Pat, Feliz Ano Novo! Miguel On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 10:30 PM, Pat Corbera <[email protected]>wrote: > Miguel, > > Thank you Miguel... I actually thought it was a spelling variation... as > always many, many thanks... > > Happy New Year... > > > Pat > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 6:39:12 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Cochofel ? > > Cece, > > Giraltes rather than Giraldes. The first is Italian, the second Portuguese, > a patronymic coming from Geraldo, Giraltes and Giraldes have nothing in > common. The Italian have nothing to do with the Cochofel. > > Cheers, > > Miguel > > > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 1:56 AM, Pat Corbera <[email protected] > >wrote: > > > Miguel, > > > > In "surf'n," PA I came across the surname Giraldes mentioned under the > > heading of "Cochofel," not sure if this is a surname or a reference to > > something else. > > > > Giraldes is one of my direct lines. > > > > Would you please take a look in > > Tomo VI Fotografia 69 of 373 ? > > > > Thank You, > > Pat > > > > > > p.s. Surname Rua/s has a good write-up in PA > > Tomo VI Fotografia 75 of 373... > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello Mary, You say "Caxaxo: it means the person in question was either lame or had one leg shorter than the other." That would be c o x o. Caxaxo is something else. regards, MIguel On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 8:29 PM, Mary Frost <[email protected]>wrote: > Hello All: > > I have just a quick comment regarding this word found in a document. Caxaxo > is not an occupation but a descriptive: it means the person in question was > either lame or had one leg shorter than the other. > > Mary > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Miguel, Thank you Miguel... I actually thought it was a spelling variation... as always many, many thanks... Happy New Year... Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 6:39:12 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Cochofel ? Cece, Giraltes rather than Giraldes. The first is Italian, the second Portuguese, a patronymic coming from Geraldo, Giraltes and Giraldes have nothing in common. The Italian have nothing to do with the Cochofel. Cheers, Miguel On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 1:56 AM, Pat Corbera <[email protected]>wrote: > Miguel, > > In "surf'n," PA I came across the surname Giraldes mentioned under the > heading of "Cochofel," not sure if this is a surname or a reference to > something else. > > Giraldes is one of my direct lines. > > Would you please take a look in > Tomo VI Fotografia 69 of 373 ? > > Thank You, > Pat > > > p.s. Surname Rua/s has a good write-up in PA > Tomo VI Fotografia 75 of 373... >

It looks like Maria de Góis is a serious candidate; -)) Artur is a most unusual surname for the Perestrelos, though. But.. For the time being I would refer to them according to A and according to B she is the dau of.. Anyway Felisberto and António Ornelas Mendes and Jorge Forjaz knew something about this couple. Because they all are serious genealogists they have not invented it. Miguel On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:41 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > in FBM it says she is the dau of of artur rodrigues perestrelo and maria de > gois... so who shall we take as truth? way too many leads :) > > Leandro > > > In a message dated 12/31/2009 4:29:57 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > In GIT (Genealogias da Ilha Terceira) vol VI pg 690 Ana Ferraz de Abreu is > said to be the dau of Mateus Gonçalves and Maria de Góis. > > We know that we can't take genealogies at face value, but iIf that is > true, > that Gonçalves chap could carry the name Ferraz. > > Any Mateus amongst Artur's sons? > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > It does. Because apparently there is just one source for the name > Ferraz: > > Artur Gonçalves or his wife. > > And yes Maria de Abreu could be the sister of AFA- "Could", not "is". > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:00 PM, JAndrade1 <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > >> Does this tie into the Rui Garcia discussion we were having a while > >> back? > >> We had said that Aires Goncalves m. Isabel Ferraz c 1500 > >> their son Artur Goncalves m. Madalena de Abreu c. 1530 (which jibes > >> with your dates for their in-laws) > >> their daughter Maria de Abreu m. Baltazar Martins c 1550 (she would > >> be the sister of your Ana Ferraz de Abreu?) > >> and had seven children, one of which, > >> Madalena de Abreu m. Rui Garcia 10/17/1584 Estreito de Camara de Lobos > >> > >> Is this right then, that your Ana Ferraz de Abreu is sister of my > >> Maria de Abreu? > >> Jeff > >> > >> > >> On Dec 31, 2009, at 8:04 AM, Cece Camara wrote: > >> > >> I have this quote from you attached to Diogo Ornelas de Vasconcelos: > >> "DOV is the son of Manuel Fernandes de Castro (m. 1540) Brites de > >> Góis dau. > >> of Mem de Ornelas and Brites de Góis. > >> Ana Ferraz de Abreu, his wife, is the dau. of Cavaleiro Artur > >> Gonçalves, the > >> trunk of the Ferrazes. > >> Check Castros in NESOS - last page" > >> > >> As Nesos - is sadly no longer with us - can you tell me who Ana > >> Ferraz de > >> Abreu's mother is (wife of Artur Goncalves) > >> Also wondering if you know who either of their parents are as well. > >> > >> Thanks and Happy New Years Eve!! > >> > >> Cece > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > >> in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

In a recent post on this list it was stated that all Agrelas in Madeira should be related. Here is what I have on my Agrela roots. Maybe someone has these names and we are related. Starting with my great grandfather: GGF Alexandre de Agrella B: 1828, maybe in Arco da Calheta M: August 1851 to Francisca Candida da Silva D: 1879 in United Sates GGGF Joao de Agrella M: May 31, 1827, to Perpetura Rosa GGGGF Joao de Agrella M: to Anna Joaquina Here in the United States, the name has become DeGrella. Hoping to make a connection, David Tennessee, USA

Hello All: I have just a quick comment regarding this word found in a document. Caxaxo is not an occupation but a descriptive: it means the person in question was either lame or had one leg shorter than the other. Mary

In GIT (Genealogias da Ilha Terceira) vol VI pg 690 Ana Ferraz de Abreu is said to be the dau of Mateus Gonçalves and Maria de Góis. We know that we can't take genealogies at face value, but iIf that is true, that Gonçalves chap could carry the name Ferraz. Any Mateus amongst Artur's sons? On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < [email protected]> wrote: > It does. Because apparently there is just one source for the name Ferraz: > Artur Gonçalves or his wife. > And yes Maria de Abreu could be the sister of AFA- "Could", not "is". > > > Miguel > > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:00 PM, JAndrade1 <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Does this tie into the Rui Garcia discussion we were having a while >> back? >> We had said that Aires Goncalves m. Isabel Ferraz c 1500 >> their son Artur Goncalves m. Madalena de Abreu c. 1530 (which jibes >> with your dates for their in-laws) >> their daughter Maria de Abreu m. Baltazar Martins c 1550 (she would >> be the sister of your Ana Ferraz de Abreu?) >> and had seven children, one of which, >> Madalena de Abreu m. Rui Garcia 10/17/1584 Estreito de Camara de Lobos >> >> Is this right then, that your Ana Ferraz de Abreu is sister of my >> Maria de Abreu? >> Jeff >> >> >> On Dec 31, 2009, at 8:04 AM, Cece Camara wrote: >> >> I have this quote from you attached to Diogo Ornelas de Vasconcelos: >> "DOV is the son of Manuel Fernandes de Castro (m. 1540) Brites de >> Góis dau. >> of Mem de Ornelas and Brites de Góis. >> Ana Ferraz de Abreu, his wife, is the dau. of Cavaleiro Artur >> Gonçalves, the >> trunk of the Ferrazes. >> Check Castros in NESOS - last page" >> >> As Nesos - is sadly no longer with us - can you tell me who Ana >> Ferraz de >> Abreu's mother is (wife of Artur Goncalves) >> Also wondering if you know who either of their parents are as well. >> >> Thanks and Happy New Years Eve!! >> >> Cece >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >

It does. Because apparently there is just one source for the name Ferraz: Artur Gonçalves or his wife. And yes Maria de Abreu could be the sister of AFA- "Could", not "is". Miguel On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:00 PM, JAndrade1 <[email protected]> wrote: > Does this tie into the Rui Garcia discussion we were having a while > back? > We had said that Aires Goncalves m. Isabel Ferraz c 1500 > their son Artur Goncalves m. Madalena de Abreu c. 1530 (which jibes > with your dates for their in-laws) > their daughter Maria de Abreu m. Baltazar Martins c 1550 (she would > be the sister of your Ana Ferraz de Abreu?) > and had seven children, one of which, > Madalena de Abreu m. Rui Garcia 10/17/1584 Estreito de Camara de Lobos > > Is this right then, that your Ana Ferraz de Abreu is sister of my > Maria de Abreu? > Jeff > > > On Dec 31, 2009, at 8:04 AM, Cece Camara wrote: > > I have this quote from you attached to Diogo Ornelas de Vasconcelos: > "DOV is the son of Manuel Fernandes de Castro (m. 1540) Brites de > Góis dau. > of Mem de Ornelas and Brites de Góis. > Ana Ferraz de Abreu, his wife, is the dau. of Cavaleiro Artur > Gonçalves, the > trunk of the Ferrazes. > Check Castros in NESOS - last page" > > As Nesos - is sadly no longer with us - can you tell me who Ana > Ferraz de > Abreu's mother is (wife of Artur Goncalves) > Also wondering if you know who either of their parents are as well. > > Thanks and Happy New Years Eve!! > > Cece > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Escórcio or Escócio On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < [email protected]> wrote: > Problem begins with the name, Joâo Escórcio Drummond. He was not known by > that name in his time, and is not known by that name in the nobiliaries. > In his time he was known as João Escórcio or Escórcio. After his death - he > revealed his real name on his deathbed (so the story goes) .His male issue > took the name Drummond and the females Afonso, as it was the use and custom. > After both males and females used either Escócio, Escórcio or Drummond ( and > its many homologues: Doromondo, Doromundo, Aramanod, Dormund, etc.). > > He was also (later) known by João Escoto ( from Scotus - Latin for > Scottish). In Portugal Latin was used in documents. > > > He married two times. Branca Afonso was Branca Afonso da Cunha. She was the > sister of a vigário - that is a fact. No one knows who these Cunhas were. > > Catarina Vaz I've seem her reported just as Catarina Vaz, and Vaz de > Lordelo. I'd rather choose Catarina Vaz, tout court. In these times peole > had just one name and surname. Even people very important like Diogo Afonso > de Aguiar, who was a FCR (Fidalgo da Casa Real) and a Knight, was known just > as Diogo Afonso, without the "de Aguiar." His name appears like that - Diogo > Afonso, several times in the Tombo da Câmara (one of the most important > books from Madeira). > > > Well, when I'll have more time I'll come to this subject one more time. > Because I discovered some stuff linking the Cairos, of the line Cairos de > Orta, to the Escórcios. > > > Cheers, > > Miguel > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I just found a discrepancy on Leandro's site and am wondering which info >> may >> be correct...if it is known. >> >> I have Joao Escorcio Drummond married twice- once to Branca Afonso (no >> parents listed for her) with 9 children - one of them being Joana Escorcio >> who married Andre Pires. Joao married again with Catarina Vaz (no parents >> for her)...I show they had 1 daughter, Catarina Escorcio who married Pedro >> Teixiera. >> >> Leandro shows Joaos 2nd wife, Catarina Vaz, to be Catarina Vaz de Lordelo >> - >> and he shows 1 child for them names Ana Escorcio who is married to Andre >> Pires (this is obviously the person I refer to as Joana above). >> >> Leandro also shows the daughter Catarina Escorcio (the one I show above as >> the daughter of Catarina), who is married to Pedro Teixeira - to be the >> daughter of Branca. >> >> So the questions are - >> >> is Joao Escorcio Drummonds daughter (the one who married Andre Pires) >> named >> Joana or Ana and is her mother Catarina or Branca? >> >> And is Joao Escorcio Drummonds daughter, Catarina Escorcio (who married >> Pedro Teixeira) the daughter of Catarina or Branca? >> >> whewww...good luck to anyone who wishes to tackle this tangled web ;-) >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >

Problem begins with the name, Joâo Escórcio Drummond. He was not known by that name in his time, and is not known by that name in the nobiliaries. In his time he was known as João Escórcio or Escórcio. After his death - he revealed his real name on his deathbed (so the story goes) .His male issue took the name Drummond and the females Afonso, as it was the use and custom. After both males and females used either Escócio, Escórcio or Drummond ( and its many homologues: Doromondo, Doromundo, Aramanod, Dormund, etc.). He was also (later) known by João Escoto ( from Scotus - Latin for Scottish). In Portugal Latin was used in documents. He married two times. Branca Afonso was Branca Afonso da Cunha. She was the sister of a vigário - that is a fact. No one knows who these Cunhas were. Catarina Vaz I've seem her reported just as Catarina Vaz, and Vaz de Lordelo. I'd rather choose Catarina Vaz, tout court. In these times peole had just one name and surname. Even people very important like Diogo Afonso de Aguiar, who was a FCR (Fidalgo da Casa Real) and a Knight, was known just as Diogo Afonso, without the "de Aguiar." His name appears like that - Diogo Afonso, several times in the Tombo da Câmara (one of the most important books from Madeira). Well, when I'll have more time I'll come to this subject one more time. Because I discovered some stuff linking the Cairos, of the line Cairos de Orta, to the Escórcios. Cheers, Miguel On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > I just found a discrepancy on Leandro's site and am wondering which info > may > be correct...if it is known. > > I have Joao Escorcio Drummond married twice- once to Branca Afonso (no > parents listed for her) with 9 children - one of them being Joana Escorcio > who married Andre Pires. Joao married again with Catarina Vaz (no parents > for her)...I show they had 1 daughter, Catarina Escorcio who married Pedro > Teixiera. > > Leandro shows Joaos 2nd wife, Catarina Vaz, to be Catarina Vaz de Lordelo - > and he shows 1 child for them names Ana Escorcio who is married to Andre > Pires (this is obviously the person I refer to as Joana above). > > Leandro also shows the daughter Catarina Escorcio (the one I show above as > the daughter of Catarina), who is married to Pedro Teixeira - to be the > daughter of Branca. > > So the questions are - > > is Joao Escorcio Drummonds daughter (the one who married Andre Pires) > named > Joana or Ana and is her mother Catarina or Branca? > > And is Joao Escorcio Drummonds daughter, Catarina Escorcio (who married > Pedro Teixeira) the daughter of Catarina or Branca? > > whewww...good luck to anyone who wishes to tackle this tangled web ;-) > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Sorry, the message was meant for Pat Miguel On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < [email protected]> wrote: > Cece, > > Giraltes rather than Giraldes. The first is Italian, the second Portuguese, > a patronymic coming from Geraldo, Giraltes and Giraldes have nothing in > common. The Italian have nothing to do with the Cochofel. > > Cheers, > > > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 1:56 AM, Pat Corbera <[email protected]>wrote: > >> Miguel, >> >> In "surf'n," PA I came across the surname Giraldes mentioned under the >> heading of "Cochofel," not sure if this is a surname or a reference to >> something else. >> >> Giraldes is one of my direct lines. >> >> Would you please take a look in >> Tomo VI Fotografia 69 of 373 ? >> >> Thank You, >> Pat >> >> >> p.s. Surname Rua/s has a good write-up in PA >> Tomo VI Fotografia 75 of 373... >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >

Cece, Giraltes rather than Giraldes. The first is Italian, the second Portuguese, a patronymic coming from Geraldo, Giraltes and Giraldes have nothing in common. The Italian have nothing to do with the Cochofel. Cheers, Miguel On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 1:56 AM, Pat Corbera <[email protected]>wrote: > Miguel, > > In "surf'n," PA I came across the surname Giraldes mentioned under the > heading of "Cochofel," not sure if this is a surname or a reference to > something else. > > Giraldes is one of my direct lines. > > Would you please take a look in > Tomo VI Fotografia 69 of 373 ? > > Thank You, > Pat > > > p.s. Surname Rua/s has a good write-up in PA > Tomo VI Fotografia 75 of 373... > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

in FBM it says she is the dau of of artur rodrigues perestrelo and maria de gois... so who shall we take as truth? way too many leads :) Leandro In a message dated 12/31/2009 4:29:57 P.M. W. Europe Standard Time, [email protected] writes: In GIT (Genealogias da Ilha Terceira) vol VI pg 690 Ana Ferraz de Abreu is said to be the dau of Mateus Gonçalves and Maria de Góis. We know that we can't take genealogies at face value, but iIf that is true, that Gonçalves chap could carry the name Ferraz. Any Mateus amongst Artur's sons? On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < [email protected]> wrote: > It does. Because apparently there is just one source for the name Ferraz: > Artur Gonçalves or his wife. > And yes Maria de Abreu could be the sister of AFA- "Could", not "is". > > > Miguel > > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 3:00 PM, JAndrade1 <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Does this tie into the Rui Garcia discussion we were having a while >> back? >> We had said that Aires Goncalves m. Isabel Ferraz c 1500 >> their son Artur Goncalves m. Madalena de Abreu c. 1530 (which jibes >> with your dates for their in-laws) >> their daughter Maria de Abreu m. Baltazar Martins c 1550 (she would >> be the sister of your Ana Ferraz de Abreu?) >> and had seven children, one of which, >> Madalena de Abreu m. Rui Garcia 10/17/1584 Estreito de Camara de Lobos >> >> Is this right then, that your Ana Ferraz de Abreu is sister of my >> Maria de Abreu? >> Jeff >> >> >> On Dec 31, 2009, at 8:04 AM, Cece Camara wrote: >> >> I have this quote from you attached to Diogo Ornelas de Vasconcelos: >> "DOV is the son of Manuel Fernandes de Castro (m. 1540) Brites de >> Góis dau. >> of Mem de Ornelas and Brites de Góis. >> Ana Ferraz de Abreu, his wife, is the dau. of Cavaleiro Artur >> Gonçalves, the >> trunk of the Ferrazes. >> Check Castros in NESOS - last page" >> >> As Nesos - is sadly no longer with us - can you tell me who Ana >> Ferraz de >> Abreu's mother is (wife of Artur Goncalves) >> Also wondering if you know who either of their parents are as well. >> >> Thanks and Happy New Years Eve!! >> >> Cece >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Does this tie into the Rui Garcia discussion we were having a while back? We had said that Aires Goncalves m. Isabel Ferraz c 1500 their son Artur Goncalves m. Madalena de Abreu c. 1530 (which jibes with your dates for their in-laws) their daughter Maria de Abreu m. Baltazar Martins c 1550 (she would be the sister of your Ana Ferraz de Abreu?) and had seven children, one of which, Madalena de Abreu m. Rui Garcia 10/17/1584 Estreito de Camara de Lobos Is this right then, that your Ana Ferraz de Abreu is sister of my Maria de Abreu? Jeff On Dec 31, 2009, at 8:04 AM, Cece Camara wrote: I have this quote from you attached to Diogo Ornelas de Vasconcelos: "DOV is the son of Manuel Fernandes de Castro (m. 1540) Brites de Góis dau. of Mem de Ornelas and Brites de Góis. Ana Ferraz de Abreu, his wife, is the dau. of Cavaleiro Artur Gonçalves, the trunk of the Ferrazes. Check Castros in NESOS - last page" As Nesos - is sadly no longer with us - can you tell me who Ana Ferraz de Abreu's mother is (wife of Artur Goncalves) Also wondering if you know who either of their parents are as well. Thanks and Happy New Years Eve!! Cece ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Luis, Now I'll have to see if any of my family is in there. Man, is this a tough one to wade through... Hey, is Vol. 3 missing? Jeff On Dec 30, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Luis Beal wrote: Oops, I meant Tomo VI, not IV. Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator ________________________________ From: Luis Beal <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, December 30, 2009 11:28:17 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Help reading certificates/Pereira d'Agrela I looked at it and there is an index at the end of Tomo IV with pages listed under each book. The worst is that if you want to locate a page in a book it is guesswork as the pages have not been numbered. Just count 2 pages per sheet (meaning that for every 2 images it will be page 1 and page 1v.) and hopefully you can find the one you want :) Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator ________________________________ From: Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, December 30, 2009 10:43:05 AM Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Help reading certificates/Pereira d'Agrela I don't know if the book present in Picasa has an index at the end. It may. I have the work in files that my cousin sent me long time ago. Some files, which interested me particularly, I have printed - like the Correias Mirandas., the Chaves, the Afonso Pires, etc. Anyway, now we have almost all the Nobiliaries at our disposal. But what about the França e Vasconcelos nobiliary? Anyone can locate it? On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 4:35 PM, Luis Beal <[email protected]> wrote: > I have no idea. You guys were talking about this book so I googled > it and > came across that link. My first thought was of an index too but if > one > exists it will be at the very end of the book, the end of the last > tomo. > Sorry that I can't be of more help, maybe Miguel knows, I believe > he was > the one who made reference to the book. > Good luck, > > Luis Beal > > "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain > perpetually a > child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven > into the > life of our ancestors." > Cicero, Roman orator > > > > > ________________________________ > From: JAndrade1 <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wed, December 30, 2009 5:50:20 AM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Help reading certificates/Pereira d'Agrela > > Hey Luis, > I was looking at the picassa pages you linked to here. I hadn't seen > any references to this source before. What is its focus and how is it > organized? Seems that each of the tomes has 100s of pages so > searching it without an index of some type is tough, Could you give > me some guidance here, at least some idea of where to look? > > On Dec 21, 2009, at 7:45 PM, Luis Beal wrote: > > > http://picasaweb.google.pt/cisne888/ This lady posted 9 books online > of Joao Agostinho Pereira d'Agrella > > Luis Beal > > "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain > perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it > is woven into the life of our ancestors." > Cicero, Roman orator > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Mon, December 21, 2009 4:32:21 PM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Help reading certificates/Pereira d'Agrela > > You can also try Pereira de Agrela in Google books instead of Pereira > d'Agrela. > > On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 10:30 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> if you go to http://www.google.com/books and type in d'agrela you >> will >> find >> some mention of possibly him. >> >> I found the following passage: >> >> aquelas informacoas sido tambem asseguradas por Pedro Agostinho >> Pereira >> d'Agrela da Camara e por aquele Joao Diogo de quem hoave o >> manuscrito. >> Eran >> ambos fithos do Morgado Joao Agostinho Pereira d'Agrela da Camara, >> por ouja >> morte, em Favereiro de 1835, ficou herdeiro da copia este ultimo, >> que era o >> successor no morgadio. >> >> I may not have copied it correctly as it is hard to read and this >> may or >> may >> not be your d'Agrela. >> >> Tom Freitas >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Scot Austin" <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:24 AM >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Help reading certificates/Pereira d'Agrela >> >> >> Miguel, >> >> Take a look at this tree: >> >> http://www.werelate.org/w/index.php? >> title=Special:ShowPedigree&pagetitle=Person:Nicolau_Agrela_%281%29 >> Nicolau is my wife's 4g-grandfather. Can you tell how they fit in? >> >> Thanks, Scot >> >> >> Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: >>> Hello David, >>> >>> Janette ansered you already. Anyway you must be a "de Agrella" from >>> Madeira, >>> transformed in De Grella. And if so Pereira de Agrela the >>> genealogist is >>> probably your relative, since there are not that many Agrellas in >> Madeira. >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> >>> Miguel >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 4:10 PM, <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I'm confused. Who or what is"Pereira d'Agrela"? >>>> Thanks, >>>> David DeGrella >>>> Tennessee, USA >>>> On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 05:48:56 -0800 Janette Chun >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> writes: >>>> >>>>> Thanks Miguel. I find it quite interesting that the Gois & >>>>> Mendonca >>>>> names, although carried by the male line in later generations, >>>>> seems >>>>> to have its genesis in the female line with Beatriz, her mother, >>>>> and >>>>> now, thanks to you, her grandmother. >>>>> Turns out that I had heard of Pereira d'Agrela after all. I was >>>>> going >>>>> through some old genealogy files yesterday, and lo and behold, >>>>> thanks >>>>> to Pat (on this forum) I have about 33 pages of this genealogical >>>>> record sent to me circa 2002 : )) Thanks Pat! I will have to >>>>> check >>>>> my old laptop to see what other treasures I might have stowed >>>>> away. >>>>> Janette >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 19-Dec-09, at 2:50 AM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hello Janette, >>>>>> You're welcome. I am glad I was of some help. Yesterday it was >>>>>> a > >>>>>> field day >>>>>> too because I also solved another old genealogical puzzle. Thanks >>>>>> >>>>> to Pereira d'Agrela. >>>>> >>>>>> Anyway, the Mendonça could come precisely from the first Manuel >>>>>> Travassos m. >>>>>> Maria Mendonça. On that era sometimes a name of an ancestor >>>>>> manifests 2 or >>>>>> three generations later. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Miguel >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 6:15 AM, Janette Chun >>>>>> >>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello Miguel, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wow! Thank you for solving this piece of the puzzle for me. >>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>> sincerely grateful. >>>>>>> I'm not on the nobility quest but good to know. I'm still at a >>>>>>> little >>>>>>> confused on how or where the first Mendonca occurs in this >>>>>>> line, but >>>>>>> hopefully, once I get the documents, more will be revealed. >>>>>>> Janette >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 18-Dec-09, at 1:32 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello Janette, >>>>>>>> In Pereira de Agrela Tomo 1-6 parte, pg 166 >>>>>>>> 1 Manuel Travassos m. Maria de Mendonça, they had: >>>>>>>> 2 - Manuel Travassos. o pequeninho. m. (1609) Isabel de Góis >>>>>>>> ( dau. of >>>>>>>> Domingos Martins de Magalhâes and Catarina Nunes), they had: >>>>>>>> Baltazar >>>>>>>> Manuel >>>>>>>> Maria Nunes m. Baltazar de Mendonça Soares >>>>>>>> Isabel de Castro m. Duarte Teixeira de Vasconcelos >>>>>>>> Beatriz de Góis m. Luís de Castro Ferreira. son of Diogo de >>>>>>>> >>>>> Castro >>>>> >>>>>>>> and Luzia >>>>>>>> Fernandes >>>>>>>> The Travassos were from the nobility. >>>>>>>> I don't know where Clode got his idea , but in this particular >>>>>>>> >>>> case >>>> >>>>>>>> he was >>>>>>>> not accurate. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Miguel >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Janette Chun >>>>>>>> >>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks Miguel. Yes I know of these all except Morgado Pereira >>>>>>>>> >>>> de Agrela. I haven't really looked at any of the Clode works, >>>> but >>>> >>>>> it was >>>>> >>>>>>>>> in fact through his work that I was able to get to this >>>>>>>>> >>>>> particular >>>>> >>>>>>>>> ancestor, thanks to a page from his book, which the archive >>>>>>>>> >>>>> sent me >>>>> >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> the Gois family. >>>>>>>>> I just recently took out a subscription to geneall but so far >>>>>>>>> haven't >>>>>>>>> discovered any new nuggets of information. Will keep looking. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Janette >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 3-Dec-09, at 9:07 AM, Miguel de Castro Henriques wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Well,>>> You proibably know already all that are available, >>>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>> >>>> have >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Felsiberto, HHN, >>>>>>>>>> Clode, and FMPS Clode and Meneses and Morgado Pereira de >>>>>>>>>> Agrela. >>>>>>>>>> Geneall has >>>>>>>>>> some info about Madeira genealogies. And the personal best >>>>>>>>>> Madeiran >>>>>>>>>> genealogies are to be found in some of our list colleagues >>>>>>>>>> I'll try to find out the Travassos in Pereira de Agrela. >>>>>>>>>> Once I >>>>>>>>>> looked for >>>>>>>>>> them and it had valuable and original info about them. >>>>>>>>>> At one point some a Travassos (from 15th century) whose >>>>>>>>>> alcunha >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>> " O Pequenininho) was the Carcereiro, the man in charge of >>>>>>>>>> Porto >>>>>>>>>> >>>> Santo prison. >>>> >>>>>>>>>> A friend, a nobleman was quite schocked to see him in such a >>>>>>>>>> station. Whatyou, from the noble Travassos, in such a >>>>>>>>>> terrible >>>>>>>>>> >>>> job? >>>> >>>>>>>>>> The Pequenininho had some flourished and philosophical. >>>>>>>>>> answer- >>>>>>>>>> >>>> Idon't >>>> >>>>>>>>>> recall the terms. But it was somnething like: " Alas my good >>>>>>>>>> >>>> friend, >>>> >>>>>>>>>> such is >>>>>>>>>> life that, though God forbid, one day you may be in the same >>>>>>>>>> position as myself." >>>>>>>>>> To be called Pequenininho- - is because he was very very >>>>>>>>>> small >>>>>>>>>> >>>> in stature, but not in dignity. >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Miguel >>>>>>>>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without >> the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRT-MADEIRA- [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I just found a discrepancy on Leandro's site and am wondering which info may be correct...if it is known. I have Joao Escorcio Drummond married twice- once to Branca Afonso (no parents listed for her) with 9 children - one of them being Joana Escorcio who married Andre Pires. Joao married again with Catarina Vaz (no parents for her)...I show they had 1 daughter, Catarina Escorcio who married Pedro Teixiera. Leandro shows Joaos 2nd wife, Catarina Vaz, to be Catarina Vaz de Lordelo - and he shows 1 child for them names Ana Escorcio who is married to Andre Pires (this is obviously the person I refer to as Joana above). Leandro also shows the daughter Catarina Escorcio (the one I show above as the daughter of Catarina), who is married to Pedro Teixeira - to be the daughter of Branca. So the questions are - is Joao Escorcio Drummonds daughter (the one who married Andre Pires) named Joana or Ana and is her mother Catarina or Branca? And is Joao Escorcio Drummonds daughter, Catarina Escorcio (who married Pedro Teixeira) the daughter of Catarina or Branca? whewww...good luck to anyone who wishes to tackle this tangled web ;-)

I have this quote from you attached to Diogo Ornelas de Vasconcelos: "DOV is the son of Manuel Fernandes de Castro (m. 1540) Brites de Góis dau. of Mem de Ornelas and Brites de Góis. Ana Ferraz de Abreu, his wife, is the dau. of Cavaleiro Artur Gonçalves, the trunk of the Ferrazes. Check Castros in NESOS - last page" As Nesos - is sadly no longer with us - can you tell me who Ana Ferraz de Abreu's mother is (wife of Artur Goncalves) Also wondering if you know who either of their parents are as well. Thanks and Happy New Years Eve!! Cece

Miguel, In "surf'n," PA I came across the surname Giraldes mentioned under the heading of "Cochofel," not sure if this is a surname or a reference to something else. Giraldes is one of my direct lines. Would you please take a look in Tomo VI Fotografia 69 of 373 ? Thank You, Pat p.s. Surname Rua/s has a good write-up in PA Tomo VI Fotografia 75 of 373...

Hello Mary, Thanks! Clode adds that the Martins da Mata were linked with the Rodrigues de Gaula, Freitas de Gaula, Cairos Vaz, Perestrelos and oihers . So I'll be waiting with curiosity for your FHC incursion. Cheers, Miguel On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 9:46 PM, Mary Frost <[email protected]>wrote: > Hello Miguel: > > I have three notations regarding this: > > 1) Gaula 1690 879 150v Andre Martins da Mata filho Andre Martis da Mata e > Isabel Vieira falaceu m Simoa da Mata filha of Pedro Goncalves Caxaxo, > filho > do escravo e Maria Jorge. > > 2) Gaula 1688 879 147v Felipe da Mata filho Joao Rodrigues e Barbara? > Fernandes m Isabel da Mata filha Pedro Goncalves, filho do escravo e Maria > Jorge > > 3) Gaula 1649 878 159 Pedro Goncalves filho Pedro Goncalves, Escravo e > Maria > da Mata falaceu m Maria Jorge filha Francisco Fernandes e Ana Jorge > > The marriage record of 1625 877 82v appears to be a different couple. > That record states that Pedro Goncalves filho (unclear) Rodrigues? , > falaceu > e Isabel (unclear) m Maria da Mata filha Joao Martins (falaceu) e Juliana > Rodrigues. > > I plan to go back to the FHC in the early part of the New Year. If the film > is still there, I will be happy to go take another look. Since it was not > in > my line, I did not take extensive notes or concern myself with > significance. > > > I hope this helps clarify things. > Mary > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:11 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] People from Gaula > > Hello Mary > > I checked ARM database and they have: > > Pedro Gonçalves Maria da Mata Gaula 1625 877 82 v.º > > However they don't report Pedro Gonçalves as slave. And if he was he would > be indicated as slave. Even if he was freed he would be referred as > "Escravo > forro"- > > Do you still remember where did you got that info? > > Thanks in advance for any info. > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Mary Frost <[email protected] > >wrote: > > > Hello Miguel: > > I have some data on file that includes your people. > > First- Pedro Goncalves who married Maria Jorge 1649 Gaula-occupation? > > Caxaxo > > Was the son of Pedro Goncalves a slave and Maria da Mata (deceased athe > > time > > of the wedding). Maria Jorge was the daughter of Francisco Fernandes and > > Ana > > Jorge. > > I have wedding information on three of their children, including the > > marriage of Andre Martins da Mata and Simoa da Mata 1690. > > Does this help you? > > Mary da Silva Frost > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:18 AM > > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] People from Gaula > > > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Am looking for Pedro Gonçalves m ( 1649 Gaula) Maria Jorge. They had > > Simoa > > > da Mata. m. André Martins from the Martins da Mata. > > > > > > Thanks for any any info, > > > > > > > > > Miguel de CH > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Cece, The lineages presented here I transcribed them almost* ipsis verbis *from PA - I found interesting that he includes Francisco Afonso here, But I do not presume to know why. Anyway for the sake of the argument he is incidental. The main point here was to establish a definitive link between Pedro Afonso and his niece Ana Ferreira. And between João Homem and Pedro Afonso's 'wife. To understand this links you can also check Felisberto on the origin of the Homens d'El- REi. I may have forgotten to add ( because to me it was obvious) that what PA says in here is crucial for the understanding of the origin of the Homens d'El-Rei. Apparently their name Homem may be linked to the Homens de Sousa, and that may explain a lot of the subsequent fortunes of the Homens d'El-Rei, who came to be a family with a certain weight and importance. Just remember all the pages Felisberto dedicates to them. Anyway no one before among the leading genealogists from Madeira seems to have noticed what PA wrote, in 2 or 3 points of his work. So what I presented here is a real discovery. And that's the thrilling part of it. Cheers, Miguel 2009/12/30 Cece Camara <[email protected]> > Miguel, > I had to get all the way down to Ana Ferreira before I could tie in to this > post ;-) - so now as I am working my way back up, I have a question. > > You wrote: > > # 1 Afonso Pires and Ines Eanes had: > > 2 Pedro Afonso. > 2 João Afonso > 2 Aldonça Lopes m. João Homem # 3 > 2 Leonor Lopes m. Jorge Ennes de Araújo. > > # 2 Pedro Afonso was called "O Cavaleiro" because he was a Knight of the > Royal House, He made his will in March 6 1551. He institued a "morgadio" > and > left it to his niece Ana Ferreira. > > # 2 > > 2 Francisco Afonso married Isabel Cortês,. She was from Oporto, (from a > "escritura" Oct 13, 1542) they had > 3. Manuel Afonso Cortês trunk of the Cortês from CL. > m.Ouriana Lopes. > > This last one is where there is an issue - who is Francisco Afonso?? - or > did you mean to write Joao Afonso maybe? > Cece > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 10:02:07 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Afonso Pires (the final truth about João Homem?) > > Dear list, > > As a little Xmas gift- Here goes what I have discovered in Pereira de > Agrela > that will give a new light about João Homem and his Pedro Afonso > connection. > > > To P. cousin and friend of mine > > AFONSO PIRES > > Afonso Pires was one of the first and main settlers of Madeira. Possibly > brother of Aires Gonçalves he had land (sesmarias) from Ribeira de S. > Bernardino to the Serra do caminho da Aldeia. > He administered the Chapel of Gonçalo Pires (who wrote his will in 1483). > He > was a dweller in some "casas nobres" (noble houses) in Ribeira dos Frades - > which later belonged to his descendant João de Carvalho ESMERALDO, In these > houses there was a high and fortified Tower.... > He married Inês Eaness. daughter of João Saraiva (in her will - written in > 1537 . she appears as "dona viúva"- She etablished a 3ª- The will was > aritten by João Rodrigues,her cousin. Pero Eanes was her brother and Afonso > Pires nephew of her husband, > > # 1 Afonso Pires and Ines Eanes had: > > 2 Pedro Afonso. > 2 João Afonso > 2 Aldonça Lopes m. João Homem # 3 > 2 Leonor Lopes m. Jorge Ennes de Araújo. > > # 2 Pedro Afonso was called "O Cavaleiro" because he was a Knight of the > Royal House, He made his will in March 6 1551. He institued a "morgadio" > and > left it to his niece Ana Ferreira. > > # 2 > > 2 Francisco Afonso married Isabel Cortês,. She was from Oporto, (from a > "escritura" Oct 13, 1542) they had > 3. Manuel Afonso Cortês trunk of the Cortês from CL. m. > Ouriana Lopes. > > # 3 > > João Homem was a Knight of the Royal House, as it is described in the > "Escritura de dote" made to her daughtehr Beatrriz Homem in 1553, He was, > according to Dr. Drummond, from the Homens de Sousa. (There is documented > evidencer that indeed he was, as tit will be shown later). > > He married Aldonça Lopes (above #1, 2) and had: > > 4. Beatriz Homem, m Martim Annes > 4. Ana Ferreira m. Baltazar Gonlçalves Ferreira, son of Francisco de Novaes > and Joana Ferreira (título Homens) > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > > As it is documented that Ana Ferreira ( dau. of João Homem and Aldonça > Lopes) was the niece of Pedro Afonso, it is possible that Leonor Homem (the > wife of Pedro Afonso) was a very close relative of João Homem. A sister > perhaps? Most probably. Or daughter. In any case it seems they were > related. > > Now the claim of João Homem belonging to the Homens de Sousa is also > documented. It appears in a document - "a causa original" between Diogo > Ferreira de Novais and the sons of João Ferreirta Botelho (who was his > brother) . > > Diogo Ferreira de Novais and João Ferreira Botelho were the sons of > Bartolomeu Gonçalves Ferreira and Ana Ferreira - the documented NIECE of > Pedro Afonso. > > > > > Cheers, > > Miguel de Castro Henriques > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this > incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.431 / Virus Database: 270.14.119/2586 - Release Date: 12/29/09 > 07:47:00 > >