[Part 1] On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 22:45:07 +0100, Scot Austin <scotaustin@comcast.net> wrote: > Paulo Gomes Jardim wrote: >> On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 23:25:17 +0100, Scot Austin <scotaustin@comcast.net> >> wrote: >> >> [..] >> >>> I have started a rudimentary database from historical sources of >>> Madeiran colonists prior to the keeping of patish records hoping to >>> someday bridge the gap to documented Madeirans. In it I show two >>> daughters of John Drummond and Branca Affonco with the name Annes they >>> are Caterina Annes and Izabel Annes Escorcio both born in Santa Cruz >>> about the 1440's. Izabel married Joao Leira. Perhaps Branca was related >>> to the Annes family. >>> >> >> Not at all. In this case, they are called Anes because her father was >> João, the famous João da Escócia, or John Drummond. >> > Thanks, I did not realize Anes was a patronymic as it bears little > resemblance to João. Perhaps John Drummond was called Ian in Scotland? It has little ressemblance to the modern form João, but if you think about the medieval, latinized YOHANNES, the similarity would become evident. The Spanish have the Ibañez, which has also precisely the same origin.

[sorry for the many replies, there seems to be some problem with this message] On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 22:45:07 +0100, Scot Austin <scotaustin@comcast.net> wrote: > Paulo Gomes Jardim wrote: >> On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 23:25:17 +0100, Scot Austin <scotaustin@comcast.net> >> wrote: >> >> [..] >> >>> I have started a rudimentary database from historical sources of >>> Madeiran colonists prior to the keeping of patish records hoping to >>> someday bridge the gap to documented Madeirans. In it I show two >>> daughters of John Drummond and Branca Affonco with the name Annes they >>> are Caterina Annes and Izabel Annes Escorcio both born in Santa Cruz >>> about the 1440's. Izabel married Joao Leira. Perhaps Branca was related >>> to the Annes family. >>> >> >> Not at all. In this case, they are called Anes because her father was >> João, the famous João da Escócia, or John Drummond. >> > Thanks, I did not realize Anes was a patronymic as it bears little > resemblance to João. Perhaps John Drummond was called Ian in Scotland? It has little ressemblance to the modern form João, but if you think about the medieval, latinized YOHANNES, the similarity would become evident. The Spanish have the Ibañez, which has also precisely the same origin. > I have long been interested in the notion that his grandfather, Prince > Henry Sinclair acquired navigational information on his reputed 1398 Why do you name him Prince? I only have him as Count of Orkney. Can you tell me as well more about that voyage, and the source for it? I have yet to dedicate some time to the research of this part of the family. :-\ > voyage to Nova Scotia that may have been passed on from John's son, João > Escorcio to Cristao Colon. This voyage, the Zeno map and Columbus' > nationality are the subject of much dispute and controversy. But is > fascinating. Eheh - Yes, it's curious, but I don't find it to be much probable. João da Escócia seems to have settled here as a quiet farmer, I don't recall his family to be much involved in navigation affairs. The guys living here traveling to the New World seem to have been rather from the poor or middle class (Escudeiros), guys who managed to find a patron, and there they went, to live an adventurous life at the ocean. It is said that the existance of the New World was common knowledge in Funchal's taverns at the 15th century, and indeed more than one expedition is documented to have been arranged to explore those lands. It's easy to presume that young Cristovão (at the time an obscure sugar merchant, and not very honest at that) stumbled across one of those conversations, managed to gather some drafts and rudimentary maps from the Funchal seaman, and was smart enough to take profit from this. In fact, there's not any need from Bartolomeu Perestrelo presumed navigation charters, or those ones from the Sinclairs. All you need is some coups of wine and a drunked seaman, the rest will come naturally. ;) >>> Also I have a Rodrigo Annes of Santa Cruz father of Izabel Rodrigues >>> Andrada b abt 1488 both died in Calheta. Izabel married Pedro Berenguer >>> Leminhana of Calheta. >>> >> >> Known as Rodrigo Anes da Lombada, dead before 1511, I have him placed in >> Calheta, where his possessions were located, not Santa Cruz. >> Why do you say he's from Santa Cruz? >> > He is shown in the ancestral file with the following information: > > Birth: Abt 1462 > Of Lombada, S.cruz, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal > Death: Jul 1505 > Calheta, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal > Burial: > S.catarina, Lmbda, S.cruz, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal > > Normally I wouldn't put credence in this source, but in this case it was > submitted by the LDS medieval families committee which was meant to > validate from primary sources all information for inclusion, prior to a > certain date, 1600 or so. However, the committee was eventually > dissolved because the members were unable to agree on standards of proof > and they have never published their sources for what had been submitted. I would like to know why they say he is buried in Stª Catarina, when he died in Calheta. In fact there are many Lombadas in Calheta, it's Lombada-land, indeed. His Lombada could easily be one of those. Now, what we know is: From title BERENGUER, Nobiliary of HHN: "Fez Rodrigo Annes testamento em Julho de 1505, e n’elle se diz criado d’o Infante D. Henrique que Deus haja, e se manda sepultar n’a sua Egreja de Sta. Catharina que elle fez n’a Lombada onde morava." Now, we know from here that it's his Will, not necessarly his death, which dates from July 1505. Now, from some extremely valuable, direct source data: The properties of Rodrigo Anes da Lombada were shared among his heirs in 10 Sep 1511 in CALHETA, this according to a transcription made by Dr. Luís de Mello (from his particular collection). His daughter Isabel Rodrigues de Andrade seems to have been made Morgada, and inherited his properties. As you know, she married Pedro Berenguer de Leminhana, a foreigner from Catalunha. They lived at the place which is still know as Lombo do Doutor, one of Calheta's many Lombadas. What we gather from all this is that, most probably, this misterious Lombada of Rodrigo Anes is what is known today as Lombo do Doutor (from Dr. Pedro de Leminhana), and has nothing to do with Santa Cruz. The mentioned Chapel of Santa Catarina must have disappeared long ago, and has no relation with the other in Santa Cruz, which certainly caused the confusion, even if it's on a small valley, and not on any Lombada at all (it's located precisely where the TAP flight crashed back in 1977). As for Rodrigo Anes, his death can be placed between 1505 and 1511, more close to the later. Hope this helps. Paulo -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

I'm having some trouble answering to this message, please tell me if you are able to read my 3 former messages. -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

[sorry for the many replies, there seems to be some problem with this message] On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 22:45:07 +0100, Scot Austin <scotaustin@comcast.net> wrote: > Paulo Gomes Jardim wrote: >> On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 23:25:17 +0100, Scot Austin <scotaustin@comcast.net> >> wrote: >> >> [..] >> >>> I have started a rudimentary database from historical sources of >>> Madeiran colonists prior to the keeping of patish records hoping to >>> someday bridge the gap to documented Madeirans. In it I show two >>> daughters of John Drummond and Branca Affonco with the name Annes they >>> are Caterina Annes and Izabel Annes Escorcio both born in Santa Cruz >>> about the 1440's. Izabel married Joao Leira. Perhaps Branca was related >>> to the Annes family. >>> >> >> Not at all. In this case, they are called Anes because her father was >> João, the famous João da Escócia, or John Drummond. >> > Thanks, I did not realize Anes was a patronymic as it bears little > resemblance to João. Perhaps John Drummond was called Ian in Scotland? It has little ressemblance to the modern form João, but if you think about the medieval, latinized YOHANNES, the similarity would become evident. The Spanish have the Ibañez, which has also precisely the same origin. > I have long been interested in the notion that his grandfather, Prince > Henry Sinclair acquired navigational information on his reputed 1398 Why do you name him Prince? I only have him as Count of Orkney. Can you tell me as well more about that voyage, and the source for it? I have yet to dedicate some time to the research of this part of the family. :-\ > voyage to Nova Scotia that may have been passed on from John's son, João > Escorcio to Cristao Colon. This voyage, the Zeno map and Columbus' > nationality are the subject of much dispute and controversy. But is > fascinating. Eheh - Yes, it's curious, but I don't find it to be much probable. João da Escócia seems to have settled here as a quiet farmer, I don't recall his family to be much involved in navigation affairs. The guys living here traveling to the New World seem to have been rather from the poor or middle class (Escudeiros), guys who managed to find a patron, and there they went, to live an adventurous life at the ocean. It is said that the existance of the New World was common knowledge in Funchal's taverns at the 15th century, and indeed more than one expedition is documented to have been arranged to explore those lands. It's easy to presume that young Cristovão (at the time an obscure sugar merchant, and not very honest at that) stumbled across one of those conversations, managed to gather some drafts and rudimentary maps from the Funchal seaman, and was smart enough to take profit from this. In fact, there's not any need from Bartolomeu Perestrelo presumed navigation charters, or those ones from the Sinclairs. All you need is some coups of wine and a drunked seaman, the rest will come naturally. ;) >>> Also I have a Rodrigo Annes of Santa Cruz father of Izabel Rodrigues >>> Andrada b abt 1488 both died in Calheta. Izabel married Pedro Berenguer >>> Leminhana of Calheta. >>> >> >> Known as Rodrigo Anes da Lombada, dead before 1511, I have him placed in >> Calheta, where his possessions were located, not Santa Cruz. >> Why do you say he's from Santa Cruz? >> > He is shown in the ancestral file with the following information: > > Birth: Abt 1462 > Of Lombada, S.cruz, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal > Death: Jul 1505 > Calheta, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal > Burial: > S.catarina, Lmbda, S.cruz, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal > > Normally I wouldn't put credence in this source, but in this case it was > submitted by the LDS medieval families committee which was meant to > validate from primary sources all information for inclusion, prior to a > certain date, 1600 or so. However, the committee was eventually > dissolved because the members were unable to agree on standards of proof > and they have never published their sources for what had been submitted. I would like to know why they say he is buried in Stª Catarina, when he died in Calheta. In fact there are many Lombadas in Calheta, it's Lombada-land, indeed. His Lombada could easily be one of those. Now, what we know is: From title BERENGUER, Nobiliary of HHN: "Fez Rodrigo Annes testamento em Julho de 1505, e n’elle se diz criado d’o Infante D. Henrique que Deus haja, e se manda sepultar n’a sua Egreja de Sta. Catharina que elle fez n’a Lombada onde morava." Now, we know from here that it's his Will, not necessarly his death, which dates from July 1505. Now, from some extremely valuable, direct source data: The properties of Rodrigo Anes da Lombada were shared among his heirs in 10 Sep 1511 in CALHETA, this according to a transcription made by Dr. Luís de Mello (from his particular collection). His daughter Isabel Rodrigues de Andrade seems to have been made Morgada, and inherited his properties. As you know, she married Pedro Berenguer de Leminhana, a foreigner from Catalunha. They lived at the place which is still know as Lombo do Doutor, one of Calheta's many Lombadas. What we gather from all this is that, most probably, this misterious Lombada of Rodrigo Anes is what is known today as Lombo do Doutor (from Dr. Pedro de Leminhana), and has nothing to do with Santa Cruz. The mentioned Chapel of Santa Catarina must have disappeared long ago, and has no relation with the other in Santa Cruz, which certainly caused the confusion, even if it's on a small valley, and not on any Lombada at all (it's located precisely where the TAP flight crashed back in 1977). As for Rodrigo Anes, his death can be placed between 1505 and 1511, more close to the later. Hope this helps. Paulo -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 22:45:07 +0100, Scot Austin <scotaustin@comcast.net> wrote: > Paulo Gomes Jardim wrote: >> On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 23:25:17 +0100, Scot Austin <scotaustin@comcast.net> >> wrote: >> >> [..] >> >>> I have started a rudimentary database from historical sources of >>> Madeiran colonists prior to the keeping of patish records hoping to >>> someday bridge the gap to documented Madeirans. In it I show two >>> daughters of John Drummond and Branca Affonco with the name Annes they >>> are Caterina Annes and Izabel Annes Escorcio both born in Santa Cruz >>> about the 1440's. Izabel married Joao Leira. Perhaps Branca was related >>> to the Annes family. >>> >> >> Not at all. In this case, they are called Anes because her father was >> João, the famous João da Escócia, or John Drummond. >> > Thanks, I did not realize Anes was a patronymic as it bears little > resemblance to João. Perhaps John Drummond was called Ian in Scotland? It has little ressemblance to the modern form João, but if you think about the medieval, latinized YOHANNES, the similarity would become evident. The Spanish have the Ibañez, which has also precisely the same origin. > I have long been interested in the notion that his grandfather, Prince > Henry Sinclair acquired navigational information on his reputed 1398 Why do you name him Prince? I only have him as Count of Orkney. Can you tell me as well more about that voyage, and the source for it? I have yet to dedicate some time to the research of this part of the family. :-\ > voyage to Nova Scotia that may have been passed on from John's son, João > Escorcio to Cristao Colon. This voyage, the Zeno map and Columbus' > nationality are the subject of much dispute and controversy. But is > fascinating. Eheh - Yes, it's curious, but I don't find it to be much probable. João da Escócia seems to have settled here as a quiet farmer, I don't recall his family to be much involved in navigation affairs. The guys living here traveling to the New World seem to have been rather from the poor or middle class (Escudeiros), guys who managed to find a patron, and there they went, to live an adventurous life at the ocean. It is said that the existance of the New World was common knowledge in Funchal's taverns at the 15th century, and indeed more than one expedition is documented to have been arranged to explore those lands. It's easy to presume that young Cristovão (at the time an obscure sugar merchant, and not very honest at that) stumbled across one of those conversations, managed to gather some drafts and rudimentary maps from the Funchal seaman, and was smart enough to take profit from this. In fact, there's not any need from Bartolomeu Perestrelo presumed navigation charters, or those ones from the Sinclairs. All you need is some coups of wine and a drunked seaman, the rest will come naturally. ;) >>> Also I have a Rodrigo Annes of Santa Cruz father of Izabel Rodrigues >>> Andrada b abt 1488 both died in Calheta. Izabel married Pedro Berenguer >>> Leminhana of Calheta. >>> >> >> Known as Rodrigo Anes da Lombada, dead before 1511, I have him placed in >> Calheta, where his possessions were located, not Santa Cruz. >> Why do you say he's from Santa Cruz? >> > He is shown in the ancestral file with the following information: > > Birth: Abt 1462 > Of Lombada, S.cruz, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal > Death: Jul 1505 > Calheta, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal > Burial: > S.catarina, Lmbda, S.cruz, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal > > Normally I wouldn't put credence in this source, but in this case it was > submitted by the LDS medieval families committee which was meant to > validate from primary sources all information for inclusion, prior to a > certain date, 1600 or so. However, the committee was eventually > dissolved because the members were unable to agree on standards of proof > and they have never published their sources for what had been submitted. I would like to know why they say he is buried in Stª Catarina, when he died in Calheta. In fact there are many Lombadas in Calheta, it's Lombada-land, indeed. His Lombada could easily be one of those. Now, what we know is: From title BERENGUER, Nobiliary of HHN: "Fez Rodrigo Annes testamento em Julho de 1505, e n’elle se diz criado d’o Infante D. Henrique que Deus haja, e se manda sepultar n’a sua Egreja de Sta. Catharina que elle fez n’a Lombada onde morava." Now, we know from here that it's his Will, not necessarly his death, which dates from July 1505. Now, from some extremely valuable, direct source data: The properties of Rodrigo Anes da Lombada were shared among his heirs in 10 Sep 1511 in CALHETA, this according to a transcription made by Dr. Luís de Mello (from his particular collection). His daughter Isabel Rodrigues de Andrade seems to have been made Morgada, and inherited his properties. As you know, she married Pedro Berenguer de Leminhana, a foreigner from Catalunha. They lived at the place which is still know as Lombo do Doutor, one of Calheta's many Lombadas. What we gather from all this is that, most probably, this misterious Lombada of Rodrigo Anes is what is known today as Lombo do Doutor (from Dr. Pedro de Leminhana), and has nothing to do with Santa Cruz. The mentioned Chapel of Santa Catarina must have disappeared long ago, and has no relation with the other in Santa Cruz, which certainly caused the confusion, even if it's on a small valley, and not on any Lombada at all (it's located precisely where the TAP flight crashed back in 1977). As for Rodrigo Anes, his death can be placed between 1505 and 1511, more close to the later. Hope this helps. Paulo -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 22:45:07 +0100, Scot Austin <scotaustin@comcast.net> wrote: > Paulo Gomes Jardim wrote: >> On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 23:25:17 +0100, Scot Austin <scotaustin@comcast.net> >> wrote: >> >> [..] >> >>> I have started a rudimentary database from historical sources of >>> Madeiran colonists prior to the keeping of patish records hoping to >>> someday bridge the gap to documented Madeirans. In it I show two >>> daughters of John Drummond and Branca Affonco with the name Annes they >>> are Caterina Annes and Izabel Annes Escorcio both born in Santa Cruz >>> about the 1440's. Izabel married Joao Leira. Perhaps Branca was related >>> to the Annes family. >>> >> >> Not at all. In this case, they are called Anes because her father was >> João, the famous João da Escócia, or John Drummond. >> > Thanks, I did not realize Anes was a patronymic as it bears little > resemblance to João. Perhaps John Drummond was called Ian in Scotland? It has little ressemblance to the modern form João, but if you think about the medieval, latinized YOHANNES, the similarity would become evident. The Spanish have the Ibañez, which has also precisely the same origin. > I have long been interested in the notion that his grandfather, Prince > Henry Sinclair acquired navigational information on his reputed 1398 Why do you name him Prince? I only have him as Count of Orkney. Can you tell me as well more about that voyage, and the source for it? I have yet to dedicate some time to the research of this part of the family. :-\ > voyage to Nova Scotia that may have been passed on from John's son, João > Escorcio to Cristao Colon. This voyage, the Zeno map and Columbus' > nationality are the subject of much dispute and controversy. But is > fascinating. Eheh - Yes, it's curious, but I don't find it to be much probable. João da Escócia seems to have settled here as a quiet farmer, I don't recall his family to be much involved in navigation affairs. The guys living here traveling to the New World seem to have been rather from the poor or middle class (Escudeiros), guys who managed to find a patron, and there they went, to live an adventurous life at the ocean. It is said that the existance of the New World was common knowledge in Funchal's taverns at the 15th century, and indeed more than one expedition is documented to have been arranged to explore those lands. It's easy to presume that young Cristovão (at the time an obscure sugar merchant, and not very honest at that) stumbled across one of those conversations, managed to gather some drafts and rudimentary maps from the Funchal seaman, and was smart enough to take profit from this. In fact, there's not any need from Bartolomeu Perestrelo presumed navigation charters, or those ones from the Sinclairs. All you need is some coups of wine and a drunked seaman, the rest will come naturally. ;) >>> Also I have a Rodrigo Annes of Santa Cruz father of Izabel Rodrigues >>> Andrada b abt 1488 both died in Calheta. Izabel married Pedro Berenguer >>> Leminhana of Calheta. >>> >> >> Known as Rodrigo Anes da Lombada, dead before 1511, I have him placed in >> Calheta, where his possessions were located, not Santa Cruz. >> Why do you say he's from Santa Cruz? >> > He is shown in the ancestral file with the following information: > > Birth: Abt 1462 > Of Lombada, S.cruz, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal > Death: Jul 1505 > Calheta, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal > Burial: > S.catarina, Lmbda, S.cruz, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal > > Normally I wouldn't put credence in this source, but in this case it was > submitted by the LDS medieval families committee which was meant to > validate from primary sources all information for inclusion, prior to a > certain date, 1600 or so. However, the committee was eventually > dissolved because the members were unable to agree on standards of proof > and they have never published their sources for what had been submitted. I would like to know why they say he is buried in Stª Catarina, when he died in Calheta. In fact there are many Lombadas in Calheta, it's Lombada-land, indeed. His Lombada could easily be one of those. Now, what we know is: From title BERENGUER, Nobiliary of HHN: "Fez Rodrigo Annes testamento em Julho de 1505, e n’elle se diz criado d’o Infante D. Henrique que Deus haja, e se manda sepultar n’a sua Egreja de Sta. Catharina que elle fez n’a Lombada onde morava." Now, we know from here that it's his Will, not necessarly his death, which dates from July 1505. Now, from some extremely valuable, direct source data: The properties of Rodrigo Anes da Lombada were shared among his heirs in 10 Sep 1511 in CALHETA, this according to a transcription made by Dr. Luís de Mello (from his particular collection). His daughter Isabel Rodrigues de Andrade seems to have been made Morgada, and inherited his properties. As you know, she married Pedro Berenguer de Leminhana, a foreigner from Catalunha. They lived at the place which is still know as Lombo do Doutor, one of Calheta's many Lombadas. What we gather from all this is that, most probably, this misterious Lombada of Rodrigo Anes is what is known today as Lombo do Doutor (from Dr. Pedro de Leminhana), and has nothing to do with Santa Cruz. The mentioned Chapel of Santa Catarina must have disappeared long ago, and has no relation with the other in Santa Cruz, which certainly caused the confusion, even if it's on a small valley, and not on any Lombada at all (it's located precisely where the TAP flight crashed back in 1977). As for Rodrigo Anes, his death can be placed between 1505 and 1511, more close to the later. Hope this helps. Paulo -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 15:18:53 +0100, <Gregobhte1@aol.com> wrote: > Hi paulo.... > that's a great mistery about this lady. "mine" Catarina Vaz (my 11th > great-grandmother) is the daughter of Fernao Anes and Ines Afonso (dont > have their > ancestors to trace back...do you have it??). She married Sebastiao de > Abreu. > That info is 100% correct because is listed on their son's wedding > cerificate > of Domingos de Abreu and Maria Goncalves on 4 feb 1619 in Ribeira > Brava. So i > have no idea how to solve that, but at same can see that Catarina Vaz > had > another son called Joao Homem....so maybe she is descendant of the > Homem family > as you said.... > any more info to add??? what do you think??/ Well, I believe it is certain that either Sebastião de Abreu or Catarina Vaz belonged to the Homem family, most striking evidence is their son Pde. Pedro Homem and the João Homem you referred. I don't find to be that probable, however, that she was the daughter of Fernão d' Anes and Inês Afonso. I don't know any evidece for this, quite the opposite. As for the ascendance the Nobiliaries attribute to Fernão d' Anes, it's Pedro Afonso, Knight (s. of Gaspar ÁLvares and Grimanesa pires), and Leonor Homem d' El Rei (d. of João Homem, Knight, and Aldonça Lopes, this one d. of Afonso Pires and Inês Anes). These are the ancestors of the Homem d' El Rei family, but I have my doubts its related to the Ribeira Brava Homens. There seems to be great confusion and mixing on all this people. The Macedos, which appear togheter with the Ribeira Brava Abreus, are also a mistery. I suspect there's some connection with the Azores, especially with the MACEDO, and the COLUMBREIRO, which also appear in Ribeira Brava, and possibly this HOMEM family. Perhaps it's there where is our missing link. Paulo -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:01:20 +0100, <Gregobhte1@aol.com> wrote: [..] > Hi Paulo.... > You are absolutely right about the names. Is Isabel and she has a > daughter > Helena. YES!! the confusion is between sources coming from Peter Clode > and the > author of the book Familias da Gaula. I also have the book "Familias de Gaula", the last 2005 corrected edition. I must say it is a monumental effort and a most invaluable book to have for anyone interested in Madeira Genealogies. It's available for sell in Junta de Freguesia de Gaula, people aboard interested to acquire it may probably write to them and ask for an exemplar. I must also say that from my experience this book is ridden with errors, either on dates of marriage, on ascendancy of married couples, and on many assumptions made there, such as congregating all the Afonsos, Gonçalves, Rodrigues, Jorges, etc. all in one family, when they are patronimics, and thus often unrelated between themselves. It's quite good for using as a guide, but you must always confirm the data against original records. The quality of the data improves as we reach modern times, and most living people from Gaula can easily find their way up from there. It's unfortunate, however, that a name index is not included, and the method of classification (surnames, as opposed to lineages) is not the ideal, in my opinion. The author, José Lourenço de Gouveia e Freitas, has the immense credit of dedicating the same effort to popular lineages as to more aristochratic ones, and took great care to include many expatriate families now living abroad in USA, Venezuela, South Africa, Jersey, etc.. I highly recommend as well "Gaula: a Terra e a Gente", which should act as a complement for the former one, or vice-versa. I find this book to be more accurate historically than the genealogical study. Paulo -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 13:58:47 +0100, <Gregobhte1@aol.com> wrote: > In a message dated 01/07/2007 18:20:37 GMT Daylight Time, > darwin@spamcop.net > writes: > > Now tell me, how do you traced Joana Dias de Vares to John Drummond? > If that's the who married Francisco de Góis Cardoso, she appears to be > the > daughter of António Dias, a barrel crafter from Guimaraes (Portugal > mainland), and Maria de Vares, from Funchal, married in 1550 at Sé. > I don't know of any relation of them with the Drummonds. > > > Hi Paulo.... > Got this info thru the book "Familias da Gaula" and and also because my > 12th > great-grandfather used the surname Drummond around 1680's and i had no > idea > that i was related to this family. Hi Greg, Who was this g-g-father from? Possibly it would provide a more concrete link to the Drummonds. I find curious that you have a 12th g-g-father living at 1680, as I'm only 33 y.o. and it's my 9th g-g-parents who I find at that time. It is possible, however, if your ancestors married quite young. The earliest certain link to the Drummonds I have is D. Margarida Escórcio Drummond, 8th g-g-mother, lived in Porto Santo in late 17th century where she married Francisco de Sousa Jardim, from Calheta, in 1696. This lady was daughter of Baltazar de Mendonça Furtado and D. Isabel de Castro, also known as Isabel de Flores, a couple that disappears with no trace into the fog of time, despite all my efforts to trace them back. > Joana is daughter of ALEIXO (not antonio) Correct, my mistake. He is still a barrel crafter from Guimarães, according to the Sé marriage book, which I've checked. This, of course, assumming Maria de Vares is the Maria Fernandes which appear on the Marriage record. > dias and Maria Vares and this Maria vares is Diogo Goncalves that is the > son > of pedro goncalves ferreira that is the son of catarina anes drummond > that is > the daughter of the scottish john drummond. Hmmm. I've no evidence to the existance of this "missing link", Diogo Gonçalves, as son of the couple Pedro Gonçalves Ferreira and Catarina de Vares Pereira, much less as father of this Maria de Vares, which doesn't seem to be exactly from the upper classes, as is proposed by her given ascendancy. Moreover, the name Vares was already dispersed at the time, so, even if she is related to that Catarina de Vares Pereira, it may be from a parent on her side, and not exactly on her descendancy. Note as well that no Ferreira, Escórcio and Drummond surname appears on her descendancy, which seems to me to be highly suspect, as those were all surnames more powerful than Vares at the time. About the Vares surname: Earliest reference I know of is Antão Gonçalves de Vares, documented in 1501 as Homem Bom da Câmara do Funchal. The Maria de Vares which allegedly married Aleixo Dias is certainly related to the couple Roque Gomes and Branca de Vares Pereira, which lived in Santa Cruz in middle 16th century. She can't be, however, their daughter, as this couple already had a documented D. Maria de Vares, which married the Morgado Nuno da Costa Moniz in late 16th century. Possible hints to the origins of this family came from the properties inherited by Branca de Vares, daughter of Roque and Branca: - Large Sugar Cane farmland in Santa Luzia, Funchal, extremely valuable, above Stª Luzia Church, at the time a chapel. This property was later on stolen by the merchant Branco family, which gave way to an extensive judicial proccess. - Houses in Rua Direita, Funchal - Farmland in Torrinha, Funchal The above properties point to an urban origin of part of the family, I would bet it's the Vares. - Vineyards in Ribeira da Boaventura, Stª Cruz - Mannor with farmland and other properties in Santa Cruz, seem to have came by way of her father Roque Gomes Owned a white slave named Antónia Alvarenga. This hints to an unknown connection to the Stª Cruz Alvarenga family, as slaves usually beared the names of their present or former owners. Hope this may help, Paulo -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

Hello Paulo: I have been enjoying this discourse though none of these people appear to be related to me. I am most interested in obtaining a copy of the revised Familias de Gaula. Could you please provide contact information for the "Junta de Freguesia de Gaula"? Thank you Mary da Silva Frost -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paulo Gomes Jardim Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 6:39 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Isabel de Gois On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:01:20 +0100, <Gregobhte1@aol.com> wrote: [..] > Hi Paulo.... > You are absolutely right about the names. Is Isabel and she has a > daughter > Helena. YES!! the confusion is between sources coming from Peter Clode > and the > author of the book Familias da Gaula. I also have the book "Familias de Gaula", the last 2005 corrected edition. I must say it is a monumental effort and a most invaluable book to have for anyone interested in Madeira Genealogies. It's available for sell in Junta de Freguesia de Gaula, people aboard interested to acquire it may probably write to them and ask for an exemplar. I must also say that from my experience this book is ridden with errors, either on dates of marriage, on ascendancy of married couples, and on many assumptions made there, such as congregating all the Afonsos, Gonçalves, Rodrigues, Jorges, etc. all in one family, when they are patronimics, and thus often unrelated between themselves. It's quite good for using as a guide, but you must always confirm the data against original records. The quality of the data improves as we reach modern times, and most living people from Gaula can easily find their way up from there. It's unfortunate, however, that a name index is not included, and the method of classification (surnames, as opposed to lineages) is not the ideal, in my opinion. The author, José Lourenço de Gouveia e Freitas, has the immense credit of dedicating the same effort to popular lineages as to more aristochratic ones, and took great care to include many expatriate families now living abroad in USA, Venezuela, South Africa, Jersey, etc.. I highly recommend as well "Gaula: a Terra e a Gente", which should act as a complement for the former one, or vice-versa. I find this book to be more accurate historically than the genealogical study. Paulo -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Paulo: Pardon my asking but I'm in the USA and don't understand what you mean when you say and use the word, "patronimics". Can you explain? Thanks, Ronnie French (decendent of Jose do Espirito Santo and Virginia Augusta de Freitas Lopes). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paulo Gomes Jardim" <darwin@spamcop.net> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Isabel de Gois On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:01:20 +0100, <Gregobhte1@aol.com> wrote: [..] > Hi Paulo.... > You are absolutely right about the names. Is Isabel and she has a > daughter > Helena. YES!! the confusion is between sources coming from Peter Clode > and the > author of the book Familias da Gaula. I also have the book "Familias de Gaula", the last 2005 corrected edition. I must say it is a monumental effort and a most invaluable book to have for anyone interested in Madeira Genealogies. It's available for sell in Junta de Freguesia de Gaula, people aboard interested to acquire it may probably write to them and ask for an exemplar. I must also say that from my experience this book is ridden with errors, either on dates of marriage, on ascendancy of married couples, and on many assumptions made there, such as congregating all the Afonsos, Gonçalves, Rodrigues, Jorges, etc. all in one family, when they are patronimics, and thus often unrelated between themselves. It's quite good for using as a guide, but you must always confirm the data against original records. The quality of the data improves as we reach modern times, and most living people from Gaula can easily find their way up from there. It's unfortunate, however, that a name index is not included, and the method of classification (surnames, as opposed to lineages) is not the ideal, in my opinion. The author, José Lourenço de Gouveia e Freitas, has the immense credit of dedicating the same effort to popular lineages as to more aristochratic ones, and took great care to include many expatriate families now living abroad in USA, Venezuela, South Africa, Jersey, etc.. I highly recommend as well "Gaula: a Terra e a Gente", which should act as a complement for the former one, or vice-versa. I find this book to be more accurate historically than the genealogical study. Paulo -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I think you may be right about the parents of Catarina vaz. But her son is called Domingos de Abreu macedo and another is called Joao Homem.... so there we have to prove the names of Abreu, Macedo and Homem all together in the family. what do you think? Leandro

Paulo Gomes Jardim wrote: > On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 23:25:17 +0100, Scot Austin <scotaustin@comcast.net> > wrote: > > [..] > >> I have started a rudimentary database from historical sources of >> Madeiran colonists prior to the keeping of patish records hoping to >> someday bridge the gap to documented Madeirans. In it I show two >> daughters of John Drummond and Branca Affonco with the name Annes they >> are Caterina Annes and Izabel Annes Escorcio both born in Santa Cruz >> about the 1440's. Izabel married Joao Leira. Perhaps Branca was related >> to the Annes family. >> > > Not at all. In this case, they are called Anes because her father was > João, the famous João da Escócia, or John Drummond. > Thanks, I did not realize Anes was a patronymic as it bears little resemblance to João. Perhaps John Drummond was called Ian in Scotland? I have long been interested in the notion that his grandfather, Prince Henry Sinclair acquired navigational information on his reputed 1398 voyage to Nova Scotia that may have been passed on from John's son, João Escorcio to Cristao Colon. This voyage, the Zeno map and Columbus' nationality are the subject of much dispute and controversy. But is fascinating. > >> Also I have a Rodrigo Annes of Santa Cruz father of Izabel Rodrigues >> Andrada b abt 1488 both died in Calheta. Izabel married Pedro Berenguer >> Leminhana of Calheta. >> > > Known as Rodrigo Anes da Lombada, dead before 1511, I have him placed in > Calheta, where his possessions were located, not Santa Cruz. > Why do you say he's from Santa Cruz? > He is shown in the ancestral file with the following information: Birth: Abt 1462 Of Lombada, S.cruz, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal Death: Jul 1505 Calheta, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal Burial: S.catarina, Lmbda, S.cruz, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal Normally I wouldn't put credence in this source, but in this case it was submitted by the LDS medieval families committee which was meant to validate from primary sources all information for inclusion, prior to a certain date, 1600 or so. However, the committee was eventually dissolved because the members were unable to agree on standards of proof and they have never published their sources for what had been submitted. > >> Also a Pedro Eannes married Izabel Goncalves dau. of Goncalo Airies >> Ferreira abt 1460 >> > > This would be Pedro Anes, Contador dos Contos, certainly not born in > Madeira. Passed the family job (Contador dos Contos) to the CANTO family, > by the marriage of his daughter. > > None of those are probably even slightly related to the Ribeira Brava > farmer Fernão d'Anes. > >

Hi paulo.... that's a great mistery about this lady. "mine" Catarina Vaz (my 11th great-grandmother) is the daughter of Fernao Anes and Ines Afonso (dont have their ancestors to trace back...do you have it??). She married Sebastiao de Abreu. That info is 100% correct because is listed on their son's wedding cerificate of Domingos de Abreu and Maria Goncalves on 4 feb 1619 in Ribeira Brava. So i have no idea how to solve that, but at same can see that Catarina Vaz had another son called Joao Homem....so maybe she is descendant of the Homem family as you said.... any more info to add??? what do you think??/ Leandro

In a message dated 01/07/2007 18:23:36 GMT Daylight Time, darwin@spamcop.net writes: I have one question for Leandro- I show the mother of Antonio Teixeira > Cardosa as Isabel de Gois (not Ilena,nor do I have a daughter Ilena)-not > sure if I got it from HHN or Nobiliario da Ilha da Madeira, Portugal, It's probably Isabel. There seems to have been a daughter Helena indeed, who maried Mem de Ornelas e Vasconcelos. Hi Paulo.... You are absolutely right about the names. Is Isabel and she has a daughter Helena. YES!! the confusion is between sources coming from Peter Clode and the author of the book Familias da Gaula. Leandro

In a message dated 01/07/2007 18:20:37 GMT Daylight Time, darwin@spamcop.net writes: Now tell me, how do you traced Joana Dias de Vares to John Drummond? If that's the who married Francisco de Góis Cardoso, she appears to be the daughter of António Dias, a barrel crafter from Guimaraes (Portugal mainland), and Maria de Vares, from Funchal, married in 1550 at Sé. I don't know of any relation of them with the Drummonds. Hi Paulo.... Got this info thru the book "Familias da Gaula" and and also because my 12th great-grandfather used the surname Drummond around 1680's and i had no idea that i was related to this family. Joana is daughter of ALEIXO (not antonio) dias and Maria Vares and this Maria vares is Diogo Goncalves that is the son of pedro goncalves ferreira that is the son of catarina anes drummond that is the daughter of the scottish john drummond. Leandro

On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 23:51:43 +0100, <Gregobhte1@aol.com> wrote: > the book of FAMILIAS DA MADEIRA E PORTO SANTO by Conego Vaz de Meneses It's riddled with errors, take care when reading it. Always try to find the original source, which unfortunately he never tells. Peter Clode has provided some useful notes on this work, which are more reliable and may led to more certain conclusions. -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 23:36:17 +0100, <Gregobhte1@aol.com> wrote: > Hi Scott.... > that's great information..thank you. But the challenge is that when i > access > the web of ARM to look the marriage of Fernao Anes and Ines Afonso, > theres > nothing there so it makes imposible to find Fernao parents. they are from > Ribeira Brava and thei daugther Catarina Vaz married in 1570. How do you know about this marriage? As far as I know no record of it exists. -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 23:25:17 +0100, Scot Austin <scotaustin@comcast.net> wrote: [..] > I have started a rudimentary database from historical sources of > Madeiran colonists prior to the keeping of patish records hoping to > someday bridge the gap to documented Madeirans. In it I show two > daughters of John Drummond and Branca Affonco with the name Annes they > are Caterina Annes and Izabel Annes Escorcio both born in Santa Cruz > about the 1440's. Izabel married Joao Leira. Perhaps Branca was related > to the Annes family. Not at all. In this case, they are called Anes because her father was João, the famous João da Escócia, or John Drummond. > Also I have a Rodrigo Annes of Santa Cruz father of Izabel Rodrigues > Andrada b abt 1488 both died in Calheta. Izabel married Pedro Berenguer > Leminhana of Calheta. Known as Rodrigo Anes da Lombada, dead before 1511, I have him placed in Calheta, where his possessions were located, not Santa Cruz. Why do you say he's from Santa Cruz? > Also a Pedro Eannes married Izabel Goncalves dau. of Goncalo Airies > Ferreira abt 1460 This would be Pedro Anes, Contador dos Contos, certainly not born in Madeira. Passed the family job (Contador dos Contos) to the CANTO family, by the marriage of his daughter. None of those are probably even slightly related to the Ribeira Brava farmer Fernão d'Anes. -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 19:25:48 +0100, Fernandes, Jose <jose.fernandes@yrdsb.edu.on.ca> wrote: > There is an old story (?) that claims that the first children born in > Madeira were named Adam and Eve. Their father was Gonçalo Eanes or Anes > or Enes. He had lands in what is today's São Gonçalo on the east side of > Funchal. > In the early 16th century there were Anes in Caniço which is not too far > from this place. As far as I know, the story of Adão and Eva is real, and documental evidence exists of the name Adão persisting, even as patronimic, throught Gonçalo Aires (not Anes) descendancy. As for Gonçalo Aires, full name is Gonçalo Aires Ferreira, and was Zarco's right hand man. Possibly the only settler of the first bunch with some nobility, but no one knows who was his wife/mistress. -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio