Miguel, Didn't the Braganças eventually marry into the Bourbons any way? At least the Brazilian line. No, the one who marries Sebastião is a widow I think of Francisco. The one who marries João must be a second one, in this case.We are not counting the one married to Pedro. Anyway, there are only about 6 Ana Henriques between 1580 and 1680, and I know of at least 3 of them and that is not counting the one married to Pedro Saldanha. Henriques is a common name, but these seem to be within Caniço or Santa Cruz. Let me know what you find out from the baptism certificates. José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 11:07 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) José, Yes, indeed. The Braganças. For instance of all the sons that D.João VI and Carlota Joaquina had, only one seems to have been really his son. This happened during the times of Napoleon, the fiery emperor. In several books of historians (both brazilian and Portuguese) there are passages inquiring who might have been the father of Dom Miguel: the gardener? The Marquis of Marialva? An anon? problem with Ana Henriques is that Henriques, is a rather common name. But I think the methodology for finding her that you're using is Ok. Check all the Ana Henriques of that time (and place, in this case Madeira) and see whether one of them is a widow. Because there should exist a register of the marriage of Pedro Dias and Ana Henriques. Anyway Ana Henriques and Pedro Dias Saldanha married around 160 and 1622...) So she is certainlyh not the Ana Henriques that marries your ancestor Sebastião Dias. But the second Ana H. married to a Francisco (Francisco who?) could fit, chronologically speaking. João de Abreu her father could be João de Abreu Henriques, there were some Abreus Henriques, especially from Cãmara de Lobos. Paulo being a descendant of these Henriques (I suppose) as well of the others (the Gomes Henriques) may know something about this. I am going to ask for Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias (Saldanha) baptism certificates. On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > Let's not forget the Braganças... > Please let me know if you get anywhere with Ana Henriques. Note that there > is a Ana Henriques who is a window by 1662. She marries Sebastião Dias, > Caniço, 1662, 902, 239vo. I have that certificate, because Sebastião is a > brother to my ancestor Jorge Dias and my great (7) grandfather Inácio > Fernandes, if I have got all of this correct!. > There is a Ana Henriques married to Francisco sometime in 1640's. She must > be the same one. She is the daughter of João de Abreu and Angela Rodrigues. > I can't find this marriage in Caniço. There is João de Abreu married to > Angela Lopes in Arco da Calheta in 1617. > Is that Angela, a Lopes de Sá? > In 1676 Sebastião's brother João marries Maria de Santiago who is said to > be a daughter of Ana Heriques (Francisco is dead at this time) so it seems > that it is from her first marriage. > Our Ana is married to Saldanha sometime in 1625. Can you make a connection? > I said above that I estimate her marriage between 1600 and 162...But I still can+t make a connection. Thanks for the input, it remains a possibility. Best regards,, Miguel > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 4:35 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) > > José, > > However bastard lines were quite common, even the Portuguese Royal House, > had bastards who became Kings (Like D. João I, the first of the Avis line). > In the Case of noble lines, like the Saldanhas,bastards would not have > sucxh > delicate feelings for the other legitimate sons, and they would not > hesitate > in using that name. (that was in some sort a redemption from being > bastards) > - And they were legal Saldanhas, anyway., because there was not at all any > discirmination. If your father had such and such a name, the children could > and would use it regardless of the mother. As was the case with Pedro Dias > Saldanha who used the full and traditional name of the Saldanha's. Just > remember that it was an archi.patriarchal society. The ma's line was the > line tat counted. The mother's line only counted if she was noble. > > Anyway what I´m now looking for is from what family was Ana Henriques, his > wife (the wife iof Pedro Dias de Saldanha). > > As Manuel Dias (Saldanha) marriage with Maria de Andrada, descendant of the > Noronha, proves, the Saldanhas, even bastards , could afford marriages with > descendants of the" Capitão Donatário", which means the highest nobility in > Madeira. It was a small Island. Everyone knew its place. These things meant > a lot in these days. Status was measured and transmitted in the minutest > way. Democracy and concepts (and practice) of social equality would only > come 4 centuries later. Even so, even in our days, one cannot say that > nowadays it's all utopic and flowery. Other social barriers, others > snobbishness have arised. > > > > > > > > > > > > i > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > On the Saldanhas...still > > The fact is that our Pedro Dias Saldanha came from a bastard line. so > they > > weren't 'legal" Saldanhas. I am not sure that the other children would > > appreciate that. That may explain why they dropped the Saldanha name. > > > > José > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 10:56 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) > > > > OK. I retrieved the Sousas from Ribeira Grande, > > Miguel de Castro Henriques to prt-madeira > > show details Jan 22 > > > > To all who descend from the Burgos, > > > > Manuel César Furtado, a genealogist who knows a lot about Açores > genealogy > > and medieval genealogy, kindly sent me this. > > > > Check the names in bold. > > > > Remember that Jerónimo de Sousa's, from Ribeira Grande, S.Miguel, Açores, > ( > > m. Maria de Sá) parents were Simão Martins and Leonor de Sousa. > > > > It might be possible that Leonor Manuel is the mother of our Leonor de > > Sousa. > > Cronologically and topologically it's quite fitting. > > > > > > Then Simoa Martins married to Pedro Jorge and owner of a land with "foro" > > could be the mother of Simâo Martins, husband of Leonor de Sousa. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CAPÍTULO 132.º > > DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE IREZA DE SOUSA > > § 1.º > > 1 - Ireza de Sousa, natural da Irlanda, no dizer de Frutuoso, e dama da > > rainha D. Leonor (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § I). Casou em Portugal > com > > um fidalgo, cujo nome Frutuoso não soube, o qual era morador em Souzel, > > donde veio para a Ilha de S. Miguel por matar um corregedor, fixando > > residência com sua mulher em Vila Franca e depois no Telhal da Lomba da > > Ribeira Grande. Ireza de Sousa e seu marido vieram para esta Ilha no > tempo > > do Capitão Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. > > Tiveram: > > 2 - João de Sousa, que esteve em África no tempo de el-rei D. Manuel, > onde > > foi armado Cavaleiro (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § III e V). Casou com > > Isabel Alvares, mulher nobre. > > Tiveram: > > 3 - Baltazar Vaz de Sousa, foi morador na Ribeira Grande, ao Telhal e > > morreu > > em Porto Seguro, no Brasil (Vide os seus feitos no Cap.º XXIV do Livro IV > > das Saudades da Terra, e também no Cap.º LXI do mesmo Livro, onde se vê > que > > era magarefe). Sua mulher morreu na freguesia da Matriz da Ribeira Grande > a > > 13.4.1654 com testamento, sendo testamenteiro seu filho João de Sousa. > > Casou > > com Leonor Manuel. > > Tiveram: > > 4 - Nuno de Sousa, Capitão de ordenanças na Ribeira Grande, aí morador e > em > > S. Pedro da Ribeira Seca onde morreu a 11.4.1610 (Frutuoso, Livro IV, > Cap.º > > XXIV § VIII e Cap.º XLVI § II). De um livro da Misericórdia de Ponta > > Delgada > > de 1614, consta que os herdeiros de Nuno de Sousa, da Ribeira Grande, > devem > > há muito tempo à Misericórdia de Ponta Delgada um foro e são elas as > > seguintes: Bárbara de Paiva, Isabel Paim, Madalena de Paiva e Heitor > > Fernandes, genro. A terra deste foro tinha sido de Simoa Martins, mulher > de > > Pedro Jorge. Casou a primeira vez com Catarina de Moura, irmã do Padre > > Antonio de Moura, de Ponta Delgada, a qual morreu na freguesia Matriz da > > Ribeira Grande a 20.4.1560 com testamento em que deixa a terça a suas > > filhas > > e nomeando o marido testamenteiro. Casou a segunda vez com Francisca de > > Paiva . > > Teve da primeira mulher: > > 5 - Jerônima de Sousa, que casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande a 22.1.1569 > > com > > Brás do Rego Rodovalho. > > > > CAPÍTULO 18.º > > DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE GONÇALO DO REGO, O VELHO > > § 1.º > > 1 - Gonçalo do Rego, o Velho, veio para S. Miguel no tempo do Capitão > > Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. Era natural do Porto e veio de lá > > parece > > que já viúvo da primeira mulher e com três filhos dela (Frutuoso, Livro > IV, > > Cap.º XXII). Casou a segunda vez com Isabel Pires. > > Teve do 2.º casamento: > > 2 - Manuel do Rego. Casou com Maria Jerônima. > > Tiveram: > > 3 - Braz do Rego Rodovalho, casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande, a > 22.1.1569, > > com Jerônima de Sousa. > > Tiveram: > > 4 - Gonçalo do Rego de Sousa, que consta do termo de óbito de sua tia > > Beatriz de Sousa (falecida em S. Pedro Ribeira Grande a 1.2.1611), de > quem > > foi herdeiro. Aí se diz ser filho de Jerônima de Sousa. Faleceu na Matriz > > de > > Ponta Delgada a 23.10.1659. Casou Maria da Cunha Teixeira, falecida na > > Matriz de Ponta Delgada a 10.2.1633, filha de Luís Martins e Isabel da > > Cunha. > > Tiveram: > > 5 - Calisto do Rego e Sousa, batizado na Matriz de Ponta Delgada a > > 18.10.1627. Casou em S. Pedro de Ponta Delgada, a 10.2.1649, com Maria > > Cabral de Melo. > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Miguel/Cecce > > > Re: burgos/viana etc. > > > Children of Maria de Cairos marry into all of these families, i.e. > Viana > > > de Cairos etc. At least in my family! > > > > > > José > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 9:01 AM > > > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:06 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > Jose said: It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. > His > > > > grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know > the > > > > Ferreiras, but it seems odd. > > > > > > > > Miguel said:I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from > > > Diogo > > > > Dias (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > > > > > > > Cece says: Looks like both Diogo and Manuel children decided that > their > > > > mothers names were "better", because neither became Dias Saldanhas. > > Diogo > > > > Dias son is Antonio Ferreira and Manuel Dias son is Matias Andrade > -so > > > both > > > > took Moms name instead. > > > > > > > > The point is that both Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias are the sons of > Pedro > > > Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. So they were really sons of their > > mothers > > > and fathers, and legitimate Saldanhas. The Dias comes from the g. > parent > > of > > > both Diogo and Manuel - Diogo Dias Saldanha, Ouvidor em Machico m. to > D. > > > Mara Catanho, dau, of António Vieira, meirinho, and D. Margarida > Catanho. > > > > > > 1.Diogo Saldanha. (Had lands in Santo da Serra,in 149..). > > > 1.2. Digo Saldanha. (Build the church in that "freguesia", around 1520) > > > ..... > > > 1.3. Gui or Diogo Ennes Saldanha m. 1558 Isabel Fernandes (Quite > possibly > > > direct descendant of the former), they had: > > > 1.4. Diogo Dias Saldanha m. D. Maria Catanho, had from Concórdia > > Fernandes > > > (black?): > > > 1.5. Pedro Dias Saldanha m. Ana Henriques,had > > > 1.6. Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias (Saldanha) > > > > > > > > > > > > Matias takes the name from her mother, indeed. The Andrades in that > time > > > was > > > a "better" name to use. The Andrades were still on their rise, and the > > > Saldanhas beggining their descent. I wonder why they did not use the > > > Noronha? But once again in that time the Andrade name supplanted the > > > Noronha. > > > Manuel Abranches de Soveral, the well known medieval genealogist once > > told > > > me that the Henriques name was then prime choice. (Remember that the > > > Noronhas were Henriques de Noronha). Only later the Noronha name - > > because > > > of the rise of Noronhas to the first rank of nobility . came to be > > > foremost. > > > > > > I know that this may sound a bit far-fetched in your hiper-democratic > > > countries. But the name sensitivity in Portugal was enormous. Still > > exists, > > > but of course with the spread of education, nowadays the academic > titles > > > count more socially than the historical names. Even só, they still > carry > > > some weight, but nothing compared with former centuries. > > > > > > Anyway,in the 17 th century (and not only) for the sake of time economy > > > sometimes the priests dropped the last name. In social use it was more > > > simple to be known by name and surname. Or even by name and locality > cf, > > > Tristão da Ilha. João da Ponta. Manuel da Fonte., etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jose said: On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e > > > > Sousa, > > > > Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > > > > > > > Cece says-Tome de Burgos is my ancestor and Manuel de Viana (de > Caires) > > > is > > > > his son in law-married to his daughter Antonia. > > > > I don't see any familial relationship to Diogo Dias yet, though it > may > > be > > > > there - do you? > > > > > > > > > > I don't see any either. Maybe they did not have any. We already > discussed > > > the Burgos, I think. They had a link with the Calaças, And they were > most > > > probably from Spain. > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, > Jose > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:24 AM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > You keep up like this and I am going to have to get part of the > family > > > > will! > > > > > > > > I have heard of the Duke but I don't know or remember where Praça de > > > > Saldanha in Lisbon is. However, may I accept your invitation, and God > > > > willing or "Oxalá que tenhamos boa saúde e tempo" and we shall meet > for > > a > > > > celebration. > > > > > > > > On the Duke you are going to have to work that line for me. > > > > It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His grandson > > > > António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the > > Ferreiras, > > > > but it seems odd. > > > > On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, > > Manuel > > > de > > > > Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > > > > > > > José, waiting for that manzanillo > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > Castro > > > > Henriques > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:43 AM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > > > Ok. José- > > > > > > > > So we have one more couple of ancestors in common! > > > > > > > > > > > > The name is Pedro. > > > > I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo Dias > > > > (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > > > > > > > Shall we meet for a coffee and a cup of manzanillo in Praça de > Saldanha > > > to > > > > celebrate? > > > > > > > > The Duke is still our cousin, after all ; -) > > > > > > > > Bitório was written according to the Northern (North of Portugal) > > accent. > > > > They still say baca for vaca, bino for vinho. And Bitório for Vitório > > or > > > > Vitorino. > > > > > > > > So he is Vitório or Vitorino Pires. Though the old and "wrong" (wrong > > for > > > > southerners) Bitório is endearing. > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > And... > > > > > > > > > > On Dias Saldanha ( can't decipher his first name) who married Ana > > > > > Henriques, but I can't find that certificate, his son is Diogo Dias > > > > > who marries Maria Ferreira in Caniço, 1651, 902, 225V. > > > > > > > > > > On Filipa Do Quintal, this is how it is spelled in their daughters' > > > > > marriage certificate (Ana Pires) how do you spell her husband's > name? > > > > > Bitorio or is it an old writing for Victorino? > > > > > > > > > > José > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in > > this > > > > incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: > > > 12/03/09 > > > > 07:32:00 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Miguel, Let's not forget the Braganças... Please let me know if you get anywhere with Ana Henriques. Note that there is a Ana Henriques who is a window by 1662. She marries Sebastião Dias, Caniço, 1662, 902, 239vo. I have that certificate, because Sebastião is a brother to my ancestor Jorge Dias and my great (7) grandfather Inácio Fernandes, if I have got all of this correct!. There is a Ana Henriques married to Francisco sometime in 1640's. She must be the same one. She is the daughter of João de Abreu and Angela Rodrigues. I can't find this marriage in Caniço. There is João de Abreu married to Angela Lopes in Arco da Calheta in 1617. In 1676 Sebastião's brother João marries Maria de Santiago who is said to be a daughter of Ana Heriques (Francisco is dead at this time) so it seems that it is from her first marriage. Our Ana is married to Saldanha sometime in 1625. Can you make a connection? José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 4:35 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) José, However bastard lines were quite common, even the Portuguese Royal House, had bastards who became Kings (Like D. João I, the first of the Avis line). In the Case of noble lines, like the Saldanhas,bastards would not have sucxh delicate feelings for the other legitimate sons, and they would not hesitate in using that name. (that was in some sort a redemption from being bastards) - And they were legal Saldanhas, anyway., because there was not at all any discirmination. If your father had such and such a name, the children could and would use it regardless of the mother. As was the case with Pedro Dias Saldanha who used the full and traditional name of the Saldanha's. Just remember that it was an archi.patriarchal society. The ma's line was the line tat counted. The mother's line only counted if she was noble. Anyway what I´m now looking for is from what family was Ana Henriques, his wife (the wife iof Pedro Dias de Saldanha). As Manuel Dias (Saldanha) marriage with Maria de Andrada, descendant of the Noronha, proves, the Saldanhas, even bastards , could afford marriages with descendants of the" Capitão Donatário", which means the highest nobility in Madeira. It was a small Island. Everyone knew its place. These things meant a lot in these days. Status was measured and transmitted in the minutest way. Democracy and concepts (and practice) of social equality would only come 4 centuries later. Even so, even in our days, one cannot say that nowadays it's all utopic and flowery. Other social barriers, others snobbishness have arised. i On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > On the Saldanhas...still > The fact is that our Pedro Dias Saldanha came from a bastard line. so they > weren't 'legal" Saldanhas. I am not sure that the other children would > appreciate that. That may explain why they dropped the Saldanha name. > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 10:56 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) > > OK. I retrieved the Sousas from Ribeira Grande, > Miguel de Castro Henriques to prt-madeira > show details Jan 22 > > To all who descend from the Burgos, > > Manuel César Furtado, a genealogist who knows a lot about Açores genealogy > and medieval genealogy, kindly sent me this. > > Check the names in bold. > > Remember that Jerónimo de Sousa's, from Ribeira Grande, S.Miguel, Açores, ( > m. Maria de Sá) parents were Simão Martins and Leonor de Sousa. > > It might be possible that Leonor Manuel is the mother of our Leonor de > Sousa. > Cronologically and topologically it's quite fitting. > > > Then Simoa Martins married to Pedro Jorge and owner of a land with "foro" > could be the mother of Simâo Martins, husband of Leonor de Sousa. > > > > > > > CAPÍTULO 132.º > DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE IREZA DE SOUSA > § 1.º > 1 - Ireza de Sousa, natural da Irlanda, no dizer de Frutuoso, e dama da > rainha D. Leonor (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § I). Casou em Portugal com > um fidalgo, cujo nome Frutuoso não soube, o qual era morador em Souzel, > donde veio para a Ilha de S. Miguel por matar um corregedor, fixando > residência com sua mulher em Vila Franca e depois no Telhal da Lomba da > Ribeira Grande. Ireza de Sousa e seu marido vieram para esta Ilha no tempo > do Capitão Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. > Tiveram: > 2 - João de Sousa, que esteve em África no tempo de el-rei D. Manuel, onde > foi armado Cavaleiro (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § III e V). Casou com > Isabel Alvares, mulher nobre. > Tiveram: > 3 - Baltazar Vaz de Sousa, foi morador na Ribeira Grande, ao Telhal e > morreu > em Porto Seguro, no Brasil (Vide os seus feitos no Cap.º XXIV do Livro IV > das Saudades da Terra, e também no Cap.º LXI do mesmo Livro, onde se vê que > era magarefe). Sua mulher morreu na freguesia da Matriz da Ribeira Grande a > 13.4.1654 com testamento, sendo testamenteiro seu filho João de Sousa. > Casou > com Leonor Manuel. > Tiveram: > 4 - Nuno de Sousa, Capitão de ordenanças na Ribeira Grande, aí morador e em > S. Pedro da Ribeira Seca onde morreu a 11.4.1610 (Frutuoso, Livro IV, Cap.º > XXIV § VIII e Cap.º XLVI § II). De um livro da Misericórdia de Ponta > Delgada > de 1614, consta que os herdeiros de Nuno de Sousa, da Ribeira Grande, devem > há muito tempo à Misericórdia de Ponta Delgada um foro e são elas as > seguintes: Bárbara de Paiva, Isabel Paim, Madalena de Paiva e Heitor > Fernandes, genro. A terra deste foro tinha sido de Simoa Martins, mulher de > Pedro Jorge. Casou a primeira vez com Catarina de Moura, irmã do Padre > Antonio de Moura, de Ponta Delgada, a qual morreu na freguesia Matriz da > Ribeira Grande a 20.4.1560 com testamento em que deixa a terça a suas > filhas > e nomeando o marido testamenteiro. Casou a segunda vez com Francisca de > Paiva . > Teve da primeira mulher: > 5 - Jerônima de Sousa, que casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande a 22.1.1569 > com > Brás do Rego Rodovalho. > > CAPÍTULO 18.º > DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE GONÇALO DO REGO, O VELHO > § 1.º > 1 - Gonçalo do Rego, o Velho, veio para S. Miguel no tempo do Capitão > Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. Era natural do Porto e veio de lá > parece > que já viúvo da primeira mulher e com três filhos dela (Frutuoso, Livro IV, > Cap.º XXII). Casou a segunda vez com Isabel Pires. > Teve do 2.º casamento: > 2 - Manuel do Rego. Casou com Maria Jerônima. > Tiveram: > 3 - Braz do Rego Rodovalho, casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande, a 22.1.1569, > com Jerônima de Sousa. > Tiveram: > 4 - Gonçalo do Rego de Sousa, que consta do termo de óbito de sua tia > Beatriz de Sousa (falecida em S. Pedro Ribeira Grande a 1.2.1611), de quem > foi herdeiro. Aí se diz ser filho de Jerônima de Sousa. Faleceu na Matriz > de > Ponta Delgada a 23.10.1659. Casou Maria da Cunha Teixeira, falecida na > Matriz de Ponta Delgada a 10.2.1633, filha de Luís Martins e Isabel da > Cunha. > Tiveram: > 5 - Calisto do Rego e Sousa, batizado na Matriz de Ponta Delgada a > 18.10.1627. Casou em S. Pedro de Ponta Delgada, a 10.2.1649, com Maria > Cabral de Melo. > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel/Cecce > > Re: burgos/viana etc. > > Children of Maria de Cairos marry into all of these families, i.e. Viana > > de Cairos etc. At least in my family! > > > > José > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 9:01 AM > > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:06 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Jose said: It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His > > > grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the > > > Ferreiras, but it seems odd. > > > > > > Miguel said:I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from > > Diogo > > > Dias (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > > > > > Cece says: Looks like both Diogo and Manuel children decided that their > > > mothers names were "better", because neither became Dias Saldanhas. > Diogo > > > Dias son is Antonio Ferreira and Manuel Dias son is Matias Andrade -so > > both > > > took Moms name instead. > > > > > > The point is that both Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias are the sons of Pedro > > Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. So they were really sons of their > mothers > > and fathers, and legitimate Saldanhas. The Dias comes from the g. parent > of > > both Diogo and Manuel - Diogo Dias Saldanha, Ouvidor em Machico m. to D. > > Mara Catanho, dau, of António Vieira, meirinho, and D. Margarida Catanho. > > > > 1.Diogo Saldanha. (Had lands in Santo da Serra,in 149..). > > 1.2. Digo Saldanha. (Build the church in that "freguesia", around 1520) > > ..... > > 1.3. Gui or Diogo Ennes Saldanha m. 1558 Isabel Fernandes (Quite possibly > > direct descendant of the former), they had: > > 1.4. Diogo Dias Saldanha m. D. Maria Catanho, had from Concórdia > Fernandes > > (black?): > > 1.5. Pedro Dias Saldanha m. Ana Henriques,had > > 1.6. Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias (Saldanha) > > > > > > > > Matias takes the name from her mother, indeed. The Andrades in that time > > was > > a "better" name to use. The Andrades were still on their rise, and the > > Saldanhas beggining their descent. I wonder why they did not use the > > Noronha? But once again in that time the Andrade name supplanted the > > Noronha. > > Manuel Abranches de Soveral, the well known medieval genealogist once > told > > me that the Henriques name was then prime choice. (Remember that the > > Noronhas were Henriques de Noronha). Only later the Noronha name - > because > > of the rise of Noronhas to the first rank of nobility . came to be > > foremost. > > > > I know that this may sound a bit far-fetched in your hiper-democratic > > countries. But the name sensitivity in Portugal was enormous. Still > exists, > > but of course with the spread of education, nowadays the academic titles > > count more socially than the historical names. Even só, they still carry > > some weight, but nothing compared with former centuries. > > > > Anyway,in the 17 th century (and not only) for the sake of time economy > > sometimes the priests dropped the last name. In social use it was more > > simple to be known by name and surname. Or even by name and locality cf, > > Tristão da Ilha. João da Ponta. Manuel da Fonte., etc. > > > > > > > > > Jose said: On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e > > > Sousa, > > > Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > > > > > Cece says-Tome de Burgos is my ancestor and Manuel de Viana (de Caires) > > is > > > his son in law-married to his daughter Antonia. > > > I don't see any familial relationship to Diogo Dias yet, though it may > be > > > there - do you? > > > > > > > I don't see any either. Maybe they did not have any. We already discussed > > the Burgos, I think. They had a link with the Calaças, And they were most > > probably from Spain. > > > > regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose > > > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:24 AM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > You keep up like this and I am going to have to get part of the family > > > will! > > > > > > I have heard of the Duke but I don't know or remember where Praça de > > > Saldanha in Lisbon is. However, may I accept your invitation, and God > > > willing or "Oxalá que tenhamos boa saúde e tempo" and we shall meet for > a > > > celebration. > > > > > > On the Duke you are going to have to work that line for me. > > > It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His grandson > > > António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the > Ferreiras, > > > but it seems odd. > > > On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, > Manuel > > de > > > Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > > > > > José, waiting for that manzanillo > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > Castro > > > Henriques > > > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:43 AM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > Ok. José- > > > > > > So we have one more couple of ancestors in common! > > > > > > > > > The name is Pedro. > > > I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo Dias > > > (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > > > > > Shall we meet for a coffee and a cup of manzanillo in Praça de Saldanha > > to > > > celebrate? > > > > > > The Duke is still our cousin, after all ; -) > > > > > > Bitório was written according to the Northern (North of Portugal) > accent. > > > They still say baca for vaca, bino for vinho. And Bitório for Vitório > or > > > Vitorino. > > > > > > So he is Vitório or Vitorino Pires. Though the old and "wrong" (wrong > for > > > southerners) Bitório is endearing. > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > And... > > > > > > > > On Dias Saldanha ( can't decipher his first name) who married Ana > > > > Henriques, but I can't find that certificate, his son is Diogo Dias > > > > who marries Maria Ferreira in Caniço, 1651, 902, 225V. > > > > > > > > On Filipa Do Quintal, this is how it is spelled in their daughters' > > > > marriage certificate (Ana Pires) how do you spell her husband's name? > > > > Bitorio or is it an old writing for Victorino? > > > > > > > > José > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in > this > > > incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: > > 12/03/09 > > > 07:32:00 > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

hey jose, thank you for your comments. please by my guest. i would love to hear your opinions and suggestions. thanks leandro In a message dated 12/7/2009 2:44:48 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Thanks Leandro. It looks great. If you get keep up like this I have to retire just to read all of this stuff! I will one of these days. It seems that you have put a lot of work into this, Leandro. Cheers, José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected]m Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 5:14 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] website hey guys, especially Cece, Ed, Jeff, Lou, Zack, Jose, Pat and Zelia, I just updated my website: _http://teles.tribalpages.com_ (http://teles.tribalpages.com) and put your ancestors of each of you with a coloured box, so in that way would be easier to follow p how close we are related. let me know what you guys think thank u leandro In a message dated 12/5/2009 3:44:52 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Lou, Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever be. For us living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally expected names from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if not all (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many people. So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from the Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also have Homens from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know there are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de Sousa, Homem de Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at all, because a simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken from people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a very ancient Portuguese family. Well, I hope I was of some help, Best regards, Miguel PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his marriage to Maria Lopes? Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo as ascendant. Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> wrote: > Miguel > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn mode and > have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is > mentioned > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues Duarte on 16 > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter Maria Lopes > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book #454, fl 81) > > Regards, > Lou > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > Hello Lu, > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean typical > names from these times. > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any Drummond > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or daughter ? > > Regards, > > Miguel > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > All, > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am sending them > out > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or hints are > > appreciated. > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar de Baixo > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is welcomed. > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Leandro. It looks great. If you get keep up like this I have to retire just to read all of this stuff! I will one of these days. It seems that you have put a lot of work into this, Leandro. Cheers, José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 5:14 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] website hey guys, especially Cece, Ed, Jeff, Lou, Zack, Jose, Pat and Zelia, I just updated my website: _http://teles.tribalpages.com_ (http://teles.tribalpages.com) and put your ancestors of each of you with a coloured box, so in that way would be easier to follow p how close we are related. let me know what you guys think thank u leandro In a message dated 12/5/2009 3:44:52 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Lou, Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever be. For us living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally expected names from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if not all (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many people. So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from the Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also have Homens from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know there are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de Sousa, Homem de Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at all, because a simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken from people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a very ancient Portuguese family. Well, I hope I was of some help, Best regards, Miguel PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his marriage to Maria Lopes? Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo as ascendant. Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> wrote: > Miguel > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn mode and > have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is > mentioned > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues Duarte on 16 > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter Maria Lopes > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book #454, fl 81) > > Regards, > Lou > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > Hello Lu, > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean typical > names from these times. > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any Drummond > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or daughter ? > > Regards, > > Miguel > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > All, > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am sending them > out > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or hints are > > appreciated. > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar de Baixo > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is welcomed. > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Leandro, Rui Colaço de Abreu & Filipa Rodrigues are the parents I show for Leonor de Abreu... again sourced as Paulo with these copied from Paulo's e-mail: (see #3 in particular) §1 1. Lopo Fernandes Pinto, first to come to Madeira, according to HHN, m. Catarina Álvares, daughter of Luís Álvares, Esquire. Catarina brings the surname COSTA into this family. They had: 2. Jorge Pinto, Cidadão, Homem Bom 2. Lopo da Costa, Homem Bom, m. Guiomar Ousel §2 2. Diogo Pinto m. Juliana Carreiro §3 Jorge Pinto, Cidadão, dead 1552, buried in Capela Mor de Nª Srª do Calhau, where already were his parents and his wife. This means they were patrons of that church. Sai to have married Maria Lopes de Sequeira. Designated heir and administrator of the Morgado he created was his son: 3. Jorge Pinto, 1º Morgado da Ilha, dead 1559. Married Leonor de Abreu. There is no creature by the name of "D. Leonor da Costa e Atouguia" or whatever, it's an invention. Leonor de Abreu is said to have been the daughter of a documented Rui Colaço de Abreu & Filipa Rodrigues. Designated heir and administrator was his son: 4. Pedro da Costa Pinto, 2º Morgado da Ilha. Apparently he also administrated a 2nd vinculo created in some estate in the Ribeira de S. João. This 2nd vinculo paid the pious charges instituted by his father, the Ilha vinculo paid the ones instituted by his grandfather. He married Isabel Ferreira in 1548, Sé. 4. Diogo Nunes Pinto, married Margarida Anes de Amil. 4. João Nunes da Costa, Cónego na Sé, said to have died in 1557, which is incorrect. Note the sudden presence of the surname NUNES here. This is an hint that something is wrong here. Either Maria Lopes is an invention, or Leonor de Abreu ancestry is incorrect. §2 Lopo da Costa, Homem Bom, married Guiomar Ousel (same as Uzel), daughter of João Vaz, Knight, and Inês da Rosa. Designated heir, their son: 3. Pedro da Costa. Probably the Pedro da Costa who in 1546 couldn't serve as almotace because he was defending himself against a criminal accusation in Portugal. This almotace could be as well his cousin Pedro da Costa, though he seem a bit young to have already commited a crime and being a defendat by that time. §3 Diogo Pinto & Juliana Carreiro, said to be parents of: 3. Pedro Carreiro, married with Antónia Rebela in 1539, Sé. She is said to be daughter of Diogo Rebelo, Knight, and Andresa de Abreu. They had: 4. Andresa de Abreu m. Tristão Gomes de Castro in 1568, Sé (as 2nd wife) 4. Juliana Carreiro m. Martim de Ornelas in 1592, Sé Note that §3 is not documented (to my knowledge) and may not even exist. In fact the Pinto & Costa surnames are totally absent from this branch, which is an hint that it may be a forged connection. _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 12:30 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] website Cece, I have leonor de abreu being the daughter of Rodrigo alvares da costa and ines delgado. Is that info wrong then? Thanks Leandro In a message dated 07/12/2009 02:59:31 Romance Standard Time, [email protected] writes: I will take this opportunity to answer why I have Leonor as Leonor de Abreu - not sure about Leandro! It has to do with discussion here involving our beloved but often MIA, Paulo...these are my notes on Leonor: "Paulo says this name is wrong...calls her Leonor de Abreu instead: Jorge Pinto, 1º Morgado da Ilha, dead 1559. Married Leonor de Abreu. There is no creature by the name of "D. Leonor da Costa e Atouguia" or whatever, it's an invention. Leonor de Abreu is said to have been the daughter of a documented Rui Colaço de Abreu & Filipa Rodrigues. Designated heir and administrator was his son: Paulo continues: Forget everything you've read about that "Leonor da Costa e Atouguia", which is an invented creature. After decyphering the death record of Jorge Pinto the younger I could read that he was married to Leonor DE ABREU, who he designated as heir and will executor. After her death all the "fazenda" would pass to their son, Pedro da Costa. There is not a shred of doubt that the Costa surname was already in the family, since Jorge Pinto the younger had a documented paternal uncle named Lopo da Costa, so this late "Leonor da Costa" was really unecessary to explain it. Leonor de Abreu is said somewhere to be from the Abreus Colaços, which is quite plausible. Catarina Álvares was daughter of Luís Álvares, Esquire, which is a COSTA even if he never used that surname himself. His family acquired the position of "Contador dos Contos da Ilha da Madeira" when his son Francisco Álvares married Branca de Atouguia, who brought the position in her "dote". As such - I have detached Leonor de Atougia da Costa from her parents as originally provided by geneall and changed her name and parentage as Paulo suggests above." Basically - it all sounded good to me and I did not have anything to prove either name as "right" or "wrong"...but I know Paulo does his homework so figured as long as I added my notes it could always be changed back later ;-) Cece -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 7:39 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] website Leadro, I hope that I'm not re-visiting a subject that you and others may have already answered, but I have been known to be a "testa dura (sic?)." In viewing your TribalPages website, I have a couple questions: 1. You have a Leonor Abreu married to Jorge Pinto, with Leonor's parents being Rodrigo Alvares Da Costa and Ines Delgado. I have the a Leonore de Atouguia da Costa married to a Jorge Pinto, with my Leonor having the same parents as you... Are you saying that your Leonor Abreu is the same person as Leonor de Atouguia da Costa? If so, what's your source for her referencing her surname as Abreu? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 2. Isabel Fernandes (a Velha d'a Serra) you have her parents being Fernao Nunes Cardoso and a Lucrecia Lopes... I have her as being the daughter of Fernao Nunes Cardoso and a Catharina de Gouveia...with the following source notes: "Nobiliario da Madeira by Henrique Henriques de Noronha. Titulo: Delgados. Pedro Delgado, a quem chamárão de alcunha o Nabo, era natural de Portugal, d’a Arruda; passou com sua mulher a viver a esta Ilha pouco depois de seu descobrimento. Foi casado com Izabel Fernandes, a quem chamárão a Vêlha d’a Serra, filha de Fernão Nunes Cardoso, e de Catharina de Gouvêa." Was Lucrecia Lopes another wife of Fernao Nunes Cardoso, if so what's your source? Pat p.s. Hopefully Miguel will add his comments as to who the parents of Isabel Fernandes (a Velha d'a Serra)may have been. Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2009 8:40:51 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] website hey Miguel, you are MORE THAN WELCOME to make suggestions and add new info. Actually, not only you but all our cousins from the forum, which im so proud to be related to. These cyber space is quite nice actually, it feels like a big family. Thank you for your compliments and im looking forward to hear from you all. Leandro In a message dated 06/12/2009 17:30:40 Romance Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Leandro, Great job! Looks like an anthology of almost all Madeiran families - it shows our many connections. For the moment I'm just seeing. You won't mind if I point some corrections, namely in parts that are atributed to me? Some I have new data, others I have abandoned due to new facts and documents. Anyway a genealogical work is always a work in progress, subject to significant changes sometimes, to minor alterations. Where to start? Well I picked , for a start, Afonso da Mata, who was Escudeiro, and Isabel de Freitas. They are well known amidst the founding fathers of all Gaula families. Quite recently I discovered that Isabel de Freitas comes from the Freitas of Terras de Bouro (North of Portugal). It seems a promising line. Yet certainly very difficult to track since it's medieval. I'll try to ask in another forum to some MEDIEVAL specialists who were these Freitas. Clode says that Isabel de Freitas, bescause she was from S. Cruz "probably" belonged to the well known Freitas of Santa Cruz. It's a possibility. But I don't know the origin of these, apart what is common knowledge . they descend from Gonçalo de Freitas. FCR, Monteiro. Mor do Infante D. Fernando. (I was never able to confirm this title) Well, Once again congratulations and regards, Miguel On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 12:18 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > OK - now tell me how you did it?? :-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:14 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] website > > hey guys, > > especially Cece, Ed, Jeff, Lou, Zack, Jose, Pat and Zelia, > > I just updated my website: _http://teles.tribalpages.com_ > (http://teles.tribalpages.com) > > and put your ancestors of each of you with a coloured box, so in that > way would be easier to follow p how close we are related. > > let me know what you guys think > > thank u > > leandro > > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 3:44:52 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Lou, > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever be. For > us living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally expected > names from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if > not all (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many > people. > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from > the Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also have > Homens from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know > there are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de > Sousa, Homem de Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so > simple at all, > because a simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken from > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a > very ancient Portuguese family. > > > Well, I hope I was of some help, > > Best regards, > > Miguel > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his > marriage to Maria Lopes? > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo > as ascendant. > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. > > > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Miguel > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn mode > > and have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he > is > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco > > Rodrigues Duarte on 16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter > > Maria > Lopes > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book #454, > > fl > > 81) > > > > Regards, > > Lou > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > Castro Henriques > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > Hello Lu, > > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean > > typical names from these times. > > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any > Drummond > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or > > daughter > ? > > > > Regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > All, > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am > > > sending them > > out > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or hints > > > are appreciated. > > > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar > > > de > Baixo > > > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is welcomed. > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found > in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.94/2545 - Release Date: 12/05/09 > 08:13:00 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.94/2545 - Release Date: 12/06/09 19:37:00 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.94/2545 - Release Date: 12/06/09 19:37:00

Leadro, I hope that I'm not re-visiting a subject that you and others may have already answered, but I have been known to be a "testa dura (sic?)." In viewing your TribalPages website, I have a couple questions: 1. You have a Leonor Abreu married to Jorge Pinto, with Leonor's parents being Rodrigo Alvares Da Costa and Ines Delgado. I have the a Leonore de Atouguia da Costa married to a Jorge Pinto, with my Leonor having the same parents as you... Are you saying that your Leonor Abreu is the same person as Leonor de Atouguia da Costa? If so, what's your source for her referencing her surname as Abreu? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 2. Isabel Fernandes (a Velha d'a Serra) you have her parents being Fernao Nunes Cardoso and a Lucrecia Lopes... I have her as being the daughter of Fernao Nunes Cardoso and a Catharina de Gouveia...with the following source notes: "Nobiliario da Madeira by Henrique Henriques de Noronha. Titulo: Delgados. Pedro Delgado, a quem chamárão de alcunha o Nabo, era natural de Portugal, d’a Arruda; passou com sua mulher a viver a esta Ilha pouco depois de seu descobrimento. Foi casado com Izabel Fernandes, a quem chamárão a Vêlha d’a Serra, filha de Fernão Nunes Cardoso, e de Catharina de Gouvêa." Was Lucrecia Lopes another wife of Fernao Nunes Cardoso, if so what's your source? Pat p.s. Hopefully Miguel will add his comments as to who the parents of Isabel Fernandes (a Velha d'a Serra)may have been. Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2009 8:40:51 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] website hey Miguel, you are MORE THAN WELCOME to make suggestions and add new info. Actually, not only you but all our cousins from the forum, which im so proud to be related to. These cyber space is quite nice actually, it feels like a big family. Thank you for your compliments and im looking forward to hear from you all. Leandro In a message dated 06/12/2009 17:30:40 Romance Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Leandro, Great job! Looks like an anthology of almost all Madeiran families - it shows our many connections. For the moment I'm just seeing. You won't mind if I point some corrections, namely in parts that are atributed to me? Some I have new data, others I have abandoned due to new facts and documents. Anyway a genealogical work is always a work in progress, subject to significant changes sometimes, to minor alterations. Where to start? Well I picked , for a start, Afonso da Mata, who was Escudeiro, and Isabel de Freitas. They are well known amidst the founding fathers of all Gaula families. Quite recently I discovered that Isabel de Freitas comes from the Freitas of Terras de Bouro (North of Portugal). It seems a promising line. Yet certainly very difficult to track since it's medieval. I'll try to ask in another forum to some MEDIEVAL specialists who were these Freitas. Clode says that Isabel de Freitas, bescause she was from S. Cruz "probably" belonged to the well known Freitas of Santa Cruz. It's a possibility. But I don't know the origin of these, apart what is common knowledge . they descend from Gonçalo de Freitas. FCR, Monteiro. Mor do Infante D. Fernando. (I was never able to confirm this title) Well, Once again congratulations and regards, Miguel On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 12:18 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > OK - now tell me how you did it?? :-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:14 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] website > > hey guys, > > especially Cece, Ed, Jeff, Lou, Zack, Jose, Pat and Zelia, > > I just updated my website: _http://teles.tribalpages.com_ > (http://teles.tribalpages.com) > > and put your ancestors of each of you with a coloured box, so in that way > would be easier to follow p how close we are related. > > let me know what you guys think > > thank u > > leandro > > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 3:44:52 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Lou, > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever be. For > us living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally expected > names from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if not > all > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many people. > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from the > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also have > Homens from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know > there are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de Sousa, > Homem de Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at all, > because a simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken from > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a very > ancient Portuguese family. > > > Well, I hope I was of some help, > > Best regards, > > Miguel > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his marriage to > Maria Lopes? > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo as > ascendant. > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. > > > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Miguel > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn mode > > and have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues > > Duarte on 16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter Maria > Lopes > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book #454, fl > > 81) > > > > Regards, > > Lou > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > Castro Henriques > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > Hello Lu, > > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean > > typical names from these times. > > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any > Drummond > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or > > daughter > ? > > > > Regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > All, > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am sending > > > them > > out > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or hints > > > are appreciated. > > > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar de > Baixo > > > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is welcomed. > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.94/2545 - Release Date: 12/05/09 > 08:13:00 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hey Pat, Thank you for your comments. Now im very confused because actually i have all these info given from you in some point throughout those years. Not sure when. Probably along the way you correct your sources and i never changed mines. Is it possible for MIguel or anyone else also comment or confirm this names? about Lucrecia lopes, i got her info in HHN in the titles of Florenca, so as you can see he must have put 2 different things in the same book :) i welcome you comments on this Leandro In a message dated 07/12/2009 02:39:28 Romance Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Leadro, I hope that I'm not re-visiting a subject that you and others may have already answered, but I have been known to be a "testa dura (sic?)." In viewing your TribalPages website, I have a couple questions: 1. You have a Leonor Abreu married to Jorge Pinto, with Leonor's parents being Rodrigo Alvares Da Costa and Ines Delgado. I have the a Leonore de Atouguia da Costa married to a Jorge Pinto, with my Leonor having the same parents as you... Are you saying that your Leonor Abreu is the same person as Leonor de Atouguia da Costa? If so, what's your source for her referencing her surname as Abreu? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 2. Isabel Fernandes (a Velha d'a Serra) you have her parents being Fernao Nunes Cardoso and a Lucrecia Lopes... I have her as being the daughter of Fernao Nunes Cardoso and a Catharina de Gouveia...with the following source notes: "Nobiliario da Madeira by Henrique Henriques de Noronha. Titulo: Delgados. Pedro Delgado, a quem chamárão de alcunha o Nabo, era natural de Portugal, d’a Arruda; passou com sua mulher a viver a esta Ilha pouco depois de seu descobrimento. Foi casado com Izabel Fernandes, a quem chamárão a Vêlha d’a Serra, filha de Fernão Nunes Cardoso, e de Catharina de Gouvêa." Was Lucrecia Lopes another wife of Fernao Nunes Cardoso, if so what's your source? Pat p.s. Hopefully Miguel will add his comments as to who the parents of Isabel Fernandes (a Velha d'a Serra)may have been. Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2009 8:40:51 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] website hey Miguel, you are MORE THAN WELCOME to make suggestions and add new info. Actually, not only you but all our cousins from the forum, which im so proud to be related to. These cyber space is quite nice actually, it feels like a big family. Thank you for your compliments and im looking forward to hear from you all. Leandro In a message dated 06/12/2009 17:30:40 Romance Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Leandro, Great job! Looks like an anthology of almost all Madeiran families - it shows our many connections. For the moment I'm just seeing. You won't mind if I point some corrections, namely in parts that are atributed to me? Some I have new data, others I have abandoned due to new facts and documents. Anyway a genealogical work is always a work in progress, subject to significant changes sometimes, to minor alterations. Where to start? Well I picked , for a start, Afonso da Mata, who was Escudeiro, and Isabel de Freitas. They are well known amidst the founding fathers of all Gaula families. Quite recently I discovered that Isabel de Freitas comes from the Freitas of Terras de Bouro (North of Portugal). It seems a promising line. Yet certainly very difficult to track since it's medieval. I'll try to ask in another forum to some MEDIEVAL specialists who were these Freitas. Clode says that Isabel de Freitas, bescause she was from S. Cruz "probably" belonged to the well known Freitas of Santa Cruz. It's a possibility. But I don't know the origin of these, apart what is common knowledge . they descend from Gonçalo de Freitas. FCR, Monteiro. Mor do Infante D. Fernando. (I was never able to confirm this title) Well, Once again congratulations and regards, Miguel On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 12:18 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > OK - now tell me how you did it?? :-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:14 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] website > > hey guys, > > especially Cece, Ed, Jeff, Lou, Zack, Jose, Pat and Zelia, > > I just updated my website: _http://teles.tribalpages.com_ > (http://teles.tribalpages.com) > > and put your ancestors of each of you with a coloured box, so in that way > would be easier to follow p how close we are related. > > let me know what you guys think > > thank u > > leandro > > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 3:44:52 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Lou, > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever be. For > us living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally expected > names from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if not > all > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many people. > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from the > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also have > Homens from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know > there are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de Sousa, > Homem de Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at all, > because a simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken from > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a very > ancient Portuguese family. > > > Well, I hope I was of some help, > > Best regards, > > Miguel > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his marriage to > Maria Lopes? > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo as > ascendant. > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. > > > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Miguel > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn mode > > and have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues > > Duarte on 16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter Maria > Lopes > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book #454, fl > > 81) > > > > Regards, > > Lou > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:prt-madeira-[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > Castro Henriques > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > Hello Lu, > > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean > > typical names from these times. > > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any > Drummond > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or > > daughter > ? > > > > Regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > All, > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am sending > > > them > > out > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or hints > > > are appreciated. > > > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar de > Baixo > > > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is welcomed. > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.94/2545 - Release Date: 12/05/09 > 08:13:00 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Pat, That's great to hear that you guys are enjoying my site. Is always open for suggestions, additions and corrections. My aim is to build a big net where we can all found ourselves in there :) Leandro In a message dated 06/12/2009 22:09:43 Romance Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Leandro, Very interesting!!! I did the same, but with only my parents...sure makes it easier in following direct line ancestors and relatives. I'll check out my connection with yours, and get back to you later if I have any questions... Good Job! Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 2:14:04 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] website hey guys, especially Cece, Ed, Jeff, Lou, Zack, Jose, Pat and Zelia, I just updated my website: _http://teles.tribalpages.com_ (http://teles.tribalpages.com) and put your ancestors of each of you with a coloured box, so in that way would be easier to follow p how close we are related. let me know what you guys think thank u leandro In a message dated 12/5/2009 3:44:52 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Lou, Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever be. For us living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally expected names from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if not all (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many people. So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from the Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also have Homens from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know there are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de Sousa, Homem de Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at all, because a simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken from people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a very ancient Portuguese family. Well, I hope I was of some help, Best regards, Miguel PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his marriage to Maria Lopes? Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo as ascendant. Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> wrote: > Miguel > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn mode and > have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is > mentioned > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues Duarte on 16 > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter Maria Lopes > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book #454, fl 81) > > Regards, > Lou > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > Hello Lu, > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean typical > names from these times. > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any Drummond > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or daughter ? > > Regards, > > Miguel > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > All, > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am sending them > out > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or hints are > > appreciated. > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar de Baixo > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is welcomed. > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Leandro is correct...this Franca line is not mine...YET! My direct Franca are Ornelas e Franca to Lemos e Franca and I've yet to figure out where my Lemos got his Franca ;-) -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 1:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Franca hey miguel, do u have the ancestors of leonor caldeira (other than her parents?)? i also dont have the parents of alvaro gomes cabral unfortunately :( cece is not directly linked with this andre franca, i think. leandro In a message dated 06/12/2009 20:43:42 Romance Standard Time, [email protected] writes: You have to look for baptism certificates. And work the ascendancies. The line of FVs you've just posted is also mine and Cece's too, I believe. Since all the others are relatively well known - Leonor Caldeira, for instance, is the daughter of Josè Caldeira and Maria Lourenço, who founded the Capela do Rosário, and left a "Vínculo") I am interested in Álvaro Gomes Cabral. I don't know from where does his Cabral name comes from. But probably from the old Cabrais. And the Cabrais are an interesting lineage - remember Pedro Álvares Cabral? On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 7:24 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > hi miguel, > > funny enough i am linked with andre de franca and his wife leonor thru his > dau francisca franca de vasconcelos married with francisco gois de > carvalho. Their dau branca franca de vasconcelos married antonio vieira de > vasconcelos. they had a son francisco gois de carvalho married leonor > caldeira in s > vicente. aparently this is my first ancestor from this family coming from > machico to sao vicente. they had a daughter francisca maria that married > alvaro gomes de cabral. their son francisco gois de carvalho married maria > francisca. Their son Alvaro gomes married maria dias. their children used > other surnames rather than franca, vasconcelos or gois > > the question is...where can i find the link between maria de franca and the > vasconcelos de franca? i know that as i showed above i come from them, but > thru another link. > > any ideas??? > > > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 20:10:32 Romance Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > mmmm. When I first saw Antònio's son name I thought it might came from > him. But on second thoughts, no. A Vasconcelos would use Vasconcelos, not > the Mendes. There were loads of Mendes, and it's a patronymic. Not that > many > Vasconcelos - one of the "biggest" name you could have in Madeira at that > time. > > So the Vasconcelos almost for sure comes from the mother (as well as the > França - and that happened a lot, a son adopting both his mother's names, > if > they were better than his father's). > > In that case the França de Vasconcelos - in your case as well as in Lou's > - comes very probably from André de França m. D. Leonor de Vasconcelos. > He > son, of João de França and Inês Pires (Escócia) and he g.son of the first > Great and Illustrious Vasconcelos (one of the four Fidalgos sent by the > King > in answer to João Gonçalves Zarco's request) , Martim Mendes de > Vasconcelos > m. Helena Gonçalves da Cãmara. > > regards, > > Miguel > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 5:37 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > do u think that the husband of dona maria de franca could also be a > > vasconcelos? his name was antonio mendes? > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 18:32:37 Romance Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > Ah, that (their son's name) changes the perspective. Either Amaro > Mendes > > was > > a Mendes de Vasconcelos, or more probably she was a França de > Vasconcelos. > > In which case her ascendancy is known. I'll try perhaps tomorrow or > so, > > to > > work that out. But I'm now rather inclined to see Maria de França as a > > França e Vasconcelos, because of her son's name. > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 5:21 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Miguel, > > > > > > i dont have the docs. Just saw once on the microfilms the certificate > of > > > her son's wedding jose franca de vasconcelos with my direct ancestor > > maria > > > telo de meneses in 1728 in sao vicente :( > > > > > > leandro > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 18:16:47 Romance Standard Time, > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > > > as she is a "Dona" chances are she is really from the Franças. The > > Franças > > > were on their rise. They became one of the most powerful families in > > > Madeira. Lords of I don't know how many morgadios. I am also > descended > > for > > > them, unfortunately not from the more fortunate trunks who > inherited > > the > > > lands. The system of morgadio had no pity for second, third, and > fourth > > > sons. > > > > > > Who are the witness or "padrinhos" in that document? > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 3:51 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Miguel.... > > > > > > > > im looking for the francas in S vicente as well. i have antonio > > mendes > > > > married with dona maria de franca in mid 1600s (dont have the > > precise > > > date) > > > > but have no parents of the groom neither the bride. Can you help > me > > with > > > > that > > > > please? > > > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > > > Leandro > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 16:40:05 Romance Standard Time, > > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > > > Hello Lou, > > > > > > > > > > > > The nª 4 Vicente de França de Andrada has a similar name to some > > > Brasões > > > > Teixeiras and Brasões Gouveias from S. Vicente. Have you > explored > > his > > > > line? > > > > Somehow he must be of the Franças and of the Andrades. > > > > > > > > In 4. Is it Sebastina de A. de dau. of the nº 3 ? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:14 AM, Lou Abreu III > <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > 1. Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira (ca. 1590, > > marriage > > > not > > > > > recorded in Ribeira Brava) > > > > > > > > > > 2. Francisco Rodrigues Duarte + Ines Martins(1) (Ribeira > > Brava, > > > 16 > > > > > Sept > > > > > 1614 – B#389, fl 153) > > > > > > > > > > 3. Manuel Duarte(2) + Catarina de Abreu (widow) (Ribeira > > Brava, > > > 27 > > > > Aug > > > > > 1640 – B#390, fl 41) > > > > > > > > > > 4. Vicente de Franca de Andrade + Sebastiana de Abreu(3) > (Sao > > > > Vicente, > > > > > 5 Feb 1670 – B#579, fl 53) > > > > > > > > > > 5. Vicente de Franca(4) + Maria de Sa (Sao Vicente, 3 > Sept > > 1696 > > > – > > > > > B#556, fl 63) > > > > > > > > > > 6. Basilio Pestana + Josefa de Franca(5) (Serra de Agua, 13 > June > > > 1735 > > > > > – > > > > > B#409, fl 24) > > > > > > > > > > 7. Francisco de Andrade(6) + Maria dos Reis (Serra de > Agua, > > 20 > > > Feb > > > > > 1770 > > > > > – B#409, fl 79) > > > > > > > > > > 8. Manuel de Andrade Silva(7) + Ana Maria (Serra de Agua, > 30 > > Jan > > > > 1815 > > > > > – > > > > > B#411, fl 8) > > > > > > > > > > 9. Manuel Pestana de Gouveia + Delfina Maria(8) (Serra de > Agua, > > 9 > > > > July > > > > > 1849 – B#411, fl 110) > > > > > > > > > > 10. Joao de Abreu Amarelo(widower) + Delfina da > Conceicao(9) > > > Serra > > > > de > > > > > Agua, 13 April 1891 – R#6) > > > > > > > > > > 11. Antonio Neves de Abreu Amarelo(10) + Carolina de Sousa > da > > > Camara > > > > > (Ponta do Sol, 3 Feb 1916 –R#2) > > > > > > > > > > 12. Louis Neves Abreu(11) + Maria Pita (Lowell, Massachusetts > > > USA, 9 > > > > > April 1939) > > > > > > > > > > 13. Louis Neves Abreu Jr(12) + Pauline Alice Genest > (Lowell, > > > > > Massachusetts USA, 7 Sept 1959) > > > > > > > > > > 14. Louis Neves Abreu III(13) + Deborah Elaine Bourgeois > > (Lowell, > > > > > Massachusetts, USA 20 Oct 1979) > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > > [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:30 PM > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > > > yes..it helps a lot. do u have the ancestors of ines? im also > > > descendant > > > > of > > > > > the homem family in ribeira brava > > > > > > > > > > thank you > > > > > > > > > > leandro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 1:25:11 A.M. W. Europe Standard > Time, > > > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > > Okay I see the confusion, let me explain > > > > > > > > > > Ines Martin's Parents are Francisco Goncalves Homem and Isabel > > > Pereira > > > > > (marriage not recorded in Ribeira Brava) > > > > > > > > > > I hope that clears up the confusion. > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > > [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 6:32 PM > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > > > hi lou, my doubt is on the children of pedro afonso and leonor > > > homem. > > > > > > > > > > im descended from their dau ines afonso married with fernao > anes. > > > But > > > > pat > > > > > said that you have their dau as ines martins married with > > francisco > > > > > rodrigues duarte. im really confused about that :) > > > > > > > > > > leandro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 12:06:49 A.M. W. Europe Standard > > Time, > > > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > > I am not sure which line we are talking about here, sorry I > am a > > > > little > > > > > spun around on this one, what do you need clarified. > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:58 PM > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Pat > > > > > > > > > > Lou...can u pls clarify this line for us please? > > > > > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > > > > > Leandro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 10:54:59 P.M. W. Europe > Standard > > > Time, > > > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > > > > > > > Not sure if this is the same "person." > > > > > > > > > > The only Pedro Afonso (Cavaleiro) I have is married to > Leonor > > > Homem, > > > > > with > > > > > the children that I mentioned in my posting attention Miguel > > and > > > Lou. > > > > > > > > > > I don't have Pedro's parents, but Leonor's parents are Joao > > Homem > > > (de > > > > > Monte Gordo) and Catarina Vaz. > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully Miguel and/or Paulo will be able to add to this > > thread. > > > > > > > > > > Ines Martins is Lou's ancestor... > > > > > > > > > > I must admit I'm more confused now than when I first started > my > > > > > genealogy > > > > > quest many, many "moons," ago. I'm finding that what was > is > > not > > > > > now...Frustrating to say the least. > > > > > > > > > > I'm trying to sort out Jorge Pinto and Leonor de Atouguia > da > > > Costa's > > > > > line...my info differs from what's in Norhonha- titulo: > > Pintos... > > > > > Nothing > > > > > consent but the state of change...;-))). > > > > > > > > > > Pat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:08:24 PM GMT -08:00 > > US/Canada > > > > Pacific > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > > > > > Pat, > > > > > > > > > > I have Pedro afonso and leonor de sousa having a daughter > > called > > > INES > > > > > AFONSO and not ines martins. also she is married to fernao > anes > > > and > > > > not > > > > > to francisco duarte. Are we talking about the same person > on > > > here? or > > > > > am i mistaken? > > > > > > > > > > Also, Lou, can you send me on my private email > > > [email protected] > > > > > descendency list of manuel duarte and guiomar camacho > please? > > > > > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > > > > > Leandro > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27 pm > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and > Lou) > > > > > > > > > > Pat, > > > > > You are correct with the marriage record, however, his > > baptismal > > > > > record (11 Dec 1586 b#376,fl 202) as recorded by Dr. Mello, > > list > > > his > > > > > full name as Francisco Rodrigues Duarte. His line from > there > > is > > > as > > > > > follows > > > > > > > > > > Parents Manuel Duarte + Guiomar Camacha Ribeira Brava Nov > 26 > > 1584 > > > > > > > > > > Manuel's Parents Francisco Duarte + Maria Fernandes Ribeira > Brava > > > May > > > > > 22 1560 > > > > > > > > > > Guiomar's Parents Francisco Rodrigues Camacho + Catarina > > Pestana > > > > > > > > > > Does this answer your questions? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat > > > Corbera > > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:40 PM > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > > > > > Miguel, > > > > > > > > > > Isn't Pedro Afonso who is married to Leonor Homem one of > your > > > direct > > > > > line ancestors? > > > > > > > > > > Their son Francisco Homem D'El-Rei is my direct line > > ancestors, > > > and > > > > if > > > > > my notes/memory serves me correctly Francisco's brother > Fernao > > > Ennes > > > > is > > > > > your ancestor... > > > > > > > > > > If the above is correct will you please share the descending > > order > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > Fernao Ennes to you... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pat > > > > > > > > > > p.s. Lou do you have this marriage record that you > referenced > > > below? > > > > > On the Madeira Archives listing for this marriage, the > couples' > > > names > > > > > are Ines Martins and Francisco Rodrigues...where did you > get > > the > > > > Duarte > > > > > name from? > > > > > > > > > > >Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a > parish, > > he > > > is > > > > > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to > Francisco > > > > > Rodrigues Duarte on >16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book > > #389,Fl > > > 153) > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:43:30 AM GMT -08:00 > > US/Canada > > > > Pacific > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > > > Lou, > > > > > > > > > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will > > forever > > > be. > > > > > For us > > > > > living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say > totally > > > > expected > > > > > names > > > > > from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, > if > > not > > > all > > > > > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by > many > > > people. > > > > > > > > > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He > must be > > > from > > > > the > > > > > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I > also > > > have > > > > > Homens > > > > > from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As > we > > > know > > > > > there > > > > > are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de > > Sousa, > > > > Homem > > > > > de > > > > > Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple > at > > all, > > > > > because a > > > > > simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three > > types). > > > > > > > > > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a > toponymic > > > taken > > > > > from > > > > > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) > > are a > > > > very > > > > > ancient Portuguese family. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, I hope I was of some help, > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of > his > > > marriage > > > > > to > > > > > Maria Lopes? > > > > > > > > > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has > a > > > Lopo > > > > as > > > > > ascendant. > > > > > > > > > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III < > > > [email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in > > learn > > > > mode > > > > > and > > > > > > have not seen these names on the list that often if at > all. > > > > > > > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a > parish, > > he > > > is > > > > > > mentioned > > > > > > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco > Rodrigues > > > Duarte > > > > > on 16 > > > > > > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > > > > > > > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their > > daughter > > > > Maria > > > > > Lopes > > > > > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol > (book > > > #454, > > > > fl > > > > > 81) > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > Miguel > > > de > > > > > Castro > > > > > > Henriques > > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Lu, > > > > > > > > > > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones > - I > > mean > > > > > typical > > > > > > names from these times. > > > > > > > > > > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > > > > > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a > Drummond. > > > Any > > > > > Drummond > > > > > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his > son > > or > > > > > daughter ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All, > > > > > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I > am > > > sending > > > > > them > > > > > > out > > > > > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any > help > > or > > > hints > > > > are > > > > > > > appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, > dwelling: > > > Lugar > > > > de > > > > > Baixo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior > to > > > 1568 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior > to > > > 1568 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 > 1573 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is > > > > welcomed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > > > [email protected] with the word > > 'unsubscribe' > > > > > without the > > > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > > [email protected] with the word > > 'unsubscribe' > > > > without > > > > > the > > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > > without > > > > > the > > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject > > > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > > without > > > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject > > > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject > > > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject > > > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject > > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject > > and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.94/2545 - Release Date: 12/06/09 07:30:00

Miguel, Not sure if you saw this posting, if so, I didn't recall seeing a reply... Please verify what I wrote... Thank you, Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Corbera" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 9:39:48 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) Miguel, Isn't Pedro Afonso who is married to Leonor Homem one of your direct line ancestors? Their son Francisco Homem D'El-Rei is my direct line ancestors, and if my notes/memory serves me correctly Francisco's brother Fernao Ennes is your ancestor... If the above is correct will you please share the descending order from Fernao Ennes to you... Pat p.s. Lou do you have this marriage record that you referenced below? On the Madeira Archives listing for this marriage, the couples' names are Ines Martins and Francisco Rodrigues...where did you get the Duarte name from? >Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues Duarte on >16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:43:30 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION Lou, Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever be. For us living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally expected names from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if not all (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many people. So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from the Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also have Homens from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know there are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de Sousa, Homem de Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at all, because a simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken from people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a very ancient Portuguese family. Well, I hope I was of some help, Best regards, Miguel PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his marriage to Maria Lopes? Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo as ascendant. Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> wrote: > Miguel > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn mode and > have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is > mentioned > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues Duarte on 16 > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter Maria Lopes > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book #454, fl 81) > > Regards, > Lou > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > Hello Lu, > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean typical > names from these times. > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any Drummond > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or daughter ? > > Regards, > > Miguel > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > All, > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am sending them > out > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or hints are > > appreciated. > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar de Baixo > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is welcomed. > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Leandro, Very interesting!!! I did the same, but with only my parents...sure makes it easier in following direct line ancestors and relatives. I'll check out my connection with yours, and get back to you later if I have any questions... Good Job! Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 2:14:04 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] website hey guys, especially Cece, Ed, Jeff, Lou, Zack, Jose, Pat and Zelia, I just updated my website: _http://teles.tribalpages.com_ (http://teles.tribalpages.com) and put your ancestors of each of you with a coloured box, so in that way would be easier to follow p how close we are related. let me know what you guys think thank u leandro In a message dated 12/5/2009 3:44:52 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Lou, Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever be. For us living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally expected names from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if not all (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many people. So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from the Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also have Homens from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know there are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de Sousa, Homem de Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at all, because a simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken from people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a very ancient Portuguese family. Well, I hope I was of some help, Best regards, Miguel PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his marriage to Maria Lopes? Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo as ascendant. Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> wrote: > Miguel > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn mode and > have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is > mentioned > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues Duarte on 16 > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter Maria Lopes > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book #454, fl 81) > > Regards, > Lou > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > Hello Lu, > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean typical > names from these times. > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any Drummond > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or daughter ? > > Regards, > > Miguel > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > All, > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am sending them > out > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or hints are > > appreciated. > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar de Baixo > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is welcomed. > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Lou, I'm in total agreement!! ;-)). Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lou Abreu III" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 2:24:10 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) Pat, I am convince that we are in a constant state of confusion with our genealogies......that is what makes it fun :))) Lou -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:55 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) Leandro, Not sure if this is the same "person." The only Pedro Afonso (Cavaleiro) I have is married to Leonor Homem, with the children that I mentioned in my posting attention Miguel and Lou. I don't have Pedro's parents, but Leonor's parents are Joao Homem (de Monte Gordo) and Catarina Vaz. Hopefully Miguel and/or Paulo will be able to add to this thread. Ines Martins is Lou's ancestor... I must admit I'm more confused now than when I first started my genealogy quest many, many "moons," ago. I'm finding that what was is not now...Frustrating to say the least. I'm trying to sort out Jorge Pinto and Leonor de Atouguia da Costa's line...my info differs from what's in Norhonha- titulo: Pintos... Nothing consent but the state of change...;-))). Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:08:24 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) Pat, I have Pedro afonso and leonor de sousa having a daughter called INES AFONSO and not ines martins. also she is married to fernao anes and not to francisco duarte. Are we talking about the same person on here? or am i mistaken? Also, Lou, can you send me on my private email [email protected] the descendency list of manuel duarte and guiomar camacho please? Thank you Leandro -----Original Message----- From: Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27 pm Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) Pat, You are correct with the marriage record, however, his baptismal record (11 Dec 1586 b#376,fl 202) as recorded by Dr. Mello, list his full name as Francisco Rodrigues Duarte. His line from there is as follows Parents Manuel Duarte + Guiomar Camacha Ribeira Brava Nov 26 1584 Manuel's Parents Francisco Duarte + Maria Fernandes Ribeira Brava May 22 1560 Guiomar's Parents Francisco Rodrigues Camacho + Catarina Pestana Does this answer your questions? Regards, Lou -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:40 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) Miguel, Isn't Pedro Afonso who is married to Leonor Homem one of your direct line ancestors? Their son Francisco Homem D'El-Rei is my direct line ancestors, and if my notes/memory serves me correctly Francisco's brother Fernao Ennes is your ancestor... If the above is correct will you please share the descending order from Fernao Ennes to you... Pat p.s. Lou do you have this marriage record that you referenced below? On the Madeira Archives listing for this marriage, the couples' names are Ines Martins and Francisco Rodrigues...where did you get the Duarte name from? >Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues Duarte on >16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:43:30 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION Lou, Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever be. For us living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally expected names from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if not all (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many people. So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from the Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also have Homens from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know there are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de Sousa, Homem de Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at all, because a simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken from people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a very ancient Portuguese family. Well, I hope I was of some help, Best regards, Miguel PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his marriage to Maria Lopes? Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo as ascendant. Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> wrote: > Miguel > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn mode and > have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is > mentioned > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues Duarte on 16 > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter Maria Lopes > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book #454, fl 81) > > Regards, > Lou > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > Hello Lu, > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean typical > names from these times. > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any Drummond > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or daughter ? > > Regards, > > Miguel > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > All, > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am sending them > out > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or hints are > > appreciated. > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar de Baixo > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is welcomed. > > > > Lou > >

No, unfortunately. Josè Caldeira and Maria Lourenço are the trunk of the Caldeiras of São Vicente. I don't know if they were noble, possibly. But they were certainly quite wealthy. They created that vínculo that was administered by Francisco de Góis de Carvalho. who was Capitão de Infantaria in freguesia de São Vicente. After, the administration of that Capela came to the Teixeiras Brasões. Miguel On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 7:45 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > hey miguel, > > do u have the ancestors of leonor caldeira (other than her parents?)? i > also dont have the parents of alvaro gomes cabral unfortunately :( > > cece is not directly linked with this andre franca, i think. > > leandro > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 20:43:42 Romance Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > You have to look for baptism certificates. And work the ascendancies. > > The line of FVs you've just posted is also mine and Cece's too, I believe. > Since all the others are relatively well known - Leonor Caldeira, for > instance, is the daughter of Josè Caldeira and Maria Lourenço, who > founded > the Capela do Rosário, and left a "Vínculo") I am interested in Álvaro > Gomes Cabral. I don't know from where does his Cabral name comes from. > But > probably from the old Cabrais. And the Cabrais are an interesting lineage > - > remember Pedro Álvares Cabral? > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 7:24 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > hi miguel, > > > > funny enough i am linked with andre de franca and his wife leonor thru > his > > dau francisca franca de vasconcelos married with francisco gois de > > carvalho. Their dau branca franca de vasconcelos married antonio vieira > de > > vasconcelos. they had a son francisco gois de carvalho married leonor > > caldeira in s > > vicente. aparently this is my first ancestor from this family coming > from > > machico to sao vicente. they had a daughter francisca maria that > married > > alvaro gomes de cabral. their son francisco gois de carvalho married > maria > > francisca. Their son Alvaro gomes married maria dias. their children > used > > other surnames rather than franca, vasconcelos or gois > > > > the question is...where can i find the link between maria de franca and > the > > vasconcelos de franca? i know that as i showed above i come from them, > but > > thru another link. > > > > any ideas??? > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 20:10:32 Romance Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > mmmm. When I first saw Antònio's son name I thought it might came from > > him. But on second thoughts, no. A Vasconcelos would use Vasconcelos, > not > > the Mendes. There were loads of Mendes, and it's a patronymic. Not that > > many > > Vasconcelos - one of the "biggest" name you could have in Madeira at > that > > time. > > > > So the Vasconcelos almost for sure comes from the mother (as well as > the > > França - and that happened a lot, a son adopting both his mother's > names, > > if > > they were better than his father's). > > > > In that case the França de Vasconcelos - in your case as well as in > Lou's > > - comes very probably from André de França m. D. Leonor de > Vasconcelos. > > He > > son, of João de França and Inês Pires (Escócia) and he g.son of the > first > > Great and Illustrious Vasconcelos (one of the four Fidalgos sent by the > > King > > in answer to João Gonçalves Zarco's request) , Martim Mendes de > > Vasconcelos > > m. Helena Gonçalves da Cãmara. > > > > regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 5:37 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > do u think that the husband of dona maria de franca could also be a > > > vasconcelos? his name was antonio mendes? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 18:32:37 Romance Standard Time, > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > Ah, that (their son's name) changes the perspective. Either Amaro > > Mendes > > > was > > > a Mendes de Vasconcelos, or more probably she was a França de > > Vasconcelos. > > > In which case her ascendancy is known. I'll try perhaps tomorrow or > > so, > > > to > > > work that out. But I'm now rather inclined to see Maria de França as > a > > > França e Vasconcelos, because of her son's name. > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 5:21 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Miguel, > > > > > > > > i dont have the docs. Just saw once on the microfilms the > certificate > > of > > > > her son's wedding jose franca de vasconcelos with my direct > ancestor > > > maria > > > > telo de meneses in 1728 in sao vicente :( > > > > > > > > leandro > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 18:16:47 Romance Standard Time, > > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > > > > > as she is a "Dona" chances are she is really from the Franças. > The > > > Franças > > > > were on their rise. They became one of the most powerful families > in > > > > Madeira. Lords of I don't know how many morgadios. I am also > > descended > > > for > > > > them, unfortunately not from the more fortunate trunks who > > inherited > > > the > > > > lands. The system of morgadio had no pity for second, third, and > > fourth > > > > sons. > > > > > > > > Who are the witness or "padrinhos" in that document? > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 3:51 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Miguel.... > > > > > > > > > > im looking for the francas in S vicente as well. i have > antonio > > > mendes > > > > > married with dona maria de franca in mid 1600s (dont have the > > > precise > > > > date) > > > > > but have no parents of the groom neither the bride. Can you help > > me > > > with > > > > > that > > > > > please? > > > > > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > > > > > Leandro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 16:40:05 Romance Standard Time, > > > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > > > > > Hello Lou, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The nª 4 Vicente de França de Andrada has a similar name to > some > > > > Brasões > > > > > Teixeiras and Brasões Gouveias from S. Vicente. Have you > > explored > > > his > > > > > line? > > > > > Somehow he must be of the Franças and of the Andrades. > > > > > > > > > > In 4. Is it Sebastina de A. de dau. of the nº 3 ? > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:14 AM, Lou Abreu III > > <[email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira (ca. 1590, > > > marriage > > > > not > > > > > > recorded in Ribeira Brava) > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Francisco Rodrigues Duarte + Ines Martins(1) (Ribeira > > > Brava, > > > > 16 > > > > > > Sept > > > > > > 1614 – B#389, fl 153) > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Manuel Duarte(2) + Catarina de Abreu (widow) > (Ribeira > > > Brava, > > > > 27 > > > > > Aug > > > > > > 1640 – B#390, fl 41) > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. Vicente de Franca de Andrade + Sebastiana de Abreu(3) > > (Sao > > > > > Vicente, > > > > > > 5 Feb 1670 – B#579, fl 53) > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Vicente de Franca(4) + Maria de Sa (Sao Vicente, 3 > > Sept > > > 1696 > > > > – > > > > > > B#556, fl 63) > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. Basilio Pestana + Josefa de Franca(5) (Serra de Agua, > 13 > > June > > > > 1735 > > > > > > – > > > > > > B#409, fl 24) > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. Francisco de Andrade(6) + Maria dos Reis (Serra de > > Agua, > > > 20 > > > > Feb > > > > > > 1770 > > > > > > – B#409, fl 79) > > > > > > > > > > > > 8. Manuel de Andrade Silva(7) + Ana Maria (Serra de > Agua, > > 30 > > > Jan > > > > > 1815 > > > > > > – > > > > > > B#411, fl 8) > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. Manuel Pestana de Gouveia + Delfina Maria(8) (Serra de > > Agua, > > > 9 > > > > > July > > > > > > 1849 – B#411, fl 110) > > > > > > > > > > > > 10. Joao de Abreu Amarelo(widower) + Delfina da > > Conceicao(9) > > > > Serra > > > > > de > > > > > > Agua, 13 April 1891 – R#6) > > > > > > > > > > > > 11. Antonio Neves de Abreu Amarelo(10) + Carolina de > Sousa > > da > > > > Camara > > > > > > (Ponta do Sol, 3 Feb 1916 –R#2) > > > > > > > > > > > > 12. Louis Neves Abreu(11) + Maria Pita (Lowell, > Massachusetts > > > > USA, 9 > > > > > > April 1939) > > > > > > > > > > > > 13. Louis Neves Abreu Jr(12) + Pauline Alice Genest > > (Lowell, > > > > > > Massachusetts USA, 7 Sept 1959) > > > > > > > > > > > > 14. Louis Neves Abreu III(13) + Deborah Elaine Bourgeois > > > (Lowell, > > > > > > Massachusetts, USA 20 Oct 1979) > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:30 PM > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > > > > > yes..it helps a lot. do u have the ancestors of ines? im > also > > > > descendant > > > > > of > > > > > > the homem family in ribeira brava > > > > > > > > > > > > thank you > > > > > > > > > > > > leandro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 1:25:11 A.M. W. Europe > Standard > > Time, > > > > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > > > Okay I see the confusion, let me explain > > > > > > > > > > > > Ines Martin's Parents are Francisco Goncalves Homem and > Isabel > > > > Pereira > > > > > > (marriage not recorded in Ribeira Brava) > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope that clears up the confusion. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 6:32 PM > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > > > > > hi lou, my doubt is on the children of pedro afonso and > leonor > > > > homem. > > > > > > > > > > > > im descended from their dau ines afonso married with fernao > > anes. > > > > But > > > > > pat > > > > > > said that you have their dau as ines martins married with > > > francisco > > > > > > rodrigues duarte. im really confused about that :) > > > > > > > > > > > > leandro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 12:06:49 A.M. W. Europe > Standard > > > Time, > > > > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > > > I am not sure which line we are talking about here, sorry > I > > am a > > > > > little > > > > > > spun around on this one, what do you need clarified. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:58 PM > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and > Lou) > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Pat > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou...can u pls clarify this line for us please? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > > > > > > > Leandro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 10:54:59 P.M. W. Europe > > Standard > > > > Time, > > > > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure if this is the same "person." > > > > > > > > > > > > The only Pedro Afonso (Cavaleiro) I have is married to > > Leonor > > > > Homem, > > > > > > with > > > > > > the children that I mentioned in my posting attention > Miguel > > > and > > > > Lou. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't have Pedro's parents, but Leonor's parents are > Joao > > > Homem > > > > (de > > > > > > Monte Gordo) and Catarina Vaz. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully Miguel and/or Paulo will be able to add to > this > > > thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ines Martins is Lou's ancestor... > > > > > > > > > > > > I must admit I'm more confused now than when I first > started > > my > > > > > > genealogy > > > > > > quest many, many "moons," ago. I'm finding that what > was > > is > > > not > > > > > > now...Frustrating to say the least. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm trying to sort out Jorge Pinto and Leonor de > Atouguia > > da > > > > Costa's > > > > > > line...my info differs from what's in Norhonha- titulo: > > > Pintos... > > > > > > Nothing > > > > > > consent but the state of change...;-))). > > > > > > > > > > > > Pat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:08:24 PM GMT -08:00 > > > US/Canada > > > > > Pacific > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and > Lou) > > > > > > > > > > > > Pat, > > > > > > > > > > > > I have Pedro afonso and leonor de sousa having a > daughter > > > called > > > > INES > > > > > > AFONSO and not ines martins. also she is married to > fernao > > anes > > > > and > > > > > not > > > > > > to francisco duarte. Are we talking about the same > person > > on > > > > here? or > > > > > > am i mistaken? > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, Lou, can you send me on my private email > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > descendency list of manuel duarte and guiomar camacho > > please? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > > > > > > > Leandro > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27 pm > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and > > Lou) > > > > > > > > > > > > Pat, > > > > > > You are correct with the marriage record, however, his > > > baptismal > > > > > > record (11 Dec 1586 b#376,fl 202) as recorded by Dr. > Mello, > > > list > > > > his > > > > > > full name as Francisco Rodrigues Duarte. His line from > > there > > > is > > > > as > > > > > > follows > > > > > > > > > > > > Parents Manuel Duarte + Guiomar Camacha Ribeira Brava > Nov > > 26 > > > 1584 > > > > > > > > > > > > Manuel's Parents Francisco Duarte + Maria Fernandes Ribeira > > Brava > > > > May > > > > > > 22 1560 > > > > > > > > > > > > Guiomar's Parents Francisco Rodrigues Camacho + > Catarina > > > Pestana > > > > > > > > > > > > Does this answer your questions? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > Pat > > > > Corbera > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:40 PM > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and > Lou) > > > > > > > > > > > > Miguel, > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't Pedro Afonso who is married to Leonor Homem one of > > your > > > > direct > > > > > > line ancestors? > > > > > > > > > > > > Their son Francisco Homem D'El-Rei is my direct line > > > ancestors, > > > > and > > > > > if > > > > > > my notes/memory serves me correctly Francisco's > brother > > Fernao > > > > Ennes > > > > > is > > > > > > your ancestor... > > > > > > > > > > > > If the above is correct will you please share the > descending > > > order > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > > > Fernao Ennes to you... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pat > > > > > > > > > > > > p.s. Lou do you have this marriage record that you > > referenced > > > > below? > > > > > > On the Madeira Archives listing for this marriage, the > > couples' > > > > names > > > > > > are Ines Martins and Francisco Rodrigues...where did you > > get > > > the > > > > > Duarte > > > > > > name from? > > > > > > > > > > > > >Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a > > parish, > > > he > > > > is > > > > > > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to > > Francisco > > > > > > Rodrigues Duarte on >16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book > > > #389,Fl > > > > 153) > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" > > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:43:30 AM GMT -08:00 > > > US/Canada > > > > > Pacific > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou, > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and > will > > > forever > > > > be. > > > > > > For us > > > > > > living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say > > totally > > > > > expected > > > > > > names > > > > > > from that time, place and circunstances. And most of > them, > > if > > > not > > > > all > > > > > > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by > > many > > > > people. > > > > > > > > > > > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He > > must be > > > > from > > > > > the > > > > > > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. > I > > also > > > > have > > > > > > Homens > > > > > > from RB and they certainly are all from the same > family. As > > we > > > > know > > > > > > there > > > > > > are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem > de > > > Sousa, > > > > > Homem > > > > > > de > > > > > > Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so > simple > > at > > > all, > > > > > > because a > > > > > > simple Homem may have the name of one of the other > three > > > types). > > > > > > > > > > > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a > > toponymic > > > > taken > > > > > > from > > > > > > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens > (plural) > > > are a > > > > > very > > > > > > ancient Portuguese family. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, I hope I was of some help, > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness > of > > his > > > > marriage > > > > > > to > > > > > > Maria Lopes? > > > > > > > > > > > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria > has > > a > > > > Lopo > > > > > as > > > > > > ascendant. > > > > > > > > > > > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III < > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still > in > > > learn > > > > > mode > > > > > > and > > > > > > > have not seen these names on the list that often if > at > > all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a > > parish, > > > he > > > > is > > > > > > > mentioned > > > > > > > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco > > Rodrigues > > > > Duarte > > > > > > on 16 > > > > > > > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their > > > daughter > > > > > Maria > > > > > > Lopes > > > > > > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol > > (book > > > > #454, > > > > > fl > > > > > > 81) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > Miguel > > > > de > > > > > > Castro > > > > > > > Henriques > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Lu, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal > ones > > - I > > > mean > > > > > > typical > > > > > > > names from these times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > > > > > > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a > > Drummond. > > > > Any > > > > > > Drummond > > > > > > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or > his > > son > > > or > > > > > > daughter ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III > > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All, > > > > > > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so > I > > am > > > > sending > > > > > > them > > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any > > help > > > or > > > > hints > > > > > are > > > > > > > > appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, > > dwelling: > > > > Lugar > > > > > de > > > > > > Baixo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? > Prior > > to > > > > 1568 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not > recorded > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? > Prior > > to > > > > 1568 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 > > 1573 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 > 1580 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything > is > > > > > welcomed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > to > > > > > > > > [email protected] with the word > > > 'unsubscribe' > > > > > > without the > > > > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > to > > > > > > > [email protected] with the word > > > 'unsubscribe' > > > > > without > > > > > > the > > > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > to > > > > > > > [email protected] with the word > > 'unsubscribe' > > > > > without > > > > > > the > > > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > > [email protected] with the word > > 'unsubscribe' > > > > without > > > > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > > [email protected] with the word > > 'unsubscribe' > > > > without > > > > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > > without > > > > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > > [email protected] with the word > > 'unsubscribe' > > > > without > > > > > > the > > > > > > quotes in the subject > > > > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > > [email protected] with the word > > 'unsubscribe' > > > > > without > > > > > > the > > > > > > quotes in the subject > > > > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > > without > > > > > the > > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > > without > > > > > the > > > > > > quotes in the subject > > > > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > > without > > > > > the > > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > > without > > > > > the > > > > > > quotes in the subject > > > > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > > the > > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > > without > > > > > the > > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject > > > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject > > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject > > and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I will take this opportunity to answer why I have Leonor as Leonor de Abreu - not sure about Leandro! It has to do with discussion here involving our beloved but often MIA, Paulo...these are my notes on Leonor: "Paulo says this name is wrong...calls her Leonor de Abreu instead: Jorge Pinto, 1º Morgado da Ilha, dead 1559. Married Leonor de Abreu. There is no creature by the name of "D. Leonor da Costa e Atouguia" or whatever, it's an invention. Leonor de Abreu is said to have been the daughter of a documented Rui Colaço de Abreu & Filipa Rodrigues. Designated heir and administrator was his son: Paulo continues: Forget everything you've read about that "Leonor da Costa e Atouguia", which is an invented creature. After decyphering the death record of Jorge Pinto the younger I could read that he was married to Leonor DE ABREU, who he designated as heir and will executor. After her death all the "fazenda" would pass to their son, Pedro da Costa. There is not a shred of doubt that the Costa surname was already in the family, since Jorge Pinto the younger had a documented paternal uncle named Lopo da Costa, so this late "Leonor da Costa" was really unecessary to explain it. Leonor de Abreu is said somewhere to be from the Abreus Colaços, which is quite plausible. Catarina Álvares was daughter of Luís Álvares, Esquire, which is a COSTA even if he never used that surname himself. His family acquired the position of "Contador dos Contos da Ilha da Madeira" when his son Francisco Álvares married Branca de Atouguia, who brought the position in her "dote". As such - I have detached Leonor de Atougia da Costa from her parents as originally provided by geneall and changed her name and parentage as Paulo suggests above." Basically - it all sounded good to me and I did not have anything to prove either name as "right" or "wrong"...but I know Paulo does his homework so figured as long as I added my notes it could always be changed back later ;-) Cece -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 7:39 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] website Leadro, I hope that I'm not re-visiting a subject that you and others may have already answered, but I have been known to be a "testa dura (sic?)." In viewing your TribalPages website, I have a couple questions: 1. You have a Leonor Abreu married to Jorge Pinto, with Leonor's parents being Rodrigo Alvares Da Costa and Ines Delgado. I have the a Leonore de Atouguia da Costa married to a Jorge Pinto, with my Leonor having the same parents as you... Are you saying that your Leonor Abreu is the same person as Leonor de Atouguia da Costa? If so, what's your source for her referencing her surname as Abreu? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 2. Isabel Fernandes (a Velha d'a Serra) you have her parents being Fernao Nunes Cardoso and a Lucrecia Lopes... I have her as being the daughter of Fernao Nunes Cardoso and a Catharina de Gouveia...with the following source notes: "Nobiliario da Madeira by Henrique Henriques de Noronha. Titulo: Delgados. Pedro Delgado, a quem chamárão de alcunha o Nabo, era natural de Portugal, d’a Arruda; passou com sua mulher a viver a esta Ilha pouco depois de seu descobrimento. Foi casado com Izabel Fernandes, a quem chamárão a Vêlha d’a Serra, filha de Fernão Nunes Cardoso, e de Catharina de Gouvêa." Was Lucrecia Lopes another wife of Fernao Nunes Cardoso, if so what's your source? Pat p.s. Hopefully Miguel will add his comments as to who the parents of Isabel Fernandes (a Velha d'a Serra)may have been. Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2009 8:40:51 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] website hey Miguel, you are MORE THAN WELCOME to make suggestions and add new info. Actually, not only you but all our cousins from the forum, which im so proud to be related to. These cyber space is quite nice actually, it feels like a big family. Thank you for your compliments and im looking forward to hear from you all. Leandro In a message dated 06/12/2009 17:30:40 Romance Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Leandro, Great job! Looks like an anthology of almost all Madeiran families - it shows our many connections. For the moment I'm just seeing. You won't mind if I point some corrections, namely in parts that are atributed to me? Some I have new data, others I have abandoned due to new facts and documents. Anyway a genealogical work is always a work in progress, subject to significant changes sometimes, to minor alterations. Where to start? Well I picked , for a start, Afonso da Mata, who was Escudeiro, and Isabel de Freitas. They are well known amidst the founding fathers of all Gaula families. Quite recently I discovered that Isabel de Freitas comes from the Freitas of Terras de Bouro (North of Portugal). It seems a promising line. Yet certainly very difficult to track since it's medieval. I'll try to ask in another forum to some MEDIEVAL specialists who were these Freitas. Clode says that Isabel de Freitas, bescause she was from S. Cruz "probably" belonged to the well known Freitas of Santa Cruz. It's a possibility. But I don't know the origin of these, apart what is common knowledge . they descend from Gonçalo de Freitas. FCR, Monteiro. Mor do Infante D. Fernando. (I was never able to confirm this title) Well, Once again congratulations and regards, Miguel On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 12:18 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > OK - now tell me how you did it?? :-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:14 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] website > > hey guys, > > especially Cece, Ed, Jeff, Lou, Zack, Jose, Pat and Zelia, > > I just updated my website: _http://teles.tribalpages.com_ > (http://teles.tribalpages.com) > > and put your ancestors of each of you with a coloured box, so in that > way would be easier to follow p how close we are related. > > let me know what you guys think > > thank u > > leandro > > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 3:44:52 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Lou, > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever be. For > us living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally expected > names from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if > not all (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many > people. > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from > the Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also have > Homens from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know > there are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de > Sousa, Homem de Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so > simple at all, > because a simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken from > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a > very ancient Portuguese family. > > > Well, I hope I was of some help, > > Best regards, > > Miguel > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his > marriage to Maria Lopes? > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo > as ascendant. > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. > > > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Miguel > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn mode > > and have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he > is > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco > > Rodrigues Duarte on 16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter > > Maria > Lopes > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book #454, > > fl > > 81) > > > > Regards, > > Lou > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > Castro Henriques > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > Hello Lu, > > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean > > typical names from these times. > > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any > Drummond > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or > > daughter > ? > > > > Regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > All, > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am > > > sending them > > out > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or hints > > > are appreciated. > > > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar > > > de > Baixo > > > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is welcomed. > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found > in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.94/2545 - Release Date: 12/05/09 > 08:13:00 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.94/2545 - Release Date: 12/06/09 19:37:00

You have to look for baptism certificates. And work the ascendancies. The line of FVs you've just posted is also mine and Cece's too, I believe. Since all the others are relatively well known - Leonor Caldeira, for instance, is the daughter of Josè Caldeira and Maria Lourenço, who founded the Capela do Rosário, and left a "Vínculo") I am interested in Álvaro Gomes Cabral. I don't know from where does his Cabral name comes from. But probably from the old Cabrais. And the Cabrais are an interesting lineage - remember Pedro Álvares Cabral? On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 7:24 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > hi miguel, > > funny enough i am linked with andre de franca and his wife leonor thru his > dau francisca franca de vasconcelos married with francisco gois de > carvalho. Their dau branca franca de vasconcelos married antonio vieira de > vasconcelos. they had a son francisco gois de carvalho married leonor > caldeira in s > vicente. aparently this is my first ancestor from this family coming from > machico to sao vicente. they had a daughter francisca maria that married > alvaro gomes de cabral. their son francisco gois de carvalho married maria > francisca. Their son Alvaro gomes married maria dias. their children used > other surnames rather than franca, vasconcelos or gois > > the question is...where can i find the link between maria de franca and the > vasconcelos de franca? i know that as i showed above i come from them, but > thru another link. > > any ideas??? > > > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 20:10:32 Romance Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > mmmm. When I first saw Antònio's son name I thought it might came from > him. But on second thoughts, no. A Vasconcelos would use Vasconcelos, not > the Mendes. There were loads of Mendes, and it's a patronymic. Not that > many > Vasconcelos - one of the "biggest" name you could have in Madeira at that > time. > > So the Vasconcelos almost for sure comes from the mother (as well as the > França - and that happened a lot, a son adopting both his mother's names, > if > they were better than his father's). > > In that case the França de Vasconcelos - in your case as well as in Lou's > - comes very probably from André de França m. D. Leonor de Vasconcelos. > He > son, of João de França and Inês Pires (Escócia) and he g.son of the first > Great and Illustrious Vasconcelos (one of the four Fidalgos sent by the > King > in answer to João Gonçalves Zarco's request) , Martim Mendes de > Vasconcelos > m. Helena Gonçalves da Cãmara. > > regards, > > Miguel > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 5:37 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > do u think that the husband of dona maria de franca could also be a > > vasconcelos? his name was antonio mendes? > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 18:32:37 Romance Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > Ah, that (their son's name) changes the perspective. Either Amaro > Mendes > > was > > a Mendes de Vasconcelos, or more probably she was a França de > Vasconcelos. > > In which case her ascendancy is known. I'll try perhaps tomorrow or > so, > > to > > work that out. But I'm now rather inclined to see Maria de França as a > > França e Vasconcelos, because of her son's name. > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 5:21 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Miguel, > > > > > > i dont have the docs. Just saw once on the microfilms the certificate > of > > > her son's wedding jose franca de vasconcelos with my direct ancestor > > maria > > > telo de meneses in 1728 in sao vicente :( > > > > > > leandro > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 18:16:47 Romance Standard Time, > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > > > as she is a "Dona" chances are she is really from the Franças. The > > Franças > > > were on their rise. They became one of the most powerful families in > > > Madeira. Lords of I don't know how many morgadios. I am also > descended > > for > > > them, unfortunately not from the more fortunate trunks who > inherited > > the > > > lands. The system of morgadio had no pity for second, third, and > fourth > > > sons. > > > > > > Who are the witness or "padrinhos" in that document? > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 3:51 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Miguel.... > > > > > > > > im looking for the francas in S vicente as well. i have antonio > > mendes > > > > married with dona maria de franca in mid 1600s (dont have the > > precise > > > date) > > > > but have no parents of the groom neither the bride. Can you help > me > > with > > > > that > > > > please? > > > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > > > Leandro > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 16:40:05 Romance Standard Time, > > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > > > Hello Lou, > > > > > > > > > > > > The nª 4 Vicente de França de Andrada has a similar name to some > > > Brasões > > > > Teixeiras and Brasões Gouveias from S. Vicente. Have you > explored > > his > > > > line? > > > > Somehow he must be of the Franças and of the Andrades. > > > > > > > > In 4. Is it Sebastina de A. de dau. of the nº 3 ? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:14 AM, Lou Abreu III > <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > 1. Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira (ca. 1590, > > marriage > > > not > > > > > recorded in Ribeira Brava) > > > > > > > > > > 2. Francisco Rodrigues Duarte + Ines Martins(1) (Ribeira > > Brava, > > > 16 > > > > > Sept > > > > > 1614 – B#389, fl 153) > > > > > > > > > > 3. Manuel Duarte(2) + Catarina de Abreu (widow) (Ribeira > > Brava, > > > 27 > > > > Aug > > > > > 1640 – B#390, fl 41) > > > > > > > > > > 4. Vicente de Franca de Andrade + Sebastiana de Abreu(3) > (Sao > > > > Vicente, > > > > > 5 Feb 1670 – B#579, fl 53) > > > > > > > > > > 5. Vicente de Franca(4) + Maria de Sa (Sao Vicente, 3 > Sept > > 1696 > > > – > > > > > B#556, fl 63) > > > > > > > > > > 6. Basilio Pestana + Josefa de Franca(5) (Serra de Agua, 13 > June > > > 1735 > > > > > – > > > > > B#409, fl 24) > > > > > > > > > > 7. Francisco de Andrade(6) + Maria dos Reis (Serra de > Agua, > > 20 > > > Feb > > > > > 1770 > > > > > – B#409, fl 79) > > > > > > > > > > 8. Manuel de Andrade Silva(7) + Ana Maria (Serra de Agua, > 30 > > Jan > > > > 1815 > > > > > – > > > > > B#411, fl 8) > > > > > > > > > > 9. Manuel Pestana de Gouveia + Delfina Maria(8) (Serra de > Agua, > > 9 > > > > July > > > > > 1849 – B#411, fl 110) > > > > > > > > > > 10. Joao de Abreu Amarelo(widower) + Delfina da > Conceicao(9) > > > Serra > > > > de > > > > > Agua, 13 April 1891 – R#6) > > > > > > > > > > 11. Antonio Neves de Abreu Amarelo(10) + Carolina de Sousa > da > > > Camara > > > > > (Ponta do Sol, 3 Feb 1916 –R#2) > > > > > > > > > > 12. Louis Neves Abreu(11) + Maria Pita (Lowell, Massachusetts > > > USA, 9 > > > > > April 1939) > > > > > > > > > > 13. Louis Neves Abreu Jr(12) + Pauline Alice Genest > (Lowell, > > > > > Massachusetts USA, 7 Sept 1959) > > > > > > > > > > 14. Louis Neves Abreu III(13) + Deborah Elaine Bourgeois > > (Lowell, > > > > > Massachusetts, USA 20 Oct 1979) > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > > [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:30 PM > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > > > yes..it helps a lot. do u have the ancestors of ines? im also > > > descendant > > > > of > > > > > the homem family in ribeira brava > > > > > > > > > > thank you > > > > > > > > > > leandro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 1:25:11 A.M. W. Europe Standard > Time, > > > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > > Okay I see the confusion, let me explain > > > > > > > > > > Ines Martin's Parents are Francisco Goncalves Homem and Isabel > > > Pereira > > > > > (marriage not recorded in Ribeira Brava) > > > > > > > > > > I hope that clears up the confusion. > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > > [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 6:32 PM > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > > > hi lou, my doubt is on the children of pedro afonso and leonor > > > homem. > > > > > > > > > > im descended from their dau ines afonso married with fernao > anes. > > > But > > > > pat > > > > > said that you have their dau as ines martins married with > > francisco > > > > > rodrigues duarte. im really confused about that :) > > > > > > > > > > leandro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 12:06:49 A.M. W. Europe Standard > > Time, > > > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > > I am not sure which line we are talking about here, sorry I > am a > > > > little > > > > > spun around on this one, what do you need clarified. > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:58 PM > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Pat > > > > > > > > > > Lou...can u pls clarify this line for us please? > > > > > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > > > > > Leandro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 10:54:59 P.M. W. Europe > Standard > > > Time, > > > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > > > > > > > Not sure if this is the same "person." > > > > > > > > > > The only Pedro Afonso (Cavaleiro) I have is married to > Leonor > > > Homem, > > > > > with > > > > > the children that I mentioned in my posting attention Miguel > > and > > > Lou. > > > > > > > > > > I don't have Pedro's parents, but Leonor's parents are Joao > > Homem > > > (de > > > > > Monte Gordo) and Catarina Vaz. > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully Miguel and/or Paulo will be able to add to this > > thread. > > > > > > > > > > Ines Martins is Lou's ancestor... > > > > > > > > > > I must admit I'm more confused now than when I first started > my > > > > > genealogy > > > > > quest many, many "moons," ago. I'm finding that what was > is > > not > > > > > now...Frustrating to say the least. > > > > > > > > > > I'm trying to sort out Jorge Pinto and Leonor de Atouguia > da > > > Costa's > > > > > line...my info differs from what's in Norhonha- titulo: > > Pintos... > > > > > Nothing > > > > > consent but the state of change...;-))). > > > > > > > > > > Pat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:08:24 PM GMT -08:00 > > US/Canada > > > > Pacific > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > > > > > Pat, > > > > > > > > > > I have Pedro afonso and leonor de sousa having a daughter > > called > > > INES > > > > > AFONSO and not ines martins. also she is married to fernao > anes > > > and > > > > not > > > > > to francisco duarte. Are we talking about the same person > on > > > here? or > > > > > am i mistaken? > > > > > > > > > > Also, Lou, can you send me on my private email > > > [email protected] > > > > > descendency list of manuel duarte and guiomar camacho > please? > > > > > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > > > > > Leandro > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27 pm > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and > Lou) > > > > > > > > > > Pat, > > > > > You are correct with the marriage record, however, his > > baptismal > > > > > record (11 Dec 1586 b#376,fl 202) as recorded by Dr. Mello, > > list > > > his > > > > > full name as Francisco Rodrigues Duarte. His line from > there > > is > > > as > > > > > follows > > > > > > > > > > Parents Manuel Duarte + Guiomar Camacha Ribeira Brava Nov > 26 > > 1584 > > > > > > > > > > Manuel's Parents Francisco Duarte + Maria Fernandes Ribeira > Brava > > > May > > > > > 22 1560 > > > > > > > > > > Guiomar's Parents Francisco Rodrigues Camacho + Catarina > > Pestana > > > > > > > > > > Does this answer your questions? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat > > > Corbera > > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:40 PM > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > > > > > Miguel, > > > > > > > > > > Isn't Pedro Afonso who is married to Leonor Homem one of > your > > > direct > > > > > line ancestors? > > > > > > > > > > Their son Francisco Homem D'El-Rei is my direct line > > ancestors, > > > and > > > > if > > > > > my notes/memory serves me correctly Francisco's brother > Fernao > > > Ennes > > > > is > > > > > your ancestor... > > > > > > > > > > If the above is correct will you please share the descending > > order > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > Fernao Ennes to you... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pat > > > > > > > > > > p.s. Lou do you have this marriage record that you > referenced > > > below? > > > > > On the Madeira Archives listing for this marriage, the > couples' > > > names > > > > > are Ines Martins and Francisco Rodrigues...where did you > get > > the > > > > Duarte > > > > > name from? > > > > > > > > > > >Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a > parish, > > he > > > is > > > > > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to > Francisco > > > > > Rodrigues Duarte on >16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book > > #389,Fl > > > 153) > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:43:30 AM GMT -08:00 > > US/Canada > > > > Pacific > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > > > Lou, > > > > > > > > > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will > > forever > > > be. > > > > > For us > > > > > living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say > totally > > > > expected > > > > > names > > > > > from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, > if > > not > > > all > > > > > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by > many > > > people. > > > > > > > > > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He > must be > > > from > > > > the > > > > > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I > also > > > have > > > > > Homens > > > > > from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As > we > > > know > > > > > there > > > > > are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de > > Sousa, > > > > Homem > > > > > de > > > > > Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple > at > > all, > > > > > because a > > > > > simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three > > types). > > > > > > > > > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a > toponymic > > > taken > > > > > from > > > > > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) > > are a > > > > very > > > > > ancient Portuguese family. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, I hope I was of some help, > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of > his > > > marriage > > > > > to > > > > > Maria Lopes? > > > > > > > > > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has > a > > > Lopo > > > > as > > > > > ascendant. > > > > > > > > > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III < > > > [email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in > > learn > > > > mode > > > > > and > > > > > > have not seen these names on the list that often if at > all. > > > > > > > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a > parish, > > he > > > is > > > > > > mentioned > > > > > > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco > Rodrigues > > > Duarte > > > > > on 16 > > > > > > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > > > > > > > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their > > daughter > > > > Maria > > > > > Lopes > > > > > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol > (book > > > #454, > > > > fl > > > > > 81) > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > Miguel > > > de > > > > > Castro > > > > > > Henriques > > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Lu, > > > > > > > > > > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones > - I > > mean > > > > > typical > > > > > > names from these times. > > > > > > > > > > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > > > > > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a > Drummond. > > > Any > > > > > Drummond > > > > > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his > son > > or > > > > > daughter ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All, > > > > > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I > am > > > sending > > > > > them > > > > > > out > > > > > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any > help > > or > > > hints > > > > are > > > > > > > appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, > dwelling: > > > Lugar > > > > de > > > > > Baixo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior > to > > > 1568 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior > to > > > 1568 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 > 1573 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is > > > > welcomed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > > > [email protected] with the word > > 'unsubscribe' > > > > > without the > > > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > > [email protected] with the word > > 'unsubscribe' > > > > without > > > > > the > > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > > without > > > > > the > > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject > > > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > > without > > > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject > > > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject > > > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject > > > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject > > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject > > and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I have been getting a lot of unsubscribe notices lately. I know the system kicked someone out without that person knowing so if you are unsubscribed just go ahead and re-subscribe. Just want you to know that if you do get unsubscribed it is not me doing it :) if I ever feel like I need to kick anyone out I'll send you a personal note first. I don't see that happening on this list though, you guys are all awesome. Keep up the fun :)   Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator

mmmm. When I first saw Antònio's son name I thought it might came from him. But on second thoughts, no. A Vasconcelos would use Vasconcelos, not the Mendes. There were loads of Mendes, and it's a patronymic. Not that many Vasconcelos - one of the "biggest" name you could have in Madeira at that time. So the Vasconcelos almost for sure comes from the mother (as well as the França - and that happened a lot, a son adopting both his mother's names, if they were better than his father's). In that case the França de Vasconcelos - in your case as well as in Lou's - comes very probably from André de França m. D. Leonor de Vasconcelos. He son, of João de França and Inês Pires (Escócia) and he g.son of the first Great and Illustrious Vasconcelos (one of the four Fidalgos sent by the King in answer to João Gonçalves Zarco's request) , Martim Mendes de Vasconcelos m. Helena Gonçalves da Cãmara. regards, Miguel On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 5:37 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > do u think that the husband of dona maria de franca could also be a > vasconcelos? his name was antonio mendes? > > > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 18:32:37 Romance Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Ah, that (their son's name) changes the perspective. Either Amaro Mendes > was > a Mendes de Vasconcelos, or more probably she was a França de Vasconcelos. > In which case her ascendancy is known. I'll try perhaps tomorrow or so, > to > work that out. But I'm now rather inclined to see Maria de França as a > França e Vasconcelos, because of her son's name. > > > Miguel > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 5:21 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel, > > > > i dont have the docs. Just saw once on the microfilms the certificate of > > her son's wedding jose franca de vasconcelos with my direct ancestor > maria > > telo de meneses in 1728 in sao vicente :( > > > > leandro > > > > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 18:16:47 Romance Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > Leandro, > > > > as she is a "Dona" chances are she is really from the Franças. The > Franças > > were on their rise. They became one of the most powerful families in > > Madeira. Lords of I don't know how many morgadios. I am also descended > for > > them, unfortunately not from the more fortunate trunks who inherited > the > > lands. The system of morgadio had no pity for second, third, and fourth > > sons. > > > > Who are the witness or "padrinhos" in that document? > > > > Miguel > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 3:51 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Miguel.... > > > > > > im looking for the francas in S vicente as well. i have antonio > mendes > > > married with dona maria de franca in mid 1600s (dont have the > precise > > date) > > > but have no parents of the groom neither the bride. Can you help me > with > > > that > > > please? > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > Leandro > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 16:40:05 Romance Standard Time, > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > Hello Lou, > > > > > > > > > The nª 4 Vicente de França de Andrada has a similar name to some > > Brasões > > > Teixeiras and Brasões Gouveias from S. Vicente. Have you explored > his > > > line? > > > Somehow he must be of the Franças and of the Andrades. > > > > > > In 4. Is it Sebastina de A. de dau. of the nº 3 ? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:14 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > 1. Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira (ca. 1590, > marriage > > not > > > > recorded in Ribeira Brava) > > > > > > > > 2. Francisco Rodrigues Duarte + Ines Martins(1) (Ribeira > Brava, > > 16 > > > > Sept > > > > 1614 – B#389, fl 153) > > > > > > > > 3. Manuel Duarte(2) + Catarina de Abreu (widow) (Ribeira > Brava, > > 27 > > > Aug > > > > 1640 – B#390, fl 41) > > > > > > > > 4. Vicente de Franca de Andrade + Sebastiana de Abreu(3) (Sao > > > Vicente, > > > > 5 Feb 1670 – B#579, fl 53) > > > > > > > > 5. Vicente de Franca(4) + Maria de Sa (Sao Vicente, 3 Sept > 1696 > > – > > > > B#556, fl 63) > > > > > > > > 6. Basilio Pestana + Josefa de Franca(5) (Serra de Agua, 13 June > > 1735 > > > > – > > > > B#409, fl 24) > > > > > > > > 7. Francisco de Andrade(6) + Maria dos Reis (Serra de Agua, > 20 > > Feb > > > > 1770 > > > > – B#409, fl 79) > > > > > > > > 8. Manuel de Andrade Silva(7) + Ana Maria (Serra de Agua, 30 > Jan > > > 1815 > > > > – > > > > B#411, fl 8) > > > > > > > > 9. Manuel Pestana de Gouveia + Delfina Maria(8) (Serra de Agua, > 9 > > > July > > > > 1849 – B#411, fl 110) > > > > > > > > 10. Joao de Abreu Amarelo(widower) + Delfina da Conceicao(9) > > Serra > > > de > > > > Agua, 13 April 1891 – R#6) > > > > > > > > 11. Antonio Neves de Abreu Amarelo(10) + Carolina de Sousa da > > Camara > > > > (Ponta do Sol, 3 Feb 1916 –R#2) > > > > > > > > 12. Louis Neves Abreu(11) + Maria Pita (Lowell, Massachusetts > > USA, 9 > > > > April 1939) > > > > > > > > 13. Louis Neves Abreu Jr(12) + Pauline Alice Genest (Lowell, > > > > Massachusetts USA, 7 Sept 1959) > > > > > > > > 14. Louis Neves Abreu III(13) + Deborah Elaine Bourgeois > (Lowell, > > > > Massachusetts, USA 20 Oct 1979) > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > [email protected] > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:30 PM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > yes..it helps a lot. do u have the ancestors of ines? im also > > descendant > > > of > > > > the homem family in ribeira brava > > > > > > > > thank you > > > > > > > > leandro > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 1:25:11 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > Okay I see the confusion, let me explain > > > > > > > > Ines Martin's Parents are Francisco Goncalves Homem and Isabel > > Pereira > > > > (marriage not recorded in Ribeira Brava) > > > > > > > > I hope that clears up the confusion. > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > [email protected] > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 6:32 PM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > hi lou, my doubt is on the children of pedro afonso and leonor > > homem. > > > > > > > > im descended from their dau ines afonso married with fernao anes. > > But > > > pat > > > > said that you have their dau as ines martins married with > francisco > > > > rodrigues duarte. im really confused about that :) > > > > > > > > leandro > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 12:06:49 A.M. W. Europe Standard > Time, > > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > I am not sure which line we are talking about here, sorry I am a > > > little > > > > spun around on this one, what do you need clarified. > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > > [email protected] > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:58 PM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > > > Thank you Pat > > > > > > > > Lou...can u pls clarify this line for us please? > > > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > > > Leandro > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 10:54:59 P.M. W. Europe Standard > > Time, > > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > > > > > Not sure if this is the same "person." > > > > > > > > The only Pedro Afonso (Cavaleiro) I have is married to Leonor > > Homem, > > > > with > > > > the children that I mentioned in my posting attention Miguel > and > > Lou. > > > > > > > > I don't have Pedro's parents, but Leonor's parents are Joao > Homem > > (de > > > > Monte Gordo) and Catarina Vaz. > > > > > > > > Hopefully Miguel and/or Paulo will be able to add to this > thread. > > > > > > > > Ines Martins is Lou's ancestor... > > > > > > > > I must admit I'm more confused now than when I first started my > > > > genealogy > > > > quest many, many "moons," ago. I'm finding that what was is > not > > > > now...Frustrating to say the least. > > > > > > > > I'm trying to sort out Jorge Pinto and Leonor de Atouguia da > > Costa's > > > > line...my info differs from what's in Norhonha- titulo: > Pintos... > > > > Nothing > > > > consent but the state of change...;-))). > > > > > > > > Pat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:08:24 PM GMT -08:00 > US/Canada > > > Pacific > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > > > Pat, > > > > > > > > I have Pedro afonso and leonor de sousa having a daughter > called > > INES > > > > AFONSO and not ines martins. also she is married to fernao anes > > and > > > not > > > > to francisco duarte. Are we talking about the same person on > > here? or > > > > am i mistaken? > > > > > > > > Also, Lou, can you send me on my private email > > [email protected] > > > > descendency list of manuel duarte and guiomar camacho please? > > > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > > > Leandro > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27 pm > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > > > Pat, > > > > You are correct with the marriage record, however, his > baptismal > > > > record (11 Dec 1586 b#376,fl 202) as recorded by Dr. Mello, > list > > his > > > > full name as Francisco Rodrigues Duarte. His line from there > is > > as > > > > follows > > > > > > > > Parents Manuel Duarte + Guiomar Camacha Ribeira Brava Nov 26 > 1584 > > > > > > > > Manuel's Parents Francisco Duarte + Maria Fernandes Ribeira Brava > > May > > > > 22 1560 > > > > > > > > Guiomar's Parents Francisco Rodrigues Camacho + Catarina > Pestana > > > > > > > > Does this answer your questions? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat > > Corbera > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:40 PM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > > > Miguel, > > > > > > > > Isn't Pedro Afonso who is married to Leonor Homem one of your > > direct > > > > line ancestors? > > > > > > > > Their son Francisco Homem D'El-Rei is my direct line > ancestors, > > and > > > if > > > > my notes/memory serves me correctly Francisco's brother Fernao > > Ennes > > > is > > > > your ancestor... > > > > > > > > If the above is correct will you please share the descending > order > > > from > > > > > > > > Fernao Ennes to you... > > > > > > > > > > > > Pat > > > > > > > > p.s. Lou do you have this marriage record that you referenced > > below? > > > > On the Madeira Archives listing for this marriage, the couples' > > names > > > > are Ines Martins and Francisco Rodrigues...where did you get > the > > > Duarte > > > > name from? > > > > > > > > >Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, > he > > is > > > > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco > > > > Rodrigues Duarte on >16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book > #389,Fl > > 153) > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" > > > <[email protected]> > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:43:30 AM GMT -08:00 > US/Canada > > > Pacific > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > Lou, > > > > > > > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will > forever > > be. > > > > For us > > > > living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally > > > expected > > > > names > > > > from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if > not > > all > > > > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many > > people. > > > > > > > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be > > from > > > the > > > > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also > > have > > > > Homens > > > > from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we > > know > > > > there > > > > are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de > Sousa, > > > Homem > > > > de > > > > Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at > all, > > > > because a > > > > simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three > types). > > > > > > > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic > > taken > > > > from > > > > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) > are a > > > very > > > > ancient Portuguese family. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, I hope I was of some help, > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his > > marriage > > > > to > > > > Maria Lopes? > > > > > > > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a > > Lopo > > > as > > > > ascendant. > > > > > > > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III < > > [email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in > learn > > > mode > > > > and > > > > > have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > > > > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, > he > > is > > > > > mentioned > > > > > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues > > Duarte > > > > on 16 > > > > > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > > > > > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their > daughter > > > Maria > > > > Lopes > > > > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book > > #454, > > > fl > > > > 81) > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > Miguel > > de > > > > Castro > > > > > Henriques > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > > > Hello Lu, > > > > > > > > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I > mean > > > > typical > > > > > names from these times. > > > > > > > > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > > > > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. > > Any > > > > Drummond > > > > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son > or > > > > daughter ? > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All, > > > > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am > > sending > > > > them > > > > > out > > > > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help > or > > hints > > > are > > > > > > appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: > > Lugar > > > de > > > > Baixo > > > > > > > > > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > > > > > > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to > > 1568 > > > > > > > > > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > > > > > > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to > > 1568 > > > > > > > > > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > > > > > > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > > > > > > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > > > > > > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > > > > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > > > > > > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is > > > welcomed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > > without the > > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject > > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject > > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject > > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject > > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject > > and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

It can be the same line of the 19 th century madeiran famous genealogist Julião de Franca e Vasconcelos- On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < [email protected]> wrote: > Ah, that (their son's name) changes the perspective. Either Amaro Mendes > was a Mendes de Vasconcelos, or more probably she was a França de > Vasconcelos. In which case her ascendancy is known. I'll try perhaps > tomorrow or so, to work that out. But I'm now rather inclined to see Maria > de França as a França e Vasconcelos, because of her son's name. > > > Miguel > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 5:21 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Miguel, >> >> i dont have the docs. Just saw once on the microfilms the certificate of >> her son's wedding jose franca de vasconcelos with my direct ancestor maria >> telo de meneses in 1728 in sao vicente :( >> >> leandro >> >> >> In a message dated 06/12/2009 18:16:47 Romance Standard Time, >> [email protected] writes: >> >> Leandro, >> >> as she is a "Dona" chances are she is really from the Franças. The >> Franças >> were on their rise. They became one of the most powerful families in >> Madeira. Lords of I don't know how many morgadios. I am also descended >> for >> them, unfortunately not from the more fortunate trunks who inherited the >> lands. The system of morgadio had no pity for second, third, and fourth >> sons. >> >> Who are the witness or "padrinhos" in that document? >> >> Miguel >> >> On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 3:51 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Miguel.... >> > >> > im looking for the francas in S vicente as well. i have antonio mendes >> > married with dona maria de franca in mid 1600s (dont have the precise >> date) >> > but have no parents of the groom neither the bride. Can you help me >> with >> > that >> > please? >> > >> > Thank you >> > >> > Leandro >> > >> > >> > In a message dated 06/12/2009 16:40:05 Romance Standard Time, >> > [email protected] writes: >> > >> > Hello Lou, >> > >> > >> > The nª 4 Vicente de França de Andrada has a similar name to some >> Brasões >> > Teixeiras and Brasões Gouveias from S. Vicente. Have you explored his >> > line? >> > Somehow he must be of the Franças and of the Andrades. >> > >> > In 4. Is it Sebastina de A. de dau. of the nº 3 ? >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Miguel >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:14 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> > >> > > 1. Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira (ca. 1590, >> marriage >> not >> > > recorded in Ribeira Brava) >> > > >> > > 2. Francisco Rodrigues Duarte + Ines Martins(1) (Ribeira Brava, >> 16 >> > > Sept >> > > 1614 – B#389, fl 153) >> > > >> > > 3. Manuel Duarte(2) + Catarina de Abreu (widow) (Ribeira Brava, >> 27 >> > Aug >> > > 1640 – B#390, fl 41) >> > > >> > > 4. Vicente de Franca de Andrade + Sebastiana de Abreu(3) (Sao >> > Vicente, >> > > 5 Feb 1670 – B#579, fl 53) >> > > >> > > 5. Vicente de Franca(4) + Maria de Sa (Sao Vicente, 3 Sept 1696 >> – >> > > B#556, fl 63) >> > > >> > > 6. Basilio Pestana + Josefa de Franca(5) (Serra de Agua, 13 June >> 1735 >> > > – >> > > B#409, fl 24) >> > > >> > > 7. Francisco de Andrade(6) + Maria dos Reis (Serra de Agua, 20 >> Feb >> > > 1770 >> > > – B#409, fl 79) >> > > >> > > 8. Manuel de Andrade Silva(7) + Ana Maria (Serra de Agua, 30 >> Jan >> > 1815 >> > > – >> > > B#411, fl 8) >> > > >> > > 9. Manuel Pestana de Gouveia + Delfina Maria(8) (Serra de Agua, >> 9 >> > July >> > > 1849 – B#411, fl 110) >> > > >> > > 10. Joao de Abreu Amarelo(widower) + Delfina da Conceicao(9) >> Serra >> > de >> > > Agua, 13 April 1891 – R#6) >> > > >> > > 11. Antonio Neves de Abreu Amarelo(10) + Carolina de Sousa da >> Camara >> > > (Ponta do Sol, 3 Feb 1916 –R#2) >> > > >> > > 12. Louis Neves Abreu(11) + Maria Pita (Lowell, Massachusetts >> USA, 9 >> > > April 1939) >> > > >> > > 13. Louis Neves Abreu Jr(12) + Pauline Alice Genest (Lowell, >> > > Massachusetts USA, 7 Sept 1959) >> > > >> > > 14. Louis Neves Abreu III(13) + Deborah Elaine Bourgeois (Lowell, >> > > Massachusetts, USA 20 Oct 1979) >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: [email protected] >> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >> > [email protected] >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:30 PM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> > > >> > > yes..it helps a lot. do u have the ancestors of ines? im also >> descendant >> > of >> > > the homem family in ribeira brava >> > > >> > > thank you >> > > >> > > leandro >> > > >> > > >> > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 1:25:11 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >> > > [email protected] writes: >> > > >> > > Leandro, >> > > Okay I see the confusion, let me explain >> > > >> > > Ines Martin's Parents are Francisco Goncalves Homem and Isabel >> Pereira >> > > (marriage not recorded in Ribeira Brava) >> > > >> > > I hope that clears up the confusion. >> > > >> > > Lou >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: [email protected] >> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >> > [email protected] >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 6:32 PM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> > > >> > > hi lou, my doubt is on the children of pedro afonso and leonor >> homem. >> > > >> > > im descended from their dau ines afonso married with fernao anes. >> But >> > pat >> > > said that you have their dau as ines martins married with francisco >> > > rodrigues duarte. im really confused about that :) >> > > >> > > leandro >> > > >> > > >> > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 12:06:49 A.M. W. Europe Standard >> Time, >> > > [email protected] writes: >> > > >> > > Leandro, >> > > I am not sure which line we are talking about here, sorry I am a >> > little >> > > spun around on this one, what do you need clarified. >> > > >> > > Lou >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: [email protected] >> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >> > > [email protected] >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:58 PM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >> > > >> > > Thank you Pat >> > > >> > > Lou...can u pls clarify this line for us please? >> > > >> > > Thank you >> > > >> > > Leandro >> > > >> > > >> > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 10:54:59 P.M. W. Europe Standard >> Time, >> > > [email protected] writes: >> > > >> > > >> > > Leandro, >> > > >> > > Not sure if this is the same "person." >> > > >> > > The only Pedro Afonso (Cavaleiro) I have is married to Leonor >> Homem, >> > > with >> > > the children that I mentioned in my posting attention Miguel and >> Lou. >> > > >> > > I don't have Pedro's parents, but Leonor's parents are Joao Homem >> (de >> > > Monte Gordo) and Catarina Vaz. >> > > >> > > Hopefully Miguel and/or Paulo will be able to add to this >> thread. >> > > >> > > Ines Martins is Lou's ancestor... >> > > >> > > I must admit I'm more confused now than when I first started my >> > > genealogy >> > > quest many, many "moons," ago. I'm finding that what was is >> not >> > > now...Frustrating to say the least. >> > > >> > > I'm trying to sort out Jorge Pinto and Leonor de Atouguia da >> Costa's >> > > line...my info differs from what's in Norhonha- titulo: >> Pintos... >> > > Nothing >> > > consent but the state of change...;-))). >> > > >> > > Pat >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: [email protected] >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:08:24 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada >> > Pacific >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >> > > >> > > Pat, >> > > >> > > I have Pedro afonso and leonor de sousa having a daughter called >> INES >> > > AFONSO and not ines martins. also she is married to fernao anes >> and >> > not >> > > to francisco duarte. Are we talking about the same person on >> here? or >> > > am i mistaken? >> > > >> > > Also, Lou, can you send me on my private email >> [email protected] >> > > descendency list of manuel duarte and guiomar camacho please? >> > > >> > > Thank you >> > > >> > > Leandro >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27 pm >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >> > > >> > > Pat, >> > > You are correct with the marriage record, however, his baptismal >> > > record (11 Dec 1586 b#376,fl 202) as recorded by Dr. Mello, list >> his >> > > full name as Francisco Rodrigues Duarte. His line from there is >> as >> > > follows >> > > >> > > Parents Manuel Duarte + Guiomar Camacha Ribeira Brava Nov 26 >> 1584 >> > > >> > > Manuel's Parents Francisco Duarte + Maria Fernandes Ribeira Brava >> May >> > > 22 1560 >> > > >> > > Guiomar's Parents Francisco Rodrigues Camacho + Catarina >> Pestana >> > > >> > > Does this answer your questions? >> > > >> > > >> > > Regards, >> > > Lou >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: [email protected] >> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat >> Corbera >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:40 PM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >> > > >> > > Miguel, >> > > >> > > Isn't Pedro Afonso who is married to Leonor Homem one of your >> direct >> > > line ancestors? >> > > >> > > Their son Francisco Homem D'El-Rei is my direct line ancestors, >> and >> > if >> > > my notes/memory serves me correctly Francisco's brother Fernao >> Ennes >> > is >> > > your ancestor... >> > > >> > > If the above is correct will you please share the descending >> order >> > from >> > > >> > > Fernao Ennes to you... >> > > >> > > >> > > Pat >> > > >> > > p.s. Lou do you have this marriage record that you referenced >> below? >> > > On the Madeira Archives listing for this marriage, the couples' >> names >> > > are Ines Martins and Francisco Rodrigues...where did you get the >> > Duarte >> > > name from? >> > > >> > > >Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he >> is >> > > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco >> > > Rodrigues Duarte on >16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl >> 153) >> > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" >> > <[email protected]> >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:43:30 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada >> > Pacific >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> > > >> > > Lou, >> > > >> > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever >> be. >> > > For us >> > > living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally >> > expected >> > > names >> > > from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if >> not >> all >> > > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many >> people. >> > > >> > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be >> from >> > the >> > > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also >> have >> > > Homens >> > > from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we >> know >> > > there >> > > are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de >> Sousa, >> > Homem >> > > de >> > > Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at all, >> > > because a >> > > simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). >> > > >> > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic >> taken >> > > from >> > > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a >> > very >> > > ancient Portuguese family. >> > > >> > > >> > > Well, I hope I was of some help, >> > > >> > > Best regards, >> > > >> > > Miguel >> > > >> > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his >> marriage >> > > to >> > > Maria Lopes? >> > > >> > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a >> Lopo >> > as >> > > ascendant. >> > > >> > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III < >> [email protected]> >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > Miguel >> > > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn >> > mode >> > > and >> > > > have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. >> > > > >> > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he >> is >> > > > mentioned >> > > > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues >> Duarte >> > > on 16 >> > > > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) >> > > > >> > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter >> > Maria >> > > Lopes >> > > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book >> #454, >> > fl >> > > 81) >> > > > >> > > > Regards, >> > > > Lou >> > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > From: [email protected] >> > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel >> de >> > > Castro >> > > > Henriques >> > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM >> > > > To: [email protected] >> > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> > > > >> > > > Hello Lu, >> > > > >> > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I >> mean >> > > typical >> > > > names from these times. >> > > > >> > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? >> > > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. >> Any >> > > Drummond >> > > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or >> > > daughter ? >> > > > >> > > > Regards, >> > > > >> > > > Miguel >> > > > >> > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III >> > <[email protected]> >> > > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > All, >> > > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am >> sending >> > > them >> > > > out >> > > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or >> hints >> > are >> > > > > appreciated. >> > > > > >> > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: >> Lugar >> > de >> > > Baixo >> > > > > >> > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded >> > > > > >> > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to >> 1568 >> > > > > >> > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded >> > > > > >> > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to >> 1568 >> > > > > >> > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 >> > > > > >> > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 >> > > > > >> > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 >> > > > > >> > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco >> > > > > >> > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 >> > > > > >> > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is >> > welcomed. >> > > > > >> > > > > Lou >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------- >> > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > > > [email protected] with the word >> 'unsubscribe' >> > > without the >> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > without >> > > the >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > without >> > > the >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > > the >> > > quotes in the subject >> > > and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > without >> > > the >> > > quotes in the subject >> > > and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > the >> > > quotes in the subject >> > > and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > the >> > > quotes in the subject >> > > and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > quotes in the subject >> > and the body of the message >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject >> and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >

Ah, that (their son's name) changes the perspective. Either Amaro Mendes was a Mendes de Vasconcelos, or more probably she was a França de Vasconcelos. In which case her ascendancy is known. I'll try perhaps tomorrow or so, to work that out. But I'm now rather inclined to see Maria de França as a França e Vasconcelos, because of her son's name. Miguel On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 5:21 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > > i dont have the docs. Just saw once on the microfilms the certificate of > her son's wedding jose franca de vasconcelos with my direct ancestor maria > telo de meneses in 1728 in sao vicente :( > > leandro > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 18:16:47 Romance Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Leandro, > > as she is a "Dona" chances are she is really from the Franças. The Franças > were on their rise. They became one of the most powerful families in > Madeira. Lords of I don't know how many morgadios. I am also descended for > them, unfortunately not from the more fortunate trunks who inherited the > lands. The system of morgadio had no pity for second, third, and fourth > sons. > > Who are the witness or "padrinhos" in that document? > > Miguel > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 3:51 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel.... > > > > im looking for the francas in S vicente as well. i have antonio mendes > > married with dona maria de franca in mid 1600s (dont have the precise > date) > > but have no parents of the groom neither the bride. Can you help me with > > that > > please? > > > > Thank you > > > > Leandro > > > > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 16:40:05 Romance Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > Hello Lou, > > > > > > The nª 4 Vicente de França de Andrada has a similar name to some > Brasões > > Teixeiras and Brasões Gouveias from S. Vicente. Have you explored his > > line? > > Somehow he must be of the Franças and of the Andrades. > > > > In 4. Is it Sebastina de A. de dau. of the nº 3 ? > > > > Regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:14 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > 1. Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira (ca. 1590, marriage > not > > > recorded in Ribeira Brava) > > > > > > 2. Francisco Rodrigues Duarte + Ines Martins(1) (Ribeira Brava, > 16 > > > Sept > > > 1614 – B#389, fl 153) > > > > > > 3. Manuel Duarte(2) + Catarina de Abreu (widow) (Ribeira Brava, > 27 > > Aug > > > 1640 – B#390, fl 41) > > > > > > 4. Vicente de Franca de Andrade + Sebastiana de Abreu(3) (Sao > > Vicente, > > > 5 Feb 1670 – B#579, fl 53) > > > > > > 5. Vicente de Franca(4) + Maria de Sa (Sao Vicente, 3 Sept 1696 > – > > > B#556, fl 63) > > > > > > 6. Basilio Pestana + Josefa de Franca(5) (Serra de Agua, 13 June > 1735 > > > – > > > B#409, fl 24) > > > > > > 7. Francisco de Andrade(6) + Maria dos Reis (Serra de Agua, 20 > Feb > > > 1770 > > > – B#409, fl 79) > > > > > > 8. Manuel de Andrade Silva(7) + Ana Maria (Serra de Agua, 30 Jan > > 1815 > > > – > > > B#411, fl 8) > > > > > > 9. Manuel Pestana de Gouveia + Delfina Maria(8) (Serra de Agua, 9 > > July > > > 1849 – B#411, fl 110) > > > > > > 10. Joao de Abreu Amarelo(widower) + Delfina da Conceicao(9) > Serra > > de > > > Agua, 13 April 1891 – R#6) > > > > > > 11. Antonio Neves de Abreu Amarelo(10) + Carolina de Sousa da > Camara > > > (Ponta do Sol, 3 Feb 1916 –R#2) > > > > > > 12. Louis Neves Abreu(11) + Maria Pita (Lowell, Massachusetts > USA, 9 > > > April 1939) > > > > > > 13. Louis Neves Abreu Jr(12) + Pauline Alice Genest (Lowell, > > > Massachusetts USA, 7 Sept 1959) > > > > > > 14. Louis Neves Abreu III(13) + Deborah Elaine Bourgeois (Lowell, > > > Massachusetts, USA 20 Oct 1979) > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > [email protected] > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:30 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > yes..it helps a lot. do u have the ancestors of ines? im also > descendant > > of > > > the homem family in ribeira brava > > > > > > thank you > > > > > > leandro > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 1:25:11 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > Leandro, > > > Okay I see the confusion, let me explain > > > > > > Ines Martin's Parents are Francisco Goncalves Homem and Isabel > Pereira > > > (marriage not recorded in Ribeira Brava) > > > > > > I hope that clears up the confusion. > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > [email protected] > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 6:32 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > hi lou, my doubt is on the children of pedro afonso and leonor > homem. > > > > > > im descended from their dau ines afonso married with fernao anes. > But > > pat > > > said that you have their dau as ines martins married with francisco > > > rodrigues duarte. im really confused about that :) > > > > > > leandro > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 12:06:49 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > Leandro, > > > I am not sure which line we are talking about here, sorry I am a > > little > > > spun around on this one, what do you need clarified. > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > [email protected] > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:58 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > Thank you Pat > > > > > > Lou...can u pls clarify this line for us please? > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > Leandro > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 10:54:59 P.M. W. Europe Standard > Time, > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > > > Not sure if this is the same "person." > > > > > > The only Pedro Afonso (Cavaleiro) I have is married to Leonor > Homem, > > > with > > > the children that I mentioned in my posting attention Miguel and > Lou. > > > > > > I don't have Pedro's parents, but Leonor's parents are Joao Homem > (de > > > Monte Gordo) and Catarina Vaz. > > > > > > Hopefully Miguel and/or Paulo will be able to add to this thread. > > > > > > Ines Martins is Lou's ancestor... > > > > > > I must admit I'm more confused now than when I first started my > > > genealogy > > > quest many, many "moons," ago. I'm finding that what was is not > > > now...Frustrating to say the least. > > > > > > I'm trying to sort out Jorge Pinto and Leonor de Atouguia da > Costa's > > > line...my info differs from what's in Norhonha- titulo: Pintos... > > > Nothing > > > consent but the state of change...;-))). > > > > > > Pat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:08:24 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada > > Pacific > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > Pat, > > > > > > I have Pedro afonso and leonor de sousa having a daughter called > INES > > > AFONSO and not ines martins. also she is married to fernao anes > and > > not > > > to francisco duarte. Are we talking about the same person on > here? or > > > am i mistaken? > > > > > > Also, Lou, can you send me on my private email > [email protected] > > > descendency list of manuel duarte and guiomar camacho please? > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > Leandro > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27 pm > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > Pat, > > > You are correct with the marriage record, however, his baptismal > > > record (11 Dec 1586 b#376,fl 202) as recorded by Dr. Mello, list > his > > > full name as Francisco Rodrigues Duarte. His line from there is > as > > > follows > > > > > > Parents Manuel Duarte + Guiomar Camacha Ribeira Brava Nov 26 1584 > > > > > > Manuel's Parents Francisco Duarte + Maria Fernandes Ribeira Brava > May > > > 22 1560 > > > > > > Guiomar's Parents Francisco Rodrigues Camacho + Catarina Pestana > > > > > > Does this answer your questions? > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Lou > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat > Corbera > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:40 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > Miguel, > > > > > > Isn't Pedro Afonso who is married to Leonor Homem one of your > direct > > > line ancestors? > > > > > > Their son Francisco Homem D'El-Rei is my direct line ancestors, > and > > if > > > my notes/memory serves me correctly Francisco's brother Fernao > Ennes > > is > > > your ancestor... > > > > > > If the above is correct will you please share the descending order > > from > > > > > > Fernao Ennes to you... > > > > > > > > > Pat > > > > > > p.s. Lou do you have this marriage record that you referenced > below? > > > On the Madeira Archives listing for this marriage, the couples' > names > > > are Ines Martins and Francisco Rodrigues...where did you get the > > Duarte > > > name from? > > > > > > >Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he > is > > > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco > > > Rodrigues Duarte on >16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl > 153) > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" > > <[email protected]> > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:43:30 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada > > Pacific > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > Lou, > > > > > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever > be. > > > For us > > > living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally > > expected > > > names > > > from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if not > all > > > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many > people. > > > > > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be > from > > the > > > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also > have > > > Homens > > > from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we > know > > > there > > > are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de Sousa, > > Homem > > > de > > > Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at all, > > > because a > > > simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). > > > > > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic > taken > > > from > > > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a > > very > > > ancient Portuguese family. > > > > > > > > > Well, I hope I was of some help, > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his > marriage > > > to > > > Maria Lopes? > > > > > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a > Lopo > > as > > > ascendant. > > > > > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III < > [email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn > > mode > > > and > > > > have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he > is > > > > mentioned > > > > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues > Duarte > > > on 16 > > > > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > > > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter > > Maria > > > Lopes > > > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book > #454, > > fl > > > 81) > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel > de > > > Castro > > > > Henriques > > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > Hello Lu, > > > > > > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean > > > typical > > > > names from these times. > > > > > > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > > > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. > Any > > > Drummond > > > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or > > > daughter ? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III > > <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All, > > > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am > sending > > > them > > > > out > > > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or > hints > > are > > > > > appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: > Lugar > > de > > > Baixo > > > > > > > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > > > > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to > 1568 > > > > > > > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > > > > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to > 1568 > > > > > > > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > > > > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > > > > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > > > > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > > > > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is > > welcomed. > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the > > > quotes in the subject > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > the > > > quotes in the subject > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject > > and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Leandro, as she is a "Dona" chances are she is really from the Franças. The Franças were on their rise. They became one of the most powerful families in Madeira. Lords of I don't know how many morgadios. I am also descended for them, unfortunately not from the more fortunate trunks who inherited the lands. The system of morgadio had no pity for second, third, and fourth sons. Who are the witness or "padrinhos" in that document? Miguel On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 3:51 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Miguel.... > > im looking for the francas in S vicente as well. i have antonio mendes > married with dona maria de franca in mid 1600s (dont have the precise date) > but have no parents of the groom neither the bride. Can you help me with > that > please? > > Thank you > > Leandro > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 16:40:05 Romance Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Hello Lou, > > > The nª 4 Vicente de França de Andrada has a similar name to some Brasões > Teixeiras and Brasões Gouveias from S. Vicente. Have you explored his > line? > Somehow he must be of the Franças and of the Andrades. > > In 4. Is it Sebastina de A. de dau. of the nº 3 ? > > Regards, > > Miguel > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:14 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > 1. Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira (ca. 1590, marriage not > > recorded in Ribeira Brava) > > > > 2. Francisco Rodrigues Duarte + Ines Martins(1) (Ribeira Brava, 16 > > Sept > > 1614 – B#389, fl 153) > > > > 3. Manuel Duarte(2) + Catarina de Abreu (widow) (Ribeira Brava, 27 > Aug > > 1640 – B#390, fl 41) > > > > 4. Vicente de Franca de Andrade + Sebastiana de Abreu(3) (Sao > Vicente, > > 5 Feb 1670 – B#579, fl 53) > > > > 5. Vicente de Franca(4) + Maria de Sa (Sao Vicente, 3 Sept 1696 – > > B#556, fl 63) > > > > 6. Basilio Pestana + Josefa de Franca(5) (Serra de Agua, 13 June 1735 > > – > > B#409, fl 24) > > > > 7. Francisco de Andrade(6) + Maria dos Reis (Serra de Agua, 20 Feb > > 1770 > > – B#409, fl 79) > > > > 8. Manuel de Andrade Silva(7) + Ana Maria (Serra de Agua, 30 Jan > 1815 > > – > > B#411, fl 8) > > > > 9. Manuel Pestana de Gouveia + Delfina Maria(8) (Serra de Agua, 9 > July > > 1849 – B#411, fl 110) > > > > 10. Joao de Abreu Amarelo(widower) + Delfina da Conceicao(9) Serra > de > > Agua, 13 April 1891 – R#6) > > > > 11. Antonio Neves de Abreu Amarelo(10) + Carolina de Sousa da Camara > > (Ponta do Sol, 3 Feb 1916 –R#2) > > > > 12. Louis Neves Abreu(11) + Maria Pita (Lowell, Massachusetts USA, 9 > > April 1939) > > > > 13. Louis Neves Abreu Jr(12) + Pauline Alice Genest (Lowell, > > Massachusetts USA, 7 Sept 1959) > > > > 14. Louis Neves Abreu III(13) + Deborah Elaine Bourgeois (Lowell, > > Massachusetts, USA 20 Oct 1979) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:30 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > yes..it helps a lot. do u have the ancestors of ines? im also descendant > of > > the homem family in ribeira brava > > > > thank you > > > > leandro > > > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 1:25:11 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > Leandro, > > Okay I see the confusion, let me explain > > > > Ines Martin's Parents are Francisco Goncalves Homem and Isabel Pereira > > (marriage not recorded in Ribeira Brava) > > > > I hope that clears up the confusion. > > > > Lou > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 6:32 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > hi lou, my doubt is on the children of pedro afonso and leonor homem. > > > > im descended from their dau ines afonso married with fernao anes. But > pat > > said that you have their dau as ines martins married with francisco > > rodrigues duarte. im really confused about that :) > > > > leandro > > > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 12:06:49 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > Leandro, > > I am not sure which line we are talking about here, sorry I am a > little > > spun around on this one, what do you need clarified. > > > > Lou > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > [email protected] > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:58 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > Thank you Pat > > > > Lou...can u pls clarify this line for us please? > > > > Thank you > > > > Leandro > > > > > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 10:54:59 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > Not sure if this is the same "person." > > > > The only Pedro Afonso (Cavaleiro) I have is married to Leonor Homem, > > with > > the children that I mentioned in my posting attention Miguel and Lou. > > > > I don't have Pedro's parents, but Leonor's parents are Joao Homem (de > > Monte Gordo) and Catarina Vaz. > > > > Hopefully Miguel and/or Paulo will be able to add to this thread. > > > > Ines Martins is Lou's ancestor... > > > > I must admit I'm more confused now than when I first started my > > genealogy > > quest many, many "moons," ago. I'm finding that what was is not > > now...Frustrating to say the least. > > > > I'm trying to sort out Jorge Pinto and Leonor de Atouguia da Costa's > > line...my info differs from what's in Norhonha- titulo: Pintos... > > Nothing > > consent but the state of change...;-))). > > > > Pat > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: [email protected] > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:08:24 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada > Pacific > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > Pat, > > > > I have Pedro afonso and leonor de sousa having a daughter called INES > > AFONSO and not ines martins. also she is married to fernao anes and > not > > to francisco duarte. Are we talking about the same person on here? or > > am i mistaken? > > > > Also, Lou, can you send me on my private email [email protected] > > descendency list of manuel duarte and guiomar camacho please? > > > > Thank you > > > > Leandro > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27 pm > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > Pat, > > You are correct with the marriage record, however, his baptismal > > record (11 Dec 1586 b#376,fl 202) as recorded by Dr. Mello, list his > > full name as Francisco Rodrigues Duarte. His line from there is as > > follows > > > > Parents Manuel Duarte + Guiomar Camacha Ribeira Brava Nov 26 1584 > > > > Manuel's Parents Francisco Duarte + Maria Fernandes Ribeira Brava May > > 22 1560 > > > > Guiomar's Parents Francisco Rodrigues Camacho + Catarina Pestana > > > > Does this answer your questions? > > > > > > Regards, > > Lou > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:40 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > Miguel, > > > > Isn't Pedro Afonso who is married to Leonor Homem one of your direct > > line ancestors? > > > > Their son Francisco Homem D'El-Rei is my direct line ancestors, and > if > > my notes/memory serves me correctly Francisco's brother Fernao Ennes > is > > your ancestor... > > > > If the above is correct will you please share the descending order > from > > > > Fernao Ennes to you... > > > > > > Pat > > > > p.s. Lou do you have this marriage record that you referenced below? > > On the Madeira Archives listing for this marriage, the couples' names > > are Ines Martins and Francisco Rodrigues...where did you get the > Duarte > > name from? > > > > >Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is > > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco > > Rodrigues Duarte on >16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" > <[email protected]> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:43:30 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada > Pacific > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > Lou, > > > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever be. > > For us > > living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally > expected > > names > > from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if not all > > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many people. > > > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from > the > > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also have > > Homens > > from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know > > there > > are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de Sousa, > Homem > > de > > Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at all, > > because a > > simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). > > > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken > > from > > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a > very > > ancient Portuguese family. > > > > > > Well, I hope I was of some help, > > > > Best regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his marriage > > to > > Maria Lopes? > > > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo > as > > ascendant. > > > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > Miguel > > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn > mode > > and > > > have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is > > > mentioned > > > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues Duarte > > on 16 > > > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter > Maria > > Lopes > > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book #454, > fl > > 81) > > > > > > Regards, > > > Lou > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > Castro > > > Henriques > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > Hello Lu, > > > > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean > > typical > > > names from these times. > > > > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any > > Drummond > > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or > > daughter ? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III > <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > All, > > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am sending > > them > > > out > > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or hints > are > > > > appreciated. > > > > > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar > de > > Baixo > > > > > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is > welcomed. > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > quotes in the subject > > and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > quotes in the subject > > and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject > > and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject > > and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message