Hi Miguel, According to Clode (and sorry I don't have the title of the book, just a photo copy of page 149 with the title Gois) his descendants were not of nobility. Here's what I have: Gois Os deste apelido procedem de Brites de Gois, filha de Joao do Rego e de Beatriz de Gois e mulher de Lancarote Teixeira, filho do segundo donatario de Machico. Deste casamento houve 13 filhos. O Dr. Alvaro de Azevedo nas sua notas as <Saudades da Terra>, tambem diz que este apelido originariamente deriva de D. Anciao da Estrada, Asturiano, que foi senhor de Gois. No Porto Santo ha uma famiia Gois de Mendonca cujo tronco era Manuel Rocha, casado com Maria Coelho; um filho deste, Atanasio Mendes Gaviao, casou em 1700 com Mariana de Gois, filha de Luiz de Castro Ferreira e de Brites de Gois e daqui aquele nome. Nao pertenceram a nobreza. This may explain why you couldn't find the link. I had reached the said couple Manuel Rocha and Maria Coelho. and could go no further and was puzzled that for several generations everyone leading up to the Atanasio had been de Gois de Mendonca (or some variant) and all of a sudden the names all changed. So Atanasio's son, Antoniol (and my direct ancestor) chose his mother and maternal grandmother's last name. His mother is listed in all the certificates as Mariana de Gois but his grandmother is Beatriz de Gois de Mendoza -which is the first time I've see this spelling in any of my certificates. Now I will wait and see where the documents for Beatriz's parents take me.... I also wonder where Clode got his information from. I have not been able to find a marriage certificate for Atanasio and Mariana, yet he states that they were married in 1700. Thank you again for all your help. Janette On 3-Dec-09, at 4:28 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: > Hello Janette, > > Ok. I just saw the Travassos, in Clode, FPMPS pg 317. Isabel de > Góis must > be Góis by his mother, Catarina Nunes. My guess. And as the > Teixeiras .from > Lançarote teixeira, carried the name Góis, she must be Góis and > Teixeira. > > (The Teixeiras are another Casta Grande. I bet 90 % of madeirans > nowadys > have Teixeira's blood)- > > It shows as I had predicted (no big deal, Madeira is small, and at > one point > you know intuitively who is who) a Mendonça, the mother of Manuel > Travassos, the wife of Manuel Rodrigues Travassos. > > On other hand ( where my predictions fail) I thought he would link > with the > Travassos Magalhães. But Clode does not confirm that. Still... > > Anyway it's a good find for you. Looking forward for more > developments. > Because it's a promising line. But...let's see, > > Best regards, > > Miguel > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Janette Chun <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Thanks Miguel. Yes I know of these all except Morgado Pereira de >> Agrela. I haven't really looked at any of the Clode works, but it >> was >> in fact through his work that I was able to get to this particular >> ancestor, thanks to a page from his book, which the archive sent me >> on >> the Gois family. >> >> I just recently took out a subscription to geneall but so far haven't >> discovered any new nuggets of information. Will keep looking. >> >> Janette >> >> >> >> On 3-Dec-09, at 9:07 AM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: >> >>> Well, >>> >>> >>> You proibably know already all that are available, You have >>> Felsiberto, HHN, >>> Clode, and FMPS Clode and Meneses and Morgado Pereira de Agrela. >>> Geneall has >>> some info about Madeira genealogies. And the personal best Madeiran >>> genealogies are to be found in some of our list colleagues >>> >>> >>> I'll try to find out the Travassos in Pereira de Agrela. Once I >>> looked for >>> them and it had valuable and original info about them. >>> >>> At one point some a Travassos (from 15th century) whose alcunha was >>> " O >>> Pequenininho) was the Carcereiro, the man in charge of Porto Santo >>> prison. >>> A friend, a nobleman was quite schocked to see him in such a >>> station. What >>> you, from the noble Travassos, in such a terrible job? >>> The Pequenininho had some flourished and philosophical. answer- I >>> don't >>> recall the terms. But it was somnething like: " Alas my good friend, >>> such is >>> life that, though God forbid, one day you may be in the same >>> position as >>> myself." >>> >>> To be called Pequenininho- - is because he was very very small in >>> stature, >>> but not in dignity. >>> >>> Miguel >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Janette Chun <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks Miguel. I have a some information on the Calacas and >>>> Ornellas. >>>> Any pointers on other resources for informaton on the Texeiras, >>>> Castros, etc. ? >>>> >>>> Janette >>>> On 3-Dec-09, at 7:49 AM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: >>>> >>>>> Bingo! I was sure he was from Porto Santo. He probably connects >>>>> with >>>>> the >>>>> first Travassos from Porto Santo. >>>>> >>>>> And so with the Teixeiras, Calaças, Castros, Mendonças. >>>>> Vasconcelos >>>>> and >>>>> Ornelas. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> regards, >>>>> Miguel >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Janette Chun <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Miguel, >>>>>> >>>>>> 1600s - the marriage date is 1649 >>>>>> >>>>>> Manuel Travassos Isabel de Góis Porto Santo 1649 >>>>>> 991 >>>>>> 26 >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>> Janette >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3-Dec-09, at 4:47 AM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello Janette, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From which year is he? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The name is not very common. It is very ancient. It is a >>>>>>> toponymic. >>>>>>> And the >>>>>>> Travassos from the XVI th century were considered as nobility. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Miguel >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 9:10 AM, Janette Chun <[email protected] >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> With the invaluable help of Luis Beal, I now have an ancestor >>>>>>>> named >>>>>>>> Manuel Travassos. I've never come across this last name >>>>>>>> before - >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> a quick internet search revealed that there are quite a few. >>>>>>>> Does >>>>>>>> anyone know the origins of this name? Is it common in Madeira? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Janette >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2-Dec-09, at 9:40 PM, Janette Chun wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks Luis! No not gothic yet....LOL >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I will email the pdf files to the address you provided. >>>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>>> again. >>>>>>>>> Janette >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 2-Dec-09, at 10:14 AM, Luis Beal wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That was me. Just e-mail an attachment to [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> 1600's I hope it isn't gothic cause that I can't read :) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Luis Beal >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain >>>>>>>>>> perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life >>>>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>>>> it is woven into the life of our ancestors." >>>>>>>>>> Cicero, Roman orator >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> From: Janette Chun <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> To: PRT-MADEIRA <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 9:27:18 AM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Help reading certificates >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hello all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I've enjoyed the exchange of emails over the last few weeks. >>>>>>>>>> Great to >>>>>>>>>> see the forum active again. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I recall reading an offer to help read some certificates but >>>>>>>>>> can't >>>>>>>>>> remember who : ( - old age! I recently received two >>>>>>>>>> certificates >>>>>>>>>> from the 1600s which are a little difficult to decipher - I >>>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>> I've >>>>>>>>>> sort of figured it out, but would welcome a second opinion as >>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> familiar with some of the abbreviations. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Janette Chun >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> the body of the message >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> the body of the message >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>>>>>> without the >>>>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>>>> without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> [email protected] >>>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >>>>> the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] >>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >>> the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

Jose said:It is our Irish link! Miguel said:Irish? How come? refresh me, please, because it's my favourite country,apart from Portugal ; - )) Cece says-My question exactly!! And especially since that is the next biggest part of my ancestry. Why is it an Irish link?? Jose said: On Madelena Jorge. It says she was from the Fragas, the one married in 1622 to Pedro Gonçalves. Her parents were Jorge Dias and Catarina de Castro Caniço, 1585). Jorge's parents are Gonçalo Jorge and Agueda Dias. Cece says-Do you know if this Goncalo Jorge was married twice? I have a Goncalo Jorge (same time frame) married to Dona Policena Teixeira. I checked geneall and they have a Goncalo Jorge de Chaves married to Leonor Teixeira that look to be the same couple maybe..as both my Policena (from Teixeiras de Tristao Vaz) and their Leonor are daughters of João Teixeira Escórcio (although even there is a conflict as different mothers are listed). -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 3:27 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 4:57 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > Here, on Francisco it would be interesting to find where Gabriel Vaz > or Maria de Cairos come from. They marry in Camacha. In his marriage > and he doesn't use D'Orta and then suddenly at his son's he his a > D'Orta. Is it possible it is just that he had a "horta"? > Well, theoretically yes. It could be possible that he was named D'Orta because he had an Horta. But an horta is a small and trivial thing, and he was a Lavrador. He had to be a wealthy Lavrador since he married a Viana, from nobility. I don't see that the Vianas, proud owners of the best marble tomb in Madeira, would give away a daughter to a guy that had an Horta. The Vianas had high status on earth and on heavens! > We have had already had a conversation on the Sousas. Jerónimo is my > 11th, from Azores and so on. It is our Irish link! > > Irish? How come? refresh me, please, because it's my favourite > country, apart from Portugal ; - )) > I do have a Vitória Miranda married to Marcos Francisco de Braga in 1567. > This is through my Fernandes Veloza main branch. > > Marcos must be of the real Bragas, because that´s a name (Marcos) they > used a lot. Some Marques, may come from one of the Marcos de Braga. So do you have a connection with Diogo Cão, the navigator (thorugh the Bragas) ? Vitória either is from the Correias Mirandas, or from the Lourenço de Miranda branch, I suppose. > As you know I too, Cecce and others link to Mundos de Nóbrega. Yes, I know. It is great to find so many cousins. > Terras de Nóbrega is a beautiful place, at least on the internet site. > I shall visit itr one of these days. FDo you have any money to restore > the castle? If the Nóbregas are from there, noblesse oblige, we have to help to restore that castle ; -)) > I like the Mundos name. In fact, there are Nóbregas all over the world now! > Yes. It was a prophetic name. > > The Vianas must come from Viana do Castelo. Been there. Liked the place. > > On Madelena Jorge. It says she was from the Fragas, the one married in 1622 > to Pedro Gonçalves. Her parents were Jorge Dias and Catarina de Castro > (Caniço, 1585). Jorge's parents are Gonçalo Jorge and Agueda Dias. That's on spot. Is what I have too. I still have to figure out from where this Fragas came to madeira, because it's nor a common name. > Can't find that certificate. Any help is most welcome! By the way, > Gonçalo is a "mestre d'açucar. Catarina's parents are Pedro Afonso, he > was a "lavrador" and seemed to have married twice, and Maria Alves. I > only know Maria's mother a widow- Gregória Martins. > Yes- Gonçalo is the responsible for my blood liking to run with rum. A very guilty man. Has spoiled generations ; -)) > Any links here to Porto Santo. Perhaps through Martins? > I don't know, though... Martins does'nt sound to me as a typical Portosantense name. But... regards, Miguel > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:27 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > José, > > He is the same Francisco. Sometimes name were shortened Anyway the > d'Orta name puzzles me. There are the Hurtere, Flemish, from Açores > (which gave the name to cidade da Horta), and the Horta, from Spain. > Could he be from Açores ? From the Hurtere branch? Never heard someone > raising this question before. May be I am 100% wrong. > > The Sás or Sousas e Sás from Caniço are, in part Sousas (by way of > Jerónimo de Sousa, the trunk of that line) from Açores. I can't > remember now their Sá name origin. It was a mighty name then, not > common, though there were some Sás commoners and a few Sás nobles. > Anyway a noble having Sá as a name would use it proudly. Like the > Bettencourts de Sá did. > Curuosly the Sás originate in Porto (Portugal) from bourgeois origins, > around the mid 14 th century. So it's not that old. (A really old name > in Portugal is a name existing before 1143, before King Afonso > Henriques declared independence from Castille) when Portugal was still > Comitat Portucalensis. > > I also have lots of Corrêas de Miranda (from Caniço) , coming from the > first Corrêa de Miranda settler. Do you have them too? Actually my > g.grand mother was Eulália de Jesus Corrêa de Miranda, her godfather > was Morgado Jacinto de Freitas Lomelino, still a relative. She married > a Nóbrega from the line of Mundos da Nóbrega. (They say Mundos name > was Edmundo. It's quite probable. > But I like the way it stayed for posterity : Mundos. The translation > in English, of course, is "Worlds". Quite meaningful. At least I give > it a lot of meaning, though Mundos was illiterate. I have his > signature, a typical cross. ) > > The point about the origin of the Nóbrega surname is: was Nóbrega a > toponymic, or not? In short , did the first Madeira Nóbrega came from > the "Terras de Nóbrega", or did they carry the name Nóbrega? In the > later case they could be a branch of the Aboim. But I have not seen > this problem satisfactorily solved. One day, if Nóbrega is an added > patronymic then wi will have to dive in the Gonçalves of Terras de > Anóbrega - another way of saying Nóbrega. And that's for sure cnossian! > > The Regos seems to be from Algarve. The trunk of the Vianas, according > to primo Clode, was Afonso Viana, from Caniço. > > >From him was descended João de Viana, Fidalgo Escudeiro da Casa Real, > "whose > descendants mixed with the Cairos from Caniço".(source: Clode. FMPS pg > 333). > > The Vianas in that time were very rich, had a marble tomb, much > envied, because they were perhaps the only ones in Madeira to afford such a luxury. > (There is no marble in Madeira). Other noble families wanted to have a > marble tomb " na feissão da de João de Vianna) (similar to the marble > tom of the magnífico Viana). > > Don' forget ti tell me about your Dias Saldanha. > > Mine were Manuel Dias Saldanha m. Maria de Andrada ( from the Ferreira > Noronhas). His parents were Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. (m. > around 162...) > Perdo Dias Saldanha was a natural son of Diogo Annes Saldanha (ouvidor > de > Machico) and Concórdia Fernandes. (I suppose Concórdia was a black > woman, or mestiça. But I don't know why I suppose so. Perhaps Paulo > can shed some light in here* She was Diogo's "amiga". (lovely > expression for lover.) Ana Henriques, obviously, interests me. Now the > Henriques name, being a patronymic, is a hard bone to crunch. > Unfortunately there is no marriage certificate for Pedro Dias Saldanha > and Ana Henriques. > > The interesting thing is to find Saldanhas in Madeira, at an early time. > Almost after the first settlement. I am almost sure . due to their > status, that they were from the Saldanhas that came to Portugal from Spain. > > And as I lived quite near Praça do Saldanha , in Lisbon ( Duke of > Saldanha > Square) during many years, this name interests me a lot. I also have > friends with that name, direct descendants of the first Saldanhas who > came to Portugal. > > About Madalena Jorge, i have scores of Jorges too. Some, were from > Porto Santo, descendants of Pedro Jorge (From the terrible mess of the > mid 16 th Calaças). Others from Gaula, and have nothing to do with the > former. And still others like BeatrizJorge married to Manuel Afonso, > (16 th century) that I can't track. > > > Regards, > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: 12/03/09 07:32:00

Jose said: It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the Ferreiras, but it seems odd. Miguel said:I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo Dias (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. Cece says: Looks like both Diogo and Manuels children decided that their mothers names were "better", because neither became Dias Saldanhas. Diogo Dias son is Antonio Ferreira and Manuel Dias son is Matias Andrade -so both took Moms name instead. Jose said: On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! Cece says-Tome de Burgos is my ancestor and Manuel de Viana (de Caires) is his son in law-married to his daughter Antonia. I don't see any familial relationship to Diogo Dias yet, though it may be there - do you? -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:24 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos Miguel You keep up like this and I am going to have to get part of the family will! I have heard of the Duke but I don't know or remember where Praça de Saldanha in Lisbon is. However, may I accept your invitation, and God willing or "Oxalá que tenhamos boa saúde e tempo" and we shall meet for a celebration. On the Duke you are going to have to work that line for me. It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the Ferreiras, but it seems odd. On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! José, waiting for that manzanillo -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:43 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos Ok. José- So we have one more couple of ancestors in common! The name is Pedro. I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo Dias (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. Shall we meet for a coffee and a cup of manzanillo in Praça de Saldanha to celebrate? The Duke is still our cousin, after all ; -) Bitório was written according to the Northern (North of Portugal) accent. They still say baca for vaca, bino for vinho. And Bitório for Vitório or Vitorino. So he is Vitório or Vitorino Pires. Though the old and "wrong" (wrong for southerners) Bitório is endearing. Miguel On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > And... > > On Dias Saldanha ( can't decipher his first name) who married Ana > Henriques, but I can't find that certificate, his son is Diogo Dias > who marries Maria Ferreira in Caniço, 1651, 902, 225V. > > On Filipa Do Quintal, this is how it is spelled in their daughters' > marriage certificate (Ana Pires) how do you spell her husband's name? > Bitorio or is it an old writing for Victorino? > > José > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: 12/03/09 07:32:00

De nada ; -)) On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 3:40 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > thank you so much for this tip miguel. I will certainly look over there :) > > > In a message dated 12/3/2009 4:34:47 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > No, Leandro, not at all. It's free. Just write family search in your > searching engine. And you'll get to the LDS site. It's a wealthy place, a > mine of info. > > > The microfilms, they do actually provide them. Someone here might explain > better to you how to get them, because I never asked for microfilms. But I > have searched what they to offer for free in their site. > > > It contains some mistakes, of course. Like wrong spelling (the most > frequent). But still is a very valuable tool. And for Madeira it has > loads, > For instance, my Teixeira de Góis connection. I was able to determine it > through the LDS site, then I asked ARM the certificates. It also worked > for > other lines, like the Drummond/ Escórcio. > Of course in other lines that interest me they don't have nothing. But I > bet > you'll get hooked in that site. > > > Best, > > Miguel > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:30 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > sorry for my ignorance :) but dont we have to apply for the microfilms > to > > be able to see the data? > > > > > > In a message dated 12/3/2009 3:28:51 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > Later Day Saints, the Moromon Site. > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 1:09 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > what is LDS? > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/3/2009 2:08:31 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > LDS not LSD! ; - ))) > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > > > > > About Filipa de Quintal check LSD sources. > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 3:59 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > >> i didn't have guiomar mendes parents listed before. i have mendo > > and > > > ines > > > >> having a daughter called leonor mendes that married joao > goncalves > > in > > > >> canico. So i think that you are defnitel in the right track > there. > > > Our > > > >> task now > > > >> is to try to link those quintal de matos with the other quintals > :) > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> In a message dated 03/12/2009 04:55:01 Romance Standard Time, > > > >> [email protected] writes: > > > >> > > > >> ok I have to try to put these pieces together - > > > >> > > > >> I do not have your Pedro de Quintal - but I do have a Guiomar > > Mendes - > > > >> about the right frame- she is the daughter of > > > >> Mendo ANES & Inês GONCALVES - but I don't have a marriage for > her > > - > > > is > > > >> she > > > >> the same Guiomar? > > > >> If not, who are your Guiomar Mendes parents?? > > > >> > > > >> I also have your Teodosio de Matos (sourced as you)...but I did > not > > > have > > > >> his parents...so I will need to add that info. > > > >> > > > >> After that...anything is possible I suppose! > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ____________________________________ > > > >> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > > > >> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:46 PM > > > >> To: [email protected] > > > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Hi cece > > > >> > > > >> i have an ancestor called Pedro quental (can be also quintal) > that > > > >> married > > > >> in 1558 in Machico with Guiomar Mendes. Their son is called > Teodosio > > > de > > > >> Matos. So i presume that the pedro quintal also carry the name > > matos > > > >> within > > > >> his family. Pedro's parents are Pedro quintal (from mainland) and > > > Barbara > > > >> Vieira. Could pedro and barbara also be the parents of your > > francisca > > > de > > > >> matos?? > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> In a message dated 03/12/2009 04:36:51 Romance Standard Time, > > > >> [email protected] writes: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Her mother only is listed on her marriage record - says she is > > awidow > > > >> living > > > >> in Porto Novo...her name is Francisca de QUINTAL and she is my > > 11th > > > >> great > > > >> grandmother. > > > >> Cece > > > >> > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: [email protected] > > > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > >> [email protected] > > > >> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:21 PM > > > >> To: [email protected] > > > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > >> > > > >> Hi Miguel, > > > >> > > > >> do you know the parents of Filipa Quintal de Matos? > > > >> > > > >> Thank you > > > >> > > > >> Leandro > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> In a message dated 02/12/2009 23:37:07 Romance Standard Time, > > > >> [email protected] writes: > > > >> > > > >> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 6:42 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > > >> [email protected]> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > Miguel, > > > >> > As you know I am a Fernandes Veloza, a name that my > maternal > > > >> grandfathers > > > >> > carried through for about 250 years. The Veloza name came > > through a > > > >> maternal > > > >> > line, Ana Cristina who married my great (5) grandfather in > 1746. > > > My > > > >> maternal > > > >> > grandfather was the only son in that branch. He only had two > > > >> > daughters, > > > >> but > > > >> > managed to register my mother with the Fernandes Veloza name. > > The > > > >> > last > > > >> one! > > > >> > So, I am assuming that this Manuel was at the very least a > > cousin. > > > As > > > >> > you know they were Lobatos, from Francisco Esteves Lobato. > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On the Cairos, Francisco de Cairos da Orta marries in > Caniço > > and > > > his > > > >> > my great (10) grandfather. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Is he Cairos de Orta or Cairos da Orta? > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > His mother was a Cairos and she married in camacha. it seems > > that > > > >> > Clode list 4 or 5 lines for Cairos, but to me they all seem > to > > > >> connect. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> As a matter of fact he refers 6 lines of Cairos. The last one > > being > > > >> Cairos > > > >> Vaz, which is a sub-branch of the main Cairos trunk. > > > >> > > > >> I also believe that all the Cairos branches are connected. > They > > are > > > >> several > > > >> branches of the same trunk. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > These Cairos he seems to call them Vaz Cairos, for Maria > Cairos > > > >> > marries Gabriel Vaz. > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Many Cairos settled in Caniço, or they became many. They had > > > status > > > >> > and some retained their status. But on a land based society > > where > > > the > > > >> > oldest > > > >> son > > > >> > for the most part inherited the land, the other children > soon > > lost > > > >> status, > > > >> > and in one or two generations that name was the only thing > that > > > >> > remained > > > >> of > > > >> > that high status. > > > >> > Of course we also share the Nóbrega line. I would have to > trust > > the > > > >> > published genealogies to link to Fernão Gonçalves de > Nóbrega, > > but I > > > >> > definitely descend from Gabriel de Nóbrega married to > Francisca > > > Cunha > > > >> around > > > >> > 1615. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Francisca is not Cunham she is de Ocanha, I have a marriage > > > certificate > > > >> from Caniço where she appears. She is certainly connected to > the > > > Ocanha > > > >> (or > > > >> Canhas) family referred by HHN. Gabriel is the son of Fernão > > > Gonçalves > > > >> de > > > >> Nórega. I have his marriage certificate. And Fernão is the son > of > > > Mundos > > > >> de > > > >> Nóbrega. > > > >> > > > >> Fernão's wife Ana Pires is the dau. of Vitório Pires and > Filipa do > > > >> Quintal > > > >> de Matos. The LDS forum gives her as descendant of the Crés. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > He was my great(8) grandfather. This Joana must be a > > > granddaughter. > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> She is a g.g. grandaughter. > > > >> > > > >> 0.1. Mundos de Nóbrega > > > >> 1. Gabriel m. Francisca d'Ocanha > > > >> 1.2. Gabriel de Nóbrega m. Maria Joirge dau of Pedro Gonçalves > > and > > > >> Madalena > > > >> Jorge (from the Fragas) 1.3. Francisca de Nóbrega m. Matias de > > > Amdrada > > > >> 1.4 Joana de Nóbrega m. Francisco de Gouveia 1.4. Mariana de > > Nóbrega > > > m, > > > >> Manuel Gomes de Andrada > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > I also have a Dias Saldanha in the late 1500's. > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> Which one? > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Some Noronhas also married into my family, but they were > > women. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Who were they? There are other Noronhas apart from Manuel de > > Noronha, > > > >> though they all come from the same source: D. Alfonso > Henriques, > > > Count > > > >> of > > > >> Gijón and Noroña, son of D. Henrique III, King of Castille. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Not sure we can link these Noronhas to Manuel de Noronha. I > > haven't > > > >> > seen anything that links them to the Caniço Noronha. I > didn't > > know > > > >> > Manuel was > > > >> a > > > >> > poet. Never read any of his poems or songs. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> They're on line. Visconde do Porto da Cruz made a book > referring > > all > > > >> remarkable Madeirans. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > I knew" him through Count Landi who doesn't mention anything > > about > > > >> > his poetry. > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Porrada existed in my times. Porra had other meanings in > > Madeira, > > > >> including > > > >> > the thin line foamy top of newly made wine. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Is'nt that "borra?" > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > But there were others! > > > >> > > > > >> > Indeed ; -))) > > > >> > > > >> Best regards, > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Miguel > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Cheers, > > > >> > José > > > >> > > > > >> > -----Original Message----- > > > >> > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > >> > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > Castro > > > >> Henriques > > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:17 PM > > > >> > To: [email protected] > > > >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > >> > > > > >> > José, > > > >> > > > > >> > Maria de Jesus m. 1784 Manuel Fernandes Veloza, was the dau. > of > > > >> > Manuel Gomes de Andrada m. 1744 Mariana de Nóbrega. (see > > below) > > > 1.1. > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > Manuel Gomes de Andrada was the son of Simão Gomes ( > descendant > > of > > > >> > the > > > >> João > > > >> > Marques and Catarina Alves, the trunk of the Marques Arrais) > > and > > > >> > Mariana > > > >> de > > > >> > Andrade, dau, of António de Andrade Barreto m. 1691 Domingas > da > > > Costa. > > > >> > > > > >> > António de Andrade Barreto was the son of Manuel Fernandes > > Camacho > > > >> > and Maria de Andrade (1650, S. Gonçalo, I suppose) (Apart > from > > the > > > >> > Ferreiras "Casta grande" we have also the "Fernandes Camacho > > "Casta > > > >> > grande" - they were as many as the Ferreira, at least.) > Domingas > > da > > > >> > Costa or Domingas Gomes da Costa was the dau. of Manuel de > > Cairos > > > and > > > >> > Maria Gomes. (1662, S. Pedro) > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > I have more Cairos from other sides. (From the first Cairos > from > > > >> > Madeira) Most mysterious name! It seems no one knows for > sure > > where > > > >> > that name came from. At least of all the classic genealogists > > from > > > >> > Madeira no one seems > > > >> to > > > >> > know precisely the origin of that name. They gave hints: > perhaps > > a > > > >> > toponymic from a village called Cairos somewhere in the > North > > of > > > >> > Portugal. But, as far as I know, it's not confirmed, > > > >> > > > > >> > Only thing known is that they were an old family, present > since > > > the > > > >> > 15 th century. There was one Constantino de Cairos who was a > > > knight. > > > >> > And apart > > > >> of > > > >> > their division in Cairos de Orta, Cairos Vaz and Cairos > > Gonçalves, > > > >> > and > > > >> that > > > >> > they are not to be confounded with Caires (of french origin) > - > > > though > > > >> some > > > >> > Cairos wrote Caires, I still don't know much about them. > Yes, I > > > know > > > >> > they settled - at least some of them - in Caniço. They were > > > >> > lavradores, most > > > >> of > > > >> > them. But lavradores with some status. > > > >> > > > > >> > 1.1. Mariana de Nóbrega, dau of Francisco de Gouveia and > Joana > > de > > > >> > Nóbrega (m. 1726) has an interesting ascendancy tree, > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > >From her father side she descends from Correias de Andrade > ( > > from > > > S. > > > >> > Martinho,- linked to the old Andrades do Arco? ) and the > > "famous" > > > > > > >> > Pedro Gonçalves and Margarida de Góis. From her mother side > she > > > >> > descends from > > > >> the > > > >> > oldest Nóbregas . our well known Mundos de Nóbrega, and > Fernão > > > >> > Gonçalves > > > >> de > > > >> > Nóbrega (the biggest slave owner of Madeira, according to > Livro > > das > > > >> > Famílias de Gaula - is that true? If it is you and I and > many > > > others > > > >> > have a lot of bad family karma to burn. Personally I like > black > > > >> > people a lot and I am > > > >> not > > > >> > racist at all. I even think we Portuguese are half Africans, > > > that's > > > >> > why > > > >> we > > > >> > have all these problems integrating Europe) and if you see > the > > > >> > geography > > > >> we > > > >> > are separated by two inches of water from Africa.), and also > > from > > > the > > > >> > Saldanhas of Madeira and the Noronha from Caniço. (who have > > > >> legitimately, I > > > >> > believe, all the little blue golden green and so on balls > in > > > geneall > > > >> > ; > > > >> > -))) > > > >> > > > > >> > These Saldanhas from Madeira are another mystery. It seems > > > (according > > > >> > to the writer Gonalo de Aguiar in "Coisas da Madeira" and > other > > > >> > authors) that > > > >> they > > > >> > were noble and rich. I can't link them with the old Saldanhas > > from > > > >> > Portugal. > > > >> > Though they have the same name and surnames - Diogo and > João > > as > > > their > > > >> > possible Portuguese ancestors. Now, Saldanha in the 15 th > > century > > > was > > > >> > a recent name in Portugal. It came from Spain, through the > > > >> > descendants of Diogo Lopez de Saldanha, a Spanish, that for > > > political > > > >> > reasons had to > > > >> flee > > > >> > from Spain to Portugal. > > > >> > I descend from Diogo Ennes Saldanha and his black or > coloured > > > >> > mistress, Concórdia Fernandes. > > > >> > > > > >> > The Noronhas from Caniço are well known. The great thing > from > > my > > > >> > point of view is that they descend from Manuel de Noronha , > > "poeta > > > do > > > >> Cancioneiro". > > > >> > (Poet from the "Cancioneiro". The Cancioneiro was probably > the > > > first > > > >> > anthology of poetry to be made in Portugal. 16 th century. > Manuel > > de > > > >> > Noronha was also a Câmara, son of João Gonçalves da Cãmara, > 2nd > > > >> > Capitão Donatário do Funchal. O Porrinha! > > > >> > For those who don't know, already in that time madeirna were > > quick > > > to > > > >> > baptize everyone with an alcunha. The 2nd Capitão donatário > (a > > kind > > > >> > of > > > >> King > > > >> > of Madeira) was also the Supreme Judge or Justice. And he > loved > > to > > > >> > administer it! He really did. And to reinforce the adminst > ration > > of > > > >> Justice > > > >> > he carried a big stick with him all the time. ( originally > "dar > > > >> porrada" > > > >> in > > > >> > Portugal means to beat someone with a Porra, a big wooden > > stick. > > > We > > > >> > still say porra! a lot and "porreiro" meaning cute even > more.) > > He > > > >> > experimented, vigorously it seems, his stick on the back of > > some > > > >> > criminals or transgressors. hence his alcunha, diminutive by > > > >> > antinomy, o Porrinha. But his "porrinha" was indeed a big > Porra, > > > >> perhaps > > > >> skinned with some metal. > > > >> > > > > >> > Well, these ancestors who provide a stream of stories are > really > > > >> precious. > > > >> > Moreover these Noronhas link with a turbulent royal > Castillian > > > >> > dinasty, > > > >> the > > > >> > Trastamaras - and there you dive in in centuries of pure > greek > > > >> > tragedy, full of episodes, treasons. battles, crimes and > > > fratricides > > > >> > for all tastes. > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > Best regards, > > > >> > > > > >> > Miguel > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > ------------------------------- > > > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > >> > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > >> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------- > > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > >> the > > > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------- > > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > the > > > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > > > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > >> Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.89/2539 - Release > Date: > > > >> 12/02/09 > > > >> 19:43:00 > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------- > > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > the > > > >> quotes in the subject > > > >> and the body of the message > > > >> > > > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > > > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > >> Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release > Date: > > > >> 12/02/09 > > > >> 19:43:00 > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------- > > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > the > > > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject > > and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

http://www.ceha-madeira.net/elucidario/c/can9.htm

On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 4:57 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > Here, on Francisco it would be interesting to find where Gabriel Vaz or > Maria de Cairos come from. They marry in Camacha. In his marriage and he > doesn't use D'Orta and then suddenly at his son's he his a D'Orta. Is it > possible it is just that he had a "horta"? > Well, theoretically yes. It could be possible that he was named D'Orta because he had an Horta. But an horta is a small and trivial thing, and he was a Lavrador. He had to be a wealthy Lavrador since he married a Viana, from nobility. I don't see that the Vianas, proud owners of the best marble tomb in Madeira, would give away a daughter to a guy that had an Horta. The Vianas had high status on earth and on heavens! > We have had already had a conversation on the Sousas. Jerónimo is my 11th, > from Azores and so on. It is our Irish link! > > Irish? How come? refresh me, please, because it's my favourite country, apart from Portugal ; - )) > I do have a Vitória Miranda married to Marcos Francisco de Braga in 1567. > This is through my Fernandes Veloza main branch. > > Marcos must be of the real Bragas, because that´s a name (Marcos) they used a lot. Some Marques, may come from one of the Marcos de Braga. So do you have a connection with Diogo Cão, the navigator (thorugh the Bragas) ? Vitória either is from the Correias Mirandas, or from the Lourenço de Miranda branch, I suppose. > As you know I too, Cecce and others link to Mundos de Nóbrega. Yes, I know. It is great to find so many cousins. > Terras de Nóbrega is a beautiful place, at least on the internet site. I > shall visit itr one of these days. FDo you have any money to restore the > castle? If the Nóbregas are from there, noblesse oblige, we have to help to restore that castle ; -)) > I like the Mundos name. In fact, there are Nóbregas all over the world now! > Yes. It was a prophetic name. > > The Vianas must come from Viana do Castelo. Been there. Liked the place. > > On Madelena Jorge. It says she was from the Fragas, the one married in 1622 > to Pedro Gonçalves. Her parents were Jorge Dias and Catarina de Castro > (Caniço, 1585). Jorge's parents are Gonçalo Jorge and Agueda Dias. That's on spot. Is what I have too. I still have to figure out from where this Fragas came to madeira, because it's nor a common name. > Can't find that certificate. Any help is most welcome! By the way, Gonçalo > is a "mestre d'açucar. Catarina's parents are Pedro Afonso, he was a > "lavrador" and seemed to have married twice, and Maria Alves. I only know > Maria's mother a widow- Gregória Martins. > Yes- Gonçalo is the responsible for my blood liking to run with rum. A very guilty man. Has spoiled generations ; -)) > Any links here to Porto Santo. Perhaps through Martins? > I don't know, though... Martins does'nt sound to me as a typical Portosantense name. But... regards, Miguel > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:27 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > José, > > He is the same Francisco. Sometimes name were shortened > Anyway the d'Orta name puzzles me. There are the Hurtere, Flemish, from > Açores (which gave the name to cidade da Horta), and the Horta, from Spain. > Could he be from Açores ? From the Hurtere branch? Never heard someone > raising this question before. May be I am 100% wrong. > > The Sás or Sousas e Sás from Caniço are, in part Sousas (by way of > Jerónimo > de Sousa, the trunk of that line) from Açores. I can't remember now their > Sá > name origin. It was a mighty name then, not common, though there were some > Sás commoners and a few Sás nobles. Anyway a noble having Sá as a name > would > use it proudly. Like the Bettencourts de Sá did. > Curuosly the Sás originate in Porto (Portugal) from bourgeois origins, > around the mid 14 th century. So it's not that old. (A really old name in > Portugal is a name existing before 1143, before King Afonso Henriques > declared independence from Castille) when Portugal was still Comitat > Portucalensis. > > I also have lots of Corrêas de Miranda (from Caniço) , coming from the > first > Corrêa de Miranda settler. Do you have them too? Actually my g.grand mother > was Eulália de Jesus Corrêa de Miranda, her godfather was Morgado Jacinto > de > Freitas Lomelino, still a relative. She married a Nóbrega from the line of > Mundos da Nóbrega. (They say Mundos name was Edmundo. It's quite probable. > But I like the way it stayed for posterity : Mundos. The translation in > English, of course, is "Worlds". Quite meaningful. At least I give it a lot > of meaning, though Mundos was illiterate. I have his signature, a typical > cross. ) > > The point about the origin of the Nóbrega surname is: was Nóbrega a > toponymic, or not? In short , did the first Madeira Nóbrega came from the > "Terras de Nóbrega", or did they carry the name Nóbrega? In the later case > they could be a branch of the Aboim. But I have not seen this problem > satisfactorily solved. One day, if Nóbrega is an added patronymic then wi > will have to dive in the Gonçalves of Terras de Anóbrega - another way of > saying Nóbrega. And that's for sure cnossian! > > The Regos seems to be from Algarve. The trunk of the Vianas, according to > primo Clode, was Afonso Viana, from Caniço. > > >From him was descended João de Viana, Fidalgo Escudeiro da Casa Real, > "whose > descendants mixed with the Cairos from Caniço".(source: Clode. FMPS pg > 333). > > The Vianas in that time were very rich, had a marble tomb, much envied, > because they were perhaps the only ones in Madeira to afford such a luxury. > (There is no marble in Madeira). Other noble families wanted to have a > marble tomb " na feissão da de João de Vianna) (similar to the marble tom > of > the magnífico Viana). > > Don' forget ti tell me about your Dias Saldanha. > > Mine were Manuel Dias Saldanha m. Maria de Andrada ( from the Ferreira > Noronhas). His parents were Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. (m. > around 162...) > Perdo Dias Saldanha was a natural son of Diogo Annes Saldanha (ouvidor de > Machico) and Concórdia Fernandes. (I suppose Concórdia was a black woman, > or > mestiça. But I don't know why I suppose so. Perhaps Paulo can shed some > light in here* She was Diogo's "amiga". (lovely expression for lover.) > Ana Henriques, obviously, interests me. Now the Henriques name, being a > patronymic, is a hard bone to crunch. Unfortunately there is no marriage > certificate for Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. > > The interesting thing is to find Saldanhas in Madeira, at an early time. > Almost after the first settlement. I am almost sure . due to their status, > that they were from the Saldanhas that came to Portugal from Spain. > > And as I lived quite near Praça do Saldanha , in Lisbon ( Duke of Saldanha > Square) during many years, this name interests me a lot. I also have > friends > with that name, direct descendants of the first Saldanhas who came to > Portugal. > > About Madalena Jorge, i have scores of Jorges too. Some, were from Porto > Santo, descendants of Pedro Jorge (From the terrible mess of the mid 16 th > Calaças). Others from Gaula, and have nothing to do with the former. And > still others like BeatrizJorge married to Manuel Afonso, (16 th century) > that I can't track. > > > Regards, > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Well, You proibably know already all that are available, You have Felsiberto, HHN, Clode, and FMPS Clode and Meneses and Morgado Pereira de Agrela. Geneall has some info about Madeira genealogies. And the personal best Madeiran genealogies are to be found in some of our list colleagues I'll try to find out the Travassos in Pereira de Agrela. Once I looked for them and it had valuable and original info about them. At one point some a Travassos (from 15th century) whose alcunha was " O Pequenininho) was the Carcereiro, the man in charge of Porto Santo prison. A friend, a nobleman was quite schocked to see him in such a station. What you, from the noble Travassos, in such a terrible job? The Pequenininho had some flourished and philosophical. answer- I don't recall the terms. But it was somnething like: " Alas my good friend, such is life that, though God forbid, one day you may be in the same position as myself." To be called Pequenininho- - is because he was very very small in stature, but not in dignity. Miguel On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Janette Chun <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks Miguel. I have a some information on the Calacas and Ornellas. > Any pointers on other resources for informaton on the Texeiras, > Castros, etc. ? > > Janette > On 3-Dec-09, at 7:49 AM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: > > > Bingo! I was sure he was from Porto Santo. He probably connects with > > the > > first Travassos from Porto Santo. > > > > And so with the Teixeiras, Calaças, Castros, Mendonças. Vasconcelos > > and > > Ornelas. > > > > > > regards, > > Miguel > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Janette Chun <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > >> Hi Miguel, > >> > >> 1600s - the marriage date is 1649 > >> > >> Manuel Travassos Isabel de Góis Porto Santo 1649 > >> 991 > >> 26 > >> > >> Thanks. > >> Janette > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 3-Dec-09, at 4:47 AM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: > >> > >>> Hello Janette, > >>> > >>>> From which year is he? > >>> > >>> The name is not very common. It is very ancient. It is a toponymic. > >>> And the > >>> Travassos from the XVI th century were considered as nobility. > >>> > >>> regards, > >>> > >>> Miguel > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 9:10 AM, Janette Chun <[email protected]> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> With the invaluable help of Luis Beal, I now have an ancestor named > >>>> Manuel Travassos. I've never come across this last name before - > >>>> and > >>>> a quick internet search revealed that there are quite a few. Does > >>>> anyone know the origins of this name? Is it common in Madeira? > >>>> > >>>> Janette > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 2-Dec-09, at 9:40 PM, Janette Chun wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Thanks Luis! No not gothic yet....LOL > >>>>> > >>>>> I will email the pdf files to the address you provided. Thanks > >>>>> again. > >>>>> Janette > >>>>> > >>>>> On 2-Dec-09, at 10:14 AM, Luis Beal wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> That was me. Just e-mail an attachment to [email protected] > >>>>>> 1600's I hope it isn't gothic cause that I can't read :) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Luis Beal > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain > >>>>>> perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless > >>>>>> it is woven into the life of our ancestors." > >>>>>> Cicero, Roman orator > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>> From: Janette Chun <[email protected]> > >>>>>> To: PRT-MADEIRA <[email protected]> > >>>>>> Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 9:27:18 AM > >>>>>> Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Help reading certificates > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hello all, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I've enjoyed the exchange of emails over the last few weeks. > >>>>>> Great to > >>>>>> see the forum active again. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I recall reading an offer to help read some certificates but > >>>>>> can't > >>>>>> remember who : ( - old age! I recently received two > >>>>>> certificates > >>>>>> from the 1600s which are a little difficult to decipher - I think > >>>>>> I've > >>>>>> sort of figured it out, but would welcome a second opinion as I'm > >>>>>> not > >>>>>> familiar with some of the abbreviations. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Janette Chun > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> [email protected] > >>>>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > >>>>>> the body of the message > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> [email protected] > >>>>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > >>>>>> the body of the message > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >>>> without the > >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] > >>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > >>> the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > > the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I don't know nothing about them ; - ( Have you tried an Açores list? Anyway, according to good ol' Clode, there was one Pedro de Figueiró, from Ilha do Faial (Açores), son of João Figueiró and Aldonça Fernandes, who went to madeira in 1500. he married Guiomar Antunes and died Jan, 245, 1541. They had issue. Rs, Miguel Perhaps you can ask for his death certificate. On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 3:51 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > my oldest ancestor Barnabe Utra is a total mistery. Nobody knows where he > comes from and whom he married. the only things known are that he died in > madeira and his daughter is called violante utra that married manuel de > figueiro (possibly also from azores) > > anyone can shed a light on this? > > Thank you > > Leandro > > > In a message dated 12/3/2009 4:45:46 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Yes, they became Utra, Dutra and also Horta. And they founded Horta. I > have > some Dutra friends too. > > Miguel > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 3:36 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > hey miguel...the Van Hurtere family from azores became Utra or Dutra. Im > > descendant of them. never heard before the hurtere becoming horta. > Although > > they founded the city of horta in the island of faial in the azores > > > > > > In a message dated 12/3/2009 4:34:19 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > José, > > > > He is the same Francisco. Sometimes name were shortened > > Anyway the d'Orta name puzzles me. There are the Hurtere, Flemish, from > > Açores (which gave the name to cidade da Horta), and the Horta, from > > Spain. > > Could he be from Açores ? From the Hurtere branch? Never heard someone > > raising this question before. May be I am 100% wrong. > > > > The Sás or Sousas e Sás from Caniço are, in part Sousas (by way of > > Jerónimo > > de Sousa, the trunk of that line) from Açores. I can't remember now > their > > Sá > > name origin. It was a mighty name then, not common, though there were > some > > Sás commoners and a few Sás nobles. Anyway a noble having Sá as a name > > would > > use it proudly. Like the Bettencourts de Sá did. > > Curuosly the Sás originate in Porto (Portugal) from bourgeois origins, > > around the mid 14 th century. So it's not that old. (A really old name > in > > Portugal is a name existing before 1143, before King Afonso Henriques > > declared independence from Castille) when Portugal was still Comitat > > Portucalensis. > > > > I also have lots of Corrêas de Miranda (from Caniço) , coming from the > > first > > Corrêa de Miranda settler. Do you have them too? Actually my g.grand > > mother > > was Eulália de Jesus Corrêa de Miranda, her godfather was Morgado > Jacinto > > de > > Freitas Lomelino, still a relative. She married a Nóbrega from the line > of > > Mundos da Nóbrega. (They say Mundos name was Edmundo. It's quite > probable. > > But I like the way it stayed for posterity : Mundos. The translation in > > English, of course, is "Worlds". Quite meaningful. At least I give it a > > lot > > of meaning, though Mundos was illiterate. I have his signature, a > typical > > cross. ) > > > > The point about the origin of the Nóbrega surname is: was Nóbrega a > > toponymic, or not? In short , did the first Madeira Nóbrega came from > the > > "Terras de Nóbrega", or did they carry the name Nóbrega? In the later > case > > they could be a branch of the Aboim. But I have not seen this problem > > satisfactorily solved. One day, if Nóbrega is an added patronymic then > wi > > will have to dive in the Gonçalves of Terras de Anóbrega - another way > of > > saying Nóbrega. And that's for sure cnossian! > > > > The Regos seems to be from Algarve. The trunk of the Vianas, according > to > > primo Clode, was Afonso Viana, from Caniço. > > > > >From him was descended João de Viana, Fidalgo Escudeiro da Casa Real, > > "whose > > descendants mixed with the Cairos from Caniço".(source: Clode. FMPS pg > > 333). > > > > The Vianas in that time were very rich, had a marble tomb, much envied, > > because they were perhaps the only ones in Madeira to afford such a > > luxury. > > (There is no marble in Madeira). Other noble families wanted to have a > > marble tomb " na feissão da de João de Vianna) (similar to the marble > tom > > of > > the magnífico Viana). > > > > Don' forget ti tell me about your Dias Saldanha. > > > > Mine were Manuel Dias Saldanha m. Maria de Andrada ( from the Ferreira > > Noronhas). His parents were Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. (m. > > around 162...) > > Perdo Dias Saldanha was a natural son of Diogo Annes Saldanha (ouvidor > de > > Machico) and Concórdia Fernandes. (I suppose Concórdia was a black > woman, > > or > > mestiça. But I don't know why I suppose so. Perhaps Paulo can shed some > > light in here* She was Diogo's "amiga". (lovely expression for lover.) > > Ana Henriques, obviously, interests me. Now the Henriques name, being > a > > patronymic, is a hard bone to crunch. Unfortunately there is no > marriage > > certificate for Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. > > > > The interesting thing is to find Saldanhas in Madeira, at an early > time. > > Almost after the first settlement. I am almost sure . due to their > status, > > that they were from the Saldanhas that came to Portugal from Spain. > > > > And as I lived quite near Praça do Saldanha , in Lisbon ( Duke of > Saldanha > > Square) during many years, this name interests me a lot. I also have > > friends > > with that name, direct descendants of the first Saldanhas who came to > > Portugal. > > > > About Madalena Jorge, i have scores of Jorges too. Some, were from > Porto > > Santo, descendants of Pedro Jorge (From the terrible mess of the mid 16 > th > > Calaças). Others from Gaula, and have nothing to do with the former. > And > > still others like BeatrizJorge married to Manuel Afonso, (16 th > century) > > that I can't track. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Miguel, > > > I have Francisco's certificate and it only uses de Cairos (Caniço, > > 1592, > > > 915 A, 41). He marries Ines de Viana, daughter of Vasco Fernandes do > > Rego > > > and Beatriz de Viana. On his son's certificate Manuel de Viana > (Cairos) > > his > > > name is listed as Francisco de Cairos d'orta, lavrador. Manuel > married > > > Antónia de Sá (Caniço, 1632, 915A, 100v. What is the difference here? > > > > > > On Joana, I descend a couple of times from Gabriel de Nóbrega, but I > am > > not > > > aware yet that is also includes this line. I am full of Nóbregas and > I > > can't > > > keep track of them all! One of my links is through a daughter > Madalena > > Jorge > > > who marries António Ferreira in 1685. > > > > > > José > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:46 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > Miguel > > > Fine! It's borra. Remember I left very young. But the other meaning > are > > > still correct. > > > > > > It's actually Francisco d'Orta. He marries Ines de Viana, and as I > > > mentioned is one of the Vaz Cairos. > > > Yes Francisca is Ocanha because I also have that certificate which is > > not > > > very readable. Everything else correct as you say. That is what I > have. > > > I will get back to you on Saldanha and Joana de Nóbrega. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > José > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:37 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 6:42 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Miguel, > > > > As you know I am a Fernandes Veloza, a name that my maternal > > grandfathers > > > > carried through for about 250 years. The Veloza name came through a > > > maternal > > > > line, Ana Cristina who married my great (5) grandfather in 1746. My > > > maternal > > > > grandfather was the only son in that branch. He only had two > > daughters, > > > but > > > > managed to register my mother with the Fernandes Veloza name. The > last > > > one! > > > > So, I am assuming that this Manuel was at the very least a cousin. > As > > you > > > > know they were Lobatos, from Francisco Esteves Lobato. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the Cairos, Francisco de Cairos da Orta marries in Caniço and > his > > my > > > > great (10) grandfather. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is he Cairos de Orta or Cairos da Orta? > > > > > > > > > > > > > His mother was a Cairos and she married in camacha. it seems that > > Clode > > > > list 4 or 5 lines for Cairos, but to me they all seem to connect. > > > > > > > > > As a matter of fact he refers 6 lines of Cairos. The last one being > > Cairos > > > Vaz, which is a sub-branch of the main Cairos trunk. > > > > > > I also believe that all the Cairos branches are connected. They are > > > several > > > branches of the same trunk. > > > > > > > > > > > > > These Cairos he seems to call them Vaz Cairos, for Maria Cairos > > marries > > > > Gabriel Vaz. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Many Cairos settled in Caniço, or they became many. They had status > > and > > > > some retained their status. But on a land based society where the > > oldest > > > son > > > > for the most part inherited the land, the other children soon lost > > > status, > > > > and in one or two generations that name was the only thing that > > remained > > > of > > > > that high status. > > > > Of course we also share the Nóbrega line. I would have to trust the > > > > published genealogies to link to Fernão Gonçalves de Nóbrega, but I > > > > definitely descend from Gabriel de Nóbrega married to Francisca > Cunha > > > around > > > > 1615. > > > > > > > > > Francisca is not Cunham she is de Ocanha, I have a marriage > certificate > > > from > > > Caniço where she appears. She is certainly connected to the Ocanha > (or > > > Canhas) family referred by HHN. Gabriel is the son of Fernão > Gonçalves > > de > > > Nórega. I have his marriage certificate. And Fernão is the son of > Mundos > > de > > > Nóbrega. > > > > > > Fernão's wife Ana Pires is the dau. of Vitório Pires and Filipa do > > Quintal > > > de Matos. The LDS forum gives her as descendant of the Crés. > > > > > > > > > > > > > He was my great(8) grandfather. This Joana must be a > granddaughter. > > > > > > > > > > She is a g.g. grandaughter. > > > > > > 0.1. Mundos de Nóbrega > > > 1. Gabriel m. Francisca d'Ocanha > > > 1.2. Gabriel de Nóbrega m. Maria Joirge dau of Pedro Gonçalves and > > Madalena > > > Jorge (from the Fragas) > > > 1.3. Francisca de Nóbrega m. Matias de Amdrada > > > 1.4 Joana de Nóbrega m. Francisco de Gouveia > > > 1.4. Mariana de Nóbrega m, Manuel Gomes de Andrada > > > > > > > > > > > I also have a Dias Saldanha in the late 1500's. > > > > > > > > > > Which one? > > > > > > > > > > Some Noronhas also married into my family, but they were women. > > > > > > > > > Who were they? There are other Noronhas apart from Manuel de Noronha, > > > though > > > they all come from the same source: D. Alfonso Henriques, Count of > Gijón > > > and > > > Noroña, son of D. Henrique III, King of Castille. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure we can link these Noronhas to Manuel de Noronha. I haven't > > seen > > > > anything that links them to the Caniço Noronha. I didn't know > Manuel > > was > > > a > > > > poet. Never read any of his poems or songs. > > > > > > > > > They're on line. Visconde do Porto da Cruz made a book referring all > > > remarkable Madeirans. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I knew" him through Count Landi who doesn't mention anything about > his > > > > poetry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Porrada existed in my times. Porra had other meanings in Madeira, > > > including > > > > the thin line foamy top of newly made wine. > > > > > > > > > Is'nt that "borra?" > > > > > > > > > > But there were others! > > > > > > > > Indeed ; -))) > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > José > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > > Henriques > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:17 PM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > > > José, > > > > > > > > Maria de Jesus m. 1784 Manuel Fernandes Veloza, was the dau. of > Manuel > > > > Gomes > > > > de Andrada m. 1744 Mariana de Nóbrega. (see below) 1.1. > > > > > > > > > > > > Manuel Gomes de Andrada was the son of Simão Gomes ( descendant of > the > > > João > > > > Marques and Catarina Alves, the trunk of the Marques Arrais) and > > Mariana > > > de > > > > Andrade, dau, of António de Andrade Barreto m. 1691 Domingas da > Costa. > > > > > > > > António de Andrade Barreto was the son of Manuel Fernandes Camacho > and > > > > Maria > > > > de Andrade (1650, S. Gonçalo, I suppose) (Apart from the Ferreiras > > "Casta > > > > grande" we have also the "Fernandes Camacho "Casta grande" - they > were > > as > > > > many as the Ferreira, at least.) > > > > Domingas da Costa or Domingas Gomes da Costa was the dau. of Manuel > de > > > > Cairos and Maria Gomes. (1662, S. Pedro) > > > > > > > > > > > > I have more Cairos from other sides. (From the first Cairos from > > Madeira) > > > > Most mysterious name! It seems no one knows for sure where that > name > > came > > > > from. At least of all the classic genealogists from Madeira no one > > seems > > > to > > > > know precisely the origin of that name. They gave hints: perhaps a > > > > toponymic > > > > from a village called Cairos somewhere in the North of Portugal. > But, > > as > > > > far > > > > as I know, it's not confirmed, > > > > > > > > Only thing known is that they were an old family, present since the > 15 > > th > > > > century. There was one Constantino de Cairos who was a knight. And > > apart > > > of > > > > their division in Cairos de Orta, Cairos Vaz and Cairos Gonçalves, > and > > > that > > > > they are not to be confounded with Caires (of french origin) - > though > > > some > > > > Cairos wrote Caires, I still don't know much about them. Yes, I > know > > they > > > > settled - at least some of them - in Caniço. They were lavradores, > > most > > > of > > > > them. But lavradores with some status. > > > > > > > > 1.1. Mariana de Nóbrega, dau of Francisco de Gouveia and Joana de > > Nóbrega > > > > (m. 1726) has an interesting ascendancy tree, > > > > > > > > > > > > >From her father side she descends from Correias de Andrade ( from > S. > > > > Martinho,- linked to the old Andrades do Arco? ) and the "famous" > > Pedro > > > > Gonçalves and Margarida de Góis. From her mother side she descends > > from > > > the > > > > oldest Nóbregas . our well known Mundos de Nóbrega, and Fernão > > Gonçalves > > > de > > > > Nóbrega (the biggest slave owner of Madeira, according to Livro das > > > > Famílias > > > > de Gaula - is that true? If it is you and I and many others have a > lot > > of > > > > bad family karma to burn. Personally I like black people a lot and > I > > am > > > not > > > > racist at all. I even think we Portuguese are half Africans, that's > > why > > > we > > > > have all these problems integrating Europe) and if you see the > > geography > > > we > > > > are separated by two inches of water from Africa.), and also from > the > > > > Saldanhas of Madeira and the Noronha from Caniço. (who have > > legitimately, > > > I > > > > believe, all the little blue golden green and so on balls in > geneall > > ; > > > > -))) > > > > > > > > These Saldanhas from Madeira are another mystery. It seems > (according > > to > > > > the > > > > writer Gonalo de Aguiar in "Coisas da Madeira" and other authors) > that > > > they > > > > were noble and rich. I can't link them with the old Saldanhas > from > > > > Portugal. > > > > Though they have the same name and surnames - Diogo and João as > their > > > > possible Portuguese ancestors. Now, Saldanha in the 15 th century > was > > a > > > > recent name in Portugal. It came from Spain, through the > descendants > > of > > > > Diogo Lopez de Saldanha, a Spanish, that for political reasons had > to > > > flee > > > > from Spain to Portugal. > > > > I descend from Diogo Ennes Saldanha and his black or coloured > > mistress, > > > > Concórdia Fernandes. > > > > > > > > The Noronhas from Caniço are well known. The great thing from my > point > > of > > > > view is that they descend from Manuel de Noronha , "poeta do > > > Cancioneiro". > > > > (Poet from the "Cancioneiro". The Cancioneiro was probably the > first > > > > anthology of poetry to be made in Portugal. 16 th century. Manuel > de > > > > Noronha > > > > was also a Câmara, son of João Gonçalves da Cãmara, 2nd Capitão > > Donatário > > > > do > > > > Funchal. O Porrinha! > > > > For those who don't know, already in that time madeirna were quick > to > > > > baptize everyone with an alcunha. The 2nd Capitão donatário (a kind > of > > > King > > > > of Madeira) was also the Supreme Judge or Justice. And he loved to > > > > administer it! He really did. And to reinforce the adminstration of > > > Justice > > > > he carried a big stick with him all the time. ( originally "dar > > porrada" > > > in > > > > Portugal means to beat someone with a Porra, a big wooden stick. We > > still > > > > say porra! a lot and "porreiro" meaning cute even more.) He > > experimented, > > > > vigorously it seems, his stick on the back of some criminals or > > > > transgressors. hence his alcunha, diminutive by antinomy, o > Porrinha. > > But > > > > his "porrinha" was indeed a big Porra, perhaps skinned with some > > metal. > > > > > > > > Well, these ancestors who provide a stream of stories are really > > > precious. > > > > Moreover these Noronhas link with a turbulent royal Castillian > > dinasty, > > > the > > > > Trastamaras - and there you dive in in centuries of pure greek > > tragedy, > > > > full > > > > of episodes, treasons. battles, crimes and fratricides for all > tastes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject > > and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Bingo! I was sure he was from Porto Santo. He probably connects with the first Travassos from Porto Santo. And so with the Teixeiras, Calaças, Castros, Mendonças. Vasconcelos and Ornelas. regards, Miguel On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Janette Chun <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Miguel, > > 1600s - the marriage date is 1649 > > Manuel Travassos Isabel de Góis Porto Santo 1649 991 > 26 > > Thanks. > Janette > > > > > On 3-Dec-09, at 4:47 AM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: > > > Hello Janette, > > > >> From which year is he? > > > > The name is not very common. It is very ancient. It is a toponymic. > > And the > > Travassos from the XVI th century were considered as nobility. > > > > regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 9:10 AM, Janette Chun <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > >> With the invaluable help of Luis Beal, I now have an ancestor named > >> Manuel Travassos. I've never come across this last name before - > >> and > >> a quick internet search revealed that there are quite a few. Does > >> anyone know the origins of this name? Is it common in Madeira? > >> > >> Janette > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 2-Dec-09, at 9:40 PM, Janette Chun wrote: > >> > >>> Thanks Luis! No not gothic yet....LOL > >>> > >>> I will email the pdf files to the address you provided. Thanks > >>> again. > >>> Janette > >>> > >>> On 2-Dec-09, at 10:14 AM, Luis Beal wrote: > >>> > >>>> That was me. Just e-mail an attachment to [email protected] > >>>> 1600's I hope it isn't gothic cause that I can't read :) > >>>> > >>>> Luis Beal > >>>> > >>>> "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain > >>>> perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless > >>>> it is woven into the life of our ancestors." > >>>> Cicero, Roman orator > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> From: Janette Chun <[email protected]> > >>>> To: PRT-MADEIRA <[email protected]> > >>>> Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 9:27:18 AM > >>>> Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Help reading certificates > >>>> > >>>> Hello all, > >>>> > >>>> I've enjoyed the exchange of emails over the last few weeks. > >>>> Great to > >>>> see the forum active again. > >>>> > >>>> I recall reading an offer to help read some certificates but can't > >>>> remember who : ( - old age! I recently received two certificates > >>>> from the 1600s which are a little difficult to decipher - I think > >>>> I've > >>>> sort of figured it out, but would welcome a second opinion as I'm > >>>> not > >>>> familiar with some of the abbreviations. > >>>> > >>>> Thanks! > >>>> > >>>> Janette Chun > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] > >>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > >>>> the body of the message > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] > >>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > >>>> the body of the message > >>> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > > the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Yes, they became Utra, Dutra and also Horta. And they founded Horta. I have some Dutra friends too. Miguel On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 3:36 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > hey miguel...the Van Hurtere family from azores became Utra or Dutra. Im > descendant of them. never heard before the hurtere becoming horta. Although > they founded the city of horta in the island of faial in the azores > > > In a message dated 12/3/2009 4:34:19 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > José, > > He is the same Francisco. Sometimes name were shortened > Anyway the d'Orta name puzzles me. There are the Hurtere, Flemish, from > Açores (which gave the name to cidade da Horta), and the Horta, from > Spain. > Could he be from Açores ? From the Hurtere branch? Never heard someone > raising this question before. May be I am 100% wrong. > > The Sás or Sousas e Sás from Caniço are, in part Sousas (by way of > Jerónimo > de Sousa, the trunk of that line) from Açores. I can't remember now their > Sá > name origin. It was a mighty name then, not common, though there were some > Sás commoners and a few Sás nobles. Anyway a noble having Sá as a name > would > use it proudly. Like the Bettencourts de Sá did. > Curuosly the Sás originate in Porto (Portugal) from bourgeois origins, > around the mid 14 th century. So it's not that old. (A really old name in > Portugal is a name existing before 1143, before King Afonso Henriques > declared independence from Castille) when Portugal was still Comitat > Portucalensis. > > I also have lots of Corrêas de Miranda (from Caniço) , coming from the > first > Corrêa de Miranda settler. Do you have them too? Actually my g.grand > mother > was Eulália de Jesus Corrêa de Miranda, her godfather was Morgado Jacinto > de > Freitas Lomelino, still a relative. She married a Nóbrega from the line of > Mundos da Nóbrega. (They say Mundos name was Edmundo. It's quite probable. > But I like the way it stayed for posterity : Mundos. The translation in > English, of course, is "Worlds". Quite meaningful. At least I give it a > lot > of meaning, though Mundos was illiterate. I have his signature, a typical > cross. ) > > The point about the origin of the Nóbrega surname is: was Nóbrega a > toponymic, or not? In short , did the first Madeira Nóbrega came from the > "Terras de Nóbrega", or did they carry the name Nóbrega? In the later case > they could be a branch of the Aboim. But I have not seen this problem > satisfactorily solved. One day, if Nóbrega is an added patronymic then wi > will have to dive in the Gonçalves of Terras de Anóbrega - another way of > saying Nóbrega. And that's for sure cnossian! > > The Regos seems to be from Algarve. The trunk of the Vianas, according to > primo Clode, was Afonso Viana, from Caniço. > > >From him was descended João de Viana, Fidalgo Escudeiro da Casa Real, > "whose > descendants mixed with the Cairos from Caniço".(source: Clode. FMPS pg > 333). > > The Vianas in that time were very rich, had a marble tomb, much envied, > because they were perhaps the only ones in Madeira to afford such a > luxury. > (There is no marble in Madeira). Other noble families wanted to have a > marble tomb " na feissão da de João de Vianna) (similar to the marble tom > of > the magnífico Viana). > > Don' forget ti tell me about your Dias Saldanha. > > Mine were Manuel Dias Saldanha m. Maria de Andrada ( from the Ferreira > Noronhas). His parents were Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. (m. > around 162...) > Perdo Dias Saldanha was a natural son of Diogo Annes Saldanha (ouvidor de > Machico) and Concórdia Fernandes. (I suppose Concórdia was a black woman, > or > mestiça. But I don't know why I suppose so. Perhaps Paulo can shed some > light in here* She was Diogo's "amiga". (lovely expression for lover.) > Ana Henriques, obviously, interests me. Now the Henriques name, being a > patronymic, is a hard bone to crunch. Unfortunately there is no marriage > certificate for Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. > > The interesting thing is to find Saldanhas in Madeira, at an early time. > Almost after the first settlement. I am almost sure . due to their status, > that they were from the Saldanhas that came to Portugal from Spain. > > And as I lived quite near Praça do Saldanha , in Lisbon ( Duke of Saldanha > Square) during many years, this name interests me a lot. I also have > friends > with that name, direct descendants of the first Saldanhas who came to > Portugal. > > About Madalena Jorge, i have scores of Jorges too. Some, were from Porto > Santo, descendants of Pedro Jorge (From the terrible mess of the mid 16 th > Calaças). Others from Gaula, and have nothing to do with the former. And > still others like BeatrizJorge married to Manuel Afonso, (16 th century) > that I can't track. > > > Regards, > > Miguel > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel, > > I have Francisco's certificate and it only uses de Cairos (Caniço, > 1592, > > 915 A, 41). He marries Ines de Viana, daughter of Vasco Fernandes do > Rego > > and Beatriz de Viana. On his son's certificate Manuel de Viana (Cairos) > his > > name is listed as Francisco de Cairos d'orta, lavrador. Manuel married > > Antónia de Sá (Caniço, 1632, 915A, 100v. What is the difference here? > > > > On Joana, I descend a couple of times from Gabriel de Nóbrega, but I am > not > > aware yet that is also includes this line. I am full of Nóbregas and I > can't > > keep track of them all! One of my links is through a daughter Madalena > Jorge > > who marries António Ferreira in 1685. > > > > José > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose > > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:46 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > Miguel > > Fine! It's borra. Remember I left very young. But the other meaning are > > still correct. > > > > It's actually Francisco d'Orta. He marries Ines de Viana, and as I > > mentioned is one of the Vaz Cairos. > > Yes Francisca is Ocanha because I also have that certificate which is > not > > very readable. Everything else correct as you say. That is what I have. > > I will get back to you on Saldanha and Joana de Nóbrega. > > > > Cheers, > > José > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:37 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 6:42 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Miguel, > > > As you know I am a Fernandes Veloza, a name that my maternal > grandfathers > > > carried through for about 250 years. The Veloza name came through a > > maternal > > > line, Ana Cristina who married my great (5) grandfather in 1746. My > > maternal > > > grandfather was the only son in that branch. He only had two > daughters, > > but > > > managed to register my mother with the Fernandes Veloza name. The last > > one! > > > So, I am assuming that this Manuel was at the very least a cousin. As > you > > > know they were Lobatos, from Francisco Esteves Lobato. > > > > > > > > > > > > On the Cairos, Francisco de Cairos da Orta marries in Caniço and his > my > > > great (10) grandfather. > > > > > > > > > > Is he Cairos de Orta or Cairos da Orta? > > > > > > > > > His mother was a Cairos and she married in camacha. it seems that > Clode > > > list 4 or 5 lines for Cairos, but to me they all seem to connect. > > > > > > As a matter of fact he refers 6 lines of Cairos. The last one being > Cairos > > Vaz, which is a sub-branch of the main Cairos trunk. > > > > I also believe that all the Cairos branches are connected. They are > > several > > branches of the same trunk. > > > > > > > > > These Cairos he seems to call them Vaz Cairos, for Maria Cairos > marries > > > Gabriel Vaz. > > > > > > > > > > > > Many Cairos settled in Caniço, or they became many. They had status > and > > > some retained their status. But on a land based society where the > oldest > > son > > > for the most part inherited the land, the other children soon lost > > status, > > > and in one or two generations that name was the only thing that > remained > > of > > > that high status. > > > Of course we also share the Nóbrega line. I would have to trust the > > > published genealogies to link to Fernão Gonçalves de Nóbrega, but I > > > definitely descend from Gabriel de Nóbrega married to Francisca Cunha > > around > > > 1615. > > > > > > Francisca is not Cunham she is de Ocanha, I have a marriage certificate > > from > > Caniço where she appears. She is certainly connected to the Ocanha (or > > Canhas) family referred by HHN. Gabriel is the son of Fernão Gonçalves > de > > Nórega. I have his marriage certificate. And Fernão is the son of Mundos > de > > Nóbrega. > > > > Fernão's wife Ana Pires is the dau. of Vitório Pires and Filipa do > Quintal > > de Matos. The LDS forum gives her as descendant of the Crés. > > > > > > > > > He was my great(8) grandfather. This Joana must be a granddaughter. > > > > > > > She is a g.g. grandaughter. > > > > 0.1. Mundos de Nóbrega > > 1. Gabriel m. Francisca d'Ocanha > > 1.2. Gabriel de Nóbrega m. Maria Joirge dau of Pedro Gonçalves and > Madalena > > Jorge (from the Fragas) > > 1.3. Francisca de Nóbrega m. Matias de Amdrada > > 1.4 Joana de Nóbrega m. Francisco de Gouveia > > 1.4. Mariana de Nóbrega m, Manuel Gomes de Andrada > > > > > > > > I also have a Dias Saldanha in the late 1500's. > > > > > > > Which one? > > > > > > > Some Noronhas also married into my family, but they were women. > > > > > > Who were they? There are other Noronhas apart from Manuel de Noronha, > > though > > they all come from the same source: D. Alfonso Henriques, Count of Gijón > > and > > Noroña, son of D. Henrique III, King of Castille. > > > > > > > > > Not sure we can link these Noronhas to Manuel de Noronha. I haven't > seen > > > anything that links them to the Caniço Noronha. I didn't know Manuel > was > > a > > > poet. Never read any of his poems or songs. > > > > > > They're on line. Visconde do Porto da Cruz made a book referring all > > remarkable Madeirans. > > > > > > > > > I knew" him through Count Landi who doesn't mention anything about his > > > poetry. > > > > > > > > > > > > Porrada existed in my times. Porra had other meanings in Madeira, > > including > > > the thin line foamy top of newly made wine. > > > > > > Is'nt that "borra?" > > > > > > > But there were others! > > > > > > Indeed ; -))) > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > José > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:17 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > José, > > > > > > Maria de Jesus m. 1784 Manuel Fernandes Veloza, was the dau. of Manuel > > > Gomes > > > de Andrada m. 1744 Mariana de Nóbrega. (see below) 1.1. > > > > > > > > > Manuel Gomes de Andrada was the son of Simão Gomes ( descendant of the > > João > > > Marques and Catarina Alves, the trunk of the Marques Arrais) and > Mariana > > de > > > Andrade, dau, of António de Andrade Barreto m. 1691 Domingas da Costa. > > > > > > António de Andrade Barreto was the son of Manuel Fernandes Camacho and > > > Maria > > > de Andrade (1650, S. Gonçalo, I suppose) (Apart from the Ferreiras > "Casta > > > grande" we have also the "Fernandes Camacho "Casta grande" - they were > as > > > many as the Ferreira, at least.) > > > Domingas da Costa or Domingas Gomes da Costa was the dau. of Manuel de > > > Cairos and Maria Gomes. (1662, S. Pedro) > > > > > > > > > I have more Cairos from other sides. (From the first Cairos from > Madeira) > > > Most mysterious name! It seems no one knows for sure where that name > came > > > from. At least of all the classic genealogists from Madeira no one > seems > > to > > > know precisely the origin of that name. They gave hints: perhaps a > > > toponymic > > > from a village called Cairos somewhere in the North of Portugal. But, > as > > > far > > > as I know, it's not confirmed, > > > > > > Only thing known is that they were an old family, present since the 15 > th > > > century. There was one Constantino de Cairos who was a knight. And > apart > > of > > > their division in Cairos de Orta, Cairos Vaz and Cairos Gonçalves, and > > that > > > they are not to be confounded with Caires (of french origin) - though > > some > > > Cairos wrote Caires, I still don't know much about them. Yes, I know > they > > > settled - at least some of them - in Caniço. They were lavradores, > most > > of > > > them. But lavradores with some status. > > > > > > 1.1. Mariana de Nóbrega, dau of Francisco de Gouveia and Joana de > Nóbrega > > > (m. 1726) has an interesting ascendancy tree, > > > > > > > > > >From her father side she descends from Correias de Andrade ( from S. > > > Martinho,- linked to the old Andrades do Arco? ) and the "famous" > Pedro > > > Gonçalves and Margarida de Góis. From her mother side she descends > from > > the > > > oldest Nóbregas . our well known Mundos de Nóbrega, and Fernão > Gonçalves > > de > > > Nóbrega (the biggest slave owner of Madeira, according to Livro das > > > Famílias > > > de Gaula - is that true? If it is you and I and many others have a lot > of > > > bad family karma to burn. Personally I like black people a lot and I > am > > not > > > racist at all. I even think we Portuguese are half Africans, that's > why > > we > > > have all these problems integrating Europe) and if you see the > geography > > we > > > are separated by two inches of water from Africa.), and also from the > > > Saldanhas of Madeira and the Noronha from Caniço. (who have > legitimately, > > I > > > believe, all the little blue golden green and so on balls in geneall > ; > > > -))) > > > > > > These Saldanhas from Madeira are another mystery. It seems (according > to > > > the > > > writer Gonalo de Aguiar in "Coisas da Madeira" and other authors) that > > they > > > were noble and rich. I can't link them with the old Saldanhas from > > > Portugal. > > > Though they have the same name and surnames - Diogo and João as their > > > possible Portuguese ancestors. Now, Saldanha in the 15 th century was > a > > > recent name in Portugal. It came from Spain, through the descendants > of > > > Diogo Lopez de Saldanha, a Spanish, that for political reasons had to > > flee > > > from Spain to Portugal. > > > I descend from Diogo Ennes Saldanha and his black or coloured > mistress, > > > Concórdia Fernandes. > > > > > > The Noronhas from Caniço are well known. The great thing from my point > of > > > view is that they descend from Manuel de Noronha , "poeta do > > Cancioneiro". > > > (Poet from the "Cancioneiro". The Cancioneiro was probably the first > > > anthology of poetry to be made in Portugal. 16 th century. Manuel de > > > Noronha > > > was also a Câmara, son of João Gonçalves da Cãmara, 2nd Capitão > Donatário > > > do > > > Funchal. O Porrinha! > > > For those who don't know, already in that time madeirna were quick to > > > baptize everyone with an alcunha. The 2nd Capitão donatário (a kind of > > King > > > of Madeira) was also the Supreme Judge or Justice. And he loved to > > > administer it! He really did. And to reinforce the adminstration of > > Justice > > > he carried a big stick with him all the time. ( originally "dar > porrada" > > in > > > Portugal means to beat someone with a Porra, a big wooden stick. We > still > > > say porra! a lot and "porreiro" meaning cute even more.) He > experimented, > > > vigorously it seems, his stick on the back of some criminals or > > > transgressors. hence his alcunha, diminutive by antinomy, o Porrinha. > But > > > his "porrinha" was indeed a big Porra, perhaps skinned with some > metal. > > > > > > Well, these ancestors who provide a stream of stories are really > > precious. > > > Moreover these Noronhas link with a turbulent royal Castillian > dinasty, > > the > > > Trastamaras - and there you dive in in centuries of pure greek > tragedy, > > > full > > > of episodes, treasons. battles, crimes and fratricides for all tastes. > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Ok. José- So we have one more couple of ancestors in common! The name is Pedro. I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo Dias (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. Shall we meet for a coffee and a cup of manzanillo in Praça de Saldanha to celebrate? The Duke is still our cousin, after all ; -) Bitório was written according to the Northern (North of Portugal) accent. They still say baca for vaca, bino for vinho. And Bitório for Vitório or Vitorino. So he is Vitório or Vitorino Pires. Though the old and "wrong" (wrong for southerners) Bitório is endearing. Miguel On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > And... > > On Dias Saldanha ( can't decipher his first name) who married Ana > Henriques, but I can't find that certificate, his son is Diogo Dias who > marries Maria Ferreira in Caniço, 1651, 902, 225V. > > On Filipa Do Quintal, this is how it is spelled in their daughters' > marriage certificate (Ana Pires) how do you spell her husband's name? > Bitorio or is it an old writing for Victorino? > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 8:51 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > Miguel, > I have Francisco's certificate and it only uses de Cairos (Caniço, 1592, > 915 A, 41). He marries Ines de Viana, daughter of Vasco Fernandes do Rego > and Beatriz de Viana. On his son's certificate Manuel de Viana (Cairos) his > name is listed as Francisco de Cairos d'orta, lavrador. Manuel married > Antónia de Sá (Caniço, 1632, 915A, 100v. What is the difference here? > > On Joana, I descend a couple of times from Gabriel de Nóbrega, but I am not > aware yet that is also includes this line. I am full of Nóbregas and I can't > keep track of them all! One of my links is through a daughter Madalena Jorge > who marries António Ferreira in 1685. > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:46 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > Miguel > Fine! It's borra. Remember I left very young. But the other meaning are > still correct. > > It's actually Francisco d'Orta. He marries Ines de Viana, and as I > mentioned is one of the Vaz Cairos. > Yes Francisca is Ocanha because I also have that certificate which is not > very readable. Everything else correct as you say. That is what I have. > I will get back to you on Saldanha and Joana de Nóbrega. > > Cheers, > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:37 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 6:42 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel, > > As you know I am a Fernandes Veloza, a name that my maternal grandfathers > > carried through for about 250 years. The Veloza name came through a > maternal > > line, Ana Cristina who married my great (5) grandfather in 1746. My > maternal > > grandfather was the only son in that branch. He only had two daughters, > but > > managed to register my mother with the Fernandes Veloza name. The last > one! > > So, I am assuming that this Manuel was at the very least a cousin. As you > > know they were Lobatos, from Francisco Esteves Lobato. > > > > > > > On the Cairos, Francisco de Cairos da Orta marries in Caniço and his my > > great (10) grandfather. > > > > > Is he Cairos de Orta or Cairos da Orta? > > > > > His mother was a Cairos and she married in camacha. it seems that Clode > > list 4 or 5 lines for Cairos, but to me they all seem to connect. > > > As a matter of fact he refers 6 lines of Cairos. The last one being Cairos > Vaz, which is a sub-branch of the main Cairos trunk. > > I also believe that all the Cairos branches are connected. They are > several > branches of the same trunk. > > > > > These Cairos he seems to call them Vaz Cairos, for Maria Cairos marries > > Gabriel Vaz. > > > > > > > Many Cairos settled in Caniço, or they became many. They had status and > > some retained their status. But on a land based society where the oldest > son > > for the most part inherited the land, the other children soon lost > status, > > and in one or two generations that name was the only thing that remained > of > > that high status. > > Of course we also share the Nóbrega line. I would have to trust the > > published genealogies to link to Fernão Gonçalves de Nóbrega, but I > > definitely descend from Gabriel de Nóbrega married to Francisca Cunha > around > > 1615. > > > Francisca is not Cunham she is de Ocanha, I have a marriage certificate > from > Caniço where she appears. She is certainly connected to the Ocanha (or > Canhas) family referred by HHN. Gabriel is the son of Fernão Gonçalves de > Nórega. I have his marriage certificate. And Fernão is the son of Mundos de > Nóbrega. > > Fernão's wife Ana Pires is the dau. of Vitório Pires and Filipa do Quintal > de Matos. The LDS forum gives her as descendant of the Crés. > > > > > He was my great(8) grandfather. This Joana must be a granddaughter. > > > > She is a g.g. grandaughter. > > 0.1. Mundos de Nóbrega > 1. Gabriel m. Francisca d'Ocanha > 1.2. Gabriel de Nóbrega m. Maria Joirge dau of Pedro Gonçalves and Madalena > Jorge (from the Fragas) > 1.3. Francisca de Nóbrega m. Matias de Amdrada > 1.4 Joana de Nóbrega m. Francisco de Gouveia > 1.4. Mariana de Nóbrega m, Manuel Gomes de Andrada > > > > > I also have a Dias Saldanha in the late 1500's. > > > > Which one? > > > > Some Noronhas also married into my family, but they were women. > > > Who were they? There are other Noronhas apart from Manuel de Noronha, > though > they all come from the same source: D. Alfonso Henriques, Count of Gijón > and > Noroña, son of D. Henrique III, King of Castille. > > > > > Not sure we can link these Noronhas to Manuel de Noronha. I haven't seen > > anything that links them to the Caniço Noronha. I didn't know Manuel was > a > > poet. Never read any of his poems or songs. > > > They're on line. Visconde do Porto da Cruz made a book referring all > remarkable Madeirans. > > > > > I knew" him through Count Landi who doesn't mention anything about his > > poetry. > > > > > > > Porrada existed in my times. Porra had other meanings in Madeira, > including > > the thin line foamy top of newly made wine. > > > Is'nt that "borra?" > > > > But there were others! > > > > Indeed ; -))) > > Best regards, > > > Miguel > > > > > Cheers, > > José > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > > Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:17 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > José, > > > > Maria de Jesus m. 1784 Manuel Fernandes Veloza, was the dau. of Manuel > > Gomes > > de Andrada m. 1744 Mariana de Nóbrega. (see below) 1.1. > > > > > > Manuel Gomes de Andrada was the son of Simão Gomes ( descendant of the > João > > Marques and Catarina Alves, the trunk of the Marques Arrais) and Mariana > de > > Andrade, dau, of António de Andrade Barreto m. 1691 Domingas da Costa. > > > > António de Andrade Barreto was the son of Manuel Fernandes Camacho and > > Maria > > de Andrade (1650, S. Gonçalo, I suppose) (Apart from the Ferreiras "Casta > > grande" we have also the "Fernandes Camacho "Casta grande" - they were as > > many as the Ferreira, at least.) > > Domingas da Costa or Domingas Gomes da Costa was the dau. of Manuel de > > Cairos and Maria Gomes. (1662, S. Pedro) > > > > > > I have more Cairos from other sides. (From the first Cairos from Madeira) > > Most mysterious name! It seems no one knows for sure where that name came > > from. At least of all the classic genealogists from Madeira no one seems > to > > know precisely the origin of that name. They gave hints: perhaps a > > toponymic > > from a village called Cairos somewhere in the North of Portugal. But, as > > far > > as I know, it's not confirmed, > > > > Only thing known is that they were an old family, present since the 15 th > > century. There was one Constantino de Cairos who was a knight. And apart > of > > their division in Cairos de Orta, Cairos Vaz and Cairos Gonçalves, and > that > > they are not to be confounded with Caires (of french origin) - though > some > > Cairos wrote Caires, I still don't know much about them. Yes, I know they > > settled - at least some of them - in Caniço. They were lavradores, most > of > > them. But lavradores with some status. > > > > 1.1. Mariana de Nóbrega, dau of Francisco de Gouveia and Joana de Nóbrega > > (m. 1726) has an interesting ascendancy tree, > > > > > > >From her father side she descends from Correias de Andrade ( from S. > > Martinho,- linked to the old Andrades do Arco? ) and the "famous" Pedro > > Gonçalves and Margarida de Góis. From her mother side she descends from > the > > oldest Nóbregas . our well known Mundos de Nóbrega, and Fernão Gonçalves > de > > Nóbrega (the biggest slave owner of Madeira, according to Livro das > > Famílias > > de Gaula - is that true? If it is you and I and many others have a lot of > > bad family karma to burn. Personally I like black people a lot and I am > not > > racist at all. I even think we Portuguese are half Africans, that's why > we > > have all these problems integrating Europe) and if you see the geography > we > > are separated by two inches of water from Africa.), and also from the > > Saldanhas of Madeira and the Noronha from Caniço. (who have legitimately, > I > > believe, all the little blue golden green and so on balls in geneall ; > > -))) > > > > These Saldanhas from Madeira are another mystery. It seems (according to > > the > > writer Gonalo de Aguiar in "Coisas da Madeira" and other authors) that > they > > were noble and rich. I can't link them with the old Saldanhas from > > Portugal. > > Though they have the same name and surnames - Diogo and João as their > > possible Portuguese ancestors. Now, Saldanha in the 15 th century was a > > recent name in Portugal. It came from Spain, through the descendants of > > Diogo Lopez de Saldanha, a Spanish, that for political reasons had to > flee > > from Spain to Portugal. > > I descend from Diogo Ennes Saldanha and his black or coloured mistress, > > Concórdia Fernandes. > > > > The Noronhas from Caniço are well known. The great thing from my point of > > view is that they descend from Manuel de Noronha , "poeta do > Cancioneiro". > > (Poet from the "Cancioneiro". The Cancioneiro was probably the first > > anthology of poetry to be made in Portugal. 16 th century. Manuel de > > Noronha > > was also a Câmara, son of João Gonçalves da Cãmara, 2nd Capitão Donatário > > do > > Funchal. O Porrinha! > > For those who don't know, already in that time madeirna were quick to > > baptize everyone with an alcunha. The 2nd Capitão donatário (a kind of > King > > of Madeira) was also the Supreme Judge or Justice. And he loved to > > administer it! He really did. And to reinforce the adminstration of > Justice > > he carried a big stick with him all the time. ( originally "dar porrada" > in > > Portugal means to beat someone with a Porra, a big wooden stick. We still > > say porra! a lot and "porreiro" meaning cute even more.) He experimented, > > vigorously it seems, his stick on the back of some criminals or > > transgressors. hence his alcunha, diminutive by antinomy, o Porrinha. But > > his "porrinha" was indeed a big Porra, perhaps skinned with some metal. > > > > Well, these ancestors who provide a stream of stories are really > precious. > > Moreover these Noronhas link with a turbulent royal Castillian dinasty, > the > > Trastamaras - and there you dive in in centuries of pure greek tragedy, > > full > > of episodes, treasons. battles, crimes and fratricides for all tastes. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

No, Leandro, not at all. It's free. Just write family search in your searching engine. And you'll get to the LDS site. It's a wealthy place, a mine of info. The microfilms, they do actually provide them. Someone here might explain better to you how to get them, because I never asked for microfilms. But I have searched what they to offer for free in their site. It contains some mistakes, of course. Like wrong spelling (the most frequent). But still is a very valuable tool. And for Madeira it has loads, For instance, my Teixeira de Góis connection. I was able to determine it through the LDS site, then I asked ARM the certificates. It also worked for other lines, like the Drummond/ Escórcio. Of course in other lines that interest me they don't have nothing. But I bet you'll get hooked in that site. Best, Miguel On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:30 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > sorry for my ignorance :) but dont we have to apply for the microfilms to > be able to see the data? > > > In a message dated 12/3/2009 3:28:51 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Later Day Saints, the Moromon Site. > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 1:09 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > what is LDS? > > > > > > In a message dated 12/3/2009 2:08:31 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > LDS not LSD! ; - ))) > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Leandro, > > > > > > About Filipa de Quintal check LSD sources. > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 3:59 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> i didn't have guiomar mendes parents listed before. i have mendo > and > > ines > > >> having a daughter called leonor mendes that married joao goncalves > in > > >> canico. So i think that you are defnitel in the right track there. > > Our > > >> task now > > >> is to try to link those quintal de matos with the other quintals :) > > >> > > >> > > >> In a message dated 03/12/2009 04:55:01 Romance Standard Time, > > >> [email protected] writes: > > >> > > >> ok I have to try to put these pieces together - > > >> > > >> I do not have your Pedro de Quintal - but I do have a Guiomar > Mendes - > > >> about the right frame- she is the daughter of > > >> Mendo ANES & Inês GONCALVES - but I don't have a marriage for her > - > > is > > >> she > > >> the same Guiomar? > > >> If not, who are your Guiomar Mendes parents?? > > >> > > >> I also have your Teodosio de Matos (sourced as you)...but I did not > > have > > >> his parents...so I will need to add that info. > > >> > > >> After that...anything is possible I suppose! > > >> > > >> > > >> ____________________________________ > > >> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > > >> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:46 PM > > >> To: [email protected] > > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Hi cece > > >> > > >> i have an ancestor called Pedro quental (can be also quintal) that > > >> married > > >> in 1558 in Machico with Guiomar Mendes. Their son is called Teodosio > > de > > >> Matos. So i presume that the pedro quintal also carry the name > matos > > >> within > > >> his family. Pedro's parents are Pedro quintal (from mainland) and > > Barbara > > >> Vieira. Could pedro and barbara also be the parents of your > francisca > > de > > >> matos?? > > >> > > >> > > >> In a message dated 03/12/2009 04:36:51 Romance Standard Time, > > >> [email protected] writes: > > >> > > >> > > >> Her mother only is listed on her marriage record - says she is > awidow > > >> living > > >> in Porto Novo...her name is Francisca de QUINTAL and she is my > 11th > > >> great > > >> grandmother. > > >> Cece > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: [email protected] > > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > >> [email protected] > > >> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:21 PM > > >> To: [email protected] > > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > >> > > >> Hi Miguel, > > >> > > >> do you know the parents of Filipa Quintal de Matos? > > >> > > >> Thank you > > >> > > >> Leandro > > >> > > >> > > >> In a message dated 02/12/2009 23:37:07 Romance Standard Time, > > >> [email protected] writes: > > >> > > >> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 6:42 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > >> [email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > >> > Miguel, > > >> > As you know I am a Fernandes Veloza, a name that my maternal > > >> grandfathers > > >> > carried through for about 250 years. The Veloza name came > through a > > >> maternal > > >> > line, Ana Cristina who married my great (5) grandfather in 1746. > > My > > >> maternal > > >> > grandfather was the only son in that branch. He only had two > > >> > daughters, > > >> but > > >> > managed to register my mother with the Fernandes Veloza name. > The > > >> > last > > >> one! > > >> > So, I am assuming that this Manuel was at the very least a > cousin. > > As > > >> > you know they were Lobatos, from Francisco Esteves Lobato. > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On the Cairos, Francisco de Cairos da Orta marries in Caniço > and > > his > > >> > my great (10) grandfather. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Is he Cairos de Orta or Cairos da Orta? > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > His mother was a Cairos and she married in camacha. it seems > that > > >> > Clode list 4 or 5 lines for Cairos, but to me they all seem to > > >> connect. > > >> > > >> > > >> As a matter of fact he refers 6 lines of Cairos. The last one > being > > >> Cairos > > >> Vaz, which is a sub-branch of the main Cairos trunk. > > >> > > >> I also believe that all the Cairos branches are connected. They > are > > >> several > > >> branches of the same trunk. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > These Cairos he seems to call them Vaz Cairos, for Maria Cairos > > >> > marries Gabriel Vaz. > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Many Cairos settled in Caniço, or they became many. They had > > status > > >> > and some retained their status. But on a land based society > where > > the > > >> > oldest > > >> son > > >> > for the most part inherited the land, the other children soon > lost > > >> status, > > >> > and in one or two generations that name was the only thing that > > >> > remained > > >> of > > >> > that high status. > > >> > Of course we also share the Nóbrega line. I would have to trust > the > > >> > published genealogies to link to Fernão Gonçalves de Nóbrega, > but I > > >> > definitely descend from Gabriel de Nóbrega married to Francisca > > Cunha > > >> around > > >> > 1615. > > >> > > >> > > >> Francisca is not Cunham she is de Ocanha, I have a marriage > > certificate > > >> from Caniço where she appears. She is certainly connected to the > > Ocanha > > >> (or > > >> Canhas) family referred by HHN. Gabriel is the son of Fernão > > Gonçalves > > >> de > > >> Nórega. I have his marriage certificate. And Fernão is the son of > > Mundos > > >> de > > >> Nóbrega. > > >> > > >> Fernão's wife Ana Pires is the dau. of Vitório Pires and Filipa do > > >> Quintal > > >> de Matos. The LDS forum gives her as descendant of the Crés. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > He was my great(8) grandfather. This Joana must be a > > granddaughter. > > >> > > > >> > > >> She is a g.g. grandaughter. > > >> > > >> 0.1. Mundos de Nóbrega > > >> 1. Gabriel m. Francisca d'Ocanha > > >> 1.2. Gabriel de Nóbrega m. Maria Joirge dau of Pedro Gonçalves > and > > >> Madalena > > >> Jorge (from the Fragas) 1.3. Francisca de Nóbrega m. Matias de > > Amdrada > > >> 1.4 Joana de Nóbrega m. Francisco de Gouveia 1.4. Mariana de > Nóbrega > > m, > > >> Manuel Gomes de Andrada > > >> > > >> > > > >> > I also have a Dias Saldanha in the late 1500's. > > >> > > > >> > > >> Which one? > > >> > > >> > > >> > Some Noronhas also married into my family, but they were > women. > > >> > > >> > > >> Who were they? There are other Noronhas apart from Manuel de > Noronha, > > >> though they all come from the same source: D. Alfonso Henriques, > > Count > > >> of > > >> Gijón and Noroña, son of D. Henrique III, King of Castille. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Not sure we can link these Noronhas to Manuel de Noronha. I > haven't > > >> > seen anything that links them to the Caniço Noronha. I didn't > know > > >> > Manuel was > > >> a > > >> > poet. Never read any of his poems or songs. > > >> > > >> > > >> They're on line. Visconde do Porto da Cruz made a book referring > all > > >> remarkable Madeirans. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > I knew" him through Count Landi who doesn't mention anything > about > > >> > his poetry. > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Porrada existed in my times. Porra had other meanings in > Madeira, > > >> including > > >> > the thin line foamy top of newly made wine. > > >> > > >> > > >> Is'nt that "borra?" > > >> > > >> > > >> > But there were others! > > >> > > > >> > Indeed ; -))) > > >> > > >> Best regards, > > >> > > >> > > >> Miguel > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Cheers, > > >> > José > > >> > > > >> > -----Original Message----- > > >> > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > >> > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > Castro > > >> Henriques > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:17 PM > > >> > To: [email protected] > > >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > >> > > > >> > José, > > >> > > > >> > Maria de Jesus m. 1784 Manuel Fernandes Veloza, was the dau. of > > >> > Manuel Gomes de Andrada m. 1744 Mariana de Nóbrega. (see > below) > > 1.1. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Manuel Gomes de Andrada was the son of Simão Gomes ( descendant > of > > >> > the > > >> João > > >> > Marques and Catarina Alves, the trunk of the Marques Arrais) > and > > >> > Mariana > > >> de > > >> > Andrade, dau, of António de Andrade Barreto m. 1691 Domingas da > > Costa. > > >> > > > >> > António de Andrade Barreto was the son of Manuel Fernandes > Camacho > > >> > and Maria de Andrade (1650, S. Gonçalo, I suppose) (Apart from > the > > >> > Ferreiras "Casta grande" we have also the "Fernandes Camacho > "Casta > > >> > grande" - they were as many as the Ferreira, at least.) Domingas > da > > >> > Costa or Domingas Gomes da Costa was the dau. of Manuel de > Cairos > > and > > >> > Maria Gomes. (1662, S. Pedro) > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > I have more Cairos from other sides. (From the first Cairos from > > >> > Madeira) Most mysterious name! It seems no one knows for sure > where > > >> > that name came from. At least of all the classic genealogists > from > > >> > Madeira no one seems > > >> to > > >> > know precisely the origin of that name. They gave hints: perhaps > a > > >> > toponymic from a village called Cairos somewhere in the North > of > > >> > Portugal. But, as far as I know, it's not confirmed, > > >> > > > >> > Only thing known is that they were an old family, present since > > the > > >> > 15 th century. There was one Constantino de Cairos who was a > > knight. > > >> > And apart > > >> of > > >> > their division in Cairos de Orta, Cairos Vaz and Cairos > Gonçalves, > > >> > and > > >> that > > >> > they are not to be confounded with Caires (of french origin) - > > though > > >> some > > >> > Cairos wrote Caires, I still don't know much about them. Yes, I > > know > > >> > they settled - at least some of them - in Caniço. They were > > >> > lavradores, most > > >> of > > >> > them. But lavradores with some status. > > >> > > > >> > 1.1. Mariana de Nóbrega, dau of Francisco de Gouveia and Joana > de > > >> > Nóbrega (m. 1726) has an interesting ascendancy tree, > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >From her father side she descends from Correias de Andrade ( > from > > S. > > >> > Martinho,- linked to the old Andrades do Arco? ) and the > "famous" > > > > >> > Pedro Gonçalves and Margarida de Góis. From her mother side she > > >> > descends from > > >> the > > >> > oldest Nóbregas . our well known Mundos de Nóbrega, and Fernão > > >> > Gonçalves > > >> de > > >> > Nóbrega (the biggest slave owner of Madeira, according to Livro > das > > >> > Famílias de Gaula - is that true? If it is you and I and many > > others > > >> > have a lot of bad family karma to burn. Personally I like black > > >> > people a lot and I am > > >> not > > >> > racist at all. I even think we Portuguese are half Africans, > > that's > > >> > why > > >> we > > >> > have all these problems integrating Europe) and if you see the > > >> > geography > > >> we > > >> > are separated by two inches of water from Africa.), and also > from > > the > > >> > Saldanhas of Madeira and the Noronha from Caniço. (who have > > >> legitimately, I > > >> > believe, all the little blue golden green and so on balls in > > geneall > > >> > ; > > >> > -))) > > >> > > > >> > These Saldanhas from Madeira are another mystery. It seems > > (according > > >> > to the writer Gonalo de Aguiar in "Coisas da Madeira" and other > > >> > authors) that > > >> they > > >> > were noble and rich. I can't link them with the old Saldanhas > from > > >> > Portugal. > > >> > Though they have the same name and surnames - Diogo and João > as > > their > > >> > possible Portuguese ancestors. Now, Saldanha in the 15 th > century > > was > > >> > a recent name in Portugal. It came from Spain, through the > > >> > descendants of Diogo Lopez de Saldanha, a Spanish, that for > > political > > >> > reasons had to > > >> flee > > >> > from Spain to Portugal. > > >> > I descend from Diogo Ennes Saldanha and his black or coloured > > >> > mistress, Concórdia Fernandes. > > >> > > > >> > The Noronhas from Caniço are well known. The great thing from > my > > >> > point of view is that they descend from Manuel de Noronha , > "poeta > > do > > >> Cancioneiro". > > >> > (Poet from the "Cancioneiro". The Cancioneiro was probably the > > first > > >> > anthology of poetry to be made in Portugal. 16 th century. Manuel > de > > >> > Noronha was also a Câmara, son of João Gonçalves da Cãmara, 2nd > > >> > Capitão Donatário do Funchal. O Porrinha! > > >> > For those who don't know, already in that time madeirna were > quick > > to > > >> > baptize everyone with an alcunha. The 2nd Capitão donatário (a > kind > > >> > of > > >> King > > >> > of Madeira) was also the Supreme Judge or Justice. And he loved > to > > >> > administer it! He really did. And to reinforce the adminstration > of > > >> Justice > > >> > he carried a big stick with him all the time. ( originally "dar > > >> porrada" > > >> in > > >> > Portugal means to beat someone with a Porra, a big wooden > stick. > > We > > >> > still say porra! a lot and "porreiro" meaning cute even more.) > He > > >> > experimented, vigorously it seems, his stick on the back of > some > > >> > criminals or transgressors. hence his alcunha, diminutive by > > >> > antinomy, o Porrinha. But his "porrinha" was indeed a big Porra, > > >> perhaps > > >> skinned with some metal. > > >> > > > >> > Well, these ancestors who provide a stream of stories are really > > >> precious. > > >> > Moreover these Noronhas link with a turbulent royal Castillian > > >> > dinasty, > > >> the > > >> > Trastamaras - and there you dive in in centuries of pure greek > > >> > tragedy, full of episodes, treasons. battles, crimes and > > fratricides > > >> > for all tastes. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Best regards, > > >> > > > >> > Miguel > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ------------------------------- > > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > >> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > >> > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > >> the > > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > >> > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > >> Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.89/2539 - Release Date: > > >> 12/02/09 > > >> 19:43:00 > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > >> quotes in the subject > > >> and the body of the message > > >> > > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > >> Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: > > >> 12/02/09 > > >> 19:43:00 > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject > > and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

José, He is the same Francisco. Sometimes name were shortened Anyway the d'Orta name puzzles me. There are the Hurtere, Flemish, from Açores (which gave the name to cidade da Horta), and the Horta, from Spain. Could he be from Açores ? From the Hurtere branch? Never heard someone raising this question before. May be I am 100% wrong. The Sás or Sousas e Sás from Caniço are, in part Sousas (by way of Jerónimo de Sousa, the trunk of that line) from Açores. I can't remember now their Sá name origin. It was a mighty name then, not common, though there were some Sás commoners and a few Sás nobles. Anyway a noble having Sá as a name would use it proudly. Like the Bettencourts de Sá did. Curuosly the Sás originate in Porto (Portugal) from bourgeois origins, around the mid 14 th century. So it's not that old. (A really old name in Portugal is a name existing before 1143, before King Afonso Henriques declared independence from Castille) when Portugal was still Comitat Portucalensis. I also have lots of Corrêas de Miranda (from Caniço) , coming from the first Corrêa de Miranda settler. Do you have them too? Actually my g.grand mother was Eulália de Jesus Corrêa de Miranda, her godfather was Morgado Jacinto de Freitas Lomelino, still a relative. She married a Nóbrega from the line of Mundos da Nóbrega. (They say Mundos name was Edmundo. It's quite probable. But I like the way it stayed for posterity : Mundos. The translation in English, of course, is "Worlds". Quite meaningful. At least I give it a lot of meaning, though Mundos was illiterate. I have his signature, a typical cross. ) The point about the origin of the Nóbrega surname is: was Nóbrega a toponymic, or not? In short , did the first Madeira Nóbrega came from the "Terras de Nóbrega", or did they carry the name Nóbrega? In the later case they could be a branch of the Aboim. But I have not seen this problem satisfactorily solved. One day, if Nóbrega is an added patronymic then wi will have to dive in the Gonçalves of Terras de Anóbrega - another way of saying Nóbrega. And that's for sure cnossian! The Regos seems to be from Algarve. The trunk of the Vianas, according to primo Clode, was Afonso Viana, from Caniço. >From him was descended João de Viana, Fidalgo Escudeiro da Casa Real, "whose descendants mixed with the Cairos from Caniço".(source: Clode. FMPS pg 333). The Vianas in that time were very rich, had a marble tomb, much envied, because they were perhaps the only ones in Madeira to afford such a luxury. (There is no marble in Madeira). Other noble families wanted to have a marble tomb " na feissão da de João de Vianna) (similar to the marble tom of the magnífico Viana). Don' forget ti tell me about your Dias Saldanha. Mine were Manuel Dias Saldanha m. Maria de Andrada ( from the Ferreira Noronhas). His parents were Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. (m. around 162...) Perdo Dias Saldanha was a natural son of Diogo Annes Saldanha (ouvidor de Machico) and Concórdia Fernandes. (I suppose Concórdia was a black woman, or mestiça. But I don't know why I suppose so. Perhaps Paulo can shed some light in here* She was Diogo's "amiga". (lovely expression for lover.) Ana Henriques, obviously, interests me. Now the Henriques name, being a patronymic, is a hard bone to crunch. Unfortunately there is no marriage certificate for Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. The interesting thing is to find Saldanhas in Madeira, at an early time. Almost after the first settlement. I am almost sure . due to their status, that they were from the Saldanhas that came to Portugal from Spain. And as I lived quite near Praça do Saldanha , in Lisbon ( Duke of Saldanha Square) during many years, this name interests me a lot. I also have friends with that name, direct descendants of the first Saldanhas who came to Portugal. About Madalena Jorge, i have scores of Jorges too. Some, were from Porto Santo, descendants of Pedro Jorge (From the terrible mess of the mid 16 th Calaças). Others from Gaula, and have nothing to do with the former. And still others like BeatrizJorge married to Manuel Afonso, (16 th century) that I can't track. Regards, Miguel On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > I have Francisco's certificate and it only uses de Cairos (Caniço, 1592, > 915 A, 41). He marries Ines de Viana, daughter of Vasco Fernandes do Rego > and Beatriz de Viana. On his son's certificate Manuel de Viana (Cairos) his > name is listed as Francisco de Cairos d'orta, lavrador. Manuel married > Antónia de Sá (Caniço, 1632, 915A, 100v. What is the difference here? > > On Joana, I descend a couple of times from Gabriel de Nóbrega, but I am not > aware yet that is also includes this line. I am full of Nóbregas and I can't > keep track of them all! One of my links is through a daughter Madalena Jorge > who marries António Ferreira in 1685. > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:46 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > Miguel > Fine! It's borra. Remember I left very young. But the other meaning are > still correct. > > It's actually Francisco d'Orta. He marries Ines de Viana, and as I > mentioned is one of the Vaz Cairos. > Yes Francisca is Ocanha because I also have that certificate which is not > very readable. Everything else correct as you say. That is what I have. > I will get back to you on Saldanha and Joana de Nóbrega. > > Cheers, > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:37 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 6:42 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel, > > As you know I am a Fernandes Veloza, a name that my maternal grandfathers > > carried through for about 250 years. The Veloza name came through a > maternal > > line, Ana Cristina who married my great (5) grandfather in 1746. My > maternal > > grandfather was the only son in that branch. He only had two daughters, > but > > managed to register my mother with the Fernandes Veloza name. The last > one! > > So, I am assuming that this Manuel was at the very least a cousin. As you > > know they were Lobatos, from Francisco Esteves Lobato. > > > > > > > On the Cairos, Francisco de Cairos da Orta marries in Caniço and his my > > great (10) grandfather. > > > > > Is he Cairos de Orta or Cairos da Orta? > > > > > His mother was a Cairos and she married in camacha. it seems that Clode > > list 4 or 5 lines for Cairos, but to me they all seem to connect. > > > As a matter of fact he refers 6 lines of Cairos. The last one being Cairos > Vaz, which is a sub-branch of the main Cairos trunk. > > I also believe that all the Cairos branches are connected. They are > several > branches of the same trunk. > > > > > These Cairos he seems to call them Vaz Cairos, for Maria Cairos marries > > Gabriel Vaz. > > > > > > > Many Cairos settled in Caniço, or they became many. They had status and > > some retained their status. But on a land based society where the oldest > son > > for the most part inherited the land, the other children soon lost > status, > > and in one or two generations that name was the only thing that remained > of > > that high status. > > Of course we also share the Nóbrega line. I would have to trust the > > published genealogies to link to Fernão Gonçalves de Nóbrega, but I > > definitely descend from Gabriel de Nóbrega married to Francisca Cunha > around > > 1615. > > > Francisca is not Cunham she is de Ocanha, I have a marriage certificate > from > Caniço where she appears. She is certainly connected to the Ocanha (or > Canhas) family referred by HHN. Gabriel is the son of Fernão Gonçalves de > Nórega. I have his marriage certificate. And Fernão is the son of Mundos de > Nóbrega. > > Fernão's wife Ana Pires is the dau. of Vitório Pires and Filipa do Quintal > de Matos. The LDS forum gives her as descendant of the Crés. > > > > > He was my great(8) grandfather. This Joana must be a granddaughter. > > > > She is a g.g. grandaughter. > > 0.1. Mundos de Nóbrega > 1. Gabriel m. Francisca d'Ocanha > 1.2. Gabriel de Nóbrega m. Maria Joirge dau of Pedro Gonçalves and Madalena > Jorge (from the Fragas) > 1.3. Francisca de Nóbrega m. Matias de Amdrada > 1.4 Joana de Nóbrega m. Francisco de Gouveia > 1.4. Mariana de Nóbrega m, Manuel Gomes de Andrada > > > > > I also have a Dias Saldanha in the late 1500's. > > > > Which one? > > > > Some Noronhas also married into my family, but they were women. > > > Who were they? There are other Noronhas apart from Manuel de Noronha, > though > they all come from the same source: D. Alfonso Henriques, Count of Gijón > and > Noroña, son of D. Henrique III, King of Castille. > > > > > Not sure we can link these Noronhas to Manuel de Noronha. I haven't seen > > anything that links them to the Caniço Noronha. I didn't know Manuel was > a > > poet. Never read any of his poems or songs. > > > They're on line. Visconde do Porto da Cruz made a book referring all > remarkable Madeirans. > > > > > I knew" him through Count Landi who doesn't mention anything about his > > poetry. > > > > > > > Porrada existed in my times. Porra had other meanings in Madeira, > including > > the thin line foamy top of newly made wine. > > > Is'nt that "borra?" > > > > But there were others! > > > > Indeed ; -))) > > Best regards, > > > Miguel > > > > > Cheers, > > José > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > > Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:17 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > José, > > > > Maria de Jesus m. 1784 Manuel Fernandes Veloza, was the dau. of Manuel > > Gomes > > de Andrada m. 1744 Mariana de Nóbrega. (see below) 1.1. > > > > > > Manuel Gomes de Andrada was the son of Simão Gomes ( descendant of the > João > > Marques and Catarina Alves, the trunk of the Marques Arrais) and Mariana > de > > Andrade, dau, of António de Andrade Barreto m. 1691 Domingas da Costa. > > > > António de Andrade Barreto was the son of Manuel Fernandes Camacho and > > Maria > > de Andrade (1650, S. Gonçalo, I suppose) (Apart from the Ferreiras "Casta > > grande" we have also the "Fernandes Camacho "Casta grande" - they were as > > many as the Ferreira, at least.) > > Domingas da Costa or Domingas Gomes da Costa was the dau. of Manuel de > > Cairos and Maria Gomes. (1662, S. Pedro) > > > > > > I have more Cairos from other sides. (From the first Cairos from Madeira) > > Most mysterious name! It seems no one knows for sure where that name came > > from. At least of all the classic genealogists from Madeira no one seems > to > > know precisely the origin of that name. They gave hints: perhaps a > > toponymic > > from a village called Cairos somewhere in the North of Portugal. But, as > > far > > as I know, it's not confirmed, > > > > Only thing known is that they were an old family, present since the 15 th > > century. There was one Constantino de Cairos who was a knight. And apart > of > > their division in Cairos de Orta, Cairos Vaz and Cairos Gonçalves, and > that > > they are not to be confounded with Caires (of french origin) - though > some > > Cairos wrote Caires, I still don't know much about them. Yes, I know they > > settled - at least some of them - in Caniço. They were lavradores, most > of > > them. But lavradores with some status. > > > > 1.1. Mariana de Nóbrega, dau of Francisco de Gouveia and Joana de Nóbrega > > (m. 1726) has an interesting ascendancy tree, > > > > > > >From her father side she descends from Correias de Andrade ( from S. > > Martinho,- linked to the old Andrades do Arco? ) and the "famous" Pedro > > Gonçalves and Margarida de Góis. From her mother side she descends from > the > > oldest Nóbregas . our well known Mundos de Nóbrega, and Fernão Gonçalves > de > > Nóbrega (the biggest slave owner of Madeira, according to Livro das > > Famílias > > de Gaula - is that true? If it is you and I and many others have a lot of > > bad family karma to burn. Personally I like black people a lot and I am > not > > racist at all. I even think we Portuguese are half Africans, that's why > we > > have all these problems integrating Europe) and if you see the geography > we > > are separated by two inches of water from Africa.), and also from the > > Saldanhas of Madeira and the Noronha from Caniço. (who have legitimately, > I > > believe, all the little blue golden green and so on balls in geneall ; > > -))) > > > > These Saldanhas from Madeira are another mystery. It seems (according to > > the > > writer Gonalo de Aguiar in "Coisas da Madeira" and other authors) that > they > > were noble and rich. I can't link them with the old Saldanhas from > > Portugal. > > Though they have the same name and surnames - Diogo and João as their > > possible Portuguese ancestors. Now, Saldanha in the 15 th century was a > > recent name in Portugal. It came from Spain, through the descendants of > > Diogo Lopez de Saldanha, a Spanish, that for political reasons had to > flee > > from Spain to Portugal. > > I descend from Diogo Ennes Saldanha and his black or coloured mistress, > > Concórdia Fernandes. > > > > The Noronhas from Caniço are well known. The great thing from my point of > > view is that they descend from Manuel de Noronha , "poeta do > Cancioneiro". > > (Poet from the "Cancioneiro". The Cancioneiro was probably the first > > anthology of poetry to be made in Portugal. 16 th century. Manuel de > > Noronha > > was also a Câmara, son of João Gonçalves da Cãmara, 2nd Capitão Donatário > > do > > Funchal. O Porrinha! > > For those who don't know, already in that time madeirna were quick to > > baptize everyone with an alcunha. The 2nd Capitão donatário (a kind of > King > > of Madeira) was also the Supreme Judge or Justice. And he loved to > > administer it! He really did. And to reinforce the adminstration of > Justice > > he carried a big stick with him all the time. ( originally "dar porrada" > in > > Portugal means to beat someone with a Porra, a big wooden stick. We still > > say porra! a lot and "porreiro" meaning cute even more.) He experimented, > > vigorously it seems, his stick on the back of some criminals or > > transgressors. hence his alcunha, diminutive by antinomy, o Porrinha. But > > his "porrinha" was indeed a big Porra, perhaps skinned with some metal. > > > > Well, these ancestors who provide a stream of stories are really > precious. > > Moreover these Noronhas link with a turbulent royal Castillian dinasty, > the > > Trastamaras - and there you dive in in centuries of pure greek tragedy, > > full > > of episodes, treasons. battles, crimes and fratricides for all tastes. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Later Day Saints, the Moromon Site. On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 1:09 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > what is LDS? > > > In a message dated 12/3/2009 2:08:31 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > LDS not LSD! ; - ))) > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Leandro, > > > > About Filipa de Quintal check LSD sources. > > > > regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 3:59 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> i didn't have guiomar mendes parents listed before. i have mendo and > ines > >> having a daughter called leonor mendes that married joao goncalves in > >> canico. So i think that you are defnitel in the right track there. > Our > >> task now > >> is to try to link those quintal de matos with the other quintals :) > >> > >> > >> In a message dated 03/12/2009 04:55:01 Romance Standard Time, > >> [email protected] writes: > >> > >> ok I have to try to put these pieces together - > >> > >> I do not have your Pedro de Quintal - but I do have a Guiomar Mendes - > >> about the right frame- she is the daughter of > >> Mendo ANES & Inês GONCALVES - but I don't have a marriage for her - > is > >> she > >> the same Guiomar? > >> If not, who are your Guiomar Mendes parents?? > >> > >> I also have your Teodosio de Matos (sourced as you)...but I did not > have > >> his parents...so I will need to add that info. > >> > >> After that...anything is possible I suppose! > >> > >> > >> ____________________________________ > >> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > >> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:46 PM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi cece > >> > >> i have an ancestor called Pedro quental (can be also quintal) that > >> married > >> in 1558 in Machico with Guiomar Mendes. Their son is called Teodosio > de > >> Matos. So i presume that the pedro quintal also carry the name matos > >> within > >> his family. Pedro's parents are Pedro quintal (from mainland) and > Barbara > >> Vieira. Could pedro and barbara also be the parents of your francisca > de > >> matos?? > >> > >> > >> In a message dated 03/12/2009 04:36:51 Romance Standard Time, > >> [email protected] writes: > >> > >> > >> Her mother only is listed on her marriage record - says she is awidow > >> living > >> in Porto Novo...her name is Francisca de QUINTAL and she is my 11th > >> great > >> grandmother. > >> Cece > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > >> [email protected] > >> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:21 PM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > >> > >> Hi Miguel, > >> > >> do you know the parents of Filipa Quintal de Matos? > >> > >> Thank you > >> > >> Leandro > >> > >> > >> In a message dated 02/12/2009 23:37:07 Romance Standard Time, > >> [email protected] writes: > >> > >> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 6:42 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > >> [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > Miguel, > >> > As you know I am a Fernandes Veloza, a name that my maternal > >> grandfathers > >> > carried through for about 250 years. The Veloza name came through a > >> maternal > >> > line, Ana Cristina who married my great (5) grandfather in 1746. > My > >> maternal > >> > grandfather was the only son in that branch. He only had two > >> > daughters, > >> but > >> > managed to register my mother with the Fernandes Veloza name. The > >> > last > >> one! > >> > So, I am assuming that this Manuel was at the very least a cousin. > As > >> > you know they were Lobatos, from Francisco Esteves Lobato. > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > On the Cairos, Francisco de Cairos da Orta marries in Caniço and > his > >> > my great (10) grandfather. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Is he Cairos de Orta or Cairos da Orta? > >> > >> > >> > >> > His mother was a Cairos and she married in camacha. it seems that > >> > Clode list 4 or 5 lines for Cairos, but to me they all seem to > >> connect. > >> > >> > >> As a matter of fact he refers 6 lines of Cairos. The last one being > >> Cairos > >> Vaz, which is a sub-branch of the main Cairos trunk. > >> > >> I also believe that all the Cairos branches are connected. They are > >> several > >> branches of the same trunk. > >> > >> > >> > >> > These Cairos he seems to call them Vaz Cairos, for Maria Cairos > >> > marries Gabriel Vaz. > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > Many Cairos settled in Caniço, or they became many. They had > status > >> > and some retained their status. But on a land based society where > the > >> > oldest > >> son > >> > for the most part inherited the land, the other children soon lost > >> status, > >> > and in one or two generations that name was the only thing that > >> > remained > >> of > >> > that high status. > >> > Of course we also share the Nóbrega line. I would have to trust the > >> > published genealogies to link to Fernão Gonçalves de Nóbrega, but I > >> > definitely descend from Gabriel de Nóbrega married to Francisca > Cunha > >> around > >> > 1615. > >> > >> > >> Francisca is not Cunham she is de Ocanha, I have a marriage > certificate > >> from Caniço where she appears. She is certainly connected to the > Ocanha > >> (or > >> Canhas) family referred by HHN. Gabriel is the son of Fernão > Gonçalves > >> de > >> Nórega. I have his marriage certificate. And Fernão is the son of > Mundos > >> de > >> Nóbrega. > >> > >> Fernão's wife Ana Pires is the dau. of Vitório Pires and Filipa do > >> Quintal > >> de Matos. The LDS forum gives her as descendant of the Crés. > >> > >> > >> > >> > He was my great(8) grandfather. This Joana must be a > granddaughter. > >> > > >> > >> She is a g.g. grandaughter. > >> > >> 0.1. Mundos de Nóbrega > >> 1. Gabriel m. Francisca d'Ocanha > >> 1.2. Gabriel de Nóbrega m. Maria Joirge dau of Pedro Gonçalves and > >> Madalena > >> Jorge (from the Fragas) 1.3. Francisca de Nóbrega m. Matias de > Amdrada > >> 1.4 Joana de Nóbrega m. Francisco de Gouveia 1.4. Mariana de Nóbrega > m, > >> Manuel Gomes de Andrada > >> > >> > > >> > I also have a Dias Saldanha in the late 1500's. > >> > > >> > >> Which one? > >> > >> > >> > Some Noronhas also married into my family, but they were women. > >> > >> > >> Who were they? There are other Noronhas apart from Manuel de Noronha, > >> though they all come from the same source: D. Alfonso Henriques, > Count > >> of > >> Gijón and Noroña, son of D. Henrique III, King of Castille. > >> > >> > >> > >> > Not sure we can link these Noronhas to Manuel de Noronha. I haven't > >> > seen anything that links them to the Caniço Noronha. I didn't know > >> > Manuel was > >> a > >> > poet. Never read any of his poems or songs. > >> > >> > >> They're on line. Visconde do Porto da Cruz made a book referring all > >> remarkable Madeirans. > >> > >> > >> > >> > I knew" him through Count Landi who doesn't mention anything about > >> > his poetry. > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > Porrada existed in my times. Porra had other meanings in Madeira, > >> including > >> > the thin line foamy top of newly made wine. > >> > >> > >> Is'nt that "borra?" > >> > >> > >> > But there were others! > >> > > >> > Indeed ; -))) > >> > >> Best regards, > >> > >> > >> Miguel > >> > >> > >> > >> > Cheers, > >> > José > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > >> Henriques > >> > Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:17 PM > >> > To: [email protected] > >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > >> > > >> > José, > >> > > >> > Maria de Jesus m. 1784 Manuel Fernandes Veloza, was the dau. of > >> > Manuel Gomes de Andrada m. 1744 Mariana de Nóbrega. (see below) > 1.1. > >> > > >> > > >> > Manuel Gomes de Andrada was the son of Simão Gomes ( descendant of > >> > the > >> João > >> > Marques and Catarina Alves, the trunk of the Marques Arrais) and > >> > Mariana > >> de > >> > Andrade, dau, of António de Andrade Barreto m. 1691 Domingas da > Costa. > >> > > >> > António de Andrade Barreto was the son of Manuel Fernandes Camacho > >> > and Maria de Andrade (1650, S. Gonçalo, I suppose) (Apart from the > >> > Ferreiras "Casta grande" we have also the "Fernandes Camacho "Casta > >> > grande" - they were as many as the Ferreira, at least.) Domingas da > >> > Costa or Domingas Gomes da Costa was the dau. of Manuel de Cairos > and > >> > Maria Gomes. (1662, S. Pedro) > >> > > >> > > >> > I have more Cairos from other sides. (From the first Cairos from > >> > Madeira) Most mysterious name! It seems no one knows for sure where > >> > that name came from. At least of all the classic genealogists from > >> > Madeira no one seems > >> to > >> > know precisely the origin of that name. They gave hints: perhaps a > >> > toponymic from a village called Cairos somewhere in the North of > >> > Portugal. But, as far as I know, it's not confirmed, > >> > > >> > Only thing known is that they were an old family, present since > the > >> > 15 th century. There was one Constantino de Cairos who was a > knight. > >> > And apart > >> of > >> > their division in Cairos de Orta, Cairos Vaz and Cairos Gonçalves, > >> > and > >> that > >> > they are not to be confounded with Caires (of french origin) - > though > >> some > >> > Cairos wrote Caires, I still don't know much about them. Yes, I > know > >> > they settled - at least some of them - in Caniço. They were > >> > lavradores, most > >> of > >> > them. But lavradores with some status. > >> > > >> > 1.1. Mariana de Nóbrega, dau of Francisco de Gouveia and Joana de > >> > Nóbrega (m. 1726) has an interesting ascendancy tree, > >> > > >> > > >> > >From her father side she descends from Correias de Andrade ( from > S. > >> > Martinho,- linked to the old Andrades do Arco? ) and the "famous" > > >> > Pedro Gonçalves and Margarida de Góis. From her mother side she > >> > descends from > >> the > >> > oldest Nóbregas . our well known Mundos de Nóbrega, and Fernão > >> > Gonçalves > >> de > >> > Nóbrega (the biggest slave owner of Madeira, according to Livro das > >> > Famílias de Gaula - is that true? If it is you and I and many > others > >> > have a lot of bad family karma to burn. Personally I like black > >> > people a lot and I am > >> not > >> > racist at all. I even think we Portuguese are half Africans, > that's > >> > why > >> we > >> > have all these problems integrating Europe) and if you see the > >> > geography > >> we > >> > are separated by two inches of water from Africa.), and also from > the > >> > Saldanhas of Madeira and the Noronha from Caniço. (who have > >> legitimately, I > >> > believe, all the little blue golden green and so on balls in > geneall > >> > ; > >> > -))) > >> > > >> > These Saldanhas from Madeira are another mystery. It seems > (according > >> > to the writer Gonalo de Aguiar in "Coisas da Madeira" and other > >> > authors) that > >> they > >> > were noble and rich. I can't link them with the old Saldanhas from > >> > Portugal. > >> > Though they have the same name and surnames - Diogo and João as > their > >> > possible Portuguese ancestors. Now, Saldanha in the 15 th century > was > >> > a recent name in Portugal. It came from Spain, through the > >> > descendants of Diogo Lopez de Saldanha, a Spanish, that for > political > >> > reasons had to > >> flee > >> > from Spain to Portugal. > >> > I descend from Diogo Ennes Saldanha and his black or coloured > >> > mistress, Concórdia Fernandes. > >> > > >> > The Noronhas from Caniço are well known. The great thing from my > >> > point of view is that they descend from Manuel de Noronha , "poeta > do > >> Cancioneiro". > >> > (Poet from the "Cancioneiro". The Cancioneiro was probably the > first > >> > anthology of poetry to be made in Portugal. 16 th century. Manuel de > >> > Noronha was also a Câmara, son of João Gonçalves da Cãmara, 2nd > >> > Capitão Donatário do Funchal. O Porrinha! > >> > For those who don't know, already in that time madeirna were quick > to > >> > baptize everyone with an alcunha. The 2nd Capitão donatário (a kind > >> > of > >> King > >> > of Madeira) was also the Supreme Judge or Justice. And he loved to > >> > administer it! He really did. And to reinforce the adminstration of > >> Justice > >> > he carried a big stick with him all the time. ( originally "dar > >> porrada" > >> in > >> > Portugal means to beat someone with a Porra, a big wooden stick. > We > >> > still say porra! a lot and "porreiro" meaning cute even more.) He > >> > experimented, vigorously it seems, his stick on the back of some > >> > criminals or transgressors. hence his alcunha, diminutive by > >> > antinomy, o Porrinha. But his "porrinha" was indeed a big Porra, > >> perhaps > >> skinned with some metal. > >> > > >> > Well, these ancestors who provide a stream of stories are really > >> precious. > >> > Moreover these Noronhas link with a turbulent royal Castillian > >> > dinasty, > >> the > >> > Trastamaras - and there you dive in in centuries of pure greek > >> > tragedy, full of episodes, treasons. battles, crimes and > fratricides > >> > for all tastes. > >> > > >> > > >> > Best regards, > >> > > >> > Miguel > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.89/2539 - Release Date: > >> 12/02/09 > >> 19:43:00 > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> quotes in the subject > >> and the body of the message > >> > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: > >> 12/02/09 > >> 19:43:00 > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Luis, I am not sure it is clear but, at least in Canada, we are not allowed to take the films home. We have to view them at the closest Centre. I would add that, once again at least in Canada, if after the first order, you want to keep the film and donated to your centre you just pay an amount. I don't recall exactly how much I paid, but it seemed to me to be around $10. These films can be used by anyone. Thanks. José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Luis Beal Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 12:14 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] LDS site The site Miguel is talking about is www.familysearch.org Family search has thousands of records that people have submitted so please don't assume they are correct. Use it as a guide to help you in your reseach.  As some of you might know the LDS site has been asking people to help them index the microfilms http://www.familysearch.org/eng/indexing/frameset_indexing.asp anyone can help with this. The church is trying to make them available online for free so they need help. If this is something you guys would like to do go ahead and give it a try. They have both US and international records. Some of the records that have been or are being indexed are on this page: http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#start I use this site all the time and have been able to find records not even ancestry.com has. They already have some records from Brazil, Spain, and other parts of Europe. I am paciently waiting for Portugal to come up on their list :) As for how you can get a copy of the microfilms you need to go to your closest Family History Center  http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/FHC/frameset_fhc.asp to order them. To see what the church has recordwise go here http://www.familysearch.org/eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp do a place search, then do Madeira part of Portugal (or whatever place you need). Select Portugal, Madeira (ilha), then select Church Records. There will be a list by parish so select the one you need. On the top right corner will be a box that says "view film notes" click on that. If that box is not on a page you need that means the records are on paper format at the Family History Library in Salt Lake City. Once you click on "View film notes" a list of microfilms by type and year will pop up. Either print out that page or write down the record title and microfilm number and take it to the closest FHC near you. They can order it for you. Cost is $5.50 which covers shipping the film. You will have about a month to look at the film and if you'd like to keep it longer you can renew it twice for that same price each time. Each time you renew it will be available to you for 3 months. The people that work at the FHC can help you do the search too and for free. As far as I know there is not a single FHC in the world that charges to help people do their research and some of them are very knowledgeable so do use them. Hope that helps, Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator ________________________________

LDS not LSD! ; - ))) On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < [email protected]> wrote: > Leandro, > > About Filipa de Quintal check LSD sources. > > regards, > > Miguel > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 3:59 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> i didn't have guiomar mendes parents listed before. i have mendo and ines >> having a daughter called leonor mendes that married joao goncalves in >> canico. So i think that you are defnitel in the right track there. Our >> task now >> is to try to link those quintal de matos with the other quintals :) >> >> >> In a message dated 03/12/2009 04:55:01 Romance Standard Time, >> [email protected] writes: >> >> ok I have to try to put these pieces together - >> >> I do not have your Pedro de Quintal - but I do have a Guiomar Mendes - >> about the right frame- she is the daughter of >> Mendo ANES & Inês GONCALVES - but I don't have a marriage for her - is >> she >> the same Guiomar? >> If not, who are your Guiomar Mendes parents?? >> >> I also have your Teodosio de Matos (sourced as you)...but I did not have >> his parents...so I will need to add that info. >> >> After that...anything is possible I suppose! >> >> >> ____________________________________ >> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] >> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:46 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos >> >> >> >> Hi cece >> >> i have an ancestor called Pedro quental (can be also quintal) that >> married >> in 1558 in Machico with Guiomar Mendes. Their son is called Teodosio de >> Matos. So i presume that the pedro quintal also carry the name matos >> within >> his family. Pedro's parents are Pedro quintal (from mainland) and Barbara >> Vieira. Could pedro and barbara also be the parents of your francisca de >> matos?? >> >> >> In a message dated 03/12/2009 04:36:51 Romance Standard Time, >> [email protected] writes: >> >> >> Her mother only is listed on her marriage record - says she is awidow >> living >> in Porto Novo...her name is Francisca de QUINTAL and she is my 11th >> great >> grandmother. >> Cece >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >> [email protected] >> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:21 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos >> >> Hi Miguel, >> >> do you know the parents of Filipa Quintal de Matos? >> >> Thank you >> >> Leandro >> >> >> In a message dated 02/12/2009 23:37:07 Romance Standard Time, >> [email protected] writes: >> >> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 6:42 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Miguel, >> > As you know I am a Fernandes Veloza, a name that my maternal >> grandfathers >> > carried through for about 250 years. The Veloza name came through a >> maternal >> > line, Ana Cristina who married my great (5) grandfather in 1746. My >> maternal >> > grandfather was the only son in that branch. He only had two >> > daughters, >> but >> > managed to register my mother with the Fernandes Veloza name. The >> > last >> one! >> > So, I am assuming that this Manuel was at the very least a cousin. As >> > you know they were Lobatos, from Francisco Esteves Lobato. >> > >> >> >> >> > On the Cairos, Francisco de Cairos da Orta marries in Caniço and his >> > my great (10) grandfather. >> >> >> >> >> Is he Cairos de Orta or Cairos da Orta? >> >> >> >> > His mother was a Cairos and she married in camacha. it seems that >> > Clode list 4 or 5 lines for Cairos, but to me they all seem to >> connect. >> >> >> As a matter of fact he refers 6 lines of Cairos. The last one being >> Cairos >> Vaz, which is a sub-branch of the main Cairos trunk. >> >> I also believe that all the Cairos branches are connected. They are >> several >> branches of the same trunk. >> >> >> >> > These Cairos he seems to call them Vaz Cairos, for Maria Cairos >> > marries Gabriel Vaz. >> > >> >> >> >> > Many Cairos settled in Caniço, or they became many. They had status >> > and some retained their status. But on a land based society where the >> > oldest >> son >> > for the most part inherited the land, the other children soon lost >> status, >> > and in one or two generations that name was the only thing that >> > remained >> of >> > that high status. >> > Of course we also share the Nóbrega line. I would have to trust the >> > published genealogies to link to Fernão Gonçalves de Nóbrega, but I >> > definitely descend from Gabriel de Nóbrega married to Francisca Cunha >> around >> > 1615. >> >> >> Francisca is not Cunham she is de Ocanha, I have a marriage certificate >> from Caniço where she appears. She is certainly connected to the Ocanha >> (or >> Canhas) family referred by HHN. Gabriel is the son of Fernão Gonçalves >> de >> Nórega. I have his marriage certificate. And Fernão is the son of Mundos >> de >> Nóbrega. >> >> Fernão's wife Ana Pires is the dau. of Vitório Pires and Filipa do >> Quintal >> de Matos. The LDS forum gives her as descendant of the Crés. >> >> >> >> > He was my great(8) grandfather. This Joana must be a granddaughter. >> > >> >> She is a g.g. grandaughter. >> >> 0.1. Mundos de Nóbrega >> 1. Gabriel m. Francisca d'Ocanha >> 1.2. Gabriel de Nóbrega m. Maria Joirge dau of Pedro Gonçalves and >> Madalena >> Jorge (from the Fragas) 1.3. Francisca de Nóbrega m. Matias de Amdrada >> 1.4 Joana de Nóbrega m. Francisco de Gouveia 1.4. Mariana de Nóbrega m, >> Manuel Gomes de Andrada >> >> > >> > I also have a Dias Saldanha in the late 1500's. >> > >> >> Which one? >> >> >> > Some Noronhas also married into my family, but they were women. >> >> >> Who were they? There are other Noronhas apart from Manuel de Noronha, >> though they all come from the same source: D. Alfonso Henriques, Count >> of >> Gijón and Noroña, son of D. Henrique III, King of Castille. >> >> >> >> > Not sure we can link these Noronhas to Manuel de Noronha. I haven't >> > seen anything that links them to the Caniço Noronha. I didn't know >> > Manuel was >> a >> > poet. Never read any of his poems or songs. >> >> >> They're on line. Visconde do Porto da Cruz made a book referring all >> remarkable Madeirans. >> >> >> >> > I knew" him through Count Landi who doesn't mention anything about >> > his poetry. >> > >> >> >> >> > Porrada existed in my times. Porra had other meanings in Madeira, >> including >> > the thin line foamy top of newly made wine. >> >> >> Is'nt that "borra?" >> >> >> > But there were others! >> > >> > Indeed ; -))) >> >> Best regards, >> >> >> Miguel >> >> >> >> > Cheers, >> > José >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> Henriques >> > Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:17 PM >> > To: [email protected] >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos >> > >> > José, >> > >> > Maria de Jesus m. 1784 Manuel Fernandes Veloza, was the dau. of >> > Manuel Gomes de Andrada m. 1744 Mariana de Nóbrega. (see below) 1.1. >> > >> > >> > Manuel Gomes de Andrada was the son of Simão Gomes ( descendant of >> > the >> João >> > Marques and Catarina Alves, the trunk of the Marques Arrais) and >> > Mariana >> de >> > Andrade, dau, of António de Andrade Barreto m. 1691 Domingas da Costa. >> > >> > António de Andrade Barreto was the son of Manuel Fernandes Camacho >> > and Maria de Andrade (1650, S. Gonçalo, I suppose) (Apart from the >> > Ferreiras "Casta grande" we have also the "Fernandes Camacho "Casta >> > grande" - they were as many as the Ferreira, at least.) Domingas da >> > Costa or Domingas Gomes da Costa was the dau. of Manuel de Cairos and >> > Maria Gomes. (1662, S. Pedro) >> > >> > >> > I have more Cairos from other sides. (From the first Cairos from >> > Madeira) Most mysterious name! It seems no one knows for sure where >> > that name came from. At least of all the classic genealogists from >> > Madeira no one seems >> to >> > know precisely the origin of that name. They gave hints: perhaps a >> > toponymic from a village called Cairos somewhere in the North of >> > Portugal. But, as far as I know, it's not confirmed, >> > >> > Only thing known is that they were an old family, present since the >> > 15 th century. There was one Constantino de Cairos who was a knight. >> > And apart >> of >> > their division in Cairos de Orta, Cairos Vaz and Cairos Gonçalves, >> > and >> that >> > they are not to be confounded with Caires (of french origin) - though >> some >> > Cairos wrote Caires, I still don't know much about them. Yes, I know >> > they settled - at least some of them - in Caniço. They were >> > lavradores, most >> of >> > them. But lavradores with some status. >> > >> > 1.1. Mariana de Nóbrega, dau of Francisco de Gouveia and Joana de >> > Nóbrega (m. 1726) has an interesting ascendancy tree, >> > >> > >> > >From her father side she descends from Correias de Andrade ( from S. >> > Martinho,- linked to the old Andrades do Arco? ) and the "famous" >> > Pedro Gonçalves and Margarida de Góis. From her mother side she >> > descends from >> the >> > oldest Nóbregas . our well known Mundos de Nóbrega, and Fernão >> > Gonçalves >> de >> > Nóbrega (the biggest slave owner of Madeira, according to Livro das >> > Famílias de Gaula - is that true? If it is you and I and many others >> > have a lot of bad family karma to burn. Personally I like black >> > people a lot and I am >> not >> > racist at all. I even think we Portuguese are half Africans, that's >> > why >> we >> > have all these problems integrating Europe) and if you see the >> > geography >> we >> > are separated by two inches of water from Africa.), and also from the >> > Saldanhas of Madeira and the Noronha from Caniço. (who have >> legitimately, I >> > believe, all the little blue golden green and so on balls in geneall >> > ; >> > -))) >> > >> > These Saldanhas from Madeira are another mystery. It seems (according >> > to the writer Gonalo de Aguiar in "Coisas da Madeira" and other >> > authors) that >> they >> > were noble and rich. I can't link them with the old Saldanhas from >> > Portugal. >> > Though they have the same name and surnames - Diogo and João as their >> > possible Portuguese ancestors. Now, Saldanha in the 15 th century was >> > a recent name in Portugal. It came from Spain, through the >> > descendants of Diogo Lopez de Saldanha, a Spanish, that for political >> > reasons had to >> flee >> > from Spain to Portugal. >> > I descend from Diogo Ennes Saldanha and his black or coloured >> > mistress, Concórdia Fernandes. >> > >> > The Noronhas from Caniço are well known. The great thing from my >> > point of view is that they descend from Manuel de Noronha , "poeta do >> Cancioneiro". >> > (Poet from the "Cancioneiro". The Cancioneiro was probably the first >> > anthology of poetry to be made in Portugal. 16 th century. Manuel de >> > Noronha was also a Câmara, son of João Gonçalves da Cãmara, 2nd >> > Capitão Donatário do Funchal. O Porrinha! >> > For those who don't know, already in that time madeirna were quick to >> > baptize everyone with an alcunha. The 2nd Capitão donatário (a kind >> > of >> King >> > of Madeira) was also the Supreme Judge or Justice. And he loved to >> > administer it! He really did. And to reinforce the adminstration of >> Justice >> > he carried a big stick with him all the time. ( originally "dar >> porrada" >> in >> > Portugal means to beat someone with a Porra, a big wooden stick. We >> > still say porra! a lot and "porreiro" meaning cute even more.) He >> > experimented, vigorously it seems, his stick on the back of some >> > criminals or transgressors. hence his alcunha, diminutive by >> > antinomy, o Porrinha. But his "porrinha" was indeed a big Porra, >> perhaps >> skinned with some metal. >> > >> > Well, these ancestors who provide a stream of stories are really >> precious. >> > Moreover these Noronhas link with a turbulent royal Castillian >> > dinasty, >> the >> > Trastamaras - and there you dive in in centuries of pure greek >> > tragedy, full of episodes, treasons. battles, crimes and fratricides >> > for all tastes. >> > >> > >> > Best regards, >> > >> > Miguel >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.89/2539 - Release Date: >> 12/02/09 >> 19:43:00 >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject >> and the body of the message >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: >> 12/02/09 >> 19:43:00 >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >

Leandro, About Filipa de Quintal check LSD sources. regards, Miguel On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 3:59 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > i didn't have guiomar mendes parents listed before. i have mendo and ines > having a daughter called leonor mendes that married joao goncalves in > canico. So i think that you are defnitel in the right track there. Our > task now > is to try to link those quintal de matos with the other quintals :) > > > In a message dated 03/12/2009 04:55:01 Romance Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > ok I have to try to put these pieces together - > > I do not have your Pedro de Quintal - but I do have a Guiomar Mendes - > about the right frame- she is the daughter of > Mendo ANES & Inês GONCALVES - but I don't have a marriage for her - is she > the same Guiomar? > If not, who are your Guiomar Mendes parents?? > > I also have your Teodosio de Matos (sourced as you)...but I did not have > his parents...so I will need to add that info. > > After that...anything is possible I suppose! > > > ____________________________________ > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:46 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > Hi cece > > i have an ancestor called Pedro quental (can be also quintal) that married > in 1558 in Machico with Guiomar Mendes. Their son is called Teodosio de > Matos. So i presume that the pedro quintal also carry the name matos within > his family. Pedro's parents are Pedro quintal (from mainland) and Barbara > Vieira. Could pedro and barbara also be the parents of your francisca de > matos?? > > > In a message dated 03/12/2009 04:36:51 Romance Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > > Her mother only is listed on her marriage record - says she is awidow > living > in Porto Novo...her name is Francisca de QUINTAL and she is my 11th great > grandmother. > Cece > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:21 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > Hi Miguel, > > do you know the parents of Filipa Quintal de Matos? > > Thank you > > Leandro > > > In a message dated 02/12/2009 23:37:07 Romance Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 6:42 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel, > > As you know I am a Fernandes Veloza, a name that my maternal > grandfathers > > carried through for about 250 years. The Veloza name came through a > maternal > > line, Ana Cristina who married my great (5) grandfather in 1746. My > maternal > > grandfather was the only son in that branch. He only had two > > daughters, > but > > managed to register my mother with the Fernandes Veloza name. The > > last > one! > > So, I am assuming that this Manuel was at the very least a cousin. As > > you know they were Lobatos, from Francisco Esteves Lobato. > > > > > > > On the Cairos, Francisco de Cairos da Orta marries in Caniço and his > > my great (10) grandfather. > > > > > Is he Cairos de Orta or Cairos da Orta? > > > > > His mother was a Cairos and she married in camacha. it seems that > > Clode list 4 or 5 lines for Cairos, but to me they all seem to connect. > > > As a matter of fact he refers 6 lines of Cairos. The last one being > Cairos > Vaz, which is a sub-branch of the main Cairos trunk. > > I also believe that all the Cairos branches are connected. They are > several > branches of the same trunk. > > > > > These Cairos he seems to call them Vaz Cairos, for Maria Cairos > > marries Gabriel Vaz. > > > > > > > Many Cairos settled in Caniço, or they became many. They had status > > and some retained their status. But on a land based society where the > > oldest > son > > for the most part inherited the land, the other children soon lost > status, > > and in one or two generations that name was the only thing that > > remained > of > > that high status. > > Of course we also share the Nóbrega line. I would have to trust the > > published genealogies to link to Fernão Gonçalves de Nóbrega, but I > > definitely descend from Gabriel de Nóbrega married to Francisca Cunha > around > > 1615. > > > Francisca is not Cunham she is de Ocanha, I have a marriage certificate > from Caniço where she appears. She is certainly connected to the Ocanha > (or > Canhas) family referred by HHN. Gabriel is the son of Fernão Gonçalves de > Nórega. I have his marriage certificate. And Fernão is the son of Mundos > de > Nóbrega. > > Fernão's wife Ana Pires is the dau. of Vitório Pires and Filipa do > Quintal > de Matos. The LDS forum gives her as descendant of the Crés. > > > > > He was my great(8) grandfather. This Joana must be a granddaughter. > > > > She is a g.g. grandaughter. > > 0.1. Mundos de Nóbrega > 1. Gabriel m. Francisca d'Ocanha > 1.2. Gabriel de Nóbrega m. Maria Joirge dau of Pedro Gonçalves and > Madalena > Jorge (from the Fragas) 1.3. Francisca de Nóbrega m. Matias de Amdrada > 1.4 Joana de Nóbrega m. Francisco de Gouveia 1.4. Mariana de Nóbrega m, > Manuel Gomes de Andrada > > > > > I also have a Dias Saldanha in the late 1500's. > > > > Which one? > > > > Some Noronhas also married into my family, but they were women. > > > Who were they? There are other Noronhas apart from Manuel de Noronha, > though they all come from the same source: D. Alfonso Henriques, Count of > Gijón and Noroña, son of D. Henrique III, King of Castille. > > > > > Not sure we can link these Noronhas to Manuel de Noronha. I haven't > > seen anything that links them to the Caniço Noronha. I didn't know > > Manuel was > a > > poet. Never read any of his poems or songs. > > > They're on line. Visconde do Porto da Cruz made a book referring all > remarkable Madeirans. > > > > > I knew" him through Count Landi who doesn't mention anything about > > his poetry. > > > > > > > Porrada existed in my times. Porra had other meanings in Madeira, > including > > the thin line foamy top of newly made wine. > > > Is'nt that "borra?" > > > > But there were others! > > > > Indeed ; -))) > > Best regards, > > > Miguel > > > > > Cheers, > > José > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > > Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:17 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > José, > > > > Maria de Jesus m. 1784 Manuel Fernandes Veloza, was the dau. of > > Manuel Gomes de Andrada m. 1744 Mariana de Nóbrega. (see below) 1.1. > > > > > > Manuel Gomes de Andrada was the son of Simão Gomes ( descendant of > > the > João > > Marques and Catarina Alves, the trunk of the Marques Arrais) and > > Mariana > de > > Andrade, dau, of António de Andrade Barreto m. 1691 Domingas da Costa. > > > > António de Andrade Barreto was the son of Manuel Fernandes Camacho > > and Maria de Andrade (1650, S. Gonçalo, I suppose) (Apart from the > > Ferreiras "Casta grande" we have also the "Fernandes Camacho "Casta > > grande" - they were as many as the Ferreira, at least.) Domingas da > > Costa or Domingas Gomes da Costa was the dau. of Manuel de Cairos and > > Maria Gomes. (1662, S. Pedro) > > > > > > I have more Cairos from other sides. (From the first Cairos from > > Madeira) Most mysterious name! It seems no one knows for sure where > > that name came from. At least of all the classic genealogists from > > Madeira no one seems > to > > know precisely the origin of that name. They gave hints: perhaps a > > toponymic from a village called Cairos somewhere in the North of > > Portugal. But, as far as I know, it's not confirmed, > > > > Only thing known is that they were an old family, present since the > > 15 th century. There was one Constantino de Cairos who was a knight. > > And apart > of > > their division in Cairos de Orta, Cairos Vaz and Cairos Gonçalves, > > and > that > > they are not to be confounded with Caires (of french origin) - though > some > > Cairos wrote Caires, I still don't know much about them. Yes, I know > > they settled - at least some of them - in Caniço. They were > > lavradores, most > of > > them. But lavradores with some status. > > > > 1.1. Mariana de Nóbrega, dau of Francisco de Gouveia and Joana de > > Nóbrega (m. 1726) has an interesting ascendancy tree, > > > > > > >From her father side she descends from Correias de Andrade ( from S. > > Martinho,- linked to the old Andrades do Arco? ) and the "famous" > > Pedro Gonçalves and Margarida de Góis. From her mother side she > > descends from > the > > oldest Nóbregas . our well known Mundos de Nóbrega, and Fernão > > Gonçalves > de > > Nóbrega (the biggest slave owner of Madeira, according to Livro das > > Famílias de Gaula - is that true? If it is you and I and many others > > have a lot of bad family karma to burn. Personally I like black > > people a lot and I am > not > > racist at all. I even think we Portuguese are half Africans, that's > > why > we > > have all these problems integrating Europe) and if you see the > > geography > we > > are separated by two inches of water from Africa.), and also from the > > Saldanhas of Madeira and the Noronha from Caniço. (who have > legitimately, I > > believe, all the little blue golden green and so on balls in geneall > > ; > > -))) > > > > These Saldanhas from Madeira are another mystery. It seems (according > > to the writer Gonalo de Aguiar in "Coisas da Madeira" and other > > authors) that > they > > were noble and rich. I can't link them with the old Saldanhas from > > Portugal. > > Though they have the same name and surnames - Diogo and João as their > > possible Portuguese ancestors. Now, Saldanha in the 15 th century was > > a recent name in Portugal. It came from Spain, through the > > descendants of Diogo Lopez de Saldanha, a Spanish, that for political > > reasons had to > flee > > from Spain to Portugal. > > I descend from Diogo Ennes Saldanha and his black or coloured > > mistress, Concórdia Fernandes. > > > > The Noronhas from Caniço are well known. The great thing from my > > point of view is that they descend from Manuel de Noronha , "poeta do > Cancioneiro". > > (Poet from the "Cancioneiro". The Cancioneiro was probably the first > > anthology of poetry to be made in Portugal. 16 th century. Manuel de > > Noronha was also a Câmara, son of João Gonçalves da Cãmara, 2nd > > Capitão Donatário do Funchal. O Porrinha! > > For those who don't know, already in that time madeirna were quick to > > baptize everyone with an alcunha. The 2nd Capitão donatário (a kind > > of > King > > of Madeira) was also the Supreme Judge or Justice. And he loved to > > administer it! He really did. And to reinforce the adminstration of > Justice > > he carried a big stick with him all the time. ( originally "dar > porrada" > in > > Portugal means to beat someone with a Porra, a big wooden stick. We > > still say porra! a lot and "porreiro" meaning cute even more.) He > > experimented, vigorously it seems, his stick on the back of some > > criminals or transgressors. hence his alcunha, diminutive by > > antinomy, o Porrinha. But his "porrinha" was indeed a big Porra, > perhaps > skinned with some metal. > > > > Well, these ancestors who provide a stream of stories are really > precious. > > Moreover these Noronhas link with a turbulent royal Castillian > > dinasty, > the > > Trastamaras - and there you dive in in centuries of pure greek > > tragedy, full of episodes, treasons. battles, crimes and fratricides > > for all tastes. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.89/2539 - Release Date: > 12/02/09 > 19:43:00 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: 12/02/09 > 19:43:00 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Just two. Maria de Sousa was also Maria de Ataíde. You can check Manuel de Noronha's genealogy in geneall. It's accurate. Maria's father is a Sousa, and she's Ataíde form her mother side. Maria Padilla is another story. It's not referred in geneall. Though I think HHN refers it. regards, Miguel On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 3:44 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > So are you saying that Maria de Sousa = Maria de Ataide = Maria de > Padilla??? > Or is Maria de Padilla actually wife #3 (or #4...if you count the romantic > interlude with Isabel) > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 11:12 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > José, > > Precisely. Maria de Ataíde was also known as Maria de Sousa. Poets and > women, and wine and fights ; -)) > > Miguel > > On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > This Manuel de Noronha, according to António Aragão's notes in > > "Madeira vista por Estrangeiros- 1455-1700", married twice in Madeira > > and a third time in Castilla/Spain where he had fled. The second wife > > was Maria de Ataide, daughter of Manuel de Sousa. Aragão, quoting HHN > > writes that Manuel de Noronha killed a man in a duel, fled to Castilla > > married D. Maria de Padilla and had a son with the same name. > > > > José > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 11:51 AM > > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >>The Noronhas from Caniço are well known. The great thing from my > > > >>point > > of > > > view is that they descend from Manuel de Noronha , "poeta do > > Cancioneiro". > > > (Poet from the "Cancioneiro". The Cancioneiro was probably the first > > > anthology of poetry to be made in Portugal. 16 th century. Manuel de > > > Noronha was also a Câmara, son of João Gonçalves da Cãmara, 2nd > > > Capitão Donatário do Funchal. O Porrinha! > > > > > > Who is the wife (& children?) of this Manuel de Noronha? > > > > > > > He was married twice with D. Beatriz de Meneses, and Maria de Sousa. > > > > His lover was Isabel Soares Ferreira "mulher nobre de Cãmara de > > Lobos", widow of the famous Álvaro Figueira de Chaves, and she > > probably was from the Ferreiras "Casta Grande" and perhaps (my > > educated guess, that's all) from the Perestrelos. from whom : > > > > Maria de Noronha m. Joâo Gonçalves de Aguiar, nobleman (according to > > Pereira de Agrela) from Caniço. RGFMPS pg 128 (geneall, and Felisberto > > and HHN) > > > > They had: Simão Gonçalves de Noronha and Guiomar Ferreira. > > > > Simão Gonçalves married Inês Ferreira de Andrade (probably from the > > Andrades do Arco) and they had > > > > João Ferreira m. 1601 Inês de Andrade. dau of Francisco de Caires > > Ribeiro and Isabel Fernandes (probably Fernandes de Andrade) they had: > > > > > > António Ferreira m. Maria Mendes > > Belchior Soares > > and Maria de Andrade m. Pedro Dias Saldanha (1651) son or grandson of > > Diogo Dias Saldanha, Ouvidor em Machico. > > > > > > > > > > > > I do have another Manuel de Noronha who is the son of Simao > > > Goncalves da Camara (and grandson of João Gonçalves da Cãmara- 2nd > > > Capitão Donatário) > > > > > > > > > I never heard about that other Manuel. But the first is referred in > > many books, because of his status as poet of the Cancioneiro. So he is > > one of Madeira literary glories. Visconde da Porto Cruz, among several > > others, refers his name along with the most prominent Madeiran > > writers. He transcends Madeira since he is included as a poet of the > > Cancioneiro, from Portugal, Continental. > > > > Regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, > > > Jose > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:42 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > Miguel, > > > As you know I am a Fernandes Veloza, a name that my maternal > > > grandfathers carried through for about 250 years. The Veloza name > > > came through a maternal line, Ana Cristina who married my great (5) > > > grandfather in 1746. My maternal grandfather was the only son in > > > that branch. He only had two daughters, > > but > > > managed to register my mother with the Fernandes Veloza name. The > > > last > > one! > > > So, I am assuming that this Manuel was at the very least a cousin. > > > As you know they were Lobatos, from Francisco Esteves Lobato. > > > On the Cairos, Francisco de Cairos da Orta marries in Caniço and his > > > my great (10) grandfather. His mother was a Cairos and she married > > > in > > camacha. > > > it seems that Clode list 4 or 5 lines for Cairos, but to me they all > > > seem to connect. These Cairos he seems to call them Vaz Cairos, for > > > Maria Cairos marries Gabriel Vaz. > > > Many Cairos settled in Caniço, or they became many. They had status > > > and some retained their status. But on a land based society where > > > the oldest son > > for > > > the most part inherited the land, the other children soon lost > > > status, > > and > > > in one or two generations that name was the only thing that remained > > > of that high status. > > > Of course we also share the Nóbrega line. I would have to trust the > > > published genealogies to link to Fernão Gonçalves de Nóbrega, but I > > > definitely descend from Gabriel de Nóbrega married to Francisca > > > Cunha around 1615. He was my great(8) grandfather. This Joana must > > > be a granddaughter. > > > > > > I also have a Dias Saldanha in the late 1500's. > > > Some Noronhas also married into my family, but they were women. Not > > > sure > > we > > > can link these Noronhas to Manuel de Noronha. I haven't seen > > > anything > > that > > > links them to the Caniço Noronha. I didn't know Manuel was a poet. > > > Never read any of his poems or songs. I knew" him through Count > > > Landi who > > doesn't > > > mention anything about his poetry. > > > Porrada existed in my times. Porra had other meanings in Madeira, > > including > > > the thin line foamy top of newly made wine. But there were others! > > > > > > Cheers, > > > José > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this > incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.89/2539 - Release Date: 12/02/09 > 07:33:00 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello Janette, >From which year is he? The name is not very common. It is very ancient. It is a toponymic. And the Travassos from the XVI th century were considered as nobility. regards, Miguel On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 9:10 AM, Janette Chun <[email protected]> wrote: > With the invaluable help of Luis Beal, I now have an ancestor named > Manuel Travassos. I've never come across this last name before - and > a quick internet search revealed that there are quite a few. Does > anyone know the origins of this name? Is it common in Madeira? > > Janette > > > > > > > > > On 2-Dec-09, at 9:40 PM, Janette Chun wrote: > > > Thanks Luis! No not gothic yet....LOL > > > > I will email the pdf files to the address you provided. Thanks again. > > Janette > > > > On 2-Dec-09, at 10:14 AM, Luis Beal wrote: > > > >> That was me. Just e-mail an attachment to [email protected] > >> 1600's I hope it isn't gothic cause that I can't read :) > >> > >> Luis Beal > >> > >> "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain > >> perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless > >> it is woven into the life of our ancestors." > >> Cicero, Roman orator > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Janette Chun <[email protected]> > >> To: PRT-MADEIRA <[email protected]> > >> Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 9:27:18 AM > >> Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Help reading certificates > >> > >> Hello all, > >> > >> I've enjoyed the exchange of emails over the last few weeks. Great to > >> see the forum active again. > >> > >> I recall reading an offer to help read some certificates but can't > >> remember who : ( - old age! I recently received two certificates > >> from the 1600s which are a little difficult to decipher - I think > >> I've > >> sort of figured it out, but would welcome a second opinion as I'm not > >> familiar with some of the abbreviations. > >> > >> Thanks! > >> > >> Janette Chun > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] > >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > >> the body of the message > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] > >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > >> the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Miguel You keep up like this and I am going to have to get part of the family will! I have heard of the Duke but I don't know or remember where Praça de Saldanha in Lisbon is. However, may I accept your invitation, and God willing or "Oxalá que tenhamos boa saúde e tempo" and we shall meet for a celebration. On the Duke you are going to have to work that line for me. It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the Ferreiras, but it seems odd. On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! José, waiting for that manzanillo -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:43 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos Ok. José- So we have one more couple of ancestors in common! The name is Pedro. I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo Dias (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. Shall we meet for a coffee and a cup of manzanillo in Praça de Saldanha to celebrate? The Duke is still our cousin, after all ; -) Bitório was written according to the Northern (North of Portugal) accent. They still say baca for vaca, bino for vinho. And Bitório for Vitório or Vitorino. So he is Vitório or Vitorino Pires. Though the old and "wrong" (wrong for southerners) Bitório is endearing. Miguel On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > And... > > On Dias Saldanha ( can't decipher his first name) who married Ana > Henriques, but I can't find that certificate, his son is Diogo Dias who > marries Maria Ferreira in Caniço, 1651, 902, 225V. > > On Filipa Do Quintal, this is how it is spelled in their daughters' > marriage certificate (Ana Pires) how do you spell her husband's name? > Bitorio or is it an old writing for Victorino? > > José >