Leandro, I am not as advanced as you. I am mostly concentrating on my Fernandes line from Caniço. My Rodrigues line is from my mother's side. At the moment I am awaiting for a passport package for my great great-grandfather, Manuel Rodrigues de Pedro who went to Cantagalo, Rio de Janeiro in early 1890. My great-grandfather dropped the "de Pedro" and I found that out only recently. Manuel was of "pai incognito". My great-grandmother was also from Ponta do Sol. Her father was a Paixão. Can't find that name anywhere there. Anyway, I have friends who live there and I will follow this up, but for the moment I am stuck in 1687 in Caniço. As you know, one of the greatest American writers, John dos Passos, his grandfather was from the village. There is a museum named after him there. Do visit it when you go. I believe that DeSousa, the American musician, was also from there. Anybody to correct this? José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of gregobhte1@aol.com Sent: February 19, 2007 3:32 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Camara Hi Jose... have some ancestors in Ponta do Sol as well.... Do u have any link with your family tree to send t me, so i coulod check if we are related in some way :) Leandro -----Original Message----- From: jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 7.50PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Camara That confuses me too, Luis? Anyway, Katherine has already answered it. Although I am not a Camara, I am a Rodrigues as in Rodrigues de Pedro, from Ponta do Sol. José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis Beal Sent: February 19, 2007 1:47 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Camara It always fascinates me to see this name picking process. My ancestor was Pedro Moniz da Camara, married to Isabel de Andrade (my 10th great-grandparents). According to "Das Artes e da Historia da Madeira" by Luis Clode he was the son of Pedro Moniz da Camara and Valentina Berenger, who in turn was the son of Filipa da Camara and Francisco Moniz (which makes him brother to your Joao). I do not have this line entered in my database as I have not yet found proof of its validity and I found a big booboo in this "Cabrais" section. For my line though, the Moniz Camara survived 3 male generations, then it was a mixture of Moniz or Moniz Camara all the way down to my grandmother whose maiden name was Moniz. But because this is a name one is supposed to be proud of carrying my mother passed it down to us and my sister to her children. So the legacy continues. Question, if you are a Rodrigues Camara why do you sign Fernandes? Luis Beal SURNAME CÂMARA - FIVE CENTURIES OLD - LEGACY OF A SAILOR www.geocities.com/Heartland/1074/sailor.htm <http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/1074/sailor.htm> The surname Câmara is now 527 years old. The first person entitled to use this family name was JOÃO GONÇALVES ZARCO, a Portuguese sailor who used to fight the moors alongside Africa's coast on service to His Majesty, the King of Portugal. In one of those battles, his ship went astray, arriving by chance in a group of islands located about 400 miles away from Morocco's coast. The largest island was covered by a luxuriant vegetation so Zarco named it Ilha da Madeira (Wood Island). On the shore of that island, he and his crew saw a number of sea lions (in ancient Portuguese "sea wolves") hidden in a cave and they called that place "Câmara de Lobos" (Cave of Wolves). On his return to Portugal, Zarco reported his discovery to His Majesty. The King then authorized Zarco and his fellows, Tristão Vaz and Bartholomeu Perestrello, to start colonization of these islands. Each of them was in charge of a "Capitania": Zarco in Funchal, Tristão in Machico, and Perestrello in Porto Santo. Due to the efficiency of those men, in a few decades s riches could be transferred to the Kingdom of Portugal. King Dom Afonso rewarded those men with noble titles. On the fourth of July of 1460, His Majesty Dom Afonso of Portugal issued a Royal Decree granting João Gonçalves Zarco the title of Knight and a Coat of Arms and changed his name to JOÃO GONÇALVES DA CÂMARA DE LOBOS. In spite of the Royal Decree, the family name "Gonçalves da Câmara de Lobos" did not last as such. Zarco's sons and daughters used either "Gonçalves da Câmara" or "Rodrigues da Câmara", being "Rodrigues" Zarco's wife's family name. In the generations that followed, the surname "Câmara" has been combined with many other family names, inaugurating new families, such as "Bittencourt da Câmara", "Cabral da Câmara", "Leme da Câmara", "Monis da Câmara", etc. The original surname "Gonçalves da Câmara" can still be found among descendants of the first Captain of Madeira Island. The surname "Câmara" made its way through the centuries to reach me on the 20th Century. There were moments when this family name was almost left aside. For instance, an ancestor of mine, a granddaughter of Zarco, CONSTANÇA RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, married Diogo Cabral. Their two daughters instead of taking their father's surname, preferred their mother's, "Câmara". They were Isabel and PHILIPPA DA CÂMARA. Isabel became a nun, so Philippa was the only one supposed to carry the family name ahead. Philippa da Câmara and her husband, Francisco Monis, had eight children. Six of them took their grandfather's family name "Cabral". The other two maintained the surname "Câmara", one combining it with "Monis" and my ancestor JOÃO RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA kept his mother's full family name. For the next two generations, surname "Câmara" was safe. But danger was close when, on the 2nd of December of 1606, MARIA MONIS DA CÂMARA, grand-daughter of João Rodrigues da Câmara, got married to Pero Berenguer de Leminhana, who was of Spanish origin. They had five sons and each of them adopted a different family name, combining their ancestors' surnames: João Berenguer de Andrada Pedro Berenguer de Leminhana Manoel d'Andrada de Leminhana Bartholomeu de Melo Berenguer and my ancestor FRANCISCO MONIS DA CÂMARA. Francisco's son, MANOEL MONIS DA CÂMARA, born in September, 1671, was responsible for taking the surname "Câmara" to Brazil. In approximately 1710, he left Madeira Island and headed for the New World. At that time, the search for gold was the main activity of Brazilian population. Majority of gold mines were located in Minas Gerais Province of Brazil, where Manoel Monis da Câmara and his cousin Manoel Bittencourt da Câmara settled. The latter found a gold mine and became one of the richest men of that time. However my ancestor, Manoel Monis da Câmara, was not that lucky. But it seems that he had some kind of assistance from his rich cousin so that he was able to buy a farm. He became a farmer and raised his children: Manoel, Anna, Rosa and Josepha. All of them which had the surname "Monis da Câmara". JOSEPHA MONIS DA CÂMARA got married to maderian Manoel Gomes Rodrigues in 1737. They had eleven children. The surname "Câmara" then faced its almost fatal crisis. Only one of Josepha's sons, Philippe, took surname "Câmara". He would sign a long and pompous family name: "Gomes Rodrigues da Câmara". Philippe Gomes Rodrigues da Câmara, a farmer and gold miner, died in August, 1818, leaving six sons and two daughters. Again, the surname "Câmara" was in danger. Only one of his sons, my ancestor JOSÉ GOMES RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, kept the family's full name which has been passed on to his descendants reaching the 20th Century. My grandfather ILLIDIO GOMES RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, who was born on the 30th of October of 1879 and died on the 20th of October of 1950, was the last one to bear such a long family name. My father, myself and my brothers still keep "Rodrigues Câmara". However my father's grandchildren only were give the surname "Câmara". It took me many years of genealogical research to align all links from me to the first Câmara, João Gonçalves Zarco, the sailor. What was supposed to be my inheritance from him after 500 years? If heritage was mathematical, after 17 generations, only 1/66124th of his characteristics could be detected on me. On the other hand, 1 /3rd of his original family name, "Gonçalves da CÂMARA de Lobos, is still found in my own family name... I am proud of this legacy. __._,_.___ José Fernandes Administrator Race Relations/Community and Cultural Services York Region District School Board Phone: 905 737 4353, Ext. 107 Phone: 416 969 7170, Ext 2409/107 jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Jose... have some ancestors in Ponta do Sol as well.... Do u have any link with your family tree to send t me, so i coulod check if we are related in some way :) Leandro -----Original Message----- From: jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 7.50PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Camara That confuses me too, Luis? Anyway, Katherine has already answered it. Although I am not a Camara, I am a Rodrigues as in Rodrigues de Pedro, from Ponta do Sol. José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis Beal Sent: February 19, 2007 1:47 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Camara It always fascinates me to see this name picking process. My ancestor was Pedro Moniz da Camara, married to Isabel de Andrade (my 10th great-grandparents). According to "Das Artes e da Historia da Madeira" by Luis Clode he was the son of Pedro Moniz da Camara and Valentina Berenger, who in turn was the son of Filipa da Camara and Francisco Moniz (which makes him brother to your Joao). I do not have this line entered in my database as I have not yet found proof of its validity and I found a big booboo in this "Cabrais" section. For my line though, the Moniz Camara survived 3 male generations, then it was a mixture of Moniz or Moniz Camara all the way down to my grandmother whose maiden name was Moniz. But because this is a name one is supposed to be proud of carrying my mother passed it down to us and my sister to her children. So the legacy continues. Question, if you are a Rodrigues Camara why do you sign Fernandes? Luis Beal SURNAME CÂMARA - FIVE CENTURIES OLD - LEGACY OF A SAILOR www.geocities.com/Heartland/1074/sailor.htm <http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/1074/sailor.htm> The surname Câmara is now 527 years old. The first person entitled to use this family name was JOÃO GONÇALVES ZARCO, a Portuguese sailor who used to fight the moors alongside Africa's coast on service to His Majesty, the King of Portugal. In one of those battles, his ship went astray, arriving by chance in a group of islands located about 400 miles away from Morocco's coast. The largest island was covered by a luxuriant vegetation so Zarco named it Ilha da Madeira (Wood Island). On the shore of that island, he and his crew saw a number of sea lions (in ancient Portuguese "sea wolves") hidden in a cave and they called that place "Câmara de Lobos" (Cave of Wolves). On his return to Portugal, Zarco reported his discovery to His Majesty. The King then authorized Zarco and his fellows, Tristão Vaz and Bartholomeu Perestrello, to start colonization of these islands. Each of them was in charge of a "Capitania": Zarco in Funchal, Tristão in Machico, and Perestrello in Porto Santo. Due to the efficiency of those men, in a few decades s riches could be transferred to the Kingdom of Portugal. King Dom Afonso rewarded those men with noble titles. On the fourth of July of 1460, His Majesty Dom Afonso of Portugal issued a Royal Decree granting João Gonçalves Zarco the title of Knight and a Coat of Arms and changed his name to JOÃO GONÇALVES DA CÂMARA DE LOBOS. In spite of the Royal Decree, the family name "Gonçalves da Câmara de Lobos" did not last as such. Zarco's sons and daughters used either "Gonçalves da Câmara" or "Rodrigues da Câmara", being "Rodrigues" Zarco's wife's family name. In the generations that followed, the surname "Câmara" has been combined with many other family names, inaugurating new families, such as "Bittencourt da Câmara", "Cabral da Câmara", "Leme da Câmara", "Monis da Câmara", etc. The original surname "Gonçalves da Câmara" can still be found among descendants of the first Captain of Madeira Island. The surname "Câmara" made its way through the centuries to reach me on the 20th Century. There were moments when this family name was almost left aside. For instance, an ancestor of mine, a granddaughter of Zarco, CONSTANÇA RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, married Diogo Cabral. Their two daughters instead of taking their father's surname, preferred their mother's, "Câmara". They were Isabel and PHILIPPA DA CÂMARA. Isabel became a nun, so Philippa was the only one supposed to carry the family name ahead. Philippa da Câmara and her husband, Francisco Monis, had eight children. Six of them took their grandfather's family name "Cabral". The other two maintained the surname "Câmara", one combining it with "Monis" and my ancestor JOÃO RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA kept his mother's full family name. For the next two generations, surname "Câmara" was safe. But danger was close when, on the 2nd of December of 1606, MARIA MONIS DA CÂMARA, grand-daughter of João Rodrigues da Câmara, got married to Pero Berenguer de Leminhana, who was of Spanish origin. They had five sons and each of them adopted a different family name, combining their ancestors' surnames: João Berenguer de Andrada Pedro Berenguer de Leminhana Manoel d'Andrada de Leminhana Bartholomeu de Melo Berenguer and my ancestor FRANCISCO MONIS DA CÂMARA. Francisco's son, MANOEL MONIS DA CÂMARA, born in September, 1671, was responsible for taking the surname "Câmara" to Brazil. In approximately 1710, he left Madeira Island and headed for the New World. At that time, the search for gold was the main activity of Brazilian population. Majority of gold mines were located in Minas Gerais Province of Brazil, where Manoel Monis da Câmara and his cousin Manoel Bittencourt da Câmara settled. The latter found a gold mine and became one of the richest men of that time. However my ancestor, Manoel Monis da Câmara, was not that lucky. But it seems that he had some kind of assistance from his rich cousin so that he was able to buy a farm. He became a farmer and raised his children: Manoel, Anna, Rosa and Josepha. All of them which had the surname "Monis da Câmara". JOSEPHA MONIS DA CÂMARA got married to maderian Manoel Gomes Rodrigues in 1737. They had eleven children. The surname "Câmara" then faced its almost fatal crisis. Only one of Josepha's sons, Philippe, took surname "Câmara". He would sign a long and pompous family name: "Gomes Rodrigues da Câmara". Philippe Gomes Rodrigues da Câmara, a farmer and gold miner, died in August, 1818, leaving six sons and two daughters. Again, the surname "Câmara" was in danger. Only one of his sons, my ancestor JOSÉ GOMES RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, kept the family's full name which has been passed on to his descendants reaching the 20th Century. My grandfather ILLIDIO GOMES RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, who was born on the 30th of October of 1879 and died on the 20th of October of 1950, was the last one to bear such a long family name. My father, myself and my brothers still keep "Rodrigues Câmara". However my father's grandchildren only were give the surname "Câmara". It took me many years of genealogical research to align all links from me to the first Câmara, João Gonçalves Zarco, the sailor. What was supposed to be my inheritance from him after 500 years? If heritage was mathematical, after 17 generations, only 1/66124th of his characteristics could be detected on me. On the other hand, 1 /3rd of his original family name, "Gonçalves da CÂMARA de Lobos, is still found in my own family name... I am proud of this legacy. __._,_.___ José Fernandes Administrator Race Relations/Community and Cultural Services York Region District School Board Phone: 905 737 4353, Ext. 107 Phone: 416 969 7170, Ext 2409/107 jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

That confuses me too, Luis? Anyway, Katherine has already answered it. Although I am not a Camara, I am a Rodrigues as in Rodrigues de Pedro, from Ponta do Sol. José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis Beal Sent: February 19, 2007 1:47 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Camara It always fascinates me to see this name picking process. My ancestor was Pedro Moniz da Camara, married to Isabel de Andrade (my 10th great-grandparents). According to "Das Artes e da Historia da Madeira" by Luis Clode he was the son of Pedro Moniz da Camara and Valentina Berenger, who in turn was the son of Filipa da Camara and Francisco Moniz (which makes him brother to your Joao). I do not have this line entered in my database as I have not yet found proof of its validity and I found a big booboo in this "Cabrais" section. For my line though, the Moniz Camara survived 3 male generations, then it was a mixture of Moniz or Moniz Camara all the way down to my grandmother whose maiden name was Moniz. But because this is a name one is supposed to be proud of carrying my mother passed it down to us and my sister to her children. So the legacy continues. Question, if you are a Rodrigues Camara why do you sign Fernandes? Luis Beal SURNAME CÂMARA - FIVE CENTURIES OLD - LEGACY OF A SAILOR www.geocities.com/Heartland/1074/sailor.htm <http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/1074/sailor.htm> The surname Câmara is now 527 years old. The first person entitled to use this family name was JOÃO GONÇALVES ZARCO, a Portuguese sailor who used to fight the moors alongside Africa's coast on service to His Majesty, the King of Portugal. In one of those battles, his ship went astray, arriving by chance in a group of islands located about 400 miles away from Morocco's coast. The largest island was covered by a luxuriant vegetation so Zarco named it Ilha da Madeira (Wood Island). On the shore of that island, he and his crew saw a number of sea lions (in ancient Portuguese "sea wolves") hidden in a cave and they called that place "Câmara de Lobos" (Cave of Wolves). On his return to Portugal, Zarco reported his discovery to His Majesty. The King then authorized Zarco and his fellows, Tristão Vaz and Bartholomeu Perestrello, to start colonization of these islands. Each of them was in charge of a "Capitania": Zarco in Funchal, Tristão in Machico, and Perestrello in Porto Santo. Due to the efficiency of those men, in a few decades s riches could be transferred to the Kingdom of Portugal. King Dom Afonso rewarded those men with noble titles. On the fourth of July of 1460, His Majesty Dom Afonso of Portugal issued a Royal Decree granting João Gonçalves Zarco the title of Knight and a Coat of Arms and changed his name to JOÃO GONÇALVES DA CÂMARA DE LOBOS. In spite of the Royal Decree, the family name "Gonçalves da Câmara de Lobos" did not last as such. Zarco's sons and daughters used either "Gonçalves da Câmara" or "Rodrigues da Câmara", being "Rodrigues" Zarco's wife's family name. In the generations that followed, the surname "Câmara" has been combined with many other family names, inaugurating new families, such as "Bittencourt da Câmara", "Cabral da Câmara", "Leme da Câmara", "Monis da Câmara", etc. The original surname "Gonçalves da Câmara" can still be found among descendants of the first Captain of Madeira Island. The surname "Câmara" made its way through the centuries to reach me on the 20th Century. There were moments when this family name was almost left aside. For instance, an ancestor of mine, a granddaughter of Zarco, CONSTANÇA RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, married Diogo Cabral. Their two daughters instead of taking their father's surname, preferred their mother's, "Câmara". They were Isabel and PHILIPPA DA CÂMARA. Isabel became a nun, so Philippa was the only one supposed to carry the family name ahead. Philippa da Câmara and her husband, Francisco Monis, had eight children. Six of them took their grandfather's family name "Cabral". The other two maintained the surname "Câmara", one combining it with "Monis" and my ancestor JOÃO RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA kept his mother's full family name. For the next two generations, surname "Câmara" was safe. But danger was close when, on the 2nd of December of 1606, MARIA MONIS DA CÂMARA, grand-daughter of João Rodrigues da Câmara, got married to Pero Berenguer de Leminhana, who was of Spanish origin. They had five sons and each of them adopted a different family name, combining their ancestors' surnames: João Berenguer de Andrada Pedro Berenguer de Leminhana Manoel d'Andrada de Leminhana Bartholomeu de Melo Berenguer and my ancestor FRANCISCO MONIS DA CÂMARA. Francisco's son, MANOEL MONIS DA CÂMARA, born in September, 1671, was responsible for taking the surname "Câmara" to Brazil. In approximately 1710, he left Madeira Island and headed for the New World. At that time, the search for gold was the main activity of Brazilian population. Majority of gold mines were located in Minas Gerais Province of Brazil, where Manoel Monis da Câmara and his cousin Manoel Bittencourt da Câmara settled. The latter found a gold mine and became one of the richest men of that time. However my ancestor, Manoel Monis da Câmara, was not that lucky. But it seems that he had some kind of assistance from his rich cousin so that he was able to buy a farm. He became a farmer and raised his children: Manoel, Anna, Rosa and Josepha. All of them which had the surname "Monis da Câmara". JOSEPHA MONIS DA CÂMARA got married to maderian Manoel Gomes Rodrigues in 1737. They had eleven children. The surname "Câmara" then faced its almost fatal crisis. Only one of Josepha's sons, Philippe, took surname "Câmara". He would sign a long and pompous family name: "Gomes Rodrigues da Câmara". Philippe Gomes Rodrigues da Câmara, a farmer and gold miner, died in August, 1818, leaving six sons and two daughters. Again, the surname "Câmara" was in danger. Only one of his sons, my ancestor JOSÉ GOMES RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, kept the family's full name which has been passed on to his descendants reaching the 20th Century. My grandfather ILLIDIO GOMES RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, who was born on the 30th of October of 1879 and died on the 20th of October of 1950, was the last one to bear such a long family name. My father, myself and my brothers still keep "Rodrigues Câmara". However my father's grandchildren only were give the surname "Câmara". It took me many years of genealogical research to align all links from me to the first Câmara, João Gonçalves Zarco, the sailor. What was supposed to be my inheritance from him after 500 years? If heritage was mathematical, after 17 generations, only 1/66124th of his characteristics could be detected on me. On the other hand, 1 /3rd of his original family name, "Gonçalves da CÂMARA de Lobos, is still found in my own family name... I am proud of this legacy. __._,_.___ José Fernandes Administrator Race Relations/Community and Cultural Services York Region District School Board Phone: 905 737 4353, Ext. 107 Phone: 416 969 7170, Ext 2409/107 jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The "Cabrais" history has no mention of Sebastiao but I do nt believe they have the full family info listed. Good luck. Luis "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator ----- Original Message ---- From: "gregobhte1@aol.com" <gregobhte1@aol.com> To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 10:54:41 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Camara Hi Luis and Jose.... One of my ancestors are Capitain Sebastiao Moniz da Camara that married Antonia Correia. He died bef 1684 and his family are from Svicente. His daugther is Dona Crispina de Meneses (born in 1658). o if you or anyone else have any oither info to add i really aprreciate :) Leandro -----Original Message----- From: luisbeal@yahoo.com To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 6.46PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Camara It always fascinates me to see this name picking process. My ancestor was Pedro Moniz da Camara, married to Isabel de Andrade (my 10th great-grandparents). According to "Das Artes e da Historia da Madeira" by Luis Clode he was the son of Pedro Moniz da Camara and Valentina Berenger, who in turn was the son of Filipa da Camara and Francisco Moniz (which makes him brother to your Joao). I do not have this line entered in my database as I have not yet found proof of its validity and I found a big booboo in this "Cabrais" section. For my line though, the Moniz Camara survived 3 male generations, then it was a mixture of Moniz or Moniz Camara all the way down to my grandmother whose maiden name was Moniz. But because this is a name one is supposed to be proud of carrying my mother passed it down to us and my sister to her children. So the legacy continues. Question, if you are a Rodrigues Camara why do you sign Fernandes? Luis Beal SURNAME CÂMARA - FIVE CENTURIES OLD - LEGACY OF A SAILOR www.geocities.com/Heartland/1074/sailor.htm <http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/1074/sailor.htm> The surname Câmara is now 527 years old. The first person entitled to use this family name was JOÃO GONÇALVES ZARCO, a Portuguese sailor who used to fight the moors alongside Africa's coast on service to His Majesty, the King of Portugal. In one of those battles, his ship went astray, arriving by chance in a group of islands located about 400 miles away from Morocco's coast. The largest island was covered by a luxuriant vegetation so Zarco named it Ilha da Madeira (Wood Island). On the shore of that island, he and his crew saw a number of sea lions (in ancient Portuguese "sea wolves") hidden in a cave and they called that place "Câmara de Lobos" (Cave of Wolves). On his return to Portugal, Zarco reported his discovery to His Majesty. The King then authorized Zarco and his fellows, Tristão Vaz and Bartholomeu Perestrello, to start colonization of these islands. Each of them was in charge of a "Capitania": Zarco in Funchal, Tristão in Machico, and Perestrello in Porto Santo. Due to the efficiency of those men, in a few decades s riches could be transferred to the Kingdom of Portugal. King Dom Afonso rewarded those men with noble titles. On the fourth of July of 1460, His Majesty Dom Afonso of Portugal issued a Royal Decree granting João Gonçalves Zarco the title of Knight and a Coat of Arms and changed his name to JOÃO GONÇALVES DA CÂMARA DE LOBOS. In spite of the Royal Decree, the family name "Gonçalves da Câmara de Lobos" did not last as such. Zarco's sons and daughters used either "Gonçalves da Câmara" or "Rodrigues da Câmara", being "Rodrigues" Zarco's wife's family name. In the generations that followed, the surname "Câmara" has been combined with many other family names, inaugurating new families, such as "Bittencourt da Câmara", "Cabral da Câmara", "Leme da Câmara", "Monis da Câmara", etc. The original surname "Gonçalves da Câmara" can still be found among descendants of the first Captain of Madeira Island. The surname "Câmara" made its way through the centuries to reach me on the 20th Century. There were moments when this family name was almost left aside. For instance, an ancestor of mine, a granddaughter of Zarco, CONSTANÇA RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, married Diogo Cabral. Their two daughters instead of taking their father's surname, preferred their mother's, "Câmara". They were Isabel and PHILIPPA DA CÂMARA. Isabel became a nun, so Philippa was the only one supposed to carry the family name ahead. Philippa da Câmara and her husband, Francisco Monis, had eight children. Six of them took their grandfather's family name "Cabral". The other two maintained the surname "Câmara", one combining it with "Monis" and my ancestor JOÃO RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA kept his mother's full family name. For the next two generations, surname "Câmara" was safe. But danger was close when, on the 2nd of December of 1606, MARIA MONIS DA CÂMARA, grand-daughter of João Rodrigues da Câmara, got married to Pero Berenguer de Leminhana, who was of Spanish origin. They had five sons and each of them adopted a different family name, combining their ancestors' surnames: João Berenguer de Andrada Pedro Berenguer de Leminhana Manoel d'Andrada de Leminhana Bartholomeu de Melo Berenguer and my ancestor FRANCISCO MONIS DA CÂMARA. Francisco's son, MANOEL MONIS DA CÂMARA, born in September, 1671, was responsible for taking the surname "Câmara" to Brazil. In approximately 1710, he left Madeira Island and headed for the New World. At that time, the search for gold was the main activity of Brazilian population. Majority of gold mines were located in Minas Gerais Province of Brazil, where Manoel Monis da Câmara and his cousin Manoel Bittencourt da Câmara settled. The latter found a gold mine and became one of the richest men of that time. However my ancestor, Manoel Monis da Câmara, was not that lucky. But it seems that he had some kind of assistance from his rich cousin so that he was able to buy a farm. He became a farmer and raised his children: Manoel, Anna, Rosa and Josepha. All of them which had the surname "Monis da Câmara". JOSEPHA MONIS DA CÂMARA got married to maderian Manoel Gomes Rodrigues in 1737. They had eleven children. The surname "Câmara" then faced its almost fatal crisis. Only one of Josepha's sons, Philippe, took surname "Câmara". He would sign a long and pompous family name: "Gomes Rodrigues da Câmara". Philippe Gomes Rodrigues da Câmara, a farmer and gold miner, died in August, 1818, leaving six sons and two daughters. Again, the surname "Câmara" was in danger. Only one of his sons, my ancestor JOSÉ GOMES RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, kept the family's full name which has been passed on to his descendants reaching the 20th Century. My grandfather ILLIDIO GOMES RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, who was born on the 30th of October of 1879 and died on the 20th of October of 1950, was the last one to bear such a long family name. My father, myself and my brothers still keep "Rodrigues Câmara". However my father's grandchildren only were give the surname "Câmara". It took me many years of genealogical research to align all links from me to the first Câmara, João Gonçalves Zarco, the sailor. What was supposed to be my inheritance from him after 500 years? If heritage was mathematical, after 17 generations, only 1/66124th of his characteristics could be detected on me. On the other hand, 1 /3rd of his original family name, "Gonçalves da CÂMARA de Lobos, is still found in my own family name... I am proud of this legacy. __._,_.___ José Fernandes Administrator Race Relations/Community and Cultural Services York Region District School Board Phone: 905 737 4353, Ext. 107 Phone: 416 969 7170, Ext 2409/107 jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091

Hi Luis and Jose.... One of my ancestors are Capitain Sebastiao Moniz da Camara that married Antonia Correia. He died bef 1684 and his family are from Svicente. His daugther is Dona Crispina de Meneses (born in 1658). o if you or anyone else have any oither info to add i really aprreciate :) Leandro -----Original Message----- From: luisbeal@yahoo.com To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 6.46PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Camara It always fascinates me to see this name picking process. My ancestor was Pedro Moniz da Camara, married to Isabel de Andrade (my 10th great-grandparents). According to "Das Artes e da Historia da Madeira" by Luis Clode he was the son of Pedro Moniz da Camara and Valentina Berenger, who in turn was the son of Filipa da Camara and Francisco Moniz (which makes him brother to your Joao). I do not have this line entered in my database as I have not yet found proof of its validity and I found a big booboo in this "Cabrais" section. For my line though, the Moniz Camara survived 3 male generations, then it was a mixture of Moniz or Moniz Camara all the way down to my grandmother whose maiden name was Moniz. But because this is a name one is supposed to be proud of carrying my mother passed it down to us and my sister to her children. So the legacy continues. Question, if you are a Rodrigues Camara why do you sign Fernandes? Luis Beal SURNAME CÂMARA - FIVE CENTURIES OLD - LEGACY OF A SAILOR www.geocities.com/Heartland/1074/sailor.htm <http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/1074/sailor.htm> The surname Câmara is now 527 years old. The first person entitled to use this family name was JOÃO GONÇALVES ZARCO, a Portuguese sailor who used to fight the moors alongside Africa's coast on service to His Majesty, the King of Portugal. In one of those battles, his ship went astray, arriving by chance in a group of islands located about 400 miles away from Morocco's coast. The largest island was covered by a luxuriant vegetation so Zarco named it Ilha da Madeira (Wood Island). On the shore of that island, he and his crew saw a number of sea lions (in ancient Portuguese "sea wolves") hidden in a cave and they called that place "Câmara de Lobos" (Cave of Wolves). On his return to Portugal, Zarco reported his discovery to His Majesty. The King then authorized Zarco and his fellows, Tristão Vaz and Bartholomeu Perestrello, to start colonization of these islands. Each of them was in charge of a "Capitania": Zarco in Funchal, Tristão in Machico, and Perestrello in Porto Santo. Due to the efficiency of those men, in a few decades s riches could be transferred to the Kingdom of Portugal. King Dom Afonso rewarded those men with noble titles. On the fourth of July of 1460, His Majesty Dom Afonso of Portugal issued a Royal Decree granting João Gonçalves Zarco the title of Knight and a Coat of Arms and changed his name to JOÃO GONÇALVES DA CÂMARA DE LOBOS. In spite of the Royal Decree, the family name "Gonçalves da Câmara de Lobos" did not last as such. Zarco's sons and daughters used either "Gonçalves da Câmara" or "Rodrigues da Câmara", being "Rodrigues" Zarco's wife's family name. In the generations that followed, the surname "Câmara" has been combined with many other family names, inaugurating new families, such as "Bittencourt da Câmara", "Cabral da Câmara", "Leme da Câmara", "Monis da Câmara", etc. The original surname "Gonçalves da Câmara" can still be found among descendants of the first Captain of Madeira Island. The surname "Câmara" made its way through the centuries to reach me on the 20th Century. There were moments when this family name was almost left aside. For instance, an ancestor of mine, a granddaughter of Zarco, CONSTANÇA RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, married Diogo Cabral. Their two daughters instead of taking their father's surname, preferred their mother's, "Câmara". They were Isabel and PHILIPPA DA CÂMARA. Isabel became a nun, so Philippa was the only one supposed to carry the family name ahead. Philippa da Câmara and her husband, Francisco Monis, had eight children. Six of them took their grandfather's family name "Cabral". The other two maintained the surname "Câmara", one combining it with "Monis" and my ancestor JOÃO RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA kept his mother's full family name. For the next two generations, surname "Câmara" was safe. But danger was close when, on the 2nd of December of 1606, MARIA MONIS DA CÂMARA, grand-daughter of João Rodrigues da Câmara, got married to Pero Berenguer de Leminhana, who was of Spanish origin. They had five sons and each of them adopted a different family name, combining their ancestors' surnames: João Berenguer de Andrada Pedro Berenguer de Leminhana Manoel d'Andrada de Leminhana Bartholomeu de Melo Berenguer and my ancestor FRANCISCO MONIS DA CÂMARA. Francisco's son, MANOEL MONIS DA CÂMARA, born in September, 1671, was responsible for taking the surname "Câmara" to Brazil. In approximately 1710, he left Madeira Island and headed for the New World. At that time, the search for gold was the main activity of Brazilian population. Majority of gold mines were located in Minas Gerais Province of Brazil, where Manoel Monis da Câmara and his cousin Manoel Bittencourt da Câmara settled. The latter found a gold mine and became one of the richest men of that time. However my ancestor, Manoel Monis da Câmara, was not that lucky. But it seems that he had some kind of assistance from his rich cousin so that he was able to buy a farm. He became a farmer and raised his children: Manoel, Anna, Rosa and Josepha. All of them which had the surname "Monis da Câmara". JOSEPHA MONIS DA CÂMARA got married to maderian Manoel Gomes Rodrigues in 1737. They had eleven children. The surname "Câmara" then faced its almost fatal crisis. Only one of Josepha's sons, Philippe, took surname "Câmara". He would sign a long and pompous family name: "Gomes Rodrigues da Câmara". Philippe Gomes Rodrigues da Câmara, a farmer and gold miner, died in August, 1818, leaving six sons and two daughters. Again, the surname "Câmara" was in danger. Only one of his sons, my ancestor JOSÉ GOMES RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, kept the family's full name which has been passed on to his descendants reaching the 20th Century. My grandfather ILLIDIO GOMES RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, who was born on the 30th of October of 1879 and died on the 20th of October of 1950, was the last one to bear such a long family name. My father, myself and my brothers still keep "Rodrigues Câmara". However my father's grandchildren only were give the surname "Câmara". It took me many years of genealogical research to align all links from me to the first Câmara, João Gonçalves Zarco, the sailor. What was supposed to be my inheritance from him after 500 years? If heritage was mathematical, after 17 generations, only 1/66124th of his characteristics could be detected on me. On the other hand, 1 /3rd of his original family name, "Gonçalves da CÂMARA de Lobos, is still found in my own family name... I am proud of this legacy. __._,_.___ José Fernandes Administrator Race Relations/Community and Cultural Services York Region District School Board Phone: 905 737 4353, Ext. 107 Phone: 416 969 7170, Ext 2409/107 jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Oh, that makes sense. I did not check the link out yet or I would have noticed that. :) Thanks, Luis "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator ----- Original Message ---- From: Katherine Hope Borges <kvjjmmborges@msn.com> To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 11:01:13 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Camara <snip> >Question, if you are a Rodrigues Camara why do you sign Fernandes? >Luis Beal > <snip> Hi Luis, José didn't write the Camara story, he just reposted it from the Saudades site. Best regards, Katherine ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265

<snip> >Question, if you are a Rodrigues Camara why do you sign Fernandes? >Luis Beal > <snip> Hi Luis, José didn't write the Camara story, he just reposted it from the Saudades site. Best regards, Katherine

It always fascinates me to see this name picking process. My ancestor was Pedro Moniz da Camara, married to Isabel de Andrade (my 10th great-grandparents). According to "Das Artes e da Historia da Madeira" by Luis Clode he was the son of Pedro Moniz da Camara and Valentina Berenger, who in turn was the son of Filipa da Camara and Francisco Moniz (which makes him brother to your Joao). I do not have this line entered in my database as I have not yet found proof of its validity and I found a big booboo in this "Cabrais" section. For my line though, the Moniz Camara survived 3 male generations, then it was a mixture of Moniz or Moniz Camara all the way down to my grandmother whose maiden name was Moniz. But because this is a name one is supposed to be proud of carrying my mother passed it down to us and my sister to her children. So the legacy continues. Question, if you are a Rodrigues Camara why do you sign Fernandes? Luis Beal SURNAME CÂMARA - FIVE CENTURIES OLD - LEGACY OF A SAILOR www.geocities.com/Heartland/1074/sailor.htm <http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/1074/sailor.htm> The surname Câmara is now 527 years old. The first person entitled to use this family name was JOÃO GONÇALVES ZARCO, a Portuguese sailor who used to fight the moors alongside Africa's coast on service to His Majesty, the King of Portugal. In one of those battles, his ship went astray, arriving by chance in a group of islands located about 400 miles away from Morocco's coast. The largest island was covered by a luxuriant vegetation so Zarco named it Ilha da Madeira (Wood Island). On the shore of that island, he and his crew saw a number of sea lions (in ancient Portuguese "sea wolves") hidden in a cave and they called that place "Câmara de Lobos" (Cave of Wolves). On his return to Portugal, Zarco reported his discovery to His Majesty. The King then authorized Zarco and his fellows, Tristão Vaz and Bartholomeu Perestrello, to start colonization of these islands. Each of them was in charge of a "Capitania": Zarco in Funchal, Tristão in Machico, and Perestrello in Porto Santo. Due to the efficiency of those men, in a few decades s riches could be transferred to the Kingdom of Portugal. King Dom Afonso rewarded those men with noble titles. On the fourth of July of 1460, His Majesty Dom Afonso of Portugal issued a Royal Decree granting João Gonçalves Zarco the title of Knight and a Coat of Arms and changed his name to JOÃO GONÇALVES DA CÂMARA DE LOBOS. In spite of the Royal Decree, the family name "Gonçalves da Câmara de Lobos" did not last as such. Zarco's sons and daughters used either "Gonçalves da Câmara" or "Rodrigues da Câmara", being "Rodrigues" Zarco's wife's family name. In the generations that followed, the surname "Câmara" has been combined with many other family names, inaugurating new families, such as "Bittencourt da Câmara", "Cabral da Câmara", "Leme da Câmara", "Monis da Câmara", etc. The original surname "Gonçalves da Câmara" can still be found among descendants of the first Captain of Madeira Island. The surname "Câmara" made its way through the centuries to reach me on the 20th Century. There were moments when this family name was almost left aside. For instance, an ancestor of mine, a granddaughter of Zarco, CONSTANÇA RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, married Diogo Cabral. Their two daughters instead of taking their father's surname, preferred their mother's, "Câmara". They were Isabel and PHILIPPA DA CÂMARA. Isabel became a nun, so Philippa was the only one supposed to carry the family name ahead. Philippa da Câmara and her husband, Francisco Monis, had eight children. Six of them took their grandfather's family name "Cabral". The other two maintained the surname "Câmara", one combining it with "Monis" and my ancestor JOÃO RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA kept his mother's full family name. For the next two generations, surname "Câmara" was safe. But danger was close when, on the 2nd of December of 1606, MARIA MONIS DA CÂMARA, grand-daughter of João Rodrigues da Câmara, got married to Pero Berenguer de Leminhana, who was of Spanish origin. They had five sons and each of them adopted a different family name, combining their ancestors' surnames: João Berenguer de Andrada Pedro Berenguer de Leminhana Manoel d'Andrada de Leminhana Bartholomeu de Melo Berenguer and my ancestor FRANCISCO MONIS DA CÂMARA. Francisco's son, MANOEL MONIS DA CÂMARA, born in September, 1671, was responsible for taking the surname "Câmara" to Brazil. In approximately 1710, he left Madeira Island and headed for the New World. At that time, the search for gold was the main activity of Brazilian population. Majority of gold mines were located in Minas Gerais Province of Brazil, where Manoel Monis da Câmara and his cousin Manoel Bittencourt da Câmara settled. The latter found a gold mine and became one of the richest men of that time. However my ancestor, Manoel Monis da Câmara, was not that lucky. But it seems that he had some kind of assistance from his rich cousin so that he was able to buy a farm. He became a farmer and raised his children: Manoel, Anna, Rosa and Josepha. All of them which had the surname "Monis da Câmara". JOSEPHA MONIS DA CÂMARA got married to maderian Manoel Gomes Rodrigues in 1737. They had eleven children. The surname "Câmara" then faced its almost fatal crisis. Only one of Josepha's sons, Philippe, took surname "Câmara". He would sign a long and pompous family name: "Gomes Rodrigues da Câmara". Philippe Gomes Rodrigues da Câmara, a farmer and gold miner, died in August, 1818, leaving six sons and two daughters. Again, the surname "Câmara" was in danger. Only one of his sons, my ancestor JOSÉ GOMES RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, kept the family's full name which has been passed on to his descendants reaching the 20th Century. My grandfather ILLIDIO GOMES RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, who was born on the 30th of October of 1879 and died on the 20th of October of 1950, was the last one to bear such a long family name. My father, myself and my brothers still keep "Rodrigues Câmara". However my father's grandchildren only were give the surname "Câmara". It took me many years of genealogical research to align all links from me to the first Câmara, João Gonçalves Zarco, the sailor. What was supposed to be my inheritance from him after 500 years? If heritage was mathematical, after 17 generations, only 1/66124th of his characteristics could be detected on me. On the other hand, 1 /3rd of his original family name, "Gonçalves da CÂMARA de Lobos, is still found in my own family name... I am proud of this legacy. __._,_.___ José Fernandes Administrator Race Relations/Community and Cultural Services York Region District School Board Phone: 905 737 4353, Ext. 107 Phone: 416 969 7170, Ext 2409/107 jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/

Cece, Ed and I have been in contact and that's why I thought of sending this. English paternal ancestry is very possible. There was a very sizeable British community in Madeira since the late 1600's and on until WWII. Many families, including mine, had links to these families. Some families have remained, i.e. Blandy, Leacock, Phelps, Cook, etc. As you can imagine, these families were merchants and wealthy. Well, at least they kept servants. Many young women, from the countryside, served in their house. You can imagine what happened after... Also during the early 1800's British detachments were headquartered in the island. They pretty well governed Madeira for a decade. Soldiers are soldiers, with all due respect. I have mentioned at some time that an English woman writing in the mid-1800 mentioned that in Santo da Serra and Camacha there were Scottish detachments posted there, and that she attributed the many blonde, red-haired people to that fact. Finally, Funchal was a port city with many sailors. I don't know but the 19th century in Madeira was very tough. A lot of poverty and hunger and total misery. Men left in droves for Demerara, Brazil, America and so on. Women stayed behind in total poverty. Some men never bothered to return or died. It was a tough time to be a woman. It actually only got better after 1975. I believe the social fabric fell apart, but if you made a mistake that lasted a whole lifetime. You may have noticed how protective our grandparents were of their daughters. This in part explains why. That is not pretty but that is our history. Have a nice day. José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Cece Camara Sent: February 19, 2007 9:49 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Camara Jose, Yes, I've seen it many times over...and it frustrates me every time I see it! In our research we have found MANY more orphans named Camara than those that are given/taken the name ancestrally. (not sure that is a word...LOL) As you probably know, Ed's paternal Camara descendancy is from an orphan given the name Camara... our great grandfather Egidio da Camara. There were many other orphans who were given the name (oops..."chose the name" per Luis). And as you also may know by reading the posts here, Ed IS also maternally descended from Zarco. Also, you might be aware, that Ed's yDNA is part of your Madeira DNA page. We find it rather amusing that the only close matches he's had on any of his yDNA have been to people of British/English descent...so it appears to us, that somewhere along the way this orphan had a paternal English ancestor. Care to comment? Cece -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 7:55 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Camara Ed and Cecce, You might have seen this already. Rufina posted this on the saudades site. I thought it might be of interest to you. José SURNAME CÂMARA - FIVE CENTURIES OLD - LEGACY OF A SAILOR www.geocities.com/Heartland/1074/sailor.htm <http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/1074/sailor.htm> The surname Câmara is now 527 years old. The first person entitled to use this family name was JOÃO GONÇALVES ZARCO, a Portuguese sailor who used to fight the moors alongside Africa's coast on service to His Majesty, the King of Portugal. In one of those battles, his ship went astray, arriving by chance in a group of islands located about 400 miles away from Morocco's coast. The largest island was covered by a luxuriant vegetation so Zarco named it Ilha da Madeira (Wood Island). On the shore of that island, he and his crew saw a number of sea lions (in ancient Portuguese "sea wolves") hidden in a cave and they called that place "Câmara de Lobos" (Cave of Wolves). On his return to Portugal, Zarco reported his discovery to His Majesty. The King then authorized Zarco and his fellows, Tristão Vaz and Bartholomeu Perestrello, to start colonization of these islands. Each of them was in charge of a "Capitania": Zarco in Funchal, Tristão in Machico, and Perestrello in Porto Santo. Due to the efficiency of those men, in a few decades s riches could be transferred to the Kingdom of Portugal. King Dom Afonso rewarded those men with noble titles. On the fourth of July of 1460, His Majesty Dom Afonso of Portugal issued a Royal Decree granting João Gonçalves Zarco the title of Knight and a Coat of Arms and changed his name to JOÃO GONÇALVES DA CÂMARA DE LOBOS. In spite of the Royal Decree, the family name "Gonçalves da Câmara de Lobos" did not last as such. Zarco's sons and daughters used either "Gonçalves da Câmara" or "Rodrigues da Câmara", being "Rodrigues" Zarco's wife's family name. In the generations that followed, the surname "Câmara" has been combined with many other family names, inaugurating new families, such as "Bittencourt da Câmara", "Cabral da Câmara", "Leme da Câmara", "Monis da Câmara", etc. The original surname "Gonçalves da Câmara" can still be found among descendants of the first Captain of Madeira Island. The surname "Câmara" made its way through the centuries to reach me on the 20th Century. There were moments when this family name was almost left aside. For instance, an ancestor of mine, a granddaughter of Zarco, CONSTANÇA RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, married Diogo Cabral. Their two daughters instead of taking their father's surname, preferred their mother's, "Câmara". They were Isabel and PHILIPPA DA CÂMARA. Isabel became a nun, so Philippa was the only one supposed to carry the family name ahead. Philippa da Câmara and her husband, Francisco Monis, had eight children. Six of them took their grandfather's family name "Cabral". The other two maintained the surname "Câmara", one combining it with "Monis" and my ancestor JOÃO RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA kept his mother's full family name. For the next two generations, surname "Câmara" was safe. But danger was close when, on the 2nd of December of 1606, MARIA MONIS DA CÂMARA, grand-daughter of João Rodrigues da Câmara, got married to Pero Berenguer de Leminhana, who was of Spanish origin. They had five sons and each of them adopted a different family name, combining their ancestors' surnames: João Berenguer de Andrada Pedro Berenguer de Leminhana Manoel d'Andrada de Leminhana Bartholomeu de Melo Berenguer and my ancestor FRANCISCO MONIS DA CÂMARA. Francisco's son, MANOEL MONIS DA CÂMARA, born in September, 1671, was responsible for taking the surname "Câmara" to Brazil. In approximately 1710, he left Madeira Island and headed for the New World. At that time, the search for gold was the main activity of Brazilian population. Majority of gold mines were located in Minas Gerais Province of Brazil, where Manoel Monis da Câmara and his cousin Manoel Bittencourt da Câmara settled. The latter found a gold mine and became one of the richest men of that time. However my ancestor, Manoel Monis da Câmara, was not that lucky. But it seems that he had some kind of assistance from his rich cousin so that he was able to buy a farm. He became a farmer and raised his children: Manoel, Anna, Rosa and Josepha. All of them which had the surname "Monis da Câmara". JOSEPHA MONIS DA CÂMARA got married to maderian Manoel Gomes Rodrigues in 1737. They had eleven children. The surname "Câmara" then faced its almost fatal crisis. Only one of Josepha's sons, Philippe, took surname "Câmara". He would sign a long and pompous family name: "Gomes Rodrigues da Câmara". Philippe Gomes Rodrigues da Câmara, a farmer and gold miner, died in August, 1818, leaving six sons and two daughters. Again, the surname "Câmara" was in danger. Only one of his sons, my ancestor JOSÉ GOMES RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, kept the family's full name which has been passed on to his descendants reaching the 20th Century. My grandfather ILLIDIO GOMES RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, who was born on the 30th of October of 1879 and died on the 20th of October of 1950, was the last one to bear such a long family name. My father, myself and my brothers still keep "Rodrigues Câmara". However my father's grandchildren only were give the surname "Câmara". It took me many years of genealogical research to align all links from me to the first Câmara, João Gonçalves Zarco, the sailor. What was supposed to be my inheritance from him after 500 years? If heritage was mathematical, after 17 generations, only 1/66124th of his characteristics could be detected on me. On the other hand, 1 /3rd of his original family name, "Gonçalves da CÂMARA de Lobos, is still found in my own family name... I am proud of this legacy. __._,_.___ José Fernandes Administrator Race Relations/Community and Cultural Services York Region District School Board Phone: 905 737 4353, Ext. 107 Phone: 416 969 7170, Ext 2409/107 jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ed and Cecce, You might have seen this already. Rufina posted this on the saudades site. I thought it might be of interest to you. José SURNAME CÂMARA - FIVE CENTURIES OLD - LEGACY OF A SAILOR www.geocities.com/Heartland/1074/sailor.htm <http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/1074/sailor.htm> The surname Câmara is now 527 years old. The first person entitled to use this family name was JOÃO GONÇALVES ZARCO, a Portuguese sailor who used to fight the moors alongside Africa's coast on service to His Majesty, the King of Portugal. In one of those battles, his ship went astray, arriving by chance in a group of islands located about 400 miles away from Morocco's coast. The largest island was covered by a luxuriant vegetation so Zarco named it Ilha da Madeira (Wood Island). On the shore of that island, he and his crew saw a number of sea lions (in ancient Portuguese "sea wolves") hidden in a cave and they called that place "Câmara de Lobos" (Cave of Wolves). On his return to Portugal, Zarco reported his discovery to His Majesty. The King then authorized Zarco and his fellows, Tristão Vaz and Bartholomeu Perestrello, to start colonization of these islands. Each of them was in charge of a "Capitania": Zarco in Funchal, Tristão in Machico, and Perestrello in Porto Santo. Due to the efficiency of those men, in a few decades s riches could be transferred to the Kingdom of Portugal. King Dom Afonso rewarded those men with noble titles. On the fourth of July of 1460, His Majesty Dom Afonso of Portugal issued a Royal Decree granting João Gonçalves Zarco the title of Knight and a Coat of Arms and changed his name to JOÃO GONÇALVES DA CÂMARA DE LOBOS. In spite of the Royal Decree, the family name "Gonçalves da Câmara de Lobos" did not last as such. Zarco's sons and daughters used either "Gonçalves da Câmara" or "Rodrigues da Câmara", being "Rodrigues" Zarco's wife's family name. In the generations that followed, the surname "Câmara" has been combined with many other family names, inaugurating new families, such as "Bittencourt da Câmara", "Cabral da Câmara", "Leme da Câmara", "Monis da Câmara", etc. The original surname "Gonçalves da Câmara" can still be found among descendants of the first Captain of Madeira Island. The surname "Câmara" made its way through the centuries to reach me on the 20th Century. There were moments when this family name was almost left aside. For instance, an ancestor of mine, a granddaughter of Zarco, CONSTANÇA RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, married Diogo Cabral. Their two daughters instead of taking their father's surname, preferred their mother's, "Câmara". They were Isabel and PHILIPPA DA CÂMARA. Isabel became a nun, so Philippa was the only one supposed to carry the family name ahead. Philippa da Câmara and her husband, Francisco Monis, had eight children. Six of them took their grandfather's family name "Cabral". The other two maintained the surname "Câmara", one combining it with "Monis" and my ancestor JOÃO RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA kept his mother's full family name. For the next two generations, surname "Câmara" was safe. But danger was close when, on the 2nd of December of 1606, MARIA MONIS DA CÂMARA, grand-daughter of João Rodrigues da Câmara, got married to Pero Berenguer de Leminhana, who was of Spanish origin. They had five sons and each of them adopted a different family name, combining their ancestors' surnames: João Berenguer de Andrada Pedro Berenguer de Leminhana Manoel d'Andrada de Leminhana Bartholomeu de Melo Berenguer and my ancestor FRANCISCO MONIS DA CÂMARA. Francisco's son, MANOEL MONIS DA CÂMARA, born in September, 1671, was responsible for taking the surname "Câmara" to Brazil. In approximately 1710, he left Madeira Island and headed for the New World. At that time, the search for gold was the main activity of Brazilian population. Majority of gold mines were located in Minas Gerais Province of Brazil, where Manoel Monis da Câmara and his cousin Manoel Bittencourt da Câmara settled. The latter found a gold mine and became one of the richest men of that time. However my ancestor, Manoel Monis da Câmara, was not that lucky. But it seems that he had some kind of assistance from his rich cousin so that he was able to buy a farm. He became a farmer and raised his children: Manoel, Anna, Rosa and Josepha. All of them which had the surname "Monis da Câmara". JOSEPHA MONIS DA CÂMARA got married to maderian Manoel Gomes Rodrigues in 1737. They had eleven children. The surname "Câmara" then faced its almost fatal crisis. Only one of Josepha's sons, Philippe, took surname "Câmara". He would sign a long and pompous family name: "Gomes Rodrigues da Câmara". Philippe Gomes Rodrigues da Câmara, a farmer and gold miner, died in August, 1818, leaving six sons and two daughters. Again, the surname "Câmara" was in danger. Only one of his sons, my ancestor JOSÉ GOMES RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, kept the family's full name which has been passed on to his descendants reaching the 20th Century. My grandfather ILLIDIO GOMES RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, who was born on the 30th of October of 1879 and died on the 20th of October of 1950, was the last one to bear such a long family name. My father, myself and my brothers still keep "Rodrigues Câmara". However my father's grandchildren only were give the surname "Câmara". It took me many years of genealogical research to align all links from me to the first Câmara, João Gonçalves Zarco, the sailor. What was supposed to be my inheritance from him after 500 years? If heritage was mathematical, after 17 generations, only 1/66124th of his characteristics could be detected on me. On the other hand, 1 /3rd of his original family name, "Gonçalves da CÂMARA de Lobos, is still found in my own family name... I am proud of this legacy. __._,_.___ José Fernandes Administrator Race Relations/Community and Cultural Services York Region District School Board Phone: 905 737 4353, Ext. 107 Phone: 416 969 7170, Ext 2409/107 jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca

Jose, Yes, I've seen it many times over...and it frustrates me every time I see it! In our research we have found MANY more orphans named Camara than those that are given/taken the name ancestrally. (not sure that is a word...LOL) As you probably know, Ed's paternal Camara descendancy is from an orphan given the name Camara... our great grandfather Egidio da Camara. There were many other orphans who were given the name (oops..."chose the name" per Luis). And as you also may know by reading the posts here, Ed IS also maternally descended from Zarco. Also, you might be aware, that Ed's yDNA is part of your Madeira DNA page. We find it rather amusing that the only close matches he's had on any of his yDNA have been to people of British/English descent...so it appears to us, that somewhere along the way this orphan had a paternal English ancestor. Care to comment? Cece -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 7:55 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Camara Ed and Cecce, You might have seen this already. Rufina posted this on the saudades site. I thought it might be of interest to you. José SURNAME CÂMARA - FIVE CENTURIES OLD - LEGACY OF A SAILOR www.geocities.com/Heartland/1074/sailor.htm <http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/1074/sailor.htm> The surname Câmara is now 527 years old. The first person entitled to use this family name was JOÃO GONÇALVES ZARCO, a Portuguese sailor who used to fight the moors alongside Africa's coast on service to His Majesty, the King of Portugal. In one of those battles, his ship went astray, arriving by chance in a group of islands located about 400 miles away from Morocco's coast. The largest island was covered by a luxuriant vegetation so Zarco named it Ilha da Madeira (Wood Island). On the shore of that island, he and his crew saw a number of sea lions (in ancient Portuguese "sea wolves") hidden in a cave and they called that place "Câmara de Lobos" (Cave of Wolves). On his return to Portugal, Zarco reported his discovery to His Majesty. The King then authorized Zarco and his fellows, Tristão Vaz and Bartholomeu Perestrello, to start colonization of these islands. Each of them was in charge of a "Capitania": Zarco in Funchal, Tristão in Machico, and Perestrello in Porto Santo. Due to the efficiency of those men, in a few decades s riches could be transferred to the Kingdom of Portugal. King Dom Afonso rewarded those men with noble titles. On the fourth of July of 1460, His Majesty Dom Afonso of Portugal issued a Royal Decree granting João Gonçalves Zarco the title of Knight and a Coat of Arms and changed his name to JOÃO GONÇALVES DA CÂMARA DE LOBOS. In spite of the Royal Decree, the family name "Gonçalves da Câmara de Lobos" did not last as such. Zarco's sons and daughters used either "Gonçalves da Câmara" or "Rodrigues da Câmara", being "Rodrigues" Zarco's wife's family name. In the generations that followed, the surname "Câmara" has been combined with many other family names, inaugurating new families, such as "Bittencourt da Câmara", "Cabral da Câmara", "Leme da Câmara", "Monis da Câmara", etc. The original surname "Gonçalves da Câmara" can still be found among descendants of the first Captain of Madeira Island. The surname "Câmara" made its way through the centuries to reach me on the 20th Century. There were moments when this family name was almost left aside. For instance, an ancestor of mine, a granddaughter of Zarco, CONSTANÇA RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, married Diogo Cabral. Their two daughters instead of taking their father's surname, preferred their mother's, "Câmara". They were Isabel and PHILIPPA DA CÂMARA. Isabel became a nun, so Philippa was the only one supposed to carry the family name ahead. Philippa da Câmara and her husband, Francisco Monis, had eight children. Six of them took their grandfather's family name "Cabral". The other two maintained the surname "Câmara", one combining it with "Monis" and my ancestor JOÃO RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA kept his mother's full family name. For the next two generations, surname "Câmara" was safe. But danger was close when, on the 2nd of December of 1606, MARIA MONIS DA CÂMARA, grand-daughter of João Rodrigues da Câmara, got married to Pero Berenguer de Leminhana, who was of Spanish origin. They had five sons and each of them adopted a different family name, combining their ancestors' surnames: João Berenguer de Andrada Pedro Berenguer de Leminhana Manoel d'Andrada de Leminhana Bartholomeu de Melo Berenguer and my ancestor FRANCISCO MONIS DA CÂMARA. Francisco's son, MANOEL MONIS DA CÂMARA, born in September, 1671, was responsible for taking the surname "Câmara" to Brazil. In approximately 1710, he left Madeira Island and headed for the New World. At that time, the search for gold was the main activity of Brazilian population. Majority of gold mines were located in Minas Gerais Province of Brazil, where Manoel Monis da Câmara and his cousin Manoel Bittencourt da Câmara settled. The latter found a gold mine and became one of the richest men of that time. However my ancestor, Manoel Monis da Câmara, was not that lucky. But it seems that he had some kind of assistance from his rich cousin so that he was able to buy a farm. He became a farmer and raised his children: Manoel, Anna, Rosa and Josepha. All of them which had the surname "Monis da Câmara". JOSEPHA MONIS DA CÂMARA got married to maderian Manoel Gomes Rodrigues in 1737. They had eleven children. The surname "Câmara" then faced its almost fatal crisis. Only one of Josepha's sons, Philippe, took surname "Câmara". He would sign a long and pompous family name: "Gomes Rodrigues da Câmara". Philippe Gomes Rodrigues da Câmara, a farmer and gold miner, died in August, 1818, leaving six sons and two daughters. Again, the surname "Câmara" was in danger. Only one of his sons, my ancestor JOSÉ GOMES RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, kept the family's full name which has been passed on to his descendants reaching the 20th Century. My grandfather ILLIDIO GOMES RODRIGUES DA CÂMARA, who was born on the 30th of October of 1879 and died on the 20th of October of 1950, was the last one to bear such a long family name. My father, myself and my brothers still keep "Rodrigues Câmara". However my father's grandchildren only were give the surname "Câmara". It took me many years of genealogical research to align all links from me to the first Câmara, João Gonçalves Zarco, the sailor. What was supposed to be my inheritance from him after 500 years? If heritage was mathematical, after 17 generations, only 1/66124th of his characteristics could be detected on me. On the other hand, 1 /3rd of his original family name, "Gonçalves da CÂMARA de Lobos, is still found in my own family name... I am proud of this legacy. __._,_.___ José Fernandes Administrator Race Relations/Community and Cultural Services York Region District School Board Phone: 905 737 4353, Ext. 107 Phone: 416 969 7170, Ext 2409/107 jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Yes, Pat. ________________________________ From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of Patricia Corbera Sent: Fri 2/16/2007 5:40 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo José, Are you the same Jose A. Fernandes the administrator of the Madeira DNA Project located at this website address ~ http://www.ourfamilyorigins.com/madeira/dna.htm ? Pat Silva Corbera "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> wrote: Sorry, I did my bit. I didn't just ignore it. May be that will cleanse my soul! I really don't want another list, and definitely not one just about Portugal. My interest is Madeira. But I will make a commitment to post items about history and culture. Others can do other themes. We can all learn form each other. I recommend that we can also post about the experiences of Madeirans in the Diaspora. That too is our history. It won't warm up around here until July! Just kidding. José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis Beal Sent: February 15, 2007 6:53 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo I was speaking from experience not generalizing. I was born and raised in Portugal, I left when I was 21. In my hometown there were several bands of gypsies who lived in different parts of town. They all wore, looked, and yes, smelled, very much the same. They loved gathering around the fire on the streets. I remember them since the time I was 4 years old. When they became more prosperous and bought houses they still built fires in their front yards and gathered around them. Their smell came from the combination of fire and body odor, and it was still the same after living in houses with plumbing. I have traveled to different parts of Portugal and they looked no different than those from my hometown. I was there two years ago in the street market in Carcavelos and I could easily tell you which people were gypsies. I have never heard them being refered to as Roma though. --"If I repeated to you, as truth, comments that were heard in France or in Canada in the 60's about the Portuguese, would you like it?"-- No, I would not, but if you related to me experiences you had in France or Canada with portuguese people in the 60's I would not see anything wrong with it. It really does not bother me if you considered my words racist for they were not written that way. I'm sorry you did though, for all I did was relate an experience from my life. :) And I did not consider Luis KW's words racist either for what he was describing to us was nothing new to me, except the drug part that happened after I left. Sometimes one just has to know the situation to fully understand the exchange of words. I understood Luis and he understood me, although we live in two different continents we share the same cultural experiences and his words made sense. You are right, we should have another list where we could trade thoughts and ideas about the culture, history, politics, food, etc of Portugal. I can get one going if no one else wants to. If anyone wants to then e-mail me privately so we do not repeat the request to rootsweb. Hope the weather warms up for you. Luis Beal PS- I do not control the list, I monitor it to make sure the language is clean and the content appropriate. Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:39:09 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo I am sorry but generalizations are never true. Some Roma are unwashed, but so are some Canadians, Americans, French and so on. Some got rich from drug trade, but so did some Portuguese, Italian, Algerian etc. What truth is there? That some individuals are bad, and do things that we don't like? If I repeated to you, as truth, comments that were heard in France or in Canada in the 60's about the Portuguese, would you like it? Well, I wouldn't. I would say exactly the same thing. Importantly, I refer you to my comments. I said, with due respect, that the impact of your comments were racist. You, I don't know. You can define yourself, but I will not. I agree that one could make any comments and relate them to Madeira. But I believe that we in the Diaspora would benefit more about dialogue and sharing about our history, our customs, and our struggles. But as you make it quite clear in a later posting, we know who controls this list, and I will follow the rules. Perhaps a reminder from time is always a good idea. Just a suggestion, because there are a lot of things affecting our people that I would like to talk about! Finally, language often transmits more than words. As of now whether I like it or not, Madeira is not part of Portugal. It is Portugal. The Madeiran President, Dr. Alberto Joao Jardim, has said that we are not an appendix of anything. We are what we decide to be and others will not decide that for us. After 550 years that may trouble some, but that's the truth or is it that in politics and war the truth is always the first victim? José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis Beal Sent: February 14, 2007 3:43 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo There is a difference between racism and the truth. I am not a racist and my comments, or Luis KW's, were not racist they were merely a description of how gypsies behave and their achievements over the last 30 years. It is a pity that anytime someone mentions something, whether good or bad, about another race or culture it is immediately viewed as racist. There are different obvious behaviors to each culture and race and stating their good and bad parts is NOT racism. Trashing them or putting them down IS racism. Stating facts IS NOT, it is the way life is, the way they want it to be. If you believe what we said speaks volumes about our country you are forgetting that the same situation exists in most of the southern European countries where gypsies have settled, and these countries will have similar stories to tell. We can end this discussion right here and go back to Madeira's genealogy topics (although there are probably gypsies in Madeira so it is not off topic) :) Just one more thing, you will eventually find out that since Madeira is part of Portugal talking about things that happened in the mainland (history) is not off topic. They share the same history and a lot of the same people :) Have a happy valentines day! Luis Beal Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 9:51:16 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Some of these comments and the ones leading to this posting are not appropriate. With due respect, I don't question intent at this moment, but the impact of all your comments are racist. The Roma people have suffered tremendously in Europe. They continued to be discriminated in all Europe, in some countries more than others. A half a million were slaughtered in the Holocaust. They deserve more than you unfortunate comments. Don't get me wrong, I believe that you are expressing what a sizeable number of Portuguese would say. It doesn't make it right, but it speaks volumes about your country. I too am critical about my country, Canada. Just to save you time. This topic has nothing to do with Madeira other than show you , as madeiran Diaspora, a glimpse of attitudes of the "motherland" then and even now. We have a snowstorm here and I am house-bound. I have refused to get into this debate but unfortunately and obviously I don't any better! Jose Fernandez ________________________________ From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: Wed 2/14/2007 8:52 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis B. I agree with you. Let me add something else. Don't get me wrong. I do not want you to think I'm some kind of racist or anything. My opinion is: those gypsy "traders" got rich because they never payed taxes at street markets. Most of them DO NOT WANT to own stores because, this way, it's not easy to check how much they own/sell/etc., and they keep away from taxes. They became rich, all right. And they love showing it. That's why they (men and women) wear all the gold they can. In the last 20 years, many gypsies went to prison for a much more profitable trade: they became DRUG dealers. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Gypsies is exactly what I thought of too when I read your description. You say they begged discreetly, how long ago was that? When I was a young girl in the 70's they were indeed poor, wearing black clothing, never bathing, and they were always in small groups, at least where I lived in the suburbs of Lisbon, but they soon became rich selling all kinds of junk at the street markets. When I left Portugal in the late 80's they owned clothing stores, beautiful houses and cars, but still wore black and did not bathe :( They sell everything and anything they think you'll pay money for. I bet if you go back now they will be very different. Luis Beal ------------- Dear Margaret, I am sorry (once again), but I got to tell you that your description of Barcelos is just like I wrote that I've only seen almost-naked red indians and some very fat black people in the US. :-) Anyway, I've been smiling with your description of Barcelos (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelos) for the last couple of minutes. People from Barcelos are descendants of the Moors? Probably from those who were butchered in the late 900's (over 1000 years ago)? LOL People from Minho (northern Portugal) is known for being the living proof of the visigoths (and other germanic peoples) domination in the 7th and 8th century, until de arrival of the moors. Many still have blond hair and blue eyes. My guess is that those dark skin people, begging and wearing black clothes were GYPSIES! (or Romanians) LOLLoLuis ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose: You will find Castelo de Vide north of Portoalegre and there is a major road that leads to it. It is close to the Spansh border and there is a Spa near by. It is great to go on a Portuguese tour for the guides know the history and the historical buildings and you really learn a lot more from them. They are fluent in several languages. We were with a group from Belgium and he communicated very well with them in French and also translated everything for us in English. There were only four Americans in the group. It is important to book the tour before you leave however we were fortunate to join the tour with the aid of the conserge at the hotel. Another area of great interest is Barcelos. The towns people are decendants of the moors and so was our tour guide. They were very poor and in their plaza sold pottery. They would beg however it was done very decreetly and you knew that they had great need. It was interesting to see that they still occupied the town, were of the darker skin, and wore black clothing . They sell many of those roosters of pottery that we all are familiar with. Their merchandize was all of pottery. Maragaret ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de EUR 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de EUR 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! 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Hi Luis.../ i researched thru your database the names that we have in common listed and i wrote thm in on my PAF files and their descendance :) by the way im going to Madeira in July...cant wait :) Leandro -----Original Message----- From: luisbeal@yahoo.com To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 4.50PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject - S. Vicente How did you do that? My info is not downloadable. Luis "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator ----- Original Message ---- From: "gregobhte1@aol.com" <gregobhte1@aol.com> To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 3:54:14 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject - S. Vicente Yes Pat...you got ir :) By the way, if you can send me some of yours i can try to find some kinship between us.....probably possible :) Take care Leandro -----Original Message----- From: papagaia2@sbcglobal.net To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 5.54PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject - S. Vicente Leandro, This may be a "dumb," question, but how did you establish "kinship," with Luis Beal... did you post all her information that's online to your PAF file and then use the relationship calculator? Pat Luis Beal <luisbeal@yahoo.com> wrote: Well that is very cool. I usually do not answer questions like the one you posted because I have so many people on my database it would take me years to type them but from S. Vicente I hardly have any. I do have an online database with my ancestry at http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=luisbeal&I11.x=51&I11.y=5 everyone is welcome to check it out. Have a great day. Luis Beal Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:44:03 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject - S. Vicente Hi Luis.....so we are not only related thru Pedro Bras Teixeira, but also thru Alvaro Gomes and Maria Dias. They are my 8th great-grandfather. Actually according to my PFA files, we are related many many times.... thru Inacio Caldeira and Maria Dias we are 5th cousins 3 times removed, , thru Goncalo Costa and Maria Ponte, we are 7th cousins 2 times removed, thru Jose Gomes Duarte and Isabel castro de Faria we are 7th cousins 2 times removed, thru Tome Goncalves and Joana Goncalves we are 8th cousins 4 times removed, thru pedro Bras Teixeira and Antonia Caldeira we are 8th cousins 4 times removed!!!!!! We definitely shall meet someday, because we are very much related thats for sure :) Take care for now dear cousin! Leandro -----Original Message----- From: luisbeal@yahoo.com To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 1:32 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject - S. Vicente I have an Alvaro Gomes who married Maria Dias back in 1694 in S. Antao. Both were born in Sao Vicente and so were their parents, Francisco de Gois and Maria Francisca (Alvaros' parents), and Domingos Gomes and Anto'nia Dias (Maria's parents). That seems to be it for me from Sao Vicente. Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:02:21 AM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject Hey folks...how about a change of subject?????? Anyone here that belongs from families that comes from Sao Vicente?? If so....which surnames??? Thank you Leandro ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! 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How did you do that? My info is not downloadable. Luis "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator ----- Original Message ---- From: "gregobhte1@aol.com" <gregobhte1@aol.com> To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 3:54:14 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject - S. Vicente Yes Pat...you got ir :) By the way, if you can send me some of yours i can try to find some kinship between us.....probably possible :) Take care Leandro -----Original Message----- From: papagaia2@sbcglobal.net To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 5.54PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject - S. Vicente Leandro, This may be a "dumb," question, but how did you establish "kinship," with Luis Beal... did you post all her information that's online to your PAF file and then use the relationship calculator? Pat Luis Beal <luisbeal@yahoo.com> wrote: Well that is very cool. I usually do not answer questions like the one you posted because I have so many people on my database it would take me years to type them but from S. Vicente I hardly have any. I do have an online database with my ancestry at http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=luisbeal&I11.x=51&I11.y=5 everyone is welcome to check it out. Have a great day. Luis Beal Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:44:03 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject - S. Vicente Hi Luis.....so we are not only related thru Pedro Bras Teixeira, but also thru Alvaro Gomes and Maria Dias. They are my 8th great-grandfather. Actually according to my PFA files, we are related many many times.... thru Inacio Caldeira and Maria Dias we are 5th cousins 3 times removed, , thru Goncalo Costa and Maria Ponte, we are 7th cousins 2 times removed, thru Jose Gomes Duarte and Isabel castro de Faria we are 7th cousins 2 times removed, thru Tome Goncalves and Joana Goncalves we are 8th cousins 4 times removed, thru pedro Bras Teixeira and Antonia Caldeira we are 8th cousins 4 times removed!!!!!! We definitely shall meet someday, because we are very much related thats for sure :) Take care for now dear cousin! Leandro -----Original Message----- From: luisbeal@yahoo.com To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 1:32 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject - S. Vicente I have an Alvaro Gomes who married Maria Dias back in 1694 in S. Antao. Both were born in Sao Vicente and so were their parents, Francisco de Gois and Maria Francisca (Alvaros' parents), and Domingos Gomes and Anto'nia Dias (Maria's parents). That seems to be it for me from Sao Vicente. Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:02:21 AM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject Hey folks...how about a change of subject?????? Anyone here that belongs from families that comes from Sao Vicente?? If so....which surnames??? Thank you Leandro ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! 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Yes Pat...you got ir :) By the way, if you can send me some of yours i can try to find some kinship between us.....probably possible :) Take care Leandro -----Original Message----- From: papagaia2@sbcglobal.net To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 5.54PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject - S. Vicente Leandro, This may be a "dumb," question, but how did you establish "kinship," with Luis Beal... did you post all her information that's online to your PAF file and then use the relationship calculator? Pat Luis Beal <luisbeal@yahoo.com> wrote: Well that is very cool. I usually do not answer questions like the one you posted because I have so many people on my database it would take me years to type them but from S. Vicente I hardly have any. I do have an online database with my ancestry at http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=luisbeal&I11.x=51&I11.y=5 everyone is welcome to check it out. Have a great day. Luis Beal Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:44:03 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject - S. Vicente Hi Luis.....so we are not only related thru Pedro Bras Teixeira, but also thru Alvaro Gomes and Maria Dias. They are my 8th great-grandfather. Actually according to my PFA files, we are related many many times.... thru Inacio Caldeira and Maria Dias we are 5th cousins 3 times removed, , thru Goncalo Costa and Maria Ponte, we are 7th cousins 2 times removed, thru Jose Gomes Duarte and Isabel castro de Faria we are 7th cousins 2 times removed, thru Tome Goncalves and Joana Goncalves we are 8th cousins 4 times removed, thru pedro Bras Teixeira and Antonia Caldeira we are 8th cousins 4 times removed!!!!!! We definitely shall meet someday, because we are very much related thats for sure :) Take care for now dear cousin! Leandro -----Original Message----- From: luisbeal@yahoo.com To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 1:32 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject - S. Vicente I have an Alvaro Gomes who married Maria Dias back in 1694 in S. Antao. Both were born in Sao Vicente and so were their parents, Francisco de Gois and Maria Francisca (Alvaros' parents), and Domingos Gomes and Anto'nia Dias (Maria's parents). That seems to be it for me from Sao Vicente. Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:02:21 AM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject Hey folks...how about a change of subject?????? Anyone here that belongs from families that comes from Sao Vicente?? If so....which surnames??? Thank you Leandro ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Pat.... My ancestors comes from all over :) but mainly Sao Vicente, Seixal, Some in Calheta, Ponta do Pargo, Ponta do Sol and Ribeira Brava Leandro -----Original Message----- From: papagaia2@sbcglobal.net To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 6.45PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject - S. Vicente Hi Leandro, The only individuals that I have from Sao Vicente are those that I previously posted. I have a correction/clarification to make as to the source that I quoted when making the following statement ..." More on Sebastiao and his family can be found on page 183 "Familias da Ilhas da Madeira e Porto Santo"Titulo: Liras." This source should have read: " Reference to Sebastiao Rodrigues de Lira can be found on Page 183 under the titulo Barretos, do Arco # 5 Pg 183 of "Famiias da Ilhas da Madeira e Porto Santo - Titulo: Liras." Is Sao Vicente the only location that your ancestors came from? Pat gregobhte1@aol.com wrote: Hi Pat...i have some Gomes-Garcez in my family...so mabe you can help me to expand my family tree :) 1) Amaro Gomes garces married in 1678 in S Vicente with Antonia Caldeira (antonia is related to me) 2) Domingos Gomes Garces - son of Manuel Pacheco and Ana Rodrigues. Domingos married in 22 jun 1653 with Antonia Dias. He is my 9th great-grandfather 3) Joao Gomes Garcez - married in (???) with Maria Costa. They are the parents of Maria Pestana (this maria Pestana had a son that married in 1715, so probably this Joao Garcez was married mid 1600's or so!) 4) Alferes Manuel Gomes Garcez - Married Constanca Viveiros. Thir daugther Antonia Viveiros Married in 1720 one of my relatives, Joao Teixeira Brasao. All these names comes from Sao Vicente Thank you Leandro -----Original Message----- From: papagaia2@sbcglobal.net To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 5:45 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject - S. Vicente I have an Alvaro Gomes who married Maria Goncalves both from Sao Vicente, this couple is my 9th Great Grandparents. Their daughter, Margarida Gomes Garcez(Garces) b. abt 1590 Sao Vicente, married Sebastiao Dias de Lira b. bef 1590, they married 08 Jun 1610 Book 578 Pg 33v, Sao Vicente, Madeira. Sebastiao was also known as Sebastiao Rodriguese de Lira. More on Sebastiao and his family can be found on page 183 "Familias da Ilhas da Madeira e Porto Santo" Titulo: Liras. Their son Capitao Bartolomeu Velosa de Lira married Agueda Cesar Abreu Andrade on 30 May 1662, in the Calheta. This is a double line for me... another son of Sebastiao Dias de Lira and Margarida Gomes Garcez(Garces), named Vicente de Lira Veloso b. abt 1610 Sao Vicente, married on 04 Feb 1652 in the Estreito da Calheta to Maria Ferreira she was born on 04 Oct 1626 Estreito da Calheta... Vicente is my paternal great grandfather and his brother Bartolomeu noted above is my maternal great grandfather. That's what I have for Sao Vicente... Pat Silva Corbera . Luis Beal wrote: I have an Alvaro Gomes who married Maria Dias back in 1694 in S. Antao. Both were born in Sao Vicente and so were their parents, Francisco de Gois and Maria Francisca (Alvaros' parents), and Domingos Gomes and Anto'nia Dias (Maria's parents). That seems to be it for me from Sao Vicente. Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:02:21 AM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject Hey folks...how about a change of subject?????? Anyone here that belongs from families that comes from Sao Vicente?? If so....which surnames??? Thank you Leandro ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Leandro, The only individuals that I have from Sao Vicente are those that I previously posted. I have a correction/clarification to make as to the source that I quoted when making the following statement ..." More on Sebastiao and his family can be found on page 183 "Familias da Ilhas da Madeira e Porto Santo"Titulo: Liras." This source should have read: " Reference to Sebastiao Rodrigues de Lira can be found on Page 183 under the titulo Barretos, do Arco # 5 Pg 183 of "Famiias da Ilhas da Madeira e Porto Santo - Titulo: Liras." Is Sao Vicente the only location that your ancestors came from? Pat gregobhte1@aol.com wrote: Hi Pat...i have some Gomes-Garcez in my family...so mabe you can help me to expand my family tree :) 1) Amaro Gomes garces married in 1678 in S Vicente with Antonia Caldeira (antonia is related to me) 2) Domingos Gomes Garces - son of Manuel Pacheco and Ana Rodrigues. Domingos married in 22 jun 1653 with Antonia Dias. He is my 9th great-grandfather 3) Joao Gomes Garcez - married in (???) with Maria Costa. They are the parents of Maria Pestana (this maria Pestana had a son that married in 1715, so probably this Joao Garcez was married mid 1600's or so!) 4) Alferes Manuel Gomes Garcez - Married Constanca Viveiros. Thir daugther Antonia Viveiros Married in 1720 one of my relatives, Joao Teixeira Brasao. All these names comes from Sao Vicente Thank you Leandro -----Original Message----- From: papagaia2@sbcglobal.net To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 5:45 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject - S. Vicente I have an Alvaro Gomes who married Maria Goncalves both from Sao Vicente, this couple is my 9th Great Grandparents. Their daughter, Margarida Gomes Garcez(Garces) b. abt 1590 Sao Vicente, married Sebastiao Dias de Lira b. bef 1590, they married 08 Jun 1610 Book 578 Pg 33v, Sao Vicente, Madeira. Sebastiao was also known as Sebastiao Rodriguese de Lira. More on Sebastiao and his family can be found on page 183 "Familias da Ilhas da Madeira e Porto Santo" Titulo: Liras. Their son Capitao Bartolomeu Velosa de Lira married Agueda Cesar Abreu Andrade on 30 May 1662, in the Calheta. This is a double line for me... another son of Sebastiao Dias de Lira and Margarida Gomes Garcez(Garces), named Vicente de Lira Veloso b. abt 1610 Sao Vicente, married on 04 Feb 1652 in the Estreito da Calheta to Maria Ferreira she was born on 04 Oct 1626 Estreito da Calheta... Vicente is my paternal great grandfather and his brother Bartolomeu noted above is my maternal great grandfather. That's what I have for Sao Vicente... Pat Silva Corbera . Luis Beal wrote: I have an Alvaro Gomes who married Maria Dias back in 1694 in S. Antao. Both were born in Sao Vicente and so were their parents, Francisco de Gois and Maria Francisca (Alvaros' parents), and Domingos Gomes and Anto'nia Dias (Maria's parents). That seems to be it for me from Sao Vicente. Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:02:21 AM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject Hey folks...how about a change of subject?????? Anyone here that belongs from families that comes from Sao Vicente?? If so....which surnames??? Thank you Leandro ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Leandro, This may be a "dumb," question, but how did you establish "kinship," with Luis Beal... did you post all her information that's online to your PAF file and then use the relationship calculator? Pat Luis Beal <luisbeal@yahoo.com> wrote: Well that is very cool. I usually do not answer questions like the one you posted because I have so many people on my database it would take me years to type them but from S. Vicente I hardly have any. I do have an online database with my ancestry at http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=luisbeal&I11.x=51&I11.y=5 everyone is welcome to check it out. Have a great day. Luis Beal Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:44:03 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject - S. Vicente Hi Luis.....so we are not only related thru Pedro Bras Teixeira, but also thru Alvaro Gomes and Maria Dias. They are my 8th great-grandfather. Actually according to my PFA files, we are related many many times.... thru Inacio Caldeira and Maria Dias we are 5th cousins 3 times removed, , thru Goncalo Costa and Maria Ponte, we are 7th cousins 2 times removed, thru Jose Gomes Duarte and Isabel castro de Faria we are 7th cousins 2 times removed, thru Tome Goncalves and Joana Goncalves we are 8th cousins 4 times removed, thru pedro Bras Teixeira and Antonia Caldeira we are 8th cousins 4 times removed!!!!!! We definitely shall meet someday, because we are very much related thats for sure :) Take care for now dear cousin! Leandro -----Original Message----- From: luisbeal@yahoo.com To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 1:32 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject - S. Vicente I have an Alvaro Gomes who married Maria Dias back in 1694 in S. Antao. Both were born in Sao Vicente and so were their parents, Francisco de Gois and Maria Francisca (Alvaros' parents), and Domingos Gomes and Anto'nia Dias (Maria's parents). That seems to be it for me from Sao Vicente. Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:02:21 AM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Change of subject Hey folks...how about a change of subject?????? Anyone here that belongs from families that comes from Sao Vicente?? If so....which surnames??? Thank you Leandro ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

José, Are you the same Jose A. Fernandes the administrator of the Madeira DNA Project located at this website address ~ http://www.ourfamilyorigins.com/madeira/dna.htm ? Pat Silva Corbera "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> wrote: Sorry, I did my bit. I didn't just ignore it. May be that will cleanse my soul! I really don't want another list, and definitely not one just about Portugal. My interest is Madeira. But I will make a commitment to post items about history and culture. Others can do other themes. We can all learn form each other. I recommend that we can also post about the experiences of Madeirans in the Diaspora. That too is our history. It won't warm up around here until July! Just kidding. José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis Beal Sent: February 15, 2007 6:53 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo I was speaking from experience not generalizing. I was born and raised in Portugal, I left when I was 21. In my hometown there were several bands of gypsies who lived in different parts of town. They all wore, looked, and yes, smelled, very much the same. They loved gathering around the fire on the streets. I remember them since the time I was 4 years old. When they became more prosperous and bought houses they still built fires in their front yards and gathered around them. Their smell came from the combination of fire and body odor, and it was still the same after living in houses with plumbing. I have traveled to different parts of Portugal and they looked no different than those from my hometown. I was there two years ago in the street market in Carcavelos and I could easily tell you which people were gypsies. I have never heard them being refered to as Roma though. --"If I repeated to you, as truth, comments that were heard in France or in Canada in the 60's about the Portuguese, would you like it?"-- No, I would not, but if you related to me experiences you had in France or Canada with portuguese people in the 60's I would not see anything wrong with it. It really does not bother me if you considered my words racist for they were not written that way. I'm sorry you did though, for all I did was relate an experience from my life. :) And I did not consider Luis KW's words racist either for what he was describing to us was nothing new to me, except the drug part that happened after I left. Sometimes one just has to know the situation to fully understand the exchange of words. I understood Luis and he understood me, although we live in two different continents we share the same cultural experiences and his words made sense. You are right, we should have another list where we could trade thoughts and ideas about the culture, history, politics, food, etc of Portugal. I can get one going if no one else wants to. If anyone wants to then e-mail me privately so we do not repeat the request to rootsweb. Hope the weather warms up for you. Luis Beal PS- I do not control the list, I monitor it to make sure the language is clean and the content appropriate. Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:39:09 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo I am sorry but generalizations are never true. Some Roma are unwashed, but so are some Canadians, Americans, French and so on. Some got rich from drug trade, but so did some Portuguese, Italian, Algerian etc. What truth is there? That some individuals are bad, and do things that we don't like? If I repeated to you, as truth, comments that were heard in France or in Canada in the 60's about the Portuguese, would you like it? Well, I wouldn't. I would say exactly the same thing. Importantly, I refer you to my comments. I said, with due respect, that the impact of your comments were racist. You, I don't know. You can define yourself, but I will not. I agree that one could make any comments and relate them to Madeira. But I believe that we in the Diaspora would benefit more about dialogue and sharing about our history, our customs, and our struggles. But as you make it quite clear in a later posting, we know who controls this list, and I will follow the rules. Perhaps a reminder from time is always a good idea. Just a suggestion, because there are a lot of things affecting our people that I would like to talk about! Finally, language often transmits more than words. As of now whether I like it or not, Madeira is not part of Portugal. It is Portugal. The Madeiran President, Dr. Alberto Joao Jardim, has said that we are not an appendix of anything. We are what we decide to be and others will not decide that for us. After 550 years that may trouble some, but that's the truth or is it that in politics and war the truth is always the first victim? José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis Beal Sent: February 14, 2007 3:43 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo There is a difference between racism and the truth. I am not a racist and my comments, or Luis KW's, were not racist they were merely a description of how gypsies behave and their achievements over the last 30 years. It is a pity that anytime someone mentions something, whether good or bad, about another race or culture it is immediately viewed as racist. There are different obvious behaviors to each culture and race and stating their good and bad parts is NOT racism. Trashing them or putting them down IS racism. Stating facts IS NOT, it is the way life is, the way they want it to be. If you believe what we said speaks volumes about our country you are forgetting that the same situation exists in most of the southern European countries where gypsies have settled, and these countries will have similar stories to tell. We can end this discussion right here and go back to Madeira's genealogy topics (although there are probably gypsies in Madeira so it is not off topic) :) Just one more thing, you will eventually find out that since Madeira is part of Portugal talking about things that happened in the mainland (history) is not off topic. They share the same history and a lot of the same people :) Have a happy valentines day! Luis Beal Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 9:51:16 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Some of these comments and the ones leading to this posting are not appropriate. With due respect, I don't question intent at this moment, but the impact of all your comments are racist. The Roma people have suffered tremendously in Europe. They continued to be discriminated in all Europe, in some countries more than others. A half a million were slaughtered in the Holocaust. They deserve more than you unfortunate comments. Don't get me wrong, I believe that you are expressing what a sizeable number of Portuguese would say. It doesn't make it right, but it speaks volumes about your country. I too am critical about my country, Canada. Just to save you time. This topic has nothing to do with Madeira other than show you , as madeiran Diaspora, a glimpse of attitudes of the "motherland" then and even now. We have a snowstorm here and I am house-bound. I have refused to get into this debate but unfortunately and obviously I don't any better! Jose Fernandez ________________________________ From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: Wed 2/14/2007 8:52 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis B. I agree with you. Let me add something else. Don't get me wrong. I do not want you to think I'm some kind of racist or anything. My opinion is: those gypsy "traders" got rich because they never payed taxes at street markets. Most of them DO NOT WANT to own stores because, this way, it's not easy to check how much they own/sell/etc., and they keep away from taxes. They became rich, all right. And they love showing it. That's why they (men and women) wear all the gold they can. In the last 20 years, many gypsies went to prison for a much more profitable trade: they became DRUG dealers. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Gypsies is exactly what I thought of too when I read your description. You say they begged discreetly, how long ago was that? When I was a young girl in the 70's they were indeed poor, wearing black clothing, never bathing, and they were always in small groups, at least where I lived in the suburbs of Lisbon, but they soon became rich selling all kinds of junk at the street markets. When I left Portugal in the late 80's they owned clothing stores, beautiful houses and cars, but still wore black and did not bathe :( They sell everything and anything they think you'll pay money for. I bet if you go back now they will be very different. Luis Beal ------------- Dear Margaret, I am sorry (once again), but I got to tell you that your description of Barcelos is just like I wrote that I've only seen almost-naked red indians and some very fat black people in the US. :-) Anyway, I've been smiling with your description of Barcelos (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelos) for the last couple of minutes. People from Barcelos are descendants of the Moors? Probably from those who were butchered in the late 900's (over 1000 years ago)? LOL People from Minho (northern Portugal) is known for being the living proof of the visigoths (and other germanic peoples) domination in the 7th and 8th century, until de arrival of the moors. Many still have blond hair and blue eyes. My guess is that those dark skin people, begging and wearing black clothes were GYPSIES! (or Romanians) LOLLoLuis ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose: You will find Castelo de Vide north of Portoalegre and there is a major road that leads to it. It is close to the Spansh border and there is a Spa near by. It is great to go on a Portuguese tour for the guides know the history and the historical buildings and you really learn a lot more from them. They are fluent in several languages. We were with a group from Belgium and he communicated very well with them in French and also translated everything for us in English. There were only four Americans in the group. It is important to book the tour before you leave however we were fortunate to join the tour with the aid of the conserge at the hotel. Another area of great interest is Barcelos. The towns people are decendants of the moors and so was our tour guide. They were very poor and in their plaza sold pottery. They would beg however it was done very decreetly and you knew that they had great need. It was interesting to see that they still occupied the town, were of the darker skin, and wore black clothing . They sell many of those roosters of pottery that we all are familiar with. Their merchandize was all of pottery. Maragaret ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de EUR 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de EUR 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Sorry, I did my bit. I didn't just ignore it. May be that will cleanse my soul! I really don't want another list, and definitely not one just about Portugal. My interest is Madeira. But I will make a commitment to post items about history and culture. Others can do other themes. We can all learn form each other. I recommend that we can also post about the experiences of Madeirans in the Diaspora. That too is our history. It won't warm up around here until July! Just kidding. José -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis Beal Sent: February 15, 2007 6:53 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo I was speaking from experience not generalizing. I was born and raised in Portugal, I left when I was 21. In my hometown there were several bands of gypsies who lived in different parts of town. They all wore, looked, and yes, smelled, very much the same. They loved gathering around the fire on the streets. I remember them since the time I was 4 years old. When they became more prosperous and bought houses they still built fires in their front yards and gathered around them. Their smell came from the combination of fire and body odor, and it was still the same after living in houses with plumbing. I have traveled to different parts of Portugal and they looked no different than those from my hometown. I was there two years ago in the street market in Carcavelos and I could easily tell you which people were gypsies. I have never heard them being refered to as Roma though. --"If I repeated to you, as truth, comments that were heard in France or in Canada in the 60's about the Portuguese, would you like it?"-- No, I would not, but if you related to me experiences you had in France or Canada with portuguese people in the 60's I would not see anything wrong with it. It really does not bother me if you considered my words racist for they were not written that way. I'm sorry you did though, for all I did was relate an experience from my life. :) And I did not consider Luis KW's words racist either for what he was describing to us was nothing new to me, except the drug part that happened after I left. Sometimes one just has to know the situation to fully understand the exchange of words. I understood Luis and he understood me, although we live in two different continents we share the same cultural experiences and his words made sense. You are right, we should have another list where we could trade thoughts and ideas about the culture, history, politics, food, etc of Portugal. I can get one going if no one else wants to. If anyone wants to then e-mail me privately so we do not repeat the request to rootsweb. Hope the weather warms up for you. Luis Beal PS- I do not control the list, I monitor it to make sure the language is clean and the content appropriate. Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:39:09 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo I am sorry but generalizations are never true. Some Roma are unwashed, but so are some Canadians, Americans, French and so on. Some got rich from drug trade, but so did some Portuguese, Italian, Algerian etc. What truth is there? That some individuals are bad, and do things that we don't like? If I repeated to you, as truth, comments that were heard in France or in Canada in the 60's about the Portuguese, would you like it? Well, I wouldn't. I would say exactly the same thing. Importantly, I refer you to my comments. I said, with due respect, that the impact of your comments were racist. You, I don't know. You can define yourself, but I will not. I agree that one could make any comments and relate them to Madeira. But I believe that we in the Diaspora would benefit more about dialogue and sharing about our history, our customs, and our struggles. But as you make it quite clear in a later posting, we know who controls this list, and I will follow the rules. Perhaps a reminder from time is always a good idea. Just a suggestion, because there are a lot of things affecting our people that I would like to talk about! Finally, language often transmits more than words. As of now whether I like it or not, Madeira is not part of Portugal. It is Portugal. The Madeiran President, Dr. Alberto Joao Jardim, has said that we are not an appendix of anything. We are what we decide to be and others will not decide that for us. After 550 years that may trouble some, but that's the truth or is it that in politics and war the truth is always the first victim? José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis Beal Sent: February 14, 2007 3:43 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo There is a difference between racism and the truth. I am not a racist and my comments, or Luis KW's, were not racist they were merely a description of how gypsies behave and their achievements over the last 30 years. It is a pity that anytime someone mentions something, whether good or bad, about another race or culture it is immediately viewed as racist. There are different obvious behaviors to each culture and race and stating their good and bad parts is NOT racism. Trashing them or putting them down IS racism. Stating facts IS NOT, it is the way life is, the way they want it to be. If you believe what we said speaks volumes about our country you are forgetting that the same situation exists in most of the southern European countries where gypsies have settled, and these countries will have similar stories to tell. We can end this discussion right here and go back to Madeira's genealogy topics (although there are probably gypsies in Madeira so it is not off topic) :) Just one more thing, you will eventually find out that since Madeira is part of Portugal talking about things that happened in the mainland (history) is not off topic. They share the same history and a lot of the same people :) Have a happy valentines day! Luis Beal Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 9:51:16 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Some of these comments and the ones leading to this posting are not appropriate. With due respect, I don't question intent at this moment, but the impact of all your comments are racist. The Roma people have suffered tremendously in Europe. They continued to be discriminated in all Europe, in some countries more than others. A half a million were slaughtered in the Holocaust. They deserve more than you unfortunate comments. Don't get me wrong, I believe that you are expressing what a sizeable number of Portuguese would say. It doesn't make it right, but it speaks volumes about your country. I too am critical about my country, Canada. Just to save you time. This topic has nothing to do with Madeira other than show you , as madeiran Diaspora, a glimpse of attitudes of the "motherland" then and even now. We have a snowstorm here and I am house-bound. I have refused to get into this debate but unfortunately and obviously I don't any better! Jose Fernandez ________________________________ From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: Wed 2/14/2007 8:52 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Porto Santo Dear Luis B. I agree with you. Let me add something else. Don't get me wrong. I do not want you to think I'm some kind of racist or anything. My opinion is: those gypsy "traders" got rich because they never payed taxes at street markets. Most of them DO NOT WANT to own stores because, this way, it's not easy to check how much they own/sell/etc., and they keep away from taxes. They became rich, all right. And they love showing it. That's why they (men and women) wear all the gold they can. In the last 20 years, many gypsies went to prison for a much more profitable trade: they became DRUG dealers. Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Gypsies is exactly what I thought of too when I read your description. You say they begged discreetly, how long ago was that? When I was a young girl in the 70's they were indeed poor, wearing black clothing, never bathing, and they were always in small groups, at least where I lived in the suburbs of Lisbon, but they soon became rich selling all kinds of junk at the street markets. When I left Portugal in the late 80's they owned clothing stores, beautiful houses and cars, but still wore black and did not bathe :( They sell everything and anything they think you'll pay money for. I bet if you go back now they will be very different. Luis Beal ------------- Dear Margaret, I am sorry (once again), but I got to tell you that your description of Barcelos is just like I wrote that I've only seen almost-naked red indians and some very fat black people in the US. :-) Anyway, I've been smiling with your description of Barcelos (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelos) for the last couple of minutes. People from Barcelos are descendants of the Moors? Probably from those who were butchered in the late 900's (over 1000 years ago)? LOL People from Minho (northern Portugal) is known for being the living proof of the visigoths (and other germanic peoples) domination in the 7th and 8th century, until de arrival of the moors. Many still have blond hair and blue eyes. My guess is that those dark skin people, begging and wearing black clothes were GYPSIES! (or Romanians) LOLLoLuis ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Jose: You will find Castelo de Vide north of Portoalegre and there is a major road that leads to it. It is close to the Spansh border and there is a Spa near by. It is great to go on a Portuguese tour for the guides know the history and the historical buildings and you really learn a lot more from them. They are fluent in several languages. We were with a group from Belgium and he communicated very well with them in French and also translated everything for us in English. There were only four Americans in the group. It is important to book the tour before you leave however we were fortunate to join the tour with the aid of the conserge at the hotel. Another area of great interest is Barcelos. The towns people are decendants of the moors and so was our tour guide. They were very poor and in their plaza sold pottery. They would beg however it was done very decreetly and you knew that they had great need. It was interesting to see that they still occupied the town, were of the darker skin, and wore black clothing . They sell many of those roosters of pottery that we all are familiar with. Their merchandize was all of pottery. Maragaret ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de EUR 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de EUR 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message