess is that she probably was a (black, asian, etc.) slave... Why then so much talk about the Jews? Is it to forget all the others? :-)) For instance: I have ONE NEW-CHRISTIAN among my 16.384 13xgrandparents. Her name is (was) Aldonça Gramaxo, born in Portimao in 1554. Her grandfather was a new-christian who married an old-christian Gramaxo woman (Ines G., born ca 1505). Some people (mostly from the US) would find this enough to say they ARE Jews. :-) But all we know is that her grandfather was a new-christian!! And what about all the other 16.383 portuguese 13xgrandparents?!? I also have an ancestor who is said to be a new-christian, living in the 12th century. But this one could be a Moor... :-) (Rui Capom, or Rui Fernandes Capom), Pizarro says "Rui Capão( or Capom)", almoxarife of D.Urraca; LL (LL42X7) by Conde D. Pedro, says that Rui Capon was a new-christian, having changed his name when he was Baptized. We all know that most portuguese descend from people of many different "races". That's what makes us portuguese. So, my question is: why are americans so fond of Jews?!? Why not of the Moors, who had a great civilization, as the Jews never had?? By the way: did you know that the Califs of southern iberia (Al-Andalus) were under the rule of the Lords of... Bagdad (from circa 750, until circa 929)?!? And now us, dear Jose Fernandes. If the Jews were 25% (!!) of the total population circa 1500's, shouldn't it be much easier to find new-christians among everyone's ancestors?!? No. They never were more than 10-12%. And they were imediately expelled from Portugal when they reached that number (after many spanish Jews arrived in Portugal, expelled from Spain). After the Law of Expulsion, by king D Manuel, Judaism was forbidden (if a Jew was caught he was condemned to death). So, everything you wrote can't be exactly right because, *officially*, there were no Jews in Portugal. :-) There were no taxes or money to extricate "from Jews" because Jews were expelled OR BECAME (new-)CHRISTIANS. On the other hand, there were lots of New-Christians (ex-Jews and ex-Moors) who were protected by several laws by the same King D Manuel. It was (obviously) not against the law to be a new-christian. BUT, there were many n-c who faked to be christians (or accused of faking it). And this was what the Inquisition was fond of: *rich* traders accused of keep practising Judaism... Of course we have Jewish cemiteries all over the country (we also have British cemeteries, etc)... But they are not that old! The funny thing about Madeirans (and Brazilians) is that they keep saying that all the money from taxes went to mainland Portugal. :-)) Historian Jose' Hermano Saraiva said, some months ago, about Brazil (but this is also true for Madeira): 1 most people didn't pay (all) the taxes they should; 2 most of the collected taxes were not declared (hidden) and remained in the pockets of local officials; 3 the taxes were 1/10 or 1/5 of what was declared as profit or revenue. So, most of the money largely remained where it was earned/produced. 4 the taxes that finally arrived in mainland (after all the bribery and robbery) were a little price to pay for the PEOPLE who left Portugal to develop that country (meaning Brazil - and Madeira, i must add). Besides, if Madeira was so poor as it is said, those taxes could not be such a large amount of money. ;-) Luís K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- From: papagaia2 Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the ' itando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----------

Can someone tell me who to contact (and how to) to ascertain the property holdings of my late grandfather in Canhas, Madeira? I don't speak/read/write Portuguese, so and English language contact would be great! Thanks.

Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the 'habilitando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes

Yes, and as researchers, we need to know that all data is suspect and not use it and certainly not pay for it! Thanks, Cheryl Hamm hammc@localnet.com 215-826-0833 -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Scot Austin Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 4:07 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Software You miss the point, what they are selling is unreliable, mostly undocumented, largely from unreliable sources to say nothing of the fact that it is stolen. I have never submitted a thing to them, but I find many instances of information and speculative information I have shared privately with others presented as fact and as their property. They are at the very least, unethical. Scot Melanie Pereira wrote: > Touche! > > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Cheryl Hamm > Sent: February 8, 2007 3:46 AM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Software > > > If you don't submit the data to them, they cannot sell it. > > Thanks, > > Cheryl Hamm > hammc@localnet.com > 215-826-0833 > > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Philip Rodrigues > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 11:23 PM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Software > > There is something you are doing that's not quite right. I use FTM 2005 > version and have printed many all in one trees. > I just this minute created a pdf file with everyone in my database and > it worked fine. I don't have a plotter, so in order to print the tree I > take the pdf file to kinkos and they print it exactly as I want it. Bit > expensive mind you. As far as the comments about FTM selling the data - > I agree it's not right but there is nothing I can do about it. > Maybe we should put together a petition to get them to stop that > practice. Just a thought. Philip > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Janette Chun <janettechun@shaw.ca> > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2007 3:13:24 PM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Software > > > This is timely as I too was thinking of switching programs. I've been > using Family Tree Maker for the last couple of years and last year > upgraded to the 2006 version. While it's fine as a database, I concur > with the comments below and I find the printing of charts a very > frustrating exercise. You can't print charts unless you use the > accompanying chart maker software which again has limitations - for > example you can't print an all in one chart...you can only produce > individual charts for ancestors and descendents. > > Janette > > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Scot Austin > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 11:57 AM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Software > > Personally, I have all kinds of reasons not to use FTM: > 1. It adds unwanted data to your information, estimating dates and so > forth. 2. They have taken all kinds of liberties with the GEDCOM > standards > making it incompatible with other programs. > 3. Worst of all, they encourage users to submit their data which they > then copyright, put on CD's and sell it back without checking for > accuracy, credibility or duplication, a most detestable practice in my > opinion. I have used PAF for some 15 years, back to when it was still a > DOS based program and find it more than adequate. Best of all it is > free. > > Scot > > Philip Rodrigues wrote: > >> I can second this opinion about Family Tree Maker. I have used it for >> > about 8 years and compared to others I have used it is far and away the > best I've seen. > >> Philip >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: "gregory.lima@comcast.net" <gregory.lima@comcast.net> >> To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com >> Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2007 1:12:30 PM >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Software >> >> >> I currently user Family Tree Maker 2005 version and find it works very >> > well. It seems to account for just about any possible situation. Just > last night while entering information about my mother's (Irish/English) > family I came across a somewhat unusual situation: an ancestor married > the daughter of his father's second wife. The wife was not this > ancestor's mother, but her daughter was his step sister. Anyway, Family > Tree Maker very easily handled collating the information. > >> Previously I used Ultimate Family Tree, which I found to be somewhat >> > cumersome, but more importantly it sometimes (too often for my liking) > mixed up information...moved information from one individual to another. > >> Hope this helps >> >> Greg Lima >> Washington State >> >> -------------- Original message -------------- >> From: Jeff Lake <j@jlake.net> >> >> >> >>> Hey list - >>> Can I ask what everyone is using for software to keep their records? >>> > I > >>> had some problems last year and now might be a good time to switch to >>> > > >>> something else. >>> Thanks >>> JL >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> > the > quotes > >>> in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

You miss the point, what they are selling is unreliable, mostly undocumented, largely from unreliable sources to say nothing of the fact that it is stolen. I have never submitted a thing to them, but I find many instances of information and speculative information I have shared privately with others presented as fact and as their property. They are at the very least, unethical. Scot Melanie Pereira wrote: > Touche! > > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Cheryl Hamm > Sent: February 8, 2007 3:46 AM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Software > > > If you don't submit the data to them, they cannot sell it. > > Thanks, > > Cheryl Hamm > hammc@localnet.com > 215-826-0833 > > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Philip Rodrigues > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 11:23 PM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Software > > There is something you are doing that's not quite right. I use FTM 2005 > version and have printed many all in one trees. > I just this minute created a pdf file with everyone in my database and > it worked fine. I don't have a plotter, so in order to print the tree I > take the pdf file to kinkos and they print it exactly as I want it. Bit > expensive mind you. As far as the comments about FTM selling the data - > I agree it's not right but there is nothing I can do about it. > Maybe we should put together a petition to get them to stop that > practice. Just a thought. Philip > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Janette Chun <janettechun@shaw.ca> > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2007 3:13:24 PM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Software > > > This is timely as I too was thinking of switching programs. I've been > using Family Tree Maker for the last couple of years and last year > upgraded to the 2006 version. While it's fine as a database, I concur > with the comments below and I find the printing of charts a very > frustrating exercise. You can't print charts unless you use the > accompanying chart maker software which again has limitations - for > example you can't print an all in one chart...you can only produce > individual charts for ancestors and descendents. > > Janette > > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Scot Austin > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 11:57 AM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Software > > Personally, I have all kinds of reasons not to use FTM: > 1. It adds unwanted data to your information, estimating dates and so > forth. 2. They have taken all kinds of liberties with the GEDCOM > standards > making it incompatible with other programs. > 3. Worst of all, they encourage users to submit their data which they > then copyright, put on CD's and sell it back without checking for > accuracy, credibility or duplication, a most detestable practice in my > opinion. I have used PAF for some 15 years, back to when it was still a > DOS based program and find it more than adequate. Best of all it is > free. > > Scot > > Philip Rodrigues wrote: > >> I can second this opinion about Family Tree Maker. I have used it for >> > about 8 years and compared to others I have used it is far and away the > best I've seen. > >> Philip >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: "gregory.lima@comcast.net" <gregory.lima@comcast.net> >> To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com >> Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2007 1:12:30 PM >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Software >> >> >> I currently user Family Tree Maker 2005 version and find it works very >> > well. It seems to account for just about any possible situation. Just > last night while entering information about my mother's (Irish/English) > family I came across a somewhat unusual situation: an ancestor married > the daughter of his father's second wife. The wife was not this > ancestor's mother, but her daughter was his step sister. Anyway, Family > Tree Maker very easily handled collating the information. > >> Previously I used Ultimate Family Tree, which I found to be somewhat >> > cumersome, but more importantly it sometimes (too often for my liking) > mixed up information...moved information from one individual to another. > >> Hope this helps >> >> Greg Lima >> Washington State >> >> -------------- Original message -------------- >> From: Jeff Lake <j@jlake.net> >> >> >> >>> Hey list - >>> Can I ask what everyone is using for software to keep their records? >>> > I > >>> had some problems last year and now might be a good time to switch to >>> > > >>> something else. >>> Thanks >>> JL >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> > the > quotes > >>> in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the 'habilitando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message