Hello Leandro - I have ancestors named de Pontes from São Vicente. However, I haven't researched that branch of the tree yet. Bob -------------- Original message -------------- From: Gregobhte1@aol.com > Hi everybody.... > > Im researching at the moment my family in Sao Vicente and Machico. Anyone of > you have ancestors coming from those places?? If so...whats the surnames? > > Thank you > > Leandro Augusto Teles > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Leandro: I have a large group of ancestors from the Machico area. The most recent names in my lineage are de Freitas and da Costa (1800s). I can trace some of my ancestors back to early 1600s with various names. Are you interested in any names in particular? Mary da Silva Frost -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Gregobhte1@aol.com Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 4:46 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Sao Vicente/Machico Hi everybody.... Im researching at the moment my family in Sao Vicente and Machico. Anyone of you have ancestors coming from those places?? If so...whats the surnames? Thank you Leandro Augusto Teles ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Leandro: I am researching Antonio Pereira (m) Maria Gomes family who eventully ended up in Antigua. Wish I KNEW where in Madeira they were from... Thanks for the offered hand of assistance anyway! Melanie Pereira -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Gregobhte1@aol.com Sent: March 9, 2007 1:46 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Sao Vicente/Machico Hi everybody.... Im researching at the moment my family in Sao Vicente and Machico. Anyone of you have ancestors coming from those places?? If so...whats the surnames? Thank you Leandro Augusto Teles ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi everybody.... Im researching at the moment my family in Sao Vicente and Machico. Anyone of you have ancestors coming from those places?? If so...whats the surnames? Thank you Leandro Augusto Teles

Maybe someone from the list has some knowledge of H. A. Nobrego. I am sure Lorraine McConaghy would appreciate hearing from you. In the letter that is being referred to, Henry Nobrego asks about news from Madeira. David DeGrella Tennessee USA l.mcconaghy@comcast.net> To: <david-nancy.degrella@juno.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 18:53:52 -0800 Subject: RE: Henry Nobrega Message-ID: <001b01c76063$ec45e1a0$6501a8c0@comp2> Thanks! I am very, very grateful. I found your post on Rootsweb, just doing google searches for �Nobrego� and �Nobrega.� It�s a fairly hopeless task to try to learn what became of the Decatur�s sailors after the ship was decommissioned � it�s easy to figure the officers out. So many enlisted men shipped with purser�s names � phony names to evade pursuit, like John Smith or William Brown � that a name like your ancestor�s is terrific. He is listed as �Henry A. Nobrega,� on the Decatur muster of June 1854, at Norfolk, Virginia, but not listed as a �boy� in that list. He was punished once during his time on board, according to the logbook, released from double irons off Seattle on November 5, 1855. As I mentioned, he never visited the surgeon. Then, he was mentioned in a Decatur muster list as H.A. Nobrego, dated March 10, 1857, and the way I read the difficult cursive handwriting, he was classified as a �boy,� which seems hard to believe if he�d shipped by June 1854. In any case, he had an amazing experience on board this ship, a three-masted, 16 carronade sloop of war that passed east-to-west to the Strait of Magellan, fought in an Indian War off Seattle, to fight the Vigilance Committee in San Francisco, and then to Panama. It appears that he left the ship at Panama to head east across the Isthmus, but I am not sure�. Again, my thanks, Lorraine McConaghy PS I hope the book will be published in about a year: _Warship Under Sail: US Sloop-of-War Decatur in the Pacific Squadron, 1854-1859. -----Original Message----- From: david-nancy.degrella@juno.com [mailto:david-nancy.degrella@juno.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 6:37 PM To: l.mcconaghy@comcast.net Subject: Re: Henry Nobrega The name I have for the ancestor is Henry S. D, Nobrega. The only information I have on him is contained in the letter that was sent to my great-grandmother. I have never been able to learn anything about him. The translation of the letter is attached. We also have the envelop the letter was mailed in. That is how we know the letter was to my great-grandmother. The account of the battle of New Orleans and the planned sailing to Boston does match the history that the Navy has on the Niagara. By the way what old posting of mine did you find on the Internet? Good luck on your research. David On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 17:56:27 -0800 "Lorraine McConaghy" <l.mcconaghy@comcast.net> writes: Sorry, I sent that too quickly � my name is Lorraine McConaghy -----Original Message----- From: Lorraine McConaghy [mailto:l.mcconaghy@comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 5:55 PM To: 'david-nancy.degrella@juno.com' Subject: Henry Nobrega I�m a historian, working on a narrative history of the sloop-of-war DECATUR in the Pacific Squadron, 1854-1859, and there was an H.A. Nobrego� on board, listed in the muster March 10, 1857, as a �boy.� He never visited the surgeon, so I don�t know his age or his stated place of birth. I wonder whether this might be the ancestor whose letter you have, in Portuguese.

Ronnie There is never a dumb question. The Basque are not close to Portugal. They are in the North of Spain but closer to the French border. The Basque language is not at all like the Portuguese, Spanish or any other modern Iberian language. There is a debate going on about the language. Is it one of the ancient "celtiberian" languages? before the Romans arrived? Possibly. Are they a different people? Possibly. At the conference, they barely touched on this. Jose ________________________________ From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of Ronnie French Sent: Wed 3/7/2007 5:07 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com; grandcross; Katherine Hope Borges; cherimello@gmail.com; kriolu@hotmail.com Cc: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Madeira and Galicia I hope this is not too dumb a question. How do the Basque's fit in. Aren't they close by or partly in the Northern Portuguese area? Or do they fit in at all? Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> To: "grandcross" <grandcross@swbell.net>; "Katherine Hope Borges" <kvjjmmborges@msn.com>; <cherimello@gmail.com>; <kriolu@hotmail.com> Cc: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 6:33 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Madeira and Galicia I hope you don't mind that I am including the list in my e-mail. Thanks for your comments. Let's keep this Minho versus Algarve discussion going. I am not sure there is evidence either way. May be others can jump in. I have seen evidence of merchants from Algarve in Funchal. Joao de Tavira was one of them. Funchal has a street named after him. Henry the navigator lived there for his last 40 years. So it would make sense that the ships came from there. Initially! But what about the colonization? Algarve was Christian for about 100 and some odd years. The ruling classes were northern. The people were in transition. The upper classes of the Moorish kingdoms had left. Silves, one their capitals and seaport, was about to be landlocked. Who were Henry's friends? Who did he trust? We know that he was the head of the Order of Christ and the owner of Madeira. I am thinking Zarco and Tristao Vaz Teixeira brought along their friends. Now Madeira needs people to work the land. Would they be from Algarve? I don't know. The land is soon given to sugar plantation. That was foreign to the north, yet agriculture was the central occupation of the north. They knew how to work the land. The sugar trade to Europe was mostly trough Viana do Castelo. This was to avoid the Mediterranean controlled partially by Muslims. Ceuta was sometimes Christian, but very hard to hold. Tangiers the same and the same for the whole Moroccan coast. Algarve was often attacked by Moorish pirates. So safe trade to France and the Low countries was through the northern part and around Galicia. If this is true, then Madeira's trade link to Portugal is by way of the north. Also, Madeira looks pretty much like Minho, specially the north part of the island. Our musical traditions, I am told, have to do with Minho. Our traditional dresses have to do with Minho. There is so much culturally linked to the north. So, if not initially, then when we need people to work the land, I suggest we went north. Anyway, in my limited research, the 16th century Caniço is drawing males from the north. I totally agree with your conclusion that in the end that at least the ruling families in the south were from the north. Does any of this make sense? José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: grandcross [mailto:grandcross@swbell.net] Sent: March 5, 2007 4:12 PM To: Katherine Hope Borges; cherimello@gmail.com; kriolu@hotmail.com; Fernandes, Jose Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Madeira and Galicia My thanks to Jose for sending along this partial translation. Here are two quick observations: I walked 217 miles along the road to Santiago in 2000 and have driven along that route a number of times. The people I met in Galicia were indistinguishable from Portuguese who live within the upper half of present day Portugal. In other words, the present inhabitants of northwestern Iberia from central Portugal in the south to all of Galicia in the north appear to be culturally pretty much the same. That is not the case moving east from the Spanish - Portuguese border even if you cross it as far north as the region of Guarda and Viseu. My strong suspicion, in the absence of greater direct evidence, is that the Galicians and northern Portuguese are much the same genetically as well. What limited testing that has occurred seems to support that supposition, although the so-called "Moorish" influence is slightly greater in Galicia. I'm not so sure most of the original inhabitants of Madeira came from the north. It's possible but C.R. Boxer, for one, says "The earliest settlers were probably drawn mainly from the Algarve, as Prince Henry's caravels sailed chiefly from the ports of that province, but they were soon reinforced by emigrants from elsewhere in Portugal <specific location unstated> and from as far afield as Flanders...." (Boxer, The Portuguese Seabourne Empire 1415-1825, p.27). Of course, there was a general flow of humanity from north to south in the country from the thirteenth century forward so many in the south were the descendants of northern families. Thanks again, Jose. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Katherine Hope Borges" <kvjjmmborges@msn.com> To: <cherimello@gmail.com>; <grandcross@swbell.net>; <kriolu@hotmail.com> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 10:44 AM Subject: FW: [PT-MADEIRA] Madeira and Galicia >I recently had the pleasure to start reading a document containing papers >which > were presented at a conference which took place in Santiago de Compostela > in > 2002. The conference entitled "Xornadas xenética e historia no Noroeste > Peninsular" was dedicated to Genetics and History in the north part of the > Iberian Peninsula. > > > > The papers are written in Galician, Castilian and Portuguese. The whole > document > was kindly sent to me by Ricardo Costa de Oliveira. > > > > For those who are interested in the subject I am enclosing a summary of > comments > that caught my attention. It is purely a subjective selection. This part > only > includes half of the document. I will share with you the other part later. > > > > I welcome any comments. Please note that these are also my translations. > > > > Madeira and Galicia: a background > > > > Obviously you want to know what this conference has to do with Madeira. > Glad you > asked. > > > > We can use the term Galicia with its capital in Braga to identify most > territories north of the Mondego River and in the west and northern part > of > Iberia. That is until the reorganization of the Roman provinces in Iberia. > > > > However, it is to the north of the Douro River that the region reaches > into the > 12th and 13th centuries. This is the beginning of Portugal. The old > province of > Minho is part of this territory. > > > > Madeira is colonized in and around 1430's, barely 2 and a half centuries > hence. > If we accept that many of the colonists came from the Northern part of > Portugal, > then Madeira Is inevitably intertwined with Galicia. This means that in my > opinion, that many of the genetic, linguistic and historical inevitably, > directly or indirectly link to Madeira. > > > > In my limited research of parish records, I have found evidence that while > in > Funchal with its large mercantile population arrivals came from all over; > many > arrivals in the 15th or 16th centuries were from the north part. In > Caniço, > Santa Cruz specifically we see young men arriving from the present day > districts > of Viana, Braga and Viseu. Viseu today is not considered north, but it was > part > of pre-Portugal Galicia. > > > > So, for those of you, who are thinking beyond Madeira for your ancestral > lineages and genetic testing, Galicia and present day Minho may be your > destination. Please comment on this. > > > > The papers: > > > >>From the preface by Gerado Pereira,Anxo Carracedo > > > > "Geneticists don't study genetics phenomena of a people that was, but of a > people that is" > > > > "They don't study how genetically the Galician or Portuguese people are > (what > hypothetically they were) but what they became" > > > > "Is a people a starting or an arrival point?" > > > >>From Antonio Amorim > > > > "at the beginning of then 19th century there were more than 80,000 Galegos > in > Portugal" > > > > "there are no significant differences in mtDNa between Galicia and > northern > Portugal"p.22 > > > > mtDna paradox-those of North African lineage are more commonly found in > Galicia > and Northern Portugal p.24 > > > > male lines (Y) is the opposite- more in the south and less in Galicia- > p.27 > > > > from Sandra Beleza > > "from time immemorial there was always a clear division between cultures > that > existed in the North and those that established south of Rio Douro > (Ribeiro, > 1966) p.32 > > > > -modern thinking indicates that the Moorish invasion did not displace many > of > the people in the northern part (Pallares,2003) p.32 > > > > 0.26% variance between northern Portugal and Galicia- indicates a common > origin > > > > Note that when referring to the North there is a need to differentiate the > interior districts of Vila Real and Bragança from Braga and Viana do > Castelo- > the differences between these districts are significant- p36-37 > > > > The great conclusion of the study is that in Northwest the geographic > barriers > are more important that political lines in the y Chromosome data. > > > > Maria Brión and Paula Sanchez-Diz note that Galician males moved a lot. It > seems > that according to rural, legal and cultural tradition in Galicia, the > older > daughter inherited the family house and lands- p. 50 (I am wondering if > that is > the case in Minho?) > > > > > > > > > > > > José Fernandes > > Administrator > > Race Relations/Community and Cultural Services > > York Region District School Board > > Phone: 905 737 4353, Ext. 107 > > Phone: 416 969 7170, Ext 2409/107 > > jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/711 - Release Date: 3/5/2007 > 9:41 AM > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you. A hundred or more years ago, several hundred miles was a very long way from Northern Portugal. I was just curious. Thanks Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "grandcross" <grandcross@swbell.net> To: "Ronnie French" <rmfrench@charter.net>; <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com>; "Katherine Hope Borges" <kvjjmmborges@msn.com>; <cherimello@gmail.com>; <kriolu@hotmail.com> Cc: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 2:44 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Madeira and Galicia > > > >>I hope this is not too dumb a question. How do the Basque's fit in. >>Aren't they close by or partly in the Northern Portuguese area? Or do >>they fit in at all? >> >> Ronnie > > > There are no such things as dumb questions on this list. > > The Basques are genetically controversial. What I mean by that is some > people believe they have been in Europe the longest of any identifiable > group, and there is reason for so concluding on the basis of their unique > language alone. Others find fault in that thinking. Genetically, they > follow west European normal patterns for the most part, not much different > from their neighbors. One distinction that comes immediately to mind is > that Basqueland is a hot spot for mito V. Otherwise, all other haplogroups > are represented with perhaps slightly fewer so-called Neolithic types. > > They are situated several hundred miles from Portugal and, culturally, > extend from north central-eastern Spain into southwestern France. >

>I hope this is not too dumb a question. How do the Basque's fit in. >Aren't they close by or partly in the Northern Portuguese area? Or do they >fit in at all? > > Ronnie There are no such things as dumb questions on this list. The Basques are genetically controversial. What I mean by that is some people believe they have been in Europe the longest of any identifiable group, and there is reason for so concluding on the basis of their unique language alone. Others find fault in that thinking. Genetically, they follow west European normal patterns for the most part, not much different from their neighbors. One distinction that comes immediately to mind is that Basqueland is a hot spot for mito V. Otherwise, all other haplogroups are represented with perhaps slightly fewer so-called Neolithic types. They are situated several hundred miles from Portugal and, culturally, extend from north central-eastern Spain into southwestern France.

I hope this is not too dumb a question. How do the Basque's fit in. Aren't they close by or partly in the Northern Portuguese area? Or do they fit in at all? Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> To: "grandcross" <grandcross@swbell.net>; "Katherine Hope Borges" <kvjjmmborges@msn.com>; <cherimello@gmail.com>; <kriolu@hotmail.com> Cc: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 6:33 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Madeira and Galicia I hope you don't mind that I am including the list in my e-mail. Thanks for your comments. Let's keep this Minho versus Algarve discussion going. I am not sure there is evidence either way. May be others can jump in. I have seen evidence of merchants from Algarve in Funchal. Joao de Tavira was one of them. Funchal has a street named after him. Henry the navigator lived there for his last 40 years. So it would make sense that the ships came from there. Initially! But what about the colonization? Algarve was Christian for about 100 and some odd years. The ruling classes were northern. The people were in transition. The upper classes of the Moorish kingdoms had left. Silves, one their capitals and seaport, was about to be landlocked. Who were Henry's friends? Who did he trust? We know that he was the head of the Order of Christ and the owner of Madeira. I am thinking Zarco and Tristao Vaz Teixeira brought along their friends. Now Madeira needs people to work the land. Would they be from Algarve? I don't know. The land is soon given to sugar plantation. That was foreign to the north, yet agriculture was the central occupation of the north. They knew how to work the land. The sugar trade to Europe was mostly trough Viana do Castelo. This was to avoid the Mediterranean controlled partially by Muslims. Ceuta was sometimes Christian, but very hard to hold. Tangiers the same and the same for the whole Moroccan coast. Algarve was often attacked by Moorish pirates. So safe trade to France and the Low countries was through the northern part and around Galicia. If this is true, then Madeira's trade link to Portugal is by way of the north. Also, Madeira looks pretty much like Minho, specially the north part of the island. Our musical traditions, I am told, have to do with Minho. Our traditional dresses have to do with Minho. There is so much culturally linked to the north. So, if not initially, then when we need people to work the land, I suggest we went north. Anyway, in my limited research, the 16th century Caniço is drawing males from the north. I totally agree with your conclusion that in the end that at least the ruling families in the south were from the north. Does any of this make sense? José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: grandcross [mailto:grandcross@swbell.net] Sent: March 5, 2007 4:12 PM To: Katherine Hope Borges; cherimello@gmail.com; kriolu@hotmail.com; Fernandes, Jose Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Madeira and Galicia My thanks to Jose for sending along this partial translation. Here are two quick observations: I walked 217 miles along the road to Santiago in 2000 and have driven along that route a number of times. The people I met in Galicia were indistinguishable from Portuguese who live within the upper half of present day Portugal. In other words, the present inhabitants of northwestern Iberia from central Portugal in the south to all of Galicia in the north appear to be culturally pretty much the same. That is not the case moving east from the Spanish - Portuguese border even if you cross it as far north as the region of Guarda and Viseu. My strong suspicion, in the absence of greater direct evidence, is that the Galicians and northern Portuguese are much the same genetically as well. What limited testing that has occurred seems to support that supposition, although the so-called "Moorish" influence is slightly greater in Galicia. I'm not so sure most of the original inhabitants of Madeira came from the north. It's possible but C.R. Boxer, for one, says "The earliest settlers were probably drawn mainly from the Algarve, as Prince Henry's caravels sailed chiefly from the ports of that province, but they were soon reinforced by emigrants from elsewhere in Portugal <specific location unstated> and from as far afield as Flanders...." (Boxer, The Portuguese Seabourne Empire 1415-1825, p.27). Of course, there was a general flow of humanity from north to south in the country from the thirteenth century forward so many in the south were the descendants of northern families. Thanks again, Jose. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Katherine Hope Borges" <kvjjmmborges@msn.com> To: <cherimello@gmail.com>; <grandcross@swbell.net>; <kriolu@hotmail.com> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 10:44 AM Subject: FW: [PT-MADEIRA] Madeira and Galicia >I recently had the pleasure to start reading a document containing papers >which > were presented at a conference which took place in Santiago de Compostela > in > 2002. The conference entitled "Xornadas xenética e historia no Noroeste > Peninsular" was dedicated to Genetics and History in the north part of the > Iberian Peninsula. > > > > The papers are written in Galician, Castilian and Portuguese. The whole > document > was kindly sent to me by Ricardo Costa de Oliveira. > > > > For those who are interested in the subject I am enclosing a summary of > comments > that caught my attention. It is purely a subjective selection. This part > only > includes half of the document. I will share with you the other part later. > > > > I welcome any comments. Please note that these are also my translations. > > > > Madeira and Galicia: a background > > > > Obviously you want to know what this conference has to do with Madeira. > Glad you > asked. > > > > We can use the term Galicia with its capital in Braga to identify most > territories north of the Mondego River and in the west and northern part > of > Iberia. That is until the reorganization of the Roman provinces in Iberia. > > > > However, it is to the north of the Douro River that the region reaches > into the > 12th and 13th centuries. This is the beginning of Portugal. The old > province of > Minho is part of this territory. > > > > Madeira is colonized in and around 1430's, barely 2 and a half centuries > hence. > If we accept that many of the colonists came from the Northern part of > Portugal, > then Madeira Is inevitably intertwined with Galicia. This means that in my > opinion, that many of the genetic, linguistic and historical inevitably, > directly or indirectly link to Madeira. > > > > In my limited research of parish records, I have found evidence that while > in > Funchal with its large mercantile population arrivals came from all over; > many > arrivals in the 15th or 16th centuries were from the north part. In > Caniço, > Santa Cruz specifically we see young men arriving from the present day > districts > of Viana, Braga and Viseu. Viseu today is not considered north, but it was > part > of pre-Portugal Galicia. > > > > So, for those of you, who are thinking beyond Madeira for your ancestral > lineages and genetic testing, Galicia and present day Minho may be your > destination. Please comment on this. > > > > The papers: > > > >>From the preface by Gerado Pereira,Anxo Carracedo > > > > "Geneticists don't study genetics phenomena of a people that was, but of a > people that is" > > > > "They don't study how genetically the Galician or Portuguese people are > (what > hypothetically they were) but what they became" > > > > "Is a people a starting or an arrival point?" > > > >>From Antonio Amorim > > > > "at the beginning of then 19th century there were more than 80,000 Galegos > in > Portugal" > > > > "there are no significant differences in mtDNa between Galicia and > northern > Portugal"p.22 > > > > mtDna paradox-those of North African lineage are more commonly found in > Galicia > and Northern Portugal p.24 > > > > male lines (Y) is the opposite- more in the south and less in Galicia- > p.27 > > > > from Sandra Beleza > > "from time immemorial there was always a clear division between cultures > that > existed in the North and those that established south of Rio Douro > (Ribeiro, > 1966) p.32 > > > > -modern thinking indicates that the Moorish invasion did not displace many > of > the people in the northern part (Pallares,2003) p.32 > > > > 0.26% variance between northern Portugal and Galicia- indicates a common > origin > > > > Note that when referring to the North there is a need to differentiate the > interior districts of Vila Real and Bragança from Braga and Viana do > Castelo- > the differences between these districts are significant- p36-37 > > > > The great conclusion of the study is that in Northwest the geographic > barriers > are more important that political lines in the y Chromosome data. > > > > Maria Brión and Paula Sanchez-Diz note that Galician males moved a lot. It > seems > that according to rural, legal and cultural tradition in Galicia, the > older > daughter inherited the family house and lands- p. 50 (I am wondering if > that is > the case in Minho?) > > > > > > > > > > > > José Fernandes > > Administrator > > Race Relations/Community and Cultural Services > > York Region District School Board > > Phone: 905 737 4353, Ext. 107 > > Phone: 416 969 7170, Ext 2409/107 > > jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/711 - Release Date: 3/5/2007 > 9:41 AM > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I hope you don't mind that I am including the list in my e-mail. Thanks for your comments. Let's keep this Minho versus Algarve discussion going. I am not sure there is evidence either way. May be others can jump in. I have seen evidence of merchants from Algarve in Funchal. Joao de Tavira was one of them. Funchal has a street named after him. Henry the navigator lived there for his last 40 years. So it would make sense that the ships came from there. Initially! But what about the colonization? Algarve was Christian for about 100 and some odd years. The ruling classes were northern. The people were in transition. The upper classes of the Moorish kingdoms had left. Silves, one their capitals and seaport, was about to be landlocked. Who were Henry's friends? Who did he trust? We know that he was the head of the Order of Christ and the owner of Madeira. I am thinking Zarco and Tristao Vaz Teixeira brought along their friends. Now Madeira needs people to work the land. Would they be from Algarve? I don't know. The land is soon given to sugar plantation. That was foreign to the north, yet agriculture was the central occupation of the north. They knew how to work the land. The sugar trade to Europe was mostly trough Viana do Castelo. This was to avoid the Mediterranean controlled partially by Muslims. Ceuta was sometimes Christian, but very hard to hold. Tangiers the same and the same for the whole Moroccan coast. Algarve was often attacked by Moorish pirates. So safe trade to France and the Low countries was through the northern part and around Galicia. If this is true, then Madeira's trade link to Portugal is by way of the north. Also, Madeira looks pretty much like Minho, specially the north part of the island. Our musical traditions, I am told, have to do with Minho. Our traditional dresses have to do with Minho. There is so much culturally linked to the north. So, if not initially, then when we need people to work the land, I suggest we went north. Anyway, in my limited research, the 16th century Caniço is drawing males from the north. I totally agree with your conclusion that in the end that at least the ruling families in the south were from the north. Does any of this make sense? José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: grandcross [mailto:grandcross@swbell.net] Sent: March 5, 2007 4:12 PM To: Katherine Hope Borges; cherimello@gmail.com; kriolu@hotmail.com; Fernandes, Jose Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Madeira and Galicia My thanks to Jose for sending along this partial translation. Here are two quick observations: I walked 217 miles along the road to Santiago in 2000 and have driven along that route a number of times. The people I met in Galicia were indistinguishable from Portuguese who live within the upper half of present day Portugal. In other words, the present inhabitants of northwestern Iberia from central Portugal in the south to all of Galicia in the north appear to be culturally pretty much the same. That is not the case moving east from the Spanish - Portuguese border even if you cross it as far north as the region of Guarda and Viseu. My strong suspicion, in the absence of greater direct evidence, is that the Galicians and northern Portuguese are much the same genetically as well. What limited testing that has occurred seems to support that supposition, although the so-called "Moorish" influence is slightly greater in Galicia. I'm not so sure most of the original inhabitants of Madeira came from the north. It's possible but C.R. Boxer, for one, says "The earliest settlers were probably drawn mainly from the Algarve, as Prince Henry's caravels sailed chiefly from the ports of that province, but they were soon reinforced by emigrants from elsewhere in Portugal <specific location unstated> and from as far afield as Flanders...." (Boxer, The Portuguese Seabourne Empire 1415-1825, p.27). Of course, there was a general flow of humanity from north to south in the country from the thirteenth century forward so many in the south were the descendants of northern families. Thanks again, Jose. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Katherine Hope Borges" <kvjjmmborges@msn.com> To: <cherimello@gmail.com>; <grandcross@swbell.net>; <kriolu@hotmail.com> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 10:44 AM Subject: FW: [PT-MADEIRA] Madeira and Galicia >I recently had the pleasure to start reading a document containing papers >which > were presented at a conference which took place in Santiago de Compostela > in > 2002. The conference entitled "Xornadas xenética e historia no Noroeste > Peninsular" was dedicated to Genetics and History in the north part of the > Iberian Peninsula. > > > > The papers are written in Galician, Castilian and Portuguese. The whole > document > was kindly sent to me by Ricardo Costa de Oliveira. > > > > For those who are interested in the subject I am enclosing a summary of > comments > that caught my attention. It is purely a subjective selection. This part > only > includes half of the document. I will share with you the other part later. > > > > I welcome any comments. Please note that these are also my translations. > > > > Madeira and Galicia: a background > > > > Obviously you want to know what this conference has to do with Madeira. > Glad you > asked. > > > > We can use the term Galicia with its capital in Braga to identify most > territories north of the Mondego River and in the west and northern part > of > Iberia. That is until the reorganization of the Roman provinces in Iberia. > > > > However, it is to the north of the Douro River that the region reaches > into the > 12th and 13th centuries. This is the beginning of Portugal. The old > province of > Minho is part of this territory. > > > > Madeira is colonized in and around 1430's, barely 2 and a half centuries > hence. > If we accept that many of the colonists came from the Northern part of > Portugal, > then Madeira Is inevitably intertwined with Galicia. This means that in my > opinion, that many of the genetic, linguistic and historical inevitably, > directly or indirectly link to Madeira. > > > > In my limited research of parish records, I have found evidence that while > in > Funchal with its large mercantile population arrivals came from all over; > many > arrivals in the 15th or 16th centuries were from the north part. In > Caniço, > Santa Cruz specifically we see young men arriving from the present day > districts > of Viana, Braga and Viseu. Viseu today is not considered north, but it was > part > of pre-Portugal Galicia. > > > > So, for those of you, who are thinking beyond Madeira for your ancestral > lineages and genetic testing, Galicia and present day Minho may be your > destination. Please comment on this. > > > > The papers: > > > >>From the preface by Gerado Pereira,Anxo Carracedo > > > > "Geneticists don't study genetics phenomena of a people that was, but of a > people that is" > > > > "They don't study how genetically the Galician or Portuguese people are > (what > hypothetically they were) but what they became" > > > > "Is a people a starting or an arrival point?" > > > >>From Antonio Amorim > > > > "at the beginning of then 19th century there were more than 80,000 Galegos > in > Portugal" > > > > "there are no significant differences in mtDNa between Galicia and > northern > Portugal"p.22 > > > > mtDna paradox-those of North African lineage are more commonly found in > Galicia > and Northern Portugal p.24 > > > > male lines (Y) is the opposite- more in the south and less in Galicia- > p.27 > > > > from Sandra Beleza > > "from time immemorial there was always a clear division between cultures > that > existed in the North and those that established south of Rio Douro > (Ribeiro, > 1966) p.32 > > > > -modern thinking indicates that the Moorish invasion did not displace many > of > the people in the northern part (Pallares,2003) p.32 > > > > 0.26% variance between northern Portugal and Galicia- indicates a common > origin > > > > Note that when referring to the North there is a need to differentiate the > interior districts of Vila Real and Bragança from Braga and Viana do > Castelo- > the differences between these districts are significant- p36-37 > > > > The great conclusion of the study is that in Northwest the geographic > barriers > are more important that political lines in the y Chromosome data. > > > > Maria Brión and Paula Sanchez-Diz note that Galician males moved a lot. It > seems > that according to rural, legal and cultural tradition in Galicia, the > older > daughter inherited the family house and lands- p. 50 (I am wondering if > that is > the case in Minho?) > > > > > > > > > > > > José Fernandes > > Administrator > > Race Relations/Community and Cultural Services > > York Region District School Board > > Phone: 905 737 4353, Ext. 107 > > Phone: 416 969 7170, Ext 2409/107 > > jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.7/711 - Release Date: 3/5/2007 > 9:41 AM > >

Hey folks.... Anyone here has roots in Seixal??? If yes, whats your family names?? Thank you Leandro

Hey folks.... Anyone here has roots in Seixal??? If yes, whats your family names?? Thank you Leandro

I recently had the pleasure to start reading a document containing papers which were presented at a conference which took place in Santiago de Compostela in 2002. The conference entitled "Xornadas xenética e historia no Noroeste Peninsular" was dedicated to Genetics and History in the north part of the Iberian Peninsula. The papers are written in Galician, Castilian and Portuguese. The whole document was kindly sent to me by Ricardo Costa de Oliveira. For those who are interested in the subject I am enclosing a summary of comments that caught my attention. It is purely a subjective selection. This part only includes half of the document. I will share with you the other part later. I welcome any comments. Please note that these are also my translations. Madeira and Galicia: a background Obviously you want to know what this conference has to do with Madeira. Glad you asked. We can use the term Galicia with its capital in Braga to identify most territories north of the Mondego River and in the west and northern part of Iberia. That is until the reorganization of the Roman provinces in Iberia. However, it is to the north of the Douro River that the region reaches into the 12th and 13th centuries. This is the beginning of Portugal. The old province of Minho is part of this territory. Madeira is colonized in and around 1430's, barely 2 and a half centuries hence. If we accept that many of the colonists came from the Northern part of Portugal, then Madeira Is inevitably intertwined with Galicia. This means that in my opinion, that many of the genetic, linguistic and historical inevitably, directly or indirectly link to Madeira. In my limited research of parish records, I have found evidence that while in Funchal with its large mercantile population arrivals came from all over; many arrivals in the 15th or 16th centuries were from the north part. In Caniço, Santa Cruz specifically we see young men arriving from the present day districts of Viana, Braga and Viseu. Viseu today is not considered north, but it was part of pre-Portugal Galicia. So, for those of you, who are thinking beyond Madeira for your ancestral lineages and genetic testing, Galicia and present day Minho may be your destination. Please comment on this. The papers: >From the preface by Gerado Pereira,Anxo Carracedo "Geneticists don't study genetics phenomena of a people that was, but of a people that is" "They don't study how genetically the Galician or Portuguese people are (what hypothetically they were) but what they became" "Is a people a starting or an arrival point?" >From Antonio Amorim "at the beginning of then 19th century there were more than 80,000 Galegos in Portugal" "there are no significant differences in mtDNa between Galicia and northern Portugal"p.22 mtDna paradox-those of North African lineage are more commonly found in Galicia and Northern Portugal p.24 male lines (Y) is the opposite- more in the south and less in Galicia- p.27 from Sandra Beleza "from time immemorial there was always a clear division between cultures that existed in the North and those that established south of Rio Douro (Ribeiro, 1966) p.32 -modern thinking indicates that the Moorish invasion did not displace many of the people in the northern part (Pallares,2003) p.32 0.26% variance between northern Portugal and Galicia- indicates a common origin Note that when referring to the North there is a need to differentiate the interior districts of Vila Real and Bragança from Braga and Viana do Castelo- the differences between these districts are significant- p36-37 The great conclusion of the study is that in Northwest the geographic barriers are more important that political lines in the y Chromosome data. Maria Brión and Paula Sanchez-Diz note that Galician males moved a lot. It seems that according to rural, legal and cultural tradition in Galicia, the older daughter inherited the family house and lands- p. 50 (I am wondering if that is the case in Minho?) José Fernandes Administrator Race Relations/Community and Cultural Services York Region District School Board Phone: 905 737 4353, Ext. 107 Phone: 416 969 7170, Ext 2409/107 jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca

Yes. Portuguese and Spanish tend to use devotional names (Maria 'da Conceicao,' etc) that lend themselves to these variations. You get discrepancies between (1) the official name on birth records, (2) what people come to be known as familiarly, (3) name transformations that occur when the person migrates to a foreign locale, etc. You have to be careful in distinguishing who's who. ----- Original Message ----- From: <jjvascon@aol.com> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 3:00 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Mary Astor, actress 1920s-1960s, descendant of Madeira Exiles > Ed, > Could Joaquim's wife's name have originally been Maria Josephina? I was in > Jacksonville, Illinois last Thanksgiving and visited the historical > society there. They had copies of records of the 4th Presbyterian Church > of Springfield. Ill which listed Joaquim's wife as Mary Quintel. > I have several female cousins born in the Azores whose names were ie Maria > da Soledade, Maria Nazare, Maria Ruth, all sisters, who are known among > family simply as Soledade, Nazare, and Ruth but when they immigrated to > this country became known among co-workers and non portuguese friends as > "Maria". Couldn't the same thing have happened here? > John Vasconcelos > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ejardim@patmedia.net > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 3:56 AM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Mary Astor, actress 1920s-1960s, descendant of > Madeira Exiles > > > John -- I am familiar with various facets of the Mary Astor connection to > the Exiles history, although I did not pursue the ancestral background. My > notes from a while back indicate only that Joaquim was born about 1828 and > that his wife Josephina was the daughter of Antonio Quintal and Josephina > Vieira Quintal. > > Ed Jardim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <JJVascon@aol.com> > To: <PRT-MADEIRA@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 11:55 AM > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Mary Astor, actress 1920s-1960s,descendant of > Madeira > Exiles > > >>I am new to the list and am interested in the ancestry of actress Mary >>Astor >> (born Lucile Vasconcellos Langhanke), daughter of Helen Marie >> Vasconcellos >> (born Jacksonville, Ill) and Otto Ludwig Wilhelm Langhanke (born Berlin >> Germany). >> Her maternal great grandparents were Joachim (Joaquim) Vasconcellos and >> Mary >> (Maria) Quintel, Protestant exiles from Madeira (via Trinidad). Joachim >> served >> in the Civil War and died in a military hospital in 1862. >> >> I'm just wondering if anybody on the list has any knowledge of her >> Madeira >> ancestry prior to her great grandparents. >> John Vasconcelos >> >> >> ************************************** >> AOL now offers free >> email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at >> http://www.aol.com. >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of > the message > ________________________________________________________________________ > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free > from AOL at AOL.com. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ed, Could Joaquim's wife's name have originally been Maria Josephina? I was in Jacksonville, Illinois last Thanksgiving and visited the historical society there. They had copies of records of the 4th Presbyterian Church of Springfield. Ill which listed Joaquim's wife as Mary Quintel. I have several female cousins born in the Azores whose names were ie Maria da Soledade, Maria Nazare, Maria Ruth, all sisters, who are known among family simply as Soledade, Nazare, and Ruth but when they immigrated to this country became known among co-workers and non portuguese friends as "Maria". Couldn't the same thing have happened here? John Vasconcelos -----Original Message----- From: ejardim@patmedia.net To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 3:56 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Mary Astor, actress 1920s-1960s, descendant of Madeira Exiles John -- I am familiar with various facets of the Mary Astor connection to the Exiles history, although I did not pursue the ancestral background. My notes from a while back indicate only that Joaquim was born about 1828 and that his wife Josephina was the daughter of Antonio Quintal and Josephina Vieira Quintal. Ed Jardim ----- Original Message ----- From: <JJVascon@aol.com> To: <PRT-MADEIRA@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 11:55 AM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Mary Astor, actress 1920s-1960s,descendant of Madeira Exiles >I am new to the list and am interested in the ancestry of actress Mary >Astor > (born Lucile Vasconcellos Langhanke), daughter of Helen Marie Vasconcellos > (born Jacksonville, Ill) and Otto Ludwig Wilhelm Langhanke (born Berlin > Germany). > Her maternal great grandparents were Joachim (Joaquim) Vasconcellos and > Mary > (Maria) Quintel, Protestant exiles from Madeira (via Trinidad). Joachim > served > in the Civil War and died in a military hospital in 1862. > > I'm just wondering if anybody on the list has any knowledge of her Madeira > ancestry prior to her great grandparents. > John Vasconcelos > > > ************************************** > AOL now offers free > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at > http://www.aol.com. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.

Greg, It might be easier for you to call them. Just add 011-351 and the number. They will be 8 hours difference from you. It is not very expensive. I am also wondering if your family lived in the Funchal area. I believe that there are other Conservatorios, at least in Santa Cruz and Ponta do Sol. Others on the list might know more about that. I just know that for my father's birth certificate I have to go to Santa Cruz and not Funchal. José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of gregory.lima@comcast.net Sent: February 28, 2007 2:31 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Vital Records Office Hi Christina- Thanks for the address. I will definitely write to a Conservatoria do Registo Civil. It will take me a little while to compose the letter since my command of Portuguese language is minimal...haha. This provides a good opportunity for me to practice. Do you know what background information they'll want to facilitate their search for the record? I have very very little information about the infant...no name, specific date of birth, or date of death. All I know is that he was about 6 months old when he died and that he was born in about 1929. I do know names and birthdates for his parents. Also, do you know what the charge will be and if they accept personal checks in U.S. dollars? I know they do at a Biblioteca Publica e Arquivo in Azores. Thank you, Christina. I appreciate your help! Best regards, Greg Lima Washington State -------------- Original message -------------- From: CMRB83@aol.com > Hi Greg, > > I recently requested through ARM how to receive a copy of my grandfather's > 1975 death certificate. > > Their reply was: > > Conservatoria do Registo Civil do Funchal > Av. Calouste Gulbenkian > Edificio 2000 r/c > 9000-011 Funchal Madeira Portugal > > Tel: 291223228/291231968 > Fax: 291222116 > E-mail: _crc.funchal@dgrn.mj.pt_ (mailto:crc.funchal@dgrn.mj.pt) > > Christina > > > > > > ************************************** AOL now offers free > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at > http://www.aol.com. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Christina- Thanks for the address. I will definitely write to a Conservatoria do Registo Civil. It will take me a little while to compose the letter since my command of Portuguese language is minimal...haha. This provides a good opportunity for me to practice. Do you know what background information they'll want to facilitate their search for the record? I have very very little information about the infant...no name, specific date of birth, or date of death. All I know is that he was about 6 months old when he died and that he was born in about 1929. I do know names and birthdates for his parents. Also, do you know what the charge will be and if they accept personal checks in U.S. dollars? I know they do at a Biblioteca Publica e Arquivo in Azores. Thank you, Christina. I appreciate your help! Best regards, Greg Lima Washington State -------------- Original message -------------- From: CMRB83@aol.com > Hi Greg, > > I recently requested through ARM how to receive a copy of my grandfather's > 1975 death certificate. > > Their reply was: > > Conservatoria do Registo Civil do Funchal > Av. Calouste Gulbenkian > Edificio 2000 r/c > 9000-011 Funchal Madeira Portugal > > Tel: 291223228/291231968 > Fax: 291222116 > E-mail: _crc.funchal@dgrn.mj.pt_ (mailto:crc.funchal@dgrn.mj.pt) > > Christina > > > > > > ************************************** AOL now offers free > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at > http://www.aol.com. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

I'm still searching for information about a young relation, the infant son of my dad's cousin who died at around 6 moths of age in about 1929 in Madeira. Someone suggested that I contact the Vital Records Office. Can anyone provide the address and give me suggestions on how I go about requesting information? Thank you, Greg Lima Washington State

Hi Greg, I recently requested through ARM how to receive a copy of my grandfather's 1975 death certificate. Their reply was: Conservatoria do Registo Civil do Funchal Av. Calouste Gulbenkian Edificio 2000 r/c 9000-011 Funchal Madeira Portugal Tel: 291223228/291231968 Fax: 291222116 E-mail: _crc.funchal@dgrn.mj.pt_ (mailto:crc.funchal@dgrn.mj.pt) Christina <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.

Sharon Rodriguez wrote: > Hi, My name is Sharon Patrick Rodriguez, and I'm new to the list. I'm trying to find some information on my grandmother, Rosa de Mendonca, born in Santa Cruz, Madeira, in 1895. Her parents were Joaquina das Neves and Manuel de Mendonca. <snip> I have lots of Medonças, but they are all from Porto Santo.... j