Hello Miguel: I have returned from the local FHC and re-examined the records in question. The record for Francisco da Mata Caldeira and Isabel de Freitas 878-270 was very faded on the film. I do believe that the parents of Francisco were Miguel Martins and Isabel Rodrigues. There is a note in the record after the groom's mother's name that I cannot decipher due to poor quality of the film. It refers to Miguel Martins and says something about Jose. Sorry but I could barely see it on the page. I have nothing more to add regarding the parentage of Isabel de Freitas, but it does appear that her father only used one last name and her mother was also Isabel de Freitas and that all of them lived in Lugar de Canico. I was able to pick out another name in the document- Miguel Manuel Barreto. There was the signature of Joseph Teles de Meneses and also of Joao da Gama Pereira and what appeared to be an X next to the name of a Manuel Gameto? There were also two other unclear signatures. Record 879-147v mostly unreadable except for margin notes. Felipe da Mata, son of Pedro Goncalves and Maria Jorge married Isabel da Mata daughter of Joao Rodrigues and (possibly) Bartoleza or . The document was signed by Francisco Nunes Leal and Francisco de Ornelas (unclear). Record 879 151 Nov 9, 1690 Andre Martins and Simoa da Mata: son of Andre Martins and Isabel Vieira (deceased), daughter of Pedro Goncalves and Maria Jorge, all living in the freguesia Nossa Senhora da Luz. Testamentos Francisco de Ornelas de Camara and Joao (unclear) de Vasconcelos, Morgado de Sam Joam. Cura Domingos da Mata, signed by Joseph Teles de Meneses. Very clear and easy to read. 878-168 June 15, 1654 (very dark on film) Francisco da Mata son of Miguel Martins and Isabel Rodrigues? of Canico married Isabel da Mata daughter of Miguel Afonso and Francisca da Mata, deceased. Record hard to read but signed at the bottom by what appears to be Manuel de Couto? The record is also signed along the side vertically in the margin by a Joao (unclear) and Manuel Teixeira (Cardoso?). 878 159 Aug 30, 1649 Pedro Goncalves son of Pedro Goncalves escravo (no forro) and his wife Maria de Mata (deceased) married Maria Jorge daughter of Francisco Fernandes and his wife Ana Jorge?. It was signed by Manuel Teixiera C(unclear) and Mathias (unclear) 877 82v Jan 27, 1624 Maria da Mata (her name first in record) daughter of Joao Martins? (unclear) (deceased) and Juliana Rodrigues of this freguesia married Pero Goncalves (unclear) of (looks like) Rodrigo Afonco and Isabel de (unclear) of Santa Cruz. Cura Padre Pero Lopes, signed by Jorge Monis de Meneses, Baltazar Rodrigues and Manuel de (Paiva?) I hope this helps. The film is still on film here. If there is anything else you need, let me know and I will try to look again in the future. Mary

Miguel, I agree with you. Do you think all of this might have to do with the Cunha case? One could pick sides in all of this! It is too bad that Paulo is m.i.a., for he had a strong feeling about this. It is possible that he just chose to believe Bernardo. Howver, you make a good case. So what do we do now? Throw out the Carvalho Pais? Hope you are feeling a bit warmer. José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:48 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > I am just reading the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy, and on note #8 > Bernado Gomes Ferreira (?) writes that there is acertificate of marriage > for out two, but " existe-mas é como não existisse. Ah good find José. I missed it. Obscure words, he said. Anyway he ought to refer to it with more precision, IMO. And I think that the document is valid, and was all written by the hand of Vicente Afonso, cura. Now there is no doubt for me that it was written by the Cura Vicente Afonso. And signed, among others by João Rodrigues Escórcio, who later acted as testamenteiro of the will of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia, thus confirming their relationship. However I don't know if Menses Vaz is referring the same document. > ..E uma cousa inautêntica" and that's why in Bernardo's opinion Vaz did not > pay attention to it. What do you think of that? > I think that Menses Vaz had a misfired shot. The document seems to me "cousa autêntica". It would perhaps alter Menses Vaz genealogy of the Carvalho Pais (as far as beatriz Chamorra is regarded), so the horrified magister send the document to hell, without having the trouble to explain why. > I guess I am having problems with an Italian connection!!! > mmmm. Italian connections are always problematic ; -))) Miguel > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:43 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel, > > Interesting that the family, as you know, uses Pacheco > > > Yes, for two generations they use Gouveia Pacheco. And with that name they > administer the "Capela" from the morgadio established by Rodrigo Anes and > Isabel Pires.. > > > > > and only much later goes back to the Rodrigues de Gouveia. That is > somewhat > > unusual, unless the other names were more powerful. > > > > > > > To add to Beatriz's parents' confusion, please remember that later a > Brites > > Chamorra wins that famous name trial re: Cunha because her ancestors were > Da > > Cunha from the Carvalho Pais. So at some time we have to deal with that > > side. > > > > That famous trial is a powerful piece. As you know they won against D. > Pedro > Álvares da Cunha, a grandee of the the Kingdom, Trinchante-Mor da Casa > Real, > (he was also Governor of Madeira), from the archi-noble Cunhas da Tábua. So > they probably had access to some documentation that meanwhile was lost. > Anyway, nice to watch, the obscure Rodrigues de Gouveia defeating that Big > Fish. > > > > Miguel, I real believe that Vaz was not aware of the marriage in Sé. In > the > > genealogy, he says that Francisco married around 1540 or later. So he > wasn't > > aware of this certificate or if he was he dismissed it. > > > > I was surprised to see on RTPi that Setubal today was going colder than > the > > interior! > > > > Well, I didn't know about that. For the moment it is a sunny sunny day, > cold > as ice. > > > I am on my 3d cup of steaming tea. One has to drink it fast otherwise it > gets cold in no time at all. > > > > > José > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:56 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > > > José, > > > > > > > > > > Miguel, > > > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among others) share > > this > > > family. > > > > > > Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. Were they > > kindly > > leaving something for us to discover? ; -) > > > > Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar Rodrigues. > > > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather and is though > > > his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage with > > Escolástica > > > de Bettencourt. > > > > > > > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the Rodrigues de > > Gouveia > > > > > > > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate > > > > > > I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a magnificent > > handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The addition of beatriz glz de > leam > > (no capital letters) > > is his, no doubt. > > > > > > > and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it to my > > > personal account. > > > > > > For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is kaput. > > > > > > > Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. > > > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my information, and > I > > > share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of the Leão > > > connection. > > > > > > It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the clues to > find > > out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. She must > be > > one of the persons from that era with the longest name. Trivial as it is > > today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those times. > > It would have been signaled. > > Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". Unusual among the > > Chamorras who never used that "de" > > > > But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the sons used > their > > father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means that the > > Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de Gouveia. So this > > allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with the top > > Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro Chamorro, > FCR. > > Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de Gouveia > name. > > Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible as regards > use > > of names of the parents. > > > > > > > You don't have Brites parents? > > > > > > No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is presented as dau. > of > > Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the respectable > Meneses > > Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to say the least, > > questionable. > > > > But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit that she > was > > the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in that time the > > first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. > > > > > > All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam (Leone?) to > > our > > tree. > > > > > > > They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have known. > > > > > > That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If he did not > show > > it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he had too. It's > > too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a bastard line was > > not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did sometimes). > > Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. perhaps even > > descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the Spínolas. And > the > > Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam link that > > Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. > > > > > > > Bastard line? > > > > > > > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. > > > > > > > The Alentejo cold does help your research! > > > > > > > > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" Scandianavian > > countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). Temperatures below > zero > > in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or whatever, please! > > > > > > Miguel > > > > José > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > > > > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much > > > importance > > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or > > > not? > > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it > > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > > > > > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui > > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > > > > > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The > > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui > > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already > dead) > > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam > de > > > Chamorra !!* > > > > > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added > > with > > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no > > doubt > > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i > bet > > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that > time. > > > And > > > containing explosive and brand new information. > > > > > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do > > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They > established > > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected > by > > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. > > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a > relative? > > > > > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues > > de > > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say > > he > > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de > Gouveia. > > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several > > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > > > > > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > > > Beatriz > > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > > > > > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz > > Chamorra? > > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central > > detail > > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and > > the > > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly > > > existed. > > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it > before. > > > And > > > that, just amazes me. > > > > > > > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam > > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is > > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > > > > > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > > > > > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > > > > > > > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the > > > leading > > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I > > won't > > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent > in > > > the > > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to > refer > > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as > > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that > > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to > do > > > it. > > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I > have > > to > > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their > > > attention, > > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. > > > > > > > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from > > the > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Miguel/Pat I don't what your comments refer to, because these Beatriz, all from the same family, are not the same. Miguel (and I assume others) have these Beatriz in our family line and we do know who they are. What we don't have are Beatriz's parents- the one from 1539. And we still have Bernardo's opinion in all of this. Is Beatriz just a Chamorro and Carvalho Pais (Cunha) /andor is she also a Gonçalves Leão? José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:51 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia Pat, Good find, but for the moment I don't know who they are. They don't seem to appear in their place, the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy. But they probably connect. Miguel On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Pat Corbera <[email protected]>wrote: > Miguel and Jose, > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. Beatriz Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > João Ferreira Beatriz Chamorra Santo António 1705 211 53 v.º > Manuel Gomes Beatriz Chamorra São Martinho 1697 241 43 > > Who are the other two Beatriz Chamorra ladies? > > Pat > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jose Fernandes" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2010 9:21:38 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > Miguel, > I am just reading the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy, and on note #8 > Bernado Gomes Ferreira (?) writes that there is acertificate of marriage > for out two, but " existe-mas é como não existisse...E uma cousa > inautêntica" and that's why in Bernardo's opinion Vaz did not pay attention > to it. What do you think of that? > I guess I am having problems with an Italian connection!!! > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:43 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel, > > Interesting that the family, as you know, uses Pacheco > > > Yes, for two generations they use Gouveia Pacheco. And with that name they > administer the "Capela" from the morgadio established by Rodrigo Anes and > Isabel Pires.. > > > > > and only much later goes back to the Rodrigues de Gouveia. That is > somewhat > > unusual, unless the other names were more powerful. > > > > > > > To add to Beatriz's parents' confusion, please remember that later a > Brites > > Chamorra wins that famous name trial re: Cunha because her ancestors were > Da > > Cunha from the Carvalho Pais. So at some time we have to deal with that > > side. > > > > That famous trial is a powerful piece. As you know they won against D. > Pedro > Álvares da Cunha, a grandee of the the Kingdom, Trinchante-Mor da Casa > Real, > (he was also Governor of Madeira), from the archi-noble Cunhas da Tábua. So > they probably had access to some documentation that meanwhile was lost. > Anyway, nice to watch, the obscure Rodrigues de Gouveia defeating that Big > Fish. > > > > Miguel, I real believe that Vaz was not aware of the marriage in Sé. In > the > > genealogy, he says that Francisco married around 1540 or later. So he > wasn't > > aware of this certificate or if he was he dismissed it. > > > > I was surprised to see on RTPi that Setubal today was going colder than > the > > interior! > > > > Well, I didn't know about that. For the moment it is a sunny sunny day, > cold > as ice. > > > I am on my 3d cup of steaming tea. One has to drink it fast otherwise it > gets cold in no time at all. > > > > > José > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:56 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > > > José, > > > > > > > > > > Miguel, > > > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among others) share > > this > > > family. > > > > > > Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. Were they > > kindly > > leaving something for us to discover? ; -) > > > > Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar Rodrigues. > > > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather and is though > > > his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage with > > Escolástica > > > de Bettencourt. > > > > > > > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the Rodrigues de > > Gouveia > > > > > > > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate > > > > > > I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a magnificent > > handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The addition of beatriz glz de > leam > > (no capital letters) > > is his, no doubt. > > > > > > > and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it to my > > > personal account. > > > > > > For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is kaput. > > > > > > > Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. > > > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my information, and > I > > > share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of the Leão > > > connection. > > > > > > It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the clues to > find > > out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. She must > be > > one of the persons from that era with the longest name. Trivial as it is > > today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those times. > > It would have been signaled. > > Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". Unusual among the > > Chamorras who never used that "de" > > > > But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the sons used > their > > father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means that the > > Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de Gouveia. So this > > allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with the top > > Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro Chamorro, > FCR. > > Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de Gouveia > name. > > Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible as regards > use > > of names of the parents. > > > > > > > You don't have Brites parents? > > > > > > No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is presented as dau. > of > > Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the respectable > Meneses > > Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to say the least, > > questionable. > > > > But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit that she > was > > the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in that time the > > first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. > > > > > > All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam (Leone?) to > > our > > tree. > > > > > > > They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have known. > > > > > > That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If he did not > show > > it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he had too. It's > > too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a bastard line was > > not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did sometimes). > > Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. perhaps even > > descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the Spínolas. And > the > > Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam link that > > Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. > > > > > > > Bastard line? > > > > > > > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. > > > > > > > The Alentejo cold does help your research! > > > > > > > > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" Scandianavian > > countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). Temperatures below > zero > > in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or whatever, please! > > > > > > Miguel > > > > José > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > > > > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much > > > importance > > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or > > > not? > > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it > > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > > > > > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui > > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > > > > > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The > > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui > > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already > dead) > > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam > de > > > Chamorra !!* > > > > > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added > > with > > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no > > doubt > > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i > bet > > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that > time. > > > And > > > containing explosive and brand new information. > > > > > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do > > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They > established > > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected > by > > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. > > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a > relative? > > > > > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues > > de > > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say > > he > > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de > Gouveia. > > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several > > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > > > > > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > > > Beatriz > > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > > > > > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz > > Chamorra? > > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central > > detail > > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and > > the > > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly > > > existed. > > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it > before. > > > And > > > that, just amazes me. > > > > > > > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam > > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is > > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > > > > > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > > > > > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > > > > > > > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the > > > leading > > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I > > won't > > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent > in > > > the > > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to > refer > > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as > > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that > > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to > do > > > it. > > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I > have > > to > > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their > > > attention, > > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. > > > > > > > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from > > the Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In that case take 30 years per generation and you'll have an approximate date to work with, On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 2:25 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > not really because agrella gives 2 generations before without any date at > all. So i cannot tell you the time frame :( > > > In a message dated 1/7/2010 3:05:13 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > No idea about the time frame? > > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 1:59 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Agrela does not state the year. > > > > > > In a message dated 1/7/2010 2:58:39 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > In which year? > > > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 1:45 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Hi Miguel > > > > > > I have the same isabel marrying Andre Araujo. Info by Agrella. Did > she > > > married twice? Was the same person? > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Leandro > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 1/7/2010 1:46:43 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > > [email protected] writes: > > > > > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much > > > importance > > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado > or > > > not? > > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, > it > > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > > > > > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. > Rui > > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > > > > > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. > (The > > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, > Rui > > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already > > dead) > > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de > Leam > > de > > > Chamorra !!* > > > > > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were > added > > with > > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have > no > > > doubt > > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i > > bet > > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that > > time. > > > And > > > containing explosive and brand new information. > > > > > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto > do > > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They > > established > > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, > connected > > by > > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at > least. > > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a > > relative? > > > > > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco > Rodrigues > > de > > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to > say > > he > > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de > > Gouveia. > > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by > several > > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > > > > > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > > > Beatriz > > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > > > > > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz > > Chamorra? > > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central > > > detail > > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão > and > > the > > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly > > > existed. > > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it > > before. > > > And > > > that, just amazes me. > > > > > > > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. > Joam > > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as > is > > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > > > > > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > > > > > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > > > > > > > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of > the > > > leading > > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I > > won't > > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote > the > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title > (patent > > in > > > the > > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to > > refer > > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as > > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe > that > > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable > to > > do > > > it. > > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I > > have > > > to > > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their > > > attention, > > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their > time. > > > > > > > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends > > from > > > the > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > Miguel > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > the > > > quotes in the subject > > > and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject > > and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Miguel, I am just reading the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy, and on note #8 Bernado Gomes Ferreira (?) writes that there is acertificate of marriage for out two, but " existe-mas é como não existisse...E uma cousa inautêntica" and that's why in Bernardo's opinion Vaz did not pay attention to it. What do you think of that? I guess I am having problems with an Italian connection!!! José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:43 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > Interesting that the family, as you know, uses Pacheco Yes, for two generations they use Gouveia Pacheco. And with that name they administer the "Capela" from the morgadio established by Rodrigo Anes and Isabel Pires.. > and only much later goes back to the Rodrigues de Gouveia. That is somewhat > unusual, unless the other names were more powerful. > > To add to Beatriz's parents' confusion, please remember that later a Brites > Chamorra wins that famous name trial re: Cunha because her ancestors were Da > Cunha from the Carvalho Pais. So at some time we have to deal with that > side. > That famous trial is a powerful piece. As you know they won against D. Pedro Álvares da Cunha, a grandee of the the Kingdom, Trinchante-Mor da Casa Real, (he was also Governor of Madeira), from the archi-noble Cunhas da Tábua. So they probably had access to some documentation that meanwhile was lost. Anyway, nice to watch, the obscure Rodrigues de Gouveia defeating that Big Fish. > Miguel, I real believe that Vaz was not aware of the marriage in Sé. In the > genealogy, he says that Francisco married around 1540 or later. So he wasn't > aware of this certificate or if he was he dismissed it. > > I was surprised to see on RTPi that Setubal today was going colder than the > interior! > Well, I didn't know about that. For the moment it is a sunny sunny day, cold as ice. I am on my 3d cup of steaming tea. One has to drink it fast otherwise it gets cold in no time at all. > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:56 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > José, > > > > > Miguel, > > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among others) share > this > > family. > > > Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. Were they > kindly > leaving something for us to discover? ; -) > > Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar Rodrigues. > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather and is though > > his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage with > Escolástica > > de Bettencourt. > > > > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the Rodrigues de > Gouveia > > > > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate > > > I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a magnificent > handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The addition of beatriz glz de leam > (no capital letters) > is his, no doubt. > > > > and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it to my > > personal account. > > > For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is kaput. > > > > Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. > > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my information, and I > > share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of the Leão > > connection. > > > It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the clues to find > out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. She must be > one of the persons from that era with the longest name. Trivial as it is > today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those times. > It would have been signaled. > Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". Unusual among the > Chamorras who never used that "de" > > But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the sons used their > father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means that the > Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de Gouveia. So this > allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with the top > Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro Chamorro, FCR. > Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de Gouveia name. > Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible as regards use > of names of the parents. > > > > You don't have Brites parents? > > > No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is presented as dau. of > Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the respectable Meneses > Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to say the least, > questionable. > > But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit that she was > the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in that time the > first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. > > > All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam (Leone?) to > our > tree. > > > > They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have known. > > > That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If he did not show > it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he had too. It's > too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a bastard line was > not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did sometimes). > Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. perhaps even > descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the Spínolas. And the > Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam link that > Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. > > > > Bastard line? > > > > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. > > > > The Alentejo cold does help your research! > > > > > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" Scandianavian > countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). Temperatures below zero > in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or whatever, please! > > > Miguel > > José > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much > > importance > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or > > not? > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > > > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > > > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already dead) > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de > > Chamorra !!* > > > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added > with > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no > doubt > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i bet > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that time. > > And > > containing explosive and brand new information. > > > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They established > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected by > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a relative? > > > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues > de > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say > he > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > > > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > > Beatriz > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > > > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz > Chamorra? > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central > detail > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and > the > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly > > existed. > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it before. > > And > > that, just amazes me. > > > > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > > > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > > > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > > > > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the > > leading > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I > won't > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent in > > the > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to refer > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to do > > it. > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I have > to > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their > > attention, > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. > > > > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from > the > > Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Miguel > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Miguel, Interesting that the family, as you know, uses Pacheco and only much later goes back to the Rodrigues de Gouveia. That is somewhat unusual, unless the other names were more powerful. To add to Beatriz's parents' confusion, please remember that later a Brites Chamorra wins that famous name trial re: Cunha because her ancestors were Da Cunha from the Carvalho Pais. So at some time we have to deal with that side. Miguel, I real believe that Vaz was not aware of the marriage in Sé. In the genealogy, he says that Francisco married around 1540 or later. So he wasn't aware of this certificate or if he was he dismissed it. I was surprised to see on RTPi that Setubal today was going colder than the interior! José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:56 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia José, Miguel, > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among others) share this > family. Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. Were they kindly leaving something for us to discover? ; -) Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar Rodrigues. Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather and is though > his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage with Escolástica > de Bettencourt. > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the Rodrigues de Gouveia > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a magnificent handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The addition of beatriz glz de leam (no capital letters) is his, no doubt. > and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it to my > personal account. For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is kaput. > Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my information, and I > share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of the Leão > connection. It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the clues to find out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. She must be one of the persons from that era with the longest name. Trivial as it is today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those times. It would have been signaled. Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". Unusual among the Chamorras who never used that "de" But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the sons used their father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means that the Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de Gouveia. So this allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with the top Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro Chamorro, FCR. Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de Gouveia name. Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible as regards use of names of the parents. > You don't have Brites parents? No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is presented as dau. of Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the respectable Meneses Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to say the least, questionable. But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit that she was the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in that time the first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam (Leone?) to our tree. > They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have known. That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If he did not show it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he had too. It's too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a bastard line was not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did sometimes). Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. perhaps even descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the Spínolas. And the Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam link that Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. > Bastard line? > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. > The Alentejo cold does help your research! > > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" Scandianavian countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). Temperatures below zero in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or whatever, please! Miguel José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much > importance > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or > not? > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already dead) > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de > Chamorra !!* > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added with > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no doubt > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i bet > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that time. > And > containing explosive and brand new information. > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They established > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected by > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a relative? > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say he > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > Beatriz > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz Chamorra? > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central detail > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and the > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly > existed. > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it before. > And > that, just amazes me. > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the > leading > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I won't > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent in > the > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to refer > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to do > it. > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I have to > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their > attention, > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from the > Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > Cheers, > > > Miguel > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Miguel, Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among others) share this family. Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather and is though his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage with Escolástica de Bettencourt. I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it to my personal account. Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my information, and I share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of the Leão connection. You don't have Brites parents? They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have known. Bastard line? The Alentejo cold does help your research! José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much importance at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or not? Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it seems that it was not. Let's see why. Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already dead) and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra !!* The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added with the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no doubt about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i bet strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that time. And containing explosive and brand new information. The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They established themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected by marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a relative? In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say he is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. Beatriz Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz Chamorra? It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central detail which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and the Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly existed. This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it before. And that, just amazes me. The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the leading genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I won't quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent in the old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to refer this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to do it. Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I have to concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their attention, or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from the Rodrigues de Gouveia. Cheers, Miguel ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Pat, I had the same problem on Tuesday afternoon. José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 6:41 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Lucas/Pereira Jose, Thank you for the added info that you posted. I tried the bulk of yesterday to log on to ARM to no avail. Couldn't get pass the first page...That doesn't happen a lot, thank goodness... I tried it this morning and it's working, well, at least for me in Northern California. Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2010 9:06:58 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Lucas/Pereira He probably is from the Lucas from S. António. On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > > SSouza > > It must be a slow day!...But as a follow-up, I have also checked the > Passport data base and I found that a Maria de Jesus, whose mother was Luisa > de Jesus but of unknown father (!) requested a passport in August,1912. She > is from Arco da Calheta and she is 25 and it says she is going to join her > husband. Her husband is Francisco Rodrigues Lucas. His father is Manuel > Rodrigues Lucas and mother is Carolina de Jesus. > Francisco Rodrigues Lucas requests a passport in June 1909. He is 24 and is > married. > Francisco marries Maria in 1908 in estreito da Calheta- Book 7582A, page 9. > > You can request all of these files from the Arquivo. > > All the info seems to make sense. You have a lot to go on. > > Cheers, > José Fernandes > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 8:59 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Lucas/Pereira > > Ssouza? > > I was looking in the www.arquivo-madeira.org and I haven't found this > marriage. It probably took place after 1910. However there is a António > Serrão marrying a Luisa de Jesus in 1885- Arco da Calheta. Maria was 25 in > 1912. So these could be her parents. > I suspect that the j. in Maria's name is Jesus. > > There are at least 5 males from Arco identified in the arquivo. I suspect > that they are all related. > > José Fernandes > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera > Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 2:19 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Lucas/Pereira > > Re: Posting dated 01/05/2010 Not signed: > Hello ?, > > A quick search of www.Ancestry.com turned up the following: > > Sailing of S.S. Cretic on Sept 3, 1912 from Sao Miguel Azores to the Port > of Boston. > Passenger: Maria J Lucas age 25, female, married-wife/domestic > Nearest Relative from Madeira is listed as her father: Antonio Pereira > Serrao of Arco da Calheta. Maria's place of birth is listed as Madeira, E. > Calheta... most likely Estreito da Calheta. > > Maria J. Lucas coming to USA to be with her husband: Francisco R. Lucas, > who resides at 69 Columbia Street Fall River, MA. > > Pat Silva Corbera > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ssouza" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2010 8:54:37 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Lucas/Pereira > > Hello, > I am looking for any information on Francisco Lucas &Maria J. (Pereira) > Lucas far as I know born and married in Maderia do not know what village > Their daughter was Margaret R. Lucas > I believe her middle name was Rodgigues born June 12, 1912 IN Fall River > Mass. They lived in Rochester NY and Mass. and R.I. through out their > lives. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Miguel, There is a also a connection to Porto Moniz. José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 3:36 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Lucas/Pereira José, I am just aware of the old Fernandes Lucas, from S. António. I don't have the pleasure to know your friend. He might belong to these S. António Lucas. Otherwise there is a load of Rodrigues Lucas from Porto do Moniz. They might come from the Fernandes Lucas, who seem older. Cheers, Miguel On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 5:33 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > What about the Lucas from Santo António? > My best friend and compadre is José Manuel da Silva Lucas. You might know > him, or not, as he was Regional Director and is still in the Madeiran > Government. > I am close to that family and I knew his dad and mom. > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 12:07 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Lucas/Pereira > > He probably is from the Lucas from S. António. > > > On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > SSouza > > > > It must be a slow day!...But as a follow-up, I have also checked the > > Passport data base and I found that a Maria de Jesus, whose mother was > Luisa > > de Jesus but of unknown father (!) requested a passport in August,1912. > She > > is from Arco da Calheta and she is 25 and it says she is going to join > her > > husband. Her husband is Francisco Rodrigues Lucas. His father is Manuel > > Rodrigues Lucas and mother is Carolina de Jesus. > > Francisco Rodrigues Lucas requests a passport in June 1909. He is 24 and > is > > married. > > Francisco marries Maria in 1908 in estreito da Calheta- Book 7582A, page > 9. > > > > You can request all of these files from the Arquivo. > > > > All the info seems to make sense. You have a lot to go on. > > > > Cheers, > > José Fernandes > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 8:59 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Lucas/Pereira > > > > Ssouza? > > > > I was looking in the www.arquivo-madeira.org and I haven't found this > > marriage. It probably took place after 1910. However there is a António > > Serrão marrying a Luisa de Jesus in 1885- Arco da Calheta. Maria was 25 > in > > 1912. So these could be her parents. > > I suspect that the j. in Maria's name is Jesus. > > > > There are at least 5 males from Arco identified in the arquivo. I suspect > > that they are all related. > > > > José Fernandes > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera > > Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 2:19 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Lucas/Pereira > > > > Re: Posting dated 01/05/2010 Not signed: > > Hello ?, > > > > A quick search of www.Ancestry.com turned up the following: > > > > Sailing of S.S. Cretic on Sept 3, 1912 from Sao Miguel Azores to the Port > > of Boston. > > Passenger: Maria J Lucas age 25, female, married-wife/domestic > > Nearest Relative from Madeira is listed as her father: Antonio Pereira > > Serrao of Arco da Calheta. Maria's place of birth is listed as Madeira, > E. > > Calheta... most likely Estreito da Calheta. > > > > Maria J. Lucas coming to USA to be with her husband: Francisco R. Lucas, > > who resides at 69 Columbia Street Fall River, MA. > > > > Pat Silva Corbera > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "ssouza" <[email protected]> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2010 8:54:37 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Lucas/Pereira > > > > Hello, > > I am looking for any information on Francisco Lucas &Maria J. (Pereira) > > Lucas far as I know born and married in Maderia do not know what village > > Their daughter was Margaret R. Lucas > > I believe her middle name was Rodgigues born June 12, 1912 IN Fall > River > > Mass. They lived in Rochester NY and Mass. and R.I. through out their > > lives. > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

No idea about the time frame? On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 1:59 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Agrela does not state the year. > > > In a message dated 1/7/2010 2:58:39 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > In which year? > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 1:45 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Hi Miguel > > > > I have the same isabel marrying Andre Araujo. Info by Agrella. Did she > > married twice? Was the same person? > > > > Thanks > > > > Leandro > > > > > > In a message dated 1/7/2010 1:46:43 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much > > importance > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or > > not? > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > > > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > > > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already > dead) > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam > de > > Chamorra !!* > > > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added > with > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no > > doubt > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i > bet > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that > time. > > And > > containing explosive and brand new information. > > > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They > established > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected > by > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a > relative? > > > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues > de > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say > he > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de > Gouveia. > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > > > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > > Beatriz > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > > > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz > Chamorra? > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central > > detail > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and > the > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly > > existed. > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it > before. > > And > > that, just amazes me. > > > > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > > > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > > > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > > > > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the > > leading > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I > won't > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent > in > > the > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to > refer > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to > do > > it. > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I > have > > to > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their > > attention, > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. > > > > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends > from > > the > > Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Miguel > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject > > and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

the parents of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia are Rodrigo Anes de Gouiveia (the oldest of this family) and Isabel Pires. Isabel Pires in her testament is called "dona viúva". A treatment for someone who carried the title of "Dona." Bor Brites or Beatriz Chamorra that's the big question that my post is posing. SIf you read it carefully you'll see that she is called Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. The Gonçalves de Leam may point to something but I still don't had time to investigate properly Cheers, Miguel. On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 1:46 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Miguel.... > > also do u have the parents of beatriz and her husband, Francisco R de > Gouveia?? > > Leandro > > > In a message dated 1/7/2010 1:46:43 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much > importance > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or > not? > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already dead) > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de > Chamorra !!* > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added with > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no > doubt > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i bet > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that time. > And > containing explosive and brand new information. > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They established > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected by > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a relative? > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say he > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > Beatriz > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz Chamorra? > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central > detail > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and the > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly > existed. > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it before. > And > that, just amazes me. > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the > leading > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I won't > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent in > the > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to refer > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to do > it. > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I have > to > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their > attention, > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from > the > Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > Cheers, > > > Miguel > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

In which year? On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 1:45 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Miguel > > I have the same isabel marrying Andre Araujo. Info by Agrella. Did she > married twice? Was the same person? > > Thanks > > Leandro > > > In a message dated 1/7/2010 1:46:43 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much > importance > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or > not? > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already dead) > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de > Chamorra !!* > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added with > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no > doubt > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i bet > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that time. > And > containing explosive and brand new information. > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They established > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected by > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a relative? > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say he > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > Beatriz > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz Chamorra? > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central > detail > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and the > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly > existed. > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it before. > And > that, just amazes me. > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the > leading > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I won't > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent in > the > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to refer > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to do > it. > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I have > to > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their > attention, > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from > the > Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > Cheers, > > > Miguel > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much importance at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or not? Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it seems that it was not. Let's see why. Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already dead) and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra !!* The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added with the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no doubt about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i bet strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that time. And containing explosive and brand new information. The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They established themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected by marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a relative? In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say he is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. Beatriz Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz Chamorra? It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central detail which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and the Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly existed. This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it before. And that, just amazes me. The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the leading genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I won't quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent in the old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to refer this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to do it. Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I have to concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their attention, or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from the Rodrigues de Gouveia. Cheers, Miguel

Jose, Thank you for the added info that you posted. I tried the bulk of yesterday to log on to ARM to no avail. Couldn't get pass the first page...That doesn't happen a lot, thank goodness... I tried it this morning and it's working, well, at least for me in Northern California. Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Miguel de Castro Henriques" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2010 9:06:58 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Lucas/Pereira He probably is from the Lucas from S. António. On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > > SSouza > > It must be a slow day!...But as a follow-up, I have also checked the > Passport data base and I found that a Maria de Jesus, whose mother was Luisa > de Jesus but of unknown father (!) requested a passport in August,1912. She > is from Arco da Calheta and she is 25 and it says she is going to join her > husband. Her husband is Francisco Rodrigues Lucas. His father is Manuel > Rodrigues Lucas and mother is Carolina de Jesus. > Francisco Rodrigues Lucas requests a passport in June 1909. He is 24 and is > married. > Francisco marries Maria in 1908 in estreito da Calheta- Book 7582A, page 9. > > You can request all of these files from the Arquivo. > > All the info seems to make sense. You have a lot to go on. > > Cheers, > José Fernandes > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 8:59 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Lucas/Pereira > > Ssouza? > > I was looking in the www.arquivo-madeira.org and I haven't found this > marriage. It probably took place after 1910. However there is a António > Serrão marrying a Luisa de Jesus in 1885- Arco da Calheta. Maria was 25 in > 1912. So these could be her parents. > I suspect that the j. in Maria's name is Jesus. > > There are at least 5 males from Arco identified in the arquivo. I suspect > that they are all related. > > José Fernandes > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera > Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 2:19 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Lucas/Pereira > > Re: Posting dated 01/05/2010 Not signed: > Hello ?, > > A quick search of www.Ancestry.com turned up the following: > > Sailing of S.S. Cretic on Sept 3, 1912 from Sao Miguel Azores to the Port > of Boston. > Passenger: Maria J Lucas age 25, female, married-wife/domestic > Nearest Relative from Madeira is listed as her father: Antonio Pereira > Serrao of Arco da Calheta. Maria's place of birth is listed as Madeira, E. > Calheta... most likely Estreito da Calheta. > > Maria J. Lucas coming to USA to be with her husband: Francisco R. Lucas, > who resides at 69 Columbia Street Fall River, MA. > > Pat Silva Corbera > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ssouza" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2010 8:54:37 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Lucas/Pereira > > Hello, > I am looking for any information on Francisco Lucas &Maria J. (Pereira) > Lucas far as I know born and married in Maderia do not know what village > Their daughter was Margaret R. Lucas > I believe her middle name was Rodgigues born June 12, 1912 IN Fall River > Mass. They lived in Rochester NY and Mass. and R.I. through out their > lives. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Mary, I apreciate it,! Until then, Miguel On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 10:11 PM, Mary Frost <[email protected]>wrote: > Hello Miguel: > > I am planning a trip to do some research tomorrow. I have made note of a > couple of the marriage records we have discussed previously. If the films > are still available, I will take another, closer look. > > Until then- > Mary > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 9:15 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Francisco da Mata Caldeira > > Hello Mary, > > Thanks. It does help!. > > I have a note for Miguel (Martins) and Isabel (Rodrigues). It must be them > > (Miguel Martins must be from the Martins da Mata). > > Does Isabel de Freitas' father (Francisco... m. Isabel de Freitas) has more > than one name? > > > In the ARM database there are two candidates for this Francisco and Isabel: > > Francisco Gonçalves Isabel de Freitas Arco da Calheta 1648 1030 > 16 v.º Francisco Gonçalves Cunha Isabel de Freitas Santa Cruz 1659 > 836 43 v.º > > > The witness or godfathers: Joseph Telles de Meneses was a famous priest > from > Gaula and he signed almost every marriage doc. in Gaula. > Manuel Barreto, is probably from the Barrtetos de Gaula. Probably connected > with the Freitas (from Gaula) as well as the Matas. > > > Cheers, > > Miguel > . > > On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 4:16 AM, Mary Frost <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Hello Miguel: > > I have some notes on this as well. Too bad they are not mine or I might > > have > > more. :-) > > 1678 878 270 Francisco da Mata Caldeira m Isabel de Freitas. > > The record must have been fairly unclear. The things I noted were: > > His father Miguel (unclear) and mother Isabel (unclear) deceased, living > > in > > Lugar de Canico. > > Her father Francisco (unclear) and Iseabel de Freitas (deceased) from > > Canico. > > I am not sure of these two were witnesses or something else but the names > > were clear and they signed the document: > > Manuel Barreto and Josef Teles de Meneses > > > > Don't know if this helps at all. > > Mary > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 9:06 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Francisco da Mata Caldeira > > > > Hello, > > > > > > Anyone has Francisco da Mata Caldeira m. (Gaula, 1678) Isabel de > Freitas? > > > > Thanks in advance for any info. > > > > > > Miguel > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

not really because agrella gives 2 generations before without any date at all. So i cannot tell you the time frame :( In a message dated 1/7/2010 3:05:13 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, [email protected] writes: No idea about the time frame? On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 1:59 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Agrela does not state the year. > > > In a message dated 1/7/2010 2:58:39 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > In which year? > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 1:45 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Hi Miguel > > > > I have the same isabel marrying Andre Araujo. Info by Agrella. Did she > > married twice? Was the same person? > > > > Thanks > > > > Leandro > > > > > > In a message dated 1/7/2010 1:46:43 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much > > importance > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or > > not? > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > > > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > > > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already > dead) > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam > de > > Chamorra !!* > > > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added > with > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no > > doubt > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i > bet > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that > time. > > And > > containing explosive and brand new information. > > > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They > established > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected > by > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a > relative? > > > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues > de > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say > he > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de > Gouveia. > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > > > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > > Beatriz > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > > > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz > Chamorra? > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central > > detail > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and > the > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly > > existed. > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it > before. > > And > > that, just amazes me. > > > > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > > > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > > > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > > > > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the > > leading > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I > won't > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent > in > > the > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to > refer > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to > do > > it. > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I > have > > to > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their > > attention, > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. > > > > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends > from > > the > > Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Miguel > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject > > and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Agrela does not state the year. In a message dated 1/7/2010 2:58:39 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, [email protected] writes: In which year? On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 1:45 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Miguel > > I have the same isabel marrying Andre Araujo. Info by Agrella. Did she > married twice? Was the same person? > > Thanks > > Leandro > > > In a message dated 1/7/2010 1:46:43 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much > importance > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or > not? > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already dead) > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de > Chamorra !!* > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added with > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no > doubt > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i bet > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that time. > And > containing explosive and brand new information. > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They established > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected by > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a relative? > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say he > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > Beatriz > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz Chamorra? > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central > detail > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and the > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly > existed. > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it before. > And > that, just amazes me. > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the > leading > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I won't > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent in > the > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to refer > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to do > it. > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I have > to > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their > attention, > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from > the > Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > Cheers, > > > Miguel > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Miguel.... also do u have the parents of beatriz and her husband, Francisco R de Gouveia?? Leandro In a message dated 1/7/2010 1:46:43 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, [email protected] writes: I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much importance at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or not? Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it seems that it was not. Let's see why. Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already dead) and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra !!* The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added with the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no doubt about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i bet strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that time. And containing explosive and brand new information. The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They established themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected by marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a relative? In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say he is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. Beatriz Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz Chamorra? It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central detail which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and the Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly existed. This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it before. And that, just amazes me. The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the leading genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I won't quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent in the old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to refer this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to do it. Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I have to concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their attention, or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from the Rodrigues de Gouveia. Cheers, Miguel ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Miguel I have the same isabel marrying Andre Araujo. Info by Agrella. Did she married twice? Was the same person? Thanks Leandro In a message dated 1/7/2010 1:46:43 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, [email protected] writes: I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much importance at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or not? Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it seems that it was not. Let's see why. Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already dead) and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra !!* The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added with the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no doubt about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i bet strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that time. And containing explosive and brand new information. The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They established themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected by marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a relative? In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say he is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. Beatriz Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz Chamorra? It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central detail which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and the Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly existed. This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it before. And that, just amazes me. The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the leading genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I won't quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent in the old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to refer this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to do it. Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I have to concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their attention, or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from the Rodrigues de Gouveia. Cheers, Miguel ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

José, I am just aware of the old Fernandes Lucas, from S. António. I don't have the pleasure to know your friend. He might belong to these S. António Lucas. Otherwise there is a load of Rodrigues Lucas from Porto do Moniz. They might come from the Fernandes Lucas, who seem older. Cheers, Miguel On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 5:33 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > What about the Lucas from Santo António? > My best friend and compadre is José Manuel da Silva Lucas. You might know > him, or not, as he was Regional Director and is still in the Madeiran > Government. > I am close to that family and I knew his dad and mom. > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 12:07 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Lucas/Pereira > > He probably is from the Lucas from S. António. > > > On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > SSouza > > > > It must be a slow day!...But as a follow-up, I have also checked the > > Passport data base and I found that a Maria de Jesus, whose mother was > Luisa > > de Jesus but of unknown father (!) requested a passport in August,1912. > She > > is from Arco da Calheta and she is 25 and it says she is going to join > her > > husband. Her husband is Francisco Rodrigues Lucas. His father is Manuel > > Rodrigues Lucas and mother is Carolina de Jesus. > > Francisco Rodrigues Lucas requests a passport in June 1909. He is 24 and > is > > married. > > Francisco marries Maria in 1908 in estreito da Calheta- Book 7582A, page > 9. > > > > You can request all of these files from the Arquivo. > > > > All the info seems to make sense. You have a lot to go on. > > > > Cheers, > > José Fernandes > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 8:59 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Lucas/Pereira > > > > Ssouza? > > > > I was looking in the www.arquivo-madeira.org and I haven't found this > > marriage. It probably took place after 1910. However there is a António > > Serrão marrying a Luisa de Jesus in 1885- Arco da Calheta. Maria was 25 > in > > 1912. So these could be her parents. > > I suspect that the j. in Maria's name is Jesus. > > > > There are at least 5 males from Arco identified in the arquivo. I suspect > > that they are all related. > > > > José Fernandes > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera > > Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 2:19 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Lucas/Pereira > > > > Re: Posting dated 01/05/2010 Not signed: > > Hello ?, > > > > A quick search of www.Ancestry.com turned up the following: > > > > Sailing of S.S. Cretic on Sept 3, 1912 from Sao Miguel Azores to the Port > > of Boston. > > Passenger: Maria J Lucas age 25, female, married-wife/domestic > > Nearest Relative from Madeira is listed as her father: Antonio Pereira > > Serrao of Arco da Calheta. Maria's place of birth is listed as Madeira, > E. > > Calheta... most likely Estreito da Calheta. > > > > Maria J. Lucas coming to USA to be with her husband: Francisco R. Lucas, > > who resides at 69 Columbia Street Fall River, MA. > > > > Pat Silva Corbera > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "ssouza" <[email protected]> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2010 8:54:37 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Lucas/Pereira > > > > Hello, > > I am looking for any information on Francisco Lucas &Maria J. (Pereira) > > Lucas far as I know born and married in Maderia do not know what village > > Their daughter was Margaret R. Lucas > > I believe her middle name was Rodgigues born June 12, 1912 IN Fall > River > > Mass. They lived in Rochester NY and Mass. and R.I. through out their > > lives. > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >