Duane De Mello <casademello@comcast.net> wrote: " However, I do not believe this forum is the appropriate place to discuss in detail, insofar-genealogical much less personal experience purposes." Hi Duane, Will you please explain what you meant by what you posted above? I, too am a first generation American born of Portuguese ancestry, soon to be 65. ;-). Born in Lowell, MA, but raised in San Diego CA. My family also lived in Oakland, San Leandro, Hayward, Newark, Livermore and now Tracy CA. All these cities had/have a solid community base of Portuguese residents. So I am "no stranger," to the Portuguese ways, as well as the "moda da Americana." Never the less I am still learning about the events that our Portuguese ancestors faced... as evident by Margaret"s reference to Castelo de Vide and the "safe house." What topics do you or other list members think should be discussed on this list ? I for one would like to know more about Dr. Robert Reid Kalley, the wealthy young Scottish physician who was also a minister of the Free Church of Scotland, and his missionary work among the Madeirans. How about Dr. Manuel Luciano da Silva, in analyzing Christopher Columbus' three real ciphers: his Sigla, his Monogram and his Blessing. What about "Portuguese Recipes," Ailments," Blessings to cure various conditions, ie. "the evil eye," some of these practices performed by our Madeira ancestors were taken from the "slaves," that were brought to Madeira to work the fields, etc. These practices could often be perceived as border line "witch craft." Or is this list simply a vehicle to post surnames? Maybe Luis Beal needs to re-state the purpose of this list group, so that we're all on "the same page." We claim to be Portuguese, (I liked what Luis K W said "whatever that means.") with like as well as different life experiences...in my opinion that need to be shared. Correct me if I'm totally off base. Adios, Pat Silva Corbera "Genealogists live in the Past Lane."

In previous postings the question has been asked about what is an acceptable payment method when ordering items from the Maderia Archives... I received an e-mail yesterday explaining this subject... it's basically the same message that Cristina (one of our list members) also received and shared with us. Pat Silva Corbera California USA ~~~~~~~~~~~~ a) The Payment in advance, by undated cheque, in euros or other currency, payable to Arquivo Regional da Madeira. Payments in foreign currency should take into account the exchange rate in effect at the time of purchase; b) Bank transfer. Procedure: - Deposit made to the account of Governo Regional da Madeira (IBAN: PT50 0019 0045 0020 51094) with transfer charges borne by the depositor. - The depositor should send the Regional Archives the proof of deposit or the data on the transfer operation by e-mail (ecultural.edu@arquivo-madeira.org) or fax (291 708 402) The Archives will fill the order only after confirmation of the transfer by the Treasurer of the Regional Government.. Dra. Sofia Santos, Responsável pelo Serviço Educativo / Extensão Cultural Arquivo Regional da Madeira Morada: Caminho dos Álamos nº35, Santo António 9020-064 Funchal Telefone: 291 708 400/410 Fax: 291 708 400 402 Site: http://www.arquivo-madeira.org E-mail: sofiasantos@arquivo-madeira.org

Dear Luis B. I agree with you. Let me add something else. Don't get me wrong. I do not want you to think I'm some kind of racist or anything. My opinion is: those gypsy "traders" got rich because they never payed taxes at street markets. Most of them DO NOT WANT to own stores because, this way, it's not easy to check how much they own/sell/etc., and they keep away from taxes. They became rich, all right. And they love showing it. That's why they (men and women) wear all the gold they can. In the last 20 years, many gypsies went to prison for a much more profitable trade: they became DRUG dealers. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Gypsies is exactly what I thought of too when I read your description. You say they begged discreetly, how long ago was that? When I was a young girl in the 70's they were indeed poor, wearing black clothing, never bathing, and they were always in small groups, at least where I lived in the suburbs of Lisbon, but they soon became rich selling all kinds of junk at the street markets. When I left Portugal in the late 80's they owned clothing stores, beautiful houses and cars, but still wore black and did not bathe :( They sell everything and anything they think you'll pay money for. I bet if you go back now they will be very different. Luis Beal ------------- Dear Margaret, I am sorry (once again), but I got to tell you that your description of Barcelos is just like I wrote that I've only seen almost-naked red indians and some very fat black people in the US. :-) Anyway, I've been smiling with your description of Barcelos (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelos) for the last couple of minutes. People from Barcelos are descendants of the Moors? Probably from those who were butchered in the late 900's (over 1000 years ago)? LOL People from Minho (northern Portugal) is known for being the living proof of the visigoths (and other germanic peoples) domination in the 7th and 8th century, until de arrival of the moors. Many still have blond hair and blue eyes. My guess is that those dark skin people, begging and wearing black clothes were GYPSIES! (or Romanians) LOLLoLuis ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose: You will find Castelo de Vide north of Portoalegre and there is a major road that leads to it. It is close to the Spansh border and there is a Spa near by. It is great to go on a Portuguese tour for the guides know the history and the historical buildings and you really learn a lot more from them. They are fluent in several languages. We were with a group from Belgium and he communicated very well with them in French and also translated everything for us in English. There were only four Americans in the group. It is important to book the tour before you leave however we were fortunate to join the tour with the aid of the conserge at the hotel. Another area of great interest is Barcelos. The towns people are decendants of the moors and so was our tour guide. They were very poor and in their plaza sold pottery. They would beg however it was done very decreetly and you knew that they had great need. It was interesting to see that they still occupied the town, were of the darker skin, and wore black clothing . They sell many of those roosters of pottery that we all are familiar with. Their merchandize was all of pottery. Maragaret ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/

Dear List Members, Extracted from "My Diary," published @ www.saudades.org/My_Diary.htm. This extraction was written by my dear prima Rufina Bernardetti Silva Mausenbaum, who is the webmaster of the "saudades.org," website. Rufina and I are 8th cousins, one generation removed, our common ancestors are Pedro Marques and Ana Sardinha from Madeira. Rufina's descends from Pedro's and Ana's daughter Ana Marques Sardinha who married 08 Jan 1691 in Ponta do Pargo Madeira to Joao Poleiro Fernandes. My line continued with Domingos Marques, the brother of Ana Marques Sardinha, who married Margarida Nunes. My parents had already migrated to the USA by the time Rufina's father was born in 1915 in the same Madeira village of the Calheta. Though distant in both kinship and miles, (Rufina in South Africa and I in the USA), our love and "longing" (saudade) brought us together as we traveled the journey of discovery in our quest to learn more about our Portuguese roots. Pat Silva Corbera California USA Posted with permission - Author - Rufina Bernardetti Silva Mausenbaum We stopped for a late lunch and to freshen-up before crossing the Spanish border to visit Valencia de Alcântara, the town where King Manuel and Isabela, daughter of the Spanish King and Queen, got married in 1497. A union which initiated -[until then unknown in Portugal] - a reign of terror on the Jews of Portugal which lasted for centuries, inflicting untold physiological damage on the population at large. Here, high above sea-level and close to the border of the two countries, we were taken on a walking tour of the old Jewish quarter and visited the recently reconstructed Synagogue. Again, this was a very moving and spiritual experience as we stood together in this old house of worship -joining hands, singing and dancing with such joy it felt as if heaven had joined us in this little village in Spain. Dusk was falling as we left with happy smiling faces -singing and rejoicing as we made our way back across the border to our hotel in Castelo de Vide. It had been a long and emotionally-charged day for all of us. We were grateful for the opportunity of relaxing over dinner, exchanging thoughts and laughs in good company. Next morning saw us being received at a reception by Castelo de Vide's Mayor, former-mayor and other city-officials, where we were briefed regarding the Jewish history of this beautiful town and had the former-mayor, Carolino Tapadejo, take us on a walking tour of the old Jewish quarter. He was proud -and rightfully so -of his role in getting Castelo de Vide's Jewish history recognized. It was to this old and beautiful town that many Spanish Jews joined the thriving local (Portuguese-Jewish) community when they were expelled from Spain in 1492. Former Prime Minister of Portugal, Mario Soares, apologized to the Jewish people in the presence of then Israeli Ambassador to Portugal, Colette Avital in 1989 . This took place during Mr Carolino Tapadejo's tenure as mayor, so we were fortunate to have someone who was involved and instrumental in the restoration of the Jewish quarter, take us on our tour. His passion and interest was infectious. It was clear that this project remains close to his heart. He admitted quite openly that he -as possibly most of the Portuguese in this town -could well be descendants of the forced converts from so long ago. We negotiated the picturesque narrow cobble-stoned and intricate network of winding streets, and all the while were intensely aware of the large Jewish community that once lived in this beautiful and well-preserved Judiaria. The synagogue, together with a yeshiva, located on the corner of the Rua da Judiaria and Rua da Fonte has recently been fully restored, with archaeological research having discovered three silos, dug out of granite and used for storing grain. Once again, we sang and rejoiced in the old house-of- worship and in my mind heard the voices and felt the presence of those far-away memories, joining us in song and celebration. As the Mikva has not yet been found, we indulged in a lively debate, all trying to work out where this essential part of Jewish-life and law could have been housed. We drank at the well in the square -where the community came to socialize - to drink the "healing waters" and "water the stone tulip.", discussing the folklore surrounding this stone tulip and the possible hint of something deeper not yet fully understood or discovered about this meeting place -this fountain in the form of a Tulip. Before leaving, I had the opportunity of stopping off at the shop of the last person in Castelo de Vide to identify today as Jewish -someone with whom I share a family name -and as I identified myself I was greeted with a warm, "Shalom" . Here we heard of visitors from Izmir whose ancestors had left written documents and drawings of the Judiaria from the time of the forced conversions and who on visiting the town could identify many of the places now documented, including the midwife's home! This was how they managed to restore the synagogue with its original architectural lines intact, found the Rabbi's house, and the oven for baking bread! We clambered gratefully onto the air-conditioned bus as the sun beat down mercilessly onto the Alentejo .... this mystical place of gliding plains, sudden mountains, and the finest cork forests in the world. The Alentejo's Cork Country is a sparsely populated region with open horizons, where the rhythm of life follows the rhythm of regional songs. This fertile land produces more than half of the world's total cork supply. >>>

Jose: Your comments are right on the mark. Thank you for stating them so clearly. Cheers and best wishes to all, Duane de Mello -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 12:51 PM To: luis_k_w@clix.pt; prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Some of these comments and the ones leading to this posting are not appropriate. With due respect, I don't question intent at this moment, but the impact of all your comments are racist. The Roma people have suffered tremendously in Europe. They continued to be discriminated in all Europe, in some countries more than others. A half a million were slaughtered in the Holocaust. They deserve more than you unfortunate comments. Don't get me wrong, I believe that you are expressing what a sizeable number of Portuguese would say. It doesn't make it right, but it speaks volumes about your country. I too am critical about my country, Canada. Just to save you time. This topic has nothing to do with Madeira other than show you , as madeiran Diaspora, a glimpse of attitudes of the "motherland" then and even now. We have a snowstorm here and I am house-bound. I have refused to get into this debate but unfortunately and obviously I don't any better! Jose Fernandez ________________________________ From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: Wed 2/14/2007 8:52 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis B. I agree with you. Let me add something else. Don't get me wrong. I do not want you to think I'm some kind of racist or anything. My opinion is: those gypsy "traders" got rich because they never payed taxes at street markets. Most of them DO NOT WANT to own stores because, this way, it's not easy to check how much they own/sell/etc., and they keep away from taxes. They became rich, all right. And they love showing it. That's why they (men and women) wear all the gold they can. In the last 20 years, many gypsies went to prison for a much more profitable trade: they became DRUG dealers. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Gypsies is exactly what I thought of too when I read your description. You say they begged discreetly, how long ago was that? When I was a young girl in the 70's they were indeed poor, wearing black clothing, never bathing, and they were always in small groups, at least where I lived in the suburbs of Lisbon, but they soon became rich selling all kinds of junk at the street markets. When I left Portugal in the late 80's they owned clothing stores, beautiful houses and cars, but still wore black and did not bathe :( They sell everything and anything they think you'll pay money for. I bet if you go back now they will be very different. Luis Beal ------------- Dear Margaret, I am sorry (once again), but I got to tell you that your description of Barcelos is just like I wrote that I've only seen almost-naked red indians and some very fat black people in the US. :-) Anyway, I've been smiling with your description of Barcelos (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelos) for the last couple of minutes. People from Barcelos are descendants of the Moors? Probably from those who were butchered in the late 900's (over 1000 years ago)? LOL People from Minho (northern Portugal) is known for being the living proof of the visigoths (and other germanic peoples) domination in the 7th and 8th century, until de arrival of the moors. Many still have blond hair and blue eyes. My guess is that those dark skin people, begging and wearing black clothes were GYPSIES! (or Romanians) LOLLoLuis ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose: You will find Castelo de Vide north of Portoalegre and there is a major road that leads to it. It is close to the Spansh border and there is a Spa near by. It is great to go on a Portuguese tour for the guides know the history and the historical buildings and you really learn a lot more from them. They are fluent in several languages. We were with a group from Belgium and he communicated very well with them in French and also translated everything for us in English. There were only four Americans in the group. It is important to book the tour before you leave however we were fortunate to join the tour with the aid of the conserge at the hotel. Another area of great interest is Barcelos. The towns people are decendants of the moors and so was our tour guide. They were very poor and in their plaza sold pottery. They would beg however it was done very decreetly and you knew that they had great need. It was interesting to see that they still occupied the town, were of the darker skin, and wore black clothing . They sell many of those roosters of pottery that we all are familiar with. Their merchandize was all of pottery. Maragaret ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de EUR 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de EUR 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Some of these comments and the ones leading to this posting are not appropriate. With due respect, I don't question intent at this moment, but the impact of all your comments are racist. The Roma people have suffered tremendously in Europe. They continued to be discriminated in all Europe, in some countries more than others. A half a million were slaughtered in the Holocaust. They deserve more than you unfortunate comments. Don't get me wrong, I believe that you are expressing what a sizeable number of Portuguese would say. It doesn't make it right, but it speaks volumes about your country. I too am critical about my country, Canada. Just to save you time. This topic has nothing to do with Madeira other than show you , as madeiran Diaspora, a glimpse of attitudes of the "motherland" then and even now. We have a snowstorm here and I am house-bound. I have refused to get into this debate but unfortunately and obviously I don't any better! Jose Fernandez ________________________________ From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: Wed 2/14/2007 8:52 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis B. I agree with you. Let me add something else. Don't get me wrong. I do not want you to think I'm some kind of racist or anything. My opinion is: those gypsy "traders" got rich because they never payed taxes at street markets. Most of them DO NOT WANT to own stores because, this way, it's not easy to check how much they own/sell/etc., and they keep away from taxes. They became rich, all right. And they love showing it. That's why they (men and women) wear all the gold they can. In the last 20 years, many gypsies went to prison for a much more profitable trade: they became DRUG dealers. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Gypsies is exactly what I thought of too when I read your description. You say they begged discreetly, how long ago was that? When I was a young girl in the 70's they were indeed poor, wearing black clothing, never bathing, and they were always in small groups, at least where I lived in the suburbs of Lisbon, but they soon became rich selling all kinds of junk at the street markets. When I left Portugal in the late 80's they owned clothing stores, beautiful houses and cars, but still wore black and did not bathe :( They sell everything and anything they think you'll pay money for. I bet if you go back now they will be very different. Luis Beal ------------- Dear Margaret, I am sorry (once again), but I got to tell you that your description of Barcelos is just like I wrote that I've only seen almost-naked red indians and some very fat black people in the US. :-) Anyway, I've been smiling with your description of Barcelos (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelos) for the last couple of minutes. People from Barcelos are descendants of the Moors? Probably from those who were butchered in the late 900's (over 1000 years ago)? LOL People from Minho (northern Portugal) is known for being the living proof of the visigoths (and other germanic peoples) domination in the 7th and 8th century, until de arrival of the moors. Many still have blond hair and blue eyes. My guess is that those dark skin people, begging and wearing black clothes were GYPSIES! (or Romanians) LOLLoLuis ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose: You will find Castelo de Vide north of Portoalegre and there is a major road that leads to it. It is close to the Spansh border and there is a Spa near by. It is great to go on a Portuguese tour for the guides know the history and the historical buildings and you really learn a lot more from them. They are fluent in several languages. We were with a group from Belgium and he communicated very well with them in French and also translated everything for us in English. There were only four Americans in the group. It is important to book the tour before you leave however we were fortunate to join the tour with the aid of the conserge at the hotel. Another area of great interest is Barcelos. The towns people are decendants of the moors and so was our tour guide. They were very poor and in their plaza sold pottery. They would beg however it was done very decreetly and you knew that they had great need. It was interesting to see that they still occupied the town, were of the darker skin, and wore black clothing . They sell many of those roosters of pottery that we all are familiar with. Their merchandize was all of pottery. Maragaret ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de EUR 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de EUR 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/

There is a difference between racism and the truth. I am not a racist and my comments, or Luis KW's, were not racist they were merely a description of how gypsies behave and their achievements over the last 30 years. It is a pity that anytime someone mentions something, whether good or bad, about another race or culture it is immediately viewed as racist. There are different obvious behaviors to each culture and race and stating their good and bad parts is NOT racism. Trashing them or putting them down IS racism. Stating facts IS NOT, it is the way life is, the way they want it to be. If you believe what we said speaks volumes about our country you are forgetting that the same situation exists in most of the southern European countries where gypsies have settled, and these countries will have similar stories to tell. We can end this discussion right here and go back to Madeira's genealogy topics (although there are probably gypsies in Madeira so it is not off topic) :) Just one more thing, you will eventually find out that since Madeira is part of Portugal talking about things that happened in the mainland (history) is not off topic. They share the same history and a lot of the same people :) Have a happy valentines day! Luis Beal Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 9:51:16 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Some of these comments and the ones leading to this posting are not appropriate. With due respect, I don't question intent at this moment, but the impact of all your comments are racist. The Roma people have suffered tremendously in Europe. They continued to be discriminated in all Europe, in some countries more than others. A half a million were slaughtered in the Holocaust. They deserve more than you unfortunate comments. Don't get me wrong, I believe that you are expressing what a sizeable number of Portuguese would say. It doesn't make it right, but it speaks volumes about your country. I too am critical about my country, Canada. Just to save you time. This topic has nothing to do with Madeira other than show you , as madeiran Diaspora, a glimpse of attitudes of the "motherland" then and even now. We have a snowstorm here and I am house-bound. I have refused to get into this debate but unfortunately and obviously I don't any better! Jose Fernandez ________________________________ From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: Wed 2/14/2007 8:52 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis B. I agree with you. Let me add something else. Don't get me wrong. I do not want you to think I'm some kind of racist or anything. My opinion is: those gypsy "traders" got rich because they never payed taxes at street markets. Most of them DO NOT WANT to own stores because, this way, it's not easy to check how much they own/sell/etc., and they keep away from taxes. They became rich, all right. And they love showing it. That's why they (men and women) wear all the gold they can. In the last 20 years, many gypsies went to prison for a much more profitable trade: they became DRUG dealers. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Gypsies is exactly what I thought of too when I read your description. You say they begged discreetly, how long ago was that? When I was a young girl in the 70's they were indeed poor, wearing black clothing, never bathing, and they were always in small groups, at least where I lived in the suburbs of Lisbon, but they soon became rich selling all kinds of junk at the street markets. When I left Portugal in the late 80's they owned clothing stores, beautiful houses and cars, but still wore black and did not bathe :( They sell everything and anything they think you'll pay money for. I bet if you go back now they will be very different. Luis Beal ------------- Dear Margaret, I am sorry (once again), but I got to tell you that your description of Barcelos is just like I wrote that I've only seen almost-naked red indians and some very fat black people in the US. :-) Anyway, I've been smiling with your description of Barcelos (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelos) for the last couple of minutes. People from Barcelos are descendants of the Moors? Probably from those who were butchered in the late 900's (over 1000 years ago)? LOL People from Minho (northern Portugal) is known for being the living proof of the visigoths (and other germanic peoples) domination in the 7th and 8th century, until de arrival of the moors. Many still have blond hair and blue eyes. My guess is that those dark skin people, begging and wearing black clothes were GYPSIES! (or Romanians) LOLLoLuis ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose: You will find Castelo de Vide north of Portoalegre and there is a major road that leads to it. It is close to the Spansh border and there is a Spa near by. It is great to go on a Portuguese tour for the guides know the history and the historical buildings and you really learn a lot more from them. They are fluent in several languages. We were with a group from Belgium and he communicated very well with them in French and also translated everything for us in English. There were only four Americans in the group. It is important to book the tour before you leave however we were fortunate to join the tour with the aid of the conserge at the hotel. Another area of great interest is Barcelos. The towns people are decendants of the moors and so was our tour guide. They were very poor and in their plaza sold pottery. They would beg however it was done very decreetly and you knew that they had great need. It was interesting to see that they still occupied the town, were of the darker skin, and wore black clothing . They sell many of those roosters of pottery that we all are familiar with. Their merchandize was all of pottery. Maragaret ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de EUR 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de EUR 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com

Dear Margaret, But, as I wrote before, until 1500, the Jews WERE a different people (from the "other" portuguese). It was not only a matter of Religion. They spoke a different language, they had a completely different culture, traditions, they had their own laws, judges and leaders, their clothes were different, they lived apart from the others (in "judiarias"), etc. So, they were easily identifiable. Besides, the (catholic) priests teached the hate over "Jews" - meaning race - the people that "killed Jesus"! Forgetting that Jesus was a Jew himself. Of course, in the 20th century a lot of things changed. Luis Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Pat: The Jews were Portuguese and spoke the language. They had been sheltered and protected by the Portuguese and were not removed from the Castelo de Vide. We were shown two center pews in the church were the Jews sat together during the mass. The safe house was just about 20 yards away in a narrow winding street not far from the church. They were dressed just like the others of the vlla and you couldnot compare them with the New York Jews etc. No braids, long hair or beards or black clothes. The safe house was vacant but we were able to visit and see the escape door, if it was needed. That is the house were the Friday night prayers were said. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patricia Corbera" papagaia2@sbcglobal.net To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Margaret, What nationality were these Jews that you observed in 1979 that still resided in this village with the Portuguese? What language did they speak ? Did you observe the Portuguese attending the synagogue or some other house of faith? Pat Margaret marpg2000@comcast.net wrote: Jose: Castelo de Vide is south of Lisbon. My notation is that it was a Jewish settlement in the 15th century. The synagogue stilll in use (1979) and the Jews still occupy the village along with the Portuguese. Very busy village square for marketing right in front of the church. Many tables set up with merchandise. Moorish influence in the steep streets and narrow paths. Houses typical of moorish architecture like the Alfama. Correct, if we donot heed the errors of the past we are surely going to repeat them in the future. However becsuse we are a combination of so many nationalities we must honor them all and hope it brings peace. Silva, Costa, Pereira a few others are in my line and I am very happy to be part of them. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" To: Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Margaret, One should always forgive but forget...is forever. We don't want our children to forget. We should have the dignity and the courage to remember because without that we are nothing. It has been said that if we forget history we are going to repeat it. Our memories and our collective memories are the fabric of a family, of a people. That is why they put some much effort and emphasis in making us forget. Where is that village? José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Sent: February 12, 2007 2:36 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Jose and all: A visit to Villa da Vida on the continent would be very refreshing to everyone. Go to mass at the church, in the center, and after mass go through the stalls of merchandise sold by the villagers. The Villa is something to remember because of its history. The Jews were forced to convert and attend the mass occuping several rows of pews. They were not hostile and today they live peacefully with the Christians. They had a beautiful court with a community fountain in the center and the homes today are still very well kept. You can see the traits of their ancestors from the facial features and as merchants they still carry on their trade. There is a home there where on Friday nights the Jews would secretly pray and on Sunday it was mass. The villagers are of mixed races and some beautiful blue eyes. I will never forget my visit and it has been over 30 years. Let us see peaceful discussions on the subject because there is a lesson to be learned from those villagers. Forgive, forget, and blessings to all Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret" To: Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Jose: Read your item with great interest. My question is asked humbly. If the people were so poverty stricken, how did the Jews gain wealth? Did they gain from the mercantile policies? What influence did the Mason have in the independence of Brazil and the church? Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" To: ; Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis. It is common for Madeirans to have a different perspective from those in the rectangle. We can see that just yesterday. Anyway, I too watched Saraiva's program. I happen to like him and his way of doing history. I am told that the Portuguese intelligentsia does not. Let me make it quite clear. Madeira was not a poor island! In the 15th and 16th centuries we were very rich. Rich enough to finance the tragic Moroccan policy of the crown (keeping indefensible forts in the coast) and the expeditions down the African coast. Sugar brought great fortunes to Madeira. The point we need to make is that we were made impoverished by centralist, imperial mercantile policies which eventually lead as an example to Brazilian independence. It is true that we had very bad years, decades! These were made much worse because there was never any investment in any infrastructure for centuries. In good time the money left, in bad times we starved or emigrated! If we stole, we stole our money! Dr. Alberto Vieira is a very capable historian and very precise in his research. Something that leaves a lot to be desired in Saraiva. Vieira does not give opinions. He has the facts. On the Jews. King Manuel didn't really expel the Jews. They stayed. The flat earth society officially believes what they believe. It doesn't make them right. Long after Manuel died they were extricating money from Jews in Madeira. This went up to 1640. The Jewish people have survived worst oppressions but they never stopped being Jews. In Belmonte they never did! In fact, in Portugal there is a growing movement of Ben-anussim returning to the fold. They did not disappear. They are still us. Portuguese can be whatever they want to be. That is not my business. And by the way, it is not anybody's business who is a Jew either. (Well, unless you are the Chief Rabbi in Jerusalem). Personally, I still don't know the difference between a Portuguese and a Gallician or a Castillian. True this is a low blow. I am not American, I am Canadian. I am not sure we are fond of anybody, but in this new world we cherish freedom and the struggle to be free. We are countries of great ideas and great dreams. We are open societies with all of its imperfections. Much like Portugal in its heyday. I think Madeirans of the Diaspora need to know that much research needs to be done in this area of how we became a people and our common history while in these islands for the last 500 years. It is always a pleasure to exchange ideas with you Luis. Hopefully we don't drive people to boredom too much. I know that if you watch Saraiva you can't be bored! José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis K W Sent: February 10, 2007 8:26 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear All «Habilitando», someone who qualifies for something (to be a priest, a lawyer, a noble...). Dear Pat. Of course the subject is touchy. We are used to say that our ancestors are PORTUGUESE. And the truth is: even those Jews from which we all descend, were PORTUGUESE. Besides, the portuguese DON'T FEEL JEWS. They feel Portuguese. Do you feel German? Or Moor? Or Italian? It is most likely that every portuguese descendant has German (visigoth, etc.), Moor, or Roman ancestors. What about all the thousands of slaves that came to Portugal in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries (and I mean, not only the black African slaves, but also those who came from Asia)? Do you have an ancestor son of an unknown MOTHER? My guess is that she probably was a (black, asian, etc.) slave... Why then so much talk about the Jews? Is it to forget all the others? :-)) For instance: I have ONE NEW-CHRISTIAN among my 16.384 13xgrandparents. Her name is (was) Aldonça Gramaxo, born in Portimao in 1554. Her grandfather was a new-christian who married an old-christian Gramaxo woman (Ines G., born ca 1505). Some people (mostly from the US) would find this enough to say they ARE Jews. :-) But all we know is that her grandfather was a new-christian!! And what about all the other 16.383 portuguese 13xgrandparents?!? I also have an ancestor who is said to be a new-christian, living in the 12th century. But this one could be a Moor... :-) (Rui Capom, or Rui Fernandes Capom), Pizarro says "Rui Capão( or Capom)", almoxarife of D.Urraca; LL (LL42X7) by Conde D. Pedro, says that Rui Capon was a new-christian, having changed his name when he was Baptized. We all know that most portuguese descend from people of many different "races". That's what makes us portuguese. So, my question is: why are americans so fond of Jews?!? Why not of the Moors, who had a great civilization, as the Jews never had?? By the way: did you know that the Califs of southern iberia (Al-Andalus) were under the rule of the Lords of... Bagdad (from circa 750, until circa 929)?!? And now us, dear Jose Fernandes. If the Jews were 25% (!!) of the total population circa 1500's, shouldn't it be much easier to find new-christians among everyone's ancestors?!? No. They never were more than 10-12%. And they were imediately expelled from Portugal when they reached that number (after many spanish Jews arrived in Portugal, expelled from Spain). After the Law of Expulsion, by king D Manuel, Judaism was forbidden (if a Jew was caught he was condemned to death). So, everything you wrote can't be exactly right because, *officially*, there were no Jews in Portugal. :-) There were no taxes or money to extricate "from Jews" because Jews were expelled OR BECAME (new-)CHRISTIANS. On the other hand, there were lots of New-Christians (ex-Jews and ex-Moors) who were protected by several laws by the same King D Manuel. It was (obviously) not against the law to be a new-christian. BUT, there were many n-c who faked to be christians (or accused of faking it). And this was what the Inquisition was fond of: *rich* traders accused of keep practising Judaism... Of course we have Jewish cemiteries all over the country (we also have British cemeteries, etc)... But they are not that old! The funny thing about Madeirans (and Brazilians) is that they keep saying that all the money from taxes went to mainland Portugal. :-)) Historian Jose' Hermano Saraiva said, some months ago, about Brazil (but this is also true for Madeira): 1 most people didn't pay (all) the taxes they should; 2 most of the collected taxes were not declared (hidden) and remained in the pockets of local officials; 3 the taxes were 1/10 or 1/5 of what was declared as profit or revenue. So, most of the money largely remained where it was earned/produced. 4 the taxes that finally arrived in mainland (after all the bribery and robbery) were a little price to pay for the PEOPLE who left Portugal to develop that country (meaning Brazil - and Madeira, i must add). Besides, if Madeira was so poor as it is said, those taxes could not be such a large amount of money. ;-) Luís K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- From: papagaia2 Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the ' itando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ---------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! 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Dear Margaret, I am sorry (once again), but I got to tell you that your description of Barcelos is just like I wrote that I've only seen almost-naked red indians and some very fat black people in the US. :-) Anyway, I've been smiling with your description of Barcelos (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelos) for the last couple of minutes. People from Barcelos are descendants of the Moors? Probably from those who were butchered in the late 900's (over 1000 years ago)? LOL People from Minho (northern Portugal) is known for being the living proof of the visigoths (and other germanic peoples) domination in the 7th and 8th century, until de arrival of the moors. Many still have blond hair and blue eyes. My guess is that those dark skin people, begging and wearing black clothes were GYPSIES! (or Romanians) LOLLoLuis ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose: You will find Castelo de Vide north of Portoalegre and there is a major road that leads to it. It is close to the Spansh border and there is a Spa near by. It is great to go on a Portuguese tour for the guides know the history and the historical buildings and you really learn a lot more from them. They are fluent in several languages. We were with a group from Belgium and he communicated very well with them in French and also translated everything for us in English. There were only four Americans in the group. It is important to book the tour before you leave however we were fortunate to join the tour with the aid of the conserge at the hotel. Another area of great interest is Barcelos. The towns people are decendants of the moors and so was our tour guide. They were very poor and in their plaza sold pottery. They would beg however it was done very decreetly and you knew that they had great need. It was interesting to see that they still occupied the town, were of the darker skin, and wore black clothing . They sell many of those roosters of pottery that we all are familiar with. Their merchandize was all of pottery. Maragaret ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/

Gypsies is exactly what I thought of too when I read your description. You say they begged discreetly, how long ago was that? When I was a young girl in the 70's they were indeed poor, wearing black clothing, never bathing, and they were always in small groups, at least where I lived in the suburbs of Lisbon, but they soon became rich selling all kinds of junk at the street markets. When I left Portugal in the late 80's they owned clothing stores, beautiful houses and cars, but still wore black and did not bathe :( They sell everything and anything they think you'll pay money for. I bet if you go back now they will be very different. Luis Beal Dear Margaret, I am sorry (once again), but I got to tell you that your description of Barcelos is just like I wrote that I've only seen almost-naked red indians and some very fat black people in the US. :-) Anyway, I've been smiling with your description of Barcelos (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelos) for the last couple of minutes. People from Barcelos are descendants of the Moors? Probably from those who were butchered in the late 900's (over 1000 years ago)? LOL People from Minho (northern Portugal) is known for being the living proof of the visigoths (and other germanic peoples) domination in the 7th and 8th century, until de arrival of the moors. Many still have blond hair and blue eyes. My guess is that those dark skin people, begging and wearing black clothes were GYPSIES! (or Romanians) LOLLoLuis ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose: You will find Castelo de Vide north of Portoalegre and there is a major road that leads to it. It is close to the Spansh border and there is a Spa near by. It is great to go on a Portuguese tour for the guides know the history and the historical buildings and you really learn a lot more from them. They are fluent in several languages. We were with a group from Belgium and he communicated very well with them in French and also translated everything for us in English. There were only four Americans in the group. It is important to book the tour before you leave however we were fortunate to join the tour with the aid of the conserge at the hotel. Another area of great interest is Barcelos. The towns people are decendants of the moors and so was our tour guide. They were very poor and in their plaza sold pottery. They would beg however it was done very decreetly and you knew that they had great need. It was interesting to see that they still occupied the town, were of the darker skin, and wore black clothing . They sell many of those roosters of pottery that we all are familiar with. Their merchandize was all of pottery. Maragaret ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail

Margaret, This is very interesting, it's the first time I have heard mention of a "safe house." Am I understanding this correctly, these Portuguese people who were of the Jewish faith, still attended mass, and also used the "safe house," for their Friday night prayer? What was the purpose of the escape door, if a "safe house," was there for their Friday night prayer? Were the Portuguese villagers that were Catholics respectful of the Friday night prayer ? Pat Margaret <marpg2000@comcast.net> wrote: Pat: The Jews were Portuguese and spoke the language. They had been sheltered and protected by the Portuguese and were not removed from the Castelo de Vide. We were shown two center pews in the church were the Jews sat together during the mass. The safe house was just about 20 yards away in a narrow winding street not far from the church. They were dressed just like the others of the vlla and you couldnot compare them with the New York Jews etc. No braids, long hair or beards or black clothes. The safe house was vacant but we were able to visit and see the escape door, if it was needed. That is the house were the Friday night prayers were said. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patricia Corbera" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Margaret, What nationality were these Jews that you observed in 1979 that still resided in this village with the Portuguese? What language did they speak ? Did you observe the Portuguese attending the synagogue or some other house of faith? Pat

Pat: The Jews were Portuguese and spoke the language. They had been sheltered and protected by the Portuguese and were not removed from the Castelo de Vide. We were shown two center pews in the church were the Jews sat together during the mass. The safe house was just about 20 yards away in a narrow winding street not far from the church. They were dressed just like the others of the vlla and you couldnot compare them with the New York Jews etc. No braids, long hair or beards or black clothes. The safe house was vacant but we were able to visit and see the escape door, if it was needed. That is the house were the Friday night prayers were said. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patricia Corbera" <papagaia2@sbcglobal.net> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Margaret, What nationality were these Jews that you observed in 1979 that still resided in this village with the Portuguese? What language did they speak ? Did you observe the Portuguese attending the synagogue or some other house of faith? Pat Margaret <marpg2000@comcast.net> wrote: Jose: Castelo de Vide is south of Lisbon. My notation is that it was a Jewish settlement in the 15th century. The synagogue stilll in use (1979) and the Jews still occupy the village along with the Portuguese. Very busy village square for marketing right in front of the church. Many tables set up with merchandise. Moorish influence in the steep streets and narrow paths. Houses typical of moorish architecture like the Alfama. Correct, if we donot heed the errors of the past we are surely going to repeat them in the future. However becsuse we are a combination of so many nationalities we must honor them all and hope it brings peace. Silva, Costa, Pereira a few others are in my line and I am very happy to be part of them. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" To: Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Margaret, One should always forgive but forget...is forever. We don't want our children to forget. We should have the dignity and the courage to remember because without that we are nothing. It has been said that if we forget history we are going to repeat it. Our memories and our collective memories are the fabric of a family, of a people. That is why they put some much effort and emphasis in making us forget. Where is that village? José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Sent: February 12, 2007 2:36 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Jose and all: A visit to Villa da Vida on the continent would be very refreshing to everyone. Go to mass at the church, in the center, and after mass go through the stalls of merchandise sold by the villagers. The Villa is something to remember because of its history. The Jews were forced to convert and attend the mass occuping several rows of pews. They were not hostile and today they live peacefully with the Christians. They had a beautiful court with a community fountain in the center and the homes today are still very well kept. You can see the traits of their ancestors from the facial features and as merchants they still carry on their trade. There is a home there where on Friday nights the Jews would secretly pray and on Sunday it was mass. The villagers are of mixed races and some beautiful blue eyes. I will never forget my visit and it has been over 30 years. Let us see peaceful discussions on the subject because there is a lesson to be learned from those villagers. Forgive, forget, and blessings to all Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret" To: Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Jose: Read your item with great interest. My question is asked humbly. If the people were so poverty stricken, how did the Jews gain wealth? Did they gain from the mercantile policies? What influence did the Mason have in the independence of Brazil and the church? Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" To: ; Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis. It is common for Madeirans to have a different perspective from those in the rectangle. We can see that just yesterday. Anyway, I too watched Saraiva's program. I happen to like him and his way of doing history. I am told that the Portuguese intelligentsia does not. Let me make it quite clear. Madeira was not a poor island! In the 15th and 16th centuries we were very rich. Rich enough to finance the tragic Moroccan policy of the crown (keeping indefensible forts in the coast) and the expeditions down the African coast. Sugar brought great fortunes to Madeira. The point we need to make is that we were made impoverished by centralist, imperial mercantile policies which eventually lead as an example to Brazilian independence. It is true that we had very bad years, decades! These were made much worse because there was never any investment in any infrastructure for centuries. In good time the money left, in bad times we starved or emigrated! If we stole, we stole our money! Dr. Alberto Vieira is a very capable historian and very precise in his research. Something that leaves a lot to be desired in Saraiva. Vieira does not give opinions. He has the facts. On the Jews. King Manuel didn't really expel the Jews. They stayed. The flat earth society officially believes what they believe. It doesn't make them right. Long after Manuel died they were extricating money from Jews in Madeira. This went up to 1640. The Jewish people have survived worst oppressions but they never stopped being Jews. In Belmonte they never did! In fact, in Portugal there is a growing movement of Ben-anussim returning to the fold. They did not disappear. They are still us. Portuguese can be whatever they want to be. That is not my business. And by the way, it is not anybody's business who is a Jew either. (Well, unless you are the Chief Rabbi in Jerusalem). Personally, I still don't know the difference between a Portuguese and a Gallician or a Castillian. True this is a low blow. I am not American, I am Canadian. I am not sure we are fond of anybody, but in this new world we cherish freedom and the struggle to be free. We are countries of great ideas and great dreams. We are open societies with all of its imperfections. Much like Portugal in its heyday. I think Madeirans of the Diaspora need to know that much research needs to be done in this area of how we became a people and our common history while in these islands for the last 500 years. It is always a pleasure to exchange ideas with you Luis. Hopefully we don't drive people to boredom too much. I know that if you watch Saraiva you can't be bored! José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis K W Sent: February 10, 2007 8:26 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear All «Habilitando», someone who qualifies for something (to be a priest, a lawyer, a noble...). Dear Pat. Of course the subject is touchy. We are used to say that our ancestors are PORTUGUESE. And the truth is: even those Jews from which we all descend, were PORTUGUESE. Besides, the portuguese DON'T FEEL JEWS. They feel Portuguese. Do you feel German? Or Moor? Or Italian? It is most likely that every portuguese descendant has German (visigoth, etc.), Moor, or Roman ancestors. What about all the thousands of slaves that came to Portugal in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries (and I mean, not only the black African slaves, but also those who came from Asia)? Do you have an ancestor son of an unknown MOTHER? My guess is that she probably was a (black, asian, etc.) slave... Why then so much talk about the Jews? Is it to forget all the others? :-)) For instance: I have ONE NEW-CHRISTIAN among my 16.384 13xgrandparents. Her name is (was) Aldonça Gramaxo, born in Portimao in 1554. Her grandfather was a new-christian who married an old-christian Gramaxo woman (Ines G., born ca 1505). Some people (mostly from the US) would find this enough to say they ARE Jews. :-) But all we know is that her grandfather was a new-christian!! And what about all the other 16.383 portuguese 13xgrandparents?!? I also have an ancestor who is said to be a new-christian, living in the 12th century. But this one could be a Moor... :-) (Rui Capom, or Rui Fernandes Capom), Pizarro says "Rui Capão( or Capom)", almoxarife of D.Urraca; LL (LL42X7) by Conde D. Pedro, says that Rui Capon was a new-christian, having changed his name when he was Baptized. We all know that most portuguese descend from people of many different "races". That's what makes us portuguese. So, my question is: why are americans so fond of Jews?!? Why not of the Moors, who had a great civilization, as the Jews never had?? By the way: did you know that the Califs of southern iberia (Al-Andalus) were under the rule of the Lords of... Bagdad (from circa 750, until circa 929)?!? And now us, dear Jose Fernandes. If the Jews were 25% (!!) of the total population circa 1500's, shouldn't it be much easier to find new-christians among everyone's ancestors?!? No. They never were more than 10-12%. And they were imediately expelled from Portugal when they reached that number (after many spanish Jews arrived in Portugal, expelled from Spain). After the Law of Expulsion, by king D Manuel, Judaism was forbidden (if a Jew was caught he was condemned to death). So, everything you wrote can't be exactly right because, *officially*, there were no Jews in Portugal. :-) There were no taxes or money to extricate "from Jews" because Jews were expelled OR BECAME (new-)CHRISTIANS. On the other hand, there were lots of New-Christians (ex-Jews and ex-Moors) who were protected by several laws by the same King D Manuel. It was (obviously) not against the law to be a new-christian. BUT, there were many n-c who faked to be christians (or accused of faking it). And this was what the Inquisition was fond of: *rich* traders accused of keep practising Judaism... Of course we have Jewish cemiteries all over the country (we also have British cemeteries, etc)... But they are not that old! The funny thing about Madeirans (and Brazilians) is that they keep saying that all the money from taxes went to mainland Portugal. :-)) Historian Jose' Hermano Saraiva said, some months ago, about Brazil (but this is also true for Madeira): 1 most people didn't pay (all) the taxes they should; 2 most of the collected taxes were not declared (hidden) and remained in the pockets of local officials; 3 the taxes were 1/10 or 1/5 of what was declared as profit or revenue. So, most of the money largely remained where it was earned/produced. 4 the taxes that finally arrived in mainland (after all the bribery and robbery) were a little price to pay for the PEOPLE who left Portugal to develop that country (meaning Brazil - and Madeira, i must add). Besides, if Madeira was so poor as it is said, those taxes could not be such a large amount of money. ;-) Luís K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- From: papagaia2 Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the ' itando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ---------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Luis; We were told that the villagers protected the Jews and lived together peacefully in spite of the "witch hunts." To me I thought was a wonderful noble act. There were Jews here that were protected in Catholic churches in Portugal during WWII. They managed to be saved from the enemy and came here where they had a very successful yardage store. One reason that I love being Portuguese. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: <luis_k_w@clix.pt> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo > Margaret, > > (I don't think that anyone got hungry with anyone else) > > Blue eyes sure is not a characteristic of people from the Middle East (Jews, Palestinians, and so forth). Those blue eyes probably came from our germanic ancestors... > > Luis K W > Lisboa-Portugal > > ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- > Jose and all: > > A visit to Villa da Vida on the continent would be very refreshing to > everyone. > Go to mass at the church, in the center, and after mass go through the > stalls of merchandise sold by the villagers. > > The Villa is something to remember because of its history. The Jews were > forced to convert and attend the mass occuping several rows of pews. They > were not hostile and today they live peacefully with the Christians. They > had a beautiful court with a community fountain in the center and the homes > today are still very well kept. You can see the traits of their ancestors > from the > facial features and as merchants they still carry on their trade. There is > a home there where on Friday nights the Jews would secretly pray and on > Sunday it was mass. > > The villagers are of mixed races and some beautiful blue eyes. I will never > forget my visit and it has been over 30 years. > Let us see peaceful discussions on the subject because there is a lesson to > be learned from those villagers. > > Forgive, forget, and blessings to all > > Margaret > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Margaret" marpg2000@comcast.net > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:03 AM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo > > > Jose: > Read your item with great interest. My question is asked humbly. > > If the people were so poverty stricken, how did the Jews gain wealth? > > Did they gain from the mercantile policies? > > What influence did the Mason have in the independence of Brazil and the > church? > > Margaret > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca > To: luis_k_w@clix.pt; prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 7:28 AM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo > > > Dear Luis. > > It is common for Madeirans to have a different perspective from those in the > rectangle. We can see that just yesterday. > > Anyway, I too watched Saraiva's program. I happen to like him and his way of > doing history. I am told that the Portuguese intelligentsia does not. Let me > make it quite clear. Madeira was not a poor island! In the 15th and 16th > centuries we were very rich. Rich enough to finance the tragic Moroccan > policy of the crown (keeping indefensible forts in the coast) and the > expeditions down the African coast. Sugar brought great fortunes to Madeira. > The point we need to make is that we were made impoverished by centralist, > imperial mercantile policies which eventually lead as an example to > Brazilian independence. It is true that we had very bad years, decades! > These were made much worse because there was never any investment in any > infrastructure for centuries. In good time the money left, in bad times we > starved or emigrated! If we stole, we stole our money! > > Dr. Alberto Vieira is a very capable historian and very precise in his > research. Something that leaves a lot to be desired in Saraiva. Vieira does > not give opinions. He has the facts. > > On the Jews. King Manuel didn't really expel the Jews. They stayed. The flat > earth society officially believes what they believe. It doesn't make them > right. Long after Manuel died they were extricating money from Jews in > Madeira. This went up to 1640. The Jewish people have survived worst > oppressions but they never stopped being Jews. In Belmonte they never did! > In fact, in Portugal there is a growing movement of Ben-anussim returning to > the fold. They did not disappear. They are still us. > > Portuguese can be whatever they want to be. That is not my business. And by > the way, it is not anybody's business who is a Jew either. (Well, unless you > are the Chief Rabbi in Jerusalem). Personally, I still don't know the > difference between a Portuguese and a Gallician or a Castillian. True this > is a low blow. > > I am not American, I am Canadian. I am not sure we are fond of anybody, but > in this new world we cherish freedom and the struggle to be free. We are > countries of great ideas and great dreams. We are open societies with all of > its imperfections. Much like Portugal in its heyday. > > I think Madeirans of the Diaspora need to know that much research needs to > be done in this area of how we became a people and our common history while > in these islands for the last 500 years. > > It is always a pleasure to exchange ideas with you Luis. Hopefully we don't > drive people to boredom too much. I know that if you watch Saraiva you can't > be bored! > > José Fernandes > > > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis K W > Sent: February 10, 2007 8:26 AM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo > > Dear All > «Habilitando», someone who qualifies for something (to be a priest, a > lawyer, a noble...). > > Dear Pat. > Of course the subject is touchy. We are used to say that our ancestors are > PORTUGUESE. > And the truth is: even those Jews from which we all descend, were > PORTUGUESE. > > Besides, the portuguese DON'T FEEL JEWS. They feel Portuguese. > > Do you feel German? Or Moor? Or Italian? It is most likely that every > portuguese descendant has German (visigoth, etc.), Moor, or Roman > ancestors. > What about all the thousands of slaves that came to Portugal in the 16th, > 17th and 18th centuries (and I mean, not only the black African slaves, but > also those who came from Asia)? > Do you have an ancestor son of an unknown MOTHER? My guess is that she > probably was a (black, asian, etc.) slave... > Why then so much talk about the Jews? Is it to forget all the others? :-)) > > For instance: I have ONE NEW-CHRISTIAN among my 16.384 13xgrandparents. Her > name is (was) Aldonça Gramaxo, born in Portimao in 1554. Her grandfather > was a new-christian who married an old-christian Gramaxo woman (Ines G., > born ca 1505). > > Some people (mostly from the US) would find this enough to say they ARE > Jews. :-) > > But all we know is that her grandfather was a new-christian!! > And what about all the other 16.383 portuguese 13xgrandparents?!? > > I also have an ancestor who is said to be a new-christian, living in the > 12th century. But this one could be a Moor... :-) > (Rui Capom, or Rui Fernandes Capom), Pizarro says "Rui Capão( or Capom)", > almoxarife of D.Urraca; LL (LL42X7) by Conde D. Pedro, says that Rui Capon > was a new-christian, having changed his name when he was Baptized. > > We all know that most portuguese descend from people of many different > "races". That's what makes us portuguese. > > So, my question is: why are americans so fond of Jews?!? Why not of the > Moors, who had a great civilization, as the Jews never had?? > > By the way: did you know that the Califs of southern iberia (Al-Andalus) > were under the rule of the Lords of... Bagdad (from circa 750, until circa > 929)?!? > > And now us, dear Jose Fernandes. > > If the Jews were 25% (!!) of the total population circa 1500's, shouldn't > it be much easier to find new-christians among everyone's ancestors?!? No. > They never were more than 10-12%. And they were imediately expelled from > Portugal when they reached that number (after many spanish Jews arrived in > Portugal, expelled from Spain). > > After the Law of Expulsion, by king D Manuel, Judaism was forbidden (if a > Jew was caught he was condemned to death). So, everything you wrote can't > be exactly right because, *officially*, there were no Jews in Portugal. :-) > There were no taxes or money to extricate "from Jews" because Jews were > expelled OR BECAME (new-)CHRISTIANS. > > On the other hand, there were lots of New-Christians (ex-Jews and > ex-Moors) who were protected by several laws by the same King D Manuel. > It was (obviously) not against the law to be a new-christian. BUT, there > were many n-c who faked to be christians (or accused of faking it). And > this was what the Inquisition was fond of: *rich* traders accused of keep > practising Judaism... > > Of course we have Jewish cemiteries all over the country (we also have > British cemeteries, etc)... But they are not that old! > > The funny thing about Madeirans (and Brazilians) is that they keep saying > that all the money from taxes went to mainland Portugal. :-)) > Historian Jose' Hermano Saraiva said, some months ago, about Brazil (but > this is also true for Madeira): > 1 most people didn't pay (all) the taxes they should; > 2 most of the collected taxes were not declared (hidden) and remained in > the pockets of local officials; > 3 the taxes were 1/10 or 1/5 of what was declared as profit or revenue. So, > most of the money largely remained where it was earned/produced. > 4 the taxes that finally arrived in mainland (after all the bribery and > robbery) were a little price to pay for the PEOPLE who left Portugal to > develop that country (meaning Brazil - and Madeira, i must add). > > Besides, if Madeira was so poor as it is said, those taxes could not be > such a large amount of money. ;-) > > Luís K W > Lisboa-Portugal > > ---------- > From: papagaia2 > Jose, > > Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is > this > such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received > numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, > because of the articles that are featured on my website. > > As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of > the individuals that were/are buried there? > > The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is > the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? > > For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo > Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my > website > at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles > and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to > the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." > Pat Silva Corbera > California USA > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fernandes, Jose" > Janette, > I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. > > >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his > descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to > extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to > develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of > the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their > representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, > mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all > foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant > Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the > crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or > roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were > caught. > > This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people > and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please > remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our > history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all > taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you > may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! > > Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in > the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, > mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with > Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, > Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was > requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. > > If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese > history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book > on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a > copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some > terms. > Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. > For > example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it > into > context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. > > I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. > That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any > comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see > them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your > ancestor's immigration. > > One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is > that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in > droves? > > Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish > cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The > retaining > wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto > neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. > > I could go on but ... > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun > Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo > > > > Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, > Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana > (1954), > references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time > only > 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought > until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of > 'Families > of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the > daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the > Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will > try to get copies of the books for interest sake. > > Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' > by > Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). > While > I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this > account > is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o > mais > rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que > possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with > records > of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the > person > in question as the ' > > itando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this > document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? > > Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online > for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. > > Thanks, > Janette > > -----Original Message----- > From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo > > > > The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa > (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. > > There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. > Also, > many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was > kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further > impoverished the island. In > > lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there > were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much > said after that. > > I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also > linked > to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that > this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, > I > haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - > Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not > all) > about Madeira was second hand. > > Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. > > Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our > list. > But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I > will send it to you. > > José Fernandes > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ---------- > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------- > > Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de ? 29,90/mês > A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! > > Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Jose: You will find Castelo de Vide north of Portoalegre and there is a major road that leads to it. It is close to the Spansh border and there is a Spa near by. It is great to go on a Portuguese tour for the guides know the history and the historical buildings and you really learn a lot more from them. They are fluent in several languages. We were with a group from Belgium and he communicated very well with them in French and also translated everything for us in English. There were only four Americans in the group. It is important to book the tour before you leave however we were fortunate to join the tour with the aid of the conserge at the hotel. Another area of great interest is Barcelos. The towns people are decendants of the moors and so was our tour guide. They were very poor and in their plaza sold pottery. They would beg however it was done very decreetly and you knew that they had great need. It was interesting to see that they still occupied the town, were of the darker skin, and wore black clothing . They sell many of those roosters of pottery that we all are familiar with. Their merchandize was all of pottery. Maragaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Margaret, One should always forgive but forget...is forever. We don't want our children to forget. We should have the dignity and the courage to remember because without that we are nothing. It has been said that if we forget history we are going to repeat it. Our memories and our collective memories are the fabric of a family, of a people. That is why they put some much effort and emphasis in making us forget. Where is that village? José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Sent: February 12, 2007 2:36 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Jose and all: A visit to Villa da Vida on the continent would be very refreshing to everyone. Go to mass at the church, in the center, and after mass go through the stalls of merchandise sold by the villagers. The Villa is something to remember because of its history. The Jews were forced to convert and attend the mass occuping several rows of pews. They were not hostile and today they live peacefully with the Christians. They had a beautiful court with a community fountain in the center and the homes today are still very well kept. You can see the traits of their ancestors from the facial features and as merchants they still carry on their trade. There is a home there where on Friday nights the Jews would secretly pray and on Sunday it was mass. The villagers are of mixed races and some beautiful blue eyes. I will never forget my visit and it has been over 30 years. Let us see peaceful discussions on the subject because there is a lesson to be learned from those villagers. Forgive, forget, and blessings to all Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret" <marpg2000@comcast.net> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Jose: Read your item with great interest. My question is asked humbly. If the people were so poverty stricken, how did the Jews gain wealth? Did they gain from the mercantile policies? What influence did the Mason have in the independence of Brazil and the church? Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> To: <luis_k_w@clix.pt>; <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis. It is common for Madeirans to have a different perspective from those in the rectangle. We can see that just yesterday. Anyway, I too watched Saraiva's program. I happen to like him and his way of doing history. I am told that the Portuguese intelligentsia does not. Let me make it quite clear. Madeira was not a poor island! In the 15th and 16th centuries we were very rich. Rich enough to finance the tragic Moroccan policy of the crown (keeping indefensible forts in the coast) and the expeditions down the African coast. Sugar brought great fortunes to Madeira. The point we need to make is that we were made impoverished by centralist, imperial mercantile policies which eventually lead as an example to Brazilian independence. It is true that we had very bad years, decades! These were made much worse because there was never any investment in any infrastructure for centuries. In good time the money left, in bad times we starved or emigrated! If we stole, we stole our money! Dr. Alberto Vieira is a very capable historian and very precise in his research. Something that leaves a lot to be desired in Saraiva. Vieira does not give opinions. He has the facts. On the Jews. King Manuel didn't really expel the Jews. They stayed. The flat earth society officially believes what they believe. It doesn't make them right. Long after Manuel died they were extricating money from Jews in Madeira. This went up to 1640. The Jewish people have survived worst oppressions but they never stopped being Jews. In Belmonte they never did! In fact, in Portugal there is a growing movement of Ben-anussim returning to the fold. They did not disappear. They are still us. Portuguese can be whatever they want to be. That is not my business. And by the way, it is not anybody's business who is a Jew either. (Well, unless you are the Chief Rabbi in Jerusalem). Personally, I still don't know the difference between a Portuguese and a Gallician or a Castillian. True this is a low blow. I am not American, I am Canadian. I am not sure we are fond of anybody, but in this new world we cherish freedom and the struggle to be free. We are countries of great ideas and great dreams. We are open societies with all of its imperfections. Much like Portugal in its heyday. I think Madeirans of the Diaspora need to know that much research needs to be done in this area of how we became a people and our common history while in these islands for the last 500 years. It is always a pleasure to exchange ideas with you Luis. Hopefully we don't drive people to boredom too much. I know that if you watch Saraiva you can't be bored! José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis K W Sent: February 10, 2007 8:26 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear All «Habilitando», someone who qualifies for something (to be a priest, a lawyer, a noble...). Dear Pat. Of course the subject is touchy. We are used to say that our ancestors are PORTUGUESE. And the truth is: even those Jews from which we all descend, were PORTUGUESE. Besides, the portuguese DON'T FEEL JEWS. They feel Portuguese. Do you feel German? Or Moor? Or Italian? It is most likely that every portuguese descendant has German (visigoth, etc.), Moor, or Roman ancestors. What about all the thousands of slaves that came to Portugal in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries (and I mean, not only the black African slaves, but also those who came from Asia)? Do you have an ancestor son of an unknown MOTHER? My guess is that she probably was a (black, asian, etc.) slave... Why then so much talk about the Jews? Is it to forget all the others? :-)) For instance: I have ONE NEW-CHRISTIAN among my 16.384 13xgrandparents. Her name is (was) Aldonça Gramaxo, born in Portimao in 1554. Her grandfather was a new-christian who married an old-christian Gramaxo woman (Ines G., born ca 1505). Some people (mostly from the US) would find this enough to say they ARE Jews. :-) But all we know is that her grandfather was a new-christian!! And what about all the other 16.383 portuguese 13xgrandparents?!? I also have an ancestor who is said to be a new-christian, living in the 12th century. But this one could be a Moor... :-) (Rui Capom, or Rui Fernandes Capom), Pizarro says "Rui Capão( or Capom)", almoxarife of D.Urraca; LL (LL42X7) by Conde D. Pedro, says that Rui Capon was a new-christian, having changed his name when he was Baptized. We all know that most portuguese descend from people of many different "races". That's what makes us portuguese. So, my question is: why are americans so fond of Jews?!? Why not of the Moors, who had a great civilization, as the Jews never had?? By the way: did you know that the Califs of southern iberia (Al-Andalus) were under the rule of the Lords of... Bagdad (from circa 750, until circa 929)?!? And now us, dear Jose Fernandes. If the Jews were 25% (!!) of the total population circa 1500's, shouldn't it be much easier to find new-christians among everyone's ancestors?!? No. They never were more than 10-12%. And they were imediately expelled from Portugal when they reached that number (after many spanish Jews arrived in Portugal, expelled from Spain). After the Law of Expulsion, by king D Manuel, Judaism was forbidden (if a Jew was caught he was condemned to death). So, everything you wrote can't be exactly right because, *officially*, there were no Jews in Portugal. :-) There were no taxes or money to extricate "from Jews" because Jews were expelled OR BECAME (new-)CHRISTIANS. On the other hand, there were lots of New-Christians (ex-Jews and ex-Moors) who were protected by several laws by the same King D Manuel. It was (obviously) not against the law to be a new-christian. BUT, there were many n-c who faked to be christians (or accused of faking it). And this was what the Inquisition was fond of: *rich* traders accused of keep practising Judaism... Of course we have Jewish cemiteries all over the country (we also have British cemeteries, etc)... But they are not that old! The funny thing about Madeirans (and Brazilians) is that they keep saying that all the money from taxes went to mainland Portugal. :-)) Historian Jose' Hermano Saraiva said, some months ago, about Brazil (but this is also true for Madeira): 1 most people didn't pay (all) the taxes they should; 2 most of the collected taxes were not declared (hidden) and remained in the pockets of local officials; 3 the taxes were 1/10 or 1/5 of what was declared as profit or revenue. So, most of the money largely remained where it was earned/produced. 4 the taxes that finally arrived in mainland (after all the bribery and robbery) were a little price to pay for the PEOPLE who left Portugal to develop that country (meaning Brazil - and Madeira, i must add). Besides, if Madeira was so poor as it is said, those taxes could not be such a large amount of money. ;-) Luís K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- From: papagaia2 Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the ' itando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ---------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Luis K W, On my previous posting I had entered my comments within the text of your post, using the color blue text option... sorry it didn't post that way. Luis, when I think or refer to someone being a Jew, it's like saying "that someone is a Catholic," or a "Protestant." It's their religious preference, and not their nationality/race. Luis, As you wrote, is what I think, "Nowadays, portuguese Jews are simply Portuguese people following the jewish religion. It's completely different." "And again, most Portuguese of the 21th century feel like descending from Portuguese people (whatever that means), and not from "Jews" from before the 15th century (or moors from the 10th century, or visigoths from the 7th century, or romans from the 5th century, etc.). Is that clear now?" Perfectly clear... hopefully this explanation will limit the times someone writes "my name is Pereira, how will I find my jewish roots?". LOLOLOL" You also wrote - "Ok. My thoughts came out probably because i'm a Libra (Balança in Portuguese). :-)," As a very young child my Dad often read to me from the publication "Lunario Perpetuo," 1927 Perceira Antonio Maria Pereira - Rua Augusta, 44 A 54 Lisboa... Here's what it said about the male individual born under the "signo de Libra," " O varao que nascer debaixo do dominio d'este signo sera honrado e venturoso no que emprehender, e cuidadoso em servir aos amigos. Sera inclinado a ir a terras extranhas, aonde Ihe ira melhor que na sua patria, e sera homem do bom entendimento. Finalmente, tera com que passar a vida, padecera infortunios e trabalhos." And Luis, my comments came out because I'm an Aires (Carneiro in Portuguese)Represented by the lamb, the ram, and the meek person. A person born under this sign is often thought of as being the balance between the "strong," and the "meek." ;-)). Prima Pat

Patricia Corbera <papagaia2@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:19:12 -0800 (PST) From: Patricia Corbera <papagaia2@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo To: luis_k_w@clix.pt Dear Luis K W, I had entered my comments using the color blue text option... sorry it didn't post that way. Luis, when I think or refer to someone being a Jew, it's like saying "that someone is a Catholic," or a "Protestant." It's their religious preference, and not their race. Luis, As you wrote, is what I think, "Nowadays, portuguese Jews are simply Portuguese people following the jewish religion. It's completely different." "And again, most Portuguese of the 21th century feel like descending from Portuguese people (whatever that means), and not from "Jews" from before the 15th century (or moors from the 10th century, or visigoths from the 7th century, or romans from the 5th century, etc.). Is that clear now?" Perfectly clear... hopefully this explanation will limit the times someone writes "my name is Pereira, how will I find my jewish roots?". LOLOLOL" You wrote - "Ok. My thoughts came out probably because i'm a Libra (Balança in Portuguese). :-)," As a very young child my Dad often read to me from the publication "Lunario Perpetuo," 1927 Perceira Antonio Maria Pereira - Rua Augusta, 44 A 54 Lisboa... Here's what it said about the male individual born under the "signo de Libra," " O varao que nascer debaixo do dominio d'este signo sera honrado e venturoso no que emprehender, e cuidadoso em servir aos amigos. Sera inclinado a ir a terras extranhas, aonde Ihe ira melhor que na sua patria, e sera homem do bom entendimento. Finalmente, tera com que passar a vida, padecera infortunios e trabalhos." And Luis, my comments came out because I'm an Aires (Carneiro in Portuguese)Represented by the lamb, the ram, and the meek person. A person born under this sign is often thought of as being the balance between the "strong," and the "meek." ;-)). Prima Pat luis_k_w@clix.pt wrote: Dear Pat, It's not easy (technically) to FIND your comments in my original text. I'll try to give you a global answer. Why is it touchy? First, let me ask you a question: When you say "Jew" do you mean a different race or a different faith/religion from the nowadays average portuguese? BOTH, isn't it? I'm sure that the average portuguese is either catholic or atheists, and he doesn't feel specially attached to any people from the Middle East - that we see like people loving to be at war with each other... In the US you may stop in a street of New Bedford and shout: "Hey! You are all Portuguese!". They probably are (recent descendants of Portuguese immigrants), and they will smile at you. But it's not the same when you move to Portugal. We've already agreed that most Portuguese descend from different peoples, with different cultures and religions. Try to shout, in the middle of any portuguese village the following truth: "you are all irakis (moors)", or germans (visigoths), or italians (romans), or black africans (slaves), or... I think they will call some good doctors to put you away for a while. :-) Some of the questions you've made came from the confusion of the word Jew. For me, back in the 15th century (and before), a Jew was someone from a different race, culture, language, religion, they dressed differently from others, lived in different neighbourhoods, payed different taxes, had their own laws and leaders. Those "portuguese" jews used to say from themselves that they were people "de nação" /from (another/Jewish) nation. No, back then, they were not like the common portuguese people. [And please note that before the 15th, "nationality" wasn't such a strong issue as it is now (C.Colon appears in several documents as "portuguese" just because he was living and working in Portugal - well... or probably not). :-)] Nowadays, portuguese Jews are simply Portuguese people following the jewish religion. It's completely different. And again, most Portuguese of the 21th century feel like descending from Portuguese people (whatever that means), and not from "Jews" from before the 15th century (or moors from the 10th century, or visigoths from the 7th century, or romans from the 5th century, etc.). Is that clear now? I never said I dislike Jews. What I notice is a large amount of information about some notorious Jews (all the names you wrote are well known by most of us), and nothing, or almost nothing about all the others races/peoples that lived in Portugal. And I do not understand why you wrote "why is this subject not discussed?"? We keep doing it all the time!!!! I go nuts everytime someone writes "my name is Pereira, how will I find my jewish roots?". LOLOLOL Ok. My thoughts came out probably because i'm a Libra (Balança in Portuguese). :-) And yes. It seems to me that Gramacho and Gramaxo have the same origin... Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- My Dearest Primo Luis K W, I have added my comments/notations within the text of your posting below, indicated by +++. Prima Pat California USA Luis K W luis_k_w@clix.pt wrote: Dear All «Habilitando», someone who qualifies for something (to be a priest, a lawyer, a noble...). Dear Pat. Of course the subject is touchy. We are used to say that our ancestors are PORTUGUESE. +++Hello My Dear Primo Luis K W, +++I was hoping that you would enter into this discussion. And the truth is: even those Jews from which we all descend, were PORTUGUESE. +++I agree, so once again, why is it such a touchy subject? Besides, the portuguese DON'T FEEL JEWS. They feel Portuguese. +++Are you saying that if one practices a different faith, then one does not feel/consider oneself being Portuguese? Do you think that our New-Christian ancestors no longer considered themselves Portuguese? +++What about our Portuguese ancestors from Madeira that followed Dr. Robert Reid Kalley and became Protestants, did they no longer consider themselves Portuguese? Do you feel German? Or Moor? Or Italian? It is most likely that every portuguese descendant has German (visigoth, etc.), Moor, or Roman ancestors. +++Either I'm missing your point or you are misunderstanding my question...To learn about one's New-Christian ancestry does not change the fact that these ancestors came from all walks of life, and ethnic backgrounds. Why would one not want to know about ie. the German, the Italian or the Moorish ancestor that became possibly the first generation to practice a different faith than their father? What about all the thousands of slaves that came to Portugal in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries (and I mean, not only the black African slaves, but also those who came from Asia)? Do you have an ancestor son of an unknown MOTHER? My guess is that she probably was a (black, asian, etc.) slave... Why then so much talk about the Jews? Is it to forget all the others? :-)) +++This is a very valid point... so let's open up the discussion about these "others." What were their customs, what religion did they practice, etc. It's not enough to simply say "I'm Portuguese," and leave it at that. For instance: I have ONE NEW-CHRISTIAN among my 16.384 13xgrandparents. Her name is (was) Aldonça Gramaxo, born in Portimao in 1554. Her grandfather was a new-christian who married an old-christian Gramaxo woman (Ines G., born ca 1505). +++ Luis, is Gramaxo the same as Gramacho? I have Gramacho ancestry in Madeira. Some people (mostly from the US) would find this enough to say they ARE Jews. :-) +++ Luis, you're missing the entire point of my question. I want to know why it's a touchy subject. I'm not asking this question as an American because I want to be a Jew... and what's this reference to "mostly from the US? But all we know is that her grandfather was a new-christian!! And what about all the other 16.383 portuguese 13xgrandparents?!? +++I think that's a wonderful "find," just learning that one of your ancestors was a "New Christian," now you can try and locate a reference to one of your ancestors being a Muslim, or any other faith. I also have an ancestor who is said to be a new-christian, living in the 12th century. But this one could be a Moor... :-) +++What about Abraham Zacuto and his family? This 15th century author of "Almanach Perpetuum" published in Leiria in 1496. The expulsion decree of 1492 brought them to Portugal, even though he belonged to a family of French origin, which had emigrated to Castille in the 14th. century? Was he no longer French? What about Pedro Nunes, a Portuguese mathematician and cosmographer-major, author of "Tratado da Esfera," published in Lisbon in 1537... he was a first generation "New-Christian." He was born in Alcacer do Sal? Still a Portuguese. Gracia Nasi (b. 1510) A first generation crypto-Jew she was born in Portugal and christened Beatriz de Luna. In 1528 she married Francisco Mendes, a New-Christian. Many of our ancestors converted to the Jewish faith, but this fact did not wipe out their ancestral roots. (Rui Capom, or Rui Fernandes Capom), Pizarro says "Rui Capão( or Capom)", almoxarife of D.Urraca; LL (LL42X7) by Conde D. Pedro, says that Rui Capon was a new-christian, having changed his name when he was Baptized. We all know that most portuguese descend from people of many different "races". That's what makes us portuguese. +++Yes we are descended from people of many different "races," and these "people," practiced many different faiths. So why is this subject not discussed? So, my question is: why are americans so fond of Jews?!? Why not of the Moors, who had a great civilization, as the Jews never had?? +++Can I turn your question around and ask " what's with the dislike of the Jews? Why not mention the historical figures that helped to shape of world as we know it today... Abraham Zacuto - author - who published in 1496 the tables which provided the principal base for Portuguese navigation at the end of the 15th century and the beginning of the 16th century. Respected as "Mathematician to the King." Guedelha- Master Guedlha - Doctor and astrologer to both King Duarte and King Afonso V. Guedelha Palacano - loyal supporter of Prince Henry. He financed a number of overseas expeditions. Isaac Abravanel - Doctor and philosopher. Made huge loans to King Afonso V. Jaime de Maiorca - famed cartographer and constructor of Maiorcan compasses, came to Portugal at the request of Prince Henry to teach Portuguese cartographers. Samuel Gacon - A member of the Jewish community in Faro. The first Portugeuse incunabula was printed on his press in 1487. Antonio Jose da Silva - known as "the Jew," born in Rio de Janeiro, son of a wealthy colonial family, also one of the victims of the Inquisition. "One of the great Portuguese playwrights of the 18th. century. Menasseh Ben Israel - 1604-1657 Baptized Manuel Dias Soeiro, as a child his family went to Holland to escape the Inquisition. He was given the Jewish name of Menasseh Ben Israel, and later became a rabbi. He introduced Hebraic-Portuguese printing in Amsterdam. And the lists goes on... Portuguese Jews have contributed greatly... Source: "The Jews in Portugal" ICEP Tourism Information Department Av. 5 de Outubro, 101 1000 LIsboa Portugal Why does this all boil down to "why are Americans so fond of Jews?" What would your reaction/comments be if my question was about one being of the Muslim faith, and even better if one had actually linked with Muhammad the Prophet? By the way: did you know that the Califs of southern iberia (Al-Andalus) were under the rule of the Lords of... Bagdad (from circa 750, until circa 929)?!? I have read about the Al Andalus, (Islamic Spain) being organized under the civil and religious leadership of the caliph of Damascus. Jews continued to play an important role in commerce, scholarship and the professions during this time. In 756 the Arab-dominated Umayyard dynasty at Damascus was overthrown by the Abbasids, who moved the caliphate to Baghdad. In 756, the exiled Umayyard prince Abd ar Rahman I establish himself as the 1st. emir omiada de Cordoba. He founded the Caliphate of Cordoba. Abd ar Rahman is my 36th Great Grandfather (if one can accurately traced one's ancestry back that far. We're at the mercy that documented history is correct) Pat California, USA I'll let Jose Fernandes add his comments to your posting below... ;-)) And now us, dear Jose Fernandes. If the Jews were 25% (!!) of the total population circa 1500's, shouldn't it be much easier to find new-christians among everyone's ancestors?!? No. They never were more than 10-12%. And they were imediately expelled from Portugal when they reached that number (after many spanish Jews arrived in Portugal, expelled from Spain). After the Law of Expulsion, by king D Manuel, Judaism was forbidden (if a Jew was caught he was condemned to death). So, everything you wrote can't be exactly right because, *officially*, there were no Jews in Portugal. :-) There were no taxes or money to extricate "from Jews" because Jews were expelled OR BECAME (new-)CHRISTIANS. On the other hand, there were lots of New-Christians (ex-Jews and ex-Moors) who were protected by several laws by the same King D Manuel. It was (obviously) not against the law to be a new-christian. BUT, there were many n-c who faked to be christians (or accused of faking it). And this was what the Inquisition was fond of: *rich* traders accused of keep practising Judaism... Of course we have Jewish cemiteries all over the country (we also have British cemeteries, etc)... But they are not that old! The funny thing about Madeirans (and Brazilians) is that they keep saying that all the money from taxes went to mainland Portugal. :-)) Historian Jose' Hermano Saraiva said, some months ago, about Brazil (but this is also true for Madeira): 1 most people didn't pay (all) the taxes they should; 2 most of the collected taxes were not declared (hidden) and remained in the pockets of local officials; 3 the taxes were 1/10 or 1/5 of what was declared as profit or revenue. So, most of the money largely remained where it was earned/produced. 4 the taxes that finally arrived in mainland (after all the bribery and robbery) were a little price to pay for the PEOPLE who left Portugal to develop that country (meaning Brazil - and Madeira, i must add). Besides, if Madeira was so poor as it is said, those taxes could not be such a large amount of money. ;-) Luís K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- From: papagaia2 Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the ' itando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes -------------

Margaret, What nationality were these Jews that you observed in 1979 that still resided in this village with the Portuguese? What language did they speak ? Did you observe the Portuguese attending the synagogue or some other house of faith? Pat Margaret <marpg2000@comcast.net> wrote: Jose: Castelo de Vide is south of Lisbon. My notation is that it was a Jewish settlement in the 15th century. The synagogue stilll in use (1979) and the Jews still occupy the village along with the Portuguese. Very busy village square for marketing right in front of the church. Many tables set up with merchandise. Moorish influence in the steep streets and narrow paths. Houses typical of moorish architecture like the Alfama. Correct, if we donot heed the errors of the past we are surely going to repeat them in the future. However becsuse we are a combination of so many nationalities we must honor them all and hope it brings peace. Silva, Costa, Pereira a few others are in my line and I am very happy to be part of them. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" To: Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Margaret, One should always forgive but forget...is forever. We don't want our children to forget. We should have the dignity and the courage to remember because without that we are nothing. It has been said that if we forget history we are going to repeat it. Our memories and our collective memories are the fabric of a family, of a people. That is why they put some much effort and emphasis in making us forget. Where is that village? José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Sent: February 12, 2007 2:36 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Jose and all: A visit to Villa da Vida on the continent would be very refreshing to everyone. Go to mass at the church, in the center, and after mass go through the stalls of merchandise sold by the villagers. The Villa is something to remember because of its history. The Jews were forced to convert and attend the mass occuping several rows of pews. They were not hostile and today they live peacefully with the Christians. They had a beautiful court with a community fountain in the center and the homes today are still very well kept. You can see the traits of their ancestors from the facial features and as merchants they still carry on their trade. There is a home there where on Friday nights the Jews would secretly pray and on Sunday it was mass. The villagers are of mixed races and some beautiful blue eyes. I will never forget my visit and it has been over 30 years. Let us see peaceful discussions on the subject because there is a lesson to be learned from those villagers. Forgive, forget, and blessings to all Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret" To: Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Jose: Read your item with great interest. My question is asked humbly. If the people were so poverty stricken, how did the Jews gain wealth? Did they gain from the mercantile policies? What influence did the Mason have in the independence of Brazil and the church? Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" To: ; Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis. It is common for Madeirans to have a different perspective from those in the rectangle. We can see that just yesterday. Anyway, I too watched Saraiva's program. I happen to like him and his way of doing history. I am told that the Portuguese intelligentsia does not. Let me make it quite clear. Madeira was not a poor island! In the 15th and 16th centuries we were very rich. Rich enough to finance the tragic Moroccan policy of the crown (keeping indefensible forts in the coast) and the expeditions down the African coast. Sugar brought great fortunes to Madeira. The point we need to make is that we were made impoverished by centralist, imperial mercantile policies which eventually lead as an example to Brazilian independence. It is true that we had very bad years, decades! These were made much worse because there was never any investment in any infrastructure for centuries. In good time the money left, in bad times we starved or emigrated! If we stole, we stole our money! Dr. Alberto Vieira is a very capable historian and very precise in his research. Something that leaves a lot to be desired in Saraiva. Vieira does not give opinions. He has the facts. On the Jews. King Manuel didn't really expel the Jews. They stayed. The flat earth society officially believes what they believe. It doesn't make them right. Long after Manuel died they were extricating money from Jews in Madeira. This went up to 1640. The Jewish people have survived worst oppressions but they never stopped being Jews. In Belmonte they never did! In fact, in Portugal there is a growing movement of Ben-anussim returning to the fold. They did not disappear. They are still us. Portuguese can be whatever they want to be. That is not my business. And by the way, it is not anybody's business who is a Jew either. (Well, unless you are the Chief Rabbi in Jerusalem). Personally, I still don't know the difference between a Portuguese and a Gallician or a Castillian. True this is a low blow. I am not American, I am Canadian. I am not sure we are fond of anybody, but in this new world we cherish freedom and the struggle to be free. We are countries of great ideas and great dreams. We are open societies with all of its imperfections. Much like Portugal in its heyday. I think Madeirans of the Diaspora need to know that much research needs to be done in this area of how we became a people and our common history while in these islands for the last 500 years. It is always a pleasure to exchange ideas with you Luis. Hopefully we don't drive people to boredom too much. I know that if you watch Saraiva you can't be bored! José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis K W Sent: February 10, 2007 8:26 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear All «Habilitando», someone who qualifies for something (to be a priest, a lawyer, a noble...). Dear Pat. Of course the subject is touchy. We are used to say that our ancestors are PORTUGUESE. And the truth is: even those Jews from which we all descend, were PORTUGUESE. Besides, the portuguese DON'T FEEL JEWS. They feel Portuguese. Do you feel German? Or Moor? Or Italian? It is most likely that every portuguese descendant has German (visigoth, etc.), Moor, or Roman ancestors. What about all the thousands of slaves that came to Portugal in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries (and I mean, not only the black African slaves, but also those who came from Asia)? Do you have an ancestor son of an unknown MOTHER? My guess is that she probably was a (black, asian, etc.) slave... Why then so much talk about the Jews? Is it to forget all the others? :-)) For instance: I have ONE NEW-CHRISTIAN among my 16.384 13xgrandparents. Her name is (was) Aldonça Gramaxo, born in Portimao in 1554. Her grandfather was a new-christian who married an old-christian Gramaxo woman (Ines G., born ca 1505). Some people (mostly from the US) would find this enough to say they ARE Jews. :-) But all we know is that her grandfather was a new-christian!! And what about all the other 16.383 portuguese 13xgrandparents?!? I also have an ancestor who is said to be a new-christian, living in the 12th century. But this one could be a Moor... :-) (Rui Capom, or Rui Fernandes Capom), Pizarro says "Rui Capão( or Capom)", almoxarife of D.Urraca; LL (LL42X7) by Conde D. Pedro, says that Rui Capon was a new-christian, having changed his name when he was Baptized. We all know that most portuguese descend from people of many different "races". That's what makes us portuguese. So, my question is: why are americans so fond of Jews?!? Why not of the Moors, who had a great civilization, as the Jews never had?? By the way: did you know that the Califs of southern iberia (Al-Andalus) were under the rule of the Lords of... Bagdad (from circa 750, until circa 929)?!? And now us, dear Jose Fernandes. If the Jews were 25% (!!) of the total population circa 1500's, shouldn't it be much easier to find new-christians among everyone's ancestors?!? No. They never were more than 10-12%. And they were imediately expelled from Portugal when they reached that number (after many spanish Jews arrived in Portugal, expelled from Spain). After the Law of Expulsion, by king D Manuel, Judaism was forbidden (if a Jew was caught he was condemned to death). So, everything you wrote can't be exactly right because, *officially*, there were no Jews in Portugal. :-) There were no taxes or money to extricate "from Jews" because Jews were expelled OR BECAME (new-)CHRISTIANS. On the other hand, there were lots of New-Christians (ex-Jews and ex-Moors) who were protected by several laws by the same King D Manuel. It was (obviously) not against the law to be a new-christian. BUT, there were many n-c who faked to be christians (or accused of faking it). And this was what the Inquisition was fond of: *rich* traders accused of keep practising Judaism... Of course we have Jewish cemiteries all over the country (we also have British cemeteries, etc)... But they are not that old! The funny thing about Madeirans (and Brazilians) is that they keep saying that all the money from taxes went to mainland Portugal. :-)) Historian Jose' Hermano Saraiva said, some months ago, about Brazil (but this is also true for Madeira): 1 most people didn't pay (all) the taxes they should; 2 most of the collected taxes were not declared (hidden) and remained in the pockets of local officials; 3 the taxes were 1/10 or 1/5 of what was declared as profit or revenue. So, most of the money largely remained where it was earned/produced. 4 the taxes that finally arrived in mainland (after all the bribery and robbery) were a little price to pay for the PEOPLE who left Portugal to develop that country (meaning Brazil - and Madeira, i must add). Besides, if Madeira was so poor as it is said, those taxes could not be such a large amount of money. ;-) Luís K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- From: papagaia2 Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the ' itando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ---------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Jose: Castelo de Vide is south of Lisbon. My notation is that it was a Jewish settlement in the 15th century. The synagogue stilll in use (1979) and the Jews still occupy the village along with the Portuguese. Very busy village square for marketing right in front of the church. Many tables set up with merchandise. Moorish influence in the steep streets and narrow paths. Houses typical of moorish architecture like the Alfama. Correct, if we donot heed the errors of the past we are surely going to repeat them in the future. However becsuse we are a combination of so many nationalities we must honor them all and hope it brings peace. Silva, Costa, Pereira a few others are in my line and I am very happy to be part of them. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Margaret, One should always forgive but forget...is forever. We don't want our children to forget. We should have the dignity and the courage to remember because without that we are nothing. It has been said that if we forget history we are going to repeat it. Our memories and our collective memories are the fabric of a family, of a people. That is why they put some much effort and emphasis in making us forget. Where is that village? José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Sent: February 12, 2007 2:36 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Jose and all: A visit to Villa da Vida on the continent would be very refreshing to everyone. Go to mass at the church, in the center, and after mass go through the stalls of merchandise sold by the villagers. The Villa is something to remember because of its history. The Jews were forced to convert and attend the mass occuping several rows of pews. They were not hostile and today they live peacefully with the Christians. They had a beautiful court with a community fountain in the center and the homes today are still very well kept. You can see the traits of their ancestors from the facial features and as merchants they still carry on their trade. There is a home there where on Friday nights the Jews would secretly pray and on Sunday it was mass. The villagers are of mixed races and some beautiful blue eyes. I will never forget my visit and it has been over 30 years. Let us see peaceful discussions on the subject because there is a lesson to be learned from those villagers. Forgive, forget, and blessings to all Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret" <marpg2000@comcast.net> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Jose: Read your item with great interest. My question is asked humbly. If the people were so poverty stricken, how did the Jews gain wealth? Did they gain from the mercantile policies? What influence did the Mason have in the independence of Brazil and the church? Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> To: <luis_k_w@clix.pt>; <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis. It is common for Madeirans to have a different perspective from those in the rectangle. We can see that just yesterday. Anyway, I too watched Saraiva's program. I happen to like him and his way of doing history. I am told that the Portuguese intelligentsia does not. Let me make it quite clear. Madeira was not a poor island! In the 15th and 16th centuries we were very rich. Rich enough to finance the tragic Moroccan policy of the crown (keeping indefensible forts in the coast) and the expeditions down the African coast. Sugar brought great fortunes to Madeira. The point we need to make is that we were made impoverished by centralist, imperial mercantile policies which eventually lead as an example to Brazilian independence. It is true that we had very bad years, decades! These were made much worse because there was never any investment in any infrastructure for centuries. In good time the money left, in bad times we starved or emigrated! If we stole, we stole our money! Dr. Alberto Vieira is a very capable historian and very precise in his research. Something that leaves a lot to be desired in Saraiva. Vieira does not give opinions. He has the facts. On the Jews. King Manuel didn't really expel the Jews. They stayed. The flat earth society officially believes what they believe. It doesn't make them right. Long after Manuel died they were extricating money from Jews in Madeira. This went up to 1640. The Jewish people have survived worst oppressions but they never stopped being Jews. In Belmonte they never did! In fact, in Portugal there is a growing movement of Ben-anussim returning to the fold. They did not disappear. They are still us. Portuguese can be whatever they want to be. That is not my business. And by the way, it is not anybody's business who is a Jew either. (Well, unless you are the Chief Rabbi in Jerusalem). Personally, I still don't know the difference between a Portuguese and a Gallician or a Castillian. True this is a low blow. I am not American, I am Canadian. I am not sure we are fond of anybody, but in this new world we cherish freedom and the struggle to be free. We are countries of great ideas and great dreams. We are open societies with all of its imperfections. Much like Portugal in its heyday. I think Madeirans of the Diaspora need to know that much research needs to be done in this area of how we became a people and our common history while in these islands for the last 500 years. It is always a pleasure to exchange ideas with you Luis. Hopefully we don't drive people to boredom too much. I know that if you watch Saraiva you can't be bored! José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis K W Sent: February 10, 2007 8:26 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear All «Habilitando», someone who qualifies for something (to be a priest, a lawyer, a noble...). Dear Pat. Of course the subject is touchy. We are used to say that our ancestors are PORTUGUESE. And the truth is: even those Jews from which we all descend, were PORTUGUESE. Besides, the portuguese DON'T FEEL JEWS. They feel Portuguese. Do you feel German? Or Moor? Or Italian? It is most likely that every portuguese descendant has German (visigoth, etc.), Moor, or Roman ancestors. What about all the thousands of slaves that came to Portugal in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries (and I mean, not only the black African slaves, but also those who came from Asia)? Do you have an ancestor son of an unknown MOTHER? My guess is that she probably was a (black, asian, etc.) slave... Why then so much talk about the Jews? Is it to forget all the others? :-)) For instance: I have ONE NEW-CHRISTIAN among my 16.384 13xgrandparents. Her name is (was) Aldonça Gramaxo, born in Portimao in 1554. Her grandfather was a new-christian who married an old-christian Gramaxo woman (Ines G., born ca 1505). Some people (mostly from the US) would find this enough to say they ARE Jews. :-) But all we know is that her grandfather was a new-christian!! And what about all the other 16.383 portuguese 13xgrandparents?!? I also have an ancestor who is said to be a new-christian, living in the 12th century. But this one could be a Moor... :-) (Rui Capom, or Rui Fernandes Capom), Pizarro says "Rui Capão( or Capom)", almoxarife of D.Urraca; LL (LL42X7) by Conde D. Pedro, says that Rui Capon was a new-christian, having changed his name when he was Baptized. We all know that most portuguese descend from people of many different "races". That's what makes us portuguese. So, my question is: why are americans so fond of Jews?!? Why not of the Moors, who had a great civilization, as the Jews never had?? By the way: did you know that the Califs of southern iberia (Al-Andalus) were under the rule of the Lords of... Bagdad (from circa 750, until circa 929)?!? And now us, dear Jose Fernandes. If the Jews were 25% (!!) of the total population circa 1500's, shouldn't it be much easier to find new-christians among everyone's ancestors?!? No. They never were more than 10-12%. And they were imediately expelled from Portugal when they reached that number (after many spanish Jews arrived in Portugal, expelled from Spain). After the Law of Expulsion, by king D Manuel, Judaism was forbidden (if a Jew was caught he was condemned to death). So, everything you wrote can't be exactly right because, *officially*, there were no Jews in Portugal. :-) There were no taxes or money to extricate "from Jews" because Jews were expelled OR BECAME (new-)CHRISTIANS. On the other hand, there were lots of New-Christians (ex-Jews and ex-Moors) who were protected by several laws by the same King D Manuel. It was (obviously) not against the law to be a new-christian. BUT, there were many n-c who faked to be christians (or accused of faking it). And this was what the Inquisition was fond of: *rich* traders accused of keep practising Judaism... Of course we have Jewish cemiteries all over the country (we also have British cemeteries, etc)... But they are not that old! The funny thing about Madeirans (and Brazilians) is that they keep saying that all the money from taxes went to mainland Portugal. :-)) Historian Jose' Hermano Saraiva said, some months ago, about Brazil (but this is also true for Madeira): 1 most people didn't pay (all) the taxes they should; 2 most of the collected taxes were not declared (hidden) and remained in the pockets of local officials; 3 the taxes were 1/10 or 1/5 of what was declared as profit or revenue. So, most of the money largely remained where it was earned/produced. 4 the taxes that finally arrived in mainland (after all the bribery and robbery) were a little price to pay for the PEOPLE who left Portugal to develop that country (meaning Brazil - and Madeira, i must add). Besides, if Madeira was so poor as it is said, those taxes could not be such a large amount of money. ;-) Luís K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- From: papagaia2 Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the ' itando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ---------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Margaret, (I don't think that anyone got hungry with anyone else) Blue eyes sure is not a characteristic of people from the Middle East (Jews, Palestinians, and so forth). Those blue eyes probably came from our germanic ancestors... Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose and all: A visit to Villa da Vida on the continent would be very refreshing to everyone. Go to mass at the church, in the center, and after mass go through the stalls of merchandise sold by the villagers. The Villa is something to remember because of its history. The Jews were forced to convert and attend the mass occuping several rows of pews. They were not hostile and today they live peacefully with the Christians. They had a beautiful court with a community fountain in the center and the homes today are still very well kept. You can see the traits of their ancestors from the facial features and as merchants they still carry on their trade. There is a home there where on Friday nights the Jews would secretly pray and on Sunday it was mass. The villagers are of mixed races and some beautiful blue eyes. I will never forget my visit and it has been over 30 years. Let us see peaceful discussions on the subject because there is a lesson to be learned from those villagers. Forgive, forget, and blessings to all Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret" marpg2000@comcast.net To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:03 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Jose: Read your item with great interest. My question is asked humbly. If the people were so poverty stricken, how did the Jews gain wealth? Did they gain from the mercantile policies? What influence did the Mason have in the independence of Brazil and the church? Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca To: luis_k_w@clix.pt; prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis. It is common for Madeirans to have a different perspective from those in the rectangle. We can see that just yesterday. Anyway, I too watched Saraiva's program. I happen to like him and his way of doing history. I am told that the Portuguese intelligentsia does not. Let me make it quite clear. Madeira was not a poor island! In the 15th and 16th centuries we were very rich. Rich enough to finance the tragic Moroccan policy of the crown (keeping indefensible forts in the coast) and the expeditions down the African coast. Sugar brought great fortunes to Madeira. The point we need to make is that we were made impoverished by centralist, imperial mercantile policies which eventually lead as an example to Brazilian independence. It is true that we had very bad years, decades! These were made much worse because there was never any investment in any infrastructure for centuries. In good time the money left, in bad times we starved or emigrated! If we stole, we stole our money! Dr. Alberto Vieira is a very capable historian and very precise in his research. Something that leaves a lot to be desired in Saraiva. Vieira does not give opinions. He has the facts. On the Jews. King Manuel didn't really expel the Jews. They stayed. The flat earth society officially believes what they believe. It doesn't make them right. Long after Manuel died they were extricating money from Jews in Madeira. This went up to 1640. The Jewish people have survived worst oppressions but they never stopped being Jews. In Belmonte they never did! In fact, in Portugal there is a growing movement of Ben-anussim returning to the fold. They did not disappear. They are still us. Portuguese can be whatever they want to be. That is not my business. And by the way, it is not anybody's business who is a Jew either. (Well, unless you are the Chief Rabbi in Jerusalem). Personally, I still don't know the difference between a Portuguese and a Gallician or a Castillian. True this is a low blow. I am not American, I am Canadian. I am not sure we are fond of anybody, but in this new world we cherish freedom and the struggle to be free. We are countries of great ideas and great dreams. We are open societies with all of its imperfections. Much like Portugal in its heyday. I think Madeirans of the Diaspora need to know that much research needs to be done in this area of how we became a people and our common history while in these islands for the last 500 years. It is always a pleasure to exchange ideas with you Luis. Hopefully we don't drive people to boredom too much. I know that if you watch Saraiva you can't be bored! José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis K W Sent: February 10, 2007 8:26 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear All «Habilitando», someone who qualifies for something (to be a priest, a lawyer, a noble...). Dear Pat. Of course the subject is touchy. We are used to say that our ancestors are PORTUGUESE. And the truth is: even those Jews from which we all descend, were PORTUGUESE. Besides, the portuguese DON'T FEEL JEWS. They feel Portuguese. Do you feel German? Or Moor? Or Italian? It is most likely that every portuguese descendant has German (visigoth, etc.), Moor, or Roman ancestors. What about all the thousands of slaves that came to Portugal in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries (and I mean, not only the black African slaves, but also those who came from Asia)? Do you have an ancestor son of an unknown MOTHER? My guess is that she probably was a (black, asian, etc.) slave... Why then so much talk about the Jews? Is it to forget all the others? :-)) For instance: I have ONE NEW-CHRISTIAN among my 16.384 13xgrandparents. Her name is (was) Aldonça Gramaxo, born in Portimao in 1554. Her grandfather was a new-christian who married an old-christian Gramaxo woman (Ines G., born ca 1505). Some people (mostly from the US) would find this enough to say they ARE Jews. :-) But all we know is that her grandfather was a new-christian!! And what about all the other 16.383 portuguese 13xgrandparents?!? I also have an ancestor who is said to be a new-christian, living in the 12th century. But this one could be a Moor... :-) (Rui Capom, or Rui Fernandes Capom), Pizarro says "Rui Capão( or Capom)", almoxarife of D.Urraca; LL (LL42X7) by Conde D. Pedro, says that Rui Capon was a new-christian, having changed his name when he was Baptized. We all know that most portuguese descend from people of many different "races". That's what makes us portuguese. So, my question is: why are americans so fond of Jews?!? Why not of the Moors, who had a great civilization, as the Jews never had?? By the way: did you know that the Califs of southern iberia (Al-Andalus) were under the rule of the Lords of... Bagdad (from circa 750, until circa 929)?!? And now us, dear Jose Fernandes. If the Jews were 25% (!!) of the total population circa 1500's, shouldn't it be much easier to find new-christians among everyone's ancestors?!? No. They never were more than 10-12%. And they were imediately expelled from Portugal when they reached that number (after many spanish Jews arrived in Portugal, expelled from Spain). After the Law of Expulsion, by king D Manuel, Judaism was forbidden (if a Jew was caught he was condemned to death). So, everything you wrote can't be exactly right because, *officially*, there were no Jews in Portugal. :-) There were no taxes or money to extricate "from Jews" because Jews were expelled OR BECAME (new-)CHRISTIANS. On the other hand, there were lots of New-Christians (ex-Jews and ex-Moors) who were protected by several laws by the same King D Manuel. It was (obviously) not against the law to be a new-christian. BUT, there were many n-c who faked to be christians (or accused of faking it). And this was what the Inquisition was fond of: *rich* traders accused of keep practising Judaism... Of course we have Jewish cemiteries all over the country (we also have British cemeteries, etc)... But they are not that old! The funny thing about Madeirans (and Brazilians) is that they keep saying that all the money from taxes went to mainland Portugal. :-)) Historian Jose' Hermano Saraiva said, some months ago, about Brazil (but this is also true for Madeira): 1 most people didn't pay (all) the taxes they should; 2 most of the collected taxes were not declared (hidden) and remained in the pockets of local officials; 3 the taxes were 1/10 or 1/5 of what was declared as profit or revenue. So, most of the money largely remained where it was earned/produced. 4 the taxes that finally arrived in mainland (after all the bribery and robbery) were a little price to pay for the PEOPLE who left Portugal to develop that country (meaning Brazil - and Madeira, i must add). Besides, if Madeira was so poor as it is said, those taxes could not be such a large amount of money. ;-) Luís K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- From: papagaia2 Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the ' itando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ---------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/

Margaret, Going back to the 1500's... There were POOR Jews too! Some Jews were slaves (ok... servants, employees) of other Jews. Many Jews were craftmen (goldsmith, etc.) and merchants (while the other Madeirans were working the fields), allowing them to be more protected when anything went wrong in agriculture. Many new-christian (jewish) merchants - the richest - got their wealth with the traffic of black slaves from Africa. Most of these (the richest), were persecuted by Inquisition. So, most of them left Portugal and went to Holland, where they kept their businesses and got richer (holland was becoming a capitalist society). Brazil got a funny independance. Prince Pedro, the future king of Portugal decided to remain in Brazil when his father the king (and the Crown Government) asked him to go back to mainland Portugal. He then shouted "liberdade ou morte" (freedom or death) or something of the kind. It seems that Prince Pedro, Emperor of Brazil and later King Pedro IV of Portugal was a Mason. The role of Masonry in the independance of Brazil? Probably the same that allowed the Portuguese to get rid of our "saviours", the British... did the Masons do it alone, or their role was none? Luis ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose: Read your item with great interest. My question is asked humbly. If the people were so poverty stricken, how did the Jews gain wealth? Did they gain from the mercantile policies? What influence did the Mason have in the independence of Brazil and the church? Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca To: luis_k_w@clix.pt; prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis. It is common for Madeirans to have a different perspective from those in the rectangle. We can see that just yesterday. Anyway, I too watched Saraiva's program. I happen to like him and his way of doing history. I am told that the Portuguese intelligentsia does not. Let me make it quite clear. Madeira was not a poor island! In the 15th and 16th centuries we were very rich. Rich enough to finance the tragic Moroccan policy of the crown (keeping indefensible forts in the coast) and the expeditions down the African coast. Sugar brought great fortunes to Madeira. The point we need to make is that we were made impoverished by centralist, imperial mercantile policies which eventually lead as an example to Brazilian independence. It is true that we had very bad years, decades! These were made much worse because there was never any investment in any infrastructure for centuries. In good time the money left, in bad times we starved or emigrated! If we stole, we stole our money! Dr. Alberto Vieira is a very capable historian and very precise in his research. Something that leaves a lot to be desired in Saraiva. Vieira does not give opinions. He has the facts. On the Jews. King Manuel didn't really expel the Jews. They stayed. The flat earth society officially believes what they believe. It doesn't make them right. Long after Manuel died they were extricating money from Jews in Madeira. This went up to 1640. The Jewish people have survived worst oppressions but they never stopped being Jews. In Belmonte they never did! In fact, in Portugal there is a growing movement of Ben-anussim returning to the fold. They did not disappear. They are still us. Portuguese can be whatever they want to be. That is not my business. And by the way, it is not anybody's business who is a Jew either. (Well, unless you are the Chief Rabbi in Jerusalem). Personally, I still don't know the difference between a Portuguese and a Gallician or a Castillian. True this is a low blow. I am not American, I am Canadian. I am not sure we are fond of anybody, but in this new world we cherish freedom and the struggle to be free. We are countries of great ideas and great dreams. We are open societies with all of its imperfections. Much like Portugal in its heyday. I think Madeirans of the Diaspora need to know that much research needs to be done in this area of how we became a people and our common history while in these islands for the last 500 years. It is always a pleasure to exchange ideas with you Luis. Hopefully we don't drive people to boredom too much. I know that if you watch Saraiva you can't be bored! José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis K W Sent: February 10, 2007 8:26 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear All «Habilitando», someone who qualifies for something (to be a priest, a lawyer, a noble...). Dear Pat. Of course the subject is touchy. We are used to say that our ancestors are PORTUGUESE. And the truth is: even those Jews from which we all descend, were PORTUGUESE. Besides, the portuguese DON'T FEEL JEWS. They feel Portuguese. Do you feel German? Or Moor? Or Italian? It is most likely that every portuguese descendant has German (visigoth, etc.), Moor, or Roman ancestors. What about all the thousands of slaves that came to Portugal in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries (and I mean, not only the black African slaves, but also those who came from Asia)? Do you have an ancestor son of an unknown MOTHER? My guess is that she probably was a (black, asian, etc.) slave... Why then so much talk about the Jews? Is it to forget all the others? :-)) For instance: I have ONE NEW-CHRISTIAN among my 16.384 13xgrandparents. Her name is (was) Aldonça Gramaxo, born in Portimao in 1554. Her grandfather was a new-christian who married an old-christian Gramaxo woman (Ines G., born ca 1505). Some people (mostly from the US) would find this enough to say they ARE Jews. :-) But all we know is that her grandfather was a new-christian!! And what about all the other 16.383 portuguese 13xgrandparents?!? I also have an ancestor who is said to be a new-christian, living in the 12th century. But this one could be a Moor... :-) (Rui Capom, or Rui Fernandes Capom), Pizarro says "Rui Capão( or Capom)", almoxarife of D.Urraca; LL (LL42X7) by Conde D. Pedro, says that Rui Capon was a new-christian, having changed his name when he was Baptized. We all know that most portuguese descend from people of many different "races". That's what makes us portuguese. So, my question is: why are americans so fond of Jews?!? Why not of the Moors, who had a great civilization, as the Jews never had?? By the way: did you know that the Califs of southern iberia (Al-Andalus) were under the rule of the Lords of... Bagdad (from circa 750, until circa 929)?!? And now us, dear Jose Fernandes. If the Jews were 25% (!!) of the total population circa 1500's, shouldn't it be much easier to find new-christians among everyone's ancestors?!? No. They never were more than 10-12%. And they were imediately expelled from Portugal when they reached that number (after many spanish Jews arrived in Portugal, expelled from Spain). After the Law of Expulsion, by king D Manuel, Judaism was forbidden (if a Jew was caught he was condemned to death). So, everything you wrote can't be exactly right because, *officially*, there were no Jews in Portugal. :-) There were no taxes or money to extricate "from Jews" because Jews were expelled OR BECAME (new-)CHRISTIANS. On the other hand, there were lots of New-Christians (ex-Jews and ex-Moors) who were protected by several laws by the same King D Manuel. It was (obviously) not against the law to be a new-christian. BUT, there were many n-c who faked to be christians (or accused of faking it). And this was what the Inquisition was fond of: *rich* traders accused of keep practising Judaism... Of course we have Jewish cemiteries all over the country (we also have British cemeteries, etc)... But they are not that old! The funny thing about Madeirans (and Brazilians) is that they keep saying that all the money from taxes went to mainland Portugal. :-)) Historian Jose' Hermano Saraiva said, some months ago, about Brazil (but this is also true for Madeira): 1 most people didn't pay (all) the taxes they should; 2 most of the collected taxes were not declared (hidden) and remained in the pockets of local officials; 3 the taxes were 1/10 or 1/5 of what was declared as profit or revenue. So, most of the money largely remained where it was earned/produced. 4 the taxes that finally arrived in mainland (after all the bribery and robbery) were a little price to pay for the PEOPLE who left Portugal to develop that country (meaning Brazil - and Madeira, i must add). Besides, if Madeira was so poor as it is said, those taxes could not be such a large amount of money. ;-) Luís K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------- From: papagaia2 Jose, Thank you for your posting on Jews in our Portuguese ancestry. Why is this such a "touchy," subject with so many Portuguese people? I have received numerous negative e-mails, and negative postings to my website guest book, because of the articles that are featured on my website. As for the Jewish cemetery in Funchal, is there a listing of the names of the individuals that were/are buried there? The book that you referred to (published by the Madeira Archives) what is the title and can it be ordered online from the Madeira Archives? For those individuals that are interested in this subject, Prof. Eduardo Mayone Dias has granted me permission to feature his articles on my website at www.geocities.com/papagaia2. These articles, along with other articles and websites on the subject, can be found by scanning down the homepage to the section titled "Our Portuguese Jewish Connection." Pat Silva Corbera California USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" Janette, I see you haven't received an answer on your question. So I will try. >From what I know, at one time during the reign of Dom Manuel and his descendants , the Portuguese crown needed money so one of the ways was to extricate it from Jews living in Portugal. In order to do that they had to develop a list. It was easy. Jews could have been at the time up to 25% of the total population! In Madeira, the crown sent to the islands their representative to collect this money. Often, the Madeiran authorities, mostly the Council of Funchal refused to go along. They wanted all foreigners out of Madeira, but surprisingly foreigners also meant Portuguese or Spaniards or all of those born outside Madeira. Anyway, the crown insisted, and by then it was Portuguese/Spanish crown, and a list or roll of Madeiran Jews was developed and they paid dearly once they were caught. This debilitated the Madeiran economy, it further impoverished our people and it took away doctors, engineers and others who were educated. Please remember that this money was taken away to Lisbon. In fact throughout our history, Dr. Alberto Vieira estimates that (Until 1975) only 25% of all taxes raised in Madeira stayed in Madeira to pay government costs. Now you may wander how come your ancestors left Madeira! Most of these Jews lived as Catholics, some were priests or had priests in the family. They were imprisoned and sent to Lisbon to be tried. Some, mostly traders left for Holland. Sugar was king then, and the trade with Brazil, in the early 1600's under Dutch rule, was important. By the way, Madeira for the most part refused to stop trade with Brazil as it was requested by the Portuguese/Spanish crown. If you want to know more about this tragic, shameful time of Portuguese history and how it affected Madeira and later its economy, there is a book on the roll of Jews which is published by the Madeira Archives. I have a copy which I continuously review because I am not familiar with some terms. Most of the book is lists and it includes terms used by the Inquisition. For example you mention 'Habilitando". Without knowing being able to put it into context, it seems to me as qualifying, as meeting the terms. I am aware that the Inquisition affected all of the Portuguese Empire. That's fine. I am currently interested only in Madeira. I welcome any comments contrary to what I have expressed here. It would be nice to see them! Nonetheless, this is our history and it puts a context for your ancestor's immigration. One of the questions that many can't answer (most who aren't Madeiran) is that Madeirans love their land dearly, then why did they leave it in droves? Anyway, for those interested in Jews in Madeira, there is still a Jewish cemetery in Funchal. When I last visited it was in bad shape. The retaining wall was falling into the sea. The cemetery is located in the Lazareto neighbourhood, east of the Church of Socorro, in the Santa Maria parish. I could go on but ... José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janette Chun Sent: February 5, 2007 5:23 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Thanks Jose. Yes, the author of this article, 'A Ilha do Porto Santo, Aspectos etnologicos, economicos e etnograficos' Por Cesar Pestana (1954), references 'Ilhas do Zarco' in his short description of how at one time only 18 men and 7 women were left. I didn't really give this too much thought until recently when I was reading through the pages sent to me of 'Families of Maderia and Porto Santo', and there were a couple of entries where the daughters are listed and then note is made that they were kidnapped by the Moors. Quite fascinating, but understandably a sensitive topic. I will try to get copies of the books for interest sake. Now I have another question - I was going through subsídios Genealógicos' by Dr. Eugénio de Andrea da Cunha e Freitas (posted on the nesos site). While I understand the Portuguese I'm reading I'm not 100% sure what this account is for. It prefaces with " O cartório da Inquisição e todos o sabem, o mais rico manancial de informações historico-genealogicas que possuímos....madeirenses". So I thought perhaps I was dealing with records of the Inquisition, but it doesn't appear so. It also refers to the person in question as the ' itando'. Can anyone shed some light on what this document actually is and what 'habilitando' means? Also as a matter of interest - nesos has all the death certificates online for Sao Sebastiao, Camara dos Lobos from 1860 - 1910. Thanks, Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo The sea between Madeira Island and Porto Santo is called the Travessa (crossing). It can be very rough and many have died in the past. There were many attacks by Moorish pirates in the 16 and 17 centuries. Also, many Madeirans took part in raids on the Moroccan coast. Some of it was kidnappings. People could be released with payments. That further impoverished the island. In lhas de Zarco, I have read that at one time according to the author, there were no more than 2 dozen Porto Santo islanders left. But there isn't much said after that. I don't know if it was ever accepted as fact. I believe that is also linked to the many women captives returned to the island pregnant. I suspect that this is an area that many would rather not talk about. On the other hand, I haven't seen too many writings on this. Gaspar Frutuoso in his 2nd book - Saudades da Terra, may comment on that but some of his writing (if not all) about Madeira was second hand. Janette, it is my opinion that this area could have more research done. Anyway, I am not sure if it is appropriate to send attachments on our list. But I do have some nice pictures of Porto Santo. If you send your e-mail I will send it to you. José Fernandes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ---------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/