On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 22:23:02 +0100, Paulo Gomes Jardim <darwin@spamcop.net> wrote: [..] > Álvaro -> Álvares/Alves > Afonso -> Afonso > André -> André > António -> Antunes > Berenguer-> Berenguer > Bernardo-> Bernardes > Brás -> Brás > Diogo -> Dias > Domingo -> Domingues > Fernando/Fernão -> Fernandes > Francisco-> Francisco > Garcia -> Garcês/Garcia > Gil -> Gil > Gomes -> Gomes > Gonçalo -> Gonçalves > Henrique -> Henriques > João -> Anes/Eanes > Jorge -> Jorge > Lucas -> Lucas > Luís -> Luís > Lopo -> Lopes > Lourenço-> Lourenço > Manuel -> Manuel > Marcos -> Marques > Martim -> Martins > Miguel -> Miguel > Munio -> Moniz/Munhoz > Nuno -> Nunes > Paulo -> Paulos/Paulus/Pallos > Pedro -> Pires > Rodrigo/ Rui -> Rodrigues/Ruiz/Roiz > Sancho -> Sanches > Simão -> Simões > Soeiro -> Soares > Telo -> Teles/Telo > Vasco -> Vaz/Vasques > Ximeno/Jimeno -> Ximenes/Jimenes > Zargo -> Zargo More additions to the list: Abu-Nazir -> Alboazar (Mozarabe) Acciaiuolly -> Acciaiuolly (Italian) Aires/Arias -> Aires Aloito/Alvito -> Aloites/Alvites Ansur -> Ansures Arualdo -> Arualdes Aznar -> Aznares Bermudo/Vermudo -> Bermudes/Vermudes César -> César (Italian) Egas -> Viegas/Venegas Ermígio -> -> Ermiges Ero -> Eriz Fromarico -> Fromariques/Fromarigues Fafila -> Favila/Fafes Galindo -> Galindes Gaton -> Gatones Giraldo -> Giraldes Godinho -> Godins Hermenegildo -> Mendes Gondesendo -> Gondesindes Lovesendo -> Lovesendes Lucidio -> Lucides Mem/Mendo -> Mendes Ordonho -> Ordonhes Osório -> Osores/Osório Oveco -> Oveques Ponce/Pôncio -> Ponce/Ponces Paio/Pelaio -> Pais Salvador -> Salvadores/Salvador Sarracino -> Sarracines Tortosedo -> Tortosendes Trastamiro -> Trastamires All of the examples presented are factual, but some of them you will hardly find outside Medieval times. -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

I noticed Paulo's reference to the Azores, and that some people passed through Madeira before settling in the Azores. This was true of the Colombreiro's for certain, who and there are Moura's in Santa Maria and Sao Miguel. In any event it occurred to me that I could try asking about my Brandao - Escocia ancestors from Sao Miguel. Does anyone know if the following is correct:, or of any connections from Madeira to Sao Miguel regarding the Escorcia line? I think I may be missing a generation, or it is simply wrong. JR Descendants of Francisco Afonso das Cortes Generation No. 1 1. FRANCISCO AFONSO DAS1 CORTES He married CATARINA ESCORCIO, daughter of JOAO DRUMMOND OU ESCOSCIO and BRANCA AFONSO. Child of FRANCISCO CORTES and CATARINA ESCORCIO is: 2. i. ANA2 ESCORCIO. Generation No. 2 2. ANA2 ESCORCIO She married DIOGO DIAS BRANDAO Child of ANA ESCORCIO and DIOGO BRAND©ÐO is: 3. i. MONICA DIAS3 BRANDAO, b. resident of Nordeste- Sao Jorge. Generation No. 3 3. MONICA DIAS3 BRANDAO was born in resident of Nordeste- Sao Jorge. She married ANTONIO AFONSO CAVALEIRO DE SANTIAGO Abt. 1540 in Nordeste- Sao Jorge, son of JOAO AFONSO and ISABEL BRANDAO. He was resident of Nordeste- (Sao Jorge igreja), Sao Miguel Notes for ANTONIO AFONSO CAVALEIRO DE SANTIAGO: Cavaleiro de Santiago, cited by Frutuoso in book four, chapter 36, item15, and chapter 14 , item 15 Child of MONICA BRANDAO and ANTONIO AFONSO is: i. BEATRIZ4 BRANDAO, b. residents of Lomba de Sao Pedro, Nordeste; m. GASPAR DE TEVE DE MESAS, Abt. 1575, Nordeste- Sao Jorge; b. residents of Lomba de Sao Pedro, Nordeste. Notes for GASPAR DE TEVE DE MESAS: Gaspar de Teves Mesa was born in Lomba de Sao Pedro, Nordeste, Sao Miguel, A©'ores. He married Beatriz Brandoa.

Thank you, Paulo and Luis. JR ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paulo Gomes Jardim" <darwin@spamcop.net> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Table of abbreviations > On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 14:00:36 +0100, John Roias <jroias@rogers.com> wrote: > >> Paulo and Luis, would you mind if I posted your commentaries on names, >> abbreviations and patronymics on the Azores List? Many people would find >> this very useful and interesting, as we also have a lot of new people. > > Not at all, please, be my guest. > > > -- > " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- > Horacio > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

John Of course not. Go ahead. (Paulo's posts are much more helpful and complete than mine) Luis Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Paulo and Luis, would you mind if I posted your commentaries on names, abbreviations and patronymics on the Azores List? Many people would find this very useful and interesting, as we also have a lot of new people. John Roias ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/

Thanks, Paulo Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paulo Gomes Jardim" <darwin+lists@spamcop.net> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 2:46 PM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Table of abbreviations Hello, In order to help the people on this list deciphering the Portuguese church records, as I've often seen questions on this matter being made, I've compiled a small table of abbreviations you'll find on those books, along with what they mean. ^ is the convention I'll use when the letters are written above the line. Alvz -> Alves/Álvares Alvº -> Álvaro Aº -> Afonso Antº -> António Antª -> Antónia Catª -> Catarina Diz -> Dias Dº -> Diogo D^os -> Domingos F^co -> Francisco Figª -> Figueira Fª -> Ferreira Frz -> Fernandes Glz -> Gonçalves Gª -> Gouveia Gº -> Gonçalo H^e -> Henrique H^es -> Henriques Jº -> João Jª -> Joana M^el -> Manuel Miz -> Martins Mª -> Maria M^ça -> Mendonça Nº -> Nuno Pª -> Pereira Pº -> Pedro Piz -> Pires Rº -> Rodrigo Roiz -> Rodrigues Sª -> Silva Txª -> Teixeira Vcellos -> Vasconcelos Xº -> Cristóvão Yº -> João I'll appreciate any correction/addition you could do to this list, so that people investigating their lines, especially newbies, could use it as an useful reference. Best regards, Paulo -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Paulo and Luis, would you mind if I posted your commentaries on names, abbreviations and patronymics on the Azores List? Many people would find this very useful and interesting, as we also have a lot of new people. John Roias

Thanks Paulo. This is very helpful. Janette -----Original Message----- From: prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:prt-madeira-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paulo Gomes Jardim Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 2:47 PM To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Table of abbreviations Hello, In order to help the people on this list deciphering the Portuguese church records, as I've often seen questions on this matter being made, I've compiled a small table of abbreviations you'll find on those books, along with what they mean. ^ is the convention I'll use when the letters are written above the line. Alvz -> Alves/Álvares Alvº -> Álvaro Aº -> Afonso Antº -> António Antª -> Antónia Catª -> Catarina Diz -> Dias Dº -> Diogo D^os -> Domingos F^co -> Francisco Figª -> Figueira Fª -> Ferreira Frz -> Fernandes Glz -> Gonçalves Gª -> Gouveia Gº -> Gonçalo H^e -> Henrique H^es -> Henriques Jº -> João Jª -> Joana M^el -> Manuel Miz -> Martins Mª -> Maria M^ça -> Mendonça Nº -> Nuno Pª -> Pereira Pº -> Pedro Piz -> Pires Rº -> Rodrigo Roiz -> Rodrigues Sª -> Silva Txª -> Teixeira Vcellos -> Vasconcelos Xº -> Cristóvão Yº -> João I'll appreciate any correction/addition you could do to this list, so that people investigating their lines, especially newbies, could use it as an useful reference. Best regards, Paulo -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks, the site was very interesting and informative. I've learned a lot today. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paulo Gomes Jardim" <darwin@spamcop.net> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 2:23 PM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Patronymics (Was: Isabel de Gois) On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 03:04:41 +0100, Ronnie French <rmfrench@charter.net> wrote: > Paulo: > Pardon my asking but I'm in the USA and don't understand what you mean > when > you say and use the word, "patronimics". Can you explain? As it seems, before Medieval times, people often used just one name, the given name. Then, as the need to distinguish between different individuals arose, people were identified by being son of this, or son of that. For the effect a latin declination of the father's name was used, which is the patronymic. So, Petrus son of Pelayo became Petrus Pelayes, Munio son of Gundisalvo became Munio Gundisalves. As the Latin became increasingly more and more popular, it got corrupted, thus Pelayo turned into Paio, Gundisalvo into Gonçalo, etc.. The patronymics evolved as well, so, for instance: Gundisalves -> Gonçalves Roderiques -> Rodrigues Diegues -> Dias Ferdinandes -> Fernandes and so on. Some like Gomes, Nunes, Ximenes and Munoz remained almost the same. For better clarification, I'll compile a small table of some patronymics you may easily find, and the name they are derived from. Álvaro -> Álvares/Alves Afonso -> Afonso André -> André António -> Antunes Berenguer-> Berenguer Bernardo-> Bernardes Brás -> Brás Diogo -> Dias Domingo -> Domingues Fernando/Fernão -> Fernandes Francisco-> Francisco Garcia -> Garcês/Garcia Gil -> Gil Gomes -> Gomes Gonçalo -> Gonçalves Henrique -> Henriques João -> Anes/Eanes Jorge -> Jorge Lucas -> Lucas Luís -> Luís Lopo -> Lopes Lourenço-> Lourenço Manuel -> Manuel Marcos -> Marques Martim -> Martins Miguel -> Miguel Munio -> Moniz/Munhoz Nuno -> Nunes Paulo -> Paulos/Paulus/Pallos Pedro -> Pires Rodrigo/ Rui -> Rodrigues/Ruiz/Roiz Sancho -> Sanches Simão -> Simões Soeiro -> Soares Telo -> Teles/Telo Vasco -> Vaz/Vasques Ximeno/Jimeno -> Ximenes/Jimenes Zargo -> Zargo All the names listed above are not true surnames, but rather patronymics, as they are derived from one certain ancestor given name. Sometimes you may even find who he was. I have found many, as this was in use even in the 17th century, and in some extraordinary cases, the custom persisted until recently, especially in the countryside. Even a quick look on the Madeira marriages database will tell that the great majority of the surnames listed there are patronymics. In this case you can hardly use them to trace back a family, as 2 totally unrelated Gonçalos may give way to 2 lineages of Gonçalves. In some cases when the given name is quite uncommon, or has totaly fallen out from use, such as Moniz and Berenguer, you may use them to trace back your family with more certainity. Patronymics in Anglo-Saxonic language are often quite obvious, as is the case of Johnson (John-SON) and Harrison (Harry-SON). The Russians use the Vich, as in Andre-vich. The Ucranians use the witz, as in Horo-witz. The people from Scandinavia use Erik-SON. Italians use the "DI", as in D. Juan DI Marco, or the libertine Cha-cha DI Guiuseppe from the Grease movie. In every case, it means the act of possession from the father to the son. I recommend you to read as well the excellent wikipedia article on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronymic I hope this has helped to clarify this subject. Best regards, Paulo > Thanks, Ronnie French (decendent of Jose do Espirito Santo and Virginia > Augusta de Freitas Lopes). -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello, In order to help the people on this list deciphering the Portuguese church records, as I've often seen questions on this matter being made, I've compiled a small table of abbreviations you'll find on those books, along with what they mean. ^ is the convention I'll use when the letters are written above the line. Alvz -> Alves/Álvares Alvº -> Álvaro Aº -> Afonso Antº -> António Antª -> Antónia Catª -> Catarina Diz -> Dias Dº -> Diogo D^os -> Domingos F^co -> Francisco Figª -> Figueira Fª -> Ferreira Frz -> Fernandes Glz -> Gonçalves Gª -> Gouveia Gº -> Gonçalo H^e -> Henrique H^es -> Henriques Jº -> João Jª -> Joana M^el -> Manuel Miz -> Martins Mª -> Maria M^ça -> Mendonça Nº -> Nuno Pª -> Pereira Pº -> Pedro Piz -> Pires Rº -> Rodrigo Roiz -> Rodrigues Sª -> Silva Txª -> Teixeira Vcellos -> Vasconcelos Xº -> Cristóvão Yº -> João I'll appreciate any correction/addition you could do to this list, so that people investigating their lines, especially newbies, could use it as an useful reference. Best regards, Paulo -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 03:04:41 +0100, Ronnie French <rmfrench@charter.net> wrote: > Paulo: > Pardon my asking but I'm in the USA and don't understand what you mean > when > you say and use the word, "patronimics". Can you explain? As it seems, before Medieval times, people often used just one name, the given name. Then, as the need to distinguish between different individuals arose, people were identified by being son of this, or son of that. For the effect a latin declination of the father's name was used, which is the patronymic. So, Petrus son of Pelayo became Petrus Pelayes, Munio son of Gundisalvo became Munio Gundisalves. As the Latin became increasingly more and more popular, it got corrupted, thus Pelayo turned into Paio, Gundisalvo into Gonçalo, etc.. The patronymics evolved as well, so, for instance: Gundisalves -> Gonçalves Roderiques -> Rodrigues Diegues -> Dias Ferdinandes -> Fernandes and so on. Some like Gomes, Nunes, Ximenes and Munoz remained almost the same. For better clarification, I'll compile a small table of some patronymics you may easily find, and the name they are derived from. Álvaro -> Álvares/Alves Afonso -> Afonso André -> André António -> Antunes Berenguer-> Berenguer Bernardo-> Bernardes Brás -> Brás Diogo -> Dias Domingo -> Domingues Fernando/Fernão -> Fernandes Francisco-> Francisco Garcia -> Garcês/Garcia Gil -> Gil Gomes -> Gomes Gonçalo -> Gonçalves Henrique -> Henriques João -> Anes/Eanes Jorge -> Jorge Lucas -> Lucas Luís -> Luís Lopo -> Lopes Lourenço-> Lourenço Manuel -> Manuel Marcos -> Marques Martim -> Martins Miguel -> Miguel Munio -> Moniz/Munhoz Nuno -> Nunes Paulo -> Paulos/Paulus/Pallos Pedro -> Pires Rodrigo/ Rui -> Rodrigues/Ruiz/Roiz Sancho -> Sanches Simão -> Simões Soeiro -> Soares Telo -> Teles/Telo Vasco -> Vaz/Vasques Ximeno/Jimeno -> Ximenes/Jimenes Zargo -> Zargo All the names listed above are not true surnames, but rather patronymics, as they are derived from one certain ancestor given name. Sometimes you may even find who he was. I have found many, as this was in use even in the 17th century, and in some extraordinary cases, the custom persisted until recently, especially in the countryside. Even a quick look on the Madeira marriages database will tell that the great majority of the surnames listed there are patronymics. In this case you can hardly use them to trace back a family, as 2 totally unrelated Gonçalos may give way to 2 lineages of Gonçalves. In some cases when the given name is quite uncommon, or has totaly fallen out from use, such as Moniz and Berenguer, you may use them to trace back your family with more certainity. Patronymics in Anglo-Saxonic language are often quite obvious, as is the case of Johnson (John-SON) and Harrison (Harry-SON). The Russians use the Vich, as in Andre-vich. The Ucranians use the witz, as in Horo-witz. The people from Scandinavia use Erik-SON. Italians use the "DI", as in D. Juan DI Marco, or the libertine Cha-cha DI Guiuseppe from the Grease movie. In every case, it means the act of possession from the father to the son. I recommend you to read as well the excellent wikipedia article on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronymic I hope this has helped to clarify this subject. Best regards, Paulo > Thanks, Ronnie French (decendent of Jose do Espirito Santo and Virginia > Augusta de Freitas Lopes). -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

Thanks, that really helps me understand the origin of some of the names in my family. I didn't know that. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: <luis_k_w@clix.pt> To: <prt-madeira@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 1:34 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Isabel de Gois > Ronnie, > > Family names may have several origins. > > Patronimics (from Pater, from the father's name) like: > Gonc,alves (son of Gonc,alo) > Rodrigues (son of Rodrigo) > Lopes (son of Lopo) > Mendes (son of Mem or Mendo) > Soares (son of Soeiro) > Nunes (son of Nuno) > Anes, Eanes, etc., (son of Joao) > > Toponimics (from topos, from some place; should have a 'de' - meaning > FROM - before the name) like: > (de) Almeida > (de) Castro > (de) Freitas > (de) Gouveia > (de) Gois > (de/da) Silva > (de) Sousa > > Religious, like: > da Conceic,ao > de Jesus > do Espirito Santo > etc. > > Nicknames, like: > Louro > Moreno > Ruivo > Careca > Calvo > Barbas > Guedelha > > Luis K W > Lisboa-Portugal > ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- > Paulo: > Pardon my asking but I'm in the USA and don't understand what you mean > when > you say and use the word, "patronimics". Can you explain? > > Thanks, Ronnie French (decendent of Jose do Espirito Santo and Virginia > Augusta de Freitas Lopes). > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paulo Gomes Jardim" darwin@spamcop.net > To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 3:38 PM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Isabel de Gois > > > On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:01:20 +0100, Gregobhte1@aol.com wrote: > > [..] > Hi Paulo.... > You are absolutely right about the names. Is Isabel and she has a > daughter > Helena. YES!! the confusion is between sources coming from Peter Clode > and the > author of the book Familias da Gaula. > > I also have the book "Familias de Gaula", the last 2005 corrected edition. > I must say it is a monumental effort and a most invaluable book to have > for anyone interested in Madeira Genealogies. It's available for sell in > Junta de Freguesia de Gaula, people aboard interested to acquire it may > probably write to them and ask for an exemplar. > > I must also say that from my experience this book is ridden with errors, > either on dates of marriage, on ascendancy of married couples, and on many > assumptions made there, such as congregating all the Afonsos, Gonçalves, > Rodrigues, Jorges, etc. all in one family, when they are patronimics, and > thus often unrelated between themselves. > It's quite good for using as a guide, but you must always confirm the data > against original records. > The quality of the data improves as we reach modern times, and most living > people from Gaula can easily find their way up from there. It's > unfortunate, however, that a name index is not included, and the method of > classification (surnames, as opposed to lineages) is not the ideal, in my > opinion. > The author, José Lourenço de Gouveia e Freitas, has the immense credit of > dedicating the same effort to popular lineages as to more aristochratic > ones, and took great care to include many expatriate families now living > abroad in USA, Venezuela, South Africa, Jersey, etc.. > > I highly recommend as well "Gaula: a Terra e a Gente", which should act as > a complement for the former one, or vice-versa. I find this book to be > more accurate historically than the genealogical study. > > Paulo > > -- > " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- > Horacio > > > > ------------- > > Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de ? 29,90/mês > A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads > ilimitados! > > Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/ > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRT-MADEIRA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ronnie, Family names may have several origins. Patronimics (from Pater, from the father's name) like: Gonc,alves (son of Gonc,alo) Rodrigues (son of Rodrigo) Lopes (son of Lopo) Mendes (son of Mem or Mendo) Soares (son of Soeiro) Nunes (son of Nuno) Anes, Eanes, etc., (son of Joao) Toponimics (from topos, from some place; should have a 'de' - meaning FROM - before the name) like: (de) Almeida (de) Castro (de) Freitas (de) Gouveia (de) Gois (de/da) Silva (de) Sousa Religious, like: da Conceic,ao de Jesus do Espirito Santo etc. Nicknames, like: Louro Moreno Ruivo Careca Calvo Barbas Guedelha Luis K W Lisboa-Portugal ---------------------- MENSAGEM ORIGINAL ---------------------- Paulo: Pardon my asking but I'm in the USA and don't understand what you mean when you say and use the word, "patronimics". Can you explain? Thanks, Ronnie French (decendent of Jose do Espirito Santo and Virginia Augusta de Freitas Lopes). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paulo Gomes Jardim" darwin@spamcop.net To: prt-madeira@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Isabel de Gois On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:01:20 +0100, Gregobhte1@aol.com wrote: [..] Hi Paulo.... You are absolutely right about the names. Is Isabel and she has a daughter Helena. YES!! the confusion is between sources coming from Peter Clode and the author of the book Familias da Gaula. I also have the book "Familias de Gaula", the last 2005 corrected edition. I must say it is a monumental effort and a most invaluable book to have for anyone interested in Madeira Genealogies. It's available for sell in Junta de Freguesia de Gaula, people aboard interested to acquire it may probably write to them and ask for an exemplar. I must also say that from my experience this book is ridden with errors, either on dates of marriage, on ascendancy of married couples, and on many assumptions made there, such as congregating all the Afonsos, Gonçalves, Rodrigues, Jorges, etc. all in one family, when they are patronimics, and thus often unrelated between themselves. It's quite good for using as a guide, but you must always confirm the data against original records. The quality of the data improves as we reach modern times, and most living people from Gaula can easily find their way up from there. It's unfortunate, however, that a name index is not included, and the method of classification (surnames, as opposed to lineages) is not the ideal, in my opinion. The author, José Lourenço de Gouveia e Freitas, has the immense credit of dedicating the same effort to popular lineages as to more aristochratic ones, and took great care to include many expatriate families now living abroad in USA, Venezuela, South Africa, Jersey, etc.. I highly recommend as well "Gaula: a Terra e a Gente", which should act as a complement for the former one, or vice-versa. I find this book to be more accurate historically than the genealogical study. Paulo -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio ------------- Clix ADSL até 24 Mb: a partir de € 29,90/mês A Internet mais rápida do mercado, agora com chamadas grátis e downloads ilimitados! Saiba mais em http://acesso.clix.pt/

Once again I'm trying to find information about a child (a boy) who died at about 6 months of age when my ancestor and her husband were living in Madeira. I have very little information about the child but feel a burden to record and preserve information about him. Here's information about the child's parents: Father is Antonio Barros da Silva, born 13 June 1892 in Madeira. His parents were Manoel de Barros and Alexandrina C. Silva. Antonio married my ancestor, Senhorinha de Lima, 11 November 1916 in New Bedford, Massachusetts, U.S.A. She was born 16 November 1897 in Graciosa. Her parents were Tristao Correia de Lima and Isabel Thomasia Dutra. Antonio and Senhorinha voyaged to Madeira where their son was born in about 1929. After the child died at about 6 months of age, Antonio and Senhorinha returned to Massachusetts. It's sad to know that Antonio and Senhorinha had another child, a daughter, who died at birth in about 1934 in Massachusetts. I have been researching that child as well. I would be grateful if anyone can provide assistance in locating any information about the baby boy who died in Madeira. Muito obrigado, Greg Lima Washington State, U.S.A.

Ok, I give up with this one. The list seems to mess up my posts on this, or perhaps it's my email client. Anyone interested on what I have on this guy can write me, and I'll send it. Sorry for the many duplicated messages. Paulo -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

------- Forwarded message ------- From: "Paulo Gomes Jardim" <darwin@spamcop.net> To: "Paulo Gomes Jardim" <darwin+usenet@spamcop.net> Subject: Rodrigo Anes da Lombada (Was: [PT-MADEIRA] Anyone there can help me???) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 01:04:18 +0100 On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 22:45:07 +0100, Scot Austin <scotaustin@comcast.net> wrote: > Paulo Gomes Jardim wrote: >> On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 23:25:17 +0100, Scot Austin <scotaustin@comcast.net> >> wrote: [..] >>> Also I have a Rodrigo Annes of Santa Cruz father of Izabel Rodrigues >>> Andrada b abt 1488 both died in Calheta. Izabel married Pedro Berenguer >>> Leminhana of Calheta. >>> >> >> Known as Rodrigo Anes da Lombada, dead before 1511, I have him placed in >> Calheta, where his possessions were located, not Santa Cruz. >> Why do you say he's from Santa Cruz? >> > He is shown in the ancestral file with the following information: > > Birth: Abt 1462 > Of Lombada, S.cruz, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal > Death: Jul 1505 > Calheta, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal > Burial: > S.catarina, Lmbda, S.cruz, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal > > Normally I wouldn't put credence in this source, but in this case it was > submitted by the LDS medieval families committee which was meant to > validate from primary sources all information for inclusion, prior to a > certain date, 1600 or so. However, the committee was eventually > dissolved because the members were unable to agree on standards of proof > and they have never published their sources for what had been submitted. I would like to know why they say he is buried in Stª Catarina, when he died in Calheta. In fact there are many Lombadas in Calheta, it's Lombada-land, indeed. His Lombada could easily be one of those. Now, what we know is: From title BERENGUER, Nobiliary of HHN: "Fez Rodrigo Annes testamento em Julho de 1505, e n’elle se diz criado d’o Infante D. Henrique que Deus haja, e se manda sepultar n’a sua Egreja de Sta. Catharina que elle fez n’a Lombada onde morava." Now, we know from here that it's his Will, not necessarly his death, which dates from July 1505. Now, from some extremely valuable, direct source data: The properties of Rodrigo Anes da Lombada were shared among his heirs in 10 Sep 1511 in CALHETA, this according to a transcription made by Dr. Luís de Mello (from his particular collection). His daughter Isabel Rodrigues de Andrade seems to have been made Morgada, and inherited his properties. As you know, she married Pedro Berenguer de Leminhana, a foreigner from Catalunha. They lived at the place which is still know as Lombo do Doutor, one of Calheta's many Lombadas. What we gather from all this is that, most probably, this misterious Lombada of Rodrigo Anes is what is known today as Lombo do Doutor (from Dr. Pedro de Leminhana), and has nothing to do with Santa Cruz. The mentioned Chapel of Santa Catarina must have disappeared long ago, and has no relation with the other in Santa Cruz, which certainly caused the confusion, even if it's on a small valley, and not on any Lombada at all (it's located precisely where the TAP flight crashed back in 1977). As for Rodrigo Anes, his death can be placed between 1505 and 1511, more close to the later. Hope this helps. Paulo -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 23:57:17 +0100, <Gregobhte1@aol.com> wrote: > I think you may be right about the parents of Catarina vaz. But her son > is > called Domingos de Abreu macedo and another is called Joao Homem.... so > there > we have to prove the names of Abreu, Macedo and Homem all together in > the > family. what do you think? It's one hipotesis, of course. It's interesting, however, that the patronimic Vaz appears often in the Azorean HOMEM. As weak as this is, it may be a clue. I suspect from the COLUMBREIRO as well. They may have come all togheter with someone from Azores, or may be related to the families who went there on an early time. Early Azorean settlers often passed through Madeira before establishing in the Islands. Paulo -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

Hi Mary, All I could gather was this: Endereço: ESTRADA PADRE ALFREDO VIEIRA DE FREITAS N.º254 (9100-079 Santa Cruz) Telefone 291526262 Don't know if they have e-mail, however. Paulo On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 00:07:46 +0100, Mary Frost <tiamaria@frostdesign.com> wrote: > Hello Paulo: > I have been enjoying this discourse though none of these people appear > to be > related to me. > I am most interested in obtaining a copy of the revised Familias de > Gaula. > Could you please provide contact information for the "Junta de Freguesia > de > Gaula"? > Thank you > Mary da Silva Frost -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 22:45:07 +0100, Scot Austin <scotaustin@comcast.net> wrote: > Paulo Gomes Jardim wrote: >> On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 23:25:17 +0100, Scot Austin <scotaustin@comcast.net> >> wrote: [..] >>> Also I have a Rodrigo Annes of Santa Cruz father of Izabel Rodrigues >>> Andrada b abt 1488 both died in Calheta. Izabel married Pedro Berenguer >>> Leminhana of Calheta. >>> >> >> Known as Rodrigo Anes da Lombada, dead before 1511, I have him placed in >> Calheta, where his possessions were located, not Santa Cruz. >> Why do you say he's from Santa Cruz? >> > He is shown in the ancestral file with the following information: > > Birth: Abt 1462 > Of Lombada, S.cruz, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal > Death: Jul 1505 > Calheta, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal > Burial: > S.catarina, Lmbda, S.cruz, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal > > Normally I wouldn't put credence in this source, but in this case it was > submitted by the LDS medieval families committee which was meant to > validate from primary sources all information for inclusion, prior to a > certain date, 1600 or so. However, the committee was eventually > dissolved because the members were unable to agree on standards of proof > and they have never published their sources for what had been submitted. I would like to know why they say he is buried in Stª Catarina, when he died in Calheta. In fact there are many Lombadas in Calheta, it's Lombada-land, indeed. His Lombada could easily be one of those. Now, what we know is: From title BERENGUER, Nobiliary of HHN: "Fez Rodrigo Annes testamento em Julho de 1505, e n’elle se diz criado d’o Infante D. Henrique que Deus haja, e se manda sepultar n’a sua Egreja de Sta. Catharina que elle fez n’a Lombada onde morava." Now, we know from here that it's his Will, not necessarly his death, which dates from July 1505. Now, from some extremely valuable, direct source data: The properties of Rodrigo Anes da Lombada were shared among his heirs in 10 Sep 1511 in CALHETA, this according to a transcription made by Dr. Luís de Mello (from his particular collection). His daughter Isabel Rodrigues de Andrade seems to have been made Morgada, and inherited his properties. As you know, she married Pedro Berenguer de Leminhana, a foreigner from Catalunha. They lived at the place which is still know as Lombo do Doutor, one of Calheta's many Lombadas. What we gather from all this is that, most probably, this misterious Lombada of Rodrigo Anes is what is known today as Lombo do Doutor (from Dr. Pedro de Leminhana), and has nothing to do with Santa Cruz. The mentioned Chapel of Santa Catarina must have disappeared long ago, and has no relation with the other in Santa Cruz, which certainly caused the confusion, even if it's on a small valley, and not on any Lombada at all (it's located precisely where the TAP flight crashed back in 1977). As for Rodrigo Anes, his death can be placed between 1505 and 1511, more close to the later. Hope this helps. Paulo -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 22:45:07 +0100, Scot Austin <scotaustin@comcast.net> wrote: > Paulo Gomes Jardim wrote: >> On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 23:25:17 +0100, Scot Austin <scotaustin@comcast.net> >> wrote: [..] >>> Also I have a Rodrigo Annes of Santa Cruz father of Izabel Rodrigues >>> Andrada b abt 1488 both died in Calheta. Izabel married Pedro Berenguer >>> Leminhana of Calheta. >>> >> >> Known as Rodrigo Anes da Lombada, dead before 1511, I have him placed in >> Calheta, where his possessions were located, not Santa Cruz. >> Why do you say he's from Santa Cruz? >> > He is shown in the ancestral file with the following information: > > Birth: Abt 1462 > Of Lombada, S.cruz, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal > Death: Jul 1505 > Calheta, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal > Burial: > S.catarina, Lmbda, S.cruz, Madeira, Funchal, Portugal > > Normally I wouldn't put credence in this source, but in this case it was > submitted by the LDS medieval families committee which was meant to > validate from primary sources all information for inclusion, prior to a > certain date, 1600 or so. However, the committee was eventually > dissolved because the members were unable to agree on standards of proof > and they have never published their sources for what had been submitted. I would like to know why they say he is buried in Stª Catarina, when he died in Calheta. In fact there are many Lombadas in Calheta, it's Lombada-land, indeed. His Lombada could easily be one of those. Now, what we know is: From title BERENGUER, Nobiliary of HHN: "Fez Rodrigo Annes testamento em Julho de 1505, e n’elle se diz criado d’o Infante D. Henrique que Deus haja, e se manda sepultar n’a sua Egreja de Sta. Catharina que elle fez n’a Lombada onde morava." Now, we know from here that it's his Will, not necessarly his death, which dates from July 1505. Now, from some extremely valuable, direct source data: The properties of Rodrigo Anes da Lombada were shared among his heirs in 10 Sep 1511 in CALHETA, this according to a transcription made by Dr. Luís de Mello (from his particular collection). His daughter Isabel Rodrigues de Andrade seems to have been made Morgada, and inherited his properties. As you know, she married Pedro Berenguer de Leminhana, a foreigner from Catalunha. They lived at the place which is still know as Lombo do Doutor, one of Calheta's many Lombadas. What we gather from all this is that, most probably, this misterious Lombada of Rodrigo Anes is what is known today as Lombo do Doutor (from Dr. Pedro de Leminhana), and has nothing to do with Santa Cruz. The mentioned Chapel of Santa Catarina must have disappeared long ago, and has no relation with the other in Santa Cruz, which certainly caused the confusion, even if it's on a small valley, and not on any Lombada at all (it's located precisely where the TAP flight crashed back in 1977). As for Rodrigo Anes, his death can be placed between 1505 and 1511, more close to the later. Hope this helps. Paulo -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 22:45:07 +0100, Scot Austin <scotaustin@comcast.net> wrote: > I have long been interested in the notion that his grandfather, Prince > Henry Sinclair acquired navigational information on his reputed 1398 Why do you name him Prince? I only have him as Count of Orkney. Can you tell me as well more about that voyage, and the source for it? I have yet to dedicate some time to the research of this part of the family. :-\ > voyage to Nova Scotia that may have been passed on from John's son, João > Escorcio to Cristao Colon. This voyage, the Zeno map and Columbus' > nationality are the subject of much dispute and controversy. But is > fascinating. Eheh - Yes, it's curious, but I don't find it to be much probable. João da Escócia seems to have settled here as a quiet farmer, I don't recall his family to be much involved in navigation affairs. The guys living here traveling to the New World seem to have been rather from the poor or middle class (Escudeiros), guys who managed to find a patron, and there they went, to live an adventurous life at the ocean. It is said that the existance of the New World was common knowledge in Funchal's taverns at the 15th century, and indeed more than one expedition is documented to have been arranged to explore those lands. It's easy to presume that young Cristovão (at the time an obscure sugar merchant, and not very honest at that) stumbled across one of those conversations, managed to gather some drafts and rudimentary maps from the Funchal seaman, and was smart enough to take profit from this. In fact, there's not any need from Bartolomeu Perestrelo presumed navigation charters, or those ones from the Sinclairs. All you need is some coups of wine and a drunked seaman, the rest will come naturally. ;) -- " Pallida mors aequo pulsat pede pauperum tabernas regumque turres." -- Horacio