On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 19:34:23 +0100, Mary Frost <tiamaria@frostdesign.com> wrote: > Leandro: > > Don't know if there is a connection as the spellings on names can get > confusing....there are Enes people on the film I am viewing from Gaula > from > the same time period. Perhaps someone else knows for sure if Anes and > Enes > could be considered one and the same name like de Crasto/de Castro. Yes, they are the same thing, but it's a patronimic, so don't hold your breath for finding a connection between the Gaulese Anes and the Ribeira Brava ones. ;) -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio
On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 19:21:48 +0100, <Gregobhte1@aol.com> wrote: > Hey folks.... > Anyone of you know anything about the family ANES in Madeira??? Hi Leandro, First of all, it would be better to clarify that there is no such thing as an "Anes family", as Anes, Eanes and Enes, which are all the same thing, simply mean "son of João", it's a patronimic. Now, for your specific case. > Theres this > guys, FERNAO DE ANES (my 12th great-grandfather) that married INES > AFONSO and > are the parents of CATARINA VAZ (all from Ribeira Brava) This Catarina > married in 1570 Sebastiao de Abreu...so it means that Fernao and his > wife Ines are > even from earlier dates then 1550.... > So i was wondering if anyone ever heard about him or anyone else from his > family?? This is related to the HOMEM family. I don't know if Catarina Vaz, married to Sebastião de ABreu, was the daughter of Fernão d' Anes and Inês Afonso, though it is presumed. I do have for almost certain that one Catarina Vaz, daughter of the couple Fernão d Anes and Inês Afonso, married Miguel Gonçalves, a guy from Mosteiro de Oliveira (Portugal Mainland) at 1584, Ribeira Brava, and they had a daughter, Inês, my 10th g-g-mother. Fernão d' Anes was a farmer, and lived at Lombo Furado (Ribª Brava). This is what is stated on the marriage record of Catarina and Miguel (which is a copy). Not even once the HOMEM surname appears on this descendancy, as far as I know. Now, this other Catarina Vaz, which married Sebastião de Abreu, appears to have had children of him until the 1590's. So, unless some extraordinary situation took place, they cannot be the same. Also, the surname HOMEM appears to be related to this 2nd Catarina Vaz, and appears on his descendancy. Fernão d' Anes is said to be the son of Pedro Afonso, Knight, and Leonor Homem d' El Rei, possibly to explain the HOMEM surname on the descendancy of his (false?) daughter Catarina Vaz. I would not give much credit to this, however. Best regards, Paulo -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio
On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 16:27:21 +0100, Betty <bbffrrpp@comcast.net> wrote: [..] > The MOURA family was in Sao Roque, but I have not been able to find out > their town. I have been told by people on the Azores List that the > MOURA's might have come to Sao Miguel from another island ! Hello Betty, We have Mouras here at Madeira. I know of a family still living in Porto da Cruz, at a place named Cruz da Guarda. The name came to this island by way of a daughter of João de Moura, Royal Hunter of D. Manuel. She was Cecília de Moura, married to João de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, as any Nobiliary will tell. The surname Moura appears early in popular and middle classes living near the noble Mouras mannor at Caniço, therefore I presume there is a relation. I first detect them in Machico, then a branch established at Porto da Cruz using the surname Moura e Mendonça. This branch, which at a time attained some social proeminence, decayed into poverty. Some of them moved then into Câmara de Lobos. It is possible that one branch passed into the Azores. Best regards, Paulo -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio
On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:49:00 +0100, Cece Camara <cece@soccer4all.com> wrote: [..] > I have one question for Leandro- I show the mother of Antonio Teixeira > Cardosa as Isabel de Gois (not Ilena,nor do I have a daughter Ilena)-not > sure if I got it from HHN or Nobiliario da Ilha da Madeira, Portugal, It's probably Isabel. There seems to have been a daughter Helena indeed, who maried Mem de Ornelas e Vasconcelos. -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 10:12:44 +0100, <gregobhte1@aol.com> wrote: > Hi Folks..... > after a research that took me at least 1 year to be made, i finally > could trace back my ancestry to Tristao Vaz Teixeira and John Drummond. > Thru Tristao i descend via his son Lancarote Teixeira and thru > Lancarote's daughter, Ilena (Helena) de Gois and thru her son Antonio > Teixeira Cardoso and thru Antonio's son Francisco de Gois Cardoso that > married Joana Dias de Vares (being her 5th great-Granddaughter of John > Drummond). Thru Francisco's son Rafael de Gois that married Maria Galvoa > Teixeira and thru their daughter Ana de Gois that is my 10th > great-Grandmother. > Anyone of you have any more info about TRistao Vaz Teixeira or maybe his > son Lancarote?? Tristão Vaz possibly wasn't a Teixeira at all, but his wife seems to be, what gave origin to the Teixeira surname on the descendancy. Unfortunately, unlike the Capitoa Constança Rodrigues, Mrs. Branca Teixeira was an obscure figure, on which we don't know nothing about. She wasn't quite sucessful at passing moral values to her many children, as their history is riddled with scandals and infamy. Tristão Vaz himself seem to have been quite a rude man, who was even sent to prision by the Infante or the King, for crimes against some of his settlers. He is often refered to as "Tristão da Ilha" on contemporary documentation, sometimes as Tristão Vaz, but never with the Teixeira surname. As for Lançarote, he was the archetypal dandy, a superb Knight and hunter, often organizing tournaments and lavish parties. His tradition was passed on to his son António Teixeira, so magnificent that people used to call him the "little King". In any case, all this splendour ended early on, and the family decayed in poverty in almost all of its many branches. Today you can find many Teixeiras with direct male line from Lançarote working the fields of Porto da Cruz and Faial as poor peasants, unaware of the "nobility" of their blood. > or even about Joana Dias de Vares and her ancestor John Drummond??? John Drummond is a well known figure, son of another of the same name, Sir John Drummond, Lord of Stobhall, Chief of the Drummond Clan in Scotland, and his wife Elizabeth Sinclair. Sir John Drummond, Lord of Stobhall, was brother of Anabela, Queen of Scotland, wife of Robert III (Stuart). Don't ask me why this fellow chose to stay in this island (it appears that he came here first by chance), but his ancestry appears to be certain and documentally proven. He is the origin of the surnames Drummond and Escórcio in Madeira. Now tell me, how do you traced Joana Dias de Vares to John Drummond? If that's the who married Francisco de Góis Cardoso, she appears to be the daughter of António Dias, a barrel crafter from Guimaraes (Portugal mainland), and Maria de Vares, from Funchal, married in 1550 at Sé. I don't know of any relation of them with the Drummonds. > And also if anyone of you are descended of some of those individuals, it > would be great to share some family lines altogether. > thank you > Leandro -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio
On Mon, 28 May 2007 13:50:41 +0100, Mary Frost <tiamaria@frostdesign.com> wrote: > Hello Leandro; > > Thank you for your offer. I am still unsuccessful in obtaining the > book!!! > > Do you know anything about Antonia da Mata who married Manuel de Freitas > circa 1700? I cannot find a record of their marriage. > > Manuel de Freitas parent's were from Gaula and I have been able to track > them without much problem. Can you tell who they are? -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio
On Fri, 18 May 2007 21:44:48 +0100, Mary Frost <tiamaria@frostdesign.com> wrote: > Hello everyone: > > > I am currently researching a branch of my family from Santa Beatriz, > Gaula. > I have seen a few records that contain unusual notations and hope someone > can explain. The given names are not followed by a surname but by the > printed letters A and/or U. Can you give a specific case? > I was once told that the letters AX after a name often meant that someone > was a "New" catholic. (convert) Is this another variation on the same > concept? That would be XN, not AX, but I don't expect to ever see this notation on a Parish book. Except, of course, the well known case of Sé, where some nasty priests amused themselves by writing notes on the marging stating who was and who wasn't XN. One funny case I always remember is this one: "Gramachos, Guterres e Uzadamar, não pode o Cónego Magistral alimpar" (or something close to this). As it appears there was a sort of silent battle between those priests, at different points in time, to determine who was marked with "impure blood". In any case, you'll never see someone officialy recorded as Christian New on Parish books. To the secular Church, at least on theory, they were Christians like the others. -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio
On Tue, 29 May 2007 04:12:29 +0100, Mary Frost <tiamaria@frostdesign.com> wrote: > Just a bit of information I learned while viewing various records... > there > are often marriage records mixed in with the baptism records. These > marriages are often NOT listed in the index on the archives website. One of the earliest Christenings Books of Sé, the first one, if I well recall, has a whole bunch of marriages intermixed, about 20 or 30, maybe more, still not listed on the index. However, the people working at the archives is now indexing all Christenings, thus in due time they will appear listed on the proper place, I presume. -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio
On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 16:27:21 +0100, Betty <bbffrrpp@comcast.net> wrote: [..] > The MOURA family was in Sao Roque, but I have not been able to find out > their town. I have been told by people on the Azores List that the > MOURA's might have come to Sao Miguel from another island ! Hello Betty, We have Mouras here at Madeira. I know of a family still living in Porto da Cruz, at a place named Cruz da Guarda. The name came to this island by way of a daughter of João de Moura, Royal Hunter of D. Manuel. She was Cecília de Moura, married to João de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, as any Nobiliary will tell. The surname Moura appears early in popular and middle classes living near the noble Mouras mannor at Caniço, therefore I presume there is a relation. I first detect them in Machico, then a branch established at Porto da Cruz using the surname Moura e Mendonça. This branch, which at a time attained some social proeminence, decayed into poverty. Some of them moved then into Câmara de Lobos. It is possible that one branch passed into the Azores. Best regards, Paulo -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio
Thanks Luis and Luis Beal. I guess the Fernandes in Caniço weren't mad at each other for the next 400 years! I suspect that baptism certificates are important source of information, if you can get them. Luis K., from your experience, were baptisms kept in Portugal or in Madeira as duly as marriage? About deaths? José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of luis_k_w@clix.pt Sent: May 29, 2007 12:03 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] lost marriage records Jose e Luis Beal, That was the tradition until the 1800's, in mainland Portugal too. People were given a christian name (first name) in Baptism. When they grew up, they were to choose a FAMILY name at their first official act (very often at their marriage, or when they bought/sold some property, or when they went to University, etc.). They could pick any surname from their (8)great-grandparents, or so. If they were mad at their father or brothers, they would obviously pick a different surname from theirs. Earlier (1500's-1600's), when records were harder to keep and family names were easy to change, we often see new-christians using no-matter-what surname, probably in order to avoid association to other new-christians (their parents and brothers). Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- I never thought about it, but just giving the first name of the child in the baptism certificate seemed to give that child the opportunity to pick their surname later on. Thanks for that insight. Name change may be common but the Fernandes from Caniço kept heir name from 1687 on, so it was a surprise. José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis Beal Sent: May 29, 2007 11:14 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] lost marriage records Name changes were very common in Madeira. The main reason was prestige, meaning if Dias was a well to do family and Fernandes was not the children would pick which one they wanted to carry as their last name. I am sure that fondness for a particular grandparent also helped the grandkids pick their last name as opposed to their fathers. Also shame was a good reason for a name change. Or maybe they just flipped coins to help them choose. I have a couple of families where the kids all carry different last names. I do not believe it was their fathers' choice to give them different last names but the kids would pick them themselves when they grew up. Otherwise the baptism record would list the complete name instead of just a first name. The same was common in the mainland Portugal as I am finding out. Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator ----- Original Message ---- From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 7:10:55 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] lost marriage records Thank Mary for sharing your experience. I think it is of importance to many members of this list. I was not aware that marriages in the baptism books were often not listed in the Madeira Archives. Do other listers have a similar experience? In Caniço we have mixed records. In response to your earlier query on the variations of name, I have tried different combinations and it doesn't seem to work. At this moment I know that Jorge gave Dias as a surname to one of his oldest sons who married in 1662. He gave Fernandes to my ancestor who married in 1687. I suspect that Inacio was his youngest son. I don't know if there are other sons in between. I am looking into it. But in both certificates it shows parents as Jorge Dias and Isabel Fernandes and it seems they were alive at the time. For the moment I am screaming, because I don't have a reason for the name change, other than speculation. Besides I was a Fernandes for 400 years and now I am a Dias! Well, that does it! Nothing negative about all the Dias in the world, I just can't get my head around the name change. Have a nice day. José Fernandes or Dias or.... -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mary Frost Sent: May 28, 2007 11:12 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] lost marriage records Just a bit of information I learned while viewing various records... there are often marriage records mixed in with the baptism records. These marriages are often NOT listed in the index on the archives website. As in the case of one record I remember seeing- the baptism of a baby took place on the same day as the marriage of the baby's parents. Another had the baptism of one of the adults taking place on the same day as their marriage. I read EVERY record on the films. So far I have had to look at records from Machico, Gaula, Canical and Aqua de Pena to find my various ancestors (on the side of my father's mother). I know I also need to look at Canico and possibly Santa Cruz. This could easily become a full time job. :-) As for my father's father's family.. that is a whole other part of Madeira. Jose: Have you looked for variations on the names used by Jorge and Isabel? For example- some of my ancestors used different names at different points in time. That is the cause of much hair pulling for me! Often when viewing children's and grandchildren's baptism and marriage records, I have come across variations on the names such as Francisco Goncalves also called Francisco do Nascimento on some of his grandchildren's records. Doesn't it make you want to scream? :-) Mary ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/
Hello, I've just resubscribed to the List because I would like to get in contact with person on the List. I e-mailed with Ryan Owen in 2003 about his mother's cousins ... the daughters of Gabriel SANTOS of Somerville, MA, USA. Ryan, if you will contact me, I will tell you of some "family news." Thank you for your time. Betty (near Lowell, MA, USA) FYI to others: I am researching a PACHECO and MOURA family of Cambridge, MA. Antonio PACHECO and "Elsie" MOURA came from Sao Miguel, Azores, to Massachusetts around 1905. The PACHECO family was in Sao Roque, Sao Migue. The MOURA family was in Sao Roque, but I have not been able to find out their town. I have been told by people on the Azores List that the MOURA's might have come to Sao Miguel from another island ! New List created on Feb. 1: CAN-USA-MIGRATION For Genealogy researchers, please remember to check the archives of the Lists & Boards for both your surnames and place-names.
Jose e Luis Beal, That was the tradition until the 1800's, in mainland Portugal too. People were given a christian name (first name) in Baptism. When they grew up, they were to choose a FAMILY name at their first official act (very often at their marriage, or when they bought/sold some property, or when they went to University, etc.). They could pick any surname from their (8)great-grandparents, or so. If they were mad at their father or brothers, they would obviously pick a different surname from theirs. Earlier (1500's-1600's), when records were harder to keep and family names were easy to change, we often see new-christians using no-matter-what surname, probably in order to avoid association to other new-christians (their parents and brothers). Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- I never thought about it, but just giving the first name of the child in the baptism certificate seemed to give that child the opportunity to pick their surname later on. Thanks for that insight. Name change may be common but the Fernandes from Caniço kept heir name from 1687 on, so it was a surprise. José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis Beal Sent: May 29, 2007 11:14 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] lost marriage records Name changes were very common in Madeira. The main reason was prestige, meaning if Dias was a well to do family and Fernandes was not the children would pick which one they wanted to carry as their last name. I am sure that fondness for a particular grandparent also helped the grandkids pick their last name as opposed to their fathers. Also shame was a good reason for a name change. Or maybe they just flipped coins to help them choose. I have a couple of families where the kids all carry different last names. I do not believe it was their fathers' choice to give them different last names but the kids would pick them themselves when they grew up. Otherwise the baptism record would list the complete name instead of just a first name. The same was common in the mainland Portugal as I am finding out. Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator ----- Original Message ---- From: "Fernandes, Jose" jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 7:10:55 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] lost marriage records Thank Mary for sharing your experience. I think it is of importance to many members of this list. I was not aware that marriages in the baptism books were often not listed in the Madeira Archives. Do other listers have a similar experience? In Caniço we have mixed records. In response to your earlier query on the variations of name, I have tried different combinations and it doesn't seem to work. At this moment I know that Jorge gave Dias as a surname to one of his oldest sons who married in 1662. He gave Fernandes to my ancestor who married in 1687. I suspect that Inacio was his youngest son. I don't know if there are other sons in between. I am looking into it. But in both certificates it shows parents as Jorge Dias and Isabel Fernandes and it seems they were alive at the time. For the moment I am screaming, because I don't have a reason for the name change, other than speculation. Besides I was a Fernandes for 400 years and now I am a Dias! Well, that does it! Nothing negative about all the Dias in the world, I just can't get my head around the name change. Have a nice day. José Fernandes or Dias or.... -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mary Frost Sent: May 28, 2007 11:12 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] lost marriage records Just a bit of information I learned while viewing various records... there are often marriage records mixed in with the baptism records. These marriages are often NOT listed in the index on the archives website. As in the case of one record I remember seeing- the baptism of a baby took place on the same day as the marriage of the baby's parents. Another had the baptism of one of the adults taking place on the same day as their marriage. I read EVERY record on the films. So far I have had to look at records from Machico, Gaula, Canical and Aqua de Pena to find my various ancestors (on the side of my father's mother). I know I also need to look at Canico and possibly Santa Cruz. This could easily become a full time job. :-) As for my father's father's family.. that is a whole other part of Madeira. Jose: Have you looked for variations on the names used by Jorge and Isabel? For example- some of my ancestors used different names at different points in time. That is the cause of much hair pulling for me! Often when viewing children's and grandchildren's baptism and marriage records, I have come across variations on the names such as Francisco Goncalves also called Francisco do Nascimento on some of his grandchildren's records. Doesn't it make you want to scream? :-) Mary ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/
I never thought about it, but just giving the first name of the child in the baptism certificate seemed to give that child the opportunity to pick their surname later on. Thanks for that insight. Name change may be common but the Fernandes from Caniço kept heir name from 1687 on, so it was a surprise. José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luis Beal Sent: May 29, 2007 11:14 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] lost marriage records Name changes were very common in Madeira. The main reason was prestige, meaning if Dias was a well to do family and Fernandes was not the children would pick which one they wanted to carry as their last name. I am sure that fondness for a particular grandparent also helped the grandkids pick their last name as opposed to their fathers. Also shame was a good reason for a name change. Or maybe they just flipped coins to help them choose. I have a couple of families where the kids all carry different last names. I do not believe it was their fathers' choice to give them different last names but the kids would pick them themselves when they grew up. Otherwise the baptism record would list the complete name instead of just a first name. The same was common in the mainland Portugal as I am finding out. Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator ----- Original Message ---- From: "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 7:10:55 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] lost marriage records Thank Mary for sharing your experience. I think it is of importance to many members of this list. I was not aware that marriages in the baptism books were often not listed in the Madeira Archives. Do other listers have a similar experience? In Caniço we have mixed records. In response to your earlier query on the variations of name, I have tried different combinations and it doesn't seem to work. At this moment I know that Jorge gave Dias as a surname to one of his oldest sons who married in 1662. He gave Fernandes to my ancestor who married in 1687. I suspect that Inacio was his youngest son. I don't know if there are other sons in between. I am looking into it. But in both certificates it shows parents as Jorge Dias and Isabel Fernandes and it seems they were alive at the time. For the moment I am screaming, because I don't have a reason for the name change, other than speculation. Besides I was a Fernandes for 400 years and now I am a Dias! Well, that does it! Nothing negative about all the Dias in the world, I just can't get my head around the name change. Have a nice day. José Fernandes or Dias or.... -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mary Frost Sent: May 28, 2007 11:12 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] lost marriage records Just a bit of information I learned while viewing various records... there are often marriage records mixed in with the baptism records. These marriages are often NOT listed in the index on the archives website. As in the case of one record I remember seeing- the baptism of a baby took place on the same day as the marriage of the baby's parents. Another had the baptism of one of the adults taking place on the same day as their marriage. I read EVERY record on the films. So far I have had to look at records from Machico, Gaula, Canical and Aqua de Pena to find my various ancestors (on the side of my father's mother). I know I also need to look at Canico and possibly Santa Cruz. This could easily become a full time job. :-) As for my father's father's family.. that is a whole other part of Madeira. Jose: Have you looked for variations on the names used by Jorge and Isabel? For example- some of my ancestors used different names at different points in time. That is the cause of much hair pulling for me! Often when viewing children's and grandchildren's baptism and marriage records, I have come across variations on the names such as Francisco Goncalves also called Francisco do Nascimento on some of his grandchildren's records. Doesn't it make you want to scream? :-) Mary ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Thank Mary for sharing your experience. I think it is of importance to many members of this list. I was not aware that marriages in the baptism books were often not listed in the Madeira Archives. Do other listers have a similar experience? In Caniço we have mixed records. In response to your earlier query on the variations of name, I have tried different combinations and it doesn't seem to work. At this moment I know that Jorge gave Dias as a surname to one of his oldest sons who married in 1662. He gave Fernandes to my ancestor who married in 1687. I suspect that Inacio was his youngest son. I don't know if there are other sons in between. I am looking into it. But in both certificates it shows parents as Jorge Dias and Isabel Fernandes and it seems they were alive at the time. For the moment I am screaming, because I don't have a reason for the name change, other than speculation. Besides I was a Fernandes for 400 years and now I am a Dias! Well, that does it! Nothing negative about all the Dias in the world, I just can't get my head around the name change. Have a nice day. José Fernandes or Dias or.... -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mary Frost Sent: May 28, 2007 11:12 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] lost marriage records Just a bit of information I learned while viewing various records... there are often marriage records mixed in with the baptism records. These marriages are often NOT listed in the index on the archives website. As in the case of one record I remember seeing- the baptism of a baby took place on the same day as the marriage of the baby's parents. Another had the baptism of one of the adults taking place on the same day as their marriage. I read EVERY record on the films. So far I have had to look at records from Machico, Gaula, Canical and Aqua de Pena to find my various ancestors (on the side of my father's mother). I know I also need to look at Canico and possibly Santa Cruz. This could easily become a full time job. :-) As for my father's father's family.. that is a whole other part of Madeira. Jose: Have you looked for variations on the names used by Jorge and Isabel? For example- some of my ancestors used different names at different points in time. That is the cause of much hair pulling for me! Often when viewing children's and grandchildren's baptism and marriage records, I have come across variations on the names such as Francisco Goncalves also called Francisco do Nascimento on some of his grandchildren's records. Doesn't it make you want to scream? :-) Mary ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Name changes were very common in Madeira. The main reason was prestige, meaning if Dias was a well to do family and Fernandes was not the children would pick which one they wanted to carry as their last name. I am sure that fondness for a particular grandparent also helped the grandkids pick their last name as opposed to their fathers. Also shame was a good reason for a name change. Or maybe they just flipped coins to help them choose. I have a couple of families where the kids all carry different last names. I do not believe it was their fathers' choice to give them different last names but the kids would pick them themselves when they grew up. Otherwise the baptism record would list the complete name instead of just a first name. The same was common in the mainland Portugal as I am finding out. Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator ----- Original Message ---- From: "Fernandes, Jose" <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 7:10:55 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] lost marriage records Thank Mary for sharing your experience. I think it is of importance to many members of this list. I was not aware that marriages in the baptism books were often not listed in the Madeira Archives. Do other listers have a similar experience? In Caniço we have mixed records. In response to your earlier query on the variations of name, I have tried different combinations and it doesn't seem to work. At this moment I know that Jorge gave Dias as a surname to one of his oldest sons who married in 1662. He gave Fernandes to my ancestor who married in 1687. I suspect that Inacio was his youngest son. I don't know if there are other sons in between. I am looking into it. But in both certificates it shows parents as Jorge Dias and Isabel Fernandes and it seems they were alive at the time. For the moment I am screaming, because I don't have a reason for the name change, other than speculation. Besides I was a Fernandes for 400 years and now I am a Dias! Well, that does it! Nothing negative about all the Dias in the world, I just can't get my head around the name change. Have a nice day. José Fernandes or Dias or.... -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mary Frost Sent: May 28, 2007 11:12 PM To: PRT-MADEIRA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] lost marriage records Just a bit of information I learned while viewing various records... there are often marriage records mixed in with the baptism records. These marriages are often NOT listed in the index on the archives website. As in the case of one record I remember seeing- the baptism of a baby took place on the same day as the marriage of the baby's parents. Another had the baptism of one of the adults taking place on the same day as their marriage. I read EVERY record on the films. So far I have had to look at records from Machico, Gaula, Canical and Aqua de Pena to find my various ancestors (on the side of my father's mother). I know I also need to look at Canico and possibly Santa Cruz. This could easily become a full time job. :-) As for my father's father's family.. that is a whole other part of Madeira. Jose: Have you looked for variations on the names used by Jorge and Isabel? For example- some of my ancestors used different names at different points in time. That is the cause of much hair pulling for me! Often when viewing children's and grandchildren's baptism and marriage records, I have come across variations on the names such as Francisco Goncalves also called Francisco do Nascimento on some of his grandchildren's records. Doesn't it make you want to scream? :-) Mary ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________________________________Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC
Just a bit of information I learned while viewing various records... there are often marriage records mixed in with the baptism records. These marriages are often NOT listed in the index on the archives website. As in the case of one record I remember seeing- the baptism of a baby took place on the same day as the marriage of the baby's parents. Another had the baptism of one of the adults taking place on the same day as their marriage. I read EVERY record on the films. So far I have had to look at records from Machico, Gaula, Canical and Aqua de Pena to find my various ancestors (on the side of my father's mother). I know I also need to look at Canico and possibly Santa Cruz. This could easily become a full time job. :-) As for my father's father's family.. that is a whole other part of Madeira. Jose: Have you looked for variations on the names used by Jorge and Isabel? For example- some of my ancestors used different names at different points in time. That is the cause of much hair pulling for me! Often when viewing children's and grandchildren's baptism and marriage records, I have come across variations on the names such as Francisco Goncalves also called Francisco do Nascimento on some of his grandchildren's records. Doesn't it make you want to scream? :-) Mary
some dates are missing from the records of every single parish in Madeira, so it could be that it was damaged or even could be that in that particular year the records havent started yet. Either way there are some lines in the family that becomes a dead end :( Leandro -----Original Message----- From: Fernandes, Jose <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, 28 May 2007 7.48pm Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] question about marriage records Thanks Mary. I also have that problem. I have a Jorge Dias and Isabel Fernandes n the mid 1600's but can't find the marriage. I have found another brother to y direct ancestor, but no marriage of the parents. hat do you think happened? Many things I guess! But what is the likeliest? osé .s. Gaula is not too far from Caniço. In fact both belong to Santa Cruz -----Original Message----- rom: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] n Behalf Of Mary Frost ent: May 28, 2007 2:41 PM o: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com ubject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] question about marriage records Hello Jose: I have copies of baptism records and also various marriage and baptism ecords from children of Manuel and Antonia that list both parents and randparents. I just cannot find the actual marriage of Manuel and Antonia! Mary da Silva Frost ----Original Message----- rom: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose ent: Monday, May 28, 2007 9:20 AM o: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com ubject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] question about marriage records Mary, For my own information, how do you know Manuel's and Antónia's parents ithout the marriage certificate? From baptismal certificates? have a problem also similar to that one. hanks. osé Fernandes -----Original Message----- rom: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mary Frost ent: May 28, 2007 8:51 AM o: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com ubject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] question about marriage records Hello Leandro; Thank you for your offer. I am still unsuccessful in obtaining the book!!! Do you know anything about Antonia da Mata who married Manuel de Freitas irca 1700? I cannot find a record of their marriage. Manuel de Freitas parent's were from Gaula and I have been able to track hem without much problem. Antonia's parents were Manuel Pires and Maria da Mata married Nov 10, 1678 ossa Senhora da Luz, Gaula. Manuel Pires son of Antonio Pires and Maria de outo (married 1653- Gaula), Maria da Mata daughter of Estevao Pires and atarina da Mata (married 1650-Gaula). Any and all information appreciated. Thanks, ary -----Original Message----- rom: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Gregobhte1@aol.com ent: Friday, May 18, 2007 5:27 PM o: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com ubject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] question about marriage records Hi Mary.... have the book called "FAMILIAS DA GAULA" families from Gaula....so if you need anything from there just let me know. Maybe i can help :) eandro ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to RT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the uotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to RT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the uotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to RT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the uotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message ________________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE AOL Email account with 2GB of storage. Plus, share and store photos and experience exclusively recorded live music Sessions from your favourite artists. Find out more at http://info.aol.co.uk/joinnow/?ncid=548.
Thanks Mary. I also have that problem. I have a Jorge Dias and Isabel Fernandes in the mid 1600's but can't find the marriage. I have found another brother to my direct ancestor, but no marriage of the parents. What do you think happened? Many things I guess! But what is the likeliest? José p.s. Gaula is not too far from Caniço. In fact both belong to Santa Cruz -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mary Frost Sent: May 28, 2007 2:41 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] question about marriage records Hello Jose: I have copies of baptism records and also various marriage and baptism records from children of Manuel and Antonia that list both parents and grandparents. I just cannot find the actual marriage of Manuel and Antonia! Mary da Silva Frost -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 9:20 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] question about marriage records Mary, For my own information, how do you know Manuel's and Antónia's parents without the marriage certificate? From baptismal certificates? I have a problem also similar to that one. Thanks. José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mary Frost Sent: May 28, 2007 8:51 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] question about marriage records Hello Leandro; Thank you for your offer. I am still unsuccessful in obtaining the book!!! Do you know anything about Antonia da Mata who married Manuel de Freitas circa 1700? I cannot find a record of their marriage. Manuel de Freitas parent's were from Gaula and I have been able to track them without much problem. Antonia's parents were Manuel Pires and Maria da Mata married Nov 10, 1678 Nossa Senhora da Luz, Gaula. Manuel Pires son of Antonio Pires and Maria de Couto (married 1653- Gaula), Maria da Mata daughter of Estevao Pires and Catarina da Mata (married 1650-Gaula). Any and all information appreciated. Thanks, Mary -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Gregobhte1@aol.com Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 5:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] question about marriage records Hi Mary.... i have the book called "FAMILIAS DA GAULA" families from Gaula....so if you need anything from there just let me know. Maybe i can help :) Leandro ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hello Jose: I have copies of baptism records and also various marriage and baptism records from children of Manuel and Antonia that list both parents and grandparents. I just cannot find the actual marriage of Manuel and Antonia! Mary da Silva Frost -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 9:20 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] question about marriage records Mary, For my own information, how do you know Manuel's and Antónia's parents without the marriage certificate? From baptismal certificates? I have a problem also similar to that one. Thanks. José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mary Frost Sent: May 28, 2007 8:51 AM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] question about marriage records Hello Leandro; Thank you for your offer. I am still unsuccessful in obtaining the book!!! Do you know anything about Antonia da Mata who married Manuel de Freitas circa 1700? I cannot find a record of their marriage. Manuel de Freitas parent's were from Gaula and I have been able to track them without much problem. Antonia's parents were Manuel Pires and Maria da Mata married Nov 10, 1678 Nossa Senhora da Luz, Gaula. Manuel Pires son of Antonio Pires and Maria de Couto (married 1653- Gaula), Maria da Mata daughter of Estevao Pires and Catarina da Mata (married 1650-Gaula). Any and all information appreciated. Thanks, Mary -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Gregobhte1@aol.com Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 5:27 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] question about marriage records Hi Mary.... i have the book called "FAMILIAS DA GAULA" families from Gaula....so if you need anything from there just let me know. Maybe i can help :) Leandro ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hello Leandro: We are looking at two different couples. My Manuel Pires and Maria da Mata were married Nov 10, 1678 in Gaula. Thanks anyway. Mary -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Gregobhte1@aol.com Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 1:07 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] question about marriage records Hi Mary..... Manuel Pires is my 9th great-grand uncle and Maria da Mata also is my 9th great-grand aunt. they were married in 21 nov 1650 in Gaula (records on the book pag 411). So with that info i dont know if they are the same pepole that you are looking for. let me know if those are any possibilities Thank you Leandro ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message