Hello Miguel: The information on the Mata family is interesting to me too as I can track my line to Gaula and the Mata line(s). I tried to find a reference to the location of Certa online but cannot. Where is it located? Thank you Mary da Silva Frost

Hi Miguel.... Corrections made already. Thank you very much. About Frutuoso Pires, i got their names from their marriage certificate when it was available in NESOS. I would love to receive from you the ancestry of Matias de Andrada. Will be looking forward to that. Thank you Leandro In a message dated 12/10/2009 5:25:17 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Leandro, Since I have to start somewhere here are my suggestions of corrections: Gabriel de Nóbrega married Francisca d'Ocanha and not Francisca de Cunha - It makes all the difference, the D'OCanhas orginate in João d'Ocanha, Escudeiro. It was one of the first families to settle in Madeira. Minor nobility, of Spanish origin. But they very early linked with the Câmaras, with Henriques Alemão, etc. check HHN, "Canhas." Mundos de Nóbrega and not Mendo de Nóbrega. It also makes all the difference, since he is probably the only Mundos of all history of Madeira and of Portugal. His name could be Edmundo, but he is known as Mundos. He is José Fernandes', as well as Cece's and mine too (and also other in this list) direct ancestor. In José's case "directissimo", since it comes via his mother. In mine through a maternal, gg. mother. Leonor Marchena and not Lenor Machina. (I had a discussion about this Marchena in this list w+ith prima Pat, long ago, if I am not wrong) And one question - how do you know that Maria Tello married with Frutuoso Pires, was a Maria Telo de Meneses? I mean she may be, she most probably is, but in António Fernandes CL marriage with Catarina Fernandes ( I have the document, and am a direct descendant) ) she appears only as Maria Tello. About Frutuoso Pires I am convinced he is Pires de Canha, or Pires d'Ocanha. Just intuition and because of the witness Francisco Martins de Canha and Hilário Rodrigues (another Canha in disguise, IMO)- Francisco martions de Canha was a descedant of João Pires de Canha. Check geneall. They copied it from HHN. So it's bound to be right. If you're interested will try to send you the ascendancy of Matias de Andrada (you already have him) , who links with the Noronhas of Caniço, and with Alfonso Henriques. Conde de Noroña y Gijón. (A colourful character, attacked Cascais, the famous Portuguese cosmopolitan tourist resort (The Portuguese Cannes or Nice). Was in war for years with his half-brother, who happened to be the King of Spain. Almost won the war. But finally lost it and was sent into exile to France. He lost his title, fortune, position, and he and his wife , Isabel of Portugal (illegitimate daughter of a Portuguese King) etc. led a life of poverty until their deaths. It was not a small loss since he was probably the second most powerful man in Spain and the chief of a considerable part of the titled nobility. His sons, because of their kinship with the Kin of Portugal all went to Portugal. Where they received nobility titles and married into the highest nobility. Since then, among the old genealogists, there is saying "quem não tem sangue de Noronha, não é da nobreza a valer." Who has no Noronha blood is not from the real nobility." Whatever. Our times are more democratic. But it's worth remembering the social and historical importance the Noronhas had. They were Vice-Roys in the Portuguese India, Counts of this and that, Marquis, Bishops, and had the right to use "Dom" before their name. (Dom is a short word for Dominus, in latin, Lord or Sir). So to sum up, after the Royal House there was the House of the Noronhas. And then,hmmmmm, the others. regards, Miguel On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 4:40 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > hey Miguel, > > you are MORE THAN WELCOME to make suggestions and add new info. Actually, > not only you but all our cousins from the forum, which im so proud to be > related to. These cyber space is quite nice actually, it feels like a big > family. Thank you for your compliments and im looking forward to hear from > you > all. > > Leandro > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 17:30:40 Romance Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Hi Leandro, > > > Great job! Looks like an anthology of almost all Madeiran families - it > shows our many connections. For the moment I'm just seeing. You won't mind > if I point some corrections, namely in parts that are atributed to me? > Some > I have new data, others I have abandoned due to new facts and documents. > > Anyway a genealogical work is always a work in progress, subject to > significant changes sometimes, to minor alterations. > > Where to start? Well I picked , for a start, Afonso da Mata, who was > Escudeiro, and Isabel de Freitas. They are well known amidst the founding > fathers of all Gaula families. Quite recently I discovered that Isabel de > Freitas comes from the Freitas of Terras de Bouro (North of Portugal). It > seems a promising line. Yet certainly very difficult to track since it's > medieval. I'll try to ask in another forum to some MEDIEVAL specialists > who > were these Freitas. > > Clode says that Isabel de Freitas, bescause she was from S. Cruz > "probably" > belonged to the well known Freitas of Santa Cruz. It's a possibility. But > I > don't know the origin of these, apart what is common knowledge . they > descend from Gonçalo de Freitas. FCR, Monteiro. Mor do Infante D. > Fernando. > (I was never able to confirm this title) > > Well, > > Once again congratulations and > > regards, > > > Miguel > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 12:18 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > > > OK - now tell me how you did it?? :-) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:14 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] website > > > > hey guys, > > > > especially Cece, Ed, Jeff, Lou, Zack, Jose, Pat and Zelia, > > > > I just updated my website: _http://teles.tribalpages.com_ > > (http://teles.tribalpages.com) > > > > and put your ancestors of each of you with a coloured box, so in that > way > > would be easier to follow p how close we are related. > > > > let me know what you guys think > > > > thank u > > > > leandro > > > > > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 3:44:52 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > Lou, > > > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever be. > For > > us living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally > expected > > names from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if not > > all > > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many people. > > > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from > the > > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also have > > Homens from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we > know > > there are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de Sousa, > > Homem de Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at > all, > > because a simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three > types). > > > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken > from > > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a very > > ancient Portuguese family. > > > > > > Well, I hope I was of some help, > > > > Best regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his marriage > to > > Maria Lopes? > > > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo as > > ascendant. > > > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > Miguel > > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn mode > > > and have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is > > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues > > > Duarte on 16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter Maria > > Lopes > > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book #454, > fl > > > 81) > > > > > > Regards, > > > Lou > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > > Castro Henriques > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > Hello Lu, > > > > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean > > > typical names from these times. > > > > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any > > Drummond > > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or > > > daughter > > ? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > All, > > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am sending > > > > them > > > out > > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or hints > > > > are appreciated. > > > > > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar de > > Baixo > > > > > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is welcomed. > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.94/2545 - Release Date: > 12/05/09 > > 08:13:00 > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

oops sorry for some spelling mistakes but the text shoot out before I could correct. Among others, this is funny the Kin of Portugal ; -) is obviously the King of Portugal. On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 4:24 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < [email protected]> wrote: > Leandro, > > Since I have to start somewhere here are my suggestions of corrections: > > Gabriel de Nóbrega married Francisca d'Ocanha and not Francisca de Cunha - > It makes all the difference, the D'OCanhas orginate in João d'Ocanha, > Escudeiro. It was one of the first families to settle in Madeira. Minor > nobility, of Spanish origin. But they very early linked with the Câmaras, > with Henriques Alemão, etc. check HHN, "Canhas." > > Mundos de Nóbrega and not Mendo de Nóbrega. It also makes all the > difference, since he is probably the only Mundos of all history of Madeira > and of Portugal. His name could be Edmundo, but he is known as Mundos. He is > José Fernandes', as well as Cece's and mine too (and also other in this > list) direct ancestor. In José's case "directissimo", since it comes via his > mother. In mine through a maternal, gg. mother. > > Leonor Marchena and not Lenor Machina. (I had a discussion about this > Marchena in this list w+ith prima Pat, long ago, if I am not wrong) > > And one question - how do you know that Maria Tello married with Frutuoso > Pires, was a Maria Telo de Meneses? > > I mean she may be, she most probably is, but in António Fernandes CL > marriage with Catarina Fernandes > ( I have the document, and am a direct descendant) ) she appears only as > Maria Tello. > About Frutuoso Pires I am convinced he is Pires de Canha, or Pires > d'Ocanha. Just intuition and because of the witness Francisco Martins de > Canha and Hilário Rodrigues (another Canha in disguise, IMO)- Francisco > martions de Canha was a descedant of João Pires de Canha. Check geneall. > They copied it from HHN. So it's bound to be right. > > If you're interested will try to send you the ascendancy of Matias de > Andrada (you already have him) , who links with the Noronhas of Caniço, and > with Alfonso Henriques. Conde de Noroña y Gijón. (A colourful character, > attacked Cascais, the famous Portuguese cosmopolitan tourist resort (The > Portuguese Cannes or Nice). Was in war for years with his half-brother, who > happened to be the King of Spain. Almost won the war. But finally lost it > and was sent into exile to France. He lost his title, fortune, position, and > he and his wife , Isabel of Portugal (illegitimate daughter of a Portuguese > King) etc. led a life of poverty until their deaths. It was not a small loss > since he was probably the second most powerful man in Spain and the chief of > a considerable part of the titled nobility. > > His sons, because of their kinship with the Kin of Portugal all went to > Portugal. Where they received nobility titles and married into the highest > nobility. Since then, among the old genealogists, there is saying "quem não > tem sangue de Noronha, não é da nobreza a valer." Who has no Noronha blood > is not from the real nobility." Whatever. Our times are more democratic. But > it's worth remembering the social and historical importance the Noronhas > had. They were Vice-Roys in the Portuguese India, Counts of this and that, > Marquis, Bishops, and had the right to use "Dom" before their name. (Dom is > a short word for Dominus, in latin, Lord or Sir). So to sum up, after the > Royal House there was the House of the Noronhas. > And then,hmmmmm, the others. > > > > regards, > > Miguel > > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 4:40 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> hey Miguel, >> >> you are MORE THAN WELCOME to make suggestions and add new info. Actually, >> not only you but all our cousins from the forum, which im so proud to be >> related to. These cyber space is quite nice actually, it feels like a big >> family. Thank you for your compliments and im looking forward to hear >> from you >> all. >> >> Leandro >> >> >> In a message dated 06/12/2009 17:30:40 Romance Standard Time, >> [email protected] writes: >> >> Hi Leandro, >> >> >> Great job! Looks like an anthology of almost all Madeiran families - it >> shows our many connections. For the moment I'm just seeing. You won't >> mind >> if I point some corrections, namely in parts that are atributed to me? >> Some >> I have new data, others I have abandoned due to new facts and documents. >> >> Anyway a genealogical work is always a work in progress, subject to >> significant changes sometimes, to minor alterations. >> >> Where to start? Well I picked , for a start, Afonso da Mata, who was >> Escudeiro, and Isabel de Freitas. They are well known amidst the founding >> fathers of all Gaula families. Quite recently I discovered that Isabel de >> Freitas comes from the Freitas of Terras de Bouro (North of Portugal). It >> seems a promising line. Yet certainly very difficult to track since it's >> medieval. I'll try to ask in another forum to some MEDIEVAL specialists >> who >> were these Freitas. >> >> Clode says that Isabel de Freitas, bescause she was from S. Cruz >> "probably" >> belonged to the well known Freitas of Santa Cruz. It's a possibility. But >> I >> don't know the origin of these, apart what is common knowledge . they >> descend from Gonçalo de Freitas. FCR, Monteiro. Mor do Infante D. >> Fernando. >> (I was never able to confirm this title) >> >> Well, >> >> Once again congratulations and >> >> regards, >> >> >> Miguel >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 12:18 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]ll.com> >> wrote: >> >> > OK - now tell me how you did it?? :-) >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: [email protected] >> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >> [email protected] >> > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:14 PM >> > To: [email protected] >> > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] website >> > >> > hey guys, >> > >> > especially Cece, Ed, Jeff, Lou, Zack, Jose, Pat and Zelia, >> > >> > I just updated my website: _http://teles.tribalpages.com_ >> > (http://teles.tribalpages.com) >> > >> > and put your ancestors of each of you with a coloured box, so in that >> way >> > would be easier to follow p how close we are related. >> > >> > let me know what you guys think >> > >> > thank u >> > >> > leandro >> > >> > >> > In a message dated 12/5/2009 3:44:52 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >> > [email protected] writes: >> > >> > Lou, >> > >> > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever be. >> For >> > us living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally >> expected >> > names from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if >> not >> > all >> > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many people. >> > >> > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from >> the >> > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also have >> > Homens from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we >> know >> > there are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de >> Sousa, >> > Homem de Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at >> all, >> > because a simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three >> types). >> > >> > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken >> from >> > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a very >> > ancient Portuguese family. >> > >> > >> > Well, I hope I was of some help, >> > >> > Best regards, >> > >> > Miguel >> > >> > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his marriage >> to >> > Maria Lopes? >> > >> > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo as >> > ascendant. >> > >> > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Miguel >> > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn mode >> > > and have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. >> > > >> > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is >> > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco >> Rodrigues >> > > Duarte on 16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) >> > > >> > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter >> Maria >> > Lopes >> > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book #454, >> fl >> > > 81) >> > > >> > > Regards, >> > > Lou >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: [email protected] >> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de >> > > Castro Henriques >> > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> > > >> > > Hello Lu, >> > > >> > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean >> > > typical names from these times. >> > > >> > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? >> > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any >> > Drummond >> > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or >> > > daughter >> > ? >> > > >> > > Regards, >> > > >> > > Miguel >> > > >> > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected] >> > >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > >> > > > All, >> > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am sending >> > > > them >> > > out >> > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or hints >> > > > are appreciated. >> > > > >> > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar de >> > Baixo >> > > > >> > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded >> > > > >> > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 >> > > > >> > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded >> > > > >> > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 >> > > > >> > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 >> > > > >> > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 >> > > > >> > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 >> > > > >> > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco >> > > > >> > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 >> > > > >> > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is welcomed. >> > > > >> > > > Lou >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > the >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > No virus found in this incoming message. >> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.94/2545 - Release Date: >> 12/05/09 >> > 08:13:00 >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject >> and the body of the message >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >

Leandro, Since I have to start somewhere here are my suggestions of corrections: Gabriel de Nóbrega married Francisca d'Ocanha and not Francisca de Cunha - It makes all the difference, the D'OCanhas orginate in João d'Ocanha, Escudeiro. It was one of the first families to settle in Madeira. Minor nobility, of Spanish origin. But they very early linked with the Câmaras, with Henriques Alemão, etc. check HHN, "Canhas." Mundos de Nóbrega and not Mendo de Nóbrega. It also makes all the difference, since he is probably the only Mundos of all history of Madeira and of Portugal. His name could be Edmundo, but he is known as Mundos. He is José Fernandes', as well as Cece's and mine too (and also other in this list) direct ancestor. In José's case "directissimo", since it comes via his mother. In mine through a maternal, gg. mother. Leonor Marchena and not Lenor Machina. (I had a discussion about this Marchena in this list w+ith prima Pat, long ago, if I am not wrong) And one question - how do you know that Maria Tello married with Frutuoso Pires, was a Maria Telo de Meneses? I mean she may be, she most probably is, but in António Fernandes CL marriage with Catarina Fernandes ( I have the document, and am a direct descendant) ) she appears only as Maria Tello. About Frutuoso Pires I am convinced he is Pires de Canha, or Pires d'Ocanha. Just intuition and because of the witness Francisco Martins de Canha and Hilário Rodrigues (another Canha in disguise, IMO)- Francisco martions de Canha was a descedant of João Pires de Canha. Check geneall. They copied it from HHN. So it's bound to be right. If you're interested will try to send you the ascendancy of Matias de Andrada (you already have him) , who links with the Noronhas of Caniço, and with Alfonso Henriques. Conde de Noroña y Gijón. (A colourful character, attacked Cascais, the famous Portuguese cosmopolitan tourist resort (The Portuguese Cannes or Nice). Was in war for years with his half-brother, who happened to be the King of Spain. Almost won the war. But finally lost it and was sent into exile to France. He lost his title, fortune, position, and he and his wife , Isabel of Portugal (illegitimate daughter of a Portuguese King) etc. led a life of poverty until their deaths. It was not a small loss since he was probably the second most powerful man in Spain and the chief of a considerable part of the titled nobility. His sons, because of their kinship with the Kin of Portugal all went to Portugal. Where they received nobility titles and married into the highest nobility. Since then, among the old genealogists, there is saying "quem não tem sangue de Noronha, não é da nobreza a valer." Who has no Noronha blood is not from the real nobility." Whatever. Our times are more democratic. But it's worth remembering the social and historical importance the Noronhas had. They were Vice-Roys in the Portuguese India, Counts of this and that, Marquis, Bishops, and had the right to use "Dom" before their name. (Dom is a short word for Dominus, in latin, Lord or Sir). So to sum up, after the Royal House there was the House of the Noronhas. And then,hmmmmm, the others. regards, Miguel On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 4:40 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > hey Miguel, > > you are MORE THAN WELCOME to make suggestions and add new info. Actually, > not only you but all our cousins from the forum, which im so proud to be > related to. These cyber space is quite nice actually, it feels like a big > family. Thank you for your compliments and im looking forward to hear from > you > all. > > Leandro > > > In a message dated 06/12/2009 17:30:40 Romance Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Hi Leandro, > > > Great job! Looks like an anthology of almost all Madeiran families - it > shows our many connections. For the moment I'm just seeing. You won't mind > if I point some corrections, namely in parts that are atributed to me? > Some > I have new data, others I have abandoned due to new facts and documents. > > Anyway a genealogical work is always a work in progress, subject to > significant changes sometimes, to minor alterations. > > Where to start? Well I picked , for a start, Afonso da Mata, who was > Escudeiro, and Isabel de Freitas. They are well known amidst the founding > fathers of all Gaula families. Quite recently I discovered that Isabel de > Freitas comes from the Freitas of Terras de Bouro (North of Portugal). It > seems a promising line. Yet certainly very difficult to track since it's > medieval. I'll try to ask in another forum to some MEDIEVAL specialists > who > were these Freitas. > > Clode says that Isabel de Freitas, bescause she was from S. Cruz > "probably" > belonged to the well known Freitas of Santa Cruz. It's a possibility. But > I > don't know the origin of these, apart what is common knowledge . they > descend from Gonçalo de Freitas. FCR, Monteiro. Mor do Infante D. > Fernando. > (I was never able to confirm this title) > > Well, > > Once again congratulations and > > regards, > > > Miguel > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 12:18 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > > > OK - now tell me how you did it?? :-) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:14 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] website > > > > hey guys, > > > > especially Cece, Ed, Jeff, Lou, Zack, Jose, Pat and Zelia, > > > > I just updated my website: _http://teles.tribalpages.com_ > > (http://teles.tribalpages.com) > > > > and put your ancestors of each of you with a coloured box, so in that > way > > would be easier to follow p how close we are related. > > > > let me know what you guys think > > > > thank u > > > > leandro > > > > > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 3:44:52 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > Lou, > > > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever be. > For > > us living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally > expected > > names from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if not > > all > > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many people. > > > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from > the > > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also have > > Homens from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we > know > > there are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de Sousa, > > Homem de Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at > all, > > because a simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three > types). > > > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken > from > > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a very > > ancient Portuguese family. > > > > > > Well, I hope I was of some help, > > > > Best regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his marriage > to > > Maria Lopes? > > > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo as > > ascendant. > > > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > Miguel > > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn mode > > > and have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is > > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues > > > Duarte on 16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter Maria > > Lopes > > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book #454, > fl > > > 81) > > > > > > Regards, > > > Lou > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > > Castro Henriques > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > Hello Lu, > > > > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean > > > typical names from these times. > > > > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any > > Drummond > > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or > > > daughter > > ? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > All, > > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am sending > > > > them > > > out > > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or hints > > > > are appreciated. > > > > > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar de > > Baixo > > > > > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is welcomed. > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.94/2545 - Release Date: > 12/05/09 > > 08:13:00 > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

As Gouveia e Freitas says (in Famílias de Gaula) that Afonso da Mata, Escudeiro, m. 1490 Isabel de Freitasm is g.son of Gonçalo Anes da Mata and Maria Teles, Here, extracted form geneall forum. is a mail from Luís Piçarra where these Matas are said to be from Certã. Miguel No seu livro " Antiguidades, Famílias e Varões Ilustres de Cernache do Bonjardim e seus contornos", Cândido Teixeira apresenta um título de "MATAS DA CERTÃ " no capítulo CXCV págs. 710 a 716. No Genall há páginas editadas de algumas dessas mesmas pessoas, mas com o apelido MOTA , aparecendo como fonte o Gayo- (títulos de Motas e Coutinhos). http://www.geneall.net/P/per_page.php?id=310507 Serão certamente os mesmos, pela filiação, casamentos e irmãos. Para além disso, Cândido Teixeira recua nesse ramo mais quatro gerações, desses MATAS. Assim, o GASPAR NUNES DA MATA casado com N (tanto no Geneall como no livro de C. Teixeira), aparece na referida obra como: sendo : -Filho de GASPAR NUNES DA MATA, que viveu na Certã onde foi "juiz e vereador e dos principais da terra, e se tratava à lei da nobreza continuadamente" e de sua mulher Maria Fernandes.( com consta na nota de Diniz Camacho tab. na Certã em 1532); -Neto paterno de NUNO GONÇALVES DA MATA que " foi homem mui principal na vila da Certã onde viveu sempre com muita nobreza e foi vereador e juíz nela" e de sua mullher Mécia Fróes, filha de D. Fr. Lourenço Fróes, Comendador da Ordem de Malta; -Bisneto de GONÇALO ANES DA MATA e de sua mulher Maria Teles, filha de Nuno Teles de Faria; -Trineto de GONÇALO ANES DA MATA; Será que alguém, com acesso a outras fontes, poderá ajudar no sentido de se saber como se chamava desta gente da Certã? Cumprimentos, Luís Piçarra

> > Does anyone has any info about this couple: Manuel Fernandes (Camacho) m. Maria de Andrade . 1650. S. Gonçalo.? Thanks in advance for any news. Miguel

Don, you'll do just fine... ;-) Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2009 12:47:03 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION Pat thanks for the informaiton. I guess I will do my best and start to learn what I should have many years ago. Don L ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Corbera" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > Don, > The publication that I noted, that's on film at LDS is in Portuguese. > > Before I started my research journey I could not read Portuguese, nor > speak it, let alone write it, but with the help of an > English-Portuguese/Portuguese-English Dictionary, the reading task became > easier. > > I do understand the spoken Portuguese, but I'm still working on my > conversational and written skills that I so badly lack. > > Do you speak/understand the spoken Portuguese? > > If you get "stumped," just post to this list group, so many helpful > individuals, so willing to help... > > Pat > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2009 11:20:42 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > Are any of these publications mentioned transcribed into English? > Tthat would be of great importance, when one can not read Portuguese. > Thanks, Don L > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "deepsea06" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:51 PM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > Miguel and Pat, > Thank you so much for pointing me in the right direction. Beleive > it or not I have been working on this genealogy since 1985, both on > the Madeiran side and the Canadian side, it has been a journey and one > which I have enjoyed immensely, especially for the people I have come > to know along the way. Now begins my journey in understanding the > foundations from whence these people came. > > Cheers, > Lou > > On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Pat Corbera <[email protected]> > wrote: >> Lou, >> >> The "Registo Genealogico De Familias Que Passaram A Madeira by Luiz Peter >> Clode can be ordered and viewed at your local Family History Center of >> LDS, the film number is >> 1183626 Item #5. >> >> I thought this publication was online, but I couldn't find it today. >> >> Pat >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2009 9:53:41 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> >> Lou, >> >> Clode, HHN and Felisberto were available on-line, on the NESOS site. We >> are >> all waiting for that site to re-open. It had ALL the books ever published >> about Madeira. >> Elucidário Madeirense was on line on Alberto Vieira's site. I think. I >> have >> a copy of the first edition. >> >> For illustrious members of madeiran families you have Clode's "Registo >> bio-biliográfico de Madeirenses ilustres." My grand-father has the honour >> of >> being included. (As well as in the "Elucidário"). It is a good source for >> genealogical data, too. >> >> Elucidário madeirense, too, reports some of the more prominent and oldest >> families. And it is also a genealogical source. Ir refers the parishes, >> the >> first priests. And the oldest families who settled there and the names of >> the places. >> >> It has mistakes, of course. And some old families are not referred. But >> it >> is a must. >> >> For the moment, though it has mistakes, omissions, etc. and is a bit >> ideologically biased, you could also consult Padre Nunes Pereira, Ilhas >> de >> Zargo- It was on-line, the genealogical part at least. With many of the >> oldest families from Madeira. >> At one point we all connect with at least one or some or several of these >> oldest families. >> So, Ilhas de Zargo is also a must. >> >> BTW Pe. Nunes Pereira was closely related to my family. >> >> Well, I hope I have been of some help, >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Miguel >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Lou, >>> >>> I think that the best introduction to genealogy is History. To set the >>> families in contrast with their times and societies one should have an >>> historical background. >>> >>> So the first book that I suggest you and everyone to read is a book of >>> Portuguese History. I would recommend "The First Global Village" (How >>> Portugal changed the World) by Martin Page, Editorial Notícias. Maybe >>> you >>> can get it by Amazon. >>> >>> "Portugal is Europe's south-western extremity washed by the Atlantic and >>> warmed by the Mediterranean sun. Alone among Iberia's ancient kingdoms, >>> it >>> is a nation half the size of Florida, with two-thirds the population. >>> Yet >>> over centuries, it has influenced the lives of the rest of us far more >>> than >>> many larger and more powerful countries." >>> >>> "Martin Page provides a fresh perspective on a fascinating country. The >>> First Global Village is an enthralling narrative. (Peter Wise, the >>> Financial >>> Times) >>> >>> >>> "Martin Page is full of live" (The New Yorker) >>> >>> >>> Once you got the general picture of Portuguese history and its action >>> over >>> the whole world, as a madeiran descendant you should read something >>> about >>> Madeira history. There are several Portuguese and Foreign authors who >>> wrote >>> about Madeira. You can find on Alberto Vieira's site lots of books about >>> Madeira. The ones I have at my hand here are all Portuguese. But it >>> would >>> be >>> a necessary instrument for any madeiran descendant to constitute a small >>> library with books about Madeira. >>> >>> >>> And only then would I try to select some of the "genealogistas de >>> referência." A study on our own roots of course is a study of ourselves, >>> so >>> genealogy ends up being a discipline of self-knowledge, and not some >>> snobbish activity. >>> >>> >>> I will come later to this matter, >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Miguel >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Miguel etal., >>>> With all the talk of the founding families and history of Madeira etc., >>>> can you suggest a reading list that will enlighten me? Also how readily >>>> available are the genealogical works that you all mention so often, >>>> Clode, >>>> HHN etc. If not available in hard copy what about on the net. Thank you >>>> for >>>> all the wonderful education and enlightenment on my ancestors. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Lou >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [email protected] >>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >>>> Henriques >>>> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 12:11 PM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>>> >>>> Sebastiana appears as "Dona" Sebastiana, in the ARM - it shows she had >>>> some >>>> status as well as her husband. Try to explore the França de Andrade >>>> line. >>>> I >>>> think it's your high road and link to medieval times..Bon voyage! >>>> >>>> regards, >>>> >>>> Miguel >>>> >>>> On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Miguel, >>>> > Hope all is well with you. No I have not explored that line yet and >>>> yes >>>> > Sebastiana is the daughter of Manuel and Catarina #4. >>>> > >>>> > Cheers, >>>> > Lou >>>> > >>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>> > From: [email protected] >>>> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de >>>> > Castro >>>> > Henriques >>>> > Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 10:39 AM >>>> > To: [email protected] >>>> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>>> > >>>> > Hello Lou, >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > The nª 4 Vicente de França de Andrada has a similar name to some >>>> > Brasões >>>> > Teixeiras and Brasões Gouveias from S. Vicente. Have you explored his >>>> line? >>>> > Somehow he must be of the Franças and of the Andrades. >>>> > >>>> > In 4. Is it Sebastina de A. de dau. of the nº 3 ? >>>> > >>>> > Regards, >>>> > >>>> > Miguel >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:14 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > > 1. Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira (ca. 1590, marriage >>>> not >>>> > > recorded in Ribeira Brava) >>>> > > >>>> > > 2. Francisco Rodrigues Duarte + Ines Martins(1) (Ribeira Brava, >>>> 16 >>>> > > Sept >>>> > > 1614 – B#389, fl 153) >>>> > > >>>> > > 3. Manuel Duarte(2) + Catarina de Abreu (widow) (Ribeira Brava, >>>> 27 >>>> > Aug >>>> > > 1640 – B#390, fl 41) >>>> > > >>>> > > 4. Vicente de Franca de Andrade + Sebastiana de Abreu(3) (Sao >>>> > Vicente, >>>> > > 5 Feb 1670 – B#579, fl 53) >>>> > > >>>> > > 5. Vicente de Franca(4) + Maria de Sa (Sao Vicente, 3 Sept 1696 – >>>> > > B#556, fl 63) >>>> > > >>>> > > 6. Basilio Pestana + Josefa de Franca(5) (Serra de Agua, 13 June >>>> > 1735 >>>> > > – >>>> > > B#409, fl 24) >>>> > > >>>> > > 7. Francisco de Andrade(6) + Maria dos Reis (Serra de Agua, 20 >>>> Feb >>>> > > 1770 >>>> > > – B#409, fl 79) >>>> > > >>>> > > 8. Manuel de Andrade Silva(7) + Ana Maria (Serra de Agua, 30 Jan >>>> > 1815 >>>> > > – >>>> > > B#411, fl 8) >>>> > > >>>> > > 9. Manuel Pestana de Gouveia + Delfina Maria(8) (Serra de Agua, 9 >>>> > July >>>> > > 1849 – B#411, fl 110) >>>> > > >>>> > > 10. Joao de Abreu Amarelo(widower) + Delfina da Conceicao(9) Serra >>>> de >>>> > > Agua, 13 April 1891 – R#6) >>>> > > >>>> > > 11. Antonio Neves de Abreu Amarelo(10) + Carolina de Sousa da >>>> Camara >>>> > > (Ponta do Sol, 3 Feb 1916 –R#2) >>>> > > >>>> > > 12. Louis Neves Abreu(11) + Maria Pita (Lowell, Massachusetts USA, >>>> 9 >>>> > > April 1939) >>>> > > >>>> > > 13. Louis Neves Abreu Jr(12) + Pauline Alice Genest (Lowell, >>>> > > Massachusetts USA, 7 Sept 1959) >>>> > > >>>> > > 14. Louis Neves Abreu III(13) + Deborah Elaine Bourgeois (Lowell, >>>> > > Massachusetts, USA 20 Oct 1979) >>>> > > >>>> > > -----Original Message----- >>>> > > From: [email protected] >>>> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >>>> > [email protected] >>>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:30 PM >>>> > > To: [email protected] >>>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>>> > > >>>> > > yes..it helps a lot. do u have the ancestors of ines? im also >>>> descendant >>>> > of >>>> > > the homem family in ribeira brava >>>> > > >>>> > > thank you >>>> > > >>>> > > leandro >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 1:25:11 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >>>> > > [email protected] writes: >>>> > > >>>> > > Leandro, >>>> > > Okay I see the confusion, let me explain >>>> > > >>>> > > Ines Martin's Parents are Francisco Goncalves Homem and Isabel >>>> Pereira >>>> > > (marriage not recorded in Ribeira Brava) >>>> > > >>>> > > I hope that clears up the confusion. >>>> > > >>>> > > Lou >>>> > > >>>> > > -----Original Message----- >>>> > > From: [email protected] >>>> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >>>> > [email protected] >>>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 6:32 PM >>>> > > To: [email protected] >>>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>>> > > >>>> > > hi lou, my doubt is on the children of pedro afonso and leonor >>>> > > homem. >>>> > > >>>> > > im descended from their dau ines afonso married with fernao anes. >>>> > > But >>>> > pat >>>> > > said that you have their dau as ines martins married with francisco >>>> > > rodrigues duarte. im really confused about that :) >>>> > > >>>> > > leandro >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 12:06:49 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >>>> > > [email protected] writes: >>>> > > >>>> > > Leandro, >>>> > > I am not sure which line we are talking about here, sorry I am a >>>> little >>>> > > spun around on this one, what do you need clarified. >>>> > > >>>> > > Lou >>>> > > >>>> > > -----Original Message----- >>>> > > From: [email protected] >>>> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >>>> > > [email protected] >>>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:58 PM >>>> > > To: [email protected] >>>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >>>> > > >>>> > > Thank you Pat >>>> > > >>>> > > Lou...can u pls clarify this line for us please? >>>> > > >>>> > > Thank you >>>> > > >>>> > > Leandro >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 10:54:59 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >>>> > > [email protected] writes: >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Leandro, >>>> > > >>>> > > Not sure if this is the same "person." >>>> > > >>>> > > The only Pedro Afonso (Cavaleiro) I have is married to Leonor >>>> Homem, >>>> > > with >>>> > > the children that I mentioned in my posting attention Miguel and >>>> Lou. >>>> > > >>>> > > I don't have Pedro's parents, but Leonor's parents are Joao Homem >>>> (de >>>> > > Monte Gordo) and Catarina Vaz. >>>> > > >>>> > > Hopefully Miguel and/or Paulo will be able to add to this thread. >>>> > > >>>> > > Ines Martins is Lou's ancestor... >>>> > > >>>> > > I must admit I'm more confused now than when I first started my >>>> > > genealogy >>>> > > quest many, many "moons," ago. I'm finding that what was is not >>>> > > now...Frustrating to say the least. >>>> > > >>>> > > I'm trying to sort out Jorge Pinto and Leonor de Atouguia da >>>> Costa's >>>> > > line...my info differs from what's in Norhonha- titulo: Pintos... >>>> > > Nothing >>>> > > consent but the state of change...;-))). >>>> > > >>>> > > Pat >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > > From: [email protected] >>>> > > To: [email protected] >>>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:08:24 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada >>>> > Pacific >>>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >>>> > > >>>> > > Pat, >>>> > > >>>> > > I have Pedro afonso and leonor de sousa having a daughter called >>>> INES >>>> > > AFONSO and not ines martins. also she is married to fernao anes and >>>> > not >>>> > > to francisco duarte. Are we talking about the same person on here? >>>> or >>>> > > am i mistaken? >>>> > > >>>> > > Also, Lou, can you send me on my private email >>>> > > [email protected] >>>> > > descendency list of manuel duarte and guiomar camacho please? >>>> > > >>>> > > Thank you >>>> > > >>>> > > Leandro >>>> > > >>>> > > -----Original Message----- >>>> > > From: Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >>>> > > To: [email protected] >>>> > > Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27 pm >>>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >>>> > > >>>> > > Pat, >>>> > > You are correct with the marriage record, however, his baptismal >>>> > > record (11 Dec 1586 b#376,fl 202) as recorded by Dr. Mello, list >>>> his >>>> > > full name as Francisco Rodrigues Duarte. His line from there is as >>>> > > follows >>>> > > >>>> > > Parents Manuel Duarte + Guiomar Camacha Ribeira Brava Nov 26 1584 >>>> > > >>>> > > Manuel's Parents Francisco Duarte + Maria Fernandes Ribeira Brava >>>> May >>>> > > 22 1560 >>>> > > >>>> > > Guiomar's Parents Francisco Rodrigues Camacho + Catarina Pestana >>>> > > >>>> > > Does this answer your questions? >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Regards, >>>> > > Lou >>>> > > >>>> > > -----Original Message----- >>>> > > From: [email protected] >>>> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera >>>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:40 PM >>>> > > To: [email protected] >>>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >>>> > > >>>> > > Miguel, >>>> > > >>>> > > Isn't Pedro Afonso who is married to Leonor Homem one of your >>>> direct >>>> > > line ancestors? >>>> > > >>>> > > Their son Francisco Homem D'El-Rei is my direct line ancestors, and >>>> if >>>> > > my notes/memory serves me correctly Francisco's brother Fernao >>>> Ennes >>>> > is >>>> > > your ancestor... >>>> > > >>>> > > If the above is correct will you please share the descending order >>>> > from >>>> > > >>>> > > Fernao Ennes to you... >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Pat >>>> > > >>>> > > p.s. Lou do you have this marriage record that you referenced >>>> below? >>>> > > On the Madeira Archives listing for this marriage, the couples' >>>> names >>>> > > are Ines Martins and Francisco Rodrigues...where did you get the >>>> > Duarte >>>> > > name from? >>>> > > >>>> > > >Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is >>>> > > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco >>>> > > Rodrigues Duarte on >16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) >>>> > > >>>> > > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" < >>>> [email protected] >>>> > > >>>> > > To: [email protected] >>>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:43:30 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada >>>> > Pacific >>>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>>> > > >>>> > > Lou, >>>> > > >>>> > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever >>>> be. >>>> > > For us >>>> > > living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally >>>> expected >>>> > > names >>>> > > from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if not >>>> all >>>> > > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many >>>> people. >>>> > > >>>> > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from >>>> > the >>>> > > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also >>>> have >>>> > > Homens >>>> > > from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know >>>> > > there >>>> > > are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de Sousa, >>>> > Homem >>>> > > de >>>> > > Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at all, >>>> > > because a >>>> > > simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). >>>> > > >>>> > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken >>>> > > from >>>> > > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a >>>> very >>>> > > ancient Portuguese family. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Well, I hope I was of some help, >>>> > > >>>> > > Best regards, >>>> > > >>>> > > Miguel >>>> > > >>>> > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his >>>> marriage >>>> > > to >>>> > > Maria Lopes? >>>> > > >>>> > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo >>>> > as >>>> > > ascendant. >>>> > > >>>> > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected] >>>> > >>>> > > wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > > > Miguel >>>> > > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn >>>> mode >>>> > > and >>>> > > > have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he >>>> is >>>> > > > mentioned >>>> > > > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues >>>> Duarte >>>> > > on 16 >>>> > > > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter >>>> > Maria >>>> > > Lopes >>>> > > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book >>>> #454, >>>> > fl >>>> > > 81) >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Regards, >>>> > > > Lou >>>> > > > >>>> > > > -----Original Message----- >>>> > > > From: [email protected] >>>> > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de >>>> > > Castro >>>> > > > Henriques >>>> > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM >>>> > > > To: [email protected] >>>> > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Hello Lu, >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean >>>> > > typical >>>> > > > names from these times. >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? >>>> > > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any >>>> > > Drummond >>>> > > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or >>>> > > daughter ? >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Regards, >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Miguel >>>> > > > >>>> > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III < >>>> > [email protected]> >>>> > > > wrote: >>>> > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > All, >>>> > > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am >>>> sending >>>> > > them >>>> > > > out >>>> > > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or >>>> hints >>>> > are >>>> > > > > appreciated. >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar >>>> de >>>> > > Baixo >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to >>>> 1568 >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is >>>> welcomed. >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Lou >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > > without the >>>> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > without >>>> > > the >>>> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > without >>>> > > the >>>> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without >>>> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without >>>> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > > without >>>> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without >>>> > > the >>>> > > quotes in the subject >>>> > > and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without >>>> > > the >>>> > > quotes in the subject >>>> > > and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > > without >>>> > the >>>> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > > without >>>> > the >>>> > > quotes in the subject >>>> > > and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > > without >>>> > the >>>> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > > without >>>> > the >>>> > > quotes in the subject >>>> > > and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > > without >>>> the >>>> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > > without >>>> the >>>> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > ------------------------------- >>>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>> the >>>> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ------------------------------- >>>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>> the >>>> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>> the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>> the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Don, The publication that I noted, that's on film at LDS is in Portuguese. Before I started my research journey I could not read Portuguese, nor speak it, let alone write it, but with the help of an English-Portuguese/Portuguese-English Dictionary, the reading task became easier. I do understand the spoken Portuguese, but I'm still working on my conversational and written skills that I so badly lack. Do you speak/understand the spoken Portuguese? If you get "stumped," just post to this list group, so many helpful individuals, so willing to help... Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2009 11:20:42 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION Are any of these publications mentioned transcribed into English? Tthat would be of great importance, when one can not read Portuguese. Thanks, Don L ----- Original Message ----- From: "deepsea06" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:51 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION Miguel and Pat, Thank you so much for pointing me in the right direction. Beleive it or not I have been working on this genealogy since 1985, both on the Madeiran side and the Canadian side, it has been a journey and one which I have enjoyed immensely, especially for the people I have come to know along the way. Now begins my journey in understanding the foundations from whence these people came. Cheers, Lou On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Pat Corbera <[email protected]> wrote: > Lou, > > The "Registo Genealogico De Familias Que Passaram A Madeira by Luiz Peter > Clode can be ordered and viewed at your local Family History Center of > LDS, the film number is > 1183626 Item #5. > > I thought this publication was online, but I couldn't find it today. > > Pat > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2009 9:53:41 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > Lou, > > Clode, HHN and Felisberto were available on-line, on the NESOS site. We > are > all waiting for that site to re-open. It had ALL the books ever published > about Madeira. > Elucidário Madeirense was on line on Alberto Vieira's site. I think. I > have > a copy of the first edition. > > For illustrious members of madeiran families you have Clode's "Registo > bio-biliográfico de Madeirenses ilustres." My grand-father has the honour > of > being included. (As well as in the "Elucidário"). It is a good source for > genealogical data, too. > > Elucidário madeirense, too, reports some of the more prominent and oldest > families. And it is also a genealogical source. Ir refers the parishes, > the > first priests. And the oldest families who settled there and the names of > the places. > > It has mistakes, of course. And some old families are not referred. But it > is a must. > > For the moment, though it has mistakes, omissions, etc. and is a bit > ideologically biased, you could also consult Padre Nunes Pereira, Ilhas de > Zargo- It was on-line, the genealogical part at least. With many of the > oldest families from Madeira. > At one point we all connect with at least one or some or several of these > oldest families. > So, Ilhas de Zargo is also a must. > > BTW Pe. Nunes Pereira was closely related to my family. > > Well, I hope I have been of some help, > > > Best regards, > > Miguel > > > > > On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Lou, >> >> I think that the best introduction to genealogy is History. To set the >> families in contrast with their times and societies one should have an >> historical background. >> >> So the first book that I suggest you and everyone to read is a book of >> Portuguese History. I would recommend "The First Global Village" (How >> Portugal changed the World) by Martin Page, Editorial Notícias. Maybe you >> can get it by Amazon. >> >> "Portugal is Europe's south-western extremity washed by the Atlantic and >> warmed by the Mediterranean sun. Alone among Iberia's ancient kingdoms, >> it >> is a nation half the size of Florida, with two-thirds the population. Yet >> over centuries, it has influenced the lives of the rest of us far more >> than >> many larger and more powerful countries." >> >> "Martin Page provides a fresh perspective on a fascinating country. The >> First Global Village is an enthralling narrative. (Peter Wise, the >> Financial >> Times) >> >> >> "Martin Page is full of live" (The New Yorker) >> >> >> Once you got the general picture of Portuguese history and its action >> over >> the whole world, as a madeiran descendant you should read something about >> Madeira history. There are several Portuguese and Foreign authors who >> wrote >> about Madeira. You can find on Alberto Vieira's site lots of books about >> Madeira. The ones I have at my hand here are all Portuguese. But it would >> be >> a necessary instrument for any madeiran descendant to constitute a small >> library with books about Madeira. >> >> >> And only then would I try to select some of the "genealogistas de >> referência." A study on our own roots of course is a study of ourselves, >> so >> genealogy ends up being a discipline of self-knowledge, and not some >> snobbish activity. >> >> >> I will come later to this matter, >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Miguel >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Miguel etal., >>> With all the talk of the founding families and history of Madeira etc., >>> can you suggest a reading list that will enlighten me? Also how readily >>> available are the genealogical works that you all mention so often, >>> Clode, >>> HHN etc. If not available in hard copy what about on the net. Thank you >>> for >>> all the wonderful education and enlightenment on my ancestors. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Lou >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >>> Henriques >>> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 12:11 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>> >>> Sebastiana appears as "Dona" Sebastiana, in the ARM - it shows she had >>> some >>> status as well as her husband. Try to explore the França de Andrade >>> line. >>> I >>> think it's your high road and link to medieval times..Bon voyage! >>> >>> regards, >>> >>> Miguel >>> >>> On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Miguel, >>> > Hope all is well with you. No I have not explored that line yet and >>> yes >>> > Sebastiana is the daughter of Manuel and Catarina #4. >>> > >>> > Cheers, >>> > Lou >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: [email protected] >>> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de >>> > Castro >>> > Henriques >>> > Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 10:39 AM >>> > To: [email protected] >>> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>> > >>> > Hello Lou, >>> > >>> > >>> > The nª 4 Vicente de França de Andrada has a similar name to some >>> > Brasões >>> > Teixeiras and Brasões Gouveias from S. Vicente. Have you explored his >>> line? >>> > Somehow he must be of the Franças and of the Andrades. >>> > >>> > In 4. Is it Sebastina de A. de dau. of the nº 3 ? >>> > >>> > Regards, >>> > >>> > Miguel >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:14 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > > 1. Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira (ca. 1590, marriage >>> not >>> > > recorded in Ribeira Brava) >>> > > >>> > > 2. Francisco Rodrigues Duarte + Ines Martins(1) (Ribeira Brava, >>> 16 >>> > > Sept >>> > > 1614 – B#389, fl 153) >>> > > >>> > > 3. Manuel Duarte(2) + Catarina de Abreu (widow) (Ribeira Brava, >>> 27 >>> > Aug >>> > > 1640 – B#390, fl 41) >>> > > >>> > > 4. Vicente de Franca de Andrade + Sebastiana de Abreu(3) (Sao >>> > Vicente, >>> > > 5 Feb 1670 – B#579, fl 53) >>> > > >>> > > 5. Vicente de Franca(4) + Maria de Sa (Sao Vicente, 3 Sept 1696 – >>> > > B#556, fl 63) >>> > > >>> > > 6. Basilio Pestana + Josefa de Franca(5) (Serra de Agua, 13 June >>> > 1735 >>> > > – >>> > > B#409, fl 24) >>> > > >>> > > 7. Francisco de Andrade(6) + Maria dos Reis (Serra de Agua, 20 >>> Feb >>> > > 1770 >>> > > – B#409, fl 79) >>> > > >>> > > 8. Manuel de Andrade Silva(7) + Ana Maria (Serra de Agua, 30 Jan >>> > 1815 >>> > > – >>> > > B#411, fl 8) >>> > > >>> > > 9. Manuel Pestana de Gouveia + Delfina Maria(8) (Serra de Agua, 9 >>> > July >>> > > 1849 – B#411, fl 110) >>> > > >>> > > 10. Joao de Abreu Amarelo(widower) + Delfina da Conceicao(9) Serra >>> de >>> > > Agua, 13 April 1891 – R#6) >>> > > >>> > > 11. Antonio Neves de Abreu Amarelo(10) + Carolina de Sousa da >>> Camara >>> > > (Ponta do Sol, 3 Feb 1916 –R#2) >>> > > >>> > > 12. Louis Neves Abreu(11) + Maria Pita (Lowell, Massachusetts USA, >>> 9 >>> > > April 1939) >>> > > >>> > > 13. Louis Neves Abreu Jr(12) + Pauline Alice Genest (Lowell, >>> > > Massachusetts USA, 7 Sept 1959) >>> > > >>> > > 14. Louis Neves Abreu III(13) + Deborah Elaine Bourgeois (Lowell, >>> > > Massachusetts, USA 20 Oct 1979) >>> > > >>> > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > From: [email protected] >>> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >>> > [email protected] >>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:30 PM >>> > > To: [email protected] >>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>> > > >>> > > yes..it helps a lot. do u have the ancestors of ines? im also >>> descendant >>> > of >>> > > the homem family in ribeira brava >>> > > >>> > > thank you >>> > > >>> > > leandro >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 1:25:11 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >>> > > [email protected] writes: >>> > > >>> > > Leandro, >>> > > Okay I see the confusion, let me explain >>> > > >>> > > Ines Martin's Parents are Francisco Goncalves Homem and Isabel >>> Pereira >>> > > (marriage not recorded in Ribeira Brava) >>> > > >>> > > I hope that clears up the confusion. >>> > > >>> > > Lou >>> > > >>> > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > From: [email protected] >>> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >>> > [email protected] >>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 6:32 PM >>> > > To: [email protected] >>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>> > > >>> > > hi lou, my doubt is on the children of pedro afonso and leonor >>> > > homem. >>> > > >>> > > im descended from their dau ines afonso married with fernao anes. >>> > > But >>> > pat >>> > > said that you have their dau as ines martins married with francisco >>> > > rodrigues duarte. im really confused about that :) >>> > > >>> > > leandro >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 12:06:49 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >>> > > [email protected] writes: >>> > > >>> > > Leandro, >>> > > I am not sure which line we are talking about here, sorry I am a >>> little >>> > > spun around on this one, what do you need clarified. >>> > > >>> > > Lou >>> > > >>> > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > From: [email protected] >>> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >>> > > [email protected] >>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:58 PM >>> > > To: [email protected] >>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >>> > > >>> > > Thank you Pat >>> > > >>> > > Lou...can u pls clarify this line for us please? >>> > > >>> > > Thank you >>> > > >>> > > Leandro >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 10:54:59 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >>> > > [email protected] writes: >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Leandro, >>> > > >>> > > Not sure if this is the same "person." >>> > > >>> > > The only Pedro Afonso (Cavaleiro) I have is married to Leonor >>> Homem, >>> > > with >>> > > the children that I mentioned in my posting attention Miguel and >>> Lou. >>> > > >>> > > I don't have Pedro's parents, but Leonor's parents are Joao Homem >>> (de >>> > > Monte Gordo) and Catarina Vaz. >>> > > >>> > > Hopefully Miguel and/or Paulo will be able to add to this thread. >>> > > >>> > > Ines Martins is Lou's ancestor... >>> > > >>> > > I must admit I'm more confused now than when I first started my >>> > > genealogy >>> > > quest many, many "moons," ago. I'm finding that what was is not >>> > > now...Frustrating to say the least. >>> > > >>> > > I'm trying to sort out Jorge Pinto and Leonor de Atouguia da >>> Costa's >>> > > line...my info differs from what's in Norhonha- titulo: Pintos... >>> > > Nothing >>> > > consent but the state of change...;-))). >>> > > >>> > > Pat >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ----- Original Message ----- >>> > > From: [email protected] >>> > > To: [email protected] >>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:08:24 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada >>> > Pacific >>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >>> > > >>> > > Pat, >>> > > >>> > > I have Pedro afonso and leonor de sousa having a daughter called >>> INES >>> > > AFONSO and not ines martins. also she is married to fernao anes and >>> > not >>> > > to francisco duarte. Are we talking about the same person on here? >>> or >>> > > am i mistaken? >>> > > >>> > > Also, Lou, can you send me on my private email [email protected] >>> > > descendency list of manuel duarte and guiomar camacho please? >>> > > >>> > > Thank you >>> > > >>> > > Leandro >>> > > >>> > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > From: Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >>> > > To: [email protected] >>> > > Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27 pm >>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >>> > > >>> > > Pat, >>> > > You are correct with the marriage record, however, his baptismal >>> > > record (11 Dec 1586 b#376,fl 202) as recorded by Dr. Mello, list >>> his >>> > > full name as Francisco Rodrigues Duarte. His line from there is as >>> > > follows >>> > > >>> > > Parents Manuel Duarte + Guiomar Camacha Ribeira Brava Nov 26 1584 >>> > > >>> > > Manuel's Parents Francisco Duarte + Maria Fernandes Ribeira Brava >>> May >>> > > 22 1560 >>> > > >>> > > Guiomar's Parents Francisco Rodrigues Camacho + Catarina Pestana >>> > > >>> > > Does this answer your questions? >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Regards, >>> > > Lou >>> > > >>> > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > From: [email protected] >>> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera >>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:40 PM >>> > > To: [email protected] >>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >>> > > >>> > > Miguel, >>> > > >>> > > Isn't Pedro Afonso who is married to Leonor Homem one of your >>> direct >>> > > line ancestors? >>> > > >>> > > Their son Francisco Homem D'El-Rei is my direct line ancestors, and >>> if >>> > > my notes/memory serves me correctly Francisco's brother Fernao >>> Ennes >>> > is >>> > > your ancestor... >>> > > >>> > > If the above is correct will you please share the descending order >>> > from >>> > > >>> > > Fernao Ennes to you... >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Pat >>> > > >>> > > p.s. Lou do you have this marriage record that you referenced >>> below? >>> > > On the Madeira Archives listing for this marriage, the couples' >>> names >>> > > are Ines Martins and Francisco Rodrigues...where did you get the >>> > Duarte >>> > > name from? >>> > > >>> > > >Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is >>> > > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco >>> > > Rodrigues Duarte on >16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) >>> > > >>> > > ----- Original Message ----- >>> > > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" < >>> [email protected] >>> > > >>> > > To: [email protected] >>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:43:30 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada >>> > Pacific >>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>> > > >>> > > Lou, >>> > > >>> > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever >>> be. >>> > > For us >>> > > living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally >>> expected >>> > > names >>> > > from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if not >>> all >>> > > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many >>> people. >>> > > >>> > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from >>> > the >>> > > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also >>> have >>> > > Homens >>> > > from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know >>> > > there >>> > > are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de Sousa, >>> > Homem >>> > > de >>> > > Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at all, >>> > > because a >>> > > simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). >>> > > >>> > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken >>> > > from >>> > > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a >>> very >>> > > ancient Portuguese family. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Well, I hope I was of some help, >>> > > >>> > > Best regards, >>> > > >>> > > Miguel >>> > > >>> > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his >>> marriage >>> > > to >>> > > Maria Lopes? >>> > > >>> > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo >>> > as >>> > > ascendant. >>> > > >>> > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected] >>> > >>> > > wrote: >>> > > >>> > > > Miguel >>> > > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn >>> mode >>> > > and >>> > > > have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. >>> > > > >>> > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he >>> is >>> > > > mentioned >>> > > > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues >>> Duarte >>> > > on 16 >>> > > > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) >>> > > > >>> > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter >>> > Maria >>> > > Lopes >>> > > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book >>> #454, >>> > fl >>> > > 81) >>> > > > >>> > > > Regards, >>> > > > Lou >>> > > > >>> > > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > > From: [email protected] >>> > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de >>> > > Castro >>> > > > Henriques >>> > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM >>> > > > To: [email protected] >>> > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>> > > > >>> > > > Hello Lu, >>> > > > >>> > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean >>> > > typical >>> > > > names from these times. >>> > > > >>> > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? >>> > > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any >>> > > Drummond >>> > > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or >>> > > daughter ? >>> > > > >>> > > > Regards, >>> > > > >>> > > > Miguel >>> > > > >>> > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III < >>> > [email protected]> >>> > > > wrote: >>> > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > All, >>> > > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am >>> sending >>> > > them >>> > > > out >>> > > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or >>> hints >>> > are >>> > > > > appreciated. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar >>> de >>> > > Baixo >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to >>> 1568 >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 >>> > > > > >>> > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is >>> welcomed. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Lou >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > ------------------------------- >>> > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> > > without the >>> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > ------------------------------- >>> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> > without >>> > > the >>> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > ------------------------------- >>> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> > without >>> > > the >>> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without >>> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without >>> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without >>> > > the >>> > > quotes in the subject >>> > > and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without >>> > > the >>> > > quotes in the subject >>> > > and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> > the >>> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> > the >>> > > quotes in the subject >>> > > and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> > the >>> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> > the >>> > > quotes in the subject >>> > > and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------- >>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------- >>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Lou, The "Registo Genealogico De Familias Que Passaram A Madeira by Luiz Peter Clode can be ordered and viewed at your local Family History Center of LDS, the film number is 1183626 Item #5. I thought this publication was online, but I couldn't find it today. Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2009 9:53:41 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION Lou, Clode, HHN and Felisberto were available on-line, on the NESOS site. We are all waiting for that site to re-open. It had ALL the books ever published about Madeira. Elucidário Madeirense was on line on Alberto Vieira's site. I think. I have a copy of the first edition. For illustrious members of madeiran families you have Clode's "Registo bio-biliográfico de Madeirenses ilustres." My grand-father has the honour of being included. (As well as in the "Elucidário"). It is a good source for genealogical data, too. Elucidário madeirense, too, reports some of the more prominent and oldest families. And it is also a genealogical source. Ir refers the parishes, the first priests. And the oldest families who settled there and the names of the places. It has mistakes, of course. And some old families are not referred. But it is a must. For the moment, though it has mistakes, omissions, etc. and is a bit ideologically biased, you could also consult Padre Nunes Pereira, Ilhas de Zargo- It was on-line, the genealogical part at least. With many of the oldest families from Madeira. At one point we all connect with at least one or some or several of these oldest families. So, Ilhas de Zargo is also a must. BTW Pe. Nunes Pereira was closely related to my family. Well, I hope I have been of some help, Best regards, Miguel On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < [email protected]> wrote: > Lou, > > I think that the best introduction to genealogy is History. To set the > families in contrast with their times and societies one should have an > historical background. > > So the first book that I suggest you and everyone to read is a book of > Portuguese History. I would recommend "The First Global Village" (How > Portugal changed the World) by Martin Page, Editorial Notícias. Maybe you > can get it by Amazon. > > "Portugal is Europe's south-western extremity washed by the Atlantic and > warmed by the Mediterranean sun. Alone among Iberia's ancient kingdoms, it > is a nation half the size of Florida, with two-thirds the population. Yet > over centuries, it has influenced the lives of the rest of us far more than > many larger and more powerful countries." > > "Martin Page provides a fresh perspective on a fascinating country. The > First Global Village is an enthralling narrative. (Peter Wise, the Financial > Times) > > > "Martin Page is full of live" (The New Yorker) > > > Once you got the general picture of Portuguese history and its action over > the whole world, as a madeiran descendant you should read something about > Madeira history. There are several Portuguese and Foreign authors who wrote > about Madeira. You can find on Alberto Vieira's site lots of books about > Madeira. The ones I have at my hand here are all Portuguese. But it would be > a necessary instrument for any madeiran descendant to constitute a small > library with books about Madeira. > > > And only then would I try to select some of the "genealogistas de > referência." A study on our own roots of course is a study of ourselves, so > genealogy ends up being a discipline of self-knowledge, and not some > snobbish activity. > > > I will come later to this matter, > > > Cheers, > > Miguel > > > > > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Miguel etal., >> With all the talk of the founding families and history of Madeira etc., >> can you suggest a reading list that will enlighten me? Also how readily >> available are the genealogical works that you all mention so often, Clode, >> HHN etc. If not available in hard copy what about on the net. Thank you >> for >> all the wonderful education and enlightenment on my ancestors. >> >> Cheers, >> Lou >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> Henriques >> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 12:11 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> >> Sebastiana appears as "Dona" Sebastiana, in the ARM - it shows she had >> some >> status as well as her husband. Try to explore the França de Andrade line. >> I >> think it's your high road and link to medieval times..Bon voyage! >> >> regards, >> >> Miguel >> >> On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> > Miguel, >> > Hope all is well with you. No I have not explored that line yet and >> yes >> > Sebastiana is the daughter of Manuel and Catarina #4. >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Lou >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: [email protected] >> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> > Henriques >> > Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 10:39 AM >> > To: [email protected] >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> > >> > Hello Lou, >> > >> > >> > The nª 4 Vicente de França de Andrada has a similar name to some Brasões >> > Teixeiras and Brasões Gouveias from S. Vicente. Have you explored his >> line? >> > Somehow he must be of the Franças and of the Andrades. >> > >> > In 4. Is it Sebastina de A. de dau. of the nº 3 ? >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Miguel >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:14 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >> > > 1. Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira (ca. 1590, marriage >> not >> > > recorded in Ribeira Brava) >> > > >> > > 2. Francisco Rodrigues Duarte + Ines Martins(1) (Ribeira Brava, >> 16 >> > > Sept >> > > 1614 – B#389, fl 153) >> > > >> > > 3. Manuel Duarte(2) + Catarina de Abreu (widow) (Ribeira Brava, >> 27 >> > Aug >> > > 1640 – B#390, fl 41) >> > > >> > > 4. Vicente de Franca de Andrade + Sebastiana de Abreu(3) (Sao >> > Vicente, >> > > 5 Feb 1670 – B#579, fl 53) >> > > >> > > 5. Vicente de Franca(4) + Maria de Sa (Sao Vicente, 3 Sept 1696 – >> > > B#556, fl 63) >> > > >> > > 6. Basilio Pestana + Josefa de Franca(5) (Serra de Agua, 13 June >> > 1735 >> > > – >> > > B#409, fl 24) >> > > >> > > 7. Francisco de Andrade(6) + Maria dos Reis (Serra de Agua, 20 >> Feb >> > > 1770 >> > > – B#409, fl 79) >> > > >> > > 8. Manuel de Andrade Silva(7) + Ana Maria (Serra de Agua, 30 Jan >> > 1815 >> > > – >> > > B#411, fl 8) >> > > >> > > 9. Manuel Pestana de Gouveia + Delfina Maria(8) (Serra de Agua, 9 >> > July >> > > 1849 – B#411, fl 110) >> > > >> > > 10. Joao de Abreu Amarelo(widower) + Delfina da Conceicao(9) Serra >> de >> > > Agua, 13 April 1891 – R#6) >> > > >> > > 11. Antonio Neves de Abreu Amarelo(10) + Carolina de Sousa da >> Camara >> > > (Ponta do Sol, 3 Feb 1916 –R#2) >> > > >> > > 12. Louis Neves Abreu(11) + Maria Pita (Lowell, Massachusetts USA, >> 9 >> > > April 1939) >> > > >> > > 13. Louis Neves Abreu Jr(12) + Pauline Alice Genest (Lowell, >> > > Massachusetts USA, 7 Sept 1959) >> > > >> > > 14. Louis Neves Abreu III(13) + Deborah Elaine Bourgeois (Lowell, >> > > Massachusetts, USA 20 Oct 1979) >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: [email protected] >> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >> > [email protected] >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:30 PM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> > > >> > > yes..it helps a lot. do u have the ancestors of ines? im also >> descendant >> > of >> > > the homem family in ribeira brava >> > > >> > > thank you >> > > >> > > leandro >> > > >> > > >> > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 1:25:11 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >> > > [email protected] writes: >> > > >> > > Leandro, >> > > Okay I see the confusion, let me explain >> > > >> > > Ines Martin's Parents are Francisco Goncalves Homem and Isabel >> Pereira >> > > (marriage not recorded in Ribeira Brava) >> > > >> > > I hope that clears up the confusion. >> > > >> > > Lou >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: [email protected] >> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >> > [email protected] >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 6:32 PM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> > > >> > > hi lou, my doubt is on the children of pedro afonso and leonor homem. >> > > >> > > im descended from their dau ines afonso married with fernao anes. But >> > pat >> > > said that you have their dau as ines martins married with francisco >> > > rodrigues duarte. im really confused about that :) >> > > >> > > leandro >> > > >> > > >> > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 12:06:49 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >> > > [email protected] writes: >> > > >> > > Leandro, >> > > I am not sure which line we are talking about here, sorry I am a >> little >> > > spun around on this one, what do you need clarified. >> > > >> > > Lou >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: [email protected] >> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >> > > [email protected] >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:58 PM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >> > > >> > > Thank you Pat >> > > >> > > Lou...can u pls clarify this line for us please? >> > > >> > > Thank you >> > > >> > > Leandro >> > > >> > > >> > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 10:54:59 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >> > > [email protected] writes: >> > > >> > > >> > > Leandro, >> > > >> > > Not sure if this is the same "person." >> > > >> > > The only Pedro Afonso (Cavaleiro) I have is married to Leonor >> Homem, >> > > with >> > > the children that I mentioned in my posting attention Miguel and >> Lou. >> > > >> > > I don't have Pedro's parents, but Leonor's parents are Joao Homem >> (de >> > > Monte Gordo) and Catarina Vaz. >> > > >> > > Hopefully Miguel and/or Paulo will be able to add to this thread. >> > > >> > > Ines Martins is Lou's ancestor... >> > > >> > > I must admit I'm more confused now than when I first started my >> > > genealogy >> > > quest many, many "moons," ago. I'm finding that what was is not >> > > now...Frustrating to say the least. >> > > >> > > I'm trying to sort out Jorge Pinto and Leonor de Atouguia da >> Costa's >> > > line...my info differs from what's in Norhonha- titulo: Pintos... >> > > Nothing >> > > consent but the state of change...;-))). >> > > >> > > Pat >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: [email protected] >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:08:24 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada >> > Pacific >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >> > > >> > > Pat, >> > > >> > > I have Pedro afonso and leonor de sousa having a daughter called >> INES >> > > AFONSO and not ines martins. also she is married to fernao anes and >> > not >> > > to francisco duarte. Are we talking about the same person on here? >> or >> > > am i mistaken? >> > > >> > > Also, Lou, can you send me on my private email [email protected] >> > > descendency list of manuel duarte and guiomar camacho please? >> > > >> > > Thank you >> > > >> > > Leandro >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27 pm >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >> > > >> > > Pat, >> > > You are correct with the marriage record, however, his baptismal >> > > record (11 Dec 1586 b#376,fl 202) as recorded by Dr. Mello, list >> his >> > > full name as Francisco Rodrigues Duarte. His line from there is as >> > > follows >> > > >> > > Parents Manuel Duarte + Guiomar Camacha Ribeira Brava Nov 26 1584 >> > > >> > > Manuel's Parents Francisco Duarte + Maria Fernandes Ribeira Brava >> May >> > > 22 1560 >> > > >> > > Guiomar's Parents Francisco Rodrigues Camacho + Catarina Pestana >> > > >> > > Does this answer your questions? >> > > >> > > >> > > Regards, >> > > Lou >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: [email protected] >> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:40 PM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >> > > >> > > Miguel, >> > > >> > > Isn't Pedro Afonso who is married to Leonor Homem one of your >> direct >> > > line ancestors? >> > > >> > > Their son Francisco Homem D'El-Rei is my direct line ancestors, and >> if >> > > my notes/memory serves me correctly Francisco's brother Fernao >> Ennes >> > is >> > > your ancestor... >> > > >> > > If the above is correct will you please share the descending order >> > from >> > > >> > > Fernao Ennes to you... >> > > >> > > >> > > Pat >> > > >> > > p.s. Lou do you have this marriage record that you referenced >> below? >> > > On the Madeira Archives listing for this marriage, the couples' >> names >> > > are Ines Martins and Francisco Rodrigues...where did you get the >> > Duarte >> > > name from? >> > > >> > > >Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is >> > > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco >> > > Rodrigues Duarte on >16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) >> > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" < >> [email protected] >> > > >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:43:30 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada >> > Pacific >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> > > >> > > Lou, >> > > >> > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever >> be. >> > > For us >> > > living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally >> expected >> > > names >> > > from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if not >> all >> > > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many >> people. >> > > >> > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from >> > the >> > > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also >> have >> > > Homens >> > > from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know >> > > there >> > > are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de Sousa, >> > Homem >> > > de >> > > Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at all, >> > > because a >> > > simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). >> > > >> > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken >> > > from >> > > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a >> very >> > > ancient Portuguese family. >> > > >> > > >> > > Well, I hope I was of some help, >> > > >> > > Best regards, >> > > >> > > Miguel >> > > >> > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his >> marriage >> > > to >> > > Maria Lopes? >> > > >> > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo >> > as >> > > ascendant. >> > > >> > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected] >> > >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > Miguel >> > > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn >> mode >> > > and >> > > > have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. >> > > > >> > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he >> is >> > > > mentioned >> > > > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues >> Duarte >> > > on 16 >> > > > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) >> > > > >> > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter >> > Maria >> > > Lopes >> > > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book >> #454, >> > fl >> > > 81) >> > > > >> > > > Regards, >> > > > Lou >> > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > From: [email protected] >> > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de >> > > Castro >> > > > Henriques >> > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM >> > > > To: [email protected] >> > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> > > > >> > > > Hello Lu, >> > > > >> > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean >> > > typical >> > > > names from these times. >> > > > >> > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? >> > > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any >> > > Drummond >> > > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or >> > > daughter ? >> > > > >> > > > Regards, >> > > > >> > > > Miguel >> > > > >> > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III < >> > [email protected]> >> > > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > All, >> > > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am >> sending >> > > them >> > > > out >> > > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or >> hints >> > are >> > > > > appreciated. >> > > > > >> > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar >> de >> > > Baixo >> > > > > >> > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded >> > > > > >> > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to >> 1568 >> > > > > >> > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded >> > > > > >> > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 >> > > > > >> > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 >> > > > > >> > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 >> > > > > >> > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 >> > > > > >> > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco >> > > > > >> > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 >> > > > > >> > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is >> welcomed. >> > > > > >> > > > > Lou >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------- >> > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > > without the >> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > without >> > > the >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > without >> > > the >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > > the >> > > quotes in the subject >> > > and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > > the >> > > quotes in the subject >> > > and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > the >> > > quotes in the subject >> > > and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > the >> > > quotes in the subject >> > > and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Lou, Clode, HHN and Felisberto were available on-line, on the NESOS site. We are all waiting for that site to re-open. It had ALL the books ever published about Madeira. Elucidário Madeirense was on line on Alberto Vieira's site. I think. I have a copy of the first edition. For illustrious members of madeiran families you have Clode's "Registo bio-biliográfico de Madeirenses ilustres." My grand-father has the honour of being included. (As well as in the "Elucidário"). It is a good source for genealogical data, too. Elucidário madeirense, too, reports some of the more prominent and oldest families. And it is also a genealogical source. Ir refers the parishes, the first priests. And the oldest families who settled there and the names of the places. It has mistakes, of course. And some old families are not referred. But it is a must. For the moment, though it has mistakes, omissions, etc. and is a bit ideologically biased, you could also consult Padre Nunes Pereira, Ilhas de Zargo- It was on-line, the genealogical part at least. With many of the oldest families from Madeira. At one point we all connect with at least one or some or several of these oldest families. So, Ilhas de Zargo is also a must. BTW Pe. Nunes Pereira was closely related to my family. Well, I hope I have been of some help, Best regards, Miguel On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < [email protected]> wrote: > Lou, > > I think that the best introduction to genealogy is History. To set the > families in contrast with their times and societies one should have an > historical background. > > So the first book that I suggest you and everyone to read is a book of > Portuguese History. I would recommend "The First Global Village" (How > Portugal changed the World) by Martin Page, Editorial Notícias. Maybe you > can get it by Amazon. > > "Portugal is Europe's south-western extremity washed by the Atlantic and > warmed by the Mediterranean sun. Alone among Iberia's ancient kingdoms, it > is a nation half the size of Florida, with two-thirds the population. Yet > over centuries, it has influenced the lives of the rest of us far more than > many larger and more powerful countries." > > "Martin Page provides a fresh perspective on a fascinating country. The > First Global Village is an enthralling narrative. (Peter Wise, the Financial > Times) > > > "Martin Page is full of live" (The New Yorker) > > > Once you got the general picture of Portuguese history and its action over > the whole world, as a madeiran descendant you should read something about > Madeira history. There are several Portuguese and Foreign authors who wrote > about Madeira. You can find on Alberto Vieira's site lots of books about > Madeira. The ones I have at my hand here are all Portuguese. But it would be > a necessary instrument for any madeiran descendant to constitute a small > library with books about Madeira. > > > And only then would I try to select some of the "genealogistas de > referência." A study on our own roots of course is a study of ourselves, so > genealogy ends up being a discipline of self-knowledge, and not some > snobbish activity. > > > I will come later to this matter, > > > Cheers, > > Miguel > > > > > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Miguel etal., >> With all the talk of the founding families and history of Madeira etc., >> can you suggest a reading list that will enlighten me? Also how readily >> available are the genealogical works that you all mention so often, Clode, >> HHN etc. If not available in hard copy what about on the net. Thank you >> for >> all the wonderful education and enlightenment on my ancestors. >> >> Cheers, >> Lou >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> Henriques >> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 12:11 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> >> Sebastiana appears as "Dona" Sebastiana, in the ARM - it shows she had >> some >> status as well as her husband. Try to explore the França de Andrade line. >> I >> think it's your high road and link to medieval times..Bon voyage! >> >> regards, >> >> Miguel >> >> On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> > Miguel, >> > Hope all is well with you. No I have not explored that line yet and >> yes >> > Sebastiana is the daughter of Manuel and Catarina #4. >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Lou >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: [email protected] >> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> > Henriques >> > Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 10:39 AM >> > To: [email protected] >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> > >> > Hello Lou, >> > >> > >> > The nª 4 Vicente de França de Andrada has a similar name to some Brasões >> > Teixeiras and Brasões Gouveias from S. Vicente. Have you explored his >> line? >> > Somehow he must be of the Franças and of the Andrades. >> > >> > In 4. Is it Sebastina de A. de dau. of the nº 3 ? >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Miguel >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:14 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >> > > 1. Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira (ca. 1590, marriage >> not >> > > recorded in Ribeira Brava) >> > > >> > > 2. Francisco Rodrigues Duarte + Ines Martins(1) (Ribeira Brava, >> 16 >> > > Sept >> > > 1614 – B#389, fl 153) >> > > >> > > 3. Manuel Duarte(2) + Catarina de Abreu (widow) (Ribeira Brava, >> 27 >> > Aug >> > > 1640 – B#390, fl 41) >> > > >> > > 4. Vicente de Franca de Andrade + Sebastiana de Abreu(3) (Sao >> > Vicente, >> > > 5 Feb 1670 – B#579, fl 53) >> > > >> > > 5. Vicente de Franca(4) + Maria de Sa (Sao Vicente, 3 Sept 1696 – >> > > B#556, fl 63) >> > > >> > > 6. Basilio Pestana + Josefa de Franca(5) (Serra de Agua, 13 June >> > 1735 >> > > – >> > > B#409, fl 24) >> > > >> > > 7. Francisco de Andrade(6) + Maria dos Reis (Serra de Agua, 20 >> Feb >> > > 1770 >> > > – B#409, fl 79) >> > > >> > > 8. Manuel de Andrade Silva(7) + Ana Maria (Serra de Agua, 30 Jan >> > 1815 >> > > – >> > > B#411, fl 8) >> > > >> > > 9. Manuel Pestana de Gouveia + Delfina Maria(8) (Serra de Agua, 9 >> > July >> > > 1849 – B#411, fl 110) >> > > >> > > 10. Joao de Abreu Amarelo(widower) + Delfina da Conceicao(9) Serra >> de >> > > Agua, 13 April 1891 – R#6) >> > > >> > > 11. Antonio Neves de Abreu Amarelo(10) + Carolina de Sousa da >> Camara >> > > (Ponta do Sol, 3 Feb 1916 –R#2) >> > > >> > > 12. Louis Neves Abreu(11) + Maria Pita (Lowell, Massachusetts USA, >> 9 >> > > April 1939) >> > > >> > > 13. Louis Neves Abreu Jr(12) + Pauline Alice Genest (Lowell, >> > > Massachusetts USA, 7 Sept 1959) >> > > >> > > 14. Louis Neves Abreu III(13) + Deborah Elaine Bourgeois (Lowell, >> > > Massachusetts, USA 20 Oct 1979) >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: [email protected] >> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >> > [email protected] >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:30 PM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> > > >> > > yes..it helps a lot. do u have the ancestors of ines? im also >> descendant >> > of >> > > the homem family in ribeira brava >> > > >> > > thank you >> > > >> > > leandro >> > > >> > > >> > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 1:25:11 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >> > > [email protected] writes: >> > > >> > > Leandro, >> > > Okay I see the confusion, let me explain >> > > >> > > Ines Martin's Parents are Francisco Goncalves Homem and Isabel >> Pereira >> > > (marriage not recorded in Ribeira Brava) >> > > >> > > I hope that clears up the confusion. >> > > >> > > Lou >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: [email protected] >> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >> > [email protected] >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 6:32 PM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> > > >> > > hi lou, my doubt is on the children of pedro afonso and leonor homem. >> > > >> > > im descended from their dau ines afonso married with fernao anes. But >> > pat >> > > said that you have their dau as ines martins married with francisco >> > > rodrigues duarte. im really confused about that :) >> > > >> > > leandro >> > > >> > > >> > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 12:06:49 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >> > > [email protected] writes: >> > > >> > > Leandro, >> > > I am not sure which line we are talking about here, sorry I am a >> little >> > > spun around on this one, what do you need clarified. >> > > >> > > Lou >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: [email protected] >> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >> > > [email protected] >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:58 PM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >> > > >> > > Thank you Pat >> > > >> > > Lou...can u pls clarify this line for us please? >> > > >> > > Thank you >> > > >> > > Leandro >> > > >> > > >> > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 10:54:59 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >> > > [email protected] writes: >> > > >> > > >> > > Leandro, >> > > >> > > Not sure if this is the same "person." >> > > >> > > The only Pedro Afonso (Cavaleiro) I have is married to Leonor >> Homem, >> > > with >> > > the children that I mentioned in my posting attention Miguel and >> Lou. >> > > >> > > I don't have Pedro's parents, but Leonor's parents are Joao Homem >> (de >> > > Monte Gordo) and Catarina Vaz. >> > > >> > > Hopefully Miguel and/or Paulo will be able to add to this thread. >> > > >> > > Ines Martins is Lou's ancestor... >> > > >> > > I must admit I'm more confused now than when I first started my >> > > genealogy >> > > quest many, many "moons," ago. I'm finding that what was is not >> > > now...Frustrating to say the least. >> > > >> > > I'm trying to sort out Jorge Pinto and Leonor de Atouguia da >> Costa's >> > > line...my info differs from what's in Norhonha- titulo: Pintos... >> > > Nothing >> > > consent but the state of change...;-))). >> > > >> > > Pat >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: [email protected] >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:08:24 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada >> > Pacific >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >> > > >> > > Pat, >> > > >> > > I have Pedro afonso and leonor de sousa having a daughter called >> INES >> > > AFONSO and not ines martins. also she is married to fernao anes and >> > not >> > > to francisco duarte. Are we talking about the same person on here? >> or >> > > am i mistaken? >> > > >> > > Also, Lou, can you send me on my private email [email protected] >> > > descendency list of manuel duarte and guiomar camacho please? >> > > >> > > Thank you >> > > >> > > Leandro >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27 pm >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >> > > >> > > Pat, >> > > You are correct with the marriage record, however, his baptismal >> > > record (11 Dec 1586 b#376,fl 202) as recorded by Dr. Mello, list >> his >> > > full name as Francisco Rodrigues Duarte. His line from there is as >> > > follows >> > > >> > > Parents Manuel Duarte + Guiomar Camacha Ribeira Brava Nov 26 1584 >> > > >> > > Manuel's Parents Francisco Duarte + Maria Fernandes Ribeira Brava >> May >> > > 22 1560 >> > > >> > > Guiomar's Parents Francisco Rodrigues Camacho + Catarina Pestana >> > > >> > > Does this answer your questions? >> > > >> > > >> > > Regards, >> > > Lou >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: [email protected] >> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:40 PM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >> > > >> > > Miguel, >> > > >> > > Isn't Pedro Afonso who is married to Leonor Homem one of your >> direct >> > > line ancestors? >> > > >> > > Their son Francisco Homem D'El-Rei is my direct line ancestors, and >> if >> > > my notes/memory serves me correctly Francisco's brother Fernao >> Ennes >> > is >> > > your ancestor... >> > > >> > > If the above is correct will you please share the descending order >> > from >> > > >> > > Fernao Ennes to you... >> > > >> > > >> > > Pat >> > > >> > > p.s. Lou do you have this marriage record that you referenced >> below? >> > > On the Madeira Archives listing for this marriage, the couples' >> names >> > > are Ines Martins and Francisco Rodrigues...where did you get the >> > Duarte >> > > name from? >> > > >> > > >Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is >> > > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco >> > > Rodrigues Duarte on >16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) >> > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" < >> [email protected] >> > > >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:43:30 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada >> > Pacific >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> > > >> > > Lou, >> > > >> > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever >> be. >> > > For us >> > > living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally >> expected >> > > names >> > > from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if not >> all >> > > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many >> people. >> > > >> > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from >> > the >> > > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also >> have >> > > Homens >> > > from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know >> > > there >> > > are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de Sousa, >> > Homem >> > > de >> > > Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at all, >> > > because a >> > > simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). >> > > >> > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken >> > > from >> > > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a >> very >> > > ancient Portuguese family. >> > > >> > > >> > > Well, I hope I was of some help, >> > > >> > > Best regards, >> > > >> > > Miguel >> > > >> > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his >> marriage >> > > to >> > > Maria Lopes? >> > > >> > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo >> > as >> > > ascendant. >> > > >> > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected] >> > >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > Miguel >> > > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn >> mode >> > > and >> > > > have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. >> > > > >> > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he >> is >> > > > mentioned >> > > > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues >> Duarte >> > > on 16 >> > > > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) >> > > > >> > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter >> > Maria >> > > Lopes >> > > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book >> #454, >> > fl >> > > 81) >> > > > >> > > > Regards, >> > > > Lou >> > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > From: [email protected] >> > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de >> > > Castro >> > > > Henriques >> > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM >> > > > To: [email protected] >> > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> > > > >> > > > Hello Lu, >> > > > >> > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean >> > > typical >> > > > names from these times. >> > > > >> > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? >> > > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any >> > > Drummond >> > > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or >> > > daughter ? >> > > > >> > > > Regards, >> > > > >> > > > Miguel >> > > > >> > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III < >> > [email protected]> >> > > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > All, >> > > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am >> sending >> > > them >> > > > out >> > > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or >> hints >> > are >> > > > > appreciated. >> > > > > >> > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar >> de >> > > Baixo >> > > > > >> > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded >> > > > > >> > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to >> 1568 >> > > > > >> > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded >> > > > > >> > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 >> > > > > >> > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 >> > > > > >> > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 >> > > > > >> > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 >> > > > > >> > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco >> > > > > >> > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 >> > > > > >> > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is >> welcomed. >> > > > > >> > > > > Lou >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------- >> > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > > without the >> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > without >> > > the >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > without >> > > the >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > > the >> > > quotes in the subject >> > > and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > > the >> > > quotes in the subject >> > > and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > the >> > > quotes in the subject >> > > and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > the >> > > quotes in the subject >> > > and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >

Lou, I think that the best introduction to genealogy is History. To set the families in contrast with their times and societies one should have an historical background. So the first book that I suggest you and everyone to read is a book of Portuguese History. I would recommend "The First Global Village" (How Portugal changed the World) by Martin Page, Editorial Notícias. Maybe you can get it by Amazon. "Portugal is Europe's south-western extremity washed by the Atlantic and warmed by the Mediterranean sun. Alone among Iberia's ancient kingdoms, it is a nation half the size of Florida, with two-thirds the population. Yet over centuries, it has influenced the lives of the rest of us far more than many larger and more powerful countries." "Martin Page provides a fresh perspective on a fascinating country. The First Global Village is an enthralling narrative. (Peter Wise, the Financial Times) "Martin Page is full of live" (The New Yorker) Once you got the general picture of Portuguese history and its action over the whole world, as a madeiran descendant you should read something about Madeira history. There are several Portuguese and Foreign authors who wrote about Madeira. You can find on Alberto Vieira's site lots of books about Madeira. The ones I have at my hand here are all Portuguese. But it would be a necessary instrument for any madeiran descendant to constitute a small library with books about Madeira. And only then would I try to select some of the "genealogistas de referência." A study on our own roots of course is a study of ourselves, so genealogy ends up being a discipline of self-knowledge, and not some snobbish activity. I will come later to this matter, Cheers, Miguel On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> wrote: > Miguel etal., > With all the talk of the founding families and history of Madeira etc., > can you suggest a reading list that will enlighten me? Also how readily > available are the genealogical works that you all mention so often, Clode, > HHN etc. If not available in hard copy what about on the net. Thank you > for > all the wonderful education and enlightenment on my ancestors. > > Cheers, > Lou > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 12:11 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > Sebastiana appears as "Dona" Sebastiana, in the ARM - it shows she had some > status as well as her husband. Try to explore the França de Andrade line. I > think it's your high road and link to medieval times..Bon voyage! > > regards, > > Miguel > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel, > > Hope all is well with you. No I have not explored that line yet and yes > > Sebastiana is the daughter of Manuel and Catarina #4. > > > > Cheers, > > Lou > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 10:39 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > Hello Lou, > > > > > > The nª 4 Vicente de França de Andrada has a similar name to some Brasões > > Teixeiras and Brasões Gouveias from S. Vicente. Have you explored his > line? > > Somehow he must be of the Franças and of the Andrades. > > > > In 4. Is it Sebastina de A. de dau. of the nº 3 ? > > > > Regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:14 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > 1. Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira (ca. 1590, marriage > not > > > recorded in Ribeira Brava) > > > > > > 2. Francisco Rodrigues Duarte + Ines Martins(1) (Ribeira Brava, 16 > > > Sept > > > 1614 – B#389, fl 153) > > > > > > 3. Manuel Duarte(2) + Catarina de Abreu (widow) (Ribeira Brava, 27 > > Aug > > > 1640 – B#390, fl 41) > > > > > > 4. Vicente de Franca de Andrade + Sebastiana de Abreu(3) (Sao > > Vicente, > > > 5 Feb 1670 – B#579, fl 53) > > > > > > 5. Vicente de Franca(4) + Maria de Sa (Sao Vicente, 3 Sept 1696 – > > > B#556, fl 63) > > > > > > 6. Basilio Pestana + Josefa de Franca(5) (Serra de Agua, 13 June > > 1735 > > > – > > > B#409, fl 24) > > > > > > 7. Francisco de Andrade(6) + Maria dos Reis (Serra de Agua, 20 Feb > > > 1770 > > > – B#409, fl 79) > > > > > > 8. Manuel de Andrade Silva(7) + Ana Maria (Serra de Agua, 30 Jan > > 1815 > > > – > > > B#411, fl 8) > > > > > > 9. Manuel Pestana de Gouveia + Delfina Maria(8) (Serra de Agua, 9 > > July > > > 1849 – B#411, fl 110) > > > > > > 10. Joao de Abreu Amarelo(widower) + Delfina da Conceicao(9) Serra > de > > > Agua, 13 April 1891 – R#6) > > > > > > 11. Antonio Neves de Abreu Amarelo(10) + Carolina de Sousa da > Camara > > > (Ponta do Sol, 3 Feb 1916 –R#2) > > > > > > 12. Louis Neves Abreu(11) + Maria Pita (Lowell, Massachusetts USA, > 9 > > > April 1939) > > > > > > 13. Louis Neves Abreu Jr(12) + Pauline Alice Genest (Lowell, > > > Massachusetts USA, 7 Sept 1959) > > > > > > 14. Louis Neves Abreu III(13) + Deborah Elaine Bourgeois (Lowell, > > > Massachusetts, USA 20 Oct 1979) > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > [email protected] > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:30 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > yes..it helps a lot. do u have the ancestors of ines? im also > descendant > > of > > > the homem family in ribeira brava > > > > > > thank you > > > > > > leandro > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 1:25:11 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > Leandro, > > > Okay I see the confusion, let me explain > > > > > > Ines Martin's Parents are Francisco Goncalves Homem and Isabel Pereira > > > (marriage not recorded in Ribeira Brava) > > > > > > I hope that clears up the confusion. > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > [email protected] > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 6:32 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > hi lou, my doubt is on the children of pedro afonso and leonor homem. > > > > > > im descended from their dau ines afonso married with fernao anes. But > > pat > > > said that you have their dau as ines martins married with francisco > > > rodrigues duarte. im really confused about that :) > > > > > > leandro > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 12:06:49 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > Leandro, > > > I am not sure which line we are talking about here, sorry I am a > little > > > spun around on this one, what do you need clarified. > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > [email protected] > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:58 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > Thank you Pat > > > > > > Lou...can u pls clarify this line for us please? > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > Leandro > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 10:54:59 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > > > Not sure if this is the same "person." > > > > > > The only Pedro Afonso (Cavaleiro) I have is married to Leonor Homem, > > > with > > > the children that I mentioned in my posting attention Miguel and > Lou. > > > > > > I don't have Pedro's parents, but Leonor's parents are Joao Homem > (de > > > Monte Gordo) and Catarina Vaz. > > > > > > Hopefully Miguel and/or Paulo will be able to add to this thread. > > > > > > Ines Martins is Lou's ancestor... > > > > > > I must admit I'm more confused now than when I first started my > > > genealogy > > > quest many, many "moons," ago. I'm finding that what was is not > > > now...Frustrating to say the least. > > > > > > I'm trying to sort out Jorge Pinto and Leonor de Atouguia da Costa's > > > line...my info differs from what's in Norhonha- titulo: Pintos... > > > Nothing > > > consent but the state of change...;-))). > > > > > > Pat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:08:24 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada > > Pacific > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > Pat, > > > > > > I have Pedro afonso and leonor de sousa having a daughter called > INES > > > AFONSO and not ines martins. also she is married to fernao anes and > > not > > > to francisco duarte. Are we talking about the same person on here? > or > > > am i mistaken? > > > > > > Also, Lou, can you send me on my private email [email protected] > > > descendency list of manuel duarte and guiomar camacho please? > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > Leandro > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27 pm > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > Pat, > > > You are correct with the marriage record, however, his baptismal > > > record (11 Dec 1586 b#376,fl 202) as recorded by Dr. Mello, list his > > > full name as Francisco Rodrigues Duarte. His line from there is as > > > follows > > > > > > Parents Manuel Duarte + Guiomar Camacha Ribeira Brava Nov 26 1584 > > > > > > Manuel's Parents Francisco Duarte + Maria Fernandes Ribeira Brava > May > > > 22 1560 > > > > > > Guiomar's Parents Francisco Rodrigues Camacho + Catarina Pestana > > > > > > Does this answer your questions? > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Lou > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera > > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:40 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > > > Miguel, > > > > > > Isn't Pedro Afonso who is married to Leonor Homem one of your direct > > > line ancestors? > > > > > > Their son Francisco Homem D'El-Rei is my direct line ancestors, and > if > > > my notes/memory serves me correctly Francisco's brother Fernao Ennes > > is > > > your ancestor... > > > > > > If the above is correct will you please share the descending order > > from > > > > > > Fernao Ennes to you... > > > > > > > > > Pat > > > > > > p.s. Lou do you have this marriage record that you referenced below? > > > On the Madeira Archives listing for this marriage, the couples' > names > > > are Ines Martins and Francisco Rodrigues...where did you get the > > Duarte > > > name from? > > > > > > >Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is > > > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco > > > Rodrigues Duarte on >16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" < > [email protected] > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:43:30 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada > > Pacific > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > Lou, > > > > > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever > be. > > > For us > > > living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally > expected > > > names > > > from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if not > all > > > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many people. > > > > > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from > > the > > > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also > have > > > Homens > > > from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know > > > there > > > are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de Sousa, > > Homem > > > de > > > Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at all, > > > because a > > > simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). > > > > > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken > > > from > > > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a > very > > > ancient Portuguese family. > > > > > > > > > Well, I hope I was of some help, > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his > marriage > > > to > > > Maria Lopes? > > > > > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo > > as > > > ascendant. > > > > > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn > mode > > > and > > > > have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is > > > > mentioned > > > > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues > Duarte > > > on 16 > > > > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > > > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter > > Maria > > > Lopes > > > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book #454, > > fl > > > 81) > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > > Castro > > > > Henriques > > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > > > Hello Lu, > > > > > > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean > > > typical > > > > names from these times. > > > > > > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > > > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any > > > Drummond > > > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or > > > daughter ? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III < > > [email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All, > > > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am > sending > > > them > > > > out > > > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or hints > > are > > > > > appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar > de > > > Baixo > > > > > > > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > > > > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > > > > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > > > > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > > > > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > > > > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > > > > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is > welcomed. > > > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > > the > > > quotes in the subject > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the > > > quotes in the subject > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > quotes in the subject > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > quotes in the subject > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Pat thanks for the informaiton. I guess I will do my best and start to learn what I should have many years ago. Don L ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Corbera" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > Don, > The publication that I noted, that's on film at LDS is in Portuguese. > > Before I started my research journey I could not read Portuguese, nor > speak it, let alone write it, but with the help of an > English-Portuguese/Portuguese-English Dictionary, the reading task became > easier. > > I do understand the spoken Portuguese, but I'm still working on my > conversational and written skills that I so badly lack. > > Do you speak/understand the spoken Portuguese? > > If you get "stumped," just post to this list group, so many helpful > individuals, so willing to help... > > Pat > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2009 11:20:42 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > Are any of these publications mentioned transcribed into English? > Tthat would be of great importance, when one can not read Portuguese. > Thanks, Don L > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "deepsea06" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:51 PM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > Miguel and Pat, > Thank you so much for pointing me in the right direction. Beleive > it or not I have been working on this genealogy since 1985, both on > the Madeiran side and the Canadian side, it has been a journey and one > which I have enjoyed immensely, especially for the people I have come > to know along the way. Now begins my journey in understanding the > foundations from whence these people came. > > Cheers, > Lou > > On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Pat Corbera <[email protected]> > wrote: >> Lou, >> >> The "Registo Genealogico De Familias Que Passaram A Madeira by Luiz Peter >> Clode can be ordered and viewed at your local Family History Center of >> LDS, the film number is >> 1183626 Item #5. >> >> I thought this publication was online, but I couldn't find it today. >> >> Pat >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2009 9:53:41 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >> >> Lou, >> >> Clode, HHN and Felisberto were available on-line, on the NESOS site. We >> are >> all waiting for that site to re-open. It had ALL the books ever published >> about Madeira. >> Elucidário Madeirense was on line on Alberto Vieira's site. I think. I >> have >> a copy of the first edition. >> >> For illustrious members of madeiran families you have Clode's "Registo >> bio-biliográfico de Madeirenses ilustres." My grand-father has the honour >> of >> being included. (As well as in the "Elucidário"). It is a good source for >> genealogical data, too. >> >> Elucidário madeirense, too, reports some of the more prominent and oldest >> families. And it is also a genealogical source. Ir refers the parishes, >> the >> first priests. And the oldest families who settled there and the names of >> the places. >> >> It has mistakes, of course. And some old families are not referred. But >> it >> is a must. >> >> For the moment, though it has mistakes, omissions, etc. and is a bit >> ideologically biased, you could also consult Padre Nunes Pereira, Ilhas >> de >> Zargo- It was on-line, the genealogical part at least. With many of the >> oldest families from Madeira. >> At one point we all connect with at least one or some or several of these >> oldest families. >> So, Ilhas de Zargo is also a must. >> >> BTW Pe. Nunes Pereira was closely related to my family. >> >> Well, I hope I have been of some help, >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Miguel >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Lou, >>> >>> I think that the best introduction to genealogy is History. To set the >>> families in contrast with their times and societies one should have an >>> historical background. >>> >>> So the first book that I suggest you and everyone to read is a book of >>> Portuguese History. I would recommend "The First Global Village" (How >>> Portugal changed the World) by Martin Page, Editorial Notícias. Maybe >>> you >>> can get it by Amazon. >>> >>> "Portugal is Europe's south-western extremity washed by the Atlantic and >>> warmed by the Mediterranean sun. Alone among Iberia's ancient kingdoms, >>> it >>> is a nation half the size of Florida, with two-thirds the population. >>> Yet >>> over centuries, it has influenced the lives of the rest of us far more >>> than >>> many larger and more powerful countries." >>> >>> "Martin Page provides a fresh perspective on a fascinating country. The >>> First Global Village is an enthralling narrative. (Peter Wise, the >>> Financial >>> Times) >>> >>> >>> "Martin Page is full of live" (The New Yorker) >>> >>> >>> Once you got the general picture of Portuguese history and its action >>> over >>> the whole world, as a madeiran descendant you should read something >>> about >>> Madeira history. There are several Portuguese and Foreign authors who >>> wrote >>> about Madeira. You can find on Alberto Vieira's site lots of books about >>> Madeira. The ones I have at my hand here are all Portuguese. But it >>> would >>> be >>> a necessary instrument for any madeiran descendant to constitute a small >>> library with books about Madeira. >>> >>> >>> And only then would I try to select some of the "genealogistas de >>> referência." A study on our own roots of course is a study of ourselves, >>> so >>> genealogy ends up being a discipline of self-knowledge, and not some >>> snobbish activity. >>> >>> >>> I will come later to this matter, >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Miguel >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Miguel etal., >>>> With all the talk of the founding families and history of Madeira etc., >>>> can you suggest a reading list that will enlighten me? Also how readily >>>> available are the genealogical works that you all mention so often, >>>> Clode, >>>> HHN etc. If not available in hard copy what about on the net. Thank you >>>> for >>>> all the wonderful education and enlightenment on my ancestors. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Lou >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [email protected] >>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >>>> Henriques >>>> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 12:11 PM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>>> >>>> Sebastiana appears as "Dona" Sebastiana, in the ARM - it shows she had >>>> some >>>> status as well as her husband. Try to explore the França de Andrade >>>> line. >>>> I >>>> think it's your high road and link to medieval times..Bon voyage! >>>> >>>> regards, >>>> >>>> Miguel >>>> >>>> On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Miguel, >>>> > Hope all is well with you. No I have not explored that line yet and >>>> yes >>>> > Sebastiana is the daughter of Manuel and Catarina #4. >>>> > >>>> > Cheers, >>>> > Lou >>>> > >>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>> > From: [email protected] >>>> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de >>>> > Castro >>>> > Henriques >>>> > Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 10:39 AM >>>> > To: [email protected] >>>> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>>> > >>>> > Hello Lou, >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > The nª 4 Vicente de França de Andrada has a similar name to some >>>> > Brasões >>>> > Teixeiras and Brasões Gouveias from S. Vicente. Have you explored his >>>> line? >>>> > Somehow he must be of the Franças and of the Andrades. >>>> > >>>> > In 4. Is it Sebastina de A. de dau. of the nº 3 ? >>>> > >>>> > Regards, >>>> > >>>> > Miguel >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:14 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > > 1. Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira (ca. 1590, marriage >>>> not >>>> > > recorded in Ribeira Brava) >>>> > > >>>> > > 2. Francisco Rodrigues Duarte + Ines Martins(1) (Ribeira Brava, >>>> 16 >>>> > > Sept >>>> > > 1614 – B#389, fl 153) >>>> > > >>>> > > 3. Manuel Duarte(2) + Catarina de Abreu (widow) (Ribeira Brava, >>>> 27 >>>> > Aug >>>> > > 1640 – B#390, fl 41) >>>> > > >>>> > > 4. Vicente de Franca de Andrade + Sebastiana de Abreu(3) (Sao >>>> > Vicente, >>>> > > 5 Feb 1670 – B#579, fl 53) >>>> > > >>>> > > 5. Vicente de Franca(4) + Maria de Sa (Sao Vicente, 3 Sept 1696 – >>>> > > B#556, fl 63) >>>> > > >>>> > > 6. Basilio Pestana + Josefa de Franca(5) (Serra de Agua, 13 June >>>> > 1735 >>>> > > – >>>> > > B#409, fl 24) >>>> > > >>>> > > 7. Francisco de Andrade(6) + Maria dos Reis (Serra de Agua, 20 >>>> Feb >>>> > > 1770 >>>> > > – B#409, fl 79) >>>> > > >>>> > > 8. Manuel de Andrade Silva(7) + Ana Maria (Serra de Agua, 30 Jan >>>> > 1815 >>>> > > – >>>> > > B#411, fl 8) >>>> > > >>>> > > 9. Manuel Pestana de Gouveia + Delfina Maria(8) (Serra de Agua, 9 >>>> > July >>>> > > 1849 – B#411, fl 110) >>>> > > >>>> > > 10. Joao de Abreu Amarelo(widower) + Delfina da Conceicao(9) Serra >>>> de >>>> > > Agua, 13 April 1891 – R#6) >>>> > > >>>> > > 11. Antonio Neves de Abreu Amarelo(10) + Carolina de Sousa da >>>> Camara >>>> > > (Ponta do Sol, 3 Feb 1916 –R#2) >>>> > > >>>> > > 12. Louis Neves Abreu(11) + Maria Pita (Lowell, Massachusetts USA, >>>> 9 >>>> > > April 1939) >>>> > > >>>> > > 13. Louis Neves Abreu Jr(12) + Pauline Alice Genest (Lowell, >>>> > > Massachusetts USA, 7 Sept 1959) >>>> > > >>>> > > 14. Louis Neves Abreu III(13) + Deborah Elaine Bourgeois (Lowell, >>>> > > Massachusetts, USA 20 Oct 1979) >>>> > > >>>> > > -----Original Message----- >>>> > > From: [email protected] >>>> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >>>> > [email protected] >>>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:30 PM >>>> > > To: [email protected] >>>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>>> > > >>>> > > yes..it helps a lot. do u have the ancestors of ines? im also >>>> descendant >>>> > of >>>> > > the homem family in ribeira brava >>>> > > >>>> > > thank you >>>> > > >>>> > > leandro >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 1:25:11 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >>>> > > [email protected] writes: >>>> > > >>>> > > Leandro, >>>> > > Okay I see the confusion, let me explain >>>> > > >>>> > > Ines Martin's Parents are Francisco Goncalves Homem and Isabel >>>> Pereira >>>> > > (marriage not recorded in Ribeira Brava) >>>> > > >>>> > > I hope that clears up the confusion. >>>> > > >>>> > > Lou >>>> > > >>>> > > -----Original Message----- >>>> > > From: [email protected] >>>> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >>>> > [email protected] >>>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 6:32 PM >>>> > > To: [email protected] >>>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>>> > > >>>> > > hi lou, my doubt is on the children of pedro afonso and leonor >>>> > > homem. >>>> > > >>>> > > im descended from their dau ines afonso married with fernao anes. >>>> > > But >>>> > pat >>>> > > said that you have their dau as ines martins married with francisco >>>> > > rodrigues duarte. im really confused about that :) >>>> > > >>>> > > leandro >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 12:06:49 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >>>> > > [email protected] writes: >>>> > > >>>> > > Leandro, >>>> > > I am not sure which line we are talking about here, sorry I am a >>>> little >>>> > > spun around on this one, what do you need clarified. >>>> > > >>>> > > Lou >>>> > > >>>> > > -----Original Message----- >>>> > > From: [email protected] >>>> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >>>> > > [email protected] >>>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:58 PM >>>> > > To: [email protected] >>>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >>>> > > >>>> > > Thank you Pat >>>> > > >>>> > > Lou...can u pls clarify this line for us please? >>>> > > >>>> > > Thank you >>>> > > >>>> > > Leandro >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 10:54:59 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >>>> > > [email protected] writes: >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Leandro, >>>> > > >>>> > > Not sure if this is the same "person." >>>> > > >>>> > > The only Pedro Afonso (Cavaleiro) I have is married to Leonor >>>> Homem, >>>> > > with >>>> > > the children that I mentioned in my posting attention Miguel and >>>> Lou. >>>> > > >>>> > > I don't have Pedro's parents, but Leonor's parents are Joao Homem >>>> (de >>>> > > Monte Gordo) and Catarina Vaz. >>>> > > >>>> > > Hopefully Miguel and/or Paulo will be able to add to this thread. >>>> > > >>>> > > Ines Martins is Lou's ancestor... >>>> > > >>>> > > I must admit I'm more confused now than when I first started my >>>> > > genealogy >>>> > > quest many, many "moons," ago. I'm finding that what was is not >>>> > > now...Frustrating to say the least. >>>> > > >>>> > > I'm trying to sort out Jorge Pinto and Leonor de Atouguia da >>>> Costa's >>>> > > line...my info differs from what's in Norhonha- titulo: Pintos... >>>> > > Nothing >>>> > > consent but the state of change...;-))). >>>> > > >>>> > > Pat >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > > From: [email protected] >>>> > > To: [email protected] >>>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:08:24 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada >>>> > Pacific >>>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >>>> > > >>>> > > Pat, >>>> > > >>>> > > I have Pedro afonso and leonor de sousa having a daughter called >>>> INES >>>> > > AFONSO and not ines martins. also she is married to fernao anes and >>>> > not >>>> > > to francisco duarte. Are we talking about the same person on here? >>>> or >>>> > > am i mistaken? >>>> > > >>>> > > Also, Lou, can you send me on my private email >>>> > > [email protected] >>>> > > descendency list of manuel duarte and guiomar camacho please? >>>> > > >>>> > > Thank you >>>> > > >>>> > > Leandro >>>> > > >>>> > > -----Original Message----- >>>> > > From: Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >>>> > > To: [email protected] >>>> > > Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27 pm >>>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >>>> > > >>>> > > Pat, >>>> > > You are correct with the marriage record, however, his baptismal >>>> > > record (11 Dec 1586 b#376,fl 202) as recorded by Dr. Mello, list >>>> his >>>> > > full name as Francisco Rodrigues Duarte. His line from there is as >>>> > > follows >>>> > > >>>> > > Parents Manuel Duarte + Guiomar Camacha Ribeira Brava Nov 26 1584 >>>> > > >>>> > > Manuel's Parents Francisco Duarte + Maria Fernandes Ribeira Brava >>>> May >>>> > > 22 1560 >>>> > > >>>> > > Guiomar's Parents Francisco Rodrigues Camacho + Catarina Pestana >>>> > > >>>> > > Does this answer your questions? >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Regards, >>>> > > Lou >>>> > > >>>> > > -----Original Message----- >>>> > > From: [email protected] >>>> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera >>>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:40 PM >>>> > > To: [email protected] >>>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >>>> > > >>>> > > Miguel, >>>> > > >>>> > > Isn't Pedro Afonso who is married to Leonor Homem one of your >>>> direct >>>> > > line ancestors? >>>> > > >>>> > > Their son Francisco Homem D'El-Rei is my direct line ancestors, and >>>> if >>>> > > my notes/memory serves me correctly Francisco's brother Fernao >>>> Ennes >>>> > is >>>> > > your ancestor... >>>> > > >>>> > > If the above is correct will you please share the descending order >>>> > from >>>> > > >>>> > > Fernao Ennes to you... >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Pat >>>> > > >>>> > > p.s. Lou do you have this marriage record that you referenced >>>> below? >>>> > > On the Madeira Archives listing for this marriage, the couples' >>>> names >>>> > > are Ines Martins and Francisco Rodrigues...where did you get the >>>> > Duarte >>>> > > name from? >>>> > > >>>> > > >Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is >>>> > > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco >>>> > > Rodrigues Duarte on >16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) >>>> > > >>>> > > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" < >>>> [email protected] >>>> > > >>>> > > To: [email protected] >>>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:43:30 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada >>>> > Pacific >>>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>>> > > >>>> > > Lou, >>>> > > >>>> > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever >>>> be. >>>> > > For us >>>> > > living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally >>>> expected >>>> > > names >>>> > > from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if not >>>> all >>>> > > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many >>>> people. >>>> > > >>>> > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from >>>> > the >>>> > > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also >>>> have >>>> > > Homens >>>> > > from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know >>>> > > there >>>> > > are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de Sousa, >>>> > Homem >>>> > > de >>>> > > Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at all, >>>> > > because a >>>> > > simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). >>>> > > >>>> > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken >>>> > > from >>>> > > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a >>>> very >>>> > > ancient Portuguese family. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Well, I hope I was of some help, >>>> > > >>>> > > Best regards, >>>> > > >>>> > > Miguel >>>> > > >>>> > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his >>>> marriage >>>> > > to >>>> > > Maria Lopes? >>>> > > >>>> > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo >>>> > as >>>> > > ascendant. >>>> > > >>>> > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected] >>>> > >>>> > > wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > > > Miguel >>>> > > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn >>>> mode >>>> > > and >>>> > > > have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he >>>> is >>>> > > > mentioned >>>> > > > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues >>>> Duarte >>>> > > on 16 >>>> > > > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter >>>> > Maria >>>> > > Lopes >>>> > > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book >>>> #454, >>>> > fl >>>> > > 81) >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Regards, >>>> > > > Lou >>>> > > > >>>> > > > -----Original Message----- >>>> > > > From: [email protected] >>>> > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de >>>> > > Castro >>>> > > > Henriques >>>> > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM >>>> > > > To: [email protected] >>>> > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Hello Lu, >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean >>>> > > typical >>>> > > > names from these times. >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? >>>> > > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any >>>> > > Drummond >>>> > > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or >>>> > > daughter ? >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Regards, >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Miguel >>>> > > > >>>> > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III < >>>> > [email protected]> >>>> > > > wrote: >>>> > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > All, >>>> > > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am >>>> sending >>>> > > them >>>> > > > out >>>> > > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or >>>> hints >>>> > are >>>> > > > > appreciated. >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar >>>> de >>>> > > Baixo >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to >>>> 1568 >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is >>>> welcomed. >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Lou >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > > without the >>>> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > without >>>> > > the >>>> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > without >>>> > > the >>>> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without >>>> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without >>>> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > > without >>>> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without >>>> > > the >>>> > > quotes in the subject >>>> > > and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without >>>> > > the >>>> > > quotes in the subject >>>> > > and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > > without >>>> > the >>>> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > > without >>>> > the >>>> > > quotes in the subject >>>> > > and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > > without >>>> > the >>>> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > > without >>>> > the >>>> > > quotes in the subject >>>> > > and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > > without >>>> the >>>> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > ------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> > > without >>>> the >>>> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > ------------------------------- >>>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>> the >>>> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ------------------------------- >>>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>> the >>>> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> > >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>> the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>> the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Are any of these publications mentioned transcribed into English? Tthat would be of great importance, when one can not read Portuguese. Thanks, Don L ----- Original Message ----- From: "deepsea06" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:51 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION Miguel and Pat, Thank you so much for pointing me in the right direction. Beleive it or not I have been working on this genealogy since 1985, both on the Madeiran side and the Canadian side, it has been a journey and one which I have enjoyed immensely, especially for the people I have come to know along the way. Now begins my journey in understanding the foundations from whence these people came. Cheers, Lou On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Pat Corbera <[email protected]> wrote: > Lou, > > The "Registo Genealogico De Familias Que Passaram A Madeira by Luiz Peter > Clode can be ordered and viewed at your local Family History Center of > LDS, the film number is > 1183626 Item #5. > > I thought this publication was online, but I couldn't find it today. > > Pat > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2009 9:53:41 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > Lou, > > Clode, HHN and Felisberto were available on-line, on the NESOS site. We > are > all waiting for that site to re-open. It had ALL the books ever published > about Madeira. > Elucidário Madeirense was on line on Alberto Vieira's site. I think. I > have > a copy of the first edition. > > For illustrious members of madeiran families you have Clode's "Registo > bio-biliográfico de Madeirenses ilustres." My grand-father has the honour > of > being included. (As well as in the "Elucidário"). It is a good source for > genealogical data, too. > > Elucidário madeirense, too, reports some of the more prominent and oldest > families. And it is also a genealogical source. Ir refers the parishes, > the > first priests. And the oldest families who settled there and the names of > the places. > > It has mistakes, of course. And some old families are not referred. But it > is a must. > > For the moment, though it has mistakes, omissions, etc. and is a bit > ideologically biased, you could also consult Padre Nunes Pereira, Ilhas de > Zargo- It was on-line, the genealogical part at least. With many of the > oldest families from Madeira. > At one point we all connect with at least one or some or several of these > oldest families. > So, Ilhas de Zargo is also a must. > > BTW Pe. Nunes Pereira was closely related to my family. > > Well, I hope I have been of some help, > > > Best regards, > > Miguel > > > > > On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Lou, >> >> I think that the best introduction to genealogy is History. To set the >> families in contrast with their times and societies one should have an >> historical background. >> >> So the first book that I suggest you and everyone to read is a book of >> Portuguese History. I would recommend "The First Global Village" (How >> Portugal changed the World) by Martin Page, Editorial Notícias. Maybe you >> can get it by Amazon. >> >> "Portugal is Europe's south-western extremity washed by the Atlantic and >> warmed by the Mediterranean sun. Alone among Iberia's ancient kingdoms, >> it >> is a nation half the size of Florida, with two-thirds the population. Yet >> over centuries, it has influenced the lives of the rest of us far more >> than >> many larger and more powerful countries." >> >> "Martin Page provides a fresh perspective on a fascinating country. The >> First Global Village is an enthralling narrative. (Peter Wise, the >> Financial >> Times) >> >> >> "Martin Page is full of live" (The New Yorker) >> >> >> Once you got the general picture of Portuguese history and its action >> over >> the whole world, as a madeiran descendant you should read something about >> Madeira history. There are several Portuguese and Foreign authors who >> wrote >> about Madeira. You can find on Alberto Vieira's site lots of books about >> Madeira. The ones I have at my hand here are all Portuguese. But it would >> be >> a necessary instrument for any madeiran descendant to constitute a small >> library with books about Madeira. >> >> >> And only then would I try to select some of the "genealogistas de >> referência." A study on our own roots of course is a study of ourselves, >> so >> genealogy ends up being a discipline of self-knowledge, and not some >> snobbish activity. >> >> >> I will come later to this matter, >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Miguel >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Miguel etal., >>> With all the talk of the founding families and history of Madeira etc., >>> can you suggest a reading list that will enlighten me? Also how readily >>> available are the genealogical works that you all mention so often, >>> Clode, >>> HHN etc. If not available in hard copy what about on the net. Thank you >>> for >>> all the wonderful education and enlightenment on my ancestors. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Lou >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >>> Henriques >>> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 12:11 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>> >>> Sebastiana appears as "Dona" Sebastiana, in the ARM - it shows she had >>> some >>> status as well as her husband. Try to explore the França de Andrade >>> line. >>> I >>> think it's your high road and link to medieval times..Bon voyage! >>> >>> regards, >>> >>> Miguel >>> >>> On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Miguel, >>> > Hope all is well with you. No I have not explored that line yet and >>> yes >>> > Sebastiana is the daughter of Manuel and Catarina #4. >>> > >>> > Cheers, >>> > Lou >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: [email protected] >>> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de >>> > Castro >>> > Henriques >>> > Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 10:39 AM >>> > To: [email protected] >>> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>> > >>> > Hello Lou, >>> > >>> > >>> > The nª 4 Vicente de França de Andrada has a similar name to some >>> > Brasões >>> > Teixeiras and Brasões Gouveias from S. Vicente. Have you explored his >>> line? >>> > Somehow he must be of the Franças and of the Andrades. >>> > >>> > In 4. Is it Sebastina de A. de dau. of the nº 3 ? >>> > >>> > Regards, >>> > >>> > Miguel >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:14 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > > 1. Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira (ca. 1590, marriage >>> not >>> > > recorded in Ribeira Brava) >>> > > >>> > > 2. Francisco Rodrigues Duarte + Ines Martins(1) (Ribeira Brava, >>> 16 >>> > > Sept >>> > > 1614 – B#389, fl 153) >>> > > >>> > > 3. Manuel Duarte(2) + Catarina de Abreu (widow) (Ribeira Brava, >>> 27 >>> > Aug >>> > > 1640 – B#390, fl 41) >>> > > >>> > > 4. Vicente de Franca de Andrade + Sebastiana de Abreu(3) (Sao >>> > Vicente, >>> > > 5 Feb 1670 – B#579, fl 53) >>> > > >>> > > 5. Vicente de Franca(4) + Maria de Sa (Sao Vicente, 3 Sept 1696 – >>> > > B#556, fl 63) >>> > > >>> > > 6. Basilio Pestana + Josefa de Franca(5) (Serra de Agua, 13 June >>> > 1735 >>> > > – >>> > > B#409, fl 24) >>> > > >>> > > 7. Francisco de Andrade(6) + Maria dos Reis (Serra de Agua, 20 >>> Feb >>> > > 1770 >>> > > – B#409, fl 79) >>> > > >>> > > 8. Manuel de Andrade Silva(7) + Ana Maria (Serra de Agua, 30 Jan >>> > 1815 >>> > > – >>> > > B#411, fl 8) >>> > > >>> > > 9. Manuel Pestana de Gouveia + Delfina Maria(8) (Serra de Agua, 9 >>> > July >>> > > 1849 – B#411, fl 110) >>> > > >>> > > 10. Joao de Abreu Amarelo(widower) + Delfina da Conceicao(9) Serra >>> de >>> > > Agua, 13 April 1891 – R#6) >>> > > >>> > > 11. Antonio Neves de Abreu Amarelo(10) + Carolina de Sousa da >>> Camara >>> > > (Ponta do Sol, 3 Feb 1916 –R#2) >>> > > >>> > > 12. Louis Neves Abreu(11) + Maria Pita (Lowell, Massachusetts USA, >>> 9 >>> > > April 1939) >>> > > >>> > > 13. Louis Neves Abreu Jr(12) + Pauline Alice Genest (Lowell, >>> > > Massachusetts USA, 7 Sept 1959) >>> > > >>> > > 14. Louis Neves Abreu III(13) + Deborah Elaine Bourgeois (Lowell, >>> > > Massachusetts, USA 20 Oct 1979) >>> > > >>> > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > From: [email protected] >>> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >>> > [email protected] >>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:30 PM >>> > > To: [email protected] >>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>> > > >>> > > yes..it helps a lot. do u have the ancestors of ines? im also >>> descendant >>> > of >>> > > the homem family in ribeira brava >>> > > >>> > > thank you >>> > > >>> > > leandro >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 1:25:11 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >>> > > [email protected] writes: >>> > > >>> > > Leandro, >>> > > Okay I see the confusion, let me explain >>> > > >>> > > Ines Martin's Parents are Francisco Goncalves Homem and Isabel >>> Pereira >>> > > (marriage not recorded in Ribeira Brava) >>> > > >>> > > I hope that clears up the confusion. >>> > > >>> > > Lou >>> > > >>> > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > From: [email protected] >>> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >>> > [email protected] >>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 6:32 PM >>> > > To: [email protected] >>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>> > > >>> > > hi lou, my doubt is on the children of pedro afonso and leonor >>> > > homem. >>> > > >>> > > im descended from their dau ines afonso married with fernao anes. >>> > > But >>> > pat >>> > > said that you have their dau as ines martins married with francisco >>> > > rodrigues duarte. im really confused about that :) >>> > > >>> > > leandro >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 12:06:49 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >>> > > [email protected] writes: >>> > > >>> > > Leandro, >>> > > I am not sure which line we are talking about here, sorry I am a >>> little >>> > > spun around on this one, what do you need clarified. >>> > > >>> > > Lou >>> > > >>> > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > From: [email protected] >>> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >>> > > [email protected] >>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:58 PM >>> > > To: [email protected] >>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >>> > > >>> > > Thank you Pat >>> > > >>> > > Lou...can u pls clarify this line for us please? >>> > > >>> > > Thank you >>> > > >>> > > Leandro >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 10:54:59 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >>> > > [email protected] writes: >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Leandro, >>> > > >>> > > Not sure if this is the same "person." >>> > > >>> > > The only Pedro Afonso (Cavaleiro) I have is married to Leonor >>> Homem, >>> > > with >>> > > the children that I mentioned in my posting attention Miguel and >>> Lou. >>> > > >>> > > I don't have Pedro's parents, but Leonor's parents are Joao Homem >>> (de >>> > > Monte Gordo) and Catarina Vaz. >>> > > >>> > > Hopefully Miguel and/or Paulo will be able to add to this thread. >>> > > >>> > > Ines Martins is Lou's ancestor... >>> > > >>> > > I must admit I'm more confused now than when I first started my >>> > > genealogy >>> > > quest many, many "moons," ago. I'm finding that what was is not >>> > > now...Frustrating to say the least. >>> > > >>> > > I'm trying to sort out Jorge Pinto and Leonor de Atouguia da >>> Costa's >>> > > line...my info differs from what's in Norhonha- titulo: Pintos... >>> > > Nothing >>> > > consent but the state of change...;-))). >>> > > >>> > > Pat >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ----- Original Message ----- >>> > > From: [email protected] >>> > > To: [email protected] >>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:08:24 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada >>> > Pacific >>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >>> > > >>> > > Pat, >>> > > >>> > > I have Pedro afonso and leonor de sousa having a daughter called >>> INES >>> > > AFONSO and not ines martins. also she is married to fernao anes and >>> > not >>> > > to francisco duarte. Are we talking about the same person on here? >>> or >>> > > am i mistaken? >>> > > >>> > > Also, Lou, can you send me on my private email [email protected] >>> > > descendency list of manuel duarte and guiomar camacho please? >>> > > >>> > > Thank you >>> > > >>> > > Leandro >>> > > >>> > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > From: Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >>> > > To: [email protected] >>> > > Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27 pm >>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >>> > > >>> > > Pat, >>> > > You are correct with the marriage record, however, his baptismal >>> > > record (11 Dec 1586 b#376,fl 202) as recorded by Dr. Mello, list >>> his >>> > > full name as Francisco Rodrigues Duarte. His line from there is as >>> > > follows >>> > > >>> > > Parents Manuel Duarte + Guiomar Camacha Ribeira Brava Nov 26 1584 >>> > > >>> > > Manuel's Parents Francisco Duarte + Maria Fernandes Ribeira Brava >>> May >>> > > 22 1560 >>> > > >>> > > Guiomar's Parents Francisco Rodrigues Camacho + Catarina Pestana >>> > > >>> > > Does this answer your questions? >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Regards, >>> > > Lou >>> > > >>> > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > From: [email protected] >>> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera >>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:40 PM >>> > > To: [email protected] >>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >>> > > >>> > > Miguel, >>> > > >>> > > Isn't Pedro Afonso who is married to Leonor Homem one of your >>> direct >>> > > line ancestors? >>> > > >>> > > Their son Francisco Homem D'El-Rei is my direct line ancestors, and >>> if >>> > > my notes/memory serves me correctly Francisco's brother Fernao >>> Ennes >>> > is >>> > > your ancestor... >>> > > >>> > > If the above is correct will you please share the descending order >>> > from >>> > > >>> > > Fernao Ennes to you... >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Pat >>> > > >>> > > p.s. Lou do you have this marriage record that you referenced >>> below? >>> > > On the Madeira Archives listing for this marriage, the couples' >>> names >>> > > are Ines Martins and Francisco Rodrigues...where did you get the >>> > Duarte >>> > > name from? >>> > > >>> > > >Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is >>> > > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco >>> > > Rodrigues Duarte on >16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) >>> > > >>> > > ----- Original Message ----- >>> > > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" < >>> [email protected] >>> > > >>> > > To: [email protected] >>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:43:30 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada >>> > Pacific >>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>> > > >>> > > Lou, >>> > > >>> > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever >>> be. >>> > > For us >>> > > living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally >>> expected >>> > > names >>> > > from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if not >>> all >>> > > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many >>> people. >>> > > >>> > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from >>> > the >>> > > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also >>> have >>> > > Homens >>> > > from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know >>> > > there >>> > > are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de Sousa, >>> > Homem >>> > > de >>> > > Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at all, >>> > > because a >>> > > simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). >>> > > >>> > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken >>> > > from >>> > > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a >>> very >>> > > ancient Portuguese family. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Well, I hope I was of some help, >>> > > >>> > > Best regards, >>> > > >>> > > Miguel >>> > > >>> > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his >>> marriage >>> > > to >>> > > Maria Lopes? >>> > > >>> > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo >>> > as >>> > > ascendant. >>> > > >>> > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected] >>> > >>> > > wrote: >>> > > >>> > > > Miguel >>> > > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn >>> mode >>> > > and >>> > > > have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. >>> > > > >>> > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he >>> is >>> > > > mentioned >>> > > > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues >>> Duarte >>> > > on 16 >>> > > > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) >>> > > > >>> > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter >>> > Maria >>> > > Lopes >>> > > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book >>> #454, >>> > fl >>> > > 81) >>> > > > >>> > > > Regards, >>> > > > Lou >>> > > > >>> > > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > > From: [email protected] >>> > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de >>> > > Castro >>> > > > Henriques >>> > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM >>> > > > To: [email protected] >>> > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>> > > > >>> > > > Hello Lu, >>> > > > >>> > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean >>> > > typical >>> > > > names from these times. >>> > > > >>> > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? >>> > > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any >>> > > Drummond >>> > > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or >>> > > daughter ? >>> > > > >>> > > > Regards, >>> > > > >>> > > > Miguel >>> > > > >>> > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III < >>> > [email protected]> >>> > > > wrote: >>> > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > All, >>> > > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am >>> sending >>> > > them >>> > > > out >>> > > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or >>> hints >>> > are >>> > > > > appreciated. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar >>> de >>> > > Baixo >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to >>> 1568 >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 >>> > > > > >>> > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is >>> welcomed. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Lou >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > ------------------------------- >>> > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> > > without the >>> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > ------------------------------- >>> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> > without >>> > > the >>> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > ------------------------------- >>> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> > without >>> > > the >>> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without >>> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without >>> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without >>> > > the >>> > > quotes in the subject >>> > > and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without >>> > > the >>> > > quotes in the subject >>> > > and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> > the >>> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> > the >>> > > quotes in the subject >>> > > and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> > the >>> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> > the >>> > > quotes in the subject >>> > > and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------- >>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------- >>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> PRT-M[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Miguel and Pat, Thank you so much for pointing me in the right direction. Beleive it or not I have been working on this genealogy since 1985, both on the Madeiran side and the Canadian side, it has been a journey and one which I have enjoyed immensely, especially for the people I have come to know along the way. Now begins my journey in understanding the foundations from whence these people came. Cheers, Lou On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Pat Corbera <[email protected]> wrote: > Lou, > > The "Registo Genealogico De Familias Que Passaram A Madeira by Luiz Peter Clode can be ordered and viewed at your local Family History Center of LDS, the film number is > 1183626 Item #5. > > I thought this publication was online, but I couldn't find it today. > > Pat > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2009 9:53:41 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > Lou, > > Clode, HHN and Felisberto were available on-line, on the NESOS site. We are > all waiting for that site to re-open. It had ALL the books ever published > about Madeira. > Elucidário Madeirense was on line on Alberto Vieira's site. I think. I have > a copy of the first edition. > > For illustrious members of madeiran families you have Clode's "Registo > bio-biliográfico de Madeirenses ilustres." My grand-father has the honour of > being included. (As well as in the "Elucidário"). It is a good source for > genealogical data, too. > > Elucidário madeirense, too, reports some of the more prominent and oldest > families. And it  is also a genealogical source. Ir refers the parishes, the > first priests. And the oldest families who settled there and the names of > the places. > > It has mistakes, of course. And some old families are not referred. But it > is a must. > > For the moment, though it has mistakes, omissions, etc. and is a bit > ideologically biased, you could also consult Padre Nunes Pereira, Ilhas de > Zargo- It was on-line, the genealogical part at least. With many of the > oldest families from Madeira. > At one point we all connect with at least one or some or several of these > oldest families. > So, Ilhas de Zargo is also a must. > > BTW Pe. Nunes Pereira was closely related to my family. > > Well, I hope I have been of some help, > > > Best regards, > > Miguel > > > > > On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Lou, >> >> I think that the best introduction to genealogy is History. To set the >> families in contrast with their times and societies one should have an >> historical background. >> >> So the first book that I suggest you and everyone to read is a book of >> Portuguese History. I would recommend "The First Global Village" (How >> Portugal changed the World) by Martin Page, Editorial Notícias. Maybe you >> can get it by Amazon. >> >> "Portugal is Europe's south-western extremity washed by the Atlantic and >> warmed by the Mediterranean sun. Alone among Iberia's ancient kingdoms, it >> is a nation half the size of Florida, with two-thirds the population. Yet >> over centuries, it has influenced the lives of the rest of us far more than >> many larger and more powerful countries." >> >> "Martin Page provides a fresh perspective on a fascinating country. The >> First Global Village is an enthralling narrative. (Peter Wise, the Financial >> Times) >> >> >> "Martin Page is full of live" (The New Yorker) >> >> >> Once you got the general picture of Portuguese history and its action over >> the whole world, as a madeiran descendant you should read something about >> Madeira history. There are several Portuguese and Foreign authors who wrote >> about Madeira. You can find on Alberto Vieira's site lots of books about >> Madeira. The ones I have at my hand here are all Portuguese. But it would be >> a necessary instrument for any madeiran descendant to constitute a small >> library with books about Madeira. >> >> >> And only then would I try to select some of the "genealogistas de >> referência." A study on our own roots of course is a study of ourselves, so >> genealogy ends up being a discipline of self-knowledge, and not some >> snobbish activity. >> >> >> I will come later to this matter, >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Miguel >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Miguel etal., >>>    With all the talk of the founding families and history of Madeira etc., >>> can you suggest a reading list that will enlighten me?  Also how readily >>> available are the genealogical works that you all mention so often, Clode, >>> HHN etc. If not available in hard copy what about on the net.  Thank you >>> for >>> all the wonderful education and enlightenment on my ancestors. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Lou >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >>> Henriques >>> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 12:11 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>> >>> Sebastiana appears as "Dona" Sebastiana, in the ARM - it shows she had >>> some >>> status as well as her husband. Try to explore the França de Andrade line. >>> I >>> think it's your high road and link to medieval times..Bon voyage! >>> >>> regards, >>> >>> Miguel >>> >>> On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Miguel, >>> >   Hope all is well with you. No I have not explored that line yet and >>> yes >>> > Sebastiana is the daughter of Manuel and Catarina #4. >>> > >>> > Cheers, >>> > Lou >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: [email protected] >>> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >>> > Henriques >>> > Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 10:39 AM >>> > To: [email protected] >>> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>> > >>> > Hello Lou, >>> > >>> > >>> > The nª 4 Vicente de França de Andrada has a similar name to some Brasões >>> > Teixeiras and Brasões Gouveias from S. Vicente. Have you explored his >>> line? >>> > Somehow he must be of the Franças and of the Andrades. >>> > >>> > In 4. Is it Sebastina de A. de dau. of the nº 3 ? >>> > >>> > Regards, >>> > >>> > Miguel >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:14 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > > 1.    Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira (ca. 1590, marriage >>> not >>> > > recorded in Ribeira Brava) >>> > > >>> > > 2.      Francisco Rodrigues Duarte + Ines Martins(1) (Ribeira Brava, >>> 16 >>> > > Sept >>> > > 1614 – B#389, fl 153) >>> > > >>> > > 3.      Manuel Duarte(2) + Catarina de Abreu (widow) (Ribeira Brava, >>> 27 >>> > Aug >>> > > 1640 – B#390, fl 41) >>> > > >>> > > 4.      Vicente de Franca de Andrade + Sebastiana de Abreu(3) (Sao >>> > Vicente, >>> > > 5 Feb 1670 – B#579, fl 53) >>> > > >>> > > 5.      Vicente de Franca(4) + Maria de Sa (Sao Vicente, 3 Sept 1696 – >>> > > B#556, fl 63) >>> > > >>> > > 6.      Basilio Pestana + Josefa de Franca(5) (Serra de Agua, 13 June >>> > 1735 >>> > > – >>> > > B#409, fl 24) >>> > > >>> > > 7.      Francisco de Andrade(6) + Maria dos Reis (Serra de Agua, 20 >>> Feb >>> > > 1770 >>> > > – B#409, fl 79) >>> > > >>> > > 8.      Manuel de Andrade Silva(7) + Ana Maria (Serra de Agua, 30 Jan >>> > 1815 >>> > > – >>> > > B#411, fl 8) >>> > > >>> > > 9.      Manuel Pestana de Gouveia + Delfina Maria(8) (Serra de Agua, 9 >>> > July >>> > > 1849 – B#411, fl 110) >>> > > >>> > > 10.     Joao de Abreu Amarelo(widower) + Delfina da Conceicao(9) Serra >>> de >>> > > Agua, 13 April 1891 – R#6) >>> > > >>> > > 11.     Antonio Neves de Abreu Amarelo(10) + Carolina de Sousa da >>> Camara >>> > > (Ponta do Sol, 3 Feb 1916 –R#2) >>> > > >>> > > 12.     Louis Neves Abreu(11) + Maria Pita (Lowell, Massachusetts USA, >>> 9 >>> > > April 1939) >>> > > >>> > > 13.     Louis Neves Abreu Jr(12) + Pauline Alice Genest (Lowell, >>> > > Massachusetts USA, 7 Sept 1959) >>> > > >>> > > 14.   Louis Neves Abreu III(13) + Deborah Elaine Bourgeois (Lowell, >>> > > Massachusetts, USA 20 Oct 1979) >>> > > >>> > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > From: [email protected] >>> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >>> > [email protected] >>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:30 PM >>> > > To: [email protected] >>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>> > > >>> > > yes..it helps a lot. do u have the ancestors of ines? im also >>> descendant >>> > of >>> > >  the homem family in ribeira brava >>> > > >>> > > thank you >>> > > >>> > > leandro >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 1:25:11 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >>> > > [email protected] writes: >>> > > >>> > > Leandro, >>> > > Okay I see the confusion, let me  explain >>> > > >>> > > Ines Martin's Parents are Francisco Goncalves Homem and Isabel >>>  Pereira >>> > > (marriage not recorded in Ribeira Brava) >>> > > >>> > > I hope that clears  up the confusion. >>> > > >>> > > Lou >>> > > >>> > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > From:  [email protected] >>> > > [mailto:[email protected]]  On Behalf Of >>> > [email protected] >>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 6:32  PM >>> > > To: [email protected] >>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP  QUESTION >>> > > >>> > > hi lou, my doubt is on the children of pedro afonso and leonor  homem. >>> > > >>> > > im descended from their dau ines afonso married with fernao  anes. But >>> > pat >>> > > said that you have their dau as ines martins married  with francisco >>> > > rodrigues  duarte. im really confused about that  :) >>> > > >>> > > leandro >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 12:06:49 A.M. W.  Europe Standard Time, >>> > > [email protected]  writes: >>> > > >>> > > Leandro, >>> > > I am not sure which line we are talking  about  here, sorry I am a >>> little >>> > > spun around on this one, what do you need   clarified. >>> > > >>> > > Lou >>> > > >>> > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > From:   [email protected] >>> > > [mailto:[email protected]]   On Behalf Of >>> > > [email protected] >>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009  4:58  PM >>> > > To: [email protected] >>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA]  GROUP QUESTION  (Miguel and Lou) >>> > > >>> > > Thank you Pat >>> > > >>> > > Lou...can u  pls clarify this line  for us please? >>> > > >>> > > Thank  you >>> > > >>> > > Leandro >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > In a message dated  12/5/2009 10:54:59 P.M.  W. Europe Standard Time, >>> > > [email protected]  writes: >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Leandro, >>> > > >>> > > Not sure if  this is the same   "person." >>> > > >>> > > The only Pedro Afonso (Cavaleiro) I  have is married to  Leonor >>>  Homem, >>> > > with >>> > > the children that I mentioned  in my posting  attention Miguel and >>>  Lou. >>> > > >>> > > I don't have Pedro's  parents, but  Leonor's parents are Joao Homem >>>  (de >>> > > Monte Gordo) and  Catarina  Vaz. >>> > > >>> > > Hopefully Miguel and/or Paulo  will be able  to  add to this thread. >>> > > >>> > > Ines Martins is Lou's ancestor... >>> > > >>> > > I must admit I'm more confused now than when I first started  my >>> > > genealogy >>> > > quest many, many "moons," ago.  I'm finding  that what was  is  not >>> > > now...Frustrating to say the  least. >>> > > >>> > > I'm trying to sort  out Jorge  Pinto and Leonor de  Atouguia da >>> Costa's >>> > > line...my info  differs from what's in   Norhonha- titulo: Pintos... >>> > > Nothing >>> > > consent but the state  of   change...;-))). >>> > > >>> > > Pat >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ----- Original  Message   ----- >>> > > From: [email protected] >>> > > To:   [email protected] >>> > > Sent:  Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:08:24  PM  GMT -08:00 US/Canada >>> > Pacific >>> > > Subject:  Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP  QUESTION  (Miguel and Lou) >>> > > >>> > > Pat, >>> > > >>> > > I have  Pedro afonso  and leonor de  sousa having a daughter called >>> INES >>> > > AFONSO and   not ines martins.  also she is married to fernao anes and >>> > not >>> > > to  francisco  duarte. Are  we talking about the same person on here? >>> or >>> > > am i   mistaken? >>> > > >>> > > Also, Lou, can you send me on my private  email   [email protected] >>> > > descendency list of manuel duarte  and guiomar   camacho please? >>> > > >>> > > Thank  you >>> > > >>> > > Leandro >>> > > >>> > > -----Original   Message----- >>> > > From: Lou  Abreu III <[email protected]> >>> > > To:    [email protected] >>> > > Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27 pm >>> > > Subject:   Re:  [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and   Lou) >>> > > >>> > > Pat, >>> > > You  are correct with the marriage record,  however,  his baptismal >>> > > record (11  Dec 1586 b#376,fl 202) as  recorded by Dr.  Mello, list >>> his >>> > > full name as  Francisco  Rodrigues Duarte.  His  line from there is as >>> > > follows >>> > > >>> > > Parents Manuel Duarte + Guiomar  Camacha Ribeira Brava  Nov  26 1584 >>> > > >>> > > Manuel's Parents Francisco  Duarte + Maria  Fernandes Ribeira  Brava >>> May >>> > > 22 1560 >>> > > >>> > > Guiomar's  Parents  Francisco Rodrigues Camacho +  Catarina Pestana >>> > > >>> > > Does this   answer your    questions? >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Regards, >>> > > Lou >>> > > >>> > > -----Original    Message----- >>> > > From: [email protected] >>> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat    Corbera >>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:40 PM >>> > > To:    [email protected] >>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION   (Miguel  and Lou) >>> > > >>> > > Miguel, >>> > > >>> > > Isn't Pedro Afonso who is  married  to Leonor  Homem one of your >>> direct >>> > > line  ancestors? >>> > > >>> > > Their son  Francisco Homem  D'El-Rei is my direct  line ancestors, and >>> if >>> > > my  notes/memory serves me  correctly  Francisco's brother Fernao >>> Ennes >>> > is >>> > > your ancestor... >>> > > >>> > > If   the above is correct will you please  share the descending order >>> > from >>> > > >>> > > Fernao Ennes to  you... >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Pat >>> > > >>> > > p.s. Lou do  you have this  marriage record  that you referenced >>> below? >>> > > On the  Madeira Archives listing  for this  marriage, the couples' >>> names >>> > > are Ines Martins and Francisco   Rodrigues...where did you get  the >>> > Duarte >>> > > name  from? >>> > > >>> > > >Francisco  Goncalves Homem is  not listed has having a  parish, he is >>> > > > mentioned in  his  daughter Ines martins marriage to  Francisco >>> > > Rodrigues Duarte on  >16  Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book  #389,Fl 153) >>> > > >>> > > -----  Original Message  ----- >>> > > From: "Miguel de  Castro Henriques"   < >>> [email protected] >>> > > >>> > > To:    [email protected] >>> > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:43:30 AM   GMT  -08:00 US/Canada >>> > Pacific >>> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA]  GROUP   QUESTION >>> > > >>> > > Lou, >>> > > >>> > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in  learn mode  too,  and will forever >>> be. >>> > > For us >>> > > living in  Portugal they are  quite normal, I  would say totally >>> expected >>> > > names >>> > > from that time,  place and  circunstances. And most of  them, if not >>> all >>> > > (Frutuoso may  have disappeared)  are still used  today by many >>> people. >>> > > >>> > > So  Francisco Gonçalves Homem is  from  Ribeira Brava. He must be from >>> > the >>> > > Homens known to have lived in  that  place. That's a start. I also >>>  have >>> > > Homens >>> > > from RB and  they certainly  are all from the same  family. As we know >>> > > there >>> > > are four main sources  for the name Homem  . either  Homem de Sousa, >>> > Homem >>> > > de >>> > > Gouveia, Homem  d'El-Rei and  simply  Homem ( not so simple at all, >>> > > because a >>> > > simple  Homem may   have the name of one of the other three types). >>> > > >>> > > In any case   the  Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken >>> > >  from >>> > > people  living  close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural)  are a >>> very >>> > > ancient Portuguese  family. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Well, I hope I  was of some  help, >>> > > >>> > > Best  regards, >>> > > >>> > > Miguel >>> > > >>> > > PS Who  were Álvaro  Rodirgues parents? And the  witness of his >>> marriage >>> > >  to >>> > > Maria  Lopes? >>> > > >>> > > Lopes being a  patronymic,from  Lopo,  at one point  Maria has a Lopo >>> > as >>> > > ascendant. >>> > > >>> > > Feel free to ask any question  you'd like   to. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou  Abreu  III  <[email protected] >>> > >>> > > wrote: >>> > > >>> > > >   Miguel >>> > > >   Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I  am  still in learn >>> mode >>> > > and >>> > > > have not seen these names  on the  list that often if at  all. >>> > > > >>> > > > Francisco  Goncalves Homem is  not listed has having a  parish, he >>> is >>> > > >  mentioned >>> > > > in his  daughter Ines martins marriage  to  Francisco Rodrigues >>> Duarte >>> > > on  16 >>> > > > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava  (book  #389,Fl 153) >>> > > > >>> > > >  Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco  are mentioned in  their daughter >>> > Maria >>> > > Lopes >>> > > > marriage  to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb  1569, Ponta do Sol  (book >>> #454, >>> > fl >>> > > 81) >>> > > > >>> > > > Regards, >>> > > >   Lou >>> > > > >>> > > >  -----Original Message----- >>> > > > From:    [email protected] >>> > > >    [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de >>> > > Castro >>> > > > Henriques >>> > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009   6:35  PM >>> > > > To: [email protected] >>> > > > Subject: Re:   [PT-MADEIRA]  GROUP QUESTION >>> > > > >>> > > > Hello  Lu, >>> > > > >>> > > >  Strange ones, how  come? They all seem quite  normal ones - I mean >>> > > typical >>> > > > names from  these  times. >>> > > > >>> > > > Francisco  Gonçalves Homem is from what   parish? >>> > > > and Domingos Nunes m,  Branca Afonso? She could be a  Drummond.  Any >>> > > Drummond >>> > > > or  Escórcio  witness in  her marriage  certificate, or his son or >>> > > daughter  ? >>> > > > >>> > > >  Regards, >>> > > > >>> > > >  Miguel >>> > > > >>> > > >  On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02  PM, Lou Abreu III   < >>> > [email protected]> >>> > > > wrote: >>> > > > >>> > > >   > >>> > > >  > All, >>> > > > >  I have the following that  appear to  be dead  ends so I am >>> sending >>> > > them >>> > > >  out >>> > > > > to the group to   see if anyone has these names,  any help or >>> hints >>> > are >>> > > > >   appreciated. >>> > > >  > >>> > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates  not  recorded,  dwelling: Lugar >>> de >>> > > Baixo >>> > > > > >>> > > > >  Antao   Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded >>> > > > > >>> > > >   >  Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to >>> 1568 >>> > > >  > >>> > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel  Fernandes  dates not  recorded >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Catarina  Dias + Baltasar  Fernandes Ponta do  Sol? Prior to 1568 >>> > > >  > >>> > > > > Frutuoso  Enes + Cecilia Frenandes  ca.  1570 >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Apolonia  Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do  Sol  May 12 1573 >>> > > > > >>> > > > >  Joao Pires + Maria  Fernandes Ponta do  Sol Nov 29 1580 >>> > > >  > >>> > > > >  Domingos Anes + Branca  Afonco >>> > > > > >>> > > >  > Francisco  Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira  ca. 1590 >>> > > >  > >>> > > >  > As you can see I have some strange ones so  anything is >>> welcomed. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Lou >>> > > > > >>> > > >    > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >    ------------------------------- >>> > > > > To unsubscribe from the   list,  please send an email to >>> > > > >   [email protected] with the  word 'unsubscribe' >>> > > without  the >>> > > > > quotes in the subject and the  body of  the  message >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >    ------------------------------- >>> > > > To unsubscribe from the list,   please  send an email to >>> > > > [email protected]  with  the word  'unsubscribe' >>> > without >>> > > the >>> > > > quotes in the  subject and  the body of  the  message >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >    ------------------------------- >>> > > > To unsubscribe from the list,   please  send an email to >>> > > > [email protected]  with  the word  'unsubscribe' >>> > without >>> > > the >>> > > > quotes in the  subject and  the body of  the   message >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To  unsubscribe   from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected]  with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>  without >>> > > the quotes in the subject and the body  of the   message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To  unsubscribe   from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected]  with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>  without >>> > > the quotes in the subject and the body  of the   message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To   unsubscribe  from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe'  without >>> > > the quotes in the subject and the body of  the    message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To   unsubscribe  from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with  the word 'unsubscribe' >>>  without >>> > >  the >>> > > quotes in the subject >>> > > and the body of the    message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe  from  the  list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected]  with the word  'unsubscribe' >>>  without >>> > > the >>> > > quotes in the subject >>> > > and  the body of the   message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To  unsubscribe  from the list, please send an email   to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe'  without >>> >  the >>> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the   message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe  from  the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the  word 'unsubscribe' without >>> >  the >>> > > quotes in the subject >>> > > and the body of the   message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the  list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the  word 'unsubscribe' without >>> > the >>> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the  message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from  the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the  word 'unsubscribe' without >>> > the >>> > > quotes in the subject >>> > > and the body of the  message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ------------------------------- >>> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------- >>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------- >>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> > >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Miguel, once again, for sharing your expertise with us. I know that I'm benefitting enormously from your recommendations. And now, I guess I have my bedtime reading cut out for me : ) That is if I can get my hands on the books. Can't wait for the Nesos site to go live again - which I hope they do. I loved browsing through the site and finding all sorts of documents and articles. Hindsight is of course 20/20 vision - wish I had downloaded the ones I referred to often. Thanks again! Janette On 8-Dec-09, at 9:53 AM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: > Lou, > > Clode, HHN and Felisberto were available on-line, on the NESOS site. > We are > all waiting for that site to re-open. It had ALL the books ever > published > about Madeira. > Elucidário Madeirense was on line on Alberto Vieira's site. I think. > I have > a copy of the first edition. > > For illustrious members of madeiran families you have Clode's "Registo > bio-biliográfico de Madeirenses ilustres." My grand-father has the > honour of > being included. (As well as in the "Elucidário"). It is a good > source for > genealogical data, too. > > Elucidário madeirense, too, reports some of the more prominent and > oldest > families. And it is also a genealogical source. Ir refers the > parishes, the > first priests. And the oldest families who settled there and the > names of > the places. > > It has mistakes, of course. And some old families are not referred. > But it > is a must. > > For the moment, though it has mistakes, omissions, etc. and is a bit > ideologically biased, you could also consult Padre Nunes Pereira, > Ilhas de > Zargo- It was on-line, the genealogical part at least. With many of > the > oldest families from Madeira. > At one point we all connect with at least one or some or several of > these > oldest families. > So, Ilhas de Zargo is also a must. > > BTW Pe. Nunes Pereira was closely related to my family. > > Well, I hope I have been of some help, > > > Best regards, > > Miguel > > > > > On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Lou, >> >> I think that the best introduction to genealogy is History. To set >> the >> families in contrast with their times and societies one should have >> an >> historical background. >> >> So the first book that I suggest you and everyone to read is a book >> of >> Portuguese History. I would recommend "The First Global Village" (How >> Portugal changed the World) by Martin Page, Editorial Notícias. >> Maybe you >> can get it by Amazon. >> >> "Portugal is Europe's south-western extremity washed by the >> Atlantic and >> warmed by the Mediterranean sun. Alone among Iberia's ancient >> kingdoms, it >> is a nation half the size of Florida, with two-thirds the >> population. Yet >> over centuries, it has influenced the lives of the rest of us far >> more than >> many larger and more powerful countries." >> >> "Martin Page provides a fresh perspective on a fascinating country. >> The >> First Global Village is an enthralling narrative. (Peter Wise, the >> Financial >> Times) >> >> >> "Martin Page is full of live" (The New Yorker) >> >> >> Once you got the general picture of Portuguese history and its >> action over >> the whole world, as a madeiran descendant you should read something >> about >> Madeira history. There are several Portuguese and Foreign authors >> who wrote >> about Madeira. You can find on Alberto Vieira's site lots of books >> about >> Madeira. The ones I have at my hand here are all Portuguese. But it >> would be >> a necessary instrument for any madeiran descendant to constitute a >> small >> library with books about Madeira. >> >> >> And only then would I try to select some of the "genealogistas de >> referência." A study on our own roots of course is a study of >> ourselves, so >> genealogy ends up being a discipline of self-knowledge, and not some >> snobbish activity. >> >> >> I will come later to this matter, >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Miguel >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Miguel etal., >>> With all the talk of the founding families and history of >>> Madeira etc., >>> can you suggest a reading list that will enlighten me? Also how >>> readily >>> available are the genealogical works that you all mention so >>> often, Clode, >>> HHN etc. If not available in hard copy what about on the net. >>> Thank you >>> for >>> all the wonderful education and enlightenment on my ancestors. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Lou >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de >>> Castro >>> Henriques >>> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 12:11 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>> >>> Sebastiana appears as "Dona" Sebastiana, in the ARM - it shows she >>> had >>> some >>> status as well as her husband. Try to explore the França de >>> Andrade line. >>> I >>> think it's your high road and link to medieval times..Bon voyage! >>> >>> regards, >>> >>> Miguel >>> >>> On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Miguel, >>>> Hope all is well with you. No I have not explored that line yet >>>> and >>> yes >>>> Sebastiana is the daughter of Manuel and Catarina #4. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Lou >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [email protected] >>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de >>>> Castro >>>> Henriques >>>> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 10:39 AM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>>> >>>> Hello Lou, >>>> >>>> >>>> The nª 4 Vicente de França de Andrada has a similar name to some >>>> Brasões >>>> Teixeiras and Brasões Gouveias from S. Vicente. Have you explored >>>> his >>> line? >>>> Somehow he must be of the Franças and of the Andrades. >>>> >>>> In 4. Is it Sebastina de A. de dau. of the nº 3 ? >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Miguel >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:14 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> 1. Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira (ca. 1590, >>>>> marriage >>> not >>>>> recorded in Ribeira Brava) >>>>> >>>>> 2. Francisco Rodrigues Duarte + Ines Martins(1) (Ribeira >>>>> Brava, >>> 16 >>>>> Sept >>>>> 1614 – B#389, fl 153) >>>>> >>>>> 3. Manuel Duarte(2) + Catarina de Abreu (widow) (Ribeira >>>>> Brava, >>> 27 >>>> Aug >>>>> 1640 – B#390, fl 41) >>>>> >>>>> 4. Vicente de Franca de Andrade + Sebastiana de Abreu(3) (Sao >>>> Vicente, >>>>> 5 Feb 1670 – B#579, fl 53) >>>>> >>>>> 5. Vicente de Franca(4) + Maria de Sa (Sao Vicente, 3 Sept >>>>> 1696 – >>>>> B#556, fl 63) >>>>> >>>>> 6. Basilio Pestana + Josefa de Franca(5) (Serra de Agua, 13 >>>>> June >>>> 1735 >>>>> – >>>>> B#409, fl 24) >>>>> >>>>> 7. Francisco de Andrade(6) + Maria dos Reis (Serra de Agua, >>>>> 20 >>> Feb >>>>> 1770 >>>>> – B#409, fl 79) >>>>> >>>>> 8. Manuel de Andrade Silva(7) + Ana Maria (Serra de Agua, >>>>> 30 Jan >>>> 1815 >>>>> – >>>>> B#411, fl 8) >>>>> >>>>> 9. Manuel Pestana de Gouveia + Delfina Maria(8) (Serra de >>>>> Agua, 9 >>>> July >>>>> 1849 – B#411, fl 110) >>>>> >>>>> 10. Joao de Abreu Amarelo(widower) + Delfina da Conceicao(9) >>>>> Serra >>> de >>>>> Agua, 13 April 1891 – R#6) >>>>> >>>>> 11. Antonio Neves de Abreu Amarelo(10) + Carolina de Sousa da >>> Camara >>>>> (Ponta do Sol, 3 Feb 1916 –R#2) >>>>> >>>>> 12. Louis Neves Abreu(11) + Maria Pita (Lowell, >>>>> Massachusetts USA, >>> 9 >>>>> April 1939) >>>>> >>>>> 13. Louis Neves Abreu Jr(12) + Pauline Alice Genest (Lowell, >>>>> Massachusetts USA, 7 Sept 1959) >>>>> >>>>> 14. Louis Neves Abreu III(13) + Deborah Elaine Bourgeois >>>>> (Lowell, >>>>> Massachusetts, USA 20 Oct 1979) >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >>>> [email protected] >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:30 PM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>>>> >>>>> yes..it helps a lot. do u have the ancestors of ines? im also >>> descendant >>>> of >>>>> the homem family in ribeira brava >>>>> >>>>> thank you >>>>> >>>>> leandro >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In a message dated 12/6/2009 1:25:11 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >>>>> [email protected] writes: >>>>> >>>>> Leandro, >>>>> Okay I see the confusion, let me explain >>>>> >>>>> Ines Martin's Parents are Francisco Goncalves Homem and Isabel >>> Pereira >>>>> (marriage not recorded in Ribeira Brava) >>>>> >>>>> I hope that clears up the confusion. >>>>> >>>>> Lou >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >>>> [email protected] >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 6:32 PM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>>>> >>>>> hi lou, my doubt is on the children of pedro afonso and leonor >>>>> homem. >>>>> >>>>> im descended from their dau ines afonso married with fernao >>>>> anes. But >>>> pat >>>>> said that you have their dau as ines martins married with >>>>> francisco >>>>> rodrigues duarte. im really confused about that :) >>>>> >>>>> leandro >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In a message dated 12/6/2009 12:06:49 A.M. W. Europe Standard >>>>> Time, >>>>> [email protected] writes: >>>>> >>>>> Leandro, >>>>> I am not sure which line we are talking about here, sorry I am a >>> little >>>>> spun around on this one, what do you need clarified. >>>>> >>>>> Lou >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:58 PM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >>>>> >>>>> Thank you Pat >>>>> >>>>> Lou...can u pls clarify this line for us please? >>>>> >>>>> Thank you >>>>> >>>>> Leandro >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In a message dated 12/5/2009 10:54:59 P.M. W. Europe Standard >>>>> Time, >>>>> [email protected] writes: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Leandro, >>>>> >>>>> Not sure if this is the same "person." >>>>> >>>>> The only Pedro Afonso (Cavaleiro) I have is married to Leonor >>> Homem, >>>>> with >>>>> the children that I mentioned in my posting attention Miguel and >>> Lou. >>>>> >>>>> I don't have Pedro's parents, but Leonor's parents are Joao >>>>> Homem >>> (de >>>>> Monte Gordo) and Catarina Vaz. >>>>> >>>>> Hopefully Miguel and/or Paulo will be able to add to this >>>>> thread. >>>>> >>>>> Ines Martins is Lou's ancestor... >>>>> >>>>> I must admit I'm more confused now than when I first started my >>>>> genealogy >>>>> quest many, many "moons," ago. I'm finding that what was is >>>>> not >>>>> now...Frustrating to say the least. >>>>> >>>>> I'm trying to sort out Jorge Pinto and Leonor de Atouguia da >>> Costa's >>>>> line...my info differs from what's in Norhonha- titulo: >>>>> Pintos... >>>>> Nothing >>>>> consent but the state of change...;-))). >>>>> >>>>> Pat >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:08:24 PM GMT -08:00 US/ >>>>> Canada >>>> Pacific >>>>> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >>>>> >>>>> Pat, >>>>> >>>>> I have Pedro afonso and leonor de sousa having a daughter >>>>> called >>> INES >>>>> AFONSO and not ines martins. also she is married to fernao >>>>> anes and >>>> not >>>>> to francisco duarte. Are we talking about the same person on >>>>> here? >>> or >>>>> am i mistaken? >>>>> >>>>> Also, Lou, can you send me on my private email [email protected] >>>>> descendency list of manuel duarte and guiomar camacho please? >>>>> >>>>> Thank you >>>>> >>>>> Leandro >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27 pm >>>>> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >>>>> >>>>> Pat, >>>>> You are correct with the marriage record, however, his >>>>> baptismal >>>>> record (11 Dec 1586 b#376,fl 202) as recorded by Dr. Mello, >>>>> list >>> his >>>>> full name as Francisco Rodrigues Duarte. His line from there >>>>> is as >>>>> follows >>>>> >>>>> Parents Manuel Duarte + Guiomar Camacha Ribeira Brava Nov 26 >>>>> 1584 >>>>> >>>>> Manuel's Parents Francisco Duarte + Maria Fernandes Ribeira >>>>> Brava >>> May >>>>> 22 1560 >>>>> >>>>> Guiomar's Parents Francisco Rodrigues Camacho + Catarina >>>>> Pestana >>>>> >>>>> Does this answer your questions? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Lou >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat >>>>> Corbera >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:40 PM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) >>>>> >>>>> Miguel, >>>>> >>>>> Isn't Pedro Afonso who is married to Leonor Homem one of your >>> direct >>>>> line ancestors? >>>>> >>>>> Their son Francisco Homem D'El-Rei is my direct line >>>>> ancestors, and >>> if >>>>> my notes/memory serves me correctly Francisco's brother Fernao >>> Ennes >>>> is >>>>> your ancestor... >>>>> >>>>> If the above is correct will you please share the descending >>>>> order >>>> from >>>>> >>>>> Fernao Ennes to you... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Pat >>>>> >>>>> p.s. Lou do you have this marriage record that you referenced >>> below? >>>>> On the Madeira Archives listing for this marriage, the couples' >>> names >>>>> are Ines Martins and Francisco Rodrigues...where did you get >>>>> the >>>> Duarte >>>>> name from? >>>>> >>>>>> Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, >>>>>> he is >>>>>> mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco >>>>> Rodrigues Duarte on >16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book >>>>> #389,Fl 153) >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" < >>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:43:30 AM GMT -08:00 US/ >>>>> Canada >>>> Pacific >>>>> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>>>> >>>>> Lou, >>>>> >>>>> Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will >>>>> forever >>> be. >>>>> For us >>>>> living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally >>> expected >>>>> names >>>>> from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if >>>>> not >>> all >>>>> (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many >>> people. >>>>> >>>>> So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must >>>>> be from >>>> the >>>>> Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also >>> have >>>>> Homens >>>>> from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As >>>>> we know >>>>> there >>>>> are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de >>>>> Sousa, >>>> Homem >>>>> de >>>>> Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at >>>>> all, >>>>> because a >>>>> simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three >>>>> types). >>>>> >>>>> In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic >>>>> taken >>>>> from >>>>> people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) >>>>> are a >>> very >>>>> ancient Portuguese family. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Well, I hope I was of some help, >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> Miguel >>>>> >>>>> PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his >>> marriage >>>>> to >>>>> Maria Lopes? >>>>> >>>>> Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a >>>>> Lopo >>>> as >>>>> ascendant. >>>>> >>>>> Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected] >>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Miguel >>>>>> Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn >>> mode >>>>> and >>>>>> have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. >>>>>> >>>>>> Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, >>>>>> he >>> is >>>>>> mentioned >>>>>> in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues >>> Duarte >>>>> on 16 >>>>>> Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) >>>>>> >>>>>> Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter >>>> Maria >>>>> Lopes >>>>>> marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book >>> #454, >>>> fl >>>>> 81) >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Lou >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel >>>>>> de >>>>> Castro >>>>>> Henriques >>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM >>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello Lu, >>>>>> >>>>>> Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I >>>>>> mean >>>>> typical >>>>>> names from these times. >>>>>> >>>>>> Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? >>>>>> and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a >>>>>> Drummond. Any >>>>> Drummond >>>>>> or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son >>>>>> or >>>>> daughter ? >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Miguel >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III < >>>> [email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All, >>>>>>> I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am >>> sending >>>>> them >>>>>> out >>>>>>> to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or >>> hints >>>> are >>>>>>> appreciated. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: >>>>>>> Lugar >>> de >>>>> Baixo >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to >>> 1568 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to >>>>>>> 1568 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is >>> welcomed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Lou >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>>> without the >>>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without >>>>> the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without >>>>> the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without >>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without >>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>>> without >>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without >>>>> the >>>>> quotes in the subject >>>>> and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without >>>>> the >>>>> quotes in the subject >>>>> and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>>> without >>>> the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>>> without >>>> the >>>>> quotes in the subject >>>>> and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>>> without >>>> the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>>> without >>>> the >>>>> quotes in the subject >>>>> and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>>> without >>> the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>>> without >>> the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without >>> the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without >>> the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

Thank you Cece... I'm going to check with ARM to see if I can obtain a translated copy of that death record that Paulo mention in his posting, that you quoted below... I also feel that Sr. Mello "does his homework." ;-)). Maybe someone else can e-mail Miguel for his input I believe this may be his line also, since he apparently isn't answering my questions lately... ;-)). Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cece Camara" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2009 5:58:59 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] website I will take this opportunity to answer why I have Leonor as Leonor de Abreu - not sure about Leandro! It has to do with discussion here involving our beloved but often MIA, Paulo...these are my notes on Leonor: "Paulo says this name is wrong...calls her Leonor de Abreu instead: Jorge Pinto, 1º Morgado da Ilha, dead 1559. Married Leonor de Abreu. There is no creature by the name of "D. Leonor da Costa e Atouguia" or whatever, it's an invention. Leonor de Abreu is said to have been the daughter of a documented Rui Colaço de Abreu & Filipa Rodrigues. Designated heir and administrator was his son: Paulo continues: Forget everything you've read about that "Leonor da Costa e Atouguia", which is an invented creature. After decyphering the death record of Jorge Pinto the younger I could read that he was married to Leonor DE ABREU, who he designated as heir and will executor. After her death all the "fazenda" would pass to their son, Pedro da Costa. There is not a shred of doubt that the Costa surname was already in the family, since Jorge Pinto the younger had a documented paternal uncle named Lopo da Costa, so this late "Leonor da Costa" was really unecessary to explain it. Leonor de Abreu is said somewhere to be from the Abreus Colaços, which is quite plausible. Catarina Álvares was daughter of Luís Álvares, Esquire, which is a COSTA even if he never used that surname himself. His family acquired the position of "Contador dos Contos da Ilha da Madeira" when his son Francisco Álvares married Branca de Atouguia, who brought the position in her "dote". As such - I have detached Leonor de Atougia da Costa from her parents as originally provided by geneall and changed her name and parentage as Paulo suggests above." Basically - it all sounded good to me and I did not have anything to prove either name as "right" or "wrong"...but I know Paulo does his homework so figured as long as I added my notes it could always be changed back later ;-) Cece -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 7:39 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] website Leadro, I hope that I'm not re-visiting a subject that you and others may have already answered, but I have been known to be a "testa dura (sic?)." In viewing your TribalPages website, I have a couple questions: 1. You have a Leonor Abreu married to Jorge Pinto, with Leonor's parents being Rodrigo Alvares Da Costa and Ines Delgado. I have the a Leonore de Atouguia da Costa married to a Jorge Pinto, with my Leonor having the same parents as you... Are you saying that your Leonor Abreu is the same person as Leonor de Atouguia da Costa? If so, what's your source for her referencing her surname as Abreu? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 2. Isabel Fernandes (a Velha d'a Serra) you have her parents being Fernao Nunes Cardoso and a Lucrecia Lopes... I have her as being the daughter of Fernao Nunes Cardoso and a Catharina de Gouveia...with the following source notes: "Nobiliario da Madeira by Henrique Henriques de Noronha. Titulo: Delgados. Pedro Delgado, a quem chamárão de alcunha o Nabo, era natural de Portugal, d’a Arruda; passou com sua mulher a viver a esta Ilha pouco depois de seu descobrimento. Foi casado com Izabel Fernandes, a quem chamárão a Vêlha d’a Serra, filha de Fernão Nunes Cardoso, e de Catharina de Gouvêa." Was Lucrecia Lopes another wife of Fernao Nunes Cardoso, if so what's your source? Pat p.s. Hopefully Miguel will add his comments as to who the parents of Isabel Fernandes (a Velha d'a Serra)may have been. Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2009 8:40:51 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] website hey Miguel, you are MORE THAN WELCOME to make suggestions and add new info. Actually, not only you but all our cousins from the forum, which im so proud to be related to. These cyber space is quite nice actually, it feels like a big family. Thank you for your compliments and im looking forward to hear from you all. Leandro In a message dated 06/12/2009 17:30:40 Romance Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Leandro, Great job! Looks like an anthology of almost all Madeiran families - it shows our many connections. For the moment I'm just seeing. You won't mind if I point some corrections, namely in parts that are atributed to me? Some I have new data, others I have abandoned due to new facts and documents. Anyway a genealogical work is always a work in progress, subject to significant changes sometimes, to minor alterations. Where to start? Well I picked , for a start, Afonso da Mata, who was Escudeiro, and Isabel de Freitas. They are well known amidst the founding fathers of all Gaula families. Quite recently I discovered that Isabel de Freitas comes from the Freitas of Terras de Bouro (North of Portugal). It seems a promising line. Yet certainly very difficult to track since it's medieval. I'll try to ask in another forum to some MEDIEVAL specialists who were these Freitas. Clode says that Isabel de Freitas, bescause she was from S. Cruz "probably" belonged to the well known Freitas of Santa Cruz. It's a possibility. But I don't know the origin of these, apart what is common knowledge . they descend from Gonçalo de Freitas. FCR, Monteiro. Mor do Infante D. Fernando. (I was never able to confirm this title) Well, Once again congratulations and regards, Miguel On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 12:18 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > OK - now tell me how you did it?? :-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:14 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] website > > hey guys, > > especially Cece, Ed, Jeff, Lou, Zack, Jose, Pat and Zelia, > > I just updated my website: _http://teles.tribalpages.com_ > (http://teles.tribalpages.com) > > and put your ancestors of each of you with a coloured box, so in that > way would be easier to follow p how close we are related. > > let me know what you guys think > > thank u > > leandro > > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 3:44:52 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Lou, > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever be. For > us living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally expected > names from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if > not all (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many > people. > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from > the Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also have > Homens from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know > there are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de > Sousa, Homem de Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so > simple at all, > because a simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken from > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a > very ancient Portuguese family. > > > Well, I hope I was of some help, > > Best regards, > > Miguel > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his > marriage to Maria Lopes? > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo > as ascendant. > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. > > > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Miguel > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn mode > > and have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he > is > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco > > Rodrigues Duarte on 16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter > > Maria > Lopes > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book #454, > > fl > > 81) > > > > Regards, > > Lou > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > Castro Henriques > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > Hello Lu, > > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean > > typical names from these times. > > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any > Drummond > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or > > daughter > ? > > > > Regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > All, > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am > > > sending them > > out > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or hints > > > are appreciated. > > > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar > > > de > Baixo > > > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is welcomed. > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found > in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.94/2545 - Release Date: 12/05/09 > 08:13:00 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.94/2545 - Release Date: 12/06/09 19:37:00 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Leandro, I guess anything is possible, but on my chart 77 that Sr. Mello prepared he has the following: Jorge Pinto (+) 1559 April 18 married to Leonor Da Costa (no additional info on her..he then continues this line with their son Jorge Pinto Da Costa m. Margarida Anes De Amil. Back to Jorge Pinto, his parents are shown as Jorge Pinto (+) 1552 Jan 24 m. Maria Lopes...on this chart parents for Jorge Pinto are listed as Lopo Pinto (+) ca.1500 and Cararina Alves... No parents are listed for Maria Lopes. Now for Leonor Da Costa (after reading Nornonha Titulo: COSTAATOU & GeneAll I added the d'a Atouguia, but Sr. Mello only had her name as Leonor Da Costa daughter of Rodrigo Alvares Da Costa, for her mother Sr. Mello has "not mentioned." This is what Titulo: Costaatou has. § 9° N° 3. Rodrigo Alvares d’a Costa, filho 7° de / Francisco Alvares d’a Costa, § 1°, N° 2°./ Casou 1ª vez em 1524 com Ignez / Delgada, filha de Pedro Delgado, e Izabel / Fernandes, a Velha d’a Serra, em titulo de / Delgados, § 1°, N° 1°./ De quem houve/ 4 - D. Leonor d’a Costa, mulher de Jor-/ ge Pinto, em titulo de Pintos, § 1°, N° 3°./ I think that may have obtained your information from what Paulo posted to Cece and not me. See Cece's recent posting... What I'm now going to do is to remove my website from TribalPages, and put everything that Sr. Mello prepared for me back in my pc genealogy data base... I suggest anyone coping what I posted to TribalPages, remove me from their websites...I can't think of any other way to make all this right. Just too many discrepancies. Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2009 10:28:01 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] website Hey Pat, Thank you for your comments. Now im very confused because actually i have all these info given from you in some point throughout those years. Not sure when. Probably along the way you correct your sources and i never changed mines. Is it possible for MIguel or anyone else also comment or confirm this names? about Lucrecia lopes, i got her info in HHN in the titles of Florenca, so as you can see he must have put 2 different things in the same book :) i welcome you comments on this Leandro In a message dated 07/12/2009 02:39:28 Romance Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Leadro, I hope that I'm not re-visiting a subject that you and others may have already answered, but I have been known to be a "testa dura (sic?)." In viewing your TribalPages website, I have a couple questions: 1. You have a Leonor Abreu married to Jorge Pinto, with Leonor's parents being Rodrigo Alvares Da Costa and Ines Delgado. I have the a Leonore de Atouguia da Costa married to a Jorge Pinto, with my Leonor having the same parents as you... Are you saying that your Leonor Abreu is the same person as Leonor de Atouguia da Costa? If so, what's your source for her referencing her surname as Abreu? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 2. Isabel Fernandes (a Velha d'a Serra) you have her parents being Fernao Nunes Cardoso and a Lucrecia Lopes... I have her as being the daughter of Fernao Nunes Cardoso and a Catharina de Gouveia...with the following source notes: "Nobiliario da Madeira by Henrique Henriques de Noronha. Titulo: Delgados. Pedro Delgado, a quem chamárão de alcunha o Nabo, era natural de Portugal, d’a Arruda; passou com sua mulher a viver a esta Ilha pouco depois de seu descobrimento. Foi casado com Izabel Fernandes, a quem chamárão a Vêlha d’a Serra, filha de Fernão Nunes Cardoso, e de Catharina de Gouvêa." Was Lucrecia Lopes another wife of Fernao Nunes Cardoso, if so what's your source? Pat p.s. Hopefully Miguel will add his comments as to who the parents of Isabel Fernandes (a Velha d'a Serra)may have been. Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2009 8:40:51 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] website hey Miguel, you are MORE THAN WELCOME to make suggestions and add new info. Actually, not only you but all our cousins from the forum, which im so proud to be related to. These cyber space is quite nice actually, it feels like a big family. Thank you for your compliments and im looking forward to hear from you all. Leandro In a message dated 06/12/2009 17:30:40 Romance Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Leandro, Great job! Looks like an anthology of almost all Madeiran families - it shows our many connections. For the moment I'm just seeing. You won't mind if I point some corrections, namely in parts that are atributed to me? Some I have new data, others I have abandoned due to new facts and documents. Anyway a genealogical work is always a work in progress, subject to significant changes sometimes, to minor alterations. Where to start? Well I picked , for a start, Afonso da Mata, who was Escudeiro, and Isabel de Freitas. They are well known amidst the founding fathers of all Gaula families. Quite recently I discovered that Isabel de Freitas comes from the Freitas of Terras de Bouro (North of Portugal). It seems a promising line. Yet certainly very difficult to track since it's medieval. I'll try to ask in another forum to some MEDIEVAL specialists who were these Freitas. Clode says that Isabel de Freitas, bescause she was from S. Cruz "probably" belonged to the well known Freitas of Santa Cruz. It's a possibility. But I don't know the origin of these, apart what is common knowledge . they descend from Gonçalo de Freitas. FCR, Monteiro. Mor do Infante D. Fernando. (I was never able to confirm this title) Well, Once again congratulations and regards, Miguel On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 12:18 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > OK - now tell me how you did it?? :-) > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:14 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] website > > hey guys, > > especially Cece, Ed, Jeff, Lou, Zack, Jose, Pat and Zelia, > > I just updated my website: _http://teles.tribalpages.com_ > (http://teles.tribalpages.com) > > and put your ancestors of each of you with a coloured box, so in that way > would be easier to follow p how close we are related. > > let me know what you guys think > > thank u > > leandro > > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 3:44:52 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Lou, > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever be. For > us living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally expected > names from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if not > all > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many people. > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from the > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also have > Homens from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know > there are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de Sousa, > Homem de Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at all, > because a simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken from > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a very > ancient Portuguese family. > > > Well, I hope I was of some help, > > Best regards, > > Miguel > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his marriage to > Maria Lopes? > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo as > ascendant. > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. > > > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Miguel > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn mode > > and have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues > > Duarte on 16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter Maria > Lopes > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book #454, fl > > 81) > > > > Regards, > > Lou > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > Castro Henriques > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > Hello Lu, > > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean > > typical names from these times. > > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any > Drummond > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or > > daughter > ? > > > > Regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > All, > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am sending > > > them > > out > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or hints > > > are appreciated. > > > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar de > Baixo > > > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is welcomed. > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.94/2545 - Release Date: 12/05/09 > 08:13:00 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

José, Carlota Joaquina, the wife of Dom João VI, was a Spanish Bourbon. Then in Brazill the Imperial Braganças married with someone from the Orleans, who are a branch of the French Bourbons. (La branche cadette). Then, D. Duarte Pio. our current heir to the Portuguese throne is a descebdant both of the Imperial Brazilian House and the Royal Portuguese House ( through Dom Miguel I). Let's see what we can find about Ana Henriques. You checked ARM, I suppose. Miguel On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 4:26 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > Didn't the Braganças eventually marry into the Bourbons any way? At least > the Brazilian line. > > No, the one who marries Sebastião is a widow I think of Francisco. The one > who marries João must be a second one, in this case.We are not counting the > one married to Pedro. Anyway, there are only about 6 Ana Henriques between > 1580 and 1680, and I know of at least 3 of them and that is not counting the > one married to Pedro Saldanha. Henriques is a common name, but these seem to > be within Caniço or Santa Cruz. > > Let me know what you find out from the baptism certificates. > > José > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 11:07 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) > > José, > > Yes, indeed. The Braganças. For instance of all the sons that D.João VI and > Carlota Joaquina had, only one seems to have been really his son. This > happened during the times of Napoleon, the fiery emperor. In several books > of historians (both brazilian and Portuguese) there are passages inquiring > who might have been the father of Dom Miguel: the gardener? The Marquis of > Marialva? An anon? > > problem with Ana Henriques is that Henriques, is a rather common name. But > I > think the methodology for finding her that you're using is Ok. Check all > the > Ana Henriques of that time (and place, in this case Madeira) and see > whether > one of them is a widow. Because there should exist a register of the > marriage of Pedro Dias and Ana Henriques. > Anyway Ana Henriques and Pedro Dias Saldanha married around 160 and > 1622...) > > So she is certainlyh not the Ana Henriques that marries your ancestor > Sebastião Dias. > > But the second Ana H. married to a Francisco (Francisco who?) could fit, > chronologically speaking. João de Abreu her father could be João de Abreu > Henriques, there were some Abreus Henriques, especially from Cãmara de > Lobos. Paulo being a descendant of these Henriques (I suppose) as well of > the others (the Gomes Henriques) may know something about this. > > I am going to ask for Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias (Saldanha) baptism > certificates. > > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel, > > Let's not forget the Braganças... > > Please let me know if you get anywhere with Ana Henriques. Note that > there > > is a Ana Henriques who is a window by 1662. She marries Sebastião Dias, > > Caniço, 1662, 902, 239vo. I have that certificate, because Sebastião is a > > brother to my ancestor Jorge Dias and my great (7) grandfather Inácio > > Fernandes, if I have got all of this correct!. > > There is a Ana Henriques married to Francisco sometime in 1640's. She > must > > be the same one. She is the daughter of João de Abreu and Angela > Rodrigues. > > I can't find this marriage in Caniço. There is João de Abreu married to > > Angela Lopes in Arco da Calheta in 1617. > > > > Is that Angela, a Lopes de Sá? > > > > In 1676 Sebastião's brother João marries Maria de Santiago who is said to > > be a daughter of Ana Heriques (Francisco is dead at this time) so it > seems > > that it is from her first marriage. > > Our Ana is married to Saldanha sometime in 1625. Can you make a > connection? > > > > I said above that I estimate her marriage between 1600 and 162...But I > still > can+t make a connection. > > > Thanks for the input, it remains a possibility. > > > Best regards,, > > Miguel > > > > > José > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 4:35 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e > Cairos) > > > > José, > > > > However bastard lines were quite common, even the Portuguese Royal House, > > had bastards who became Kings (Like D. João I, the first of the Avis > line). > > In the Case of noble lines, like the Saldanhas,bastards would not have > > sucxh > > delicate feelings for the other legitimate sons, and they would not > > hesitate > > in using that name. (that was in some sort a redemption from being > > bastards) > > - And they were legal Saldanhas, anyway., because there was not at all > any > > discirmination. If your father had such and such a name, the children > could > > and would use it regardless of the mother. As was the case with Pedro > Dias > > Saldanha who used the full and traditional name of the Saldanha's. Just > > remember that it was an archi.patriarchal society. The ma's line was the > > line tat counted. The mother's line only counted if she was noble. > > > > Anyway what I´m now looking for is from what family was Ana Henriques, > his > > wife (the wife iof Pedro Dias de Saldanha). > > > > As Manuel Dias (Saldanha) marriage with Maria de Andrada, descendant of > the > > Noronha, proves, the Saldanhas, even bastards , could afford marriages > with > > descendants of the" Capitão Donatário", which means the highest nobility > in > > Madeira. It was a small Island. Everyone knew its place. These things > meant > > a lot in these days. Status was measured and transmitted in the minutest > > way. Democracy and concepts (and practice) of social equality would only > > come 4 centuries later. Even so, even in our days, one cannot say that > > nowadays it's all utopic and flowery. Other social barriers, others > > snobbishness have arised. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On the Saldanhas...still > > > The fact is that our Pedro Dias Saldanha came from a bastard line. so > > they > > > weren't 'legal" Saldanhas. I am not sure that the other children would > > > appreciate that. That may explain why they dropped the Saldanha name. > > > > > > José > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 10:56 AM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) > > > > > > OK. I retrieved the Sousas from Ribeira Grande, > > > Miguel de Castro Henriques to prt-madeira > > > show details Jan 22 > > > > > > To all who descend from the Burgos, > > > > > > Manuel César Furtado, a genealogist who knows a lot about Açores > > genealogy > > > and medieval genealogy, kindly sent me this. > > > > > > Check the names in bold. > > > > > > Remember that Jerónimo de Sousa's, from Ribeira Grande, S.Miguel, > Açores, > > ( > > > m. Maria de Sá) parents were Simão Martins and Leonor de Sousa. > > > > > > It might be possible that Leonor Manuel is the mother of our Leonor de > > > Sousa. > > > Cronologically and topologically it's quite fitting. > > > > > > > > > Then Simoa Martins married to Pedro Jorge and owner of a land with > "foro" > > > could be the mother of Simâo Martins, husband of Leonor de Sousa. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CAPÍTULO 132.º > > > DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE IREZA DE SOUSA > > > § 1.º > > > 1 - Ireza de Sousa, natural da Irlanda, no dizer de Frutuoso, e dama da > > > rainha D. Leonor (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § I). Casou em Portugal > > com > > > um fidalgo, cujo nome Frutuoso não soube, o qual era morador em Souzel, > > > donde veio para a Ilha de S. Miguel por matar um corregedor, fixando > > > residência com sua mulher em Vila Franca e depois no Telhal da Lomba da > > > Ribeira Grande. Ireza de Sousa e seu marido vieram para esta Ilha no > > tempo > > > do Capitão Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. > > > Tiveram: > > > 2 - João de Sousa, que esteve em África no tempo de el-rei D. Manuel, > > onde > > > foi armado Cavaleiro (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § III e V). Casou > com > > > Isabel Alvares, mulher nobre. > > > Tiveram: > > > 3 - Baltazar Vaz de Sousa, foi morador na Ribeira Grande, ao Telhal e > > > morreu > > > em Porto Seguro, no Brasil (Vide os seus feitos no Cap.º XXIV do Livro > IV > > > das Saudades da Terra, e também no Cap.º LXI do mesmo Livro, onde se vê > > que > > > era magarefe). Sua mulher morreu na freguesia da Matriz da Ribeira > Grande > > a > > > 13.4.1654 com testamento, sendo testamenteiro seu filho João de Sousa. > > > Casou > > > com Leonor Manuel. > > > Tiveram: > > > 4 - Nuno de Sousa, Capitão de ordenanças na Ribeira Grande, aí morador > e > > em > > > S. Pedro da Ribeira Seca onde morreu a 11.4.1610 (Frutuoso, Livro IV, > > Cap.º > > > XXIV § VIII e Cap.º XLVI § II). De um livro da Misericórdia de Ponta > > > Delgada > > > de 1614, consta que os herdeiros de Nuno de Sousa, da Ribeira Grande, > > devem > > > há muito tempo à Misericórdia de Ponta Delgada um foro e são elas as > > > seguintes: Bárbara de Paiva, Isabel Paim, Madalena de Paiva e Heitor > > > Fernandes, genro. A terra deste foro tinha sido de Simoa Martins, > mulher > > de > > > Pedro Jorge. Casou a primeira vez com Catarina de Moura, irmã do Padre > > > Antonio de Moura, de Ponta Delgada, a qual morreu na freguesia Matriz > da > > > Ribeira Grande a 20.4.1560 com testamento em que deixa a terça a suas > > > filhas > > > e nomeando o marido testamenteiro. Casou a segunda vez com Francisca de > > > Paiva . > > > Teve da primeira mulher: > > > 5 - Jerônima de Sousa, que casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande a > 22.1.1569 > > > com > > > Brás do Rego Rodovalho. > > > > > > CAPÍTULO 18.º > > > DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE GONÇALO DO REGO, O VELHO > > > § 1.º > > > 1 - Gonçalo do Rego, o Velho, veio para S. Miguel no tempo do Capitão > > > Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. Era natural do Porto e veio de lá > > > parece > > > que já viúvo da primeira mulher e com três filhos dela (Frutuoso, Livro > > IV, > > > Cap.º XXII). Casou a segunda vez com Isabel Pires. > > > Teve do 2.º casamento: > > > 2 - Manuel do Rego. Casou com Maria Jerônima. > > > Tiveram: > > > 3 - Braz do Rego Rodovalho, casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande, a > > 22.1.1569, > > > com Jerônima de Sousa. > > > Tiveram: > > > 4 - Gonçalo do Rego de Sousa, que consta do termo de óbito de sua tia > > > Beatriz de Sousa (falecida em S. Pedro Ribeira Grande a 1.2.1611), de > > quem > > > foi herdeiro. Aí se diz ser filho de Jerônima de Sousa. Faleceu na > Matriz > > > de > > > Ponta Delgada a 23.10.1659. Casou Maria da Cunha Teixeira, falecida na > > > Matriz de Ponta Delgada a 10.2.1633, filha de Luís Martins e Isabel da > > > Cunha. > > > Tiveram: > > > 5 - Calisto do Rego e Sousa, batizado na Matriz de Ponta Delgada a > > > 18.10.1627. Casou em S. Pedro de Ponta Delgada, a 10.2.1649, com Maria > > > Cabral de Melo. > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Miguel/Cecce > > > > Re: burgos/viana etc. > > > > Children of Maria de Cairos marry into all of these families, i.e. > > Viana > > > > de Cairos etc. At least in my family! > > > > > > > > José > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > > Henriques > > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 9:01 AM > > > > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:06 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Jose said: It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. > > His > > > > > grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know > > the > > > > > Ferreiras, but it seems odd. > > > > > > > > > > Miguel said:I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You > from > > > > Diogo > > > > > Dias (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > > > > > > > > > Cece says: Looks like both Diogo and Manuel children decided that > > their > > > > > mothers names were "better", because neither became Dias Saldanhas. > > > Diogo > > > > > Dias son is Antonio Ferreira and Manuel Dias son is Matias Andrade > > -so > > > > both > > > > > took Moms name instead. > > > > > > > > > > The point is that both Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias are the sons of > > Pedro > > > > Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. So they were really sons of their > > > mothers > > > > and fathers, and legitimate Saldanhas. The Dias comes from the g. > > parent > > > of > > > > both Diogo and Manuel - Diogo Dias Saldanha, Ouvidor em Machico m. to > > D. > > > > Mara Catanho, dau, of António Vieira, meirinho, and D. Margarida > > Catanho. > > > > > > > > 1.Diogo Saldanha. (Had lands in Santo da Serra,in 149..). > > > > 1.2. Digo Saldanha. (Build the church in that "freguesia", around > 1520) > > > > ..... > > > > 1.3. Gui or Diogo Ennes Saldanha m. 1558 Isabel Fernandes (Quite > > possibly > > > > direct descendant of the former), they had: > > > > 1.4. Diogo Dias Saldanha m. D. Maria Catanho, had from Concórdia > > > Fernandes > > > > (black?): > > > > 1.5. Pedro Dias Saldanha m. Ana Henriques,had > > > > 1.6. Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias (Saldanha) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matias takes the name from her mother, indeed. The Andrades in that > > time > > > > was > > > > a "better" name to use. The Andrades were still on their rise, and > the > > > > Saldanhas beggining their descent. I wonder why they did not use the > > > > Noronha? But once again in that time the Andrade name supplanted the > > > > Noronha. > > > > Manuel Abranches de Soveral, the well known medieval genealogist once > > > told > > > > me that the Henriques name was then prime choice. (Remember that the > > > > Noronhas were Henriques de Noronha). Only later the Noronha name - > > > because > > > > of the rise of Noronhas to the first rank of nobility . came to be > > > > foremost. > > > > > > > > I know that this may sound a bit far-fetched in your hiper-democratic > > > > countries. But the name sensitivity in Portugal was enormous. Still > > > exists, > > > > but of course with the spread of education, nowadays the academic > > titles > > > > count more socially than the historical names. Even só, they still > > carry > > > > some weight, but nothing compared with former centuries. > > > > > > > > Anyway,in the 17 th century (and not only) for the sake of time > economy > > > > sometimes the priests dropped the last name. In social use it was > more > > > > simple to be known by name and surname. Or even by name and locality > > cf, > > > > Tristão da Ilha. João da Ponta. Manuel da Fonte., etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jose said: On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos > e > > > > > Sousa, > > > > > Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > > > > > > > > > Cece says-Tome de Burgos is my ancestor and Manuel de Viana (de > > Caires) > > > > is > > > > > his son in law-married to his daughter Antonia. > > > > > I don't see any familial relationship to Diogo Dias yet, though it > > may > > > be > > > > > there - do you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't see any either. Maybe they did not have any. We already > > discussed > > > > the Burgos, I think. They had a link with the Calaças, And they were > > most > > > > probably from Spain. > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, > > Jose > > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:24 AM > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > You keep up like this and I am going to have to get part of the > > family > > > > > will! > > > > > > > > > > I have heard of the Duke but I don't know or remember where Praça > de > > > > > Saldanha in Lisbon is. However, may I accept your invitation, and > God > > > > > willing or "Oxalá que tenhamos boa saúde e tempo" and we shall meet > > for > > > a > > > > > celebration. > > > > > > > > > > On the Duke you are going to have to work that line for me. > > > > > It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His > grandson > > > > > António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the > > > Ferreiras, > > > > > but it seems odd. > > > > > On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, > > > Manuel > > > > de > > > > > Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > > > > > > > > > José, waiting for that manzanillo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > > Castro > > > > > Henriques > > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:43 AM > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > > > > > Ok. José- > > > > > > > > > > So we have one more couple of ancestors in common! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The name is Pedro. > > > > > I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo Dias > > > > > (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > > > > > > > > > Shall we meet for a coffee and a cup of manzanillo in Praça de > > Saldanha > > > > to > > > > > celebrate? > > > > > > > > > > The Duke is still our cousin, after all ; -) > > > > > > > > > > Bitório was written according to the Northern (North of Portugal) > > > accent. > > > > > They still say baca for vaca, bino for vinho. And Bitório for > Vitório > > > or > > > > > Vitorino. > > > > > > > > > > So he is Vitório or Vitorino Pires. Though the old and "wrong" > (wrong > > > for > > > > > southerners) Bitório is endearing. > > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > And... > > > > > > > > > > > > On Dias Saldanha ( can't decipher his first name) who married Ana > > > > > > Henriques, but I can't find that certificate, his son is Diogo > Dias > > > > > > who marries Maria Ferreira in Caniço, 1651, 902, 225V. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Filipa Do Quintal, this is how it is spelled in their > daughters' > > > > > > marriage certificate (Ana Pires) how do you spell her husband's > > name? > > > > > > Bitorio or is it an old writing for Victorino? > > > > > > > > > > > > José > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in > > > this > > > > > incoming message. > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: > > > > 12/03/09 > > > > > 07:32:00 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

José, Yes, indeed. The Braganças. For instance of all the sons that D.João VI and Carlota Joaquina had, only one seems to have been really his son. This happened during the times of Napoleon, the fiery emperor. In several books of historians (both brazilian and Portuguese) there are passages inquiring who might have been the father of Dom Miguel: the gardener? The Marquis of Marialva? An anon? problem with Ana Henriques is that Henriques, is a rather common name. But I think the methodology for finding her that you're using is Ok. Check all the Ana Henriques of that time (and place, in this case Madeira) and see whether one of them is a widow. Because there should exist a register of the marriage of Pedro Dias and Ana Henriques. Anyway Ana Henriques and Pedro Dias Saldanha married around 160 and 1622...) So she is certainlyh not the Ana Henriques that marries your ancestor Sebastião Dias. But the second Ana H. married to a Francisco (Francisco who?) could fit, chronologically speaking. João de Abreu her father could be João de Abreu Henriques, there were some Abreus Henriques, especially from Cãmara de Lobos. Paulo being a descendant of these Henriques (I suppose) as well of the others (the Gomes Henriques) may know something about this. I am going to ask for Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias (Saldanha) baptism certificates. On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > Let's not forget the Braganças... > Please let me know if you get anywhere with Ana Henriques. Note that there > is a Ana Henriques who is a window by 1662. She marries Sebastião Dias, > Caniço, 1662, 902, 239vo. I have that certificate, because Sebastião is a > brother to my ancestor Jorge Dias and my great (7) grandfather Inácio > Fernandes, if I have got all of this correct!. > There is a Ana Henriques married to Francisco sometime in 1640's. She must > be the same one. She is the daughter of João de Abreu and Angela Rodrigues. > I can't find this marriage in Caniço. There is João de Abreu married to > Angela Lopes in Arco da Calheta in 1617. > Is that Angela, a Lopes de Sá? > In 1676 Sebastião's brother João marries Maria de Santiago who is said to > be a daughter of Ana Heriques (Francisco is dead at this time) so it seems > that it is from her first marriage. > Our Ana is married to Saldanha sometime in 1625. Can you make a connection? > I said above that I estimate her marriage between 1600 and 162...But I still can+t make a connection. Thanks for the input, it remains a possibility. Best regards,, Miguel > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 4:35 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) > > José, > > However bastard lines were quite common, even the Portuguese Royal House, > had bastards who became Kings (Like D. João I, the first of the Avis line). > In the Case of noble lines, like the Saldanhas,bastards would not have > sucxh > delicate feelings for the other legitimate sons, and they would not > hesitate > in using that name. (that was in some sort a redemption from being > bastards) > - And they were legal Saldanhas, anyway., because there was not at all any > discirmination. If your father had such and such a name, the children could > and would use it regardless of the mother. As was the case with Pedro Dias > Saldanha who used the full and traditional name of the Saldanha's. Just > remember that it was an archi.patriarchal society. The ma's line was the > line tat counted. The mother's line only counted if she was noble. > > Anyway what I´m now looking for is from what family was Ana Henriques, his > wife (the wife iof Pedro Dias de Saldanha). > > As Manuel Dias (Saldanha) marriage with Maria de Andrada, descendant of the > Noronha, proves, the Saldanhas, even bastards , could afford marriages with > descendants of the" Capitão Donatário", which means the highest nobility in > Madeira. It was a small Island. Everyone knew its place. These things meant > a lot in these days. Status was measured and transmitted in the minutest > way. Democracy and concepts (and practice) of social equality would only > come 4 centuries later. Even so, even in our days, one cannot say that > nowadays it's all utopic and flowery. Other social barriers, others > snobbishness have arised. > > > > > > > > > > > > i > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > On the Saldanhas...still > > The fact is that our Pedro Dias Saldanha came from a bastard line. so > they > > weren't 'legal" Saldanhas. I am not sure that the other children would > > appreciate that. That may explain why they dropped the Saldanha name. > > > > José > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 10:56 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Souas da Ribeira Grande, (was Ordonhes e Cairos) > > > > OK. I retrieved the Sousas from Ribeira Grande, > > Miguel de Castro Henriques to prt-madeira > > show details Jan 22 > > > > To all who descend from the Burgos, > > > > Manuel César Furtado, a genealogist who knows a lot about Açores > genealogy > > and medieval genealogy, kindly sent me this. > > > > Check the names in bold. > > > > Remember that Jerónimo de Sousa's, from Ribeira Grande, S.Miguel, Açores, > ( > > m. Maria de Sá) parents were Simão Martins and Leonor de Sousa. > > > > It might be possible that Leonor Manuel is the mother of our Leonor de > > Sousa. > > Cronologically and topologically it's quite fitting. > > > > > > Then Simoa Martins married to Pedro Jorge and owner of a land with "foro" > > could be the mother of Simâo Martins, husband of Leonor de Sousa. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CAPÍTULO 132.º > > DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE IREZA DE SOUSA > > § 1.º > > 1 - Ireza de Sousa, natural da Irlanda, no dizer de Frutuoso, e dama da > > rainha D. Leonor (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § I). Casou em Portugal > com > > um fidalgo, cujo nome Frutuoso não soube, o qual era morador em Souzel, > > donde veio para a Ilha de S. Miguel por matar um corregedor, fixando > > residência com sua mulher em Vila Franca e depois no Telhal da Lomba da > > Ribeira Grande. Ireza de Sousa e seu marido vieram para esta Ilha no > tempo > > do Capitão Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. > > Tiveram: > > 2 - João de Sousa, que esteve em África no tempo de el-rei D. Manuel, > onde > > foi armado Cavaleiro (Frutuoso Livro IV Cap.º XXIV § III e V). Casou com > > Isabel Alvares, mulher nobre. > > Tiveram: > > 3 - Baltazar Vaz de Sousa, foi morador na Ribeira Grande, ao Telhal e > > morreu > > em Porto Seguro, no Brasil (Vide os seus feitos no Cap.º XXIV do Livro IV > > das Saudades da Terra, e também no Cap.º LXI do mesmo Livro, onde se vê > que > > era magarefe). Sua mulher morreu na freguesia da Matriz da Ribeira Grande > a > > 13.4.1654 com testamento, sendo testamenteiro seu filho João de Sousa. > > Casou > > com Leonor Manuel. > > Tiveram: > > 4 - Nuno de Sousa, Capitão de ordenanças na Ribeira Grande, aí morador e > em > > S. Pedro da Ribeira Seca onde morreu a 11.4.1610 (Frutuoso, Livro IV, > Cap.º > > XXIV § VIII e Cap.º XLVI § II). De um livro da Misericórdia de Ponta > > Delgada > > de 1614, consta que os herdeiros de Nuno de Sousa, da Ribeira Grande, > devem > > há muito tempo à Misericórdia de Ponta Delgada um foro e são elas as > > seguintes: Bárbara de Paiva, Isabel Paim, Madalena de Paiva e Heitor > > Fernandes, genro. A terra deste foro tinha sido de Simoa Martins, mulher > de > > Pedro Jorge. Casou a primeira vez com Catarina de Moura, irmã do Padre > > Antonio de Moura, de Ponta Delgada, a qual morreu na freguesia Matriz da > > Ribeira Grande a 20.4.1560 com testamento em que deixa a terça a suas > > filhas > > e nomeando o marido testamenteiro. Casou a segunda vez com Francisca de > > Paiva . > > Teve da primeira mulher: > > 5 - Jerônima de Sousa, que casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande a 22.1.1569 > > com > > Brás do Rego Rodovalho. > > > > CAPÍTULO 18.º > > DA DESCENDÊNCIA DE GONÇALO DO REGO, O VELHO > > § 1.º > > 1 - Gonçalo do Rego, o Velho, veio para S. Miguel no tempo do Capitão > > Donatário João Rodrigues da Câmara. Era natural do Porto e veio de lá > > parece > > que já viúvo da primeira mulher e com três filhos dela (Frutuoso, Livro > IV, > > Cap.º XXII). Casou a segunda vez com Isabel Pires. > > Teve do 2.º casamento: > > 2 - Manuel do Rego. Casou com Maria Jerônima. > > Tiveram: > > 3 - Braz do Rego Rodovalho, casou na Matriz da Ribeira Grande, a > 22.1.1569, > > com Jerônima de Sousa. > > Tiveram: > > 4 - Gonçalo do Rego de Sousa, que consta do termo de óbito de sua tia > > Beatriz de Sousa (falecida em S. Pedro Ribeira Grande a 1.2.1611), de > quem > > foi herdeiro. Aí se diz ser filho de Jerônima de Sousa. Faleceu na Matriz > > de > > Ponta Delgada a 23.10.1659. Casou Maria da Cunha Teixeira, falecida na > > Matriz de Ponta Delgada a 10.2.1633, filha de Luís Martins e Isabel da > > Cunha. > > Tiveram: > > 5 - Calisto do Rego e Sousa, batizado na Matriz de Ponta Delgada a > > 18.10.1627. Casou em S. Pedro de Ponta Delgada, a 10.2.1649, com Maria > > Cabral de Melo. > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Miguel/Cecce > > > Re: burgos/viana etc. > > > Children of Maria de Cairos marry into all of these families, i.e. > Viana > > > de Cairos etc. At least in my family! > > > > > > José > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 9:01 AM > > > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:06 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > Jose said: It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. > His > > > > grandson António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know > the > > > > Ferreiras, but it seems odd. > > > > > > > > Miguel said:I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from > > > Diogo > > > > Dias (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > > > > > > > Cece says: Looks like both Diogo and Manuel children decided that > their > > > > mothers names were "better", because neither became Dias Saldanhas. > > Diogo > > > > Dias son is Antonio Ferreira and Manuel Dias son is Matias Andrade > -so > > > both > > > > took Moms name instead. > > > > > > > > The point is that both Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias are the sons of > Pedro > > > Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques. So they were really sons of their > > mothers > > > and fathers, and legitimate Saldanhas. The Dias comes from the g. > parent > > of > > > both Diogo and Manuel - Diogo Dias Saldanha, Ouvidor em Machico m. to > D. > > > Mara Catanho, dau, of António Vieira, meirinho, and D. Margarida > Catanho. > > > > > > 1.Diogo Saldanha. (Had lands in Santo da Serra,in 149..). > > > 1.2. Digo Saldanha. (Build the church in that "freguesia", around 1520) > > > ..... > > > 1.3. Gui or Diogo Ennes Saldanha m. 1558 Isabel Fernandes (Quite > possibly > > > direct descendant of the former), they had: > > > 1.4. Diogo Dias Saldanha m. D. Maria Catanho, had from Concórdia > > Fernandes > > > (black?): > > > 1.5. Pedro Dias Saldanha m. Ana Henriques,had > > > 1.6. Manuel Dias and Diogo Dias (Saldanha) > > > > > > > > > > > > Matias takes the name from her mother, indeed. The Andrades in that > time > > > was > > > a "better" name to use. The Andrades were still on their rise, and the > > > Saldanhas beggining their descent. I wonder why they did not use the > > > Noronha? But once again in that time the Andrade name supplanted the > > > Noronha. > > > Manuel Abranches de Soveral, the well known medieval genealogist once > > told > > > me that the Henriques name was then prime choice. (Remember that the > > > Noronhas were Henriques de Noronha). Only later the Noronha name - > > because > > > of the rise of Noronhas to the first rank of nobility . came to be > > > foremost. > > > > > > I know that this may sound a bit far-fetched in your hiper-democratic > > > countries. But the name sensitivity in Portugal was enormous. Still > > exists, > > > but of course with the spread of education, nowadays the academic > titles > > > count more socially than the historical names. Even só, they still > carry > > > some weight, but nothing compared with former centuries. > > > > > > Anyway,in the 17 th century (and not only) for the sake of time economy > > > sometimes the priests dropped the last name. In social use it was more > > > simple to be known by name and surname. Or even by name and locality > cf, > > > Tristão da Ilha. João da Ponta. Manuel da Fonte., etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jose said: On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e > > > > Sousa, > > > > Manuel de Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > > > > > > > Cece says-Tome de Burgos is my ancestor and Manuel de Viana (de > Caires) > > > is > > > > his son in law-married to his daughter Antonia. > > > > I don't see any familial relationship to Diogo Dias yet, though it > may > > be > > > > there - do you? > > > > > > > > > > I don't see any either. Maybe they did not have any. We already > discussed > > > the Burgos, I think. They had a link with the Calaças, And they were > most > > > probably from Spain. > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, > Jose > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:24 AM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > You keep up like this and I am going to have to get part of the > family > > > > will! > > > > > > > > I have heard of the Duke but I don't know or remember where Praça de > > > > Saldanha in Lisbon is. However, may I accept your invitation, and God > > > > willing or "Oxalá que tenhamos boa saúde e tempo" and we shall meet > for > > a > > > > celebration. > > > > > > > > On the Duke you are going to have to work that line for me. > > > > It is somewhat funny that the name Saldanha was dropped. His grandson > > > > António Ferreira( my 7th), takes his mother's name. I know the > > Ferreiras, > > > > but it seems odd. > > > > On Diogo Dias marriage the witnesses were Tomé de Burgos e Sousa, > > Manuel > > > de > > > > Viana e Viana de Cairos. Must have been quite an event! > > > > > > > > José, waiting for that manzanillo > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > Castro > > > > Henriques > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 10:43 AM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Ordonhes e Cairos > > > > > > > > Ok. José- > > > > > > > > So we have one more couple of ancestors in common! > > > > > > > > > > > > The name is Pedro. > > > > I descend from Manuel Dias (Saldanha), his son. You from Diogo Dias > > > > (Saldanha), his other son. Both married in the same year 1651. > > > > > > > > Shall we meet for a coffee and a cup of manzanillo in Praça de > Saldanha > > > to > > > > celebrate? > > > > > > > > The Duke is still our cousin, after all ; -) > > > > > > > > Bitório was written according to the Northern (North of Portugal) > > accent. > > > > They still say baca for vaca, bino for vinho. And Bitório for Vitório > > or > > > > Vitorino. > > > > > > > > So he is Vitório or Vitorino Pires. Though the old and "wrong" (wrong > > for > > > > southerners) Bitório is endearing. > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > And... > > > > > > > > > > On Dias Saldanha ( can't decipher his first name) who married Ana > > > > > Henriques, but I can't find that certificate, his son is Diogo Dias > > > > > who marries Maria Ferreira in Caniço, 1651, 902, 225V. > > > > > > > > > > On Filipa Do Quintal, this is how it is spelled in their daughters' > > > > > marriage certificate (Ana Pires) how do you spell her husband's > name? > > > > > Bitorio or is it an old writing for Victorino? > > > > > > > > > > José > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in > > this > > > > incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.91/2541 - Release Date: > > > 12/03/09 > > > > 07:32:00 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Miguel etal., With all the talk of the founding families and history of Madeira etc., can you suggest a reading list that will enlighten me? Also how readily available are the genealogical works that you all mention so often, Clode, HHN etc. If not available in hard copy what about on the net. Thank you for all the wonderful education and enlightenment on my ancestors. Cheers, Lou -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 12:11 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION Sebastiana appears as "Dona" Sebastiana, in the ARM - it shows she had some status as well as her husband. Try to explore the França de Andrade line. I think it's your high road and link to medieval times..Bon voyage! regards, Miguel On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > Hope all is well with you. No I have not explored that line yet and yes > Sebastiana is the daughter of Manuel and Catarina #4. > > Cheers, > Lou > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 10:39 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > Hello Lou, > > > The nª 4 Vicente de França de Andrada has a similar name to some Brasões > Teixeiras and Brasões Gouveias from S. Vicente. Have you explored his line? > Somehow he must be of the Franças and of the Andrades. > > In 4. Is it Sebastina de A. de dau. of the nº 3 ? > > Regards, > > Miguel > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 1:14 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> wrote: > > > 1. Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira (ca. 1590, marriage not > > recorded in Ribeira Brava) > > > > 2. Francisco Rodrigues Duarte + Ines Martins(1) (Ribeira Brava, 16 > > Sept > > 1614 – B#389, fl 153) > > > > 3. Manuel Duarte(2) + Catarina de Abreu (widow) (Ribeira Brava, 27 > Aug > > 1640 – B#390, fl 41) > > > > 4. Vicente de Franca de Andrade + Sebastiana de Abreu(3) (Sao > Vicente, > > 5 Feb 1670 – B#579, fl 53) > > > > 5. Vicente de Franca(4) + Maria de Sa (Sao Vicente, 3 Sept 1696 – > > B#556, fl 63) > > > > 6. Basilio Pestana + Josefa de Franca(5) (Serra de Agua, 13 June > 1735 > > – > > B#409, fl 24) > > > > 7. Francisco de Andrade(6) + Maria dos Reis (Serra de Agua, 20 Feb > > 1770 > > – B#409, fl 79) > > > > 8. Manuel de Andrade Silva(7) + Ana Maria (Serra de Agua, 30 Jan > 1815 > > – > > B#411, fl 8) > > > > 9. Manuel Pestana de Gouveia + Delfina Maria(8) (Serra de Agua, 9 > July > > 1849 – B#411, fl 110) > > > > 10. Joao de Abreu Amarelo(widower) + Delfina da Conceicao(9) Serra de > > Agua, 13 April 1891 – R#6) > > > > 11. Antonio Neves de Abreu Amarelo(10) + Carolina de Sousa da Camara > > (Ponta do Sol, 3 Feb 1916 –R#2) > > > > 12. Louis Neves Abreu(11) + Maria Pita (Lowell, Massachusetts USA, 9 > > April 1939) > > > > 13. Louis Neves Abreu Jr(12) + Pauline Alice Genest (Lowell, > > Massachusetts USA, 7 Sept 1959) > > > > 14. Louis Neves Abreu III(13) + Deborah Elaine Bourgeois (Lowell, > > Massachusetts, USA 20 Oct 1979) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:30 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > yes..it helps a lot. do u have the ancestors of ines? im also descendant > of > > the homem family in ribeira brava > > > > thank you > > > > leandro > > > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 1:25:11 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > Leandro, > > Okay I see the confusion, let me explain > > > > Ines Martin's Parents are Francisco Goncalves Homem and Isabel Pereira > > (marriage not recorded in Ribeira Brava) > > > > I hope that clears up the confusion. > > > > Lou > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 6:32 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > hi lou, my doubt is on the children of pedro afonso and leonor homem. > > > > im descended from their dau ines afonso married with fernao anes. But > pat > > said that you have their dau as ines martins married with francisco > > rodrigues duarte. im really confused about that :) > > > > leandro > > > > > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 12:06:49 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > Leandro, > > I am not sure which line we are talking about here, sorry I am a little > > spun around on this one, what do you need clarified. > > > > Lou > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > [email protected] > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 4:58 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > Thank you Pat > > > > Lou...can u pls clarify this line for us please? > > > > Thank you > > > > Leandro > > > > > > In a message dated 12/5/2009 10:54:59 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > Leandro, > > > > Not sure if this is the same "person." > > > > The only Pedro Afonso (Cavaleiro) I have is married to Leonor Homem, > > with > > the children that I mentioned in my posting attention Miguel and Lou. > > > > I don't have Pedro's parents, but Leonor's parents are Joao Homem (de > > Monte Gordo) and Catarina Vaz. > > > > Hopefully Miguel and/or Paulo will be able to add to this thread. > > > > Ines Martins is Lou's ancestor... > > > > I must admit I'm more confused now than when I first started my > > genealogy > > quest many, many "moons," ago. I'm finding that what was is not > > now...Frustrating to say the least. > > > > I'm trying to sort out Jorge Pinto and Leonor de Atouguia da Costa's > > line...my info differs from what's in Norhonha- titulo: Pintos... > > Nothing > > consent but the state of change...;-))). > > > > Pat > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: [email protected] > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:08:24 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada > Pacific > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > Pat, > > > > I have Pedro afonso and leonor de sousa having a daughter called INES > > AFONSO and not ines martins. also she is married to fernao anes and > not > > to francisco duarte. Are we talking about the same person on here? or > > am i mistaken? > > > > Also, Lou, can you send me on my private email [email protected] the > > descendency list of manuel duarte and guiomar camacho please? > > > > Thank you > > > > Leandro > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Sat, Dec 5, 2009 12:27 pm > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > Pat, > > You are correct with the marriage record, however, his baptismal > > record (11 Dec 1586 b#376,fl 202) as recorded by Dr. Mello, list his > > full name as Francisco Rodrigues Duarte. His line from there is as > > follows > > > > Parents Manuel Duarte + Guiomar Camacha Ribeira Brava Nov 26 1584 > > > > Manuel's Parents Francisco Duarte + Maria Fernandes Ribeira Brava May > > 22 1560 > > > > Guiomar's Parents Francisco Rodrigues Camacho + Catarina Pestana > > > > Does this answer your questions? > > > > > > Regards, > > Lou > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera > > Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:40 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION (Miguel and Lou) > > > > Miguel, > > > > Isn't Pedro Afonso who is married to Leonor Homem one of your direct > > line ancestors? > > > > Their son Francisco Homem D'El-Rei is my direct line ancestors, and if > > my notes/memory serves me correctly Francisco's brother Fernao Ennes > is > > your ancestor... > > > > If the above is correct will you please share the descending order > from > > > > Fernao Ennes to you... > > > > > > Pat > > > > p.s. Lou do you have this marriage record that you referenced below? > > On the Madeira Archives listing for this marriage, the couples' names > > are Ines Martins and Francisco Rodrigues...where did you get the > Duarte > > name from? > > > > >Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is > > > mentioned in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco > > Rodrigues Duarte on >16 Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" <[email protected] > > > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:43:30 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada > Pacific > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > Lou, > > > > Sorry if I disturbed you. I'm in learn mode too, and will forever be. > > For us > > living in Portugal they are quite normal, I would say totally expected > > names > > from that time, place and circunstances. And most of them, if not all > > (Frutuoso may have disappeared) are still used today by many people. > > > > So Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from Ribeira Brava. He must be from > the > > Homens known to have lived in that place. That's a start. I also have > > Homens > > from RB and they certainly are all from the same family. As we know > > there > > are four main sources for the name Homem . either Homem de Sousa, > Homem > > de > > Gouveia, Homem d'El-Rei and simply Homem ( not so simple at all, > > because a > > simple Homem may have the name of one of the other three types). > > > > In any case the Homem (meaning Man, actually it's a toponymic taken > > from > > people living close to the river Homem) or Homens (plural) are a very > > ancient Portuguese family. > > > > > > Well, I hope I was of some help, > > > > Best regards, > > > > Miguel > > > > PS Who were Álvaro Rodirgues parents? And the witness of his marriage > > to > > Maria Lopes? > > > > Lopes being a patronymic,from Lopo, at one point Maria has a Lopo > as > > ascendant. > > > > Feel free to ask any question you'd like to. > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 2:42 AM, Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > Miguel > > > Forgive me, the names seem strange to me, I am still in learn mode > > and > > > have not seen these names on the list that often if at all. > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem is not listed has having a parish, he is > > > mentioned > > > in his daughter Ines martins marriage to Francisco Rodrigues Duarte > > on 16 > > > Sept 1614, Ribeira Brava (book #389,Fl 153) > > > > > > Domingos Anes and Branca Afonco are mentioned in their daughter > Maria > > Lopes > > > marriage to Alvaro Rodrigues 21 Feb 1569, Ponta do Sol (book #454, > fl > > 81) > > > > > > Regards, > > > Lou > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > Castro > > > Henriques > > > Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 6:35 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] GROUP QUESTION > > > > > > Hello Lu, > > > > > > Strange ones, how come? They all seem quite normal ones - I mean > > typical > > > names from these times. > > > > > > Francisco Gonçalves Homem is from what parish? > > > and Domingos Nunes m, Branca Afonso? She could be a Drummond. Any > > Drummond > > > or Escórcio witness in her marriage certificate, or his son or > > daughter ? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Lou Abreu III < > [email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > All, > > > > I have the following that appear to be dead ends so I am sending > > them > > > out > > > > to the group to see if anyone has these names, any help or hints > are > > > > appreciated. > > > > > > > > Gaspar Dias + Ana Rodrigues dates not recorded, dwelling: Lugar de > > Baixo > > > > > > > > Antao Serradas + Maria Rodrigues dates not recorded > > > > > > > > Goncalo Dias + Margarida Rodrigues Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > > > Gregorio Sardinha + Isabel Fernandes dates not recorded > > > > > > > > Catarina Dias + Baltasar Fernandes Ponta do Sol? Prior to 1568 > > > > > > > > Frutuoso Enes + Cecilia Frenandes ca. 1570 > > > > > > > > Apolonia Dias + Pedro Goncalos Ponta do Sol May 12 1573 > > > > > > > > Joao Pires + Maria Fernandes Ponta do Sol Nov 29 1580 > > > > > > > > Domingos Anes + Branca Afonco > > > > > > > > Francisco Goncalves Homem + Isabel Pereira ca. 1590 > > > > > > > > As you can see I have some strange ones so anything is welcomed. > > > > > > > > Lou > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > quotes in the subject > > and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > quotes in the subject > > and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject > > and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject > > and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message