Boas Festas para esta estacao Natalicia. Desejo-vos todos Paz, Amor e Alegria para 2010. Cumprimentos Paula Fernandes

On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < [email protected]> wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 2:50 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > >> OK I knew that was too much in one post ;-) - so I'm gonna break it down >> and start with the first one: >> >> You say "João Fernandes Lordelo m. Isabel Teixeira,, dau, of Tristão Vaz, >> the first Capitão-Mor. Had one dau and one son: Henrique Fernandes de >> Lordelo m. Guiomar escórcio, dau of João Drummond and Branca Afonso." >> >> Agreed - and the daughters name was Guiomar de Lordelo who married Joao de >> Freitas Correa >> > > I also have that one too, from several sources: HHN, Felisberto, Menses > Vaz, etc. > > >> >> amd continue.."There was also a Lopo de Lordelo, Knight, who married a N. >> Teixeira, according to Pereira de Agrela. This N. Teixeira was the sister of >> the 3d Captain." >> >> I show this Lopo as a brother to Joao Fernandes Lordelo - is that the same >> as what you show? >> > > Yes the same. But not all the genealogists refer him. Pereira d'Agrela > does. > > >> And are you also saying that he married a N. Teixeira who is the sister >> of Tristao TEIXEIRA who married Dona Grimaneza CABRAL. >> > > Those Teixeiras were many and each one had loads of children. To add to the > confusion different Teixeira brothers with different names would give the > same name to their children - and this is one of the big sources of > confusion lasting until today. > > >> If so, she is new to me. I have 4 children listed for Tristao VAZ TEIXEIRA >> (2nd capitao) and Dona Guiomar de LORDELO. >> They are Joao Lourenco de Teixeira, Guiterres Teixeira, Dona Violante >> Teixeira & of course Tristao Teixeira (the 3rd capitao),,,and now this N. >> Teixeira will make 5. >> > > I supopose that Pereira de Agrela is explicit. He insists that Beatriz de > Lordelo married to Martim Correia de Miranda is the "niece" of the 3d > Capºitão Mor de Machico. > > Clode also stresses the fact that the Correias de Mirandas were links, > first of all to the Teixeiras. > > > >> Any more I don't know about? >> > > I hope I'll give you more trouble, soon! ; -))) > > As I say genealogy is a fleeting or shifting reality, and the nobiliaries > are fine but riddled with some ("some"... to be mild) confusion. What can we > do when we have no other documents? Surf around the several nobiliaries and > books of History and check them against each other- Though in Madeira, apart > 2 or 3 that were original work most nobiliaries copied without investigation > what the other nob.said. > > > Cheers, > > Miguel > > >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Miguel de Castro Henriques [mailto: >> [email protected]] >> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 22, 2009 8:20 PM >> *To:* [email protected]; [email protected] >> *Subject:* Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Link to Morgado da Bemposta >> >> Hello Cece, >> >> I got part of my data from Pereira de Agrela, Clode and Felisberto BM. >> >> About Beatriz de Lordelo and her connection to the Teixeiras: >> >> João Fernandes Lordelo m. Isabel Teixeira,, dau, of Tristão Vaz, the first >> Capitão-Mor. Had one dau and one son: Henrique Fernandes de Lordelo m. >> Guiomar escórcio, dau of João Drummond and Branca Afonso. >> There was also a Lopo de Lordelo, Knight, who married a N. Teixeira, >> according to Pereira de Agrela. This N. Teixeira was the sister of the 3d >> Captain. >> >> On other hand according to Clode, Tristão Teixeira, o das Damas, the 2nd >> Captain married D. Guiomar de Lordelo, probably a sister of his cunhado João >> Fernandes de Lordelo, and they had issue.. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 1:31 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> You lost me - it seems almost every one of the posts today have me >>> dancing >>> very closely to someone in my tree...but not quite touching ;-) >>> So allow me to start with your quote below " Beatriz de Lordelo, and this >>> same Beatriz the niece of Tristão Teixeira"... >>> Please show me this connection. >>> >>> And second regarding your quote "* António Fernandes das Covas,( son of >>> Paulo António or António Paulo, a Jewish MD who was extremely rich, had >>> slaves, an "engenho", etc)) married 2 nd time in that very same year >>> Maria >>> de Velosa de Vasconcelos. dau. of Francisco Velosa de Vasconcelos and >>> Maria >>> de Gayas" >>> I also have Antonio Fernandes das Covas and Maria de Velosa de >>> Vasconcelos. >>> But I show Maria to be the daughter of Irvao Teixiera and Dona Maria de >>> Velosa (this from Pelo Conego Meneses Vaz, Teixeiras de Tristao Vaz, >>> Familias da Madeira e Porto Santo,pg 149). >>> >>> >> According to HHN título Teixeiras we have a different story; >> >> § 14.º / >> >> >> >> N.º 4 – Manuel Teixeira de Vasconcellos, filho 2.º / de >> Antonio Teixei- ra, o Rei Pequeno, § 11.º, N.º 3.º / >> >> Casou com Anna de Vellosa, filha de Fran- / cisco de >> Vellosa, o velho, e de Catharina Vaz Tavares, / em titulo de Vellosas, >> § 2.º, N.º 2.º / >> >> >> >> De quem houve. / >> >> >> >> 5 – Francisco de Vellosa de Vasconcellos. / >> >> 5 – D. Constança de Mendônça, mulher de João / de Ornellas de Moura, >> filho de João de Or- / nellas, e de D. Cecilia de Moura, em titulo / de >> Ornellas, § ...., N.º...../ >> >> 5 – Francisco De Vellosa de Vasconcellos, filho 1.º de / Manuel >> Teixeira de Vasconcellos. / >> >> Casou com Maria de Gaias, Viuva de Agos- / tinho de Goes de >> Vas- concellos, seu primo, n’este / titulo, § 11.º, N.º 5.º, e filha de >> Braz Gonçal- / ves, e de Maria d’a Conceição. / >> >> >> >> De quem houve. / >> >> >> >> 6 – Francisco de Vellosa de Vasconcellos. / >> >> 6 – Uma filha casada com Antonio Fernandes / que foi morador n’o >> Faial, e fôrão paes de: / >> >> ANTÓNIO FERNANDES DAS COVAS,. MORADOR NO FAIAL. >> >> >> 7 – Uma filha, casada com Antonio Vaz / Leite, c. g. / >> >> >> >> >>> I was thinking about asking about this quote as well "This last >>> Francisco >>> de Miranda de Lordelo is one of the first Correias de Miranda in Madeira >>> and >>> is well known.As well as the Lordelo name.I won't discuss here their >>> genealogy now. Which is controversial, at least for one of them"...but >>> decided this is probably too much for one posting ;-) >>> >> >> I'LL ANSWER THAT TOMORROW ; -))) >> >> >> MIGUEL de CH >> >> >> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >>> Henriques >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:06 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Link to Morgado da Bemposta >>> >>> As direct ancestors of my paternal gg.mother Eulália Rosa (Corrêa de >>> Miranda) I have (several generations before) in the beggining of the 17 >>> th >>> century (1610): >>> >>> Francisco Lopes Borralho m.(Faial, 1610) Catarina Corrêa, she daughter of >>> Francisco de Miranda de Lordelo and Antónia Jorge. This last Francisco de >>> Miranda de Lordelo is one of the first Correias de Miranda in Madeira and >>> is >>> well known.As well as the Lordelo name. I won't discuss here their >>> genealogy now. Which is controversial, at least for one of them. >>> >>> Only recently I became aware that the Lopes Borralho name, quite unusual >>> in >>> that time (and even after) probably comes from João Lopes Franco (son of >>> Lopo Franco de Monção married Catarina Annes Escudeiro niece of João >>> Afonso >>> Escudeiro, the 1st Morgado da Bemposta) and Jerónima Borralho. >>> >>> But I had a one generation gap. Then I found in Pereira de Agrela one >>> Diogo >>> Lopes Tavares, Morgado de São Lázaro ( son of João Lopes Franco, Morgado >>> da >>> Bemposta) and Jerónima Borralho- dau. of Gomes da Ponte, son of Jordão >>> de >>> Ponte and Filipa Tavares, and another Jerónima Borralho. (This >>> FilipaTavares >>> is an important piece of the puzzle, it explains why the Morgados da >>> Bemposta used a coat of arms quartered with the Tavares' arms. She was >>> the >>> dau of Fernão Enes - I think he was called "O do bons vinhos. great!) and >>> Catarina Vaz Tavares, this last one dau of Vasco Esteves and Joana >>> Tavares.) >>> >>> Anyway That Diogo Lopes Tavares married (1580) Antónia de Abreu Escórcio- >>> (dau. of António Lopes Libraleão and Mecia de Abreu Escórcio, dau of João >>> Escórcio and Isabel Calaça- (the Libraleão possibly or maybe definetely >>> Jewish) (interesting detail, because of one of the godparents. See below. >>> * >>> >>> My feeling is that Diogo LT and Antónia AE. are the parents of my >>> Francisco >>> Lopes Borralho. The chronology fits, the names too, the social milieu >>> too. >>> >>> Catarina Correia the wife of Francisco Lopes Borralho was the g. dau, of >>> D. >>> Beatriz de Lordelo, and this same Beatriz the niece of Tristão Teixeira, >>> 3 d >>> Capitão-Mor de Machico. >>> >>> The witness or quite possibly godparents of the marriage document (quite >>> damaged, can't read it clearly in some parts) of Francisco Lopes Borralho >>> and Catarina Corrêa, were Jordão de Freitas m. Beatriz Spínola. Jordão >>> had a >>> Lordelo as ancestor. >>> And the other witness is the famous >>> >>> * António Fernandes das Covas,( son of Paulo António or António Paulo, a >>> Jewish MD who was extremely rich, had slaves, an "engenho", etc)) married >>> 2 >>> nd time in that very same year Maria de Velosa de Vasconcelos. dau. of >>> Francisco Velosa de Vasconcelos and Maria de Gayas- These Gayas, though >>> noble, were most probably of Jewish origin too. This Francisco Velosa de >>> Vasconcelos was also descendant of Catarina Vaz Tavares, thus Maria >>> Velosa >>> the wife of António Fernandes das Covas (the godfather) was a relative >>> of >>> the groom. And also a descendant of the Teixeiras, thus a relative of the >>> bride as well. >>> >>> So I think this is it. I guess that all this makes sense. The social >>> milieu, >>> the Jewish connection, the adjustment of the names. As a matter of fact >>> the >>> Borralho name is very very rare. Only 7 Borralhos appear in the ARM >>> database, and they seem to be all related - and linked to Jerónima >>> Borralho, >>> m. (1535 more or less) to João Lopes Franco Escudeiro, the Morgado da >>> Bemposta. >>> >>> What do you think? >>> >>> Probably some more people in here have Corrêas or Correias de Miranda and >>> possibly they'll have a link to these people too. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> >>> Miguel de CH >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this >>> incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.116/2580 - Release Date: >>> 12/22/09 >>> 08:09:00 >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.116/2580 - Release Date: >> 12/22/09 18:22:00 >> > >

Haha you are amazing Miguel!! And thank your cousin for me too :)   Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator ________________________________ From: Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 7:50:17 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Antao Escorcio de Vasconcelos Luis, You're really a lucky person, aren't you? I am having a discussion about Calaças and Castros with a cousin of mine, and today, bingo. in the mail she sent me there is a reference to your people. So here we go. Águeda de Vasconcelos , dau, of Antão Escórcio and Maria Teixeira. Paternal gd. of João Escórcio de Vasconcelos and Filipa de Barcos. You're a case of "insolent" good  luck ; -)) ! Cheers, Miguel On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 2:07 AM, Luis Beal <[email protected]> wrote: > So they are only listed because their children married someone from those > families? I was hoping it would list the parents of either so I could go > farther back on that line. > > Thanks a ton Miguel, > > Luis Beal > > "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a > child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the > life of our ancestors." > Cicero, Roman orator > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tue, December 22, 2009 5:34:49 PM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Antao Escorcio de Vasconcelos > > Luis, > > In FMPS (título Buarcos or Barcos) pg. 317, there is a reference of Antão > Escórcio and Maria Teixeira Mourato, em título de Escórcio Salazar.  They > married around 162,,, > > They had a son, João Escórcio who married ( 1646)Filipa de Barcos, from the > Barcos. > > They are certainly your people. > > > Miguel > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Luis Beal <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Does anyone have any info on Antao Escorcio de Vasconcelos married to > Maria > > Teixeira sometime before 1630? They are the parents of my Maria Escorcio > > married to Pedro Moniz da Camara, and my 9th g-g.parents. Das Artes e da > > Historia lists them under the title Buarcos but I do not have that page > :( > > Can't find them on the arquivo either. > > Thanks, > > > > Luis Beal > > > > "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a > > child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the > > life of our ancestors." > > Cicero, Roman orator > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Mary Frost <[email protected]> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Tue, December 22, 2009 1:40:18 PM > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] People from Gaula > > > > Hello Miguel: > > I have some data on file that includes your people. > > First- Pedro Goncalves who married Maria Jorge 1649 Gaula-occupation? > > Caxaxo > > Was the son of Pedro Goncalves a slave and Maria da Mata (deceased athe > > time > > of the wedding). Maria Jorge was the daughter of Francisco Fernandes and > > Ana > > Jorge. > > I have wedding information on three of their children, including the > > marriage of Andre Martins da Mata and Simoa da Mata 1690. > > Does this help you? > > Mary da Silva Frost > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:18 AM > > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] People from Gaula > > > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Am looking for Pedro Gonçalves m ( 1649 Gaula) Maria Jorge. They had > > Simoa > > > da Mata. m. André Martins from the Martins da Mata. > > > > > > Thanks for any any info, > > > > > > > > > Miguel de CH > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Cece, I got part of my data from Pereira de Agrela, Clode and Felisberto BM. About Beatriz de Lordelo and her connection to the Teixeiras: João Fernandes Lordelo m. Isabel Teixeira,, dau, of Tristão Vaz, the first Capitão-Mor. Had one dau and one son: Henrique Fernandes de Lordelo m. Guiomar escórcio, dau of João Drummond and Branca Afonso. There was also a Lopo de Lordelo, Knight, who married a N. Teixeira, according to Pereira de Agrela. This N. Teixeira was the sister of the 3d Captain. On other hand according to Clode, Tristão Teixeira, o das Damas, the 2nd Captain married D. Guiomar de Lordelo, probably a sister of his cunhado João Fernandes de Lordelo, and they had issue.. On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 1:31 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > You lost me - it seems almost every one of the posts today have me dancing > very closely to someone in my tree...but not quite touching ;-) > So allow me to start with your quote below " Beatriz de Lordelo, and this > same Beatriz the niece of Tristão Teixeira"... > Please show me this connection. > > And second regarding your quote "* António Fernandes das Covas,( son of > Paulo António or António Paulo, a Jewish MD who was extremely rich, had > slaves, an "engenho", etc)) married 2 nd time in that very same year Maria > de Velosa de Vasconcelos. dau. of Francisco Velosa de Vasconcelos and Maria > de Gayas" > I also have Antonio Fernandes das Covas and Maria de Velosa de Vasconcelos. > But I show Maria to be the daughter of Irvao Teixiera and Dona Maria de > Velosa (this from Pelo Conego Meneses Vaz, Teixeiras de Tristao Vaz, > Familias da Madeira e Porto Santo,pg 149). > > According to HHN título Teixeiras we have a different story; § 14.º / N.º 4 – Manuel Teixeira de Vasconcellos, filho 2.º / de Antonio Teixei- ra, o Rei Pequeno, § 11.º, N.º 3.º / Casou com Anna de Vellosa, filha de Fran- / cisco de Vellosa, o velho, e de Catharina Vaz Tavares, / em titulo de Vellosas, § 2.º, N.º 2.º / De quem houve. / 5 – Francisco de Vellosa de Vasconcellos. / 5 – D. Constança de Mendônça, mulher de João / de Ornellas de Moura, filho de João de Or- / nellas, e de D. Cecilia de Moura, em titulo / de Ornellas, § ...., N.º...../ 5 – Francisco De Vellosa de Vasconcellos, filho 1.º de / Manuel Teixeira de Vasconcellos. / Casou com Maria de Gaias, Viuva de Agos- / tinho de Goes de Vas- concellos, seu primo, n’este / titulo, § 11.º, N.º 5.º, e filha de Braz Gonçal- / ves, e de Maria d’a Conceição. / De quem houve. / 6 – Francisco de Vellosa de Vasconcellos. / 6 – Uma filha casada com Antonio Fernandes / que foi morador n’o Faial, e fôrão paes de: / ANTÓNIO FERNANDES DAS COVAS,. MORADOR NO FAIAL. 7 – Uma filha, casada com Antonio Vaz / Leite, c. g. / > I was thinking about asking about this quote as well "This last Francisco > de Miranda de Lordelo is one of the first Correias de Miranda in Madeira > and > is well known.As well as the Lordelo name.I won't discuss here their > genealogy now. Which is controversial, at least for one of them"...but > decided this is probably too much for one posting ;-) > I'LL ANSWER THAT TOMORROW ; -))) MIGUEL de CH > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:06 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Link to Morgado da Bemposta > > As direct ancestors of my paternal gg.mother Eulália Rosa (Corrêa de > Miranda) I have (several generations before) in the beggining of the 17 th > century (1610): > > Francisco Lopes Borralho m.(Faial, 1610) Catarina Corrêa, she daughter of > Francisco de Miranda de Lordelo and Antónia Jorge. This last Francisco de > Miranda de Lordelo is one of the first Correias de Miranda in Madeira and > is > well known.As well as the Lordelo name. I won't discuss here their > genealogy now. Which is controversial, at least for one of them. > > Only recently I became aware that the Lopes Borralho name, quite unusual in > that time (and even after) probably comes from João Lopes Franco (son of > Lopo Franco de Monção married Catarina Annes Escudeiro niece of João Afonso > Escudeiro, the 1st Morgado da Bemposta) and Jerónima Borralho. > > But I had a one generation gap. Then I found in Pereira de Agrela one Diogo > Lopes Tavares, Morgado de São Lázaro ( son of João Lopes Franco, Morgado > da > Bemposta) and Jerónima Borralho- dau. of Gomes da Ponte, son of Jordão de > Ponte and Filipa Tavares, and another Jerónima Borralho. (This > FilipaTavares > is an important piece of the puzzle, it explains why the Morgados da > Bemposta used a coat of arms quartered with the Tavares' arms. She was the > dau of Fernão Enes - I think he was called "O do bons vinhos. great!) and > Catarina Vaz Tavares, this last one dau of Vasco Esteves and Joana > Tavares.) > > Anyway That Diogo Lopes Tavares married (1580) Antónia de Abreu Escórcio- > (dau. of António Lopes Libraleão and Mecia de Abreu Escórcio, dau of João > Escórcio and Isabel Calaça- (the Libraleão possibly or maybe definetely > Jewish) (interesting detail, because of one of the godparents. See below. * > > My feeling is that Diogo LT and Antónia AE. are the parents of my Francisco > Lopes Borralho. The chronology fits, the names too, the social milieu too. > > Catarina Correia the wife of Francisco Lopes Borralho was the g. dau, of D. > Beatriz de Lordelo, and this same Beatriz the niece of Tristão Teixeira, 3 > d > Capitão-Mor de Machico. > > The witness or quite possibly godparents of the marriage document (quite > damaged, can't read it clearly in some parts) of Francisco Lopes Borralho > and Catarina Corrêa, were Jordão de Freitas m. Beatriz Spínola. Jordão had > a > Lordelo as ancestor. > And the other witness is the famous > > * António Fernandes das Covas,( son of Paulo António or António Paulo, a > Jewish MD who was extremely rich, had slaves, an "engenho", etc)) married 2 > nd time in that very same year Maria de Velosa de Vasconcelos. dau. of > Francisco Velosa de Vasconcelos and Maria de Gayas- These Gayas, though > noble, were most probably of Jewish origin too. This Francisco Velosa de > Vasconcelos was also descendant of Catarina Vaz Tavares, thus Maria Velosa > the wife of António Fernandes das Covas (the godfather) was a relative of > the groom. And also a descendant of the Teixeiras, thus a relative of the > bride as well. > > So I think this is it. I guess that all this makes sense. The social > milieu, > the Jewish connection, the adjustment of the names. As a matter of fact the > Borralho name is very very rare. Only 7 Borralhos appear in the ARM > database, and they seem to be all related - and linked to Jerónima > Borralho, > m. (1535 more or less) to João Lopes Franco Escudeiro, the Morgado da > Bemposta. > > What do you think? > > Probably some more people in here have Corrêas or Correias de Miranda and > possibly they'll have a link to these people too. > > Cheers, > > > Miguel de CH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this > incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.116/2580 - Release Date: 12/22/09 > 08:09:00 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Luis, In FMPS (título Buarcos or Barcos) pg. 317, there is a reference of Antão Escórcio and Maria Teixeira Mourato, em título de Escórcio Salazar. They married around 162,,, They had a son, João Escórcio who married ( 1646)Filipa de Barcos, from the Barcos. They are certainly your people. Miguel On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Luis Beal <[email protected]> wrote: > Does anyone have any info on Antao Escorcio de Vasconcelos married to Maria > Teixeira sometime before 1630? They are the parents of my Maria Escorcio > married to Pedro Moniz da Camara, and my 9th g-g.parents. Das Artes e da > Historia lists them under the title Buarcos but I do not have that page :( > Can't find them on the arquivo either. > Thanks, > > Luis Beal > > "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a > child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the > life of our ancestors." > Cicero, Roman orator > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Mary Frost <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tue, December 22, 2009 1:40:18 PM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] People from Gaula > > Hello Miguel: > I have some data on file that includes your people. > First- Pedro Goncalves who married Maria Jorge 1649 Gaula-occupation? > Caxaxo > Was the son of Pedro Goncalves a slave and Maria da Mata (deceased athe > time > of the wedding). Maria Jorge was the daughter of Francisco Fernandes and > Ana > Jorge. > I have wedding information on three of their children, including the > marriage of Andre Martins da Mata and Simoa da Mata 1690. > Does this help you? > Mary da Silva Frost > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:18 AM > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] People from Gaula > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Am looking for Pedro Gonçalves m ( 1649 Gaula) Maria Jorge. They had > Simoa > > da Mata. m. André Martins from the Martins da Mata. > > > > Thanks for any any info, > > > > > > Miguel de CH > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello Mary, Thanks for your quick answer. It sure helps. I have no idea about the meaning of "caxaxo". Do you have the parents of F.co F.es and Ana Jorge? Miguel On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Mary Frost <[email protected]>wrote: > Hello Miguel: > I have some data on file that includes your people. > First- Pedro Goncalves who married Maria Jorge 1649 Gaula-occupation? > Caxaxo > Was the son of Pedro Goncalves a slave and Maria da Mata (deceased athe > time > of the wedding). Maria Jorge was the daughter of Francisco Fernandes and > Ana > Jorge. > I have wedding information on three of their children, including the > marriage of Andre Martins da Mata and Simoa da Mata 1690. > Does this help you? > Mary da Silva Frost > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:18 AM > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] People from Gaula > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Am looking for Pedro Gonçalves m ( 1649 Gaula) Maria Jorge. They had > Simoa > > da Mata. m. André Martins from the Martins da Mata. > > > > Thanks for any any info, > > > > > > Miguel de CH > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

OK I knew that was too much in one post ;-) - so I'm gonna break it down and start with the first one: You say "João Fernandes Lordelo m. Isabel Teixeira,, dau, of Tristão Vaz, the first Capitão-Mor. Had one dau and one son: Henrique Fernandes de Lordelo m. Guiomar escórcio, dau of João Drummond and Branca Afonso." Agreed - and the daughters name was Guiomar de Lordelo who married Joao de Freitas Correa amd continue.."There was also a Lopo de Lordelo, Knight, who married a N. Teixeira, according to Pereira de Agrela. This N. Teixeira was the sister of the 3d Captain." I show this Lopo as a brother to Joao Fernandes Lordelo - is that the same as what you show? And are you also saying that he married a N. Teixeira who is the sister of Tristao TEIXEIRA who married Dona Grimaneza CABRAL. If so, she is new to me. I have 4 children listed for Tristao VAZ TEIXEIRA (2nd capitao) and Dona Guiomar de LORDELO. They are Joao Lourenco de Teixeira, Guiterres Teixeira, Dona Violante Teixeira & of course Tristao Teixeira (the 3rd capitao),,,and now this N. Teixeira will make 5. Any more I don't know about? _____ From: Miguel de Castro Henriques [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 8:20 PM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Link to Morgado da Bemposta Hello Cece, I got part of my data from Pereira de Agrela, Clode and Felisberto BM. About Beatriz de Lordelo and her connection to the Teixeiras: João Fernandes Lordelo m. Isabel Teixeira,, dau, of Tristão Vaz, the first Capitão-Mor. Had one dau and one son: Henrique Fernandes de Lordelo m. Guiomar escórcio, dau of João Drummond and Branca Afonso. There was also a Lopo de Lordelo, Knight, who married a N. Teixeira, according to Pereira de Agrela. This N. Teixeira was the sister of the 3d Captain. On other hand according to Clode, Tristão Teixeira, o das Damas, the 2nd Captain married D. Guiomar de Lordelo, probably a sister of his cunhado João Fernandes de Lordelo, and they had issue.. On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 1:31 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: You lost me - it seems almost every one of the posts today have me dancing very closely to someone in my tree...but not quite touching ;-) So allow me to start with your quote below " Beatriz de Lordelo, and this same Beatriz the niece of Tristão Teixeira"... Please show me this connection. And second regarding your quote "* António Fernandes das Covas,( son of Paulo António or António Paulo, a Jewish MD who was extremely rich, had slaves, an "engenho", etc)) married 2 nd time in that very same year Maria de Velosa de Vasconcelos. dau. of Francisco Velosa de Vasconcelos and Maria de Gayas" I also have Antonio Fernandes das Covas and Maria de Velosa de Vasconcelos. But I show Maria to be the daughter of Irvao Teixiera and Dona Maria de Velosa (this from Pelo Conego Meneses Vaz, Teixeiras de Tristao Vaz, Familias da Madeira e Porto Santo,pg 149). According to HHN título Teixeiras we have a different story; § 14.º / N.º 4 – Manuel Teixeira de Vasconcellos, filho 2.º / de Antonio Teixei- ra, o Rei Pequeno, § 11.º, N.º 3.º / Casou com Anna de Vellosa, filha de Fran- / cisco de Vellosa, o velho, e de Catharina Vaz Tavares, / em titulo de Vellosas, § 2.º, N.º 2.º / De quem houve. / 5 – Francisco de Vellosa de Vasconcellos. / 5 – D. Constança de Mendônça, mulher de João / de Ornellas de Moura, filho de João de Or- / nellas, e de D. Cecilia de Moura, em titulo / de Ornellas, § ...., N.º...../ 5 – Francisco De Vellosa de Vasconcellos, filho 1.º de / Manuel Teixeira de Vasconcellos. / Casou com Maria de Gaias, Viuva de Agos- / tinho de Goes de Vas- concellos, seu primo, n’este / titulo, § 11.º, N.º 5.º, e filha de Braz Gonçal- / ves, e de Maria d’a Conceição. / De quem houve. / 6 – Francisco de Vellosa de Vasconcellos. / 6 – Uma filha casada com Antonio Fernandes / que foi morador n’o Faial, e fôrão paes de: / ANTÓNIO FERNANDES DAS COVAS,. MORADOR NO FAIAL. 7 – Uma filha, casada com Antonio Vaz / Leite, c. g. / I was thinking about asking about this quote as well "This last Francisco de Miranda de Lordelo is one of the first Correias de Miranda in Madeira and is well known.As well as the Lordelo name.I won't discuss here their genealogy now. Which is controversial, at least for one of them"...but decided this is probably too much for one posting ;-) I'LL ANSWER THAT TOMORROW ; -))) MIGUEL de CH -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:06 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Link to Morgado da Bemposta As direct ancestors of my paternal gg.mother Eulália Rosa (Corrêa de Miranda) I have (several generations before) in the beggining of the 17 th century (1610): Francisco Lopes Borralho m.(Faial, 1610) Catarina Corrêa, she daughter of Francisco de Miranda de Lordelo and Antónia Jorge. This last Francisco de Miranda de Lordelo is one of the first Correias de Miranda in Madeira and is well known.As well as the Lordelo name. I won't discuss here their genealogy now. Which is controversial, at least for one of them. Only recently I became aware that the Lopes Borralho name, quite unusual in that time (and even after) probably comes from João Lopes Franco (son of Lopo Franco de Monção married Catarina Annes Escudeiro niece of João Afonso Escudeiro, the 1st Morgado da Bemposta) and Jerónima Borralho. But I had a one generation gap. Then I found in Pereira de Agrela one Diogo Lopes Tavares, Morgado de São Lázaro ( son of João Lopes Franco, Morgado da Bemposta) and Jerónima Borralho- dau. of Gomes da Ponte, son of Jordão de Ponte and Filipa Tavares, and another Jerónima Borralho. (This FilipaTavares is an important piece of the puzzle, it explains why the Morgados da Bemposta used a coat of arms quartered with the Tavares' arms. She was the dau of Fernão Enes - I think he was called "O do bons vinhos. great!) and Catarina Vaz Tavares, this last one dau of Vasco Esteves and Joana Tavares.) Anyway That Diogo Lopes Tavares married (1580) Antónia de Abreu Escórcio- (dau. of António Lopes Libraleão and Mecia de Abreu Escórcio, dau of João Escórcio and Isabel Calaça- (the Libraleão possibly or maybe definetely Jewish) (interesting detail, because of one of the godparents. See below. * My feeling is that Diogo LT and Antónia AE. are the parents of my Francisco Lopes Borralho. The chronology fits, the names too, the social milieu too. Catarina Correia the wife of Francisco Lopes Borralho was the g. dau, of D. Beatriz de Lordelo, and this same Beatriz the niece of Tristão Teixeira, 3 d Capitão-Mor de Machico. The witness or quite possibly godparents of the marriage document (quite damaged, can't read it clearly in some parts) of Francisco Lopes Borralho and Catarina Corrêa, were Jordão de Freitas m. Beatriz Spínola. Jordão had a Lordelo as ancestor. And the other witness is the famous * António Fernandes das Covas,( son of Paulo António or António Paulo, a Jewish MD who was extremely rich, had slaves, an "engenho", etc)) married 2 nd time in that very same year Maria de Velosa de Vasconcelos. dau. of Francisco Velosa de Vasconcelos and Maria de Gayas- These Gayas, though noble, were most probably of Jewish origin too. This Francisco Velosa de Vasconcelos was also descendant of Catarina Vaz Tavares, thus Maria Velosa the wife of António Fernandes das Covas (the godfather) was a relative of the groom. And also a descendant of the Teixeiras, thus a relative of the bride as well. So I think this is it. I guess that all this makes sense. The social milieu, the Jewish connection, the adjustment of the names. As a matter of fact the Borralho name is very very rare. Only 7 Borralhos appear in the ARM database, and they seem to be all related - and linked to Jerónima Borralho, m. (1535 more or less) to João Lopes Franco Escudeiro, the Morgado da Bemposta. What do you think? Probably some more people in here have Corrêas or Correias de Miranda and possibly they'll have a link to these people too. Cheers, Miguel de CH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.116/2580 - Release Date: 12/22/09 08:09:00 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.116/2580 - Release Date: 12/22/09 18:22:00

Hello Miquel: Sorry but I do not know the parents of Francisco Fernandes and Ana Jorge. However, now that I know I am on the right "line" I have more info that may interest you. Maria da Mata was born 1594 (Livro 876 F14v) to Joao Martins and Juliana Rodrigues and her godparents were Joao Rodrigues and Maria Goncalves. Maria da Mata married Pedro Goncalves 1625 Gaula. The record was hard to read. His father was deceased and his mother was Isabel. Maria was the daughter of Joao Martins and Juliana Rodrigues. Joao was deceased at the time of the wedding. I have some obit data on file: Maria da Mata died March 1643. I think it may have involved childbirth because I have a son Manuel born to Pedro Goncalves and Maria da Mata in March 1643. Joao Martins died 1600 and Juliana Rodrigues died 1634. Joao Martins and Juliana Rodrigues married 1576. No parents were named but the witnesses were Bastiao Pires and Fernao Vaz. Later on in time: 1631 Gaula, Joao Rodrigues da Mata, son of Joao Martins and Juliana Rodrigues, married Maria Jorge, daughter of Pedro Goncalves and (unclear) Jorge. I am sure that there is more, but that is all I have time for right now. Mary .

As direct ancestors of my paternal gg.mother Eulália Rosa (Corrêa de Miranda) I have (several generations before) in the beggining of the 17 th century (1610): Francisco Lopes Borralho m.(Faial, 1610) Catarina Corrêa, she daughter of Francisco de Miranda de Lordelo and Antónia Jorge. This last Francisco de Miranda de Lordelo is one of the first Correias de Miranda in Madeira and is well known.As well as the Lordelo name. I won't discuss here their genealogy now. Which is controversial, at least for one of them. Only recently I became aware that the Lopes Borralho name, quite unusual in that time (and even after) probably comes from João Lopes Franco (son of Lopo Franco de Monção married Catarina Annes Escudeiro niece of João Afonso Escudeiro, the 1st Morgado da Bemposta) and Jerónima Borralho. But I had a one generation gap. Then I found in Pereira de Agrela one Diogo Lopes Tavares, Morgado de São Lázaro ( son of João Lopes Franco, Morgado da Bemposta) and Jerónima Borralho- dau. of Gomes da Ponte, son of Jordão de Ponte and Filipa Tavares, and another Jerónima Borralho. (This FilipaTavares is an important piece of the puzzle, it explains why the Morgados da Bemposta used a coat of arms quartered with the Tavares' arms. She was the dau of Fernão Enes - I think he was called "O do bons vinhos. great!) and Catarina Vaz Tavares, this last one dau of Vasco Esteves and Joana Tavares.) Anyway That Diogo Lopes Tavares married (1580) Antónia de Abreu Escórcio- (dau. of António Lopes Libraleão and Mecia de Abreu Escórcio, dau of João Escórcio and Isabel Calaça- (the Libraleão possibly or maybe definetely Jewish) (interesting detail, because of one of the godparents. See below. * My feeling is that Diogo LT and Antónia AE. are the parents of my Francisco Lopes Borralho. The chronology fits, the names too, the social milieu too. Catarina Correia the wife of Francisco Lopes Borralho was the g. dau, of D. Beatriz de Lordelo, and this same Beatriz the niece of Tristão Teixeira, 3 d Capitão-Mor de Machico. The witness or quite possibly godparents of the marriage document (quite damaged, can't read it clearly in some parts) of Francisco Lopes Borralho and Catarina Corrêa, were Jordão de Freitas m. Beatriz Spínola. Jordão had a Lordelo as ancestor. And the other witness is the famous * António Fernandes das Covas,( son of Paulo António or António Paulo, a Jewish MD who was extremely rich, had slaves, an "engenho", etc)) married 2 nd time in that very same year Maria de Velosa de Vasconcelos. dau. of Francisco Velosa de Vasconcelos and Maria de Gayas- These Gayas, though noble, were most probably of Jewish origin too. This Francisco Velosa de Vasconcelos was also descendant of Catarina Vaz Tavares, thus Maria Velosa the wife of António Fernandes das Covas (the godfather) was a relative of the groom. And also a descendant of the Teixeiras, thus a relative of the bride as well. So I think this is it. I guess that all this makes sense. The social milieu, the Jewish connection, the adjustment of the names. As a matter of fact the Borralho name is very very rare. Only 7 Borralhos appear in the ARM database, and they seem to be all related - and linked to Jerónima Borralho, m. (1535 more or less) to João Lopes Franco Escudeiro, the Morgado da Bemposta. What do you think? Probably some more people in here have Corrêas or Correias de Miranda and possibly they'll have a link to these people too. Cheers, Miguel de CH

You lost me - it seems almost every one of the posts today have me dancing very closely to someone in my tree...but not quite touching ;-) So allow me to start with your quote below " Beatriz de Lordelo, and this same Beatriz the niece of Tristão Teixeira"... Please show me this connection. And second regarding your quote "* António Fernandes das Covas,( son of Paulo António or António Paulo, a Jewish MD who was extremely rich, had slaves, an "engenho", etc)) married 2 nd time in that very same year Maria de Velosa de Vasconcelos. dau. of Francisco Velosa de Vasconcelos and Maria de Gayas" I also have Antonio Fernandes das Covas and Maria de Velosa de Vasconcelos. But I show Maria to be the daughter of Irvao Teixiera and Dona Maria de Velosa (this from Pelo Conego Meneses Vaz, Teixeiras de Tristao Vaz, Familias da Madeira e Porto Santo,pg 149). I was thinking about asking about this quote as well "This last Francisco de Miranda de Lordelo is one of the first Correias de Miranda in Madeira and is well known.As well as the Lordelo name.I won't discuss here their genealogy now. Which is controversial, at least for one of them"...but decided this is probably too much for one posting ;-) -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:06 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Link to Morgado da Bemposta As direct ancestors of my paternal gg.mother Eulália Rosa (Corrêa de Miranda) I have (several generations before) in the beggining of the 17 th century (1610): Francisco Lopes Borralho m.(Faial, 1610) Catarina Corrêa, she daughter of Francisco de Miranda de Lordelo and Antónia Jorge. This last Francisco de Miranda de Lordelo is one of the first Correias de Miranda in Madeira and is well known.As well as the Lordelo name. I won't discuss here their genealogy now. Which is controversial, at least for one of them. Only recently I became aware that the Lopes Borralho name, quite unusual in that time (and even after) probably comes from João Lopes Franco (son of Lopo Franco de Monção married Catarina Annes Escudeiro niece of João Afonso Escudeiro, the 1st Morgado da Bemposta) and Jerónima Borralho. But I had a one generation gap. Then I found in Pereira de Agrela one Diogo Lopes Tavares, Morgado de São Lázaro ( son of João Lopes Franco, Morgado da Bemposta) and Jerónima Borralho- dau. of Gomes da Ponte, son of Jordão de Ponte and Filipa Tavares, and another Jerónima Borralho. (This FilipaTavares is an important piece of the puzzle, it explains why the Morgados da Bemposta used a coat of arms quartered with the Tavares' arms. She was the dau of Fernão Enes - I think he was called "O do bons vinhos. great!) and Catarina Vaz Tavares, this last one dau of Vasco Esteves and Joana Tavares.) Anyway That Diogo Lopes Tavares married (1580) Antónia de Abreu Escórcio- (dau. of António Lopes Libraleão and Mecia de Abreu Escórcio, dau of João Escórcio and Isabel Calaça- (the Libraleão possibly or maybe definetely Jewish) (interesting detail, because of one of the godparents. See below. * My feeling is that Diogo LT and Antónia AE. are the parents of my Francisco Lopes Borralho. The chronology fits, the names too, the social milieu too. Catarina Correia the wife of Francisco Lopes Borralho was the g. dau, of D. Beatriz de Lordelo, and this same Beatriz the niece of Tristão Teixeira, 3 d Capitão-Mor de Machico. The witness or quite possibly godparents of the marriage document (quite damaged, can't read it clearly in some parts) of Francisco Lopes Borralho and Catarina Corrêa, were Jordão de Freitas m. Beatriz Spínola. Jordão had a Lordelo as ancestor. And the other witness is the famous * António Fernandes das Covas,( son of Paulo António or António Paulo, a Jewish MD who was extremely rich, had slaves, an "engenho", etc)) married 2 nd time in that very same year Maria de Velosa de Vasconcelos. dau. of Francisco Velosa de Vasconcelos and Maria de Gayas- These Gayas, though noble, were most probably of Jewish origin too. This Francisco Velosa de Vasconcelos was also descendant of Catarina Vaz Tavares, thus Maria Velosa the wife of António Fernandes das Covas (the godfather) was a relative of the groom. And also a descendant of the Teixeiras, thus a relative of the bride as well. So I think this is it. I guess that all this makes sense. The social milieu, the Jewish connection, the adjustment of the names. As a matter of fact the Borralho name is very very rare. Only 7 Borralhos appear in the ARM database, and they seem to be all related - and linked to Jerónima Borralho, m. (1535 more or less) to João Lopes Franco Escudeiro, the Morgado da Bemposta. What do you think? Probably some more people in here have Corrêas or Correias de Miranda and possibly they'll have a link to these people too. Cheers, Miguel de CH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.116/2580 - Release Date: 12/22/09 08:09:00

So they are only listed because their children married someone from those families? I was hoping it would list the parents of either so I could go farther back on that line. Thanks a ton Miguel,   Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator ________________________________ From: Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, December 22, 2009 5:34:49 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Antao Escorcio de Vasconcelos Luis, In FMPS (título Buarcos or Barcos) pg. 317, there is a reference of Antão Escórcio and Maria Teixeira Mourato, em título de Escórcio Salazar.  They married around 162,,, They had a son, João Escórcio who married ( 1646)Filipa de Barcos, from the Barcos. They are certainly your people. Miguel On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Luis Beal <[email protected]> wrote: > Does anyone have any info on Antao Escorcio de Vasconcelos married to Maria > Teixeira sometime before 1630? They are the parents of my Maria Escorcio > married to Pedro Moniz da Camara, and my 9th g-g.parents. Das Artes e da > Historia lists them under the title Buarcos but I do not have that page :( > Can't find them on the arquivo either. > Thanks, > > Luis Beal > > "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a > child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the > life of our ancestors." > Cicero, Roman orator > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Mary Frost <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tue, December 22, 2009 1:40:18 PM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] People from Gaula > > Hello Miguel: > I have some data on file that includes your people. > First- Pedro Goncalves who married Maria Jorge 1649 Gaula-occupation? > Caxaxo > Was the son of Pedro Goncalves a slave and Maria da Mata (deceased athe > time > of the wedding). Maria Jorge was the daughter of Francisco Fernandes and > Ana > Jorge. > I have wedding information on three of their children, including the > marriage of Andre Martins da Mata and Simoa da Mata 1690. > Does this help you? > Mary da Silva Frost > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:18 AM > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] People from Gaula > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Am looking for Pedro Gonçalves m ( 1649 Gaula) Maria Jorge. They had > Simoa > > da Mata. m. André Martins from the Martins da Mata. > > > > Thanks for any any info, > > > > > > Miguel de CH > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Miguel: I have some data on file that includes your people. First- Pedro Goncalves who married Maria Jorge 1649 Gaula-occupation? Caxaxo Was the son of Pedro Goncalves a slave and Maria da Mata (deceased athe time of the wedding). Maria Jorge was the daughter of Francisco Fernandes and Ana Jorge. I have wedding information on three of their children, including the marriage of Andre Martins da Mata and Simoa da Mata 1690. Does this help you? Mary da Silva Frost -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:18 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] People from Gaula On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < [email protected]> wrote: > Am looking for Pedro Gonçalves m ( 1649 Gaula) Maria Jorge. They had Simoa > da Mata. m. André Martins from the Martins da Mata. > > Thanks for any any info, > > > Miguel de CH > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < [email protected]> wrote: > Am looking for Pedro Gonçalves m ( 1649 Gaula) Maria Jorge. They had Simoa > da Mata. m. André Martins from the Martins da Mata. > > Thanks for any any info, > > > Miguel de CH >

Am looking for Pedro Gonçalves m ( 1649 Gaula) Maria Jorge. They had Simoa da Mata. m. André Martins from the Martins da Mata. Thanks for any any info, Miguel de CH

Does anyone have any info on Antao Escorcio de Vasconcelos married to Maria Teixeira sometime before 1630? They are the parents of my Maria Escorcio married to Pedro Moniz da Camara, and my 9th g-g.parents. Das Artes e da Historia lists them under the title Buarcos but I do not have that page :( Can't find them on the arquivo either. Thanks,   Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator ________________________________ From: Mary Frost <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, December 22, 2009 1:40:18 PM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] People from Gaula Hello Miguel: I have some data on file that includes your people. First- Pedro Goncalves who married Maria Jorge 1649 Gaula-occupation? Caxaxo Was the son of Pedro Goncalves a slave and Maria da Mata (deceased athe time of the wedding). Maria Jorge was the daughter of Francisco Fernandes and Ana Jorge. I have wedding information on three of their children, including the marriage of Andre Martins da Mata and Simoa da Mata 1690. Does this help you? Mary da Silva Frost -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:18 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] People from Gaula On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < [email protected]> wrote: > Am looking for Pedro Gonçalves m ( 1649 Gaula) Maria Jorge. They had Simoa > da Mata. m. André Martins from the Martins da Mata. > > Thanks for any any info, > > > Miguel de CH > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Cece, Thanks. It's the same Pedro Gonçalves César. I trusted my memory and mixed two lines, Manuel Afonso and Beatriz Jorge belong to another line. But nevertheless it's their ascendants and not descendants that I worked out. So the hypothesis remains. To add weight to my hypothesis I saw in the Botelhos title from FMPS pg 243 another dau. of Estevâo Luís and Catarina de Chaves. Her name was Madalena Luís. She married ( 1606. CL) Pedro Teles de Abreu, son of Diogo Luis Botelho and of the enigmatic Bárbara Teles de Abreu. Some genealogists suppose that she's is related to the Telles from Campanário, who at one moment of time, 2 or 3 generations after their emergence just as Teles used the name Telles de Meneses.To support their hypothesis in fact, the sons of Pedro Teles de Abreu and Madalena Luís carried the name Telles de Meneses.: 1. The famous priest Bernardino Teles de Menses (who appears in a lot of marriage documents), and 2. Maria Teles de Meneses, married to Pedro Correia de Castro, son of Francisco Ferraz Correia and Joana Nunes. In the line of Pedro Gonçalves César in case you don't have you may add- The parents of Domingos Ferreira (m. 1590 CL Andreza Lopes) are Francisco Afonso and Isabel Rodrigues. Those of Andreza, Pedro Pires Gonçalves and Filipa Lopes. (These last ones are the trunk of a well known familiy from CL called the Lopes Gonçalves. BTW Pedro Gonçalves and Mecia Gonçalves appear in Pereira de Agrela nobiliary. Cheers, Miguel 2009/12/22 Cece Camara <[email protected]> > Is this the same Pedro Goncalves Cesar that married Maria Goncalves in > Camara de Lobos in 1670? If so, I have different parents (sourced as > Leandro). I show his parents to be > Manuel Ferreira (son of Domingos Ferreira & Andresa Lopes)m Beatriz Jorge > (daughter of Pedro Goncalves & Mecia Goncalves), 10 Aug 1633, in Camara de > Lobos...which works much better as far as timeline, don't you agree? > > Leandro might have more details about this... > > Cece > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 7:40 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Chaves from Câmara de Lobos > > I have (as ancestors of Pedro Gonçalves César) Manuel Afonso m. 1588 CL > Beatriz Jorge. > > Found in Pereira de Agrela that Beatriz Jorge was the dau. of Estêvão Luís > and Catarina de Chaves. > > So, becuase as far as I know there are not many Chaves in that time > (excluding the Figueira de Chaves, but these will use Figueira or Figueira > de Chaves) ) , I suppose that Catarina de Chaves was the dau. of Gonçalo > Jorge (de Chaves) son of Jorge Fernandes de Chaves and Ana Luís.( p.d. of > Vasco Gonçalves de Chaves and Catarina Fernandes de Vares) m- Leonor > Teixeira (dau. of João Teixeira Escórcio and Branca de Vasconcelos. p.d. of > Pedro Teixeira and Catarina Escórcio. > > > What do you think? > > > Miguel de CH > > - > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this > incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.427 / Virus Database: 270.14.114/2575 - Release Date: 12/21/09 > 19:13:00 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Cece, Did I ever send you a copy of that record for Amaro Afonso and Antonia? I just sent a copy to Miguel, hopefully he can help us figure out if it is Francisco or Pedro, I do not think it is Joao at all. The FHC has a baptism record that includes marriages for the N. Sra. da Graca, em Calheta, that we should check out before looking elsewhere. (VAULT INTL Film 1103377 ) Batismos 1596-1623 (em desordem; inclui casamentos) VAULT INTL Film 1103377 I am going to be pretty busy for the next 6 months so I will not be able to check it out. Another thing is that since Amaro's parent's are not listed there is a change Antonia was wife #2. The Arquivo does not list any earlier marriages for Amaro but that does not mean anything. Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator ________________________________ From: Cece Camara <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, December 22, 2009 5:15:09 AM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Amaro AFONSO & Antonia FERNANDES The talk about early Afonsos gpt me looking around my tree, I have found a couple, Amaro AFONSO & Antonia FERNANDES, who are Luis Beal and my common ancestor. They were married in Estreito da Calheta in 1618. I have a note from Luis that says that only her parents are named on the marriage record and that their names appear to be Francisco (I believe this first name is the question) DELGADO and Francisca FERNANDES. Now in looking around my tree and ARM, I have found 2 possibilites around the right time frame to be this Francisca Fernandes and her Delgado husband. The ARM one is a marraige in Camara de Lobos-1592- between a Joao Delgado and a Francisca Fernandes. I only think this is a possibility because Estreito da Calheta records only go back to 1611 (per my notes), so they would have been married elsewhere. In addition, I have another couple that is in my tree, Pedro Delgado and Francisca Fernandes (sourced as Leandro and Pat), who also have a son who married in Estreito da Calheta- the son's name was Pedro Delgado and he married in 1619 to Inacia Gomes. This one looks to be (a really good probability) the brother of my Antonia FERNANDES. So can anyone add anything to any of these people to tie them together? Cece ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The talk about early Afonsos gpt me looking around my tree, I have found a couple, Amaro AFONSO & Antonia FERNANDES, who are Luis Beal and my common ancestor. They were married in Estreito da Calheta in 1618. I have a note from Luis that says that only her parents are named on the marriage record and that their names appear to be Francisco (I believe this first name is the question) DELGADO and Francisca FERNANDES. Now in looking around my tree and ARM, I have found 2 possibilites around the right time frame to be this Francisca Fernandes and her Delgado husband. The ARM one is a marraige in Camara de Lobos-1592- between a Joao Delgado and a Francisca Fernandes. I only think this is a possibility because Estreito da Calheta records only go back to 1611 (per my notes), so they would have been married elsewhere. In addition, I have another couple that is in my tree, Pedro Delgado and Francisca Fernandes (sourced as Leandro and Pat), who also have a son who married in Estreito da Calheta- the son's name was Pedro Delgado and he married in 1619 to Inacia Gomes. This one looks to be (a really good probability) the brother of my Antonia FERNANDES. So can anyone add anything to any of these people to tie them together? Cece

I have (as ancestors of Pedro Gonçalves César) Manuel Afonso m. 1588 CL Beatriz Jorge. Found in Pereira de Agrela that Beatriz Jorge was the dau. of Estêvão Luís and Catarina de Chaves. So, becuase as far as I know there are not many Chaves in that time (excluding the Figueira de Chaves, but these will use Figueira or Figueira de Chaves) ) , I suppose that Catarina de Chaves was the dau. of Gonçalo Jorge (de Chaves) son of Jorge Fernandes de Chaves and Ana Luís.( p.d. of Vasco Gonçalves de Chaves and Catarina Fernandes de Vares) m- Leonor Teixeira (dau. of João Teixeira Escórcio and Branca de Vasconcelos. p.d. of Pedro Teixeira and Catarina Escórcio. What do you think? Miguel de CH -

Scott, I found something interesting for you in FMPS, pg 457 * Manuel de Agrela m. Estreito da Calheta 1617 with Maria Preta, dau, of André Fernandes and Maria Farinha ** Manuel de Agrela was the son of Pedro de Agrela m. 1588 (Sé) and Joana Lopes. *** Pedro de Agrela was the son of Lançarote de Agrela m. 154....Ana Morante. For the moment I can´t find the rest of the pages of FMPS. But they link at one point with the first Agrelas. I guess you have got two generations more backwards. Cheers, Miguel de CH On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 6:24 PM, Scot Austin <[email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > > Take a look at this tree: > > http://www.werelate.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ShowPedigree&pagetitle=Person:Nicolau_Agrela_%281%29 > Nicolau is my wife's 4g-grandfather. Can you tell how they fit in? > > Thanks, Scot > > > Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: > > Hello David, > > > > Janette ansered you already. Anyway you must be a "de Agrella" from > Madeira, > > transformed in De Grella. And if so Pereira de Agrela the genealogist is > > probably your relative, since there are not that many Agrellas in > Madeira. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Miguel > > > > On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 4:10 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> I'm confused. Who or what is"Pereira d'Agrela"? > >> Thanks, > >> David DeGrella > >> Tennessee, USA > >> On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 05:48:56 -0800 Janette Chun <[email protected]> > >> writes: > >> > >>> Thanks Miguel. I find it quite interesting that the Gois & Mendonca > >>> names, although carried by the male line in later generations, seems > >>> to have its genesis in the female line with Beatriz, her mother, and > >>> now, thanks to you, her grandmother. > >>> Turns out that I had heard of Pereira d'Agrela after all. I was > >>> going > >>> through some old genealogy files yesterday, and lo and behold, > >>> thanks > >>> to Pat (on this forum) I have about 33 pages of this genealogical > >>> record sent to me circa 2002 : )) Thanks Pat! I will have to check > >>> my old laptop to see what other treasures I might have stowed away. > >>> Janette > >>> > >>> > >>> On 19-Dec-09, at 2:50 AM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Hello Janette, > >>>> You're welcome. I am glad I was of some help. Yesterday it was a > > >>>> field day > >>>> too because I also solved another old genealogical puzzle. Thanks > >>>> > >>> to Pereira d'Agrela. > >>> > >>>> Anyway, the Mendonça could come precisely from the first Manuel > >>>> Travassos m. > >>>> Maria Mendonça. On that era sometimes a name of an ancestor > >>>> manifests 2 or > >>>> three generations later. > >>>> > >>>> Cheers, > >>>> Miguel > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 6:15 AM, Janette Chun > >>>> > >>> <[email protected]> > >>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Hello Miguel, > >>>>> > >>>>> Wow! Thank you for solving this piece of the puzzle for me. I'm > >>>>> sincerely grateful. > >>>>> I'm not on the nobility quest but good to know. I'm still at a > >>>>> little > >>>>> confused on how or where the first Mendonca occurs in this line, but > >>>>> hopefully, once I get the documents, more will be revealed. > >>>>> Janette > >>>>> > >>>>> On 18-Dec-09, at 1:32 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hello Janette, > >>>>>> In Pereira de Agrela Tomo 1-6 parte, pg 166 > >>>>>> 1 Manuel Travassos m. Maria de Mendonça, they had: > >>>>>> 2 - Manuel Travassos. o pequeninho. m. (1609) Isabel de Góis > >>>>>> ( dau. of > >>>>>> Domingos Martins de Magalhâes and Catarina Nunes), they had: > >>>>>> Baltazar > >>>>>> Manuel > >>>>>> Maria Nunes m. Baltazar de Mendonça Soares > >>>>>> Isabel de Castro m. Duarte Teixeira de Vasconcelos > >>>>>> Beatriz de Góis m. Luís de Castro Ferreira. son of Diogo de > >>>>>> > >>> Castro > >>> > >>>>>> and Luzia > >>>>>> Fernandes > >>>>>> The Travassos were from the nobility. > >>>>>> I don't know where Clode got his idea , but in this particular > >>>>>> > >> case > >> > >>>>>> he was > >>>>>> not accurate. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Miguel > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Janette Chun > >>>>>> > >>> <[email protected]> > >>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks Miguel. Yes I know of these all except Morgado Pereira > >>>>>>> > >> de Agrela. I haven't really looked at any of the Clode works, but > >> > >>> it was > >>> > >>>>>>> in fact through his work that I was able to get to this > >>>>>>> > >>> particular > >>> > >>>>>>> ancestor, thanks to a page from his book, which the archive > >>>>>>> > >>> sent me > >>> > >>>>>>> on > >>>>>>> the Gois family. > >>>>>>> I just recently took out a subscription to geneall but so far > >>>>>>> haven't > >>>>>>> discovered any new nuggets of information. Will keep looking. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Janette > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 3-Dec-09, at 9:07 AM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Well,>>> You proibably know already all that are available, You > >>>>>>>> > >> have > >> > >>>>>>>> Felsiberto, HHN, > >>>>>>>> Clode, and FMPS Clode and Meneses and Morgado Pereira de Agrela. > >>>>>>>> Geneall has > >>>>>>>> some info about Madeira genealogies. And the personal best > >>>>>>>> Madeiran > >>>>>>>> genealogies are to be found in some of our list colleagues > >>>>>>>> I'll try to find out the Travassos in Pereira de Agrela. Once I > >>>>>>>> looked for > >>>>>>>> them and it had valuable and original info about them. > >>>>>>>> At one point some a Travassos (from 15th century) whose alcunha > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> was > >>>>>>>> " O Pequenininho) was the Carcereiro, the man in charge of Porto > >>>>>>>> > >> Santo prison. > >> > >>>>>>>> A friend, a nobleman was quite schocked to see him in such a > >>>>>>>> station. Whatyou, from the noble Travassos, in such a terrible > >>>>>>>> > >> job? > >> > >>>>>>>> The Pequenininho had some flourished and philosophical. answer- > >>>>>>>> > >> Idon't > >> > >>>>>>>> recall the terms. But it was somnething like: " Alas my good > >>>>>>>> > >> friend, > >> > >>>>>>>> such is > >>>>>>>> life that, though God forbid, one day you may be in the same > >>>>>>>> position as myself." > >>>>>>>> To be called Pequenininho- - is because he was very very small > >>>>>>>> > >> in stature, but not in dignity. > >> > >>>>>>>> Miguel > >>>>>>>> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >