Well that is very cool. I usually do not answer questions like the one you posted because I have so many people on my database it would take me years to type them but from S. Vicente I hardly have any. I do have an online database with my ancestry at http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=luisbeal&I11.x=51&I11.y=5 everyone is welcome to check it out. Have a great day. Luis Beal Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:44:03 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject - S. Vicente Hi Luis.....so we are not only related thru Pedro Bras Teixeira, but also thru Alvaro Gomes and Maria Dias. They are my 8th great-grandfather. Actually according to my PFA files, we are related many many times.... thru Inacio Caldeira and Maria Dias we are 5th cousins 3 times removed, , thru Goncalo Costa and Maria Ponte, we are 7th cousins 2 times removed, thru Jose Gomes Duarte and Isabel castro de Faria we are 7th cousins 2 times removed, thru Tome Goncalves and Joana Goncalves we are 8th cousins 4 times removed, thru pedro Bras Teixeira and Antonia Caldeira we are 8th cousins 4 times removed!!!!!! We definitely shall meet someday, because we are very much related thats for sure :) Take care for now dear cousin! Leandro -----Original Message----- From: luisbeal@yahoo.com To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 1:32 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject - S. Vicente I have an Alvaro Gomes who married Maria Dias back in 1694 in S. Antao. Both were born in Sao Vicente and so were their parents, Francisco de Gois and Maria Francisca (Alvaros' parents), and Domingos Gomes and Anto'nia Dias (Maria's parents). That seems to be it for me from Sao Vicente. Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:02:21 AM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject Hey folks...how about a change of subject?????? Anyone here that belongs from families that comes from Sao Vicente?? If so....which surnames??? Thank you Leandro ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html

Hi Pat...i have some Gomes-Garcez in my family...so mabe you can help me to expand my family tree :) 1) Amaro Gomes garces married in 1678 in S Vicente with Antonia Caldeira (antonia is related to me) 2) Domingos Gomes Garces - son of Manuel Pacheco and Ana Rodrigues. Domingos married in 22 jun 1653 with Antonia Dias. He is my 9th great-grandfather 3) Joao Gomes Garcez - married in (???) with Maria Costa. They are the parents of Maria Pestana (this maria Pestana had a son that married in 1715, so probably this Joao Garcez was married mid 1600's or so!) 4) Alferes Manuel Gomes Garcez - Married Constanca Viveiros. Thir daugther Antonia Viveiros Married in 1720 one of my relatives, Joao Teixeira Brasao. All these names comes from Sao Vicente Thank you Leandro -----Original Message----- From: papagaia2@sbcglobal.net To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 5:45 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject - S. Vicente I have an Alvaro Gomes who married Maria Goncalves both from Sao Vicente, this couple is my 9th Great Grandparents. Their daughter, Margarida Gomes Garcez(Garces) b. abt 1590 Sao Vicente, married Sebastiao Dias de Lira b. bef 1590, they married 08 Jun 1610 Book 578 Pg 33v, Sao Vicente, Madeira. Sebastiao was also known as Sebastiao Rodriguese de Lira. More on Sebastiao and his family can be found on page 183 "Familias da Ilhas da Madeira e Porto Santo" Titulo: Liras. Their son Capitao Bartolomeu Velosa de Lira married Agueda Cesar Abreu Andrade on 30 May 1662, in the Calheta. This is a double line for me... another son of Sebastiao Dias de Lira and Margarida Gomes Garcez(Garces), named Vicente de Lira Veloso b. abt 1610 Sao Vicente, married on 04 Feb 1652 in the Estreito da Calheta to Maria Ferreira she was born on 04 Oct 1626 Estreito da Calheta... Vicente is my paternal great grandfather and his brother Bartolomeu noted above is my maternal great grandfather. That's what I have for Sao Vicente... Pat Silva Corbera . Luis Beal <luisbeal@yahoo.com> wrote: I have an Alvaro Gomes who married Maria Dias back in 1694 in S. Antao. Both were born in Sao Vicente and so were their parents, Francisco de Gois and Maria Francisca (Alvaros' parents), and Domingos Gomes and Anto'nia Dias (Maria's parents). That seems to be it for me from Sao Vicente. Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:02:21 AM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject Hey folks...how about a change of subject?????? Anyone here that belongs from families that comes from Sao Vicente?? If so....which surnames??? Thank you Leandro ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

Hi Luis.....so we are not only related thru Pedro Bras Teixeira, but also thru Alvaro Gomes and Maria Dias. They are my 8th great-grandfather. Actually according to my PFA files, we are related many many times.... thru Inacio Caldeira and Maria Dias we are 5th cousins 3 times removed, , thru Goncalo Costa and Maria Ponte, we are 7th cousins 2 times removed, thru Jose Gomes Duarte and Isabel castro de Faria we are 7th cousins 2 times removed, thru Tome Goncalves and Joana Goncalves we are 8th cousins 4 times removed, thru pedro Bras Teixeira and Antonia Caldeira we are 8th cousins 4 times removed!!!!!! We definitely shall meet someday, because we are very much related thats for sure :) Take care for now dear cousin! Leandro -----Original Message----- From: luisbeal@yahoo.com To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 1:32 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject - S. Vicente I have an Alvaro Gomes who married Maria Dias back in 1694 in S. Antao. Both were born in Sao Vicente and so were their parents, Francisco de Gois and Maria Francisca (Alvaros' parents), and Domingos Gomes and Anto'nia Dias (Maria's parents). That seems to be it for me from Sao Vicente. Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:02:21 AM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject Hey folks...how about a change of subject?????? Anyone here that belongs from families that comes from Sao Vicente?? If so....which surnames??? Thank you Leandro ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

I have an Alvaro Gomes who married Maria Goncalves both from Sao Vicente, this couple is my 9th Great Grandparents. Their daughter, Margarida Gomes Garcez(Garces) b. abt 1590 Sao Vicente, married Sebastiao Dias de Lira b. bef 1590, they married 08 Jun 1610 Book 578 Pg 33v, Sao Vicente, Madeira. Sebastiao was also known as Sebastiao Rodriguese de Lira. More on Sebastiao and his family can be found on page 183 "Familias da Ilhas da Madeira e Porto Santo" Titulo: Liras. Their son Capitao Bartolomeu Velosa de Lira married Agueda Cesar Abreu Andrade on 30 May 1662, in the Calheta. This is a double line for me... another son of Sebastiao Dias de Lira and Margarida Gomes Garcez(Garces), named Vicente de Lira Veloso b. abt 1610 Sao Vicente, married on 04 Feb 1652 in the Estreito da Calheta to Maria Ferreira she was born on 04 Oct 1626 Estreito da Calheta... Vicente is my paternal great grandfather and his brother Bartolomeu noted above is my maternal great grandfather. That's what I have for Sao Vicente... Pat Silva Corbera . Luis Beal <luisbeal@yahoo.com> wrote: I have an Alvaro Gomes who married Maria Dias back in 1694 in S. Antao. Both were born in Sao Vicente and so were their parents, Francisco de Gois and Maria Francisca (Alvaros' parents), and Domingos Gomes and Anto'nia Dias (Maria's parents). That seems to be it for me from Sao Vicente. Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:02:21 AM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject Hey folks...how about a change of subject?????? Anyone here that belongs from families that comes from Sao Vicente?? If so....which surnames??? Thank you Leandro ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have an Alvaro Gomes who married Maria Dias back in 1694 in S. Antao. Both were born in Sao Vicente and so were their parents, Francisco de Gois and Maria Francisca (Alvaros' parents), and Domingos Gomes and Anto'nia Dias (Maria's parents). That seems to be it for me from Sao Vicente. Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:02:21 AM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject Hey folks...how about a change of subject?????? Anyone here that belongs from families that comes from Sao Vicente?? If so....which surnames??? Thank you Leandro ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com

I was speaking from experience not generalizing. I was born and raised in Portugal, I left when I was 21. In my hometown there were several bands of gypsies who lived in different parts of town. They all wore, looked, and yes, smelled, very much the same. They loved gathering around the fire on the streets. I remember them since the time I was 4 years old. When they became more prosperous and bought houses they still built fires in their front yards and gathered around them. Their smell came from the combination of fire and body odor, and it was still the same after living in houses with plumbing. I have traveled to different parts of Portugal and they looked no different than those from my hometown. I was there two years ago in the street market in Carcavelos and I could easily tell you which people were gypsies. I have never heard them being refered to as Roma though. --"If I repeated to you, as truth, comments that were heard in France or in Canada in the 60's about the Portuguese, would you like it?"-- No, I would not, but if you related to me experiences you had in France or Canada with portuguese people in the 60's I would not see anything wrong with it. It really does not bother me if you considered my words racist for they were not written that way. I'm sorry you did though, for all I did was relate an experience from my life. :) And I did not consider Luis KW's words racist either for what he was describing to us was nothing new to me, except the drug part that happened after I left. Sometimes one just has to know the situation to fully understand the exchange of words. I understood Luis and he understood me, although we live in two different continents we share the same cultural experiences and his words made sense. You are right, we should have another list where we could trade thoughts and ideas about the culture, history, politics, food, etc of Portugal. I can get one going if no one else wants to. If anyone wants to then e-mail me privately so we do not repeat the request to rootsweb. Hope the weather warms up for you. Luis Beal PS- I do not control the list, I monitor it to make sure the language is clean and the content appropriate. Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:39:09 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo I am sorry but generalizations are never true. Some Roma are unwashed, but so are some Canadians, Americans, French and so on. Some got rich from drug trade, but so did some Portuguese, Italian, Algerian etc. What truth is there? That some individuals are bad, and do things that we don't like? If I repeated to you, as truth, comments that were heard in France or in Canada in the 60's about the Portuguese, would you like it? Well, I wouldn't. I would say exactly the same thing. Importantly, I refer you to my comments. I said, with due respect, that the impact of your comments were racist. You, I don't know. You can define yourself, but I will not. I agree that one could make any comments and relate them to Madeira. But I believe that we in the Diaspora would benefit more about dialogue and sharing about our history, our customs, and our struggles. But as you make it quite clear in a later posting, we know who controls this list, and I will follow the rules. Perhaps a reminder from time is always a good idea. Just a suggestion, because there are a lot of things affecting our people that I would like to talk about! Finally, language often transmits more than words. As of now whether I like it or not, Madeira is not part of Portugal. It is Portugal. The Madeiran President, Dr. Alberto Joao Jardim, has said that we are not an appendix of anything. We are what we decide to be and others will not decide that for us. After 550 years that may trouble some, but that's the truth or is it that in politics and war the truth is always the first victim? José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis Beal Sent: February 14, 2007 3:43 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo There is a difference between racism and the truth. I am not a racist and my comments, or Luis KW's, were not racist they were merely a description of how gypsies behave and their achievements over the last 30 years. It is a pity that anytime someone mentions something, whether good or bad, about another race or culture it is immediately viewed as racist. There are different obvious behaviors to each culture and race and stating their good and bad parts is NOT racism. Trashing them or putting them down IS racism. Stating facts IS NOT, it is the way life is, the way they want it to be. If you believe what we said speaks volumes about our country you are forgetting that the same situation exists in most of the southern European countries where gypsies have settled, and these countries will have similar stories to tell. We can end this discussion right here and go back to Madeira's genealogy topics (although there are probably gypsies in Madeira so it is not off topic) :) Just one more thing, you will eventually find out that since Madeira is part of Portugal talking about things that happened in the mainland (history) is not off topic. They share the same history and a lot of the same people :) Have a happy valentines day! Luis Beal Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 9:51:16 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Some of these comments and the ones leading to this posting are not appropriate. With due respect, I don't question intent at this moment, but the impact of all your comments are racist. The Roma people have suffered tremendously in Europe. They continued to be discriminated in all Europe, in some countries more than others. A half a million were slaughtered in the Holocaust. They deserve more than you unfortunate comments. Don't get me wrong, I believe that you are expressing what a sizeable number of Portuguese would say. It doesn't make it right, but it speaks volumes about your country. I too am critical about my country, Canada. Just to save you time. This topic has nothing to do with Madeira other than show you , as madeiran Diaspora, a glimpse of attitudes of the "motherland" then and even now. We have a snowstorm here and I am house-bound. I have refused to get into this debate but unfortunately and obviously I don't any better! Jose Fernandez ________________________________ From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: Wed 2/14/2007 8:52 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis B. I agree with you. Let me add something else. Don't get me wrong. I do not want you to think I'm some kind of racist or anything. My opinion is: those gypsy "traders" got rich because they never payed taxes at street markets. Most of them DO NOT WANT to own stores because, this way, it's not easy to check how much they own/sell/etc., and they keep away from taxes. They became rich, all right. And they love showing it. That's why they (men and women) wear all the gold they can. In the last 20 years, many gypsies went to prison for a much more profitable trade: they became DRUG dealers. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Gypsies is exactly what I thought of too when I read your description. You say they begged discreetly, how long ago was that? When I was a young girl in the 70's they were indeed poor, wearing black clothing, never bathing, and they were always in small groups, at least where I lived in the suburbs of Lisbon, but they soon became rich selling all kinds of junk at the street markets. When I left Portugal in the late 80's they owned clothing stores, beautiful houses and cars, but still wore black and did not bathe :( They sell everything and anything they think you'll pay money for. I bet if you go back now they will be very different. Luis Beal ------------- Dear Margaret, I am sorry (once again), but I got to tell you that your description of Barcelos is just like I wrote that I've only seen almost-naked red indians and some very fat black people in the US. :-) Anyway, I've been smiling with your description of Barcelos (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelos) for the last couple of minutes. People from Barcelos are descendants of the Moors? Probably from those who were butchered in the late 900's (over 1000 years ago)? LOL People from Minho (northern Portugal) is known for being the living proof of the visigoths (and other germanic peoples) domination in the 7th and 8th century, until de arrival of the moors. Many still have blond hair and blue eyes. My guess is that those dark skin people, begging and wearing black clothes were GYPSIES! (or Romanians) LOLLoLuis ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose: You will find Castelo de Vide north of Portoalegre and there is a major road that leads to it. It is close to the Spansh border and there is a Spa near by. It is great to go on a Portuguese tour for the guides know the history and the historical buildings and you really learn a lot more from them. They are fluent in several languages. We were with a group from Belgium and he communicated very well with them in French and also translated everything for us in English. There were only four Americans in the group. It is important to book the tour before you leave however we were fortunate to join the tour with the aid of the conserge at the hotel. Another area of great interest is Barcelos. The towns people are decendants of the moors and so was our tour guide. They were very poor and in their plaza sold pottery. They would beg however it was done very decreetly and you knew that they had great need. It was interesting to see that they still occupied the town, were of the darker skin, and wore black clothing . They sell many of those roosters of pottery that we all are familiar with. Their merchandize was all of pottery. Maragaret ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de EUR 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! 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Hey folks...how about a change of subject?????? Anyone here that belongs from families that comes from Sao Vicente?? If so....which surnames??? Thank you Leandro

Sorry, this was to be shared with the whole list. José -----Original Message----- From: Fernandes, Jose Sent: February 15, 2007 11:12 AM To: 'luis_k_w@clix.pt' Subject: RE: RE: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Luis K. You have been generous in your comments. I am not sure I am "absolutely right" about anything. But I do make a commitment to not accept generalizations and any tendency to dehumanize people. As humans we have done that too many times in our history, and inevitably that leads to tragic events. As I walked through the extermination camps of Poland, I searched for answers that I never got. How did this happen? Where was God in all of this? At Treblinka, I heard the chirping of birds. I saw the beauty of wild flowers. Yet, I knew I was in a terrible place. It was easy to come to the conclusion that these were monsters and not humans that perpetrated this. That would alleviate all of our guilty feelings. But you know, Luis, these people, the perpetrators were people like us. Some were teachers, some were musicians, some were engineers, and some were Catholic, others Lutheran. What made them do what they did? And what about the witnesses who did nothing? Going back to our list, I just encourage us all to be more accepting, to avoid generalizations, to be less exclusive. Of course, we all have opinions. In a democratic society we have a right to expresses those opinions, but that freedom does not excuse us from ensuring that the impact of our words does not dehumanize anyone. Luis, I am grateful to you, for understanding that I was not calling you any names. We don't know each other, and therefore that would be very unfortunate in my part. Anyway, enough "pontificating"! To your number 2. Language as you know is both a tool of freedom and a tool of oppression. Language also changes with time. Those with power could name others. Sometimes that became inappropriate with time. For example in Canada we no longer refer to the northern aboriginal people as Eskimo. They prefer to be called Inuit. We should and have honoured that desire. For the "gypsies", we have in this part of the world, have been given the indication that leaders in the Roma community would like to name themselves. Roma, Romani and other terms are in use. Some Roma, would not insist on that. Paulo Freire, used to say that you can tell a man he is free, but if he does not believe it, he will never be. As for Canada, I know that you know more than you want to let out. However, I will bite. I will quote the bible that encourages us no to throw stones if we live in a glass house. Therefore any comments on Portugal obviously come from a certain bias. There are politics and history in there. Mea culpa. No country is perfect. No people or nation is perfect. But at times we have to have a debate! Finally, I firmly believe that in those times in history where Portugal was generous and open there was great progress and prosperity. We as Madeirans benefited from that. But, in others we have suffered tremendously and your country has not done any better. It is sunny and very cold (-21 Celsius). Have a nice day in your part of the world. José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: luis_k_w@clix.pt [mailto:luis_k_w@clix.pt] Sent: February 14, 2007 3:03 PM To: Fernandes, Jose; prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: RE: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Jose', YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! What I wrote *sounds* like discrimitation, racism, and so forth. But I am (not)sorry to say that I am not the right target for that kind of accusation. We were talking about what the portuguese people from Barcelos looked like. Margaret described them as "dark skinned", wearing black clothing, selling pottery in street markets, looking like their ancestors the moors. :-))) This was really funny. Everyone knowing portuguese reality recognized Gypsies. Luis Beal also recognized them. She added they are no long as poor as Margaret described. What I wrote next, about getting rich for not paying taxes (nobody asks for a receipt or invoice in street markets; they don't have to pay rent, poll tax, income tax, social security, insurances, etc., while working in street markets; etc.) , selling fakes (have you ever been in a street market?), and going to jail - even very old grandmothers - for selling drugs, is common knowledge over here. Please note that our media/press always AVOID to mention that arrested people for selling drugs, or people selling fakes in street markets, or people involved in gun shots, etc. are of "raça cigana" (gypsy race) - as they use to call themselves. But, it is impossible to hide this truth when they show them on TV... So... no, what I wrote is not racism or discrimination. But, o.k., I AGREE that what I wrote is a dangerous generalization. And I ask you all to forgive my lack of sensibility (probably because i am not very confortable with english language). So, everything I wrote should have the word "SOME" before the word "Gypsies". Anyway. If you lived here, maybe some of you would write "MANY" or "MOST" instead of "SOME"... Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal PS-1: Portugal is not known for discriminating Gypsies or having slaughtered them in any Holocaust. That is much more common in the richest countries. :-) PS-2: I noticed you called them "Roma people". I hope the word "gypsie" is not insulting. I use it to call them, as I use "portuguese" or "canadian" to call us. PS-3: Is there anything to criticize about Canada (michael moore seems to love it!)?!? ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Some of these comments and the ones leading to this posting are not appropriate. With due respect, I don't question intent at this moment, but the impact of all your comments are racist. The Roma people have suffered tremendously in Europe. They continued to be discriminated in all Europe, in some countries more than others. A half a million were slaughtered in the Holocaust. They deserve more than you unfortunate comments. Don't get me wrong, I believe that you are expressing what a sizeable number of Portuguese would say. It doesn't make it right, but it speaks volumes about your country. I too am critical about my country, Canada. Just to save you time. This topic has nothing to do with Madeira other than show you , as madeiran Diaspora, a glimpse of attitudes of the "motherland" then and even now. We have a snowstorm here and I am house-bound. I have refused to get into this debate but unfortunately and obviously I don't any better! Jose Fernandez ________________________________ From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: Wed 2/14/2007 8:52 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis B. I agree with you. Let me add something else. Don't get me wrong. I do not want you to think I'm some kind of racist or anything. My opinion is: those gypsy "traders" got rich because they never payed taxes at street markets. Most of them DO NOT WANT to own stores because, this way, it's not easy to check how much they own/sell/etc., and they keep away from taxes. They became rich, all right. And they love showing it. That's why they (men and women) wear all the gold they can. In the last 20 years, many gypsies went to prison for a much more profitable trade: they became DRUG dealers. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Gypsies is exactly what I thought of too when I read your description. You say they begged discreetly, how long ago was that? When I was a young girl in the 70's they were indeed poor, wearing black clothing, never bathing, and they were always in small groups, at least where I lived in the suburbs of Lisbon, but they soon became rich selling all kinds of junk at the street markets. When I left Portugal in the late 80's they owned clothing stores, beautiful houses and cars, but still wore black and did not bathe :( They sell everything and anything they think you'll pay money for. I bet if you go back now they will be very different. Luis Beal ------------- Dear Margaret, I am sorry (once again), but I got to tell you that your description of Barcelos is just like I wrote that I've only seen almost-naked red indians and some very fat black people in the US. :-) Anyway, I've been smiling with your description of Barcelos (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelos) for the last couple of minutes. People from Barcelos are descendants of the Moors? Probably from those who were butchered in the late 900's (over 1000 years ago)? LOL People from Minho (northern Portugal) is known for being the living proof of the visigoths (and other germanic peoples) domination in the 7th and 8th century, until de arrival of the moors. Many still have blond hair and blue eyes. My guess is that those dark skin people, begging and wearing black clothes were GYPSIES! (or Romanians) LOLLoLuis ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose: You will find Castelo de Vide north of Portoalegre and there is a major road that leads to it. It is close to the Spansh border and there is a Spa near by. It is great to go on a Portuguese tour for the guides know the history and the historical buildings and you really learn a lot more from them. They are fluent in several languages. We were with a group from Belgium and he communicated very well with them in French and also translated everything for us in English. There were only four Americans in the group. It is important to book the tour before you leave however we were fortunate to join the tour with the aid of the conserge at the hotel. Another area of great interest is Barcelos. The towns people are decendants of the moors and so was our tour guide. They were very poor and in their plaza sold pottery. They would beg however it was done very decreetly and you knew that they had great need. It was interesting to see that they still occupied the town, were of the darker skin, and wore black clothing . They sell many of those roosters of pottery that we all are familiar with. Their merchandize was all of pottery. Maragaret ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/

Before we change the subject, I would like to applaud Jose for standing up for his beliefs. Ed & I have spent the last couple of weeks watching CNN - Paula Zahns's specials on racism in America- I believe it they are billing the series "Out in the Open"...a very apt name. They have been eye-opening... and I'm embarrassed to say it has made us look in the mirror more than once...especially when it comes to being a voice that speaks against others harmful words. I DO NOT for a second believe that either Luis OR Luis is a "racist" - whatever that is....but I for one have said things from time to time that I wish I had never uttered. This has been a very interesting debate...and I hope it will continue...the Jewish debate that is...LOL. It is impossible to talk about genealogy without discussing history...they go hand in hand! And we also want to mention that we have NEVER had to use the DELETE button on this list. It is the best one I have ever been a member of...and we thank you ALL. Cece & Ed Cece Camara Soccer 4 All www.soccer4all.com 281 499-6665 fax 281 499-7411 -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:39 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo I am sorry but generalizations are never true. Some Roma are unwashed, but so are some Canadians, Americans, French and so on. Some got rich from drug trade, but so did some Portuguese, Italian, Algerian etc. What truth is there? That some individuals are bad, and do things that we don't like? If I repeated to you, as truth, comments that were heard in France or in Canada in the 60's about the Portuguese, would you like it? Well, I wouldn't. I would say exactly the same thing. Importantly, I refer you to my comments. I said, with due respect, that the impact of your comments were racist. You, I don't know. You can define yourself, but I will not. I agree that one could make any comments and relate them to Madeira. But I believe that we in the Diaspora would benefit more about dialogue and sharing about our history, our customs, and our struggles. But as you make it quite clear in a later posting, we know who controls this list, and I will follow the rules. Perhaps a reminder from time is always a good idea. Just a suggestion, because there are a lot of things affecting our people that I would like to talk about! Finally, language often transmits more than words. As of now whether I like it or not, Madeira is not part of Portugal. It is Portugal. The Madeiran President, Dr. Alberto Joao Jardim, has said that we are not an appendix of anything. We are what we decide to be and others will not decide that for us. After 550 years that may trouble some, but that's the truth or is it that in politics and war the truth is always the first victim? José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis Beal Sent: February 14, 2007 3:43 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo There is a difference between racism and the truth. I am not a racist and my comments, or Luis KW's, were not racist they were merely a description of how gypsies behave and their achievements over the last 30 years. It is a pity that anytime someone mentions something, whether good or bad, about another race or culture it is immediately viewed as racist. There are different obvious behaviors to each culture and race and stating their good and bad parts is NOT racism. Trashing them or putting them down IS racism. Stating facts IS NOT, it is the way life is, the way they want it to be. If you believe what we said speaks volumes about our country you are forgetting that the same situation exists in most of the southern European countries where gypsies have settled, and these countries will have similar stories to tell. We can end this discussion right here and go back to Madeira's genealogy topics (although there are probably gypsies in Madeira so it is not off topic) :) Just one more thing, you will eventually find out that since Madeira is part of Portugal talking about things that happened in the mainland (history) is not off topic. They share the same history and a lot of the same people :) Have a happy valentines day! Luis Beal Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 9:51:16 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Some of these comments and the ones leading to this posting are not appropriate. With due respect, I don't question intent at this moment, but the impact of all your comments are racist. The Roma people have suffered tremendously in Europe. They continued to be discriminated in all Europe, in some countries more than others. A half a million were slaughtered in the Holocaust. They deserve more than you unfortunate comments. Don't get me wrong, I believe that you are expressing what a sizeable number of Portuguese would say. It doesn't make it right, but it speaks volumes about your country. I too am critical about my country, Canada. Just to save you time. This topic has nothing to do with Madeira other than show you , as madeiran Diaspora, a glimpse of attitudes of the "motherland" then and even now. We have a snowstorm here and I am house-bound. I have refused to get into this debate but unfortunately and obviously I don't any better! Jose Fernandez ________________________________ From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: Wed 2/14/2007 8:52 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis B. I agree with you. Let me add something else. Don't get me wrong. I do not want you to think I'm some kind of racist or anything. My opinion is: those gypsy "traders" got rich because they never payed taxes at street markets. Most of them DO NOT WANT to own stores because, this way, it's not easy to check how much they own/sell/etc., and they keep away from taxes. They became rich, all right. And they love showing it. That's why they (men and women) wear all the gold they can. In the last 20 years, many gypsies went to prison for a much more profitable trade: they became DRUG dealers. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Gypsies is exactly what I thought of too when I read your description. You say they begged discreetly, how long ago was that? When I was a young girl in the 70's they were indeed poor, wearing black clothing, never bathing, and they were always in small groups, at least where I lived in the suburbs of Lisbon, but they soon became rich selling all kinds of junk at the street markets. When I left Portugal in the late 80's they owned clothing stores, beautiful houses and cars, but still wore black and did not bathe :( They sell everything and anything they think you'll pay money for. I bet if you go back now they will be very different. Luis Beal ------------- Dear Margaret, I am sorry (once again), but I got to tell you that your description of Barcelos is just like I wrote that I've only seen almost-naked red indians and some very fat black people in the US. :-) Anyway, I've been smiling with your description of Barcelos (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelos) for the last couple of minutes. People from Barcelos are descendants of the Moors? Probably from those who were butchered in the late 900's (over 1000 years ago)? LOL People from Minho (northern Portugal) is known for being the living proof of the visigoths (and other germanic peoples) domination in the 7th and 8th century, until de arrival of the moors. Many still have blond hair and blue eyes. My guess is that those dark skin people, begging and wearing black clothes were GYPSIES! (or Romanians) LOLLoLuis ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose: You will find Castelo de Vide north of Portoalegre and there is a major road that leads to it. It is close to the Spansh border and there is a Spa near by. It is great to go on a Portuguese tour for the guides know the history and the historical buildings and you really learn a lot more from them. They are fluent in several languages. We were with a group from Belgium and he communicated very well with them in French and also translated everything for us in English. There were only four Americans in the group. It is important to book the tour before you leave however we were fortunate to join the tour with the aid of the conserge at the hotel. Another area of great interest is Barcelos. The towns people are decendants of the moors and so was our tour guide. They were very poor and in their plaza sold pottery. They would beg however it was done very decreetly and you knew that they had great need. It was interesting to see that they still occupied the town, were of the darker skin, and wore black clothing . They sell many of those roosters of pottery that we all are familiar with. Their merchandize was all of pottery. Maragaret ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de EUR 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de EUR 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am sorry but generalizations are never true. Some Roma are unwashed, but so are some Canadians, Americans, French and so on. Some got rich from drug trade, but so did some Portuguese, Italian, Algerian etc. What truth is there? That some individuals are bad, and do things that we don't like? If I repeated to you, as truth, comments that were heard in France or in Canada in the 60's about the Portuguese, would you like it? Well, I wouldn't. I would say exactly the same thing. Importantly, I refer you to my comments. I said, with due respect, that the impact of your comments were racist. You, I don't know. You can define yourself, but I will not. I agree that one could make any comments and relate them to Madeira. But I believe that we in the Diaspora would benefit more about dialogue and sharing about our history, our customs, and our struggles. But as you make it quite clear in a later posting, we know who controls this list, and I will follow the rules. Perhaps a reminder from time is always a good idea. Just a suggestion, because there are a lot of things affecting our people that I would like to talk about! Finally, language often transmits more than words. As of now whether I like it or not, Madeira is not part of Portugal. It is Portugal. The Madeiran President, Dr. Alberto Joao Jardim, has said that we are not an appendix of anything. We are what we decide to be and others will not decide that for us. After 550 years that may trouble some, but that's the truth or is it that in politics and war the truth is always the first victim? José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis Beal Sent: February 14, 2007 3:43 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo There is a difference between racism and the truth. I am not a racist and my comments, or Luis KW's, were not racist they were merely a description of how gypsies behave and their achievements over the last 30 years. It is a pity that anytime someone mentions something, whether good or bad, about another race or culture it is immediately viewed as racist. There are different obvious behaviors to each culture and race and stating their good and bad parts is NOT racism. Trashing them or putting them down IS racism. Stating facts IS NOT, it is the way life is, the way they want it to be. If you believe what we said speaks volumes about our country you are forgetting that the same situation exists in most of the southern European countries where gypsies have settled, and these countries will have similar stories to tell. We can end this discussion right here and go back to Madeira's genealogy topics (although there are probably gypsies in Madeira so it is not off topic) :) Just one more thing, you will eventually find out that since Madeira is part of Portugal talking about things that happened in the mainland (history) is not off topic. They share the same history and a lot of the same people :) Have a happy valentines day! Luis Beal Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 9:51:16 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Some of these comments and the ones leading to this posting are not appropriate. With due respect, I don't question intent at this moment, but the impact of all your comments are racist. The Roma people have suffered tremendously in Europe. They continued to be discriminated in all Europe, in some countries more than others. A half a million were slaughtered in the Holocaust. They deserve more than you unfortunate comments. Don't get me wrong, I believe that you are expressing what a sizeable number of Portuguese would say. It doesn't make it right, but it speaks volumes about your country. I too am critical about my country, Canada. Just to save you time. This topic has nothing to do with Madeira other than show you , as madeiran Diaspora, a glimpse of attitudes of the "motherland" then and even now. We have a snowstorm here and I am house-bound. I have refused to get into this debate but unfortunately and obviously I don't any better! Jose Fernandez ________________________________ From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: Wed 2/14/2007 8:52 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis B. I agree with you. Let me add something else. Don't get me wrong. I do not want you to think I'm some kind of racist or anything. My opinion is: those gypsy "traders" got rich because they never payed taxes at street markets. Most of them DO NOT WANT to own stores because, this way, it's not easy to check how much they own/sell/etc., and they keep away from taxes. They became rich, all right. And they love showing it. That's why they (men and women) wear all the gold they can. In the last 20 years, many gypsies went to prison for a much more profitable trade: they became DRUG dealers. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Gypsies is exactly what I thought of too when I read your description. You say they begged discreetly, how long ago was that? When I was a young girl in the 70's they were indeed poor, wearing black clothing, never bathing, and they were always in small groups, at least where I lived in the suburbs of Lisbon, but they soon became rich selling all kinds of junk at the street markets. When I left Portugal in the late 80's they owned clothing stores, beautiful houses and cars, but still wore black and did not bathe :( They sell everything and anything they think you'll pay money for. I bet if you go back now they will be very different. Luis Beal ------------- Dear Margaret, I am sorry (once again), but I got to tell you that your description of Barcelos is just like I wrote that I've only seen almost-naked red indians and some very fat black people in the US. :-) Anyway, I've been smiling with your description of Barcelos (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelos) for the last couple of minutes. People from Barcelos are descendants of the Moors? Probably from those who were butchered in the late 900's (over 1000 years ago)? LOL People from Minho (northern Portugal) is known for being the living proof of the visigoths (and other germanic peoples) domination in the 7th and 8th century, until de arrival of the moors. Many still have blond hair and blue eyes. My guess is that those dark skin people, begging and wearing black clothes were GYPSIES! (or Romanians) LOLLoLuis ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose: You will find Castelo de Vide north of Portoalegre and there is a major road that leads to it. It is close to the Spansh border and there is a Spa near by. It is great to go on a Portuguese tour for the guides know the history and the historical buildings and you really learn a lot more from them. They are fluent in several languages. We were with a group from Belgium and he communicated very well with them in French and also translated everything for us in English. There were only four Americans in the group. It is important to book the tour before you leave however we were fortunate to join the tour with the aid of the conserge at the hotel. Another area of great interest is Barcelos. The towns people are decendants of the moors and so was our tour guide. They were very poor and in their plaza sold pottery. They would beg however it was done very decreetly and you knew that they had great need. It was interesting to see that they still occupied the town, were of the darker skin, and wore black clothing . They sell many of those roosters of pottery that we all are familiar with. Their merchandize was all of pottery. Maragaret ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de EUR 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de EUR 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Luis, That is a whole different subject and debte...hahah Lou "For those who have fought for it....Freedom has a taste the protected will never know" " Without the Brave there would be no land of the Free" A new Recruit asked an old Warrior, "What is War like?" The old timer replied, "A bunch of us went down to Gettysburg one day, a lot of people died. If you weren't there you wouldn't understand." -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis Beal Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 10:29 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo That works too if you know why they did what they did :) Luis Beal Luis, I would take the opposite approach, by understanding what and why our ancestors did what they did is how we understand what and why we do what we do today.? :) Lou "For those who have fought for it....Freedom has a taste the protected will never know" " Without the Brave there would be no land of the Free" A new Recruit asked an old Warrior, "What is War like?" The old timer replied, "A bunch of us went down to Gettysburg one day, a lot of people died. If you weren't there you wouldn't understand." -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis Beal Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 8:00 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo I agree with you we cannot apply the thoughts of 2007 to 15th century history, but as a student of archaeology I will say that by understanding the thoughts of 2007 you may be closer to understanding the thoughts of the 15th century. Even today by watching what drives humans to do the things we do in our everyday lives will help make sense of why our ancestors did some of the things they did. Love, money, greed, family, food, religion, were biggies for our ancestors and are biggies for us today too. :) I sound more like an anthropologist, yuck!! Luis Beal All, I have been watching the discussions progress here and find them fascinating, regardless of what is said. For the record I am 3rd generation American, Born in Lowell,MA (Like Pat :)), however I stayed till I was 18, where upon I joined the Navy (not sure....but that might have to do with being a Portagee...) I have been working on the Abreu family line for over 20 years and it has only been in the last couple of months that I have learned so much about the people and their history from this list. Good, bad or indifferent it is what it is. As a student of history we can NOT apply 2007 thoughts to 15th century history. I for one am very interested in the discussions and have enjoyed all perspectives. Please continue.....and if you are offended.....turn the channel. Regards, Lou "For those who have fought for it....Freedom has a taste the protected will never know" " Without the Brave there would be no land of the Free" A new Recruit asked an old Warrior, "What is War like?" The old timer replied, "A bunch of us went down to Gettysburg one day, a lot of people died. If you weren't there you wouldn't understand." -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Patricia Corbera Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 7:02 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Duane De Mello <casademello@comcast.net> wrote: " However, I do not believe this forum is the appropriate place to discuss in detail, insofar-genealogical much less personal experience purposes." Hi Duane, Will you please explain what you meant by what you posted above? I, too am a first generation American born of Portuguese ancestry, soon to be 65. ;-). Born in Lowell, MA, but raised in San Diego CA. My family also lived in Oakland, San Leandro, Hayward, Newark, Livermore and now Tracy CA. All these cities had/have a solid community base of Portuguese residents. So I am "no stranger," to the Portuguese ways, as well as the "moda da Americana." Never the less I am still learning about the events that our Portuguese ancestors faced... as evident by Margaret"s reference to Castelo de Vide and the "safe house." What topics do you or other list members think should be discussed on this list ? I for one would like to know more about Dr. Robert Reid Kalley, the wealthy young Scottish physician who was also a minister of the Free Church of Scotland, and his missionary work among the Madeirans. How about Dr. Manuel Luciano da Silva, in analyzing Christopher Columbus' three real ciphers: his Sigla, his Monogram and his Blessing. What about "Portuguese Recipes," Ailments," Blessings to cure various conditions, ie. "the evil eye," some of these practices performed by our Madeira ancestors were taken from the "slaves," that were brought to Madeira to work the fields, etc. These practices could often be perceived as border line "witch craft." Or is this list simply a vehicle to post surnames? Maybe Luis Beal needs to re-state the purpose of this list group, so that we're all on "the same page." We claim to be Portuguese, (I liked what Luis K W said "whatever that means.") with like as well as different life experiences...in my opinion that need to be shared. Correct me if I'm totally off base. Adios, Pat Silva Corbera "Genealogists live in the Past Lane." ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! 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Luis, I would take the opposite approach, by understanding what and why our ancestors did what they did is how we understand what and why we do what we do today.? :) Lou "For those who have fought for it....Freedom has a taste the protected will never know" " Without the Brave there would be no land of the Free" A new Recruit asked an old Warrior, "What is War like?" The old timer replied, "A bunch of us went down to Gettysburg one day, a lot of people died. If you weren't there you wouldn't understand." -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis Beal Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 8:00 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo I agree with you we cannot apply the thoughts of 2007 to 15th century history, but as a student of archaeology I will say that by understanding the thoughts of 2007 you may be closer to understanding the thoughts of the 15th century. Even today by watching what drives humans to do the things we do in our everyday lives will help make sense of why our ancestors did some of the things they did. Love, money, greed, family, food, religion, were biggies for our ancestors and are biggies for us today too. :) I sound more like an anthropologist, yuck!! Luis Beal All, I have been watching the discussions progress here and find them fascinating, regardless of what is said. For the record I am 3rd generation American, Born in Lowell,MA (Like Pat :)), however I stayed till I was 18, where upon I joined the Navy (not sure....but that might have to do with being a Portagee...) I have been working on the Abreu family line for over 20 years and it has only been in the last couple of months that I have learned so much about the people and their history from this list. Good, bad or indifferent it is what it is. As a student of history we can NOT apply 2007 thoughts to 15th century history. I for one am very interested in the discussions and have enjoyed all perspectives. Please continue.....and if you are offended.....turn the channel. Regards, Lou "For those who have fought for it....Freedom has a taste the protected will never know" " Without the Brave there would be no land of the Free" A new Recruit asked an old Warrior, "What is War like?" The old timer replied, "A bunch of us went down to Gettysburg one day, a lot of people died. If you weren't there you wouldn't understand." -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Patricia Corbera Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 7:02 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Duane De Mello <casademello@comcast.net> wrote: " However, I do not believe this forum is the appropriate place to discuss in detail, insofar-genealogical much less personal experience purposes." Hi Duane, Will you please explain what you meant by what you posted above? I, too am a first generation American born of Portuguese ancestry, soon to be 65. ;-). Born in Lowell, MA, but raised in San Diego CA. My family also lived in Oakland, San Leandro, Hayward, Newark, Livermore and now Tracy CA. All these cities had/have a solid community base of Portuguese residents. So I am "no stranger," to the Portuguese ways, as well as the "moda da Americana." Never the less I am still learning about the events that our Portuguese ancestors faced... as evident by Margaret"s reference to Castelo de Vide and the "safe house." What topics do you or other list members think should be discussed on this list ? I for one would like to know more about Dr. Robert Reid Kalley, the wealthy young Scottish physician who was also a minister of the Free Church of Scotland, and his missionary work among the Madeirans. How about Dr. Manuel Luciano da Silva, in analyzing Christopher Columbus' three real ciphers: his Sigla, his Monogram and his Blessing. What about "Portuguese Recipes," Ailments," Blessings to cure various conditions, ie. "the evil eye," some of these practices performed by our Madeira ancestors were taken from the "slaves," that were brought to Madeira to work the fields, etc. These practices could often be perceived as border line "witch craft." Or is this list simply a vehicle to post surnames? Maybe Luis Beal needs to re-state the purpose of this list group, so that we're all on "the same page." We claim to be Portuguese, (I liked what Luis K W said "whatever that means.") with like as well as different life experiences...in my opinion that need to be shared. Correct me if I'm totally off base. Adios, Pat Silva Corbera "Genealogists live in the Past Lane." ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Jose', YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! What I wrote *sounds* like discrimitation, racism, and so forth. But I am (not)sorry to say that I am not the right target for that kind of accusation. We were talking about what the portuguese people from Barcelos looked like. Margaret described them as "dark skinned", wearing black clothing, selling pottery in street markets, looking like their ancestors the moors. :-))) This was really funny. Everyone knowing portuguese reality recognized Gypsies. Luis Beal also recognized them. She added they are no long as poor as Margaret described. What I wrote next, about getting rich for not paying taxes (nobody asks for a receipt or invoice in street markets; they don't have to pay rent, poll tax, income tax, social security, insurances, etc., while working in street markets; etc.) , selling fakes (have you ever been in a street market?), and going to jail - even very old grandmothers - for selling drugs, is common knowledge over here. Please note that our media/press always AVOID to mention that arrested people for selling drugs, or people selling fakes in street markets, or people involved in gun shots, etc. are of "raça cigana" (gypsy race) - as they use to call themselves. But, it is impossible to hide this truth when they show them on TV... So... no, what I wrote is not racism or discrimination. But, o.k., I AGREE that what I wrote is a dangerous generalization. And I ask you all to forgive my lack of sensibility (probably because i am not very confortable with english language). So, everything I wrote should have the word "SOME" before the word "Gypsies". Anyway. If you lived here, maybe some of you would write "MANY" or "MOST" instead of "SOME"... Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal PS-1: Portugal is not known for discriminating Gypsies or having slaughtered them in any Holocaust. That is much more common in the richest countries. :-) PS-2: I noticed you called them "Roma people". I hope the word "gypsie" is not insulting. I use it to call them, as I use "portuguese" or "canadian" to call us. PS-3: Is there anything to criticize about Canada (michael moore seems to love it!)?!? ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Some of these comments and the ones leading to this posting are not appropriate. With due respect, I don't question intent at this moment, but the impact of all your comments are racist. The Roma people have suffered tremendously in Europe. They continued to be discriminated in all Europe, in some countries more than others. A half a million were slaughtered in the Holocaust. They deserve more than you unfortunate comments. Don't get me wrong, I believe that you are expressing what a sizeable number of Portuguese would say. It doesn't make it right, but it speaks volumes about your country. I too am critical about my country, Canada. Just to save you time. This topic has nothing to do with Madeira other than show you , as madeiran Diaspora, a glimpse of attitudes of the "motherland" then and even now. We have a snowstorm here and I am house-bound. I have refused to get into this debate but unfortunately and obviously I don't any better! Jose Fernandez ________________________________ From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: Wed 2/14/2007 8:52 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis B. I agree with you. Let me add something else. Don't get me wrong. I do not want you to think I'm some kind of racist or anything. My opinion is: those gypsy "traders" got rich because they never payed taxes at street markets. Most of them DO NOT WANT to own stores because, this way, it's not easy to check how much they own/sell/etc., and they keep away from taxes. They became rich, all right. And they love showing it. That's why they (men and women) wear all the gold they can. In the last 20 years, many gypsies went to prison for a much more profitable trade: they became DRUG dealers. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Gypsies is exactly what I thought of too when I read your description. You say they begged discreetly, how long ago was that? When I was a young girl in the 70's they were indeed poor, wearing black clothing, never bathing, and they were always in small groups, at least where I lived in the suburbs of Lisbon, but they soon became rich selling all kinds of junk at the street markets. When I left Portugal in the late 80's they owned clothing stores, beautiful houses and cars, but still wore black and did not bathe :( They sell everything and anything they think you'll pay money for. I bet if you go back now they will be very different. Luis Beal ------------- Dear Margaret, I am sorry (once again), but I got to tell you that your description of Barcelos is just like I wrote that I've only seen almost-naked red indians and some very fat black people in the US. :-) Anyway, I've been smiling with your description of Barcelos (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelos) for the last couple of minutes. People from Barcelos are descendants of the Moors? Probably from those who were butchered in the late 900's (over 1000 years ago)? LOL People from Minho (northern Portugal) is known for being the living proof of the visigoths (and other germanic peoples) domination in the 7th and 8th century, until de arrival of the moors. Many still have blond hair and blue eyes. My guess is that those dark skin people, begging and wearing black clothes were GYPSIES! (or Romanians) LOLLoLuis ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose: You will find Castelo de Vide north of Portoalegre and there is a major road that leads to it. It is close to the Spansh border and there is a Spa near by. It is great to go on a Portuguese tour for the guides know the history and the historical buildings and you really learn a lot more from them. They are fluent in several languages. We were with a group from Belgium and he communicated very well with them in French and also translated everything for us in English. There were only four Americans in the group. It is important to book the tour before you leave however we were fortunate to join the tour with the aid of the conserge at the hotel. Another area of great interest is Barcelos. The towns people are decendants of the moors and so was our tour guide. They were very poor and in their plaza sold pottery. They would beg however it was done very decreetly and you knew that they had great need. It was interesting to see that they still occupied the town, were of the darker skin, and wore black clothing . They sell many of those roosters of pottery that we all are familiar with. Their merchandize was all of pottery. Maragaret ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/

That works too if you know why they did what they did :) Luis Beal Luis, I would take the opposite approach, by understanding what and why our ancestors did what they did is how we understand what and why we do what we do today.? :) Lou "For those who have fought for it....Freedom has a taste the protected will never know" " Without the Brave there would be no land of the Free" A new Recruit asked an old Warrior, "What is War like?" The old timer replied, "A bunch of us went down to Gettysburg one day, a lot of people died. If you weren't there you wouldn't understand." -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis Beal Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 8:00 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo I agree with you we cannot apply the thoughts of 2007 to 15th century history, but as a student of archaeology I will say that by understanding the thoughts of 2007 you may be closer to understanding the thoughts of the 15th century. Even today by watching what drives humans to do the things we do in our everyday lives will help make sense of why our ancestors did some of the things they did. Love, money, greed, family, food, religion, were biggies for our ancestors and are biggies for us today too. :) I sound more like an anthropologist, yuck!! Luis Beal All, I have been watching the discussions progress here and find them fascinating, regardless of what is said. For the record I am 3rd generation American, Born in Lowell,MA (Like Pat :)), however I stayed till I was 18, where upon I joined the Navy (not sure....but that might have to do with being a Portagee...) I have been working on the Abreu family line for over 20 years and it has only been in the last couple of months that I have learned so much about the people and their history from this list. Good, bad or indifferent it is what it is. As a student of history we can NOT apply 2007 thoughts to 15th century history. I for one am very interested in the discussions and have enjoyed all perspectives. Please continue.....and if you are offended.....turn the channel. Regards, Lou "For those who have fought for it....Freedom has a taste the protected will never know" " Without the Brave there would be no land of the Free" A new Recruit asked an old Warrior, "What is War like?" The old timer replied, "A bunch of us went down to Gettysburg one day, a lot of people died. If you weren't there you wouldn't understand." -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Patricia Corbera Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 7:02 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Duane De Mello <casademello@comcast.net> wrote: " However, I do not believe this forum is the appropriate place to discuss in detail, insofar-genealogical much less personal experience purposes." Hi Duane, Will you please explain what you meant by what you posted above? I, too am a first generation American born of Portuguese ancestry, soon to be 65. ;-). Born in Lowell, MA, but raised in San Diego CA. My family also lived in Oakland, San Leandro, Hayward, Newark, Livermore and now Tracy CA. All these cities had/have a solid community base of Portuguese residents. So I am "no stranger," to the Portuguese ways, as well as the "moda da Americana." Never the less I am still learning about the events that our Portuguese ancestors faced... as evident by Margaret"s reference to Castelo de Vide and the "safe house." What topics do you or other list members think should be discussed on this list ? I for one would like to know more about Dr. Robert Reid Kalley, the wealthy young Scottish physician who was also a minister of the Free Church of Scotland, and his missionary work among the Madeirans. How about Dr. Manuel Luciano da Silva, in analyzing Christopher Columbus' three real ciphers: his Sigla, his Monogram and his Blessing. What about "Portuguese Recipes," Ailments," Blessings to cure various conditions, ie. "the evil eye," some of these practices performed by our Madeira ancestors were taken from the "slaves," that were brought to Madeira to work the fields, etc. These practices could often be perceived as border line "witch craft." Or is this list simply a vehicle to post surnames? Maybe Luis Beal needs to re-state the purpose of this list group, so that we're all on "the same page." We claim to be Portuguese, (I liked what Luis K W said "whatever that means.") with like as well as different life experiences...in my opinion that need to be shared. Correct me if I'm totally off base. Adios, Pat Silva Corbera "Genealogists live in the Past Lane." ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL

All, I have been watching the discussions progress here and find them fascinating, regardless of what is said. For the record I am 3rd generation American, Born in Lowell,MA (Like Pat :)), however I stayed till I was 18, where upon I joined the Navy (not sure....but that might have to do with being a Portagee...) I have been working on the Abreu family line for over 20 years and it has only been in the last couple of months that I have learned so much about the people and their history from this list. Good, bad or indifferent it is what it is. As a student of history we can NOT apply 2007 thoughts to 15th century history. I for one am very interested in the discussions and have enjoyed all perspectives. Please continue.....and if you are offended.....turn the channel. Regards, Lou "For those who have fought for it....Freedom has a taste the protected will never know" " Without the Brave there would be no land of the Free" A new Recruit asked an old Warrior, "What is War like?" The old timer replied, "A bunch of us went down to Gettysburg one day, a lot of people died. If you weren't there you wouldn't understand." -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Patricia Corbera Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 7:02 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Duane De Mello <casademello@comcast.net> wrote: " However, I do not believe this forum is the appropriate place to discuss in detail, insofar-genealogical much less personal experience purposes." Hi Duane, Will you please explain what you meant by what you posted above? I, too am a first generation American born of Portuguese ancestry, soon to be 65. ;-). Born in Lowell, MA, but raised in San Diego CA. My family also lived in Oakland, San Leandro, Hayward, Newark, Livermore and now Tracy CA. All these cities had/have a solid community base of Portuguese residents. So I am "no stranger," to the Portuguese ways, as well as the "moda da Americana." Never the less I am still learning about the events that our Portuguese ancestors faced... as evident by Margaret"s reference to Castelo de Vide and the "safe house." What topics do you or other list members think should be discussed on this list ? I for one would like to know more about Dr. Robert Reid Kalley, the wealthy young Scottish physician who was also a minister of the Free Church of Scotland, and his missionary work among the Madeirans. How about Dr. Manuel Luciano da Silva, in analyzing Christopher Columbus' three real ciphers: his Sigla, his Monogram and his Blessing. What about "Portuguese Recipes," Ailments," Blessings to cure various conditions, ie. "the evil eye," some of these practices performed by our Madeira ancestors were taken from the "slaves," that were brought to Madeira to work the fields, etc. These practices could often be perceived as border line "witch craft." Or is this list simply a vehicle to post surnames? Maybe Luis Beal needs to re-state the purpose of this list group, so that we're all on "the same page." We claim to be Portuguese, (I liked what Luis K W said "whatever that means.") with like as well as different life experiences...in my opinion that need to be shared. Correct me if I'm totally off base. Adios, Pat Silva Corbera "Genealogists live in the Past Lane." ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Luis: I can only say that you cannot erase facts to please your opion. I know what I saw and what we experienced. You have negataive opinion that blocks your judgement. Sorry !!!! Peace be with you. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Luis Beal" <luisbeal@yahoo.com> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 7:35 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Gypsies is exactly what I thought of too when I read your description. You say they begged discreetly, how long ago was that? When I was a young girl in the 70's they were indeed poor, wearing black clothing, never bathing, and they were always in small groups, at least where I lived in the suburbs of Lisbon, but they soon became rich selling all kinds of junk at the street markets. When I left Portugal in the late 80's they owned clothing stores, beautiful houses and cars, but still wore black and did not bathe :( They sell everything and anything they think you'll pay money for. I bet if you go back now they will be very different. Luis Beal Dear Margaret, I am sorry (once again), but I got to tell you that your description of Barcelos is just like I wrote that I've only seen almost-naked red indians and some very fat black people in the US. :-) Anyway, I've been smiling with your description of Barcelos (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelos) for the last couple of minutes. People from Barcelos are descendants of the Moors? Probably from those who were butchered in the late 900's (over 1000 years ago)? LOL People from Minho (northern Portugal) is known for being the living proof of the visigoths (and other germanic peoples) domination in the 7th and 8th century, until de arrival of the moors. Many still have blond hair and blue eyes. My guess is that those dark skin people, begging and wearing black clothes were GYPSIES! (or Romanians) LOLLoLuis ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose: You will find Castelo de Vide north of Portoalegre and there is a major road that leads to it. It is close to the Spansh border and there is a Spa near by. It is great to go on a Portuguese tour for the guides know the history and the historical buildings and you really learn a lot more from them. They are fluent in several languages. We were with a group from Belgium and he communicated very well with them in French and also translated everything for us in English. There were only four Americans in the group. It is important to book the tour before you leave however we were fortunate to join the tour with the aid of the conserge at the hotel. Another area of great interest is Barcelos. The towns people are decendants of the moors and so was our tour guide. They were very poor and in their plaza sold pottery. They would beg however it was done very decreetly and you knew that they had great need. It was interesting to see that they still occupied the town, were of the darker skin, and wore black clothing . They sell many of those roosters of pottery that we all are familiar with. Their merchandize was all of pottery. Maragaret ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de ? 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Pat: The safe house is where the prayer meeting was held however if there would be any effort to attack the people in any way, there was a door in the first floor from which they could leave. The people of the villa protected their fellow villagers by not disclosing any information that would be dangerous to their neighbors. The converts did attended mass but remember this was at the time when they were in grave danger and not in modern times. I was impressed how they all lived in harmony all the following years and it continued for many more. I do hope that the condition still exist. Would very much like to return. Sorry that there is today so much negativity and that is where we all must not fight the battles of past generations and not still try to resolve differences long after that generations have passed on. That is not progress. We know here, that the civil war ended and we have gone on and live together peacefully. The southern people are doing quite well and intergration has given everyone a change of fullfillment. I wouldnot like to see some hard heads bring up negativity and cause an uproar. Let us all try to live in peace. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patricia Corbera" <papagaia2@sbcglobal.net> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 5:59 PM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Castelo de Vide > Margaret, > > This is very interesting, it's the first time I have heard mention of a "safe house." > > Am I understanding this correctly, these Portuguese people who were of the Jewish faith, still attended mass, and also used the "safe house," for their Friday night prayer? > > What was the purpose of the escape door, if a "safe house," was there for their Friday night prayer? Were the Portuguese villagers that were Catholics respectful of the Friday night prayer ? > Pat > > Margaret <marpg2000@comcast.net> wrote: > Pat: > > The Jews were Portuguese and spoke the language. They had been sheltered > and protected by the Portuguese and were not > removed from the Castelo de Vide. We were shown two center pews in the > church were the Jews sat together during the mass. > The safe house was just about 20 yards away in a narrow winding street not > far from the church. They were dressed just like the others of the vlla and > you couldnot compare them with the New York Jews etc. No braids, long hair > or beards or black clothes. > The safe house was vacant but we were able to visit and see the escape door, > if it was needed. That is the house were the Friday night prayers were > said. > > Margaret > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Patricia Corbera" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 9:34 AM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo > > > Margaret, > > What nationality were these Jews that you observed in 1979 that still > resided in this village with the Portuguese? What language did they speak ? > Did you observe the Portuguese attending the synagogue or some other house > of faith? > > Pat > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Luis: Your comments, your views, your MAJOR contributions, your input to all of us here seeking to further identify our backgrounds and ancestral relationships, is not being called into question. I am 67 years old, first-born Portuguese generation in the U.S., and I highly value what this website is able to contribute to furthering our understanding of our roots. I grew up in a community (in the San Francisco/Oakland Bay Area) that was not without pointing out the "differences" between us, whether it is our religion, our skin color, etc. I know what skin color is all about. We matured, we moved on and we learned to adjust and accommodate to our surroundings, and hopefully, as result, we have aged and become wiser in the process. I have personal experiences with the Roma, in Europe, and the former Soviet Union, where I have lived over the years. However, I do not believe this forum is the appropriate place to discuss in detail, insofar-genealogical much less personal experience purposes. Luis, kept on commenting and contributing to our ongoing dialogue. I value your input. Cheers and best wishes, Duane -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 3:03 PM To: Fernandes, Jose; prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Jose', YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! What I wrote *sounds* like discrimitation, racism, and so forth. But I am (not)sorry to say that I am not the right target for that kind of accusation. We were talking about what the portuguese people from Barcelos looked like. Margaret described them as "dark skinned", wearing black clothing, selling pottery in street markets, looking like their ancestors the moors. :-))) This was really funny. Everyone knowing portuguese reality recognized Gypsies. Luis Beal also recognized them. She added they are no long as poor as Margaret described. What I wrote next, about getting rich for not paying taxes (nobody asks for a receipt or invoice in street markets; they don't have to pay rent, poll tax, income tax, social security, insurances, etc., while working in street markets; etc.) , selling fakes (have you ever been in a street market?), and going to jail - even very old grandmothers - for selling drugs, is common knowledge over here. Please note that our media/press always AVOID to mention that arrested people for selling drugs, or people selling fakes in street markets, or people involved in gun shots, etc. are of "raga cigana" (gypsy race) - as they use to call themselves. But, it is impossible to hide this truth when they show them on TV... So... no, what I wrote is not racism or discrimination. But, o.k., I AGREE that what I wrote is a dangerous generalization. And I ask you all to forgive my lack of sensibility (probably because i am not very confortable with english language). So, everything I wrote should have the word "SOME" before the word "Gypsies". Anyway. If you lived here, maybe some of you would write "MANY" or "MOST" instead of "SOME"... Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal PS-1: Portugal is not known for discriminating Gypsies or having slaughtered them in any Holocaust. That is much more common in the richest countries. :-) PS-2: I noticed you called them "Roma people". I hope the word "gypsie" is not insulting. I use it to call them, as I use "portuguese" or "canadian" to call us. PS-3: Is there anything to criticize about Canada (michael moore seems to love it!)?!? ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Some of these comments and the ones leading to this posting are not appropriate. With due respect, I don't question intent at this moment, but the impact of all your comments are racist. The Roma people have suffered tremendously in Europe. They continued to be discriminated in all Europe, in some countries more than others. A half a million were slaughtered in the Holocaust. They deserve more than you unfortunate comments. Don't get me wrong, I believe that you are expressing what a sizeable number of Portuguese would say. It doesn't make it right, but it speaks volumes about your country. I too am critical about my country, Canada. Just to save you time. This topic has nothing to do with Madeira other than show you , as madeiran Diaspora, a glimpse of attitudes of the "motherland" then and even now. We have a snowstorm here and I am house-bound. I have refused to get into this debate but unfortunately and obviously I don't any better! Jose Fernandez ________________________________ From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: Wed 2/14/2007 8:52 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis B. I agree with you. Let me add something else. Don't get me wrong. I do not want you to think I'm some kind of racist or anything. My opinion is: those gypsy "traders" got rich because they never payed taxes at street markets. Most of them DO NOT WANT to own stores because, this way, it's not easy to check how much they own/sell/etc., and they keep away from taxes. They became rich, all right. And they love showing it. That's why they (men and women) wear all the gold they can. In the last 20 years, many gypsies went to prison for a much more profitable trade: they became DRUG dealers. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Gypsies is exactly what I thought of too when I read your description. You say they begged discreetly, how long ago was that? When I was a young girl in the 70's they were indeed poor, wearing black clothing, never bathing, and they were always in small groups, at least where I lived in the suburbs of Lisbon, but they soon became rich selling all kinds of junk at the street markets. When I left Portugal in the late 80's they owned clothing stores, beautiful houses and cars, but still wore black and did not bathe :( They sell everything and anything they think you'll pay money for. I bet if you go back now they will be very different. Luis Beal ------------- Dear Margaret, I am sorry (once again), but I got to tell you that your description of Barcelos is just like I wrote that I've only seen almost-naked red indians and some very fat black people in the US. :-) Anyway, I've been smiling with your description of Barcelos (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelos) for the last couple of minutes. People from Barcelos are descendants of the Moors? Probably from those who were butchered in the late 900's (over 1000 years ago)? LOL People from Minho (northern Portugal) is known for being the living proof of the visigoths (and other germanic peoples) domination in the 7th and 8th century, until de arrival of the moors. Many still have blond hair and blue eyes. My guess is that those dark skin people, begging and wearing black clothes were GYPSIES! (or Romanians) LOLLoLuis ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose: You will find Castelo de Vide north of Portoalegre and there is a major road that leads to it. It is close to the Spansh border and there is a Spa near by. It is great to go on a Portuguese tour for the guides know the history and the historical buildings and you really learn a lot more from them. They are fluent in several languages. We were with a group from Belgium and he communicated very well with them in French and also translated everything for us in English. There were only four Americans in the group. It is important to book the tour before you leave however we were fortunate to join the tour with the aid of the conserge at the hotel. Another area of great interest is Barcelos. The towns people are decendants of the moors and so was our tour guide. They were very poor and in their plaza sold pottery. They would beg however it was done very decreetly and you knew that they had great need. It was interesting to see that they still occupied the town, were of the darker skin, and wore black clothing . They sell many of those roosters of pottery that we all are familiar with. Their merchandize was all of pottery. Maragaret ------------- Clix ADSL ati 24 Mb: a partir de

I don't need to re-instate the purpose of the list. I believe we are doing fine. I am very happy to see the list so active. My purpose in creating this list was most definitely genealogy, finding common ancestors and new family relationships. But to find ones' ancestors without knowing the history is not knowing as much about them as we could. And although many things have changed throughout the centuries the core beliefs and many of the ways of life are still the same today. So it is also important to understand the people today as it will give an insight to the people of the past. I love this list, you guys are all great and I appreciate your inputs, questions, and everything else you add. If I did not I'd easily kick you out :) Anyway, we are all cousins, we all have a certain percentage of Portuguese blood in our veins and that makes us all family. Trust me, if I find any e-mails that are not appropriate I will deal with them personally by personally e-mailing the person who posted them. So far so good. In 6 years I have only kicked one person out because of spam. If anyone finds anything offensive let me know and I'll deal with it, and if wanted you gently let the person know privately too. In other lists I do find the delete button to be my best friend sometimes :) Have a happy, happy valentines day! Luis Beal list administrator Duane De Mello <casademello@comcast.net> wrote: " However, I do not believe this forum is the appropriate place to discuss in detail, insofar-genealogical much less personal experience purposes." Hi Duane, Will you please explain what you meant by what you posted above? I, too am a first generation American born of Portuguese ancestry, soon to be 65. ;-). Born in Lowell, MA, but raised in San Diego CA. My family also lived in Oakland, San Leandro, Hayward, Newark, Livermore and now Tracy CA. All these cities had/have a solid community base of Portuguese residents. So I am "no stranger," to the Portuguese ways, as well as the "moda da Americana." Never the less I am still learning about the events that our Portuguese ancestors faced... as evident by Margaret"s reference to Castelo de Vide and the "safe house." What topics do you or other list members think should be discussed on this list ? I for one would like to know more about Dr. Robert Reid Kalley, the wealthy young Scottish physician who was also a minister of the Free Church of Scotland, and his missionary work among the Madeirans. How about Dr. Manuel Luciano da Silva, in analyzing Christopher Columbus' three real ciphers: his Sigla, his Monogram and his Blessing. What about "Portuguese Recipes," Ailments," Blessings to cure various conditions, ie. "the evil eye," some of these practices performed by our Madeira ancestors were taken from the "slaves," that were brought to Madeira to work the fields, etc. These practices could often be perceived as border line "witch craft." Or is this list simply a vehicle to post surnames? Maybe Luis Beal needs to re-state the purpose of this list group, so that we're all on "the same page." We claim to be Portuguese, (I liked what Luis K W said "whatever that means.") with like as well as different life experiences...in my opinion that need to be shared. Correct me if I'm totally off base. Adios, Pat Silva Corbera "Genealogists live in the Past Lane." ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com

I agree with you we cannot apply the thoughts of 2007 to 15th century history, but as a student of archaeology I will say that by understanding the thoughts of 2007 you may be closer to understanding the thoughts of the 15th century. Even today by watching what drives humans to do the things we do in our everyday lives will help make sense of why our ancestors did some of the things they did. Love, money, greed, family, food, religion, were biggies for our ancestors and are biggies for us today too. :) I sound more like an anthropologist, yuck!! Luis Beal All, I have been watching the discussions progress here and find them fascinating, regardless of what is said. For the record I am 3rd generation American, Born in Lowell,MA (Like Pat :)), however I stayed till I was 18, where upon I joined the Navy (not sure....but that might have to do with being a Portagee...) I have been working on the Abreu family line for over 20 years and it has only been in the last couple of months that I have learned so much about the people and their history from this list. Good, bad or indifferent it is what it is. As a student of history we can NOT apply 2007 thoughts to 15th century history. I for one am very interested in the discussions and have enjoyed all perspectives. Please continue.....and if you are offended.....turn the channel. Regards, Lou "For those who have fought for it....Freedom has a taste the protected will never know" " Without the Brave there would be no land of the Free" A new Recruit asked an old Warrior, "What is War like?" The old timer replied, "A bunch of us went down to Gettysburg one day, a lot of people died. If you weren't there you wouldn't understand." -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Patricia Corbera Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 7:02 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Duane De Mello <casademello@comcast.net> wrote: " However, I do not believe this forum is the appropriate place to discuss in detail, insofar-genealogical much less personal experience purposes." Hi Duane, Will you please explain what you meant by what you posted above? I, too am a first generation American born of Portuguese ancestry, soon to be 65. ;-). Born in Lowell, MA, but raised in San Diego CA. My family also lived in Oakland, San Leandro, Hayward, Newark, Livermore and now Tracy CA. All these cities had/have a solid community base of Portuguese residents. So I am "no stranger," to the Portuguese ways, as well as the "moda da Americana." Never the less I am still learning about the events that our Portuguese ancestors faced... as evident by Margaret"s reference to Castelo de Vide and the "safe house." What topics do you or other list members think should be discussed on this list ? I for one would like to know more about Dr. Robert Reid Kalley, the wealthy young Scottish physician who was also a minister of the Free Church of Scotland, and his missionary work among the Madeirans. How about Dr. Manuel Luciano da Silva, in analyzing Christopher Columbus' three real ciphers: his Sigla, his Monogram and his Blessing. What about "Portuguese Recipes," Ailments," Blessings to cure various conditions, ie. "the evil eye," some of these practices performed by our Madeira ancestors were taken from the "slaves," that were brought to Madeira to work the fields, etc. These practices could often be perceived as border line "witch craft." Or is this list simply a vehicle to post surnames? Maybe Luis Beal needs to re-state the purpose of this list group, so that we're all on "the same page." We claim to be Portuguese, (I liked what Luis K W said "whatever that means.") with like as well as different life experiences...in my opinion that need to be shared. Correct me if I'm totally off base. Adios, Pat Silva Corbera "Genealogists live in the Past Lane." ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php