Jeffrey, She remembers your mother. Dona Angela is a friend of my mother and I knew her husband. A lady never tells her age, but she looks great for her age. Funchal is a small place and São Gonçalo is not that far. José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of JAndrade1 Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 11:51 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Them Bones I have not seen Angela Camacho since 1966! I wonder if it is the same woman... she'd be in her 80s now I think. Doubt she'd remember me, though I know for sure she'd remember my Mom, at least my cousin Carlos Goncalves. I guess any further research on this will have to wait until I go there myself (maybe soon?)... The family I have there, that I know of, are on my mother's side of the family On Dec 4, 2009, at 11:24 AM, Fernandes, Jose wrote: Jeffrey, I thought you still had family back in the island. They might help you. São Gonçalo is where one of the cemeteries is. Mine died in 1970 and is no longer there, so it is a possibility for yours. I understand that you mother has a friend here, Angela. She is currently in Madeira. Is there any way you can connect to her? She might help. José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:prt-madeira- [email protected]] On Behalf Of JAndrade1 Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 10:03 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Them Bones My grandfather died in Funchal (Santa Maria Maior or Sao Goncalo) in 1976. I just recently found a document listing the grave number. From what you guys have said, then, his remains are no longer there? Since I only know a grave number, not even a cemetery, don't know if I could even find it, though I would love to somehow. Any ideas on how I could do that? On Nov 24, 2009, at 6:57 PM, Paulo Santos Perneta wrote: Well, now it is indeed that way, but it hasn't been always like that. My parents paid a perpetual tomb for my grand-father (though that system was abolished after the 25 April, and the remains were removed from the tomb without any compensation). Those who went to the ground also stayed in the ground, as could be seen by everyone some years ago, when large quantities of earth were removed from the Santo Antonio cemetery and dumped in a lot, to the joy of the kids of that neighborhood who turned it into a sort of "search for the treasure" theme park, with bone fights and all, until the place was closed down. In more ancient times, until the 19th century, people was buried in the churches and *stayed there forever*. They were never removed, and their remains still are there, under our feet, in the older churches. You can be pretty sure that they never were removed from the church, as it was considered a great sacrilege to bury human remains outside sacred ground, and believe me, people respected and defended that with their hearths. When the first cemeteries were built and the government issued the order to stop burying people in churches, it was a major uproar, and there were mutinies. So, until very recently, the usual way was to stay forever in the place were one was buried. At best the bones would be set aside to give way to a new corpse (they still do that, but you have to bribe the digger, so that he would bury the bones under the tomb, but then, only you would know that they are there). Paulo [email protected] wrote in Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:14:00 -0800: > Wow, it sure has become active here! > > A while back we had a discussion about burials in Madeira as well > as other > places. Apparently when a person died they were buried for > anywhere from 2 > years to 5 years and then dug up. The obvious reason for this is > that you > can only bury so many people on an island that is only 13 miles > wide and 35 > miles long. > > Where would their bones or anything else for that matter go after > that? > What determined the length of time in a grave, status? > > Thanks, > > Tom Freitas > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have not seen Angela Camacho since 1966! I wonder if it is the same woman... she'd be in her 80s now I think. Doubt she'd remember me, though I know for sure she'd remember my Mom, at least my cousin Carlos Goncalves. I guess any further research on this will have to wait until I go there myself (maybe soon?)... The family I have there, that I know of, are on my mother's side of the family On Dec 4, 2009, at 11:24 AM, Fernandes, Jose wrote: Jeffrey, I thought you still had family back in the island. They might help you. São Gonçalo is where one of the cemeteries is. Mine died in 1970 and is no longer there, so it is a possibility for yours. I understand that you mother has a friend here, Angela. She is currently in Madeira. Is there any way you can connect to her? She might help. José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:prt-madeira- [email protected]] On Behalf Of JAndrade1 Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 10:03 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Them Bones My grandfather died in Funchal (Santa Maria Maior or Sao Goncalo) in 1976. I just recently found a document listing the grave number. From what you guys have said, then, his remains are no longer there? Since I only know a grave number, not even a cemetery, don't know if I could even find it, though I would love to somehow. Any ideas on how I could do that? On Nov 24, 2009, at 6:57 PM, Paulo Santos Perneta wrote: Well, now it is indeed that way, but it hasn't been always like that. My parents paid a perpetual tomb for my grand-father (though that system was abolished after the 25 April, and the remains were removed from the tomb without any compensation). Those who went to the ground also stayed in the ground, as could be seen by everyone some years ago, when large quantities of earth were removed from the Santo Antonio cemetery and dumped in a lot, to the joy of the kids of that neighborhood who turned it into a sort of "search for the treasure" theme park, with bone fights and all, until the place was closed down. In more ancient times, until the 19th century, people was buried in the churches and *stayed there forever*. They were never removed, and their remains still are there, under our feet, in the older churches. You can be pretty sure that they never were removed from the church, as it was considered a great sacrilege to bury human remains outside sacred ground, and believe me, people respected and defended that with their hearths. When the first cemeteries were built and the government issued the order to stop burying people in churches, it was a major uproar, and there were mutinies. So, until very recently, the usual way was to stay forever in the place were one was buried. At best the bones would be set aside to give way to a new corpse (they still do that, but you have to bribe the digger, so that he would bury the bones under the tomb, but then, only you would know that they are there). Paulo [email protected] wrote in Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:14:00 -0800: > Wow, it sure has become active here! > > A while back we had a discussion about burials in Madeira as well > as other > places. Apparently when a person died they were buried for > anywhere from 2 > years to 5 years and then dug up. The obvious reason for this is > that you > can only bury so many people on an island that is only 13 miles > wide and 35 > miles long. > > Where would their bones or anything else for that matter go after > that? > What determined the length of time in a grave, status? > > Thanks, > > Tom Freitas > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Interestingly, it seems my paternal line is Sousa, the Andrade coming in through marriage. Now, I have had both a 37-marker Y-DNA and an mt- DNA test done by familytreeDNA.com and the closest matches (36/37) in the Y-DNA test were not to any of the Portuguese groups but to English/Irish surnames. Maybe this is because of this Sousa link? On Dec 4, 2009, at 11:09 AM, Fernandes, Jose wrote: Anyway, this is our Irish link! In part it would explain why Jerónimo comes to Caniço and marries a Sá, a whose daughter marries a Burgos and granddaughter marries a Viana de Cairos. And this is just my family! José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:prt-madeira- [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 10:56 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) OK. I retrieved the Sousas from Ribeira Grande, Miguel de Castro Henriques to prt-madeira show details Jan 22 To all who descend from the Burgos, Manuel César Furtado, a genealogist who knows a lot about Açores genealogy and medieval genealogy, kindly sent me this. Check the names in bold. Remember that Jerónimo de Sousa's, from Ribeira Grande, S.Miguel, Açores, ( m. Maria de Sá) parents were Simão Martins and Leonor de Sousa. It might be possible that Leonor Manuel is the mother of our Leonor de Sousa. Cronologically and topologically it's quite fitting. Then Simoa Martins married to Pedro Jorge and owner of a land with "foro" could be the mother of Simâo Martins, husband of Leonor de Sousa. CAPÍTULO 132.º DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE IREZA DE SOUSA § 1.º 1 - Ireza de Sousa, natural da Irlanda, no dizer de Frutuoso, e dama da rainha D. Leonor (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § I). Casou em Portugal com um fidalgo, cujo nome Frutuoso não soube, o qual era morador em Souzel, donde veio para a Ilha de S. Miguel por matar um corregedor, fixando residência com sua mulher em Vila Franca e depois no Telhal da Lomba da Ribeira Grande. Ireza de Sousa e seu marido vieram para esta Ilha no tempo do Capitão Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. Tiveram: 2 - João de Sousa, que esteve em África no tempo de el-rei D. Manuel, onde foi armado Cavaleiro (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § III e V). Casou com Isabel Alvares, mulher nobre. Tiveram: 3 - Baltazar Vaz de Sousa, foi morador na Ribeira Grande, ao Telhal e morreu em Porto Seguro, no Brasil (Vide os seus feitos no Cap.º XXIV do Livro IV das Saudades da Terra, e também no Cap.º LXI do mesmo Livro, onde se vê que era magarefe). Sua mulher morreu na freguesia da Matriz da Ribeira Grande a 13.4.1654 com testamento, sendo testamenteiro seu filho João de Sousa. Casou com Leonor Manuel. Tiveram: 4 - Nuno de Sousa, Capitão de ordenanças na Ribeira Grande, aí morador e em S. Pedro da Ribeira Seca onde morreu a 11.4.1610 (Frutuoso, Livro IV, Cap.º XXIV § VIII e Cap.º XLVI § II). De um livro da Misericórdia de Ponta Delgada de 1614, consta que os herdeiros de Nuno de Sousa, da Ribeira Grande, devem há muito tempo à Misericórdia de Ponta Delgada um foro e são elas as seguintes: Bárbara de Paiva, Isabel Paim, Madalena de Paiva e Heitor Fernandes, genro. A terra deste foro tinha sido de Simoa Martins, mulher de Pedro Jorge. Casou a primeira vez com Catarina de Moura, irmã do Padre Antonio de Moura, de Ponta Delgada, a qual morreu na freguesia Matriz da Ribeira Grande a 20.4.1560 com testamento em que deixa a terça a suas filhas e nomeando o marido testamenteiro. Casou a segunda vez com Francisca de Paiva . Teve da primeira mulher: 5 - Jerônima de Sousa, que casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande a 22.1.1569 com Brás do Rego Rodovalho. CAPÍTULO 18.º DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE GONÇALO DO REGO, O VELHO § 1.º 1 - Gonçalo do Rego, o Velho, veio para S. Miguel no tempo do Capitão Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. Era natural do Porto e veio de lá parece que já viúvo da primeira mulher e com três filhos dela (Frutuoso, Livro IV, Cap.º XXII). Casou a segunda vez com Isabel Pires. Teve do 2.º casamento: 2 - Manuel do Rego. Casou com Maria Jerônima. Tiveram: 3 - Braz do Rego Rodovalho, casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande, a 22.1.1569, com Jerônima de Sousa. Tiveram: 4 - Gonçalo do Rego de Sousa, que consta do termo de óbito de sua tia Beatriz de Sousa (falecida em S. Pedro Ribeira Grande a 1.2.1611), de quem foi herdeiro. Aí se diz ser filho de Jerônima de Sousa. Faleceu na Matriz de Ponta Delgada a 23.10.1659. Casou Maria da Cunha Teixeira, falecida na Matriz de Ponta Delgada a 10.2.1633, filha de Luís Martins e Isabel da Cunha. Tiveram: 5 - Calisto do Rego e Sousa, batizado na Matriz de Ponta Delgada a 18.10.1627. Casou em S. Pedro de Ponta Delgada, a 10.2.1649, com Maria Cabral de Melo. On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Miguel/Cecce > Re: burgos/viana etc. > Children of Maria de Cairos marry into all of these families, i.e. > Viana > de Cairos etc. At least in my family! > > José > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 9:01 AM > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:06 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Jose said: It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was >> dropped. His >> grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I >> know the >> Ferreiras, but it seems odd. >> >> Miguel said:I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from > Diogo >> Dias (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. >> >> Cece says: Looks like both Diogo and Manuel children decided that >> their >> mothers names were "better", because neither became Dias >> Saldanhas. Diogo >> Dias son is Antonio Ferreira and Manuel Dias son is Matias Andrade >> -so > both >> took Moms name instead. >> >> The point is that both Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias are the sons of >> Pedro > Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. So they were really sons of their > mothers > and fathers, and legitimate Saldanhas. The Dias comes from the g. > parent of > both Diogo and Manuel - Diogo Dias Saldanha, Ouvidor em Machico m. > to D. > Mara Catanho, dau, of António Vieira, meirinho, and D. Margarida > Catanho. > > 1.Diogo Saldanha. (Had lands in Santo da Serra,in 149..). > 1.2. Digo Saldanha. (Build the church in that "freguesia", around > 1520) > ..... > 1.3. Gui or Diogo Ennes Saldanha m. 1558 Isabel Fernandes (Quite > possibly > direct descendant of the former), they had: > 1.4. Diogo Dias Saldanha m. D. Maria Catanho, had from Concórdia > Fernandes > (black?): > 1.5. Pedro Dias Saldanha m. Ana Henriques,had > 1.6. Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias (Saldanha) > > > > Matias takes the name from her mother, indeed. The Andrades in that > time > was > a "better" name to use. The Andrades were still on their rise, and the > Saldanhas beggining their descent. I wonder why they did not use the > Noronha? But once again in that time the Andrade name supplanted the > Noronha. > Manuel Abranches de Soveral, the well known medieval genealogist > once told > me that the Henriques name was then prime choice. (Remember that the > Noronhas were Henriques de Noronha). Only later the Noronha name - > because > of the rise of Noronhas to the first rank of nobility . came to be > foremost. > > I know that this may sound a bit far-fetched in your hiper-democratic > countries. But the name sensitivity in Portugal was enormous. Still > exists, > but of course with the spread of education, nowadays the academic > titles > count more socially than the historical names. Even só, they still > carry > some weight, but nothing compared with former centuries. > > Anyway,in the 17 th century (and not only) for the sake of time > economy > sometimes the priests dropped the last name. In social use it was more > simple to be known by name and surname. Or even by name and > locality cf, > Tristão da Ilha. João da Ponta. Manuel da Fonte., etc. > > > >> Jose said: On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e >> Sousa, >> Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! >> >> Cece says-Tome de Burgos is my ancestor and Manuel de Viana (de >> Caires) > is >> his son in law-married to his daughter Antonia. >> I don't see any familial relationship to Diogo Dias yet, though it >> may be >> there - do you? >> > > I don't see any either. Maybe they did not have any. We already > discussed > the Burgos, I think. They had a link with the Calaças, And they > were most > probably from Spain. > > regards, > > Miguel > >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, >> Jose >> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:24 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos >> >> Miguel >> >> You keep up like this and I am going to have to get part of the >> family >> will! >> >> I have heard of the Duke but I don't know or remember where Praça de >> Saldanha in Lisbon is. However, may I accept your invitation, and God >> willing or "Oxalá que tenhamos boa saúde e tempo" and we shall >> meet for a >> celebration. >> >> On the Duke you are going to have to work that line for me. >> It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His grandson >> António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the >> Ferreiras, >> but it seems odd. >> On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, >> Manuel > de >> Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! >> >> José, waiting for that manzanillo >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de >> Castro >> Henriques >> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:43 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos >> >> Ok. José- >> >> So we have one more couple of ancestors in common! >> >> >> The name is Pedro. >> I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo Dias >> (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. >> >> Shall we meet for a coffee and a cup of manzanillo in Praça de >> Saldanha > to >> celebrate? >> >> The Duke is still our cousin, after all ; -) >> >> Bitório was written according to the Northern (North of Portugal) >> accent. >> They still say baca for vaca, bino for vinho. And Bitório for >> Vitório or >> Vitorino. >> >> So he is Vitório or Vitorino Pires. Though the old and >> "wrong" (wrong for >> southerners) Bitório is endearing. >> >> Miguel >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> And... >>> >>> On Dias Saldanha ( can't decipher his first name) who married Ana >>> Henriques, but I can't find that certificate, his son is Diogo Dias >>> who marries Maria Ferreira in Caniço, 1651, 902, 225V. >>> >>> On Filipa Do Quintal, this is how it is spelled in their daughters' >>> marriage certificate (Ana Pires) how do you spell her husband's >>> name? >>> Bitorio or is it an old writing for Victorino? >>> >>> José >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found >> in this >> incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: > 12/03/09 >> 07:32:00 >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

No, his DNA is direct paternal and there he is all madeiran ;-) (and of course wherever that orphan leads to) He is Italian also but that his his maternal side, so nothing to do with the DNA result. Cece Camara Soccer 4 All | Lacrosse 4 All Headquarters 1306 FM 1092 ste 105 | Missouri City, TX 77459 tel: 281.499.6665 x-402| fax: 281.499.9199 | email: [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: Fernandes, Jose [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 11:28 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: RE: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) Cecce, Ed is part Italian? It could also be all of those Scottish mercenaries that went all over Italy at the service of the Pope? Or it could be the Madeiran orphan. He might have been orphan for a reason. José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cece Camara Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 12:20 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) Funny...Ed's closest DNA marker matches are also all with English/Irish surname...We thought it had to do with his/our orphan great grandfather - but maybe it goes back further than that! Wouldn't it be wonderful if someday we understood any of this! ;-) Cece Camara Soccer 4 All | Lacrosse 4 All Headquarters 1306 FM 1092 ste 105 | Missouri City, TX 77459 tel: 281.499.6665 x-402| fax: 281.499.9199 | email: [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 11:15 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) Well...in DNA could be a lot of things. British occupation of Madeira for many years. Links to Madeirans families by marriage and otherwise. Also the possibility of Celtic and similar groups in the DNA of our ancestors from northern Portugal. Katherine Borges, my partner and really the head o of the Madeira DNA Project, has often said that my test result are somewhat different from others. For the moment I attribute that to Northern Portugal and Galicia. José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 12:02 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) Well, though I don't know nothing about these markers, that may mean something. Apart from that do you have any connection with the Drummonds? I also have Sousas from Calheta, but as they proceed from Afonsos from Calheta (17 th century) I can+t link them yet to older Sousas. On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:44 PM, JAndrade1 <[email protected]> wrote: > Interestingly, it seems my paternal line is Sousa, the Andrade coming > in through marriage. Now, I have had both a 37-marker Y-DNA and an mt- > DNA test done by familytreeDNA.com and the closest matches (36/37) in > the Y-DNA test were not to any of the Portuguese groups but to > English/Irish surnames. Maybe this is because of this Sousa link? > > On Dec 4, 2009, at 11:09 AM, Fernandes, Jose wrote: > > Anyway, this is our Irish link! In part it would explain why Jerónimo > comes to Caniço and marries a Sá, a whose daughter marries a Burgos > and granddaughter marries a Viana de Cairos. And this is just my family! > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:prt-madeira- > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 10:56 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) > > OK. I retrieved the Sousas from Ribeira Grande, > Miguel de Castro Henriques to prt-madeira > show details Jan 22 > > To all who descend from the Burgos, > > Manuel César Furtado, a genealogist who knows a lot about Açores > genealogy > and medieval genealogy, kindly sent me this. > > Check the names in bold. > > Remember that Jerónimo de Sousa's, from Ribeira Grande, S.Miguel, > Açores, ( > m. Maria de Sá) parents were Simão Martins and Leonor de Sousa. > > It might be possible that Leonor Manuel is the mother of our Leonor > de Sousa. > Cronologically and topologically it's quite fitting. > > > Then Simoa Martins married to Pedro Jorge and owner of a land with > "foro" > could be the mother of Simâo Martins, husband of Leonor de Sousa. > > > > > > > CAPÍTULO 132.º > DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE IREZA DE SOUSA > § 1.º > 1 - Ireza de Sousa, natural da Irlanda, no dizer de Frutuoso, e dama da > rainha D. Leonor (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § I). Casou em > Portugal com > um fidalgo, cujo nome Frutuoso não soube, o qual era morador em Souzel, > donde veio para a Ilha de S. Miguel por matar um corregedor, fixando > residência com sua mulher em Vila Franca e depois no Telhal da Lomba da > Ribeira Grande. Ireza de Sousa e seu marido vieram para esta Ilha no > tempo > do Capitão Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. > Tiveram: > 2 - João de Sousa, que esteve em África no tempo de el-rei D. Manuel, > onde > foi armado Cavaleiro (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § III e V). Casou com > Isabel Alvares, mulher nobre. > Tiveram: > 3 - Baltazar Vaz de Sousa, foi morador na Ribeira Grande, ao Telhal e > morreu > em Porto Seguro, no Brasil (Vide os seus feitos no Cap.º XXIV do > Livro IV > das Saudades da Terra, e também no Cap.º LXI do mesmo Livro, onde se > vê que > era magarefe). Sua mulher morreu na freguesia da Matriz da Ribeira > Grande a > 13.4.1654 com testamento, sendo testamenteiro seu filho João de > Sousa. Casou > com Leonor Manuel. > Tiveram: > 4 - Nuno de Sousa, Capitão de ordenanças na Ribeira Grande, aí > morador e em > S. Pedro da Ribeira Seca onde morreu a 11.4.1610 (Frutuoso, Livro IV, > Cap.º > XXIV § VIII e Cap.º XLVI § II). De um livro da Misericórdia de Ponta > Delgada > de 1614, consta que os herdeiros de Nuno de Sousa, da Ribeira Grande, > devem > há muito tempo à Misericórdia de Ponta Delgada um foro e são elas as > seguintes: Bárbara de Paiva, Isabel Paim, Madalena de Paiva e Heitor > Fernandes, genro. A terra deste foro tinha sido de Simoa Martins, > mulher de > Pedro Jorge. Casou a primeira vez com Catarina de Moura, irmã do Padre > Antonio de Moura, de Ponta Delgada, a qual morreu na freguesia Matriz da > Ribeira Grande a 20.4.1560 com testamento em que deixa a terça a suas > filhas > e nomeando o marido testamenteiro. Casou a segunda vez com Francisca de > Paiva . > Teve da primeira mulher: > 5 - Jerônima de Sousa, que casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande a > 22.1.1569 com > Brás do Rego Rodovalho. > > CAPÍTULO 18.º > DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE GONÇALO DO REGO, O VELHO > § 1.º > 1 - Gonçalo do Rego, o Velho, veio para S. Miguel no tempo do Capitão > Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. Era natural do Porto e veio de lá > parece > que já viúvo da primeira mulher e com três filhos dela (Frutuoso, > Livro IV, > Cap.º XXII). Casou a segunda vez com Isabel Pires. > Teve do 2.º casamento: > 2 - Manuel do Rego. Casou com Maria Jerônima. > Tiveram: > 3 - Braz do Rego Rodovalho, casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande, a > 22.1.1569, > com Jerônima de Sousa. > Tiveram: > 4 - Gonçalo do Rego de Sousa, que consta do termo de óbito de sua tia > Beatriz de Sousa (falecida em S. Pedro Ribeira Grande a 1.2.1611), de > quem > foi herdeiro. Aí se diz ser filho de Jerônima de Sousa. Faleceu na > Matriz de > Ponta Delgada a 23.10.1659. Casou Maria da Cunha Teixeira, falecida na > Matriz de Ponta Delgada a 10.2.1633, filha de Luís Martins e Isabel da > Cunha. > Tiveram: > 5 - Calisto do Rego e Sousa, batizado na Matriz de Ponta Delgada a > 18.10.1627. Casou em S. Pedro de Ponta Delgada, a 10.2.1649, com Maria > Cabral de Melo. > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel/Cecce > > Re: burgos/viana etc. > > Children of Maria de Cairos marry into all of these families, i.e. > > Viana > > de Cairos etc. At least in my family! > > > > José > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 9:01 AM > > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:06 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > >> Jose said: It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was > >> dropped. His > >> grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I > >> know the > >> Ferreiras, but it seems odd. > >> > >> Miguel said:I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from > > Diogo > >> Dias (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > >> > >> Cece says: Looks like both Diogo and Manuel children decided that > >> their > >> mothers names were "better", because neither became Dias > >> Saldanhas. Diogo > >> Dias son is Antonio Ferreira and Manuel Dias son is Matias Andrade > >> -so > > both > >> took Moms name instead. > >> > >> The point is that both Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias are the sons of > >> Pedro > > Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. So they were really sons of their > > mothers > > and fathers, and legitimate Saldanhas. The Dias comes from the g. > > parent of > > both Diogo and Manuel - Diogo Dias Saldanha, Ouvidor em Machico m. > > to D. > > Mara Catanho, dau, of António Vieira, meirinho, and D. Margarida > > Catanho. > > > > 1.Diogo Saldanha. (Had lands in Santo da Serra,in 149..). > > 1.2. Digo Saldanha. (Build the church in that "freguesia", around > > 1520) > > ..... > > 1.3. Gui or Diogo Ennes Saldanha m. 1558 Isabel Fernandes (Quite > > possibly > > direct descendant of the former), they had: > > 1.4. Diogo Dias Saldanha m. D. Maria Catanho, had from Concórdia > > Fernandes > > (black?): > > 1.5. Pedro Dias Saldanha m. Ana Henriques,had > > 1.6. Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias (Saldanha) > > > > > > > > Matias takes the name from her mother, indeed. The Andrades in that > > time > > was > > a "better" name to use. The Andrades were still on their rise, and the > > Saldanhas beggining their descent. I wonder why they did not use the > > Noronha? But once again in that time the Andrade name supplanted the > > Noronha. > > Manuel Abranches de Soveral, the well known medieval genealogist > > once told > > me that the Henriques name was then prime choice. (Remember that the > > Noronhas were Henriques de Noronha). Only later the Noronha name - > > because > > of the rise of Noronhas to the first rank of nobility . came to be > > foremost. > > > > I know that this may sound a bit far-fetched in your hiper-democratic > > countries. But the name sensitivity in Portugal was enormous. Still > > exists, > > but of course with the spread of education, nowadays the academic > > titles > > count more socially than the historical names. Even só, they still > > carry > > some weight, but nothing compared with former centuries. > > > > Anyway,in the 17 th century (and not only) for the sake of time > > economy > > sometimes the priests dropped the last name. In social use it was more > > simple to be known by name and surname. Or even by name and > > locality cf, > > Tristão da Ilha. João da Ponta. Manuel da Fonte., etc. > > > > > > > >> Jose said: On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e > >> Sousa, > >> Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > >> > >> Cece says-Tome de Burgos is my ancestor and Manuel de Viana (de > >> Caires) > > is > >> his son in law-married to his daughter Antonia. > >> I don't see any familial relationship to Diogo Dias yet, though it > >> may be > >> there - do you? > >> > > > > I don't see any either. Maybe they did not have any. We already > > discussed > > the Burgos, I think. They had a link with the Calaças, And they > > were most > > probably from Spain. > > > > regards, > > > > Miguel > > > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, > >> Jose > >> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:24 AM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > >> > >> Miguel > >> > >> You keep up like this and I am going to have to get part of the > >> family > >> will! > >> > >> I have heard of the Duke but I don't know or remember where Praça de > >> Saldanha in Lisbon is. However, may I accept your invitation, and God > >> willing or "Oxalá que tenhamos boa saúde e tempo" and we shall > >> meet for a > >> celebration. > >> > >> On the Duke you are going to have to work that line for me. > >> It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His grandson > >> António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the > >> Ferreiras, > >> but it seems odd. > >> On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, > >> Manuel > > de > >> Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > >> > >> José, waiting for that manzanillo > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > >> Castro > >> Henriques > >> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:43 AM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > >> > >> Ok. José- > >> > >> So we have one more couple of ancestors in common! > >> > >> > >> The name is Pedro. > >> I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo Dias > >> (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > >> > >> Shall we meet for a coffee and a cup of manzanillo in Praça de > >> Saldanha > > to > >> celebrate? > >> > >> The Duke is still our cousin, after all ; -) > >> > >> Bitório was written according to the Northern (North of Portugal) > >> accent. > >> They still say baca for vaca, bino for vinho. And Bitório for > >> Vitório or > >> Vitorino. > >> > >> So he is Vitório or Vitorino Pires. Though the old and > >> "wrong" (wrong for > >> southerners) Bitório is endearing. > >> > >> Miguel > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > >> [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >>> And... > >>> > >>> On Dias Saldanha ( can't decipher his first name) who married Ana > >>> Henriques, but I can't find that certificate, his son is Diogo Dias > >>> who marries Maria Ferreira in Caniço, 1651, 902, 225V. > >>> > >>> On Filipa Do Quintal, this is how it is spelled in their daughters' > >>> marriage certificate (Ana Pires) how do you spell her husband's > >>> name? > >>> Bitorio or is it an old writing for Victorino? > >>> > >>> José > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found > >> in this > >> incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: > > 12/03/09 > >> 07:32:00 > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.93/2544 - Release Date: 12/04/09 07:32:00 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.93/2544 - Release Date: 12/04/09 07:32:00

Jeffrey, I thought you still had family back in the island. They might help you. São Gonçalo is where one of the cemeteries is. Mine died in 1970 and is no longer there, so it is a possibility for yours. I understand that you mother has a friend here, Angela. She is currently in Madeira. Is there any way you can connect to her? She might help. José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of JAndrade1 Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 10:03 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Them Bones My grandfather died in Funchal (Santa Maria Maior or Sao Goncalo) in 1976. I just recently found a document listing the grave number. From what you guys have said, then, his remains are no longer there? Since I only know a grave number, not even a cemetery, don't know if I could even find it, though I would love to somehow. Any ideas on how I could do that? On Nov 24, 2009, at 6:57 PM, Paulo Santos Perneta wrote: Well, now it is indeed that way, but it hasn't been always like that. My parents paid a perpetual tomb for my grand-father (though that system was abolished after the 25 April, and the remains were removed from the tomb without any compensation). Those who went to the ground also stayed in the ground, as could be seen by everyone some years ago, when large quantities of earth were removed from the Santo Antonio cemetery and dumped in a lot, to the joy of the kids of that neighborhood who turned it into a sort of "search for the treasure" theme park, with bone fights and all, until the place was closed down. In more ancient times, until the 19th century, people was buried in the churches and *stayed there forever*. They were never removed, and their remains still are there, under our feet, in the older churches. You can be pretty sure that they never were removed from the church, as it was considered a great sacrilege to bury human remains outside sacred ground, and believe me, people respected and defended that with their hearths. When the first cemeteries were built and the government issued the order to stop burying people in churches, it was a major uproar, and there were mutinies. So, until very recently, the usual way was to stay forever in the place were one was buried. At best the bones would be set aside to give way to a new corpse (they still do that, but you have to bribe the digger, so that he would bury the bones under the tomb, but then, only you would know that they are there). Paulo [email protected] wrote in Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:14:00 -0800: > Wow, it sure has become active here! > > A while back we had a discussion about burials in Madeira as well > as other > places. Apparently when a person died they were buried for > anywhere from 2 > years to 5 years and then dug up. The obvious reason for this is > that you > can only bury so many people on an island that is only 13 miles > wide and 35 > miles long. > > Where would their bones or anything else for that matter go after > that? > What determined the length of time in a grave, status? > > Thanks, > > Tom Freitas > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Funny...Ed's closest DNA marker matches are also all with English/Irish surname...We thought it had to do with his/our orphan great grandfather - but maybe it goes back further than that! Wouldn't it be wonderful if someday we understood any of this! ;-) Cece Camara Soccer 4 All | Lacrosse 4 All Headquarters 1306 FM 1092 ste 105 | Missouri City, TX 77459 tel: 281.499.6665 x-402| fax: 281.499.9199 | email: [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 11:15 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) Well...in DNA could be a lot of things. British occupation of Madeira for many years. Links to Madeirans families by marriage and otherwise. Also the possibility of Celtic and similar groups in the DNA of our ancestors from northern Portugal. Katherine Borges, my partner and really the head o of the Madeira DNA Project, has often said that my test result are somewhat different from others. For the moment I attribute that to Northern Portugal and Galicia. José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 12:02 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) Well, though I don't know nothing about these markers, that may mean something. Apart from that do you have any connection with the Drummonds? I also have Sousas from Calheta, but as they proceed from Afonsos from Calheta (17 th century) I can+t link them yet to older Sousas. On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:44 PM, JAndrade1 <[email protected]> wrote: > Interestingly, it seems my paternal line is Sousa, the Andrade coming > in through marriage. Now, I have had both a 37-marker Y-DNA and an mt- > DNA test done by familytreeDNA.com and the closest matches (36/37) in > the Y-DNA test were not to any of the Portuguese groups but to > English/Irish surnames. Maybe this is because of this Sousa link? > > On Dec 4, 2009, at 11:09 AM, Fernandes, Jose wrote: > > Anyway, this is our Irish link! In part it would explain why Jerónimo > comes to Caniço and marries a Sá, a whose daughter marries a Burgos > and granddaughter marries a Viana de Cairos. And this is just my family! > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:prt-madeira- > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 10:56 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) > > OK. I retrieved the Sousas from Ribeira Grande, > Miguel de Castro Henriques to prt-madeira > show details Jan 22 > > To all who descend from the Burgos, > > Manuel César Furtado, a genealogist who knows a lot about Açores > genealogy > and medieval genealogy, kindly sent me this. > > Check the names in bold. > > Remember that Jerónimo de Sousa's, from Ribeira Grande, S.Miguel, > Açores, ( > m. Maria de Sá) parents were Simão Martins and Leonor de Sousa. > > It might be possible that Leonor Manuel is the mother of our Leonor > de Sousa. > Cronologically and topologically it's quite fitting. > > > Then Simoa Martins married to Pedro Jorge and owner of a land with > "foro" > could be the mother of Simâo Martins, husband of Leonor de Sousa. > > > > > > > CAPÍTULO 132.º > DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE IREZA DE SOUSA > § 1.º > 1 - Ireza de Sousa, natural da Irlanda, no dizer de Frutuoso, e dama da > rainha D. Leonor (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § I). Casou em > Portugal com > um fidalgo, cujo nome Frutuoso não soube, o qual era morador em Souzel, > donde veio para a Ilha de S. Miguel por matar um corregedor, fixando > residência com sua mulher em Vila Franca e depois no Telhal da Lomba da > Ribeira Grande. Ireza de Sousa e seu marido vieram para esta Ilha no > tempo > do Capitão Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. > Tiveram: > 2 - João de Sousa, que esteve em África no tempo de el-rei D. Manuel, > onde > foi armado Cavaleiro (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § III e V). Casou com > Isabel Alvares, mulher nobre. > Tiveram: > 3 - Baltazar Vaz de Sousa, foi morador na Ribeira Grande, ao Telhal e > morreu > em Porto Seguro, no Brasil (Vide os seus feitos no Cap.º XXIV do > Livro IV > das Saudades da Terra, e também no Cap.º LXI do mesmo Livro, onde se > vê que > era magarefe). Sua mulher morreu na freguesia da Matriz da Ribeira > Grande a > 13.4.1654 com testamento, sendo testamenteiro seu filho João de > Sousa. Casou > com Leonor Manuel. > Tiveram: > 4 - Nuno de Sousa, Capitão de ordenanças na Ribeira Grande, aí > morador e em > S. Pedro da Ribeira Seca onde morreu a 11.4.1610 (Frutuoso, Livro IV, > Cap.º > XXIV § VIII e Cap.º XLVI § II). De um livro da Misericórdia de Ponta > Delgada > de 1614, consta que os herdeiros de Nuno de Sousa, da Ribeira Grande, > devem > há muito tempo à Misericórdia de Ponta Delgada um foro e são elas as > seguintes: Bárbara de Paiva, Isabel Paim, Madalena de Paiva e Heitor > Fernandes, genro. A terra deste foro tinha sido de Simoa Martins, > mulher de > Pedro Jorge. Casou a primeira vez com Catarina de Moura, irmã do Padre > Antonio de Moura, de Ponta Delgada, a qual morreu na freguesia Matriz da > Ribeira Grande a 20.4.1560 com testamento em que deixa a terça a suas > filhas > e nomeando o marido testamenteiro. Casou a segunda vez com Francisca de > Paiva . > Teve da primeira mulher: > 5 - Jerônima de Sousa, que casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande a > 22.1.1569 com > Brás do Rego Rodovalho. > > CAPÍTULO 18.º > DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE GONÇALO DO REGO, O VELHO > § 1.º > 1 - Gonçalo do Rego, o Velho, veio para S. Miguel no tempo do Capitão > Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. Era natural do Porto e veio de lá > parece > que já viúvo da primeira mulher e com três filhos dela (Frutuoso, > Livro IV, > Cap.º XXII). Casou a segunda vez com Isabel Pires. > Teve do 2.º casamento: > 2 - Manuel do Rego. Casou com Maria Jerônima. > Tiveram: > 3 - Braz do Rego Rodovalho, casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande, a > 22.1.1569, > com Jerônima de Sousa. > Tiveram: > 4 - Gonçalo do Rego de Sousa, que consta do termo de óbito de sua tia > Beatriz de Sousa (falecida em S. Pedro Ribeira Grande a 1.2.1611), de > quem > foi herdeiro. Aí se diz ser filho de Jerônima de Sousa. Faleceu na > Matriz de > Ponta Delgada a 23.10.1659. Casou Maria da Cunha Teixeira, falecida na > Matriz de Ponta Delgada a 10.2.1633, filha de Luís Martins e Isabel da > Cunha. > Tiveram: > 5 - Calisto do Rego e Sousa, batizado na Matriz de Ponta Delgada a > 18.10.1627. Casou em S. Pedro de Ponta Delgada, a 10.2.1649, com Maria > Cabral de Melo. > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel/Cecce > > Re: burgos/viana etc. > > Children of Maria de Cairos marry into all of these families, i.e. > > Viana > > de Cairos etc. At least in my family! > > > > José > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 9:01 AM > > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:06 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > >> Jose said: It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was > >> dropped. His > >> grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I > >> know the > >> Ferreiras, but it seems odd. > >> > >> Miguel said:I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from > > Diogo > >> Dias (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > >> > >> Cece says: Looks like both Diogo and Manuel children decided that > >> their > >> mothers names were "better", because neither became Dias > >> Saldanhas. Diogo > >> Dias son is Antonio Ferreira and Manuel Dias son is Matias Andrade > >> -so > > both > >> took Moms name instead. > >> > >> The point is that both Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias are the sons of > >> Pedro > > Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. So they were really sons of their > > mothers > > and fathers, and legitimate Saldanhas. The Dias comes from the g. > > parent of > > both Diogo and Manuel - Diogo Dias Saldanha, Ouvidor em Machico m. > > to D. > > Mara Catanho, dau, of António Vieira, meirinho, and D. Margarida > > Catanho. > > > > 1.Diogo Saldanha. (Had lands in Santo da Serra,in 149..). > > 1.2. Digo Saldanha. (Build the church in that "freguesia", around > > 1520) > > ..... > > 1.3. Gui or Diogo Ennes Saldanha m. 1558 Isabel Fernandes (Quite > > possibly > > direct descendant of the former), they had: > > 1.4. Diogo Dias Saldanha m. D. Maria Catanho, had from Concórdia > > Fernandes > > (black?): > > 1.5. Pedro Dias Saldanha m. Ana Henriques,had > > 1.6. Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias (Saldanha) > > > > > > > > Matias takes the name from her mother, indeed. The Andrades in that > > time > > was > > a "better" name to use. The Andrades were still on their rise, and the > > Saldanhas beggining their descent. I wonder why they did not use the > > Noronha? But once again in that time the Andrade name supplanted the > > Noronha. > > Manuel Abranches de Soveral, the well known medieval genealogist > > once told > > me that the Henriques name was then prime choice. (Remember that the > > Noronhas were Henriques de Noronha). Only later the Noronha name - > > because > > of the rise of Noronhas to the first rank of nobility . came to be > > foremost. > > > > I know that this may sound a bit far-fetched in your hiper-democratic > > countries. But the name sensitivity in Portugal was enormous. Still > > exists, > > but of course with the spread of education, nowadays the academic > > titles > > count more socially than the historical names. Even só, they still > > carry > > some weight, but nothing compared with former centuries. > > > > Anyway,in the 17 th century (and not only) for the sake of time > > economy > > sometimes the priests dropped the last name. In social use it was more > > simple to be known by name and surname. Or even by name and > > locality cf, > > Tristão da Ilha. João da Ponta. Manuel da Fonte., etc. > > > > > > > >> Jose said: On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e > >> Sousa, > >> Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > >> > >> Cece says-Tome de Burgos is my ancestor and Manuel de Viana (de > >> Caires) > > is > >> his son in law-married to his daughter Antonia. > >> I don't see any familial relationship to Diogo Dias yet, though it > >> may be > >> there - do you? > >> > > > > I don't see any either. Maybe they did not have any. We already > > discussed > > the Burgos, I think. They had a link with the Calaças, And they > > were most > > probably from Spain. > > > > regards, > > > > Miguel > > > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, > >> Jose > >> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:24 AM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > >> > >> Miguel > >> > >> You keep up like this and I am going to have to get part of the > >> family > >> will! > >> > >> I have heard of the Duke but I don't know or remember where Praça de > >> Saldanha in Lisbon is. However, may I accept your invitation, and God > >> willing or "Oxalá que tenhamos boa saúde e tempo" and we shall > >> meet for a > >> celebration. > >> > >> On the Duke you are going to have to work that line for me. > >> It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His grandson > >> António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the > >> Ferreiras, > >> but it seems odd. > >> On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, > >> Manuel > > de > >> Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > >> > >> José, waiting for that manzanillo > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > >> Castro > >> Henriques > >> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:43 AM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > >> > >> Ok. José- > >> > >> So we have one more couple of ancestors in common! > >> > >> > >> The name is Pedro. > >> I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo Dias > >> (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > >> > >> Shall we meet for a coffee and a cup of manzanillo in Praça de > >> Saldanha > > to > >> celebrate? > >> > >> The Duke is still our cousin, after all ; -) > >> > >> Bitório was written according to the Northern (North of Portugal) > >> accent. > >> They still say baca for vaca, bino for vinho. And Bitório for > >> Vitório or > >> Vitorino. > >> > >> So he is Vitório or Vitorino Pires. Though the old and > >> "wrong" (wrong for > >> southerners) Bitório is endearing. > >> > >> Miguel > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > >> [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >>> And... > >>> > >>> On Dias Saldanha ( can't decipher his first name) who married Ana > >>> Henriques, but I can't find that certificate, his son is Diogo Dias > >>> who marries Maria Ferreira in Caniço, 1651, 902, 225V. > >>> > >>> On Filipa Do Quintal, this is how it is spelled in their daughters' > >>> marriage certificate (Ana Pires) how do you spell her husband's > >>> name? > >>> Bitorio or is it an old writing for Victorino? > >>> > >>> José > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found > >> in this > >> incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: > > 12/03/09 > >> 07:32:00 > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.93/2544 - Release Date: 12/04/09 07:32:00

Anyway, this is our Irish link! In part it would explain why Jerónimo comes to Caniço and marries a Sá, a whose daughter marries a Burgos and granddaughter marries a Viana de Cairos. And this is just my family! José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 10:56 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) OK. I retrieved the Sousas from Ribeira Grande, Miguel de Castro Henriques to prt-madeira show details Jan 22 To all who descend from the Burgos, Manuel César Furtado, a genealogist who knows a lot about Açores genealogy and medieval genealogy, kindly sent me this. Check the names in bold. Remember that Jerónimo de Sousa's, from Ribeira Grande, S.Miguel, Açores, ( m. Maria de Sá) parents were Simão Martins and Leonor de Sousa. It might be possible that Leonor Manuel is the mother of our Leonor de Sousa. Cronologically and topologically it's quite fitting. Then Simoa Martins married to Pedro Jorge and owner of a land with "foro" could be the mother of Simâo Martins, husband of Leonor de Sousa. CAPÍTULO 132.º DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE IREZA DE SOUSA § 1.º 1 - Ireza de Sousa, natural da Irlanda, no dizer de Frutuoso, e dama da rainha D. Leonor (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § I). Casou em Portugal com um fidalgo, cujo nome Frutuoso não soube, o qual era morador em Souzel, donde veio para a Ilha de S. Miguel por matar um corregedor, fixando residência com sua mulher em Vila Franca e depois no Telhal da Lomba da Ribeira Grande. Ireza de Sousa e seu marido vieram para esta Ilha no tempo do Capitão Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. Tiveram: 2 - João de Sousa, que esteve em África no tempo de el-rei D. Manuel, onde foi armado Cavaleiro (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § III e V). Casou com Isabel Alvares, mulher nobre. Tiveram: 3 - Baltazar Vaz de Sousa, foi morador na Ribeira Grande, ao Telhal e morreu em Porto Seguro, no Brasil (Vide os seus feitos no Cap.º XXIV do Livro IV das Saudades da Terra, e também no Cap.º LXI do mesmo Livro, onde se vê que era magarefe). Sua mulher morreu na freguesia da Matriz da Ribeira Grande a 13.4.1654 com testamento, sendo testamenteiro seu filho João de Sousa. Casou com Leonor Manuel. Tiveram: 4 - Nuno de Sousa, Capitão de ordenanças na Ribeira Grande, aí morador e em S. Pedro da Ribeira Seca onde morreu a 11.4.1610 (Frutuoso, Livro IV, Cap.º XXIV § VIII e Cap.º XLVI § II). De um livro da Misericórdia de Ponta Delgada de 1614, consta que os herdeiros de Nuno de Sousa, da Ribeira Grande, devem há muito tempo à Misericórdia de Ponta Delgada um foro e são elas as seguintes: Bárbara de Paiva, Isabel Paim, Madalena de Paiva e Heitor Fernandes, genro. A terra deste foro tinha sido de Simoa Martins, mulher de Pedro Jorge. Casou a primeira vez com Catarina de Moura, irmã do Padre Antonio de Moura, de Ponta Delgada, a qual morreu na freguesia Matriz da Ribeira Grande a 20.4.1560 com testamento em que deixa a terça a suas filhas e nomeando o marido testamenteiro. Casou a segunda vez com Francisca de Paiva . Teve da primeira mulher: 5 - Jerônima de Sousa, que casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande a 22.1.1569 com Brás do Rego Rodovalho. CAPÍTULO 18.º DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE GONÇALO DO REGO, O VELHO § 1.º 1 - Gonçalo do Rego, o Velho, veio para S. Miguel no tempo do Capitão Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. Era natural do Porto e veio de lá parece que já viúvo da primeira mulher e com três filhos dela (Frutuoso, Livro IV, Cap.º XXII). Casou a segunda vez com Isabel Pires. Teve do 2.º casamento: 2 - Manuel do Rego. Casou com Maria Jerônima. Tiveram: 3 - Braz do Rego Rodovalho, casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande, a 22.1.1569, com Jerônima de Sousa. Tiveram: 4 - Gonçalo do Rego de Sousa, que consta do termo de óbito de sua tia Beatriz de Sousa (falecida em S. Pedro Ribeira Grande a 1.2.1611), de quem foi herdeiro. Aí se diz ser filho de Jerônima de Sousa. Faleceu na Matriz de Ponta Delgada a 23.10.1659. Casou Maria da Cunha Teixeira, falecida na Matriz de Ponta Delgada a 10.2.1633, filha de Luís Martins e Isabel da Cunha. Tiveram: 5 - Calisto do Rego e Sousa, batizado na Matriz de Ponta Delgada a 18.10.1627. Casou em S. Pedro de Ponta Delgada, a 10.2.1649, com Maria Cabral de Melo. On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Miguel/Cecce > Re: burgos/viana etc. > Children of Maria de Cairos marry into all of these families, i.e. Viana > de Cairos etc. At least in my family! > > José > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 9:01 AM > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:06 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Jose said: It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His > > grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the > > Ferreiras, but it seems odd. > > > > Miguel said:I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from > Diogo > > Dias (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > > > Cece says: Looks like both Diogo and Manuel children decided that their > > mothers names were "better", because neither became Dias Saldanhas. Diogo > > Dias son is Antonio Ferreira and Manuel Dias son is Matias Andrade -so > both > > took Moms name instead. > > > > The point is that both Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias are the sons of Pedro > Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. So they were really sons of their mothers > and fathers, and legitimate Saldanhas. The Dias comes from the g. parent of > both Diogo and Manuel - Diogo Dias Saldanha, Ouvidor em Machico m. to D. > Mara Catanho, dau, of António Vieira, meirinho, and D. Margarida Catanho. > > 1.Diogo Saldanha. (Had lands in Santo da Serra,in 149..). > 1.2. Digo Saldanha. (Build the church in that "freguesia", around 1520) > ..... > 1.3. Gui or Diogo Ennes Saldanha m. 1558 Isabel Fernandes (Quite possibly > direct descendant of the former), they had: > 1.4. Diogo Dias Saldanha m. D. Maria Catanho, had from Concórdia Fernandes > (black?): > 1.5. Pedro Dias Saldanha m. Ana Henriques,had > 1.6. Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias (Saldanha) > > > > Matias takes the name from her mother, indeed. The Andrades in that time > was > a "better" name to use. The Andrades were still on their rise, and the > Saldanhas beggining their descent. I wonder why they did not use the > Noronha? But once again in that time the Andrade name supplanted the > Noronha. > Manuel Abranches de Soveral, the well known medieval genealogist once told > me that the Henriques name was then prime choice. (Remember that the > Noronhas were Henriques de Noronha). Only later the Noronha name - because > of the rise of Noronhas to the first rank of nobility . came to be > foremost. > > I know that this may sound a bit far-fetched in your hiper-democratic > countries. But the name sensitivity in Portugal was enormous. Still exists, > but of course with the spread of education, nowadays the academic titles > count more socially than the historical names. Even só, they still carry > some weight, but nothing compared with former centuries. > > Anyway,in the 17 th century (and not only) for the sake of time economy > sometimes the priests dropped the last name. In social use it was more > simple to be known by name and surname. Or even by name and locality cf, > Tristão da Ilha. João da Ponta. Manuel da Fonte., etc. > > > > > Jose said: On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e > > Sousa, > > Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > > > Cece says-Tome de Burgos is my ancestor and Manuel de Viana (de Caires) > is > > his son in law-married to his daughter Antonia. > > I don't see any familial relationship to Diogo Dias yet, though it may be > > there - do you? > > > > I don't see any either. Maybe they did not have any. We already discussed > the Burgos, I think. They had a link with the Calaças, And they were most > probably from Spain. > > regards, > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose > > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:24 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > Miguel > > > > You keep up like this and I am going to have to get part of the family > > will! > > > > I have heard of the Duke but I don't know or remember where Praça de > > Saldanha in Lisbon is. However, may I accept your invitation, and God > > willing or "Oxalá que tenhamos boa saúde e tempo" and we shall meet for a > > celebration. > > > > On the Duke you are going to have to work that line for me. > > It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His grandson > > António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the Ferreiras, > > but it seems odd. > > On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, Manuel > de > > Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > > > José, waiting for that manzanillo > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:43 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > Ok. José- > > > > So we have one more couple of ancestors in common! > > > > > > The name is Pedro. > > I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo Dias > > (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > > > Shall we meet for a coffee and a cup of manzanillo in Praça de Saldanha > to > > celebrate? > > > > The Duke is still our cousin, after all ; -) > > > > Bitório was written according to the Northern (North of Portugal) accent. > > They still say baca for vaca, bino for vinho. And Bitório for Vitório or > > Vitorino. > > > > So he is Vitório or Vitorino Pires. Though the old and "wrong" (wrong for > > southerners) Bitório is endearing. > > > > Miguel > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > And... > > > > > > On Dias Saldanha ( can't decipher his first name) who married Ana > > > Henriques, but I can't find that certificate, his son is Diogo Dias > > > who marries Maria Ferreira in Caniço, 1651, 902, 225V. > > > > > > On Filipa Do Quintal, this is how it is spelled in their daughters' > > > marriage certificate (Ana Pires) how do you spell her husband's name? > > > Bitorio or is it an old writing for Victorino? > > > > > > José > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this > > incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: > 12/03/09 > > 07:32:00 > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Stranger...I still can't do it from here. But I also can't get in the ceha home page anyway. I will try it at home. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 10:25 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Poets from Madeira present in Cancioneiro Strange, I just tested it and I can open it from here. Let's try again: http://www.ceha-madeira.net/elucidario/c/can9.htm On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Miguel > I am not able to open this link. > José >

Miguel/Cecce Re: burgos/viana etc. Children of Maria de Cairos marry into all of these families, i.e. Viana de Cairos etc. At least in my family! José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 9:01 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:06 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > Jose said: It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His > grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the > Ferreiras, but it seems odd. > > Miguel said:I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo > Dias (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > Cece says: Looks like both Diogo and Manuel children decided that their > mothers names were "better", because neither became Dias Saldanhas. Diogo > Dias son is Antonio Ferreira and Manuel Dias son is Matias Andrade -so both > took Moms name instead. > > The point is that both Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias are the sons of Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. So they were really sons of their mothers and fathers, and legitimate Saldanhas. The Dias comes from the g. parent of both Diogo and Manuel - Diogo Dias Saldanha, Ouvidor em Machico m. to D. Mara Catanho, dau, of António Vieira, meirinho, and D. Margarida Catanho. 1.Diogo Saldanha. (Had lands in Santo da Serra,in 149..). 1.2. Digo Saldanha. (Build the church in that "freguesia", around 1520) ..... 1.3. Gui or Diogo Ennes Saldanha m. 1558 Isabel Fernandes (Quite possibly direct descendant of the former), they had: 1.4. Diogo Dias Saldanha m. D. Maria Catanho, had from Concórdia Fernandes (black?): 1.5. Pedro Dias Saldanha m. Ana Henriques,had 1.6. Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias (Saldanha) Matias takes the name from her mother, indeed. The Andrades in that time was a "better" name to use. The Andrades were still on their rise, and the Saldanhas beggining their descent. I wonder why they did not use the Noronha? But once again in that time the Andrade name supplanted the Noronha. Manuel Abranches de Soveral, the well known medieval genealogist once told me that the Henriques name was then prime choice. (Remember that the Noronhas were Henriques de Noronha). Only later the Noronha name - because of the rise of Noronhas to the first rank of nobility . came to be foremost. I know that this may sound a bit far-fetched in your hiper-democratic countries. But the name sensitivity in Portugal was enormous. Still exists, but of course with the spread of education, nowadays the academic titles count more socially than the historical names. Even só, they still carry some weight, but nothing compared with former centuries. Anyway,in the 17 th century (and not only) for the sake of time economy sometimes the priests dropped the last name. In social use it was more simple to be known by name and surname. Or even by name and locality cf, Tristão da Ilha. João da Ponta. Manuel da Fonte., etc. > Jose said: On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e > Sousa, > Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > Cece says-Tome de Burgos is my ancestor and Manuel de Viana (de Caires) is > his son in law-married to his daughter Antonia. > I don't see any familial relationship to Diogo Dias yet, though it may be > there - do you? > I don't see any either. Maybe they did not have any. We already discussed the Burgos, I think. They had a link with the Calaças, And they were most probably from Spain. regards, Miguel > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:24 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > Miguel > > You keep up like this and I am going to have to get part of the family > will! > > I have heard of the Duke but I don't know or remember where Praça de > Saldanha in Lisbon is. However, may I accept your invitation, and God > willing or "Oxalá que tenhamos boa saúde e tempo" and we shall meet for a > celebration. > > On the Duke you are going to have to work that line for me. > It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His grandson > António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the Ferreiras, > but it seems odd. > On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, Manuel de > Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > José, waiting for that manzanillo > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:43 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > Ok. José- > > So we have one more couple of ancestors in common! > > > The name is Pedro. > I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo Dias > (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > Shall we meet for a coffee and a cup of manzanillo in Praça de Saldanha to > celebrate? > > The Duke is still our cousin, after all ; -) > > Bitório was written according to the Northern (North of Portugal) accent. > They still say baca for vaca, bino for vinho. And Bitório for Vitório or > Vitorino. > > So he is Vitório or Vitorino Pires. Though the old and "wrong" (wrong for > southerners) Bitório is endearing. > > Miguel > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > And... > > > > On Dias Saldanha ( can't decipher his first name) who married Ana > > Henriques, but I can't find that certificate, his son is Diogo Dias > > who marries Maria Ferreira in Caniço, 1651, 902, 225V. > > > > On Filipa Do Quintal, this is how it is spelled in their daughters' > > marriage certificate (Ana Pires) how do you spell her husband's name? > > Bitorio or is it an old writing for Victorino? > > > > José > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this > incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: 12/03/09 > 07:32:00 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Miguel I am not able to open this link. José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 4:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Poets from Madeira present in Cancioneiro http://www.ceha-madeira.net/elucidario/c/can9.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My grandfather died in Funchal (Santa Maria Maior or Sao Goncalo) in 1976. I just recently found a document listing the grave number. From what you guys have said, then, his remains are no longer there? Since I only know a grave number, not even a cemetery, don't know if I could even find it, though I would love to somehow. Any ideas on how I could do that? On Nov 24, 2009, at 6:57 PM, Paulo Santos Perneta wrote: Well, now it is indeed that way, but it hasn't been always like that. My parents paid a perpetual tomb for my grand-father (though that system was abolished after the 25 April, and the remains were removed from the tomb without any compensation). Those who went to the ground also stayed in the ground, as could be seen by everyone some years ago, when large quantities of earth were removed from the Santo Antonio cemetery and dumped in a lot, to the joy of the kids of that neighborhood who turned it into a sort of "search for the treasure" theme park, with bone fights and all, until the place was closed down. In more ancient times, until the 19th century, people was buried in the churches and *stayed there forever*. They were never removed, and their remains still are there, under our feet, in the older churches. You can be pretty sure that they never were removed from the church, as it was considered a great sacrilege to bury human remains outside sacred ground, and believe me, people respected and defended that with their hearths. When the first cemeteries were built and the government issued the order to stop burying people in churches, it was a major uproar, and there were mutinies. So, until very recently, the usual way was to stay forever in the place were one was buried. At best the bones would be set aside to give way to a new corpse (they still do that, but you have to bribe the digger, so that he would bury the bones under the tomb, but then, only you would know that they are there). Paulo [email protected] wrote in Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:14:00 -0800: > Wow, it sure has become active here! > > A while back we had a discussion about burials in Madeira as well > as other > places. Apparently when a person died they were buried for > anywhere from 2 > years to 5 years and then dug up. The obvious reason for this is > that you > can only bury so many people on an island that is only 13 miles > wide and 35 > miles long. > > Where would their bones or anything else for that matter go after > that? > What determined the length of time in a grave, status? > > Thanks, > > Tom Freitas > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Miguel, Cousin Miguel of the Saldanhas and Cairos! I may have blamed Paulo for the posting on the possible origins of the Sousa from Ribeira Grande. S. Miguel, but in fact it was you that "threw" this Romanesque part into the debate. You posted a couple of message in January, 2009 that addressed this issue. Ireza, dama da corte, Baltazar Vaz de Sousa, etc. I think you advanced that possibility and their links to the Burgos and Regos etc. I only have a hard copy of the posting. I believe Gonçalo may have been guanche. I have no parents for him and no other evidence, other than circumstances. José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 9:08 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos Yes, I remember vaguely that discussion- But not the romanesque part. Can you find it? Seems succulent. , During the 15 th and 16 th the Chaves (according to Pereira de Agrela, and other genealogists) were considered top nobiliy from Câmara de Lobos. I can't see a Chaves being Mestre de Açúcar. Still...perhaps a natural son of a natural son? But wasn't he a "guanche"? On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Oops I missed that comment from Miguel. > Miguel will recall Paulo's posting on the Sousa's from Ribeira Grande, > Azores and their discussion on the origin of the Sousas. > Part of that discussion was the possibility of Jerónimo de Sousa, our > ancestor, coming from the Sousas's of Ribeira Grande and eventually from > Iresa who had married a Potuguese noble who killed a man and went in exile > to Azores. Iresa was Irish who had come with Queen Leonor de Lancaster. > At least this is what I remember. I have it in my records but I haven't got > time for the moment. > > Gonçalo Jorge was a 'mestre d'açucar. In the certificate should have that. > I don't know if he was married twice. De Chaves name here at this time, may > be suggest that he may have been first generation in Madeira. But he was > mestre d'açucar and Portuguese didn't much about sugar. I always thought he > might be from the canaries. I don't have his parents. Do you have parents > from the Policena marriage? > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Cece Camara > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:15 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > Jose said:It is our Irish link! > > Miguel said:Irish? How come? refresh me, please, because it's my favourite > country,apart from Portugal ; - )) > > Cece says-My question exactly!! And especially since that is the next > biggest part of my ancestry. Why is it an Irish link?? > > > Jose said: On Madelena Jorge. It says she was from the Fragas, the one > married in 1622 > to Pedro Gonçalves. Her parents were Jorge Dias and Catarina de Castro > Caniço, 1585). Jorge's parents are Gonçalo Jorge and Agueda Dias. > > Cece says-Do you know if this Goncalo Jorge was married twice? I have a > Goncalo Jorge (same time frame) married to Dona Policena Teixeira. I > checked > geneall and they have a Goncalo Jorge de Chaves married to Leonor Teixeira > that look to be the same couple maybe..as both my Policena (from Teixeiras > de Tristao Vaz) and their Leonor are daughters of João Teixeira Escórcio > (although even there is a conflict as different mothers are listed). >

Miguel, I just wrote to Cecce and commented on that. We don't have the marriage certificates for there are none before 1530 in Caniço. Who were Juliana's Juliana's parents? Note that the spelling, according to Cecce is de Cayres as in the Funchal famous jeweller. José ________________________________ From: Miguel de Castro Henriques [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 9:14 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Cc: Fernandes, Jose Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos I do have Francisca's baptismal record and the heading say she is the daughter of Francisco Braz ede Jul... In the record itself it also says Francisco Bras and Jul... At that point of Jul...there is a different handwriting that continues with iano de Cayres. It is Juliana de Cairos, undoubtedly. They're part of the trunk of the Cairos Vaz. Maria de Cairos, dau. of Francisco Brás and Juliana de Cairos (from the Cairos), married Gabriel Vaz, lavrador, from Camacha. >From here came also the Cairos d'Orta from José. -----Original Message----- From: Fernandes, Jose [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 7:39 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos Cecce, No I didn't know. However, it seems to be Francisco nunes and Juliana de Cairos. The only Francisco Brás married in Caniço in 1572 marries a Margarida Lopes. I don't have either Gabriel's or Francisco's certificates. José -----Original Message----- From: Cece Camara [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:19 PM To: Fernandes, Jose Subject: RE: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos >>Here, on Francisco it would be interesting to find where Gabriel Vaz >>or Maria de Cairos come from. Jose, I presume you have Maria de Cairos parents already -Francisco BRAS & Juliana de CAIROS -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:58 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos Miguel, Here, on Francisco it would be interesting to find where Gabriel Vaz or Maria de Cairos come from. They marry in Camacha. In his marriage and he doesn't use D'Orta and then suddenly at his son's he his a D'Orta. Is it possible it is just that he had a "horta"? We have had already had a conversation on the Sousas. Jerónimo is my 11th, from Azores and so on. It is our Irish link! I do have a Vitória Miranda married to Marcos Francisco de Braga in 1567. This is through my Fernandes Veloza main branch. As you know I too, Cecce and others link to Mundos de Nóbrega. Terras de Nóbrega is a beautiful place, at least on the internet site. I shall visit itr one of these days. FDo you have any money to restore the castle? I like the Mundos name. In fact, there are Nóbregas all over the world now! The Vianas must come from Viana do Castelo. Been there. Liked the place. On Madelena Jorge. It says she was from the Fragas, the one married in 1622 to Pedro Gonçalves. Her parents were Jorge Dias and Catarina de Castro (Caniço, 1585). Jorge's parents are Gonçalo Jorge and Agueda Dias. Can't find that certificate. Any help is most welcome! By the way, Gonçalo is a "mestre d'açucar. Catarina's parents are Pedro Afonso, he was a "lavrador" and seemed to have married twice, and Maria Alves. I only know Maria's mother a widow- Gregória Martins. Any links here to Porto Santo. Perhaps through Martins? José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos José, He is the same Francisco. Sometimes name were shortened Anyway the d'Orta name puzzles me. There are the Hurtere, Flemish, from Açores (which gave the name to cidade da Horta), and the Horta, from Spain. Could he be from Açores ? From the Hurtere branch? Never heard someone raising this question before. May be I am 100% wrong. The Sás or Sousas e Sás from Caniço are, in part Sousas (by way of Jerónimo de Sousa, the trunk of that line) from Açores. I can't remember now their Sá name origin. It was a mighty name then, not common, though there were some Sás commoners and a few Sás nobles. Anyway a noble having Sá as a name would use it proudly. Like the Bettencourts de Sá did. Curuosly the Sás originate in Porto (Portugal) from bourgeois origins, around the mid 14 th century. So it's not that old. (A really old name in Portugal is a name existing before 1143, before King Afonso Henriques declared independence from Castille) when Portugal was still Comitat Portucalensis. I also have lots of Corrêas de Miranda (from Caniço) , coming from the first Corrêa de Miranda settler. Do you have them too? Actually my g.grand mother was Eulália de Jesus Corrêa de Miranda, her godfather was Morgado Jacinto de Freitas Lomelino, still a relative. She married a Nóbrega from the line of Mundos da Nóbrega. (They say Mundos name was Edmundo. It's quite probable. But I like the way it stayed for posterity : Mundos. The translation in English, of course, is "Worlds". Quite meaningful. At least I give it a lot of meaning, though Mundos was illiterate. I have his signature, a typical cross. ) The point about the origin of the Nóbrega surname is: was Nóbrega a toponymic, or not? In short , did the first Madeira Nóbrega came from the "Terras de Nóbrega", or did they carry the name Nóbrega? In the later case they could be a branch of the Aboim. But I have not seen this problem satisfactorily solved. One day, if Nóbrega is an added patronymic then wi will have to dive in the Gonçalves of Terras de Anóbrega - another way of saying Nóbrega. And that's for sure cnossian! The Regos seems to be from Algarve. The trunk of the Vianas, according to primo Clode, was Afonso Viana, from Caniço. >From him was descended João de Viana, Fidalgo Escudeiro da Casa Real, >"whose descendants mixed with the Cairos from Caniço".(source: Clode. FMPS pg 333). The Vianas in that time were very rich, had a marble tomb, much envied, because they were perhaps the only ones in Madeira to afford such a luxury. (There is no marble in Madeira). Other noble families wanted to have a marble tomb " na feissão da de João de Vianna) (similar to the marble tom of the magnífico Viana). Don' forget ti tell me about your Dias Saldanha. Mine were Manuel Dias Saldanha m. Maria de Andrada ( from the Ferreira Noronhas). His parents were Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. (m. around 162...) Perdo Dias Saldanha was a natural son of Diogo Annes Saldanha (ouvidor de Machico) and Concórdia Fernandes. (I suppose Concórdia was a black woman, or mestiça. But I don't know why I suppose so. Perhaps Paulo can shed some light in here* She was Diogo's "amiga". (lovely expression for lover.) Ana Henriques, obviously, interests me. Now the Henriques name, being a patronymic, is a hard bone to crunch. Unfortunately there is no marriage certificate for Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. The interesting thing is to find Saldanhas in Madeira, at an early time. Almost after the first settlement. I am almost sure . due to their status, that they were from the Saldanhas that came to Portugal from Spain. And as I lived quite near Praça do Saldanha , in Lisbon ( Duke of Saldanha Square) during many years, this name interests me a lot. I also have friends with that name, direct descendants of the first Saldanhas who came to Portugal. About Madalena Jorge, i have scores of Jorges too. Some, were from Porto Santo, descendants of Pedro Jorge (From the terrible mess of the mid 16 th Calaças). Others from Gaula, and have nothing to do with the former. And still others like BeatrizJorge married to Manuel Afonso, (16 th century) that I can't track. Regards, Miguel ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: 12/03/09 07:32:00 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.92/2543 - Release Date: 12/03/09 19:36:00 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The marriage certificate of Beatriz de Gois (de Mendoza) and Luis de Castro Ferreira (parents of Mariana de Gois who married Atanasio Gaviao Mendes) lists Beatriz parents as: Manuel Travassos and Isabel de Gois, but clearly states Beatriz name with the 'de Mendoza'. I will see if I can order the documents for Manuel and Isabel and see what they hopefully will reveal. Both Luis Beal and I looked at the certificate and Manuel Travassos is what we deciphered, but if you could take a look at the certificate - you might be able to shed a different light or confirm. Is there an email I can forward a pdf to? Thanks, Janette On 4-Dec-09, at 7:02 AM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: > Janette , > > how come Isabe de Góis married to Manuel Travassos connects with > these Góis > de Mendonça? > > In the title TRAVASSOS, pg 317, we see that > > 1. Manuel Rodrigues Travassos, married around 1620 Maria de > Mendonça. They > had 6 sons: > 1.1. First born Manuel Travassos married 1649 Isabel de Góis, dau. of > Domingos Martins and Catarina Nunes. > > On other hand the Góis de Mendonça only appear after the marriage of > Atanásop Mendes gavião, in 1700, with Mariana de Góis, dau, of Luis de > Castro Ferreira and Beatriz de Góis. > > > Sp they are other people, your Isabel de Góis have probably nothing > to do > with the said Góis de Mendonça. > > > Clode also adds that these Travassos proliferated "abundantly" and > had good > connections (boas ligações: meaning they married with good families) > from > Porto Santo e Machico. > > > If these particular Góis de Mendonça from Porto Santo did not > belong to the > nobility is because they were perhaps descendants of slaves. The > slaves were > given the names and surnames of their owners. Otherwise anyone with > these > particular names had to be almost per force descendant of the > nobility. Of > course there are exceptions....And Clode has to stress, for some > reason, > that they did not belong to the nobility, because these names are > speaking > evidence that otherwise, without question, they belonged or were > descended > from the nobility. > > regards, > > Miguel > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 7:35 AM, Janette Chun <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Hi Miguel, >> >> According to Clode (and sorry I don't have the title of the book, >> just >> a photo copy of page 149 with the title Gois) his descendants were >> not >> of nobility. >> >> Here's what I have: >> >> Gois >> >> Os deste apelido procedem de Brites de Gois, filha de Joao do Rego e >> de Beatriz de Gois e mulher de Lancarote Teixeira, filho do segundo >> donatario de Machico. Deste casamento houve 13 filhos. >> O Dr. Alvaro de Azevedo nas sua notas as <Saudades da Terra>, tambem >> diz que este apelido originariamente deriva de D. Anciao da Estrada, >> Asturiano, que foi senhor de Gois. >> >> No Porto Santo ha uma famiia Gois de Mendonca cujo tronco era Manuel >> Rocha, casado com Maria Coelho; um filho deste, Atanasio Mendes >> Gaviao, casou em 1700 com Mariana de Gois, filha de Luiz de Castro >> Ferreira e de Brites de Gois e daqui aquele nome. Nao pertenceram a >> nobreza. >> >> This may explain why you couldn't find the link. I had reached the >> said couple Manuel Rocha and Maria Coelho. and could go no further >> and >> was puzzled that for several generations everyone leading up to the >> Atanasio had been de Gois de Mendonca (or some variant) and all of a >> sudden the names all changed. So Atanasio's son, Antoniol (and my >> direct ancestor) chose his mother and maternal grandmother's last >> name. His mother is listed in all the certificates as Mariana de >> Gois >> but his grandmother is Beatriz de Gois de Mendoza -which is the first >> time I've see this spelling in any of my certificates. Now I will >> wait and see where the documents for Beatriz's parents take me.... >> >> I also wonder where Clode got his information from. I have not been >> able to find a marriage certificate for Atanasio and Mariana, yet he >> states that they were married in 1700. >> >> Thank you again for all your help. >> >> Janette >> >> On 3-Dec-09, at 4:28 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: >> >>> Hello Janette, >>> >>> Ok. I just saw the Travassos, in Clode, FPMPS pg 317. Isabel de >>> Góis must >>> be Góis by his mother, Catarina Nunes. My guess. And as the >>> Teixeiras .from >>> Lançarote teixeira, carried the name Góis, she must be Góis and >>> Teixeira. >>> >>> (The Teixeiras are another Casta Grande. I bet 90 % of madeirans >>> nowadys >>> have Teixeira's blood)- >>> >>> It shows as I had predicted (no big deal, Madeira is small, and at >>> one point >>> you know intuitively who is who) a Mendonça, the mother of Manuel >>> Travassos, the wife of Manuel Rodrigues Travassos. >>> >>> On other hand ( where my predictions fail) I thought he would link >>> with the >>> Travassos Magalhães. But Clode does not confirm that. Still... >>> >>> Anyway it's a good find for you. Looking forward for more >>> developments. >>> Because it's a promising line. But...let's see, >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Miguel >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Janette Chun <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks Miguel. Yes I know of these all except Morgado Pereira de >>>> Agrela. I haven't really looked at any of the Clode works, but it >>>> was >>>> in fact through his work that I was able to get to this particular >>>> ancestor, thanks to a page from his book, which the archive sent me >>>> on >>>> the Gois family. >>>> >>>> I just recently took out a subscription to geneall but so far >>>> haven't >>>> discovered any new nuggets of information. Will keep looking. >>>> >>>> Janette >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 3-Dec-09, at 9:07 AM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: >>>> >>>>> Well, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You proibably know already all that are available, You have >>>>> Felsiberto, HHN, >>>>> Clode, and FMPS Clode and Meneses and Morgado Pereira de Agrela. >>>>> Geneall has >>>>> some info about Madeira genealogies. And the personal best >>>>> Madeiran >>>>> genealogies are to be found in some of our list colleagues >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'll try to find out the Travassos in Pereira de Agrela. Once I >>>>> looked for >>>>> them and it had valuable and original info about them. >>>>> >>>>> At one point some a Travassos (from 15th century) whose alcunha >>>>> was >>>>> " O >>>>> Pequenininho) was the Carcereiro, the man in charge of Porto >>>>> Santo >>>>> prison. >>>>> A friend, a nobleman was quite schocked to see him in such a >>>>> station. What >>>>> you, from the noble Travassos, in such a terrible job? >>>>> The Pequenininho had some flourished and philosophical. answer- I >>>>> don't >>>>> recall the terms. But it was somnething like: " Alas my good >>>>> friend, >>>>> such is >>>>> life that, though God forbid, one day you may be in the same >>>>> position as >>>>> myself." >>>>> >>>>> To be called Pequenininho- - is because he was very very small in >>>>> stature, >>>>> but not in dignity. >>>>> >>>>> Miguel >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Janette Chun <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Thanks Miguel. I have a some information on the Calacas and >>>>>> Ornellas. >>>>>> Any pointers on other resources for informaton on the Texeiras, >>>>>> Castros, etc. ? >>>>>> >>>>>> Janette >>>>>> On 3-Dec-09, at 7:49 AM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Bingo! I was sure he was from Porto Santo. He probably connects >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> first Travassos from Porto Santo. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And so with the Teixeiras, Calaças, Castros, Mendonças. >>>>>>> Vasconcelos >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> Ornelas. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> regards, >>>>>>> Miguel >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Janette Chun <[email protected] >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Miguel, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1600s - the marriage date is 1649 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Manuel Travassos Isabel de Góis Porto Santo 1649 >>>>>>>> 991 >>>>>>>> 26 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>> Janette >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3-Dec-09, at 4:47 AM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello Janette, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From which year is he? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The name is not very common. It is very ancient. It is a >>>>>>>>> toponymic. >>>>>>>>> And the >>>>>>>>> Travassos from the XVI th century were considered as nobility. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> regards, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Miguel >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 9:10 AM, Janette Chun <[email protected] >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> With the invaluable help of Luis Beal, I now have an ancestor >>>>>>>>>> named >>>>>>>>>> Manuel Travassos. I've never come across this last name >>>>>>>>>> before - >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> a quick internet search revealed that there are quite a few. >>>>>>>>>> Does >>>>>>>>>> anyone know the origins of this name? Is it common in >>>>>>>>>> Madeira? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Janette >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 2-Dec-09, at 9:40 PM, Janette Chun wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Luis! No not gothic yet....LOL >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I will email the pdf files to the address you provided. >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>>>>> again. >>>>>>>>>>> Janette >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 2-Dec-09, at 10:14 AM, Luis Beal wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> That was me. Just e-mail an attachment to [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>> 1600's I hope it isn't gothic cause that I can't read :) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Luis Beal >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain >>>>>>>>>>>> perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life >>>>>>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>>>>>> it is woven into the life of our ancestors." >>>>>>>>>>>> Cicero, Roman orator >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Janette Chun <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>> To: PRT-MADEIRA <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 9:27:18 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Help reading certificates >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hello all, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I've enjoyed the exchange of emails over the last few >>>>>>>>>>>> weeks. >>>>>>>>>>>> Great to >>>>>>>>>>>> see the forum active again. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I recall reading an offer to help read some certificates >>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>> can't >>>>>>>>>>>> remember who : ( - old age! I recently received two >>>>>>>>>>>> certificates >>>>>>>>>>>> from the 1600s which are a little difficult to decipher - I >>>>>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>>> I've >>>>>>>>>>>> sort of figured it out, but would welcome a second >>>>>>>>>>>> opinion as >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>> familiar with some of the abbreviations. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Janette Chun >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the >>>>>>>>>>>> subject >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> the body of the message >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the >>>>>>>>>>>> subject >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> the body of the message >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>>>>>>>> without the >>>>>>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> the body of the message >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>>>>>> without the >>>>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>>>> without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> [email protected] >>>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >>>>> the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] >>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >>> the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

Oops I missed that comment from Miguel. Miguel will recall Paulo's posting on the Sousa's from Ribeira Grande, Azores and their discussion on the origin of the Sousas. Part of that discussion was the possibility of Jerónimo de Sousa, our ancestor, coming from the Sousas's of Ribeira Grande and eventually from Iresa who had married a Potuguese noble who killed a man and went in exile to Azores. Iresa was Irish who had come with Queen Leonor de Lancaster. At least this is what I remember. I have it in my records but I haven't got time for the moment. Gonçalo Jorge was a 'mestre d'açucar. In the certificate should have that. I don't know if he was married twice. De Chaves name here at this time, may be suggest that he may have been first generation in Madeira. But he was mestre d'açucar and Portuguese didn't much about sugar. I always thought he might be from the canaries. I don't have his parents. Do you have parents from the Policena marriage? José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cece Camara Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:15 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos Jose said:It is our Irish link! Miguel said:Irish? How come? refresh me, please, because it's my favourite country,apart from Portugal ; - )) Cece says-My question exactly!! And especially since that is the next biggest part of my ancestry. Why is it an Irish link?? Jose said: On Madelena Jorge. It says she was from the Fragas, the one married in 1622 to Pedro Gonçalves. Her parents were Jorge Dias and Catarina de Castro Caniço, 1585). Jorge's parents are Gonçalo Jorge and Agueda Dias. Cece says-Do you know if this Goncalo Jorge was married twice? I have a Goncalo Jorge (same time frame) married to Dona Policena Teixeira. I checked geneall and they have a Goncalo Jorge de Chaves married to Leonor Teixeira that look to be the same couple maybe..as both my Policena (from Teixeiras de Tristao Vaz) and their Leonor are daughters of João Teixeira Escórcio (although even there is a conflict as different mothers are listed). -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 3:27 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 4:57 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > Here, on Francisco it would be interesting to find where Gabriel Vaz > or Maria de Cairos come from. They marry in Camacha. In his marriage > and he doesn't use D'Orta and then suddenly at his son's he his a > D'Orta. Is it possible it is just that he had a "horta"? > Well, theoretically yes. It could be possible that he was named D'Orta because he had an Horta. But an horta is a small and trivial thing, and he was a Lavrador. He had to be a wealthy Lavrador since he married a Viana, from nobility. I don't see that the Vianas, proud owners of the best marble tomb in Madeira, would give away a daughter to a guy that had an Horta. The Vianas had high status on earth and on heavens! > We have had already had a conversation on the Sousas. Jerónimo is my > 11th, from Azores and so on. It is our Irish link! > > Irish? How come? refresh me, please, because it's my favourite > country, apart from Portugal ; - )) > I do have a Vitória Miranda married to Marcos Francisco de Braga in 1567. > This is through my Fernandes Veloza main branch. > > Marcos must be of the real Bragas, because that´s a name (Marcos) they > used a lot. Some Marques, may come from one of the Marcos de Braga. So do you have a connection with Diogo Cão, the navigator (thorugh the Bragas) ? Vitória either is from the Correias Mirandas, or from the Lourenço de Miranda branch, I suppose. > As you know I too, Cecce and others link to Mundos de Nóbrega. Yes, I know. It is great to find so many cousins. > Terras de Nóbrega is a beautiful place, at least on the internet site. > I shall visit itr one of these days. FDo you have any money to restore > the castle? If the Nóbregas are from there, noblesse oblige, we have to help to restore that castle ; -)) > I like the Mundos name. In fact, there are Nóbregas all over the world now! > Yes. It was a prophetic name. > > The Vianas must come from Viana do Castelo. Been there. Liked the place. > > On Madelena Jorge. It says she was from the Fragas, the one married in 1622 > to Pedro Gonçalves. Her parents were Jorge Dias and Catarina de Castro > (Caniço, 1585). Jorge's parents are Gonçalo Jorge and Agueda Dias. That's on spot. Is what I have too. I still have to figure out from where this Fragas came to madeira, because it's nor a common name. > Can't find that certificate. Any help is most welcome! By the way, > Gonçalo is a "mestre d'açucar. Catarina's parents are Pedro Afonso, he > was a "lavrador" and seemed to have married twice, and Maria Alves. I > only know Maria's mother a widow- Gregória Martins. > Yes- Gonçalo is the responsible for my blood liking to run with rum. A very guilty man. Has spoiled generations ; -)) > Any links here to Porto Santo. Perhaps through Martins? > I don't know, though... Martins does'nt sound to me as a typical Portosantense name. But... regards, Miguel > > >

im a cousin from Canico as well Jose! Leandro In a message dated 12/4/2009 2:52:39 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Cecce, You saw Miguel's comments on the Vianas. The witnesses, in my opinion, represented the top families in Caniço at the time. Some missing names like Rego were by now intermarried with these guys, particularly the Vianas. It seems the Ornellas were missing here. May be they were out of town. Now all of these people are also my ancestors. Caniço was isolated. It is close to Funchal, and it is true wanted to avoid Santa Cruz. I always found it very insular. Towards itself. People lived and stayed there forever. It had a strong family connection and it seemed more of a balanced social life than other parishes. Now this could all be childhood fantasies. Nevertheless given the small number of inhabitants, it led to very "close" families. That is why you and I and Miguel and Paulo and ....all are cousins! Cheers José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cece Camara Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:07 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos Jose said: It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the Ferreiras, but it seems odd. Miguel said:I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo Dias (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. Cece says: Looks like both Diogo and Manuels children decided that their mothers names were "better", because neither became Dias Saldanhas. Diogo Dias son is Antonio Ferreira and Manuel Dias son is Matias Andrade -so both took Moms name instead. Jose said: On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! Cece says-Tome de Burgos is my ancestor and Manuel de Viana (de Caires) is his son in law-married to his daughter Antonia. I don't see any familial relationship to Diogo Dias yet, though it may be there - do you? -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:24 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos Miguel You keep up like this and I am going to have to get part of the family will! I have heard of the Duke but I don't know or remember where Praça de Saldanha in Lisbon is. However, may I accept your invitation, and God willing or "Oxalá que tenhamos boa saúde e tempo" and we shall meet for a celebration. On the Duke you are going to have to work that line for me. It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the Ferreiras, but it seems odd. On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! José, waiting for that manzanillo ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Cecce, You saw Miguel's comments on the Vianas. The witnesses, in my opinion, represented the top families in Caniço at the time. Some missing names like Rego were by now intermarried with these guys, particularly the Vianas. It seems the Ornellas were missing here. May be they were out of town. Now all of these people are also my ancestors. Caniço was isolated. It is close to Funchal, and it is true wanted to avoid Santa Cruz. I always found it very insular. Towards itself. People lived and stayed there forever. It had a strong family connection and it seemed more of a balanced social life than other parishes. Now this could all be childhood fantasies. Nevertheless given the small number of inhabitants, it led to very "close" families. That is why you and I and Miguel and Paulo and ....all are cousins! Cheers José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cece Camara Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:07 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos Jose said: It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the Ferreiras, but it seems odd. Miguel said:I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo Dias (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. Cece says: Looks like both Diogo and Manuels children decided that their mothers names were "better", because neither became Dias Saldanhas. Diogo Dias son is Antonio Ferreira and Manuel Dias son is Matias Andrade -so both took Moms name instead. Jose said: On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! Cece says-Tome de Burgos is my ancestor and Manuel de Viana (de Caires) is his son in law-married to his daughter Antonia. I don't see any familial relationship to Diogo Dias yet, though it may be there - do you? -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:24 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos Miguel You keep up like this and I am going to have to get part of the family will! I have heard of the Duke but I don't know or remember where Praça de Saldanha in Lisbon is. However, may I accept your invitation, and God willing or "Oxalá que tenhamos boa saúde e tempo" and we shall meet for a celebration. On the Duke you are going to have to work that line for me. It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the Ferreiras, but it seems odd. On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! José, waiting for that manzanillo

Another typo...so sue me...LOL...of course it ends in an a! ;-) And yes Francisca de Cairos marries Mendo Anes and her sister Maria de Cairos marries Gabriel Vaz...and I am descended from both of them. -----Original Message----- From: Fernandes, Jose [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 8:14 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos Cecce, It must be that because Nunes marries a Juliana only in 1586. So they couldn't be parents to Maria who marries in 1559. Parents could have married before 1530 and there are no certificates in Caniço from that time. Remind me, who is Francisca? Sister to Maria? It can't be ...iano, for that would be a man. José -----Original Message----- From: Cece Camara [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 9:08 AM To: Fernandes, Jose Cc: [email protected] Subject: RE: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos I do have Francisca's baptismal record and the heading say she is the daughter of Francisco Braz ede Jul... In the record itself it also says Francisco Bras and Jul... At that point of Jul...there is a different handwriting that continues with iano de Cayres. -----Original Message----- From: Fernandes, Jose [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 7:39 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos Cecce, No I didn't know. However, it seems to be Francisco nunes and Juliana de Cairos. The only Francisco Brás married in Caniço in 1572 marries a Margarida Lopes. I don't have either Gabriel's or Francisco's certificates. José -----Original Message----- From: Cece Camara [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:19 PM To: Fernandes, Jose Subject: RE: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos >>Here, on Francisco it would be interesting to find where Gabriel Vaz >>or Maria de Cairos come from. Jose, I presume you have Maria de Cairos parents already -Francisco BRAS & Juliana de CAIROS -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:58 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos Miguel, Here, on Francisco it would be interesting to find where Gabriel Vaz or Maria de Cairos come from. They marry in Camacha. In his marriage and he doesn't use D'Orta and then suddenly at his son's he his a D'Orta. Is it possible it is just that he had a "horta"? We have had already had a conversation on the Sousas. Jerónimo is my 11th, from Azores and so on. It is our Irish link! I do have a Vitória Miranda married to Marcos Francisco de Braga in 1567. This is through my Fernandes Veloza main branch. As you know I too, Cecce and others link to Mundos de Nóbrega. Terras de Nóbrega is a beautiful place, at least on the internet site. I shall visit itr one of these days. FDo you have any money to restore the castle? I like the Mundos name. In fact, there are Nóbregas all over the world now! The Vianas must come from Viana do Castelo. Been there. Liked the place. On Madelena Jorge. It says she was from the Fragas, the one married in 1622 to Pedro Gonçalves. Her parents were Jorge Dias and Catarina de Castro (Caniço, 1585). Jorge's parents are Gonçalo Jorge and Agueda Dias. Can't find that certificate. Any help is most welcome! By the way, Gonçalo is a "mestre d'açucar. Catarina's parents are Pedro Afonso, he was a "lavrador" and seemed to have married twice, and Maria Alves. I only know Maria's mother a widow- Gregória Martins. Any links here to Porto Santo. Perhaps through Martins? José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos José, He is the same Francisco. Sometimes name were shortened Anyway the d'Orta name puzzles me. There are the Hurtere, Flemish, from Açores (which gave the name to cidade da Horta), and the Horta, from Spain. Could he be from Açores ? From the Hurtere branch? Never heard someone raising this question before. May be I am 100% wrong. The Sás or Sousas e Sás from Caniço are, in part Sousas (by way of Jerónimo de Sousa, the trunk of that line) from Açores. I can't remember now their Sá name origin. It was a mighty name then, not common, though there were some Sás commoners and a few Sás nobles. Anyway a noble having Sá as a name would use it proudly. Like the Bettencourts de Sá did. Curuosly the Sás originate in Porto (Portugal) from bourgeois origins, around the mid 14 th century. So it's not that old. (A really old name in Portugal is a name existing before 1143, before King Afonso Henriques declared independence from Castille) when Portugal was still Comitat Portucalensis. I also have lots of Corrêas de Miranda (from Caniço) , coming from the first Corrêa de Miranda settler. Do you have them too? Actually my g.grand mother was Eulália de Jesus Corrêa de Miranda, her godfather was Morgado Jacinto de Freitas Lomelino, still a relative. She married a Nóbrega from the line of Mundos da Nóbrega. (They say Mundos name was Edmundo. It's quite probable. But I like the way it stayed for posterity : Mundos. The translation in English, of course, is "Worlds". Quite meaningful. At least I give it a lot of meaning, though Mundos was illiterate. I have his signature, a typical cross. ) The point about the origin of the Nóbrega surname is: was Nóbrega a toponymic, or not? In short , did the first Madeira Nóbrega came from the "Terras de Nóbrega", or did they carry the name Nóbrega? In the later case they could be a branch of the Aboim. But I have not seen this problem satisfactorily solved. One day, if Nóbrega is an added patronymic then wi will have to dive in the Gonçalves of Terras de Anóbrega - another way of saying Nóbrega. And that's for sure cnossian! The Regos seems to be from Algarve. The trunk of the Vianas, according to primo Clode, was Afonso Viana, from Caniço. >From him was descended João de Viana, Fidalgo Escudeiro da Casa Real, >"whose descendants mixed with the Cairos from Caniço".(source: Clode. FMPS pg 333). The Vianas in that time were very rich, had a marble tomb, much envied, because they were perhaps the only ones in Madeira to afford such a luxury. (There is no marble in Madeira). Other noble families wanted to have a marble tomb " na feissão da de João de Vianna) (similar to the marble tom of the magnífico Viana). Don' forget ti tell me about your Dias Saldanha. Mine were Manuel Dias Saldanha m. Maria de Andrada ( from the Ferreira Noronhas). His parents were Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. (m. around 162...) Perdo Dias Saldanha was a natural son of Diogo Annes Saldanha (ouvidor de Machico) and Concórdia Fernandes. (I suppose Concórdia was a black woman, or mestiça. But I don't know why I suppose so. Perhaps Paulo can shed some light in here* She was Diogo's "amiga". (lovely expression for lover.) Ana Henriques, obviously, interests me. Now the Henriques name, being a patronymic, is a hard bone to crunch. Unfortunately there is no marriage certificate for Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. The interesting thing is to find Saldanhas in Madeira, at an early time. Almost after the first settlement. I am almost sure . due to their status, that they were from the Saldanhas that came to Portugal from Spain. And as I lived quite near Praça do Saldanha , in Lisbon ( Duke of Saldanha Square) during many years, this name interests me a lot. I also have friends with that name, direct descendants of the first Saldanhas who came to Portugal. About Madalena Jorge, i have scores of Jorges too. Some, were from Porto Santo, descendants of Pedro Jorge (From the terrible mess of the mid 16 th Calaças). Others from Gaula, and have nothing to do with the former. And still others like BeatrizJorge married to Manuel Afonso, (16 th century) that I can't track. Regards, Miguel ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: 12/03/09 07:32:00 No virus found in this incoming message. 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I do have Francisca's baptismal record and the heading say she is the daughter of Francisco Braz ede Jul... In the record itself it also says Francisco Bras and Jul... At that point of Jul...there is a different handwriting that continues with iano de Cayres. -----Original Message----- From: Fernandes, Jose [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 7:39 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos Cecce, No I didn't know. However, it seems to be Francisco nunes and Juliana de Cairos. The only Francisco Brás married in Caniço in 1572 marries a Margarida Lopes. I don't have either Gabriel's or Francisco's certificates. José -----Original Message----- From: Cece Camara [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:19 PM To: Fernandes, Jose Subject: RE: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos >>Here, on Francisco it would be interesting to find where Gabriel Vaz >>or Maria de Cairos come from. Jose, I presume you have Maria de Cairos parents already -Francisco BRAS & Juliana de CAIROS -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:58 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos Miguel, Here, on Francisco it would be interesting to find where Gabriel Vaz or Maria de Cairos come from. They marry in Camacha. In his marriage and he doesn't use D'Orta and then suddenly at his son's he his a D'Orta. Is it possible it is just that he had a "horta"? We have had already had a conversation on the Sousas. Jerónimo is my 11th, from Azores and so on. It is our Irish link! I do have a Vitória Miranda married to Marcos Francisco de Braga in 1567. This is through my Fernandes Veloza main branch. As you know I too, Cecce and others link to Mundos de Nóbrega. Terras de Nóbrega is a beautiful place, at least on the internet site. I shall visit itr one of these days. FDo you have any money to restore the castle? I like the Mundos name. In fact, there are Nóbregas all over the world now! The Vianas must come from Viana do Castelo. Been there. Liked the place. On Madelena Jorge. It says she was from the Fragas, the one married in 1622 to Pedro Gonçalves. Her parents were Jorge Dias and Catarina de Castro (Caniço, 1585). Jorge's parents are Gonçalo Jorge and Agueda Dias. Can't find that certificate. Any help is most welcome! By the way, Gonçalo is a "mestre d'açucar. Catarina's parents are Pedro Afonso, he was a "lavrador" and seemed to have married twice, and Maria Alves. I only know Maria's mother a widow- Gregória Martins. Any links here to Porto Santo. Perhaps through Martins? José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos José, He is the same Francisco. Sometimes name were shortened Anyway the d'Orta name puzzles me. There are the Hurtere, Flemish, from Açores (which gave the name to cidade da Horta), and the Horta, from Spain. Could he be from Açores ? From the Hurtere branch? Never heard someone raising this question before. May be I am 100% wrong. The Sás or Sousas e Sás from Caniço are, in part Sousas (by way of Jerónimo de Sousa, the trunk of that line) from Açores. I can't remember now their Sá name origin. It was a mighty name then, not common, though there were some Sás commoners and a few Sás nobles. Anyway a noble having Sá as a name would use it proudly. Like the Bettencourts de Sá did. Curuosly the Sás originate in Porto (Portugal) from bourgeois origins, around the mid 14 th century. So it's not that old. (A really old name in Portugal is a name existing before 1143, before King Afonso Henriques declared independence from Castille) when Portugal was still Comitat Portucalensis. I also have lots of Corrêas de Miranda (from Caniço) , coming from the first Corrêa de Miranda settler. Do you have them too? Actually my g.grand mother was Eulália de Jesus Corrêa de Miranda, her godfather was Morgado Jacinto de Freitas Lomelino, still a relative. She married a Nóbrega from the line of Mundos da Nóbrega. (They say Mundos name was Edmundo. It's quite probable. But I like the way it stayed for posterity : Mundos. The translation in English, of course, is "Worlds". Quite meaningful. At least I give it a lot of meaning, though Mundos was illiterate. I have his signature, a typical cross. ) The point about the origin of the Nóbrega surname is: was Nóbrega a toponymic, or not? In short , did the first Madeira Nóbrega came from the "Terras de Nóbrega", or did they carry the name Nóbrega? In the later case they could be a branch of the Aboim. But I have not seen this problem satisfactorily solved. One day, if Nóbrega is an added patronymic then wi will have to dive in the Gonçalves of Terras de Anóbrega - another way of saying Nóbrega. And that's for sure cnossian! The Regos seems to be from Algarve. The trunk of the Vianas, according to primo Clode, was Afonso Viana, from Caniço. >From him was descended João de Viana, Fidalgo Escudeiro da Casa Real, >"whose descendants mixed with the Cairos from Caniço".(source: Clode. FMPS pg 333). The Vianas in that time were very rich, had a marble tomb, much envied, because they were perhaps the only ones in Madeira to afford such a luxury. (There is no marble in Madeira). Other noble families wanted to have a marble tomb " na feissão da de João de Vianna) (similar to the marble tom of the magnífico Viana). Don' forget ti tell me about your Dias Saldanha. Mine were Manuel Dias Saldanha m. Maria de Andrada ( from the Ferreira Noronhas). His parents were Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. (m. around 162...) Perdo Dias Saldanha was a natural son of Diogo Annes Saldanha (ouvidor de Machico) and Concórdia Fernandes. (I suppose Concórdia was a black woman, or mestiça. But I don't know why I suppose so. Perhaps Paulo can shed some light in here* She was Diogo's "amiga". (lovely expression for lover.) Ana Henriques, obviously, interests me. Now the Henriques name, being a patronymic, is a hard bone to crunch. Unfortunately there is no marriage certificate for Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. The interesting thing is to find Saldanhas in Madeira, at an early time. Almost after the first settlement. I am almost sure . due to their status, that they were from the Saldanhas that came to Portugal from Spain. And as I lived quite near Praça do Saldanha , in Lisbon ( Duke of Saldanha Square) during many years, this name interests me a lot. I also have friends with that name, direct descendants of the first Saldanhas who came to Portugal. About Madalena Jorge, i have scores of Jorges too. Some, were from Porto Santo, descendants of Pedro Jorge (From the terrible mess of the mid 16 th Calaças). Others from Gaula, and have nothing to do with the former. And still others like BeatrizJorge married to Manuel Afonso, (16 th century) that I can't track. Regards, Miguel ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: 12/03/09 07:32:00 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.92/2543 - Release Date: 12/03/09 19:36:00

Hello Janette, Ok. I just saw the Travassos, in Clode, FPMPS pg 317. Isabel de Góis must be Góis by his mother, Catarina Nunes. My guess. And as the Teixeiras .from Lançarote teixeira, carried the name Góis, she must be Góis and Teixeira. (The Teixeiras are another Casta Grande. I bet 90 % of madeirans nowadys have Teixeira's blood)- It shows as I had predicted (no big deal, Madeira is small, and at one point you know intuitively who is who) a Mendonça, the mother of Manuel Travassos, the wife of Manuel Rodrigues Travassos. On other hand ( where my predictions fail) I thought he would link with the Travassos Magalhães. But Clode does not confirm that. Still... Anyway it's a good find for you. Looking forward for more developments. Because it's a promising line. But...let's see, Best regards, Miguel On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Janette Chun <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks Miguel. Yes I know of these all except Morgado Pereira de > Agrela. I haven't really looked at any of the Clode works, but it was > in fact through his work that I was able to get to this particular > ancestor, thanks to a page from his book, which the archive sent me on > the Gois family. > > I just recently took out a subscription to geneall but so far haven't > discovered any new nuggets of information. Will keep looking. > > Janette > > > > On 3-Dec-09, at 9:07 AM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: > > > Well, > > > > > > You proibably know already all that are available, You have > > Felsiberto, HHN, > > Clode, and FMPS Clode and Meneses and Morgado Pereira de Agrela. > > Geneall has > > some info about Madeira genealogies. And the personal best Madeiran > > genealogies are to be found in some of our list colleagues > > > > > > I'll try to find out the Travassos in Pereira de Agrela. Once I > > looked for > > them and it had valuable and original info about them. > > > > At one point some a Travassos (from 15th century) whose alcunha was > > " O > > Pequenininho) was the Carcereiro, the man in charge of Porto Santo > > prison. > > A friend, a nobleman was quite schocked to see him in such a > > station. What > > you, from the noble Travassos, in such a terrible job? > > The Pequenininho had some flourished and philosophical. answer- I > > don't > > recall the terms. But it was somnething like: " Alas my good friend, > > such is > > life that, though God forbid, one day you may be in the same > > position as > > myself." > > > > To be called Pequenininho- - is because he was very very small in > > stature, > > but not in dignity. > > > > Miguel > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Janette Chun <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > >> Thanks Miguel. I have a some information on the Calacas and Ornellas. > >> Any pointers on other resources for informaton on the Texeiras, > >> Castros, etc. ? > >> > >> Janette > >> On 3-Dec-09, at 7:49 AM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: > >> > >>> Bingo! I was sure he was from Porto Santo. He probably connects with > >>> the > >>> first Travassos from Porto Santo. > >>> > >>> And so with the Teixeiras, Calaças, Castros, Mendonças. Vasconcelos > >>> and > >>> Ornelas. > >>> > >>> > >>> regards, > >>> Miguel > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Janette Chun <[email protected]> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi Miguel, > >>>> > >>>> 1600s - the marriage date is 1649 > >>>> > >>>> Manuel Travassos Isabel de Góis Porto Santo 1649 > >>>> 991 > >>>> 26 > >>>> > >>>> Thanks. > >>>> Janette > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 3-Dec-09, at 4:47 AM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hello Janette, > >>>>> > >>>>>> From which year is he? > >>>>> > >>>>> The name is not very common. It is very ancient. It is a > >>>>> toponymic. > >>>>> And the > >>>>> Travassos from the XVI th century were considered as nobility. > >>>>> > >>>>> regards, > >>>>> > >>>>> Miguel > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 9:10 AM, Janette Chun <[email protected]> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> With the invaluable help of Luis Beal, I now have an ancestor > >>>>>> named > >>>>>> Manuel Travassos. I've never come across this last name > >>>>>> before - > >>>>>> and > >>>>>> a quick internet search revealed that there are quite a few. Does > >>>>>> anyone know the origins of this name? Is it common in Madeira? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Janette > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 2-Dec-09, at 9:40 PM, Janette Chun wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks Luis! No not gothic yet....LOL > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I will email the pdf files to the address you provided. Thanks > >>>>>>> again. > >>>>>>> Janette > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 2-Dec-09, at 10:14 AM, Luis Beal wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> That was me. Just e-mail an attachment to [email protected] > >>>>>>>> 1600's I hope it isn't gothic cause that I can't read :) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Luis Beal > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain > >>>>>>>> perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life > >>>>>>>> unless > >>>>>>>> it is woven into the life of our ancestors." > >>>>>>>> Cicero, Roman orator > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>>>> From: Janette Chun <[email protected]> > >>>>>>>> To: PRT-MADEIRA <[email protected]> > >>>>>>>> Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 9:27:18 AM > >>>>>>>> Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Help reading certificates > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hello all, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I've enjoyed the exchange of emails over the last few weeks. > >>>>>>>> Great to > >>>>>>>> see the forum active again. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I recall reading an offer to help read some certificates but > >>>>>>>> can't > >>>>>>>> remember who : ( - old age! I recently received two > >>>>>>>> certificates > >>>>>>>> from the 1600s which are a little difficult to decipher - I > >>>>>>>> think > >>>>>>>> I've > >>>>>>>> sort of figured it out, but would welcome a second opinion as > >>>>>>>> I'm > >>>>>>>> not > >>>>>>>> familiar with some of the abbreviations. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks! > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Janette Chun > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject > >>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>> the body of the message > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject > >>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>> the body of the message > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >>>>>> without the > >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> [email protected] > >>>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > >>>>> the body of the message > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >>>> without the > >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] > >>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > >>> the body of the message > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > > the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >